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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 31 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 300

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The Luv Boat - The Campaign Begins
         2. Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs
         3. Re: Some Ideas
         4. Re: T4 shipping
         5. Re: The Luv Boat - The Campaign Begins
         6. Re: J-drives and spewing ?
         7. Read this

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 30 Jul 96 15:38:28 MS
Subject: The Luv Boat - The Campaign Begins

The follwing is the setup piece for a stange mini-campaign I have begun 
subjecting some of my friends to.  Its kind of a "mental break" activity while 
we wait for T4.  Basically a free-form game, vaguely using Travller Book 
rules.  I think anybody living on the planet will recognize the show and 
characters that "inspired" this nightmare.

Luxury Heighliner
Tons:  5000  Volume: 70000             Cost: 628.226 MCr
Crew:  123   Passengers (H/M):200/500  Passengers (L): 100
Cargo: 50    Controls: Bridge          Tech Level: 12

09 Size Rating                 02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating         02 G Rating / Thruster
00 Battery                     02 Power Plant Rating (2x2000 MW)
00 Battery                     1021.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery                     00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery                     20 (30) Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery                     00 Damper Rating
00 Battery                     A2 P3 J0 Sensors TL12 Improved
00 Battery                     10 Armor
00 Battery                     28 Structure

Crew Detail: 9 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 0 Gunnery, 20 
Screens, 16 Small Craft Crew, 10 Command, 13 Medic, 41 Steward, 10 troops.
Notes:  The Luv Boat, err, Luxury Heighliner has TL12 AdvancedCommo, and a TL12 
50-ton capacity fuel purifier.  There are 650 small stateroms, 210 large 
staterooms and 100 low berths.  The small and large staterooms devoted to 
passengers (500 and 200 repectively) are 10% larger than normal.  The hull is a 
Streamlined Cylinder.  The ship carries four 50-ton Modular Cutters in minimal 
hangars, as well as a 100-ton shuttle in a streamlined dorsal grapple.  The 10 
shipboard troops act as an onboard police and security force.  In theory, the 
ship can carry up to 110 tons cargo, but in reality 60 tons are taken up by a 
large swimming pool, a theatre/auditorium and an elaborate banquet hall.  The 
ship has 20 sandcaster turrets, as well as 20 empty sockets.  There is 
sufficient power to operate 20 civilian laser (the TL12 26MW units), and 
sufficient empty crew staterooms to absorb the 20 extra gunners and 1 command 
person this mod would create.

The ship's crew are divided into several divisions

* The Command Division, headed by Captain Crystal.  This division includes the 
pilot and astrogator, as well as the electronics staff and the flight crews of 
the ship's boats.  Most of the administrative tasks of managing the ship are 
handled by the competent Chief Purser, Lt. Hedgehog.  Cptn. Crystal seems to 
spend most of his time inviting unattached young ladies and married couples 
with relationship problems to dine at his table, and wandering the decks during 
exercise period.

* The Engineering Division, headed by a man nobody really recalls having ever 
seen.  He is rumored to be a gruff but jolly old Scotsman.  In fact, as far as 
anyone can remember, no passenger or command crewman has ever even seen the 
engines, let alone an engineer.  Since the ship has been successfully plying 
the space lanes for almost 20 years, there are almost certainly engines on the 
ship.

* The Medical Division, headed by the appropriately-named Doc.  There are 
_officially_ 12 other staff in Doc's division, but the only medic ever seen on 
the ship is Doc.  It is suspected that the other medical crew are quartered 
with the engineers.

* The Hospitality Division, headed by the ever-cheery Juli.  This division 
includes the stewards, bartenders and aerobics instructors, without whom the 
ship would certainly flounder.  Juli is greatly aided in her duties by Yitzhak, 
the amusing yet wise token ethnic of the crew, whose wry humor and wisdom serve 
to solve many quarrels in his bar, yet consistently fail to get him into a 
meaningful relationship with a sophont of the opposite sex.

* The Security Division, headed by the somewhat gung-ho Lt. Krieger.  This 
division includes the sandcaster operators, and would include the gunners if 
they were on board.  Much like the engineering crew, the security forces have 
really never been seen before, but when the occasional piece of jewellry is 
stolen Lt. Krieger is the man responsible for finding the culprit.  For some 
odd reason, he has never actually succeeded; nearly every such minor crime (the 
only kinds of crime allowed on the Luv Boat) are solved by Juli, Hedgehog or 
Yitzhak.  This may be caused by the hiding away of the security personnell in 
the engineering spaces with the engineers and other medics. 


Next Week - The First Adventure:  
The Luv Boat docks at Fantasy Asteroid (with details of some passengers)
(yes, we really did this.  Players who remembered useful details from the shows 
in question got a bonus experience point)

------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:03:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>.
>>
>>For those of you who understand the notation, here's a clue....
>>
>>                             /\
>>                            /  \
>>                           /    \
>>                          /   4  \
>>                         /\      /\
>>                        /  \    /  \
>>                       /    \  /    \
>>                      /   4  \/   4  \
>>                      \      /\      /
>>                       \    /  \    /
>>                        \  /    \  /
>>                         \/      \/
>>                          \      /
>>                           \    /
>>                            \  /
>>                             \/
>

>
>As I recall, the diamonds signify health hazard, flammability hazard, and
>reactivity hazard respectively.  In other words, "will exposure harm me",
>"will it start on fire", and "might it react explosively".  Four indicates
>maximal hazard.  The white diamond is used for special warning symbols;
>radiation hazard, -W- "use no water", COR "corrosive", and so on.

Rats. I thought it was the Pittsburgh Steelers.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:34:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Some Ideas

Ringworlds are a bit far out for me.  I've always had a fondness for
Iain Banks style Orbitals:

from: http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/cs/shock.html

"Perhaps the easiest way to envisage an Orbital is to compare it to the
idea that inspired it (this sounds better than saying; Here's where I
stole it from).  If you know what a Ringworld is - invented by Larry
Niven; a segment of a Dyson Sphere - then just discard the shadow-squares,
shrink the whole thing till it's about three million kilometres across,
and place in orbit around a suitable star, tilted just off the ecliptic;
spin it to produce one gravity and that gives you an automatic 24-hour
day-night cycle (roughly; the Culture's day is actually a bit longer).  An
elliptical orbit provides seasons. 
   
Of course, the materials used in the construction of something ten million
kilometres in circumference spinning once every 24 hours are far beyond
anything we can realistically imagine now, and it is quite possible that
the physical constraints imposed by the strength of atomic bonds ensure
that such structures will prove impossible to construct, but if it is
possible to build on a such a scale and subject such structures to forces
of these magnitudes, then I'd submit that there is an elegance in using
the same rotation to produce both an acceptable day-night cycle and an
apparent gravity which makes the idea intrinsically attractive." 

If the orbital has a circumference of 10 million km and with a width of
20,000 km you end up with a surface area 400 times that of earth.

See _Consider Phlebas_ or _Player of Games_ for more information.

It seems likely that it might even be possible to create an orbital using
TL 15 technology and a bonded superdense "hull". 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:20:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> 
> Just out of curiousity, did *any* of T4 get any playtesting/proofreading/
> blindtesting by any people not directly involved in the project (other than the
> starship design work we all did?) Did someone playtest the personal
> combat system or character system or skill system, for example? If every
> aspect of it has the level of confusion and problems shown by the starship
> combat system, the very-good-but-under-proofread QSDS/SSDS, the subtle
> incompatibilities between starships and small craft (like this radiator stuff)...
> We may end up buy something whose problems rival first-edition Megatraveller, 
> with a long road ahead of us to make everything work...
> 
> Just my pessimistic Cr 0.02

Bruce,

I normally avoid making public, negative comments about upcoming products 
(meaing, things I know nothing about), but you've brought some questions 
to the public arena which have also been bothering me.

On the one hand:

1)  Hey, it's not my money on the line (other than the $ for copies of the 
initial books).  If IG fails, those folks (and Marc Miller) are gonna be a 
lot more upset about it than I will be.

2)  I'm not an insider to this project.  It could be the greatest RPG of 
all time.


But on the other hand:

1)  I have a lot of time, energy, and (face it) emotion invested in 
Traveller.  I want this product to be a smashing success so bad I can 
taste it (sick, isn't it?).  

2)  I /did/ jump the gun a bit and order a bunch of Traveller stuff sight 
unseen.  Two copies of the Traveller hardback.  Starships.  JTAS.  
Citizens of the Imperium (haven't belonged to a fan club since the early 
Atari 2600/VCS days, but what the H*ll).  I'm not wealthy, and 
expenditures like that aren't made lightly.

3)  If T4 is a failure, it will probably change these lists that I love 
beyond recognition.  I enjoy our discussions, and I look forward to all 
the wonderful new things we will be able to discuss and create together 
using the new system...if it doesn't fail.


So....

I hope the answer to your questions is "Yes, we did a lot of playtesting 
of all the systems.  We hired three great, professional proofreaders, and 
we are certain there are no errors in the book.  This will /not/ be a 
repeat of the MT and TNE initial product releases."  

But, somehow, I doubt it.

Please, IG, prove me wrong.  Show me what a negativistic b*stard I am.  
It'll be the first time I've ever happily been fed my own words.

Anyway, like the man said about the possibility of life after death, 
"There is no conclusive evidince for it.  There is no conclusive evidence 
against it.  Soon enough, you will know. So why fret about it?" 
(Paraphrased from R.A. Heinlein's "Notebooks of Lazarus Long.")


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:24:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Luv Boat - The Campaign Begins

On 30 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> The follwing is the setup piece for a stange mini-campaign I have begun 
> subjecting some of my friends to.  Its kind of a "mental break" activity while 
> we wait for T4.  Basically a free-form game, vaguely using Travller Book 
> rules.  I think anybody living on the planet will recognize the show and 
> characters that "inspired" this nightmare.

Oh, man. "Nightmare" is right!  :)  

Seriously, when I started reading the details and realized the show it 
was inspired by, I had to share it with my wife.  As I read it to her, I 
had to stop several times as we were both caught by laughing fits.  That 
was really great.

Then again, I'd rather not find myself running ANY of the crewmembers as 
my character. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:31:52 -0800
Subject: Re: J-drives and spewing ?

On 30 Jul 96 at 0:11, Paul Kestner spewed:

> Quoted from: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>        Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 18:02:02 -0800
>          in: Traveller-digest V1996 #296
>          Re: spewing ?
> >
> >On 28 Jul 96 at 19:44, Paul Kestner spewed:
> >
>    Do I 'spew' ???  What is 'spewing' ???
>    Is that like spitting, but with some drooling thrown in for class ???
>    Well I don't spit, or spew, and I drool very little...
>    (But I always use a napkin.)  ;)

:-)

>    now with that out of the way ---
>    --- on to Re: J-drives
> 
> >     <snip>
> >  And define a major bank...  
>     <snip>

>    And, a J-6 ship is so-much more expensive than a J1 or J2 ship.   Your
> background had best be squeky clean, even if you do have a solid business
> plan that shows you can make the bank payments.

I grant you this...but then again to use a 20th century Terran model, 
you'd best have a squeaky clean background to get a car loan...let 
alone a VERY large business loan, which essentially is what is a 
starship loan would be...

>    After you find >> Fred's community bank on Australia << willing to make a
> loan, you go thru the entire mess again for the inssurer of the ship/loan
> package.
> 
>    There is not some central committee that says yes to this loan and no to
> that one.
>    Instead, think of it as 'peer pressure' on the intersteller scale.

Actually though, with the nature of Interstellar communications, peer 
pressure is going to be less on an interstellar scale...  On the 
other hand, the need for a good reputation in local circles is going 
to be even more crucial...

>    Unlike in the Solomani Rim, where the loan officer had better get SolSec
> approval.
> 
>    <snip>
> >Of course, going back to my economic argument... 
>    <snip>
>    I agree, economic pressure will keep most of the rift-raft scum down.  It
> is that small percentage of rift-raft scum with a large enough down payment,
> and that wild gleem in their eye blinding them to economic reality,  that
> must be held in check.

Actually, any loan officer worth the salary should be able to do this 
quite nicely by his/her self...which is what happens in present day 
terms...

>    <snip>
> >Actually, everything I've seen of the Imperium tells me that they 
> >wouldn't interfere in such matters unless they perceived them to be a 
> >grave threat to internal/external security...
>    <snip>
>   Your a bank manager reading a late arriving report, detailing how the PC
> group meet and worked a short time for person and/or persons under
> survalience because of suspected underworld/psionic institute ties.  Sure..
> It was a long time ago, and many parsecs away... and now there is no proof.
> And the loan has already gone thru and construction started.  Your thinking
> that if they start pulling jobs with that ship, and you become identifyed as
> the money man, that you will be suspected of having underworld/psionic ties
> yourself.  NO... NO... NO... There must be some way to siderail this deal....

I don't think you could curtail the loan that easily once it 
happened...  

On the other hand I could definitely see the Imperium pressuring the 
shipyard into reneging on the building contract though...

>    <snip>
> >The Imperium could probably give a rip about whether a PC group owns 
> >a J-5 or 6 ship, as long as they pay the bills, and don't engage in 
> >piracy...  But if they start buying lots of them, and begin running a J-6 
> >Fed Ex style service???  Then things would get sticky...
>    <snip>
>    True, just pointing out the trials and tribulations a PC group should
> have to go thru to get a J-6 ship.

Good ideas...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 23:50:15 -0500
Subject: Read this

I picked up this message on AOL.
Ken seems to hold our interest at IG.

- --------



Subj:  First Contact
Date:  96-07-30 22:41:22 EDT
From:  KenRoney

At last, I've found you guys. It took a while, but I've
finally read up on all the postings. As somebody who
got his first taste of TRAVELLER fumbling around
on the Kinunir back in 1105 and fighting off bat-
thingies in the pre-Judges Guild days, I'd like to add
my two credits worth to the on-going discussion.

* I think it's great that Imperium Games is going to
support TRAVELLER. But remember, for them, it
has to be a business, no profit, no more cool stuff for
us. They appear to be trying to restart the game
right. That'll be good for all of us. Wait and see the
end results before you start complaining about the
details.

* In regards to concern about the rules, I don't see
where all the emotion is coming from. In my
experience, the best TRAVELLER ref's take the
closing statements in the old Book 3 to heart.
Essentially, do what will make a better game for you
and your players. The rules systems are just a guide.
If you don't like the latest incarnation, use what
you're familiar with. It's a game! Have fun.

* When I heard that GDW went under, I didn't
worry about how I could run my campaign, I looked
at the bright side, now I could send TNE in whatever
way I needed it. Damn the support materials, full
speed ahead. Accept the fact that for a while we'll all
have to rely more on our own imagination and
creativity. If you weren't there, it'll be just like the
good ol' days.

* Remember, TRAVELLER is being reborn, I think
that we're in for an exciting period of growth and
development. Give Miller and the Imperium Games
folks a chance to try a different vision. I for one do
not want a rehash of old stuff, and we really do need
to make TRAVELLER more accessible to newer,
younger players.

*And last , if you haven't already done it, Noah, pop
a fast drug dude. We both know you'll buy the new
books and love them. And I'll get that "101 Robots"
to you real soon, I promise, really.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Ken




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #300
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 31 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 301

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Godspeed
         2. Re: Some Ideas (LONG)
         3. Ringworld, Hazard symbols
         4. Pessimism Saves Lives
         5. T4 Artwork
         6. Re: T4 shipping
         7. Re: T4 shipping -Reply
         8. RE: T4 Artwork 
         9. T4 Excitement and a Plea
        10. Re: Starship loans
        11. Strictly Business (was: T4 shipping)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:50:26 -0400
Subject: Godspeed

Greetings All:

I'm reading a book now that might have some bearing on Mileux Zerox...

Charles Sheffield: Godspeed (Tor, $4.99, ISBN 0-812-51992-2, 11/94)

Normally when a Charles Sheffield book comes out, I read it right away.
However, given my wacky work schedule, I've been falling behind. But, this
one is worth seeking out. It is a young adult book (in writing, main
character is a teenager, etc.), but a lot of fun. Basically a reworking of
such classics as Treasure Island or Kidnapped, it's the story (of a man
called Brady--now stop that Fred! Only 17 days till vacation, hang in there!)
of a world called Erin, in a system with "40 Worlds" (most of which are
asteroids). Erin has been cut off from the rest of the universe by the
complete shutdown of arriving FTL ships (using something called "The Godspeed
Drive"). This happened several generations ago, and people have been
surviving on aging technology since then.

Jay Hara's mother often entertains spacers. She also boards them in their
house on the lake. One day, a spacer named Paddy shows up for an extended
stay. Paddy only lacks a peg leg and a parrot to make him your typical
"Kidnapped"-era mysterious gent. Jay learns that Paddy is seeking a place
called "Paddy's Fortune", hinted at to be the source of fortune in the form
of old technology--including--perhaps--the Godspeed drive.

Could make a good source for a Traveller 4 adventure. Another book that
springs to mind (in addition to the excellent Andre Norton stuff recommended
recently) is Jerry Pournelle's A Spaceship for the King/King David's
Spaceship (appeared under both titles). This is set in the Empire universe of
The Mote in God's Eye, at roughly the same time as that book. The setting of
the book is a planet recently rediscovered by the Empire. It seems that you
can get into the Empire in two ways: If you don't have space travel, you are
under some sort of second class status (hey, I read the book a looooonnnggg
time ago!). If you have space travel--however rudimentary--you enter as a
equal. The main characters set out to give the planet space travel only
slightly better than a Jules Verne cannon! I wonder if J. Cambias' "Space
Race" (Challenge #?) was at all inspired by this book...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 05:03:54 PST
Subject: Re: Some Ideas (LONG)

In mail you write:

> While I love Niven's books, there have always been a few things which
> bothered me about the Ringworld.  One is the relative homogeneity of the
> ring's environment.  Gravity and atmosphere are the same just about
> everywhere (except on the "world maps" IIRC), lighting is the same, day
> length is the same, and so on. So I thought:  why not make a combination
> ringworld and wellworld, with all sorts of different planetary
> environments included on the surface?  Here are some of my ideas on making
> a more multi-environment ringworld, open to comment, correction and
> criticism. 

Check out Niven's essay "Larger than Worlds". One of the more
interesting items is the "Alderson Disk". This is a *huge* flat disk.
Think of an LP record so big the that the sun fits into the hole...

You get real gravity if you make it a few thousand km thick. How you
keep it from collapsing along the plane is where the hand waving comes
in. 

Since it will extend from (say) Mercury's orbit to well past Pluto,
there's room for a *lot* of environments. You can vary gravity to some
extent by making the disk thicker or thinner.

The disk is so massive that the sun will "orbit" it, instead of the
other way around. The "orbit" will amount to the sun bobbing up and
down thru the hole.

Except in the regions *very* close to the hole, the sun will never rise
that far above the horizon, and it'll get rather dark while it's
illuminating the other side of the disk.

As Niven commented, a very spooky place.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 23:53:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Ringworld, Hazard symbols

Dear Folks -

1.	THE RINGWORLD

Charles Collin asked:
>Oh, and one more thing (How Columbo-esque!): could someone please explain
to me the spill mountains introduced in the Ringworld Engineers? 

A high school science class came up with these. You see, the Ringworld 
still has erosion. If left to continue, all the aggregate material (ie. 
Soil, etc) would eventually end up in the bottom of the two big seas on 
the ring. What Niven added is a kind of underwater dredge that pushes 
sediment into pipes. These pipes connect the ocean floor with the spill 
mountains (running in/under the scrith). Sediment thus circulates from 
the sea floor to the spill mountains, then (via erosion) back to the sea 
floor again.

As to instability, Niven put in _two_ big oceans in order to balance each 
other out. The instability is a product of the design of the Ringworld, 
and the necessary stabilisation is provided by the rim-mounted ramscoops, 
not by the spill mountains.

The Ringworld's problem was that people on the surface dismounted 95% of 
the ramscoops, to use them in sub-light ships. This left only a minimal 
number able to correct instabilities.

2.	HAZARD SYMBOLS

Steve Bonneville said:

>Characters who operate starships involved in trading should be able to
read this stuff -- heck, their LHyd tanks are probably marked with it or
the Imperial equivalent. 

The Universal Hazard Profile is detailed in _Challenge #31_. A program to 
randomly create a hazardous cargo is available on the Web.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:19:19 +0100
Subject: Pessimism Saves Lives

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> responded to Bruce Alan Macintosh:

>> Just out of curiousity, did *any* of T4 get any playtesting/proofreading/
>> blindtesting by any people not directly involved in the project (other than 
<snip>
>> We may end up buy something whose problems rival first-edition
Megatraveller, 
>> with a long road ahead of us to make everything work...
<snip>

with:

>I hope the answer to your questions is "Yes, we did a lot of playtesting 
>of all the systems.  We hired three great, professional proofreaders, and 
>we are certain there are no errors in the book.  This will /not/ be a 
>repeat of the MT and TNE initial product releases."  

Well, I proof-read it. Not the professional proof-reading that is, Ken told
me they had someone else in to do that. I _did_ go through it with a
tooth-pick (ask Matt Machtan about all the little grammar and spelling
corrections I sent in).

I reviewed the rules system some time back (see the BITS [British Isles
Traveller Support] newsletter on http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~Ward/bits.html).
The rules I proof-read were slightly different and appeared to have the
attribute points pool stuff missing. There were a few glaring rules goofs
and inconsistencies but I pointed all these out to IG and they said they'd
either fixed them already or would do so now I'd found them.

I would hope that the new rules are going to appeal to both old-timer and
newbie alike. Old-timers will moan a bit about not having "to the nearest
millimetre penetration with my uranium-tipped hollow-point explosive
armour-piercing ballistic capped slugs" but I believe a lot more of that
sort of detail will be returning in FF&S part 75 or whatever. Then there
will be the "roll LOW for success? Hey, I thought this was Traveller? What,
not TNE's d20... but we do still use d6? Ok let's run through this one more
time...".

However, meanwhile hopefully millions of newbies will be finding that the
rules system is sufficiently innovative but easy to use with a spanking hot
background that allows them to run any era and any type of game (there's
quite a bit of text in the book about how the ref' should run the game, get
ideas, adapt, etc.)

There are things I'd have liked to see in the rule book, but like all
things, if you waited until you'd put in everything you want, the rule book
would be larger than TNE's, would cost $200 and would be due for retail in
2007. What, you'd like to wait that long and pay that much? Hey, some of you
need your brains examined!

Anyway, I'm positive about this (play-test? Yes, I've play-tested the new
tasks system and once the players got used to it they liked it. NOT as easy
as I'd like to convert players from previous eras though as the use of
attributes (ala TNE) means people who used to be Gun Combat 5 but have a
lousy Dex might now be worse than someone with Gun 1 and a Dex of 13.

It's a mere month to wait - the important thing now is to pester your games
store to stock Traveller stuff as it comes out. Particularly, tell them to
stock wonderful adventures such as "The Long Way Home" - due out fairly soon
(God willing) from BITS and to be published in the UK by BITS and in the US
by Sword of the Knight (Traveller Chronicle) - It's the first officially
approved Milieu 0 campaign adventure and it's HOT!!!!
<whisper> "Dave, do you think they've got the message?"
"Don't know, Andy, perhaps you should have printed the whole thing in capitals?"
"I was trying to be subtle about plugging our new product"
"You didn't mention about the other projects, though, with our CORE group of
writers?"
"Aw Hell, yes, the complete bibliography of Traveller products and the other
adventure that's just so damned mean and twisted only experienced Traveller
players should..."
"SHUSH! Don't give the whole game away... Come on, Joe and Jo already know
what we're talking about..."
"Hmmm. I don't think anyone's even listening out there..."
"Don't know - let's see if we start getting advance orders, eh?"

:-)

In summary, the rule book should be useful to oldies and good news for
newbies. If you don't like particular bits, don't yell at me, yell at IG and
(given the way they've responded so far to us for QSDS, etc.) they might do
something about it!

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:08:43 -0500
Subject: T4 Artwork

Hi, all,

Has anybody actually bid on/won the T4 artwork Imperium Games is auctioning
on its web pages? $200 seems like an awfully hight starting price for black
and white illustrations...and I'm an illustrator by profession.

On a related topic, was the Chris Foss art done specifically for T4, or is
it recycled? I've noticed a distinct lack of starships that look anything
like the tried and true Free Traders/Scouts/et al., that we've come to know
and love. Do the new ships represent new designs, or are they just there to
look pretty?

They do look pretty. They just don't look like Traveller ships I'm familiar
with.

Best,

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 11:59:15 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:
> I think Traveller could have done with a period of 
> reflection after the back-to-back commerical failures of MT & TNE.

I'm not sure that a period of reflection was needed so much as a long-enough
time in order to produce a quality product.  Given the great rush and nearly
nonexistant playtesting for QSDS, I'm suprised that it has as few errors as
it does (there are currently two known errors in QSDS).  However, with only
a couple or three more weeks for playesting, there could have been zero!
In addition, the QSDS design rules were never tested (at least, not by me or
any of the design-testers of QSDS) with the space combat rules for T4.

What I'm most afraid of in T4 is that it will prove to have enough errors
and mis-matches due to the rushed schedule that it will not sell well.  This
was, IMHO, an error that GDW made over and over again - particularly in the
Traveller line since MegaTraveller, and in all of the company's product
lines towards the end.

> 	A look at the history of GDW shows a whole series of great ideas, 
> few of which were successful. 

> 2300AD was an excellent setting and had some of the best hard SF
> background and aliens ever.

Agreed.  IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had the
materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been the initial
realease, I believe the game would have sold well.  However, initially
marketing it under the "Traveller" name probably turned off many potential
customers (the folks who would be interested in an SF game, but didn't want
to play Traveller) and turned many of the purchasers against it (people who
were expecting Traveller materials set in 2300AD/Rule of Man era).

> Space: 1889 was the most original RPG setting to come out in a decade
> and faced no competition in its niche.

I can't figure this one either - I like the game, and have a lot of the
materials published for it.  HOWEVER, I can think of two things that may
have contributed to the failure of Space:1889.
1) A lot of the younger crowd couldn't "get into" Space:1889 at all.  They'd
   gotten interested in Science Fiction through BattleStar Galactica and
   Star Wars and Star Trek.  Only the older folks (those of us who are now
   over 30) had read Verne and Burroughs.
2) Although I have a lot of the Space:1889 material, when the game came out
   I refused to buy it.  It was expensive, and I'd just gotten burned by
   MegaTraveller - MT was so error-ridden that it was impossible to use, and
   I felt quite ripped off.  So I refused to buy any GDW products.
   Even now, every last Space:1889 product I own has been acquired
   secondhand; I didn't buy any new GDW products from MegaTraveller to
   T:TNE.

>  Dark Conspiracy's only failing seems to have 
> been that it was ahead of its time.  With the runaway popularity of the 
> X-files, one can't help but wonder how such a game could possibly fail.

Poor timing.  When it was released, Dark Conspiracy was just another
"me-too" dark future game [*].  By the time X-files came along, Dark
Consipracy was already old news.  Had Dark Conspiracy been released later,
perhaps in the beginning of the second season of X-files, it probably would
have been a hit.

I don't know who owns Dark Conspiracy now, but they just might want to talk
to Fox TV about a licencing deal.  A re-written and re-released Dark
Conspiracy might just make a good "Official X-Files RPG".

> 	And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?

Several reasons:
1) GDW was (almost) always short on cash.  This means they didn't have the
   money, or the luxury of the time, to do the product "right".  Admittedly,
   no matter how much time or money you have, compromises have to be made.
   IMHO, GDW had to compromise too much, too often.
2) Lack of playtesting and copy-editing.  This is partly-related to the
   first, and partly not.  Playtesting doesn't have to cost money, just
   time (and not even much of that).  At least one review I have read
   describes a product as "typical" for GDW: a great idea crippled by errors
   and lack of playtesting.
3) Amazingly poor sense of timing.  About the only two times I can think of 
   that GDW managed to ship a product that was exactly what was needed,
   and just in time, were original Traveller, and the Desert Shield Fact Book.
4) Some bad business decisions: Space:1889 (while a great idea) aparrently
   didn't reach the correct audience.  And I _still_ haven't been able to
   figure out why anybody in the RPG industry would have anything to do
   with a Gary Gygax product.


> More importantly, why will T4 be any different?

Maybe.  As far as I can tell, the only GDW mistake that IG is making is the
rush-job-and-lack-of-playesting one.  Of course, if IG is unlucky, this
could be all it takes; if they're lucky, they'll get away with it this
time.  IMHO, IG shouldn't be trusting to luck.

> I sincerely hope that the folks at Imperium Games have
> this one figured out, because one way or another, there _won't_ be a T5. 

Wether or not there's a T5, I feel very strongly that there's a "niche" in
the RPG market for a Traveller-like RPG.  And if it isn't filled by
Traveller, it'll be filled by something.  GURPS Space seems to be the
reigning champion ... it's what most of the people I know bought
when we got disgusted with first-edition MegaTraveller; many proceeded to
play in the Traveller background with the GURPS rules.

I must confess that a lot of my money that would otherwise have gone to GDW
went to Steve Jackson Games instead.  Of the four problems I cite above, I
can't think of any that consistently apply to SJG.  As I've said here
before, the publishers of Traveller (no matter what era and edition) could
do a lot worse than to emulate Steve Jackson's company in those areas.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.ahp.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 12:59:17 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 shipping -Reply

>Agreed.  IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had the
>materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been the initial
>realease, I believe the game would have sold well.  However, initially
>marketing it under the "Traveller" name probably turned off many
>potential customers (the folks who would be interested in an SF game,
>but didn't want to play Traveller) and turned many of the purchasers
>against it (people who were expecting Traveller materials set in
>2300AD/Rule of Man era).

I think GDW also confused the vendors with that title. The owner of the
store from which I bought Traveller:2300 told me that GDW had phased
out Traveller and that Traveller:2300 was the *replacement* for Traveller.
I purchased a copy, expecting something set in the Solomani Rim, but
what I got was something totally different. The box is sitting in a closet at
home, never played. Scratch that. We did play it once, for one evening.


Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Artwork 

In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11: 08:43 CDT
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:25:02 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Hi, all,
: 
: Has anybody actually bid on/won the T4 artwork Imperium Games is auctioning
: on its web pages? $200 seems like an awfully hight starting price for black
: and white illustrations...and I'm an illustrator by profession.
: 
: On a related topic, was the Chris Foss art done specifically for T4, or is
: it recycled? I've noticed a distinct lack of starships that look anything
: like the tried and true Free Traders/Scouts/et al., that we've come to know
: and love. Do the new ships represent new designs, or are they just there to
: look pretty?
: 
: They do look pretty. They just don't look like Traveller ships I'm familiar
: with.

Well, I think that what IG is trying to do is create a new look for
Traveller at Year 0.  In 1000 years we can expect the ships we love to
look the way they do.

Anecdote:  I remember when I first got "The Flaming Eye" and I saw the
deck plans for the Garu 200-ton Far Trader.  Much classier looking than
the Empress Marava.  It looked similar, but sleeker, cooler.  I think
that's the first time it really occured to me that the same ship (USP)
could look different without being funtionally so.  And trust me,
sometimes the way something appears has much more to say about it than
the numbers behind it.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 31 Jul 96  9:54:45 MS
Subject: T4 Excitement and a Plea

Joe Walsh said:
>2)  I /did/ jump the gun a bit and order a bunch of Traveller stuff sight 
>unseen.  Two copies of the Traveller hardback.  Starships.  JTAS.  
>Citizens of the Imperium (haven't belonged to a fan club since the early 
>Atari 2600/VCS days, but what the H*ll).  I'm not wealthy, and 
>expenditures like that aren't made lightly.

Oh thank God!  I was afraid I was the only total fanboy around here who did 
things like that.  I plan on using the dogtags to frighten people once I've 
almost convinced them that RPGs are not a bad thing.  Of course, _I_ still have 
my original GI Joe Club dogtags from 1969.

I've been thinking about this issue a lot since Bruce first brought it up (and 
even earlier, when I was submitting and resubmitting ship designs).  I really 
HOPE the rules set is solid.  I have a strong suspiscion that the starship 
combat portion will be the weakest part, and will probably be the second thing 
I toss from my own campaign (the first thing being range bands.  _Range Bands_, 
for heavens sake!  I have never played Traveller with a group that did not 
ditch range bands as soon as the playing started.

I am looking at this a bit more philosophically.  There were two sections of 
the original 3-book rules that were basically lame, and that I quickly replaced 
with my own systems; personal combat and starship combat.  In both cases, GDW 
later came out with a better system that I adopted (Azhanti High Lightning and 
High Guard, respectively).  I know for a fact there is a plan to come out with 
advnaced (presumably better) starship rules later.  I strongly suspect that the 
combat rules will either be something I can modify to suit my needs, or that 
Imperium Games will come out with a compatible but better system later (perhaps 
in JTAS).  If it comes right down to it, I'll cook up my own system and submit 
that to JTAS.

I'm like Joe in this; I want IG to succeed so bad it hurts.  I was looking 
through some old Space Gamer issues over the weekend (garage cleaning day - I'm 
keeping the magazines).  One thing that really struck me was the fact that 
EVERY issue had one, two or even more Traveller articles.  There were other 
gaming magazines in the pile also, ones I did not subscribe to but bought 
individually, and all of them had Traveller stuff also.  This was a very 
respectable stack; maybe 100 magazines in all.  For whatever reason, that level 
of fan commitment stopped, and I truly think that more than anything else 
_that_ is what killed GDW's Traveller.

So, I have made my own personal pledge.  Starting this week, I intend to submit 
something once per month to JTAS.  In fact, I already made this month's 
submission; mailed it yesterday.  Rob Miracle says we have more than 500 TML 
members.  If only 10% of you do the same thing, IG will be getting 50 
submissions per month.  Even if they only accept 10% of what is submitted, 
there would be 10 JTAS articles by TML members in every bimonthly issue.  Look 
at some of the _REALLY_ cool stuff that hits the TML.  The RICE Papers.  The 
ship designs.  The adventure ideas.  Even some of the "throwaway" comments like 
the one a few months back about the fate of Lucan - forced to live forever by 
his robotic servants and tortured with undying agony.  Even some the technical a
rguments that show up here could make good material; the infamous RockDropper 
thread, summarized into a 4-page article, would provide a wealth of information 
for players and GMs.  The bio-warfare stuff Bruce Johnson did.  The 
Majesta-class ship and background history (was that Alvin Plummer?).  And so on.

Look at the Imperium Games website for submission information.  I think Andy 
Lilly's BITS site has the information as well.  If you are not web-capable, 
write to IG and JTAS to get submission information.  Hey, if you're really 
ambitious, ask them for guidelines for submitting an entire adventure or 
supplement.  And remember also that IG and JTAS are not the only fish in the 
sea.  To really make Traveller thrive we need to get it exposed in some of the 
"general-purpose" gaming magazines.  I know Dragon is now a TSR-only organ, but 
what about some of the others.  And of course, there are a lot of really good 
"indie" Traveller magazines out there; Traveller material in those magazines 
might be "preaching to the choir" in terms of expanding Traveller's popularity, 
but support of any kind is what makes games grow.

OK, I'll get down off my pulpit now.  I just want the new Trav to stay around, 
grow tremendously and piss off TSR and people like Phil Pugliese.  I want it to 
be something we can both enjoy and participate in.  Think of this as something 
like an election:  If You Don't Vote (or write), Don't Bitch

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com
Why yes, I do still collect GI Joes too.

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:48:55 MST7
Subject: Re: Starship loans

Stu says:

> I grant you this...but then again to use a 20th century Terran model, 
> you'd best have a squeaky clean background to get a car loan

	Oh, no..there are places in town that'll sell just about anyone dead 
or alive, a car.  Of course there's that little bit about 25-28% 
interest...

>...let 
> alone a VERY large business loan, which essentially is what is a 
> starship loan would be...

	Uhhhhh....Dear Guv Fife got several millions in 'business 
loan'...when's he coming to trial? ;-)
 
> >    After you find >> Fred's community bank on Australia << willing to make a
> > loan, you go thru the entire mess again for the inssurer of the ship/loan
> > package.

	No, insurance would have to be part of the deal...I'm paying for it 
with my mortgage payment.  The same goes for a new car...you gotta 
have full replacement coverage as a condition of getting the loan.

	<snip>

> I don't think you could curtail the loan that easily once it 
> happened...  

	Since nothing's over 'till the fat lady signs the contract, yes it 
is very easy for the lending authority to drop the loan.  Even after 
it's been signed, most mortgages have a clause that states to the 
effect of: "If the borrower (henceforth known as the 'screwee') lied 
or omitted relevant information on the loan application or at any 
time during the closing, the lender (henceforth known as...well you 
get it)  can foreclose in a hearbeat.

> 
> On the other hand I could definitely see the Imperium pressuring the 
> shipyard into reneging on the building contract though...

	I think this would be harder to do than cancelling the loan.

> > >The Imperium could probably give a rip about whether a PC group owns 
> > >a J-5 or 6 ship, as long as they pay the bills, and don't engage in 
> > >piracy...  But if they start buying lots of them, and begin running a J-6 
> > >Fed Ex style service???  Then things would get sticky...

	I don't think the Imperium would actually have any problem with a 
'Fed Ex' type service...the majority of people who could afford such services are 
probably within the power circle of the Imperium, anyway.

	Remember, FedEx doesn't, strictly speaking, employ really advanced 
technology, just a BIG fleet of aircraft and trucks, and a 
state-of-the-art package handling system.

	The USPS could easily match FedEx's speed; it's just that
first-class mail wouldn't cost no 32 cents an ounce, but about
$2.95, they wouldn't cruise the entire city every day dropping off
and picking up packages,  and there would be about a 25%-50% increase in 
air traffic (anyone know how much mail is trucked point to point vs. 
flown?)

	A PC group running even a moderately sized J6 courier service would 
probably get less static from the Imperium than contracts...they'd be 
simply co-opted into the system. I'd suspect that a basic Imperial 
High Speed Courier contract stipulates that only Imperial goods can 
be carried on that run, and PC's with a gargantuan mortgage to pay 
off will jump at the rates the Imperium would pay.

	Fewer of those 'secret' J6 Imperiallines freighters to build and pay 
for from Imperial coffers.

	Now this is when all those 'insider trading' threads start coming 
together...those PC's will have , at the minimum, two weeks to get 
through the imperial seals and find out just what was so important, 
anyway.

	
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:01:30 -0400
Subject: Strictly Business (was: T4 shipping)

John Macpherson writes:

>Bruce said:  
>> Just out of curiousity, did *any* of T4 get any
>>playtesting/proofreading/blindtesting by any people not directly
>>involved in the project (other than the starship design work we all
>>did?) Did someone playtest the personal combat system or character
>>system or skill system, for example?

   Yes, Marc Miller conducted testing with some people outside the
IG organization, finding out what they did and did not like.  As I was not
made privy to the results, I can only report they did take place, no names,
etc.  My source is MM himself, who mentioned the testing in passing in
a post to the Traveller thread on AOL's Game Designer's Forum.

>I know that a lot of people were very excited when they heard  that
>MM&co. planned on releasing T4 so soon after the demise of GDW, but 
>I was not among them.  I think Traveller could have done with a period
>of  reflection after the back-to-back commercial failures of MT & TNE.

   The longer you wait, the more you lose name recognition.  Also, as
people sit around with their collection of Traveller products and no
support asking, ``now what?``, they are tempted into other game
systems that have official support and new products being released.
I think that MM did the right thing by moving quickly to salvage what was
left of the potential customer base.

>I  think that it would have been a wise investment to do some real
>market  research and find out who buys RPGs and who among them
>might be persuaded  to buy Traveller.  

   And for God sake, invest money in advertising.  Consumers didn't
know they needed Coca-Cola or Pepsi until they were convinced they
needed it by advertisements.  Why is Dragon Dice a hot game?  Because
TSR tells you it is (forget the fact that it is basically glorified Craps).  IG
would do well to spend money in this area.  GDW may have went out of
business at basically break even (I won't bring up the Freelance Issue,
it is a moot point now), but one wonders how much better TNE would
have sold if the ads for it appeared in something other than the house
magazine and the backs of other GDW products.

>A lot of people have criticized TNE as being "T:2000 in space," but
>T:2000 appears to have been GDWs most successful product, so it is
>not surprising that they thought that was their market.

   Excellent point.  I think sometimes people get a bit too
``Travellercentric`` (now there's a new word) in their thinking when it
comes to analyzing the ways and whats of GDW's business strategy
and eventual downfall.


>For all that, TNE was a very high quality product.  It combined an
>exciting and detailed setting with the "sex appeal" of SAG raids,
>Vampires, Star Vikings, and so on which might appeal to younger
>players. I personally liked the RC  setting a great deal and thought it
>provided a nicely contained setting  and atmosphere, particularly for
>new refs.  

   That the RC has its fans is without question, but the majority of the fan
base was clearly looking for something else--probably set in the
Spinward Marches--when ``the next Traveller`` came out in 1993.
More people were turned off by the RC setting than were turned on.

>But TNE still was not enough  to keep GDW afloat.

   TNE did not kill GDW, nor did the end of the Cold War, the unfortunate
choices they made with regard to what games to develop, the law suit
by TSR, CCGs, or the departure of Dave Nilsen.  All these things
to one degree or another *may* or *may not* have contributed to GDW's
death (each point is debatable).  Like the destruction of the Roman
Empire, the story of how we get to the fall of Rome in 476 or
Constantinople in 1453 is much more complex than can be summed up in
a single cause or reason (though historians occasionally still try).

>And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?  

   As with the story of GDW, there were a variety of factors involved.

>More importantly, why will T4 be any different?  

   It may very well not be.  We are talking about a company (IG) which
does not have a monopoly or even a government subsidy trying to sell
something that is not a necessary household item, and is usually
purchased out of the disposable income of men and boys ages 16 to 34.
While this niche is a lucrative one that can support a great number
of players, competition is fierce,  and considering that IG starts off with
no market share (only a lot of former customers), the odds are against
them.

   Now before everyone goes off to sulk, also be aware that Marc Miller
appears to have a flair for business, that IG has been very
customer-oriented (thus far), and that companies with less going for
them than IG does have went on to become highly successful.  The story
of the Wizards of the Coast (the people who created those evil Magic
cards), is but one example.  They went from being a two-bit fantasy RPG
company to being one of the major players in the industry virtually
overnight.  So while the odds may be against IG, it doesn't mean that
they won't enjoy success, perhaps a degree of success beyond what
GDW was able to achieve in it heyday.

>As the above list shows, it is not enough to have a good idea, the idea
>has to sell games.  

   Exactly.  Success as failure has many reasons behind it, and if
everything is aligned properly, IG will do well.

>By the fact that T4 is being marketed as "Marc Miller's Traveller" and as
>a return to CT "updated with 20 years of roleplaying experience," I get
>the impression that the folks at Imperium Games are banking on all of us
> old die-hards to be the market for yet another version of Traveller. 

   At least initially they have to--remember what I said above, right now
they have **no** market share, only a lot of former customers. 
Converting former GDW customers into part of the IG customer base
takes catch phrases and words that will draw us in.  The mere mention
of MM's name causes many a pre-1987 Traveller fan to snap to attention
and present wallet, so IG features his name before even getting around
to telling you the name of the game.  The choice of ``Marc Miller's
Traveller`` also alerts people who were not thrill with TNE (OK, think it
sucks) that what they are looking at is *not* that version of the game,
but a new one that harkens back to the original.

   Something else to consider: IG realizes that those pre-1987 Traveller
fans (age 27 and up by my reckoning) have more disposable income
than your typical 16-26 year old.  That's explains why they got Marc sign
some hard copy editions and then offered them for sale at $10 extra
(yes, I'm guilty of buying one--they nailed my demographic and buying
habits--how could I resist?).  They aren't trying to sell those to some
17 year old high school senior.

   The next step in their plan is almost certainly to capture the 16-26 year
olds, and expand the customer base.  My theory is that's what the Year
Zero setting is suppose to do.  Keep your fingers crossed....

>I sincerely hope that the folks at Imperium Games have this one figured
>out, because one way or another, there _won't_ be a T5. 

   I get the feeling they have, and you are correct sir.  If this version of
Traveller doesn't work out, it will almost certainly be the last.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 31 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 302

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Movie plot lifting
         2. TR Tools ?
         3. Re: Strictly Business (was: T4 shipping)
         4. Now we know who to blame! <g>
         5. Re: T4 shipping
         6. Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
         7. Re: T4 Artwork
         8. Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
         9. Re: Pessimism Saves Lives
        10. Re: T4 shipping
        11. Business (was: T4 shipping)
        12. Re: T4 Excitement and a Plea

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Jul 96 14:20:11 EDT
Subject: Movie plot lifting

>> Now that's one I never thought of. Heck, you could pick up one of those huge
"TV Movie Guides" that have thousands of movie synopses, and have enough plots
to draw for the rest of your life. <<

My Mrs. has one of those - Halliwell's I think it's called. Hmnn.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Jul 96 14:20:12 EDT
Subject: TR Tools ?

I musta blinked - I don't get time to read all the Digests. This sounds rather
useful. Would somebody kind MAIL me the URL where this lives so's I can get a
look? Ta!

HWF


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:13:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Strictly Business (was: T4 shipping)

Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
[snip!]

>    Something else to consider: IG realizes that those pre-1987 Traveller
> fans (age 27 and up by my reckoning) have more disposable income
> than your typical 16-26 year old.  That's explains why they got Marc sign
> some hard copy editions and then offered them for sale at $10 extra
> (yes, I'm guilty of buying one--they nailed my demographic and buying
> habits--how could I resist?).  They aren't trying to sell those to some

Yep, me too.  Not the T-shirt though. " You've got so many T-shirts, and
black doesn't look good on you.  Besides, wouldn't that $20 be more
useful in buying books for the game?"  Uh, well, yeah, but ... sigh...

I hate it when she makes sense :-/

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 14:28:20 -0500
Subject: Now we know who to blame! <g>

On 07/31/96 at 03:19 PM,  a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly) said:

>>> Just out of curiousity, did *any* of T4 get any playtesting
>>> proofreading blindtesting by any people not directly involved in
>>> the project...

>Well, I proof-read it. 

...and now we know who to blame!  Or praise!  <g> How'd you get so lucky,
Andy?

>Not the professional proof-reading that is, Ken told me they had
>someone else in to do that.  I _did_ go through it with a tooth-pick
>(ask Matt Machtan about all the little grammar and spelling
>corrections I sent in).

Great!  So proofreading was done.  That doesn't mean there won't be
mistakes, but it should cut down on them.

>I reviewed the rules system some time back (see the BITS [British Isles
>Traveller Support] newsletter on http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~Ward/bits.html). 

Been there, read that!  <g> 

Please tell me they dropped the fractional D6's..2D6+1D3..from the rules. 
Please!!!

>(there's quite a bit of text in the book about how the ref' should run the
>game, get ideas, adapt, etc.)

Mixed with the rules, in seperate sections, or in sidebars?

>It's a mere month to wait...

Hush your mouth!  Only 2 weeks! <g>

>In summary, the rule book should be useful to oldies and good news for
>newbies. If you don't like particular bits, don't yell at me...

You delurked, Andy, you'll have to suffer the slings and arrows. <g>

>...yell at IG

and them too! <g>  But let's hope we don't have to yell at anybody!

>...given the way they've responded so far to us for QSDS, etc.) they
>might do something about it!

Agreed!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 13:55:43 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

Not withstanding the valid concerns expressed by others, I'm excited about
the new Traveller and hopeful that it will be both a
commercial and artistic success.  Just like everybody else on the list! <g>

>> I think Traveller could have done with a period of 
>> reflection after the back-to-back commerical failures of MT & TNE.

Perhaps, but remember Mark had been seperated from GDW and offical
Traveller for several years.  Maybe during that period he *was* reflecting
on the, not failures but, shortcomings of MT and TNE.

>What I'm most afraid of in T4 is that it will prove to have enough errors
>and mis-matches due to the rushed schedule that it will not sell well. 

Valid concern, given past events and how little we actually *know* about
T4.  Let's not rush to judgement here, none of us have actually seen T4. 
It might very well be solid as a brick, given that most of its core is
coming out of CT...we think.  <g>

>...IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had the
>materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been the initial
>realease, I believe the game would have sold well.  However, initially
>marketing it under the "Traveller" name probably turned off many potential
>customers (the folks who would be interested in an SF game, but didn't
>want to play Traveller) and turned many of the purchasers against it
>(people who were expecting Traveller materials set in 2300AD/Rule of Man
>era).

Let me tell you!  <g> I snapped Traveller:2300 off the game store's shelf
as soon as I saw it.."Oh boy!  Now we get to see Earth contacting the 2nd
Imperium, breaking out into the stars, and exploring new
planets"...surprise!  What I got was Tw2k in space. Hey now, I liked Tw2k
and I liked stutterwarp, but this wasn't Traveller!  I didn't buy any
supplements, and when 2300AD came out I didn't buy into that
either...figured it was same thing, different name.  Not so?

>> Space: 1889 was the most original RPG setting to come out in a decade
>> and faced no competition in its niche.

I choked on it's price!  Wasn't it something like $20 for a slim little
volume?  Anyway, I bought it just before taking a trip and read it in hotel
rooms..yeah I read rpg rules before bedtime.  <g> I just loved the setting,
the feel...just hated the rules and *nuts* it was just limited to the inner
solar system.  I wanted the
*stars*, darn it!

>>  Dark Conspiracy's only failing....

...for me was it's Darkness!  I just don't like dark games.  DC could have
been the neatest thing since sliced bread and I'd have avoided it.

>...I feel very strongly that there's a "niche" in the RPG market
>for a Traveller-like RPG.  And if it isn't filled by Traveller,
>it'll be filled by something.

Sure, it's been filled by CT for 20 years now.  <g> MT was a
modification of CT.  TNE...let's not get into that debate again, but it
*did* grow out of the CT/MT background and use CT/MT assumptions. If T4
doesn't take off we still have our old black books.  (Whatever happened to
the idea of putting all the old stuff on a CDROM?  And Digest
Group..weren't they interested in re-releasing their old material?)

>GURPS Space seems to be the reigning champion ... it's what most of
>the people I know bought when we got disgusted with first-edition
>MegaTraveller; many proceeded to play in the Traveller background
>with the GURPS rules.

Guilty!  <g> I stole ideas from GRUPS, Aftermath, Space Opera, and made up
my own rules...and I'll probably still do that even after T4 is a *big*
success.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:27:47 -0500
Subject: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

Question: Is 14 m^3 per Td accomodations _all_ open volume?  I've tended
to assume that it is, given that life support, structure, etc. are
covered elsewhere.  If so, there seems to be a lot of watsted space when
your ceiling is 3m (9'10") or 3.5m (11'6") high.

I've taken two different routes with this on designing accomodation
spaces on ships.  One is to divide a standard height deck into upper and
lower portions; the other is to use shorter decks.

For instance, on a 1.5m grid, a 2.5m high (about 8'2") square gives 1 Td
in 2.5 squares (1.5m x 3.75m x 2.5m = 14.06m^3).  This gives 25% more
floor space to play with.  

This can be the full deck height, or the lower portion of a standard (3m
high) deck.  In the latter case, the remaining 0.5m height is allocated
at 12.5 sq/Td for life support, powerplant (part of which would be
distribution), computer, or whatever.

Similarly, on a 2m grid, a square 7/3 m high (about 7'8", or 2/3 of the
standard 3.5m height) will give 1 Td in 1.5 squares (2m x 3m x 7/3m = 14
m^3).  This is a 50% increase in useable deck space.  Again, this can be
full deck height, or the additional 7/6m will give 1 Td in 3 squares.

Comments:

1	This allows for _somewhat_ taller humans in the future.  Today's navy
ships have maybe 7' overheads, so the above allows for 8" growth.

2	Given that overhead has a significant impact on comfort, increased
height should be a consideration in 'luxury' accomodations.

3	As with anything else, this will be culture dependent.

4	The concept of shorter decks in living areas and higher ones in
machinery spaces is in keeping with current shipbuilding practice, so
makes sense to at least that extent.

Just what we needed - one more complication! ;-)

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:36:20 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Artwork

At 11:08 am 7/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On a related topic, was the Chris Foss art done specifically for T4, or is
>it recycled? I've noticed a distinct lack of starships that look anything
>like the tried and true Free Traders/Scouts/et al., that we've come to know
>and love. Do the new ships represent new designs, or are they just there to
>look pretty?

        Remember, the ships we've all come to know and love are from the
"Third Imperium" setting, around 1100 years after the new Milieu 0. They
haven't even been thought of yet.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:36:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

At 05:27 pm 7/31/96 -0500, mkm@qrc.com wrote:
>Question: Is 14 m^3 per Td accomodations _all_ open volume?  I've tended
>to assume that it is, given that life support, structure, etc. are
>covered elsewhere.  If so, there seems to be a lot of watsted space when
>your ceiling is 3m (9'10") or 3.5m (11'6") high.

        I haven't assumed it's all open volume. Some portion of the life
support equipment HAS to depend on how many people are using it! So to me,
the volume for life support actually called out by name in the design
process always dealt with things like plumbing, ducting, lights, heating,
etc. But a portion of each accommodation included the actual air purifier,
etc. for the person to be housed therein.

        So for me, a 3.5m interdeck space includes about 0.5 to 0.75m of
"ceiling," containing the deck itself, ductwork, power conduits, network
cables, etc.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:02:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pessimism Saves Lives

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Andy Lilly responded to me by writing:

> I reviewed the rules system some time back (see the BITS [British Isles
> Traveller Support] newsletter on http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~Ward/bits.html).
> The rules I proof-read were slightly different and appeared to have the
> attribute points pool stuff missing. There were a few glaring rules goofs
> and inconsistencies but I pointed all these out to IG and they said they'd
> either fixed them already or would do so now I'd found them.

This is good to hear.


> I would hope that the new rules are going to appeal to both old-timer and
> newbie alike. Old-timers will moan a bit about not having "to the nearest
> millimetre penetration with my uranium-tipped hollow-point explosive
> armour-piercing ballistic capped slugs" but I believe a lot more of that
> sort of detail will be returning in FF&S part 75 or whatever. Then there
> will be the "roll LOW for success? Hey, I thought this was Traveller? What,
> not TNE's d20... but we do still use d6? Ok let's run through this one more
> time...".

As long as the underlying game is solid, I don't mind changing a few 
rules here and there to suit me.  Well, okay, I /enjoy/ changing rules to 
suit me. :)  I just don't want to re-write the whole game.


> However, meanwhile hopefully millions of newbies will be finding that the
> rules system is sufficiently innovative but easy to use with a spanking hot
> background that allows them to run any era and any type of game (there's
> quite a bit of text in the book about how the ref' should run the game, get
> ideas, adapt, etc.)

We need lots of newbies.  I hope it works.


> There are things I'd have liked to see in the rule book, but like all
> things, if you waited until you'd put in everything you want, the rule book
> would be larger than TNE's, would cost $200 and would be due for retail in
> 2007. What, you'd like to wait that long and pay that much? Hey, some of you
> need your brains examined!

Heh.  Seriously, there is a point of diminishing returns.  But I don't 
think IG gave it enough time for that to be a problem.  They were still 
on the curve where additional time would reap dispraportionate rewards.  
I know for a fact this is the case with the ship design, as Wildstar has 
said so himself ("one more week, and it would have been error free, 
rather than having the three known errors as it does now").  


> Anyway, I'm positive about this (play-test? Yes, I've play-tested the new
> tasks system and once the players got used to it they liked it. NOT as easy
> as I'd like to convert players from previous eras though as the use of
> attributes (ala TNE) means people who used to be Gun Combat 5 but have a
> lousy Dex might now be worse than someone with Gun 1 and a Dex of 13.

I like this change.  I fully support it, even though I'm a die-hard CT 
enthusiast.  This change is elegant: simple and effective.  While it 
might be more realistic to do something like skill_level+(attribute/3) or 
somesuch, this way is much easier...and still gets the job done.  As a 
bonus, it makes attributes more important than ever before.


> It's a mere month to wait - the important thing now is to pester your games
> store to stock Traveller stuff as it comes out. Particularly, tell them to
> stock wonderful adventures such as "The Long Way Home" - due out fairly soon
> (God willing) from BITS and to be published in the UK by BITS and in the US
> by Sword of the Knight (Traveller Chronicle) - It's the first officially
> approved Milieu 0 campaign adventure and it's HOT!!!!
> <whisper> "Dave, do you think they've got the message?"
> "Don't know, Andy, perhaps you should have printed the whole thing in capitals?"
> "I was trying to be subtle about plugging our new product"
> "You didn't mention about the other projects, though, with our CORE group of
> writers?"
> "Aw Hell, yes, the complete bibliography of Traveller products and the other
> adventure that's just so damned mean and twisted only experienced Traveller
> players should..."
> "SHUSH! Don't give the whole game away... Come on, Joe and Jo already know
> what we're talking about..."
> "Hmmm. I don't think anyone's even listening out there..."
> "Don't know - let's see if we start getting advance orders, eh?"

Subtle, Andy.  Very subtle. :D

> :-)
> 
> In summary, the rule book should be useful to oldies and good news for
> newbies. If you don't like particular bits, don't yell at me, yell at IG and
> (given the way they've responded so far to us for QSDS, etc.) they might do
> something about it!

Or, us wannabe third-party writer/publishers might make unofficial 
replacement rules...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:17:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:
> > I think Traveller could have done with a period of 
> > reflection after the back-to-back commerical failures of MT & TNE.
> 
> I'm not sure that a period of reflection was needed so much as a long-enough
> time in order to produce a quality product.  Given the great rush and nearly
> nonexistant playtesting for QSDS, I'm suprised that it has as few errors as
> it does (there are currently two known errors in QSDS).  However, with only

Oop.  Sorry for mis-quoting you as saying it has three errors.


> a couple or three more weeks for playesting, there could have been zero!
> In addition, the QSDS design rules were never tested (at least, not by me or
> any of the design-testers of QSDS) with the space combat rules for T4.

This doesn't worry me for myself, as I fully expect to make my own space 
combat system (I like space combat to be waaaay too simple to expect IG 
or anyone else to publish something to my taste).  But, if the space 
combat/ship design systems are incompatible, it might ruin it for newbies 
since many are undoubtedly going to buy the game expecting awesome space 
combat.

> What I'm most afraid of in T4 is that it will prove to have enough errors
> and mis-matches due to the rushed schedule that it will not sell well.  This
> was, IMHO, an error that GDW made over and over again - particularly in the
> Traveller line since MegaTraveller, and in all of the company's product
> lines towards the end.

[sigh]


> Agreed.  IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had the
> materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been the initial
> realease, I believe the game would have sold well.  However, initially
> marketing it under the "Traveller" name probably turned off many potential
> customers (the folks who would be interested in an SF game, but didn't want
> to play Traveller) and turned many of the purchasers against it (people who
> were expecting Traveller materials set in 2300AD/Rule of Man era).

Good point. I thought the same thing.  The only difference was the person 
running my local game store knew better and told me so before I wasted my 
money by purchasing something I didn't really want.


> > 	And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?
> 
> Several reasons:
> 1) GDW was (almost) always short on cash.  This means they didn't have the
>    money, or the luxury of the time, to do the product "right".  Admittedly,
>    no matter how much time or money you have, compromises have to be made.
>    IMHO, GDW had to compromise too much, too often.

True, and I can't really blame them for that aspect of it.  I doubt 
there's much venture capital out there for RPG publishers.


> 2) Lack of playtesting and copy-editing.  This is partly-related to the
>    first, and partly not.  Playtesting doesn't have to cost money, just
>    time (and not even much of that).  At least one review I have read
>    describes a product as "typical" for GDW: a great idea crippled by errors
>    and lack of playtesting.

This, however, I can't forgive them for.  As a customer, I am very 
concerned about the quality of the products and services I purchase.  
When I pay money for a product as riddled with errors as MT, I'll be so 
disgusted I won't buy anything else from that company in most cases.  I'm 
sure many potential customers feel the same way.  

On the one hand, you can say,"Geez, these are RPG's.  If the product 
quality is low, no one is going to be killed.  It isn't like we're making 
airplanes!"

On the other hand, pride of workmanship should require one to make the best 
possible product under the circumstances.  If the circumstances require 
that a product be unacceptably low in quality, it is time to close the 
doors.

No, it doesn't have to be perfect.  Everyone makes mistakes.  But if it 
isn't something you can be proud of, then don't even bother trying to 
sell it.


> 3) Amazingly poor sense of timing.  About the only two times I can think of 
>    that GDW managed to ship a product that was exactly what was needed,
>    and just in time, were original Traveller, and the Desert Shield Fact Book.

Yup, the original Traveller was almost as ground-breaking as the original 
D&D.  There won't be another one of those, just like there'll never be 
another CCG like M:TG (not that I enjoy, or even own, M:TG; it's just an 
example of a produt that was so new and /right/ that the success can 
never be repeated).


> > More importantly, why will T4 be any different?
> 
> Maybe.  As far as I can tell, the only GDW mistake that IG is making is the
> rush-job-and-lack-of-playesting one.  Of course, if IG is unlucky, this
> could be all it takes; if they're lucky, they'll get away with it this
> time.  IMHO, IG shouldn't be trusting to luck.

Excellent point.  


> Wether or not there's a T5, I feel very strongly that there's a "niche" in
> the RPG market for a Traveller-like RPG.  And if it isn't filled by
> Traveller, it'll be filled by something.  GURPS Space seems to be the
> reigning champion ... it's what most of the people I know bought
> when we got disgusted with first-edition MegaTraveller; many proceeded to
> play in the Traveller background with the GURPS rules.

This may be one reason IG rushed it.  I've read rumors of various sci-fi 
games coming out from other companies in the near future.  It is 
important that IG beat them to the market.  But is it important enough 
that quality should be sacrificed?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mark Clark <markc@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:36:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Business (was: T4 shipping)

  As the former editor of the Space 1889 fanzine, I can point to at least 
three problems that led to the game's demise:

1) By far the most important problem was the game system, specifically 
the combat system.  Derived from tabletop miniatures, it required a 
bucketful of six-sided dice to generate very non-linear results.  
Although character generation was quick and easy, the rest of the game 
mechanics just bit the big one.  As a side note, there were no cool guns 
(just late 19th-C weapons, with generic names even).

2) The demographic was skewed to the old end of the spectrum.  Our 
average subscriber was in his late 20s (no women, sorry).  This was due 
in part to the lack of cool Sci-Fi guns, but mostly was related for the 
need to know lots of history.  Castle Falkenstein does a better job of 
adding fantastic elements - in a sense Space 1889 was too historical, and 
demanded too much knowledge on the part of the players.

3) Crappy adventure supplements.  I love the game, don't get me wrong, 
and I own everything published for the game, but with perhaps two 
exceptions (Canal Priests of Mars and maybe Sky Galleons of Mars), the 
writting was dull, the scenarios were linear and unimaginative.

  Above all, this game suffered from GDW's background as a wargame 
company - clumsy rules, lack of immagination, and a shortage of cool guns.

  So what does this mean for T4 and the future of Traveller?  Well, I 
think the rules are not likely to be a problem, and the cool guns are 
there.  The big question is the quality of the adventure materials - 
while some folks roll their own, a mass-market game needs lots of 
adventure material to keep it going.  The scedule looks good, if things 
stay on track, but I'll reserve my judgement until the Millue 0 book 
comes out.


Mark Clark

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:45:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Excitement and a Plea

On 31 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> Joe Walsh said:
> >2)  I /did/ jump the gun a bit and order a bunch of Traveller stuff sight 
> >unseen.  Two copies of the Traveller hardback.  Starships.  JTAS.  
> >Citizens of the Imperium (haven't belonged to a fan club since the early 
> >Atari 2600/VCS days, but what the H*ll).  I'm not wealthy, and 
> >expenditures like that aren't made lightly.
> 
> Oh thank God!  I was afraid I was the only total fanboy around here who did 
> things like that.  I plan on using the dogtags to frighten people once I've 
> almost convinced them that RPGs are not a bad thing.  Of course, _I_ still have 
> my original GI Joe Club dogtags from 1969.

LOL!  I felt weird exhibiting fannish behavior, but what the heck.  :)  
Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone.


> I've been thinking about this issue a lot since Bruce first brought it up (and 
> even earlier, when I was submitting and resubmitting ship designs).  I really 
> HOPE the rules set is solid.  I have a strong suspiscion that the starship 
> combat portion will be the weakest part, and will probably be the second thing 
> I toss from my own campaign (the first thing being range bands.  _Range Bands_, 
> for heavens sake!  I have never played Traveller with a group that did not 
> ditch range bands as soon as the playing started.

I couldn't figure out how to use the d*mned things when I first got 
Traveller.   So, I came up with my own system.  (Meaning, your theory 
holds true in my case.)


> I am looking at this a bit more philosophically.  There were two sections of 
> the original 3-book rules that were basically lame, and that I quickly replaced 
> with my own systems; personal combat and starship combat.  In both cases, GDW 

Huh.  I agree on the starship combat note, but I love the personal 
combat rules.  They are perfect for the way I like to run combat.  But 
then, I'm not into detailed combat.  I just want it quick-n-deadly.


> later came out with a better system that I adopted (Azhanti High Lightning and 
> High Guard, respectively).  I know for a fact there is a plan to come out with 
> advnaced (presumably better) starship rules later.  I strongly suspect that the 
> combat rules will either be something I can modify to suit my needs, or that 
> Imperium Games will come out with a compatible but better system later (perhaps 
> in JTAS).  If it comes right down to it, I'll cook up my own system and submit 
> that to JTAS.

That's the attitude! :)  Perfect.


> I'm like Joe in this; I want IG to succeed so bad it hurts.  I was looking 
> through some old Space Gamer issues over the weekend (garage cleaning day - I'm 
> keeping the magazines).  One thing that really struck me was the fact that 
> EVERY issue had one, two or even more Traveller articles.  There were other 
> gaming magazines in the pile also, ones I did not subscribe to but bought 
> individually, and all of them had Traveller stuff also.  This was a very 
> respectable stack; maybe 100 magazines in all.  For whatever reason, that level 
> of fan commitment stopped, and I truly think that more than anything else 
> _that_ is what killed GDW's Traveller.

I've read a theory that what made the original D&D so great was that it 
was broken.  That is, each group had to puzzle it out for themselves, 
designing rules and whatnot since the game was severely lacking in 
elegance and detail (excusable, since it was the first of its kind).  
Perhaps, as Traveller grew and expanded, the lack of areas for unofficial 
expansion had something to do with declining usage as well as the other 
well-known reasons.


> So, I have made my own personal pledge.  Starting this week, I intend to submit 
> something once per month to JTAS.  In fact, I already made this month's 
> submission; mailed it yesterday.  Rob Miracle says we have more than 500 TML 
> members.  If only 10% of you do the same thing, IG will be getting 50 
> submissions per month.  Even if they only accept 10% of what is submitted, 
> there would be 10 JTAS articles by TML members in every bimonthly issue.  Look 
> at some of the _REALLY_ cool stuff that hits the TML.  The RICE Papers.  The 
> ship designs.  The adventure ideas.  Even some of the "throwaway" comments like 
> the one a few months back about the fate of Lucan - forced to live forever by 
> his robotic servants and tortured with undying agony.  Even some the technical a
> rguments that show up here could make good material; the infamous RockDropper 
> thread, summarized into a 4-page article, would provide a wealth of information 
> for players and GMs.  The bio-warfare stuff Bruce Johnson did.  The 
> Majesta-class ship and background history (was that Alvin Plummer?).  And so on.

Good points, all.  I'm certainly willing to submit material once I have 
the game in my hands.


> OK, I'll get down off my pulpit now.  I just want the new Trav to stay around, 
> grow tremendously and piss off TSR and people like Phil Pugliese.  I want it to 
> be something we can both enjoy and participate in.  Think of this as something 
> like an election:  If You Don't Vote (or write), Don't Bitch

Another good point....


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 1 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 303

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
         2. Unplugged
         3. The NEW Traveller
         4. Re: T4 shipping
         5. Re: Traveller 1965: Rockets
         6. Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 19:38:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

On 07/31/96 at 05:36 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        So for me, a 3.5m interdeck space includes about 0.5 to 0.75m of
>"ceiling," containing the deck itself, ductwork, power conduits, network
>cables, etc.

That little?  How does the crew get around up there for repairs and
maintenance?

In most areas I divide the headspace into a ~2.5m ceiling and an ~1m
crawlspace.  The crawlspace contains the conduits, ductwork, cabling,
gravtic modules for the floor above, various equipment, and enough
headspace for someone to crawl around doing repairs and maintenance.  My
Engineers and Techs spend a good bit of time crawling around between decks
in what I call "The Overhead." <g>

In engineering and cargo holes I go with much higher overheads to
accommodate equipment and cargo.  I try to design Cargo holes, for example,
as having 6m ceilings with the 1 meter crawlspace overhead. This gives you
2Td/square in cargo holes.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Unplugged

I'm reverting to a TL 6 lifestyle for the next two weeks, as I set my 
watch back 20 years and attend my high school reunion in Boise, Idaho.  
I'm not bringing a laptop, and I'm staying with my parents.  I'll give 
you a full report on culture shock and internet withdrawal when I 
return.  I'm sure that I'll be drawing on these experiences in playing 
and refereeing Traveller.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:46:07 +0100
Subject: The NEW Traveller

Steve Charlton ("T4 Excitement and a Plea"):

>Oh thank God!  I was afraid I was the only total fanboy around here who did

Hmmm. I hate to pay out money for something as vague as a fan club; but then
I looked at a collectible figures club I'm a member of and realised I was
paying about the same for that each year. Hmmm. It's still a difficult
decision to actually pull out my wallet.

>...I really 
>HOPE the rules set is solid.  I have a strong suspiscion that the starship 
>combat portion will be the weakest part, and will probably be the second thing 
>I toss from my own campaign (the first thing being range bands.  _Range
Bands_, 
>for heavens sake!  I have never played Traveller with a group that did not 
>ditch range bands as soon as the playing started.

Range bands are in. Yes, I sent in a fairly heavy hint that this was a
retrograde step - I mean even a 12-15 year old can work out that if a gun
has a range of X metres then that's Y squares on this floorplan map, etc.

Now frankly, I've never been much of a starship combat man. In my games
getting your ship hit by a big laser isn't just a "OOops! There's that Man
Drive -1 again! Or Crew -1: ok guys, rolls dice, whoever gets lowest is dead
- - no, no second chance..." Space combat is so deadly (and so EXPENSIVE -
that Man Drive -1 probably just knocked 5-10 MILLION credits of drive off
your ship). Secondly, very few people I've met understand how craft really
move in space (unless they used to play the old "Asteroids" game, of
course!). So all in all, having a notably simple space combat system with a
few range bands isn't too bad in my books.

Frankly, I don't worry too much about such mechanics anyway - everything is
done for dramatic effect because that's what keeps the players interested.

i.e. NOT:

"Hey, I rolled Man Drive -1: you guys can only go half as fast now"

but instead:

"The bad guy's laser slices through space - for a fraction of a second the
Violence is Golden (tm)(c)1980-1996 veers away but then there's a heavy
crump resounding through the ship <rolls to see exactly where it hit: gets
Man Drive -1>. The Violence lurches, rolls sideways - power plant levels are
fluctuating wildly, internal sensors indicate a drastic pressure loss in the
engineering area, the internal camera shows you molten metal splattered
across the floor with automatic sealant bubbling around a jagged rip in the
aft bulkhead and fire-control sprays starting to obscure the view. Septimus
- - roll a Difficult Pilot roll to regain control." <looks across table at the
15mm deckplans and figures> "By the way, whose figure is that in the
engineering area of the Violence deckplan?" <one player looks particularly
worried - perhaps this is going to be a Crew -1 hit as well!>

Now, none of the above is in any of the rules, whether you're looking at CT,
MT, TNE or the new Traveller - it's just how you portray it to the players
that's important!

>...personal combat and starship combat.  In both cases, GDW 
>later came out with a better system that I adopted

The beauty of the situation is that if you don't like everything in the new
rules, you now have 3 other rule sets and God knows how many supplements
with which to substitute your preferred rules. PLUS IG will be putting out
more advanced rules later.

>I know for a fact there is a plan to come out with 
>advnaced (presumably better) starship rules later.

I'm praying that this will be on time for us (BITS) to demo at Euro GEN CON
(it's supposed to be at GEN CON itself). I need to chase Ken on this one!

>I'm like Joe in this; I want IG to succeed so bad it hurts.

Yup.

>So, I have made my own personal pledge.  Starting this week, I intend to
submit 
>something once per month to JTAS....And remember also that IG and JTAS are not
>the only fish in the sea....

Yes, long live the Traveller Chronicle and Signal-GK, both of whom have
continued to produce good Traveller stuff even when GDW had gone down the
drain. That's dedication, eh?

Then in response to my:
>>Well, I proof-read it. 
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:
>...and now we know who to blame!  Or praise!  <g> How'd you get so lucky,
Andy?

I've been pestering Ken Whitman since I first heard (through some TSR
contacts) that he was looking for investors to set up IG. I told him what I
was trying to do with BITS and he was very interested and things have gone
on since then. e.g. BITS has bought a small pile of signed MM Traveller
books for its members, and I've been able to review the rules from an early
stage because Ken and I have been discussing them on the telephone. I'm not
really "on the inside" as I've not written anything for IG (except some
suggested inserts for the rules when I proof-read them) but our informal
contact seems to work out well. I pass as much as I can on to BITS members,
although some of the stuff Ken tells me is commercially sensitive so I don't
mention that.

>Please tell me they dropped the fractional D6's..2D6+1D3..from the rules. 
>Please!!!

I _think_ they're still in. I found in play-testing (and told Ken) that you
don't really seem to need them; 2, 3 or 4 d6 seem to work fine. Then there
are the lucky players who always succeed in rolling low on 4d6 so they get
to use 5 or 6 dice!

>>(there's quite a bit of text in the book about how the ref' should run the
>>game, get ideas, adapt, etc.)
>Mixed with the rules, in seperate sections, or in sidebars?

Separate section at the back plus a few bits integrated with the rules.

>>It's a mere month to wait...
>Hush your mouth!  Only 2 weeks! <g>
Doesn't time fly!

>>newbies. If you don't like particular bits, don't yell at me...
>You delurked, Andy, you'll have to suffer the slings and arrows. <g>
However, if anyone wants to throw suggestions for rules supplements or
anything else that IG doesn't currently have covered on its proposed product
schedule then I'll be glad to throw them into the CORE writers arena and see
which ideas make it out alive - possibly into print, even!

Re delurking, well I've not even bothered to catch up with the postings
prior to a few days ago - I've got too many other things to do including a
_proper_ job!

And Joe Walsh later commented:
>This may be one reason IG rushed it.  I've read rumors of various sci-fi 
>games coming out from other companies in the near future.  It is 
>important that IG beat them to the market.  But is it important enough 
>that quality should be sacrificed?

Babylon 5, for example. Now that game is guaranteed to sell like hot cakes.
If only Traveller had an equivalent... perhaps a movie? ;-)

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:02:44 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

> (I like space combat to be waaaay too simple to expect IG 
> or anyone else to publish something to my taste).

  Have you looked at 'Slag!'?

  (Although IMHO it isn't such a good fit with Traveller, Greg's Gazelle
notwithstanding. Streamlining or not has a greater effect on performance
than jump or not, for example)

> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:29:33 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller 1965: Rockets

In mail you write:

> On 07/29/96 at 10:17 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>Nope, you use hydrogen as reaction mass, because it gives the best specific
>>impulse, due to the lower molecular weight. 
>
> Sure, when you can afford it, when you can get it, when you can
> handle it, when you can store it.  <g> I sort of think the
> suggestion for water was to lower the cost..it certainly would lower the
> thrust/weight ratio, in the real world.

If you can get water, you can get hydrogen. And the main reason for
using it is that it doesn't react with the graphite in the reactor even
at operating temperatures. Nor does it react to any great extent with
the rest of the motor. Water is *notorious* for being corrosive when
exposed to a high radiation flux. I rather suspect that if ammonia
isn't much the same, it'll turn out tbreak down at the operating
temperatures, which complicates things a lot.

>>Check out the NERVA program.  That produced a workable rocket motor
>>using a graphite core reactor and liquid hydrogen as fuel.  And the
>>design wasn't that different from the 50s designs for such.
>
> I seem to recall that there was another competing design that was never
> built, codenamed DUMBO, that used a micro-hole layout in the core as..I
> think..an energy exchanger.  The DUMBO design would have produced much higher
> thrust to weight with less of radiation problem. Its problem was that nobody
> had ever built anything like it, and NASA/DOD didn't want to risk it when
> they *knew* NERVA would work.

The NERVA designs I saw all consisted of a "solid" block of graphite
and fuel pellets, with a hundred or more holes passing thru from the
front to the back. The holes were laid out in a honeycomb pattern. The
front was were the fuel pumps dumped the hydrogen. The back was where
the exhaust nozzle assembly was. The superheated hydrogen comes boiling
out of the reactor, hits the converging nozzle section and due to the
pressure behind it, it speeds up as the nozzle converges. It is going
faster, and getting compressed like crazy. At the narrowest point of
the nozzle, it hits the speed of sound (whatever that may be in
hydrogen that hot and dense). Then the nozzle widens. The rate at which
it widens is carefully calculated to make the exhaust expand at a
specific rate. At the point the nozzle ends you've got the exhaust at
pretty close to ambient pressure. You don't take it all the way because
there are diminishing returns as the nozzle gets longer/wider.

The result is a *supersonic* exhaust. You've converted a *lot* of the
random motions due to all the heat and pressure inside the motor into
*directed* motion.

>>With a little work, you could probably make a version that could handle
>>things like ammonia, water, and methane. Only problem is that the nozzle
>>shape would have to be a compromise, and thus it wouldn't be near as
>>efficient as a motor designed exclusively for any one of them. But the
>>flexibility would be useful in the outer system.
>
> I've wondered about that.  The nozzle doesn't *have* to be fixed, does it? 
> Can't it be designed to conform to variable geometries? I'm fuzzy today, but
> don't the MSE's already vary nozzle geometries during assent?

Nope. Or if they do, they don't do it by much. As you can see from the
above, the performance of a rocket depends on the chamber pressure
going into the nozzle, the makeup of the exhaust, and the pressure
outside the nozzle. That last item determines part of the efficiency,
as you can only expand the exhaust until it gets near atmospheric
pressure. 

They may be able to "pull back" part of the end of the nozzle ( asort
of shroud) that'd help performance a little. But the *rate* at which
the nozzle contracts, how far it contracts, aand the rate at which it
expands are fuel specific.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:59:56 PST
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>Which brings up the fun of players accepting a shipment of industrial
>>chemicals, or some such, without reading the fine print....
>>
>>For those of you who understand the notation, here's a clue....
>>
>>                             /\
>>                            /  \
>>                           /    \
>>                          /   4  \
>>                         /\      /\
>>                        /  \    /  \
>>                       /    \  /    \
>>                      /   4  \/   4  \
>>                      \      /\      /
>>                       \    /  \    /
>>                        \  /    \  /
>>                         \/      \/
>>                          \      /
>>                           \    /
>>                            \  /
>>                             \/
>
> Oh, man.  For those of you who are trying to puzzle this out, but have
> probably already guessed:
>
> The left diamond is blue.  The top diamond is red.  The right diamond is
> yellow.  The bottom diamond is white.  These are found on buildings, doors,
> and storage tanks to let fire-fighters, among others, know just what is 
> in the area.  
>
> As I recall, the diamonds signify health hazard, flammability hazard, and
> reactivity hazard respectively.  In other words, "will exposure harm me",
> "will it start on fire", and "might it react explosively".  Four indicates 
> maximal hazard.  The white diamond is used for special warning symbols; 
> radiation hazard, -W- "use no water", COR "corrosive", and so on.

Right. So, just to add insult to injury, imagine the shipment had all
three in the bottom diamond. :-)

> This designates a deadly health hazard that has a very low flash point and
> that's unstable enough that it might detonate if the moons are in the 
> wrong phases. 

Or to put it another way, UPS wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Fed-EX would laugh in your Face, the post office would likely have you
arrested as a terrorist for bringing it into the building. (When I
first got my copy of the handbook listing this stuff, I looked to see
if they listed anything rated 4-4-4. Much to my surprise, there were
something like 5 listed. And to be listed it has to be something used
industrially!) 

> Characters who operate starships involved in trading should be able to read
> this stuff -- heck, their LHyd tanks are probably marked with it or the
> Imperial equivalent.  

It depends. Have they been doing this for a while, or are they the
equivalent of someone who just finished trucking school, and managed to
buy his own rig?

Even if they are experienced, if they didn't read the contract
carefully they could wind up with a choice between hauling it, or
paying a penalty fee that'll break them.

And never underestimate shippers. I have a friend who used to drive a
truck for a local outfit. He got told to drive a truck (already loaded)
to a local quarry on a hot summer day. Part way there, he got flagged
down by a driver who said that there was something leaking from the
truck. So jim thanked him and walked back to check the cargo (they
hadn't told him what it was).

He opens the doors on the back and is confronted by a couple dozen
cases of dynamite, all "sweating". It gets *hot* inside a truck parked
in the sun.

He closed the doors *gently*, and then drove *very* carefully the
remaining mile or so to the quarry. He parked the truck as far from
everything else as he could, asked someone where the "powder monkey"
was and handed him the keys to the truck (along with a "It's *your*
problem now" type comment). He hitched a ride back into town, handed in
the signed recipt for the cargo, told his boss that he'd left the truck
at the quarry, and then decked him. Then he went over to payroll and
told them he was quitting and wanted his pay *now*...


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 1 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 304

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 shipping
         2. Re: T4 shipping
         3. Adventure Seed
         4. Group One CT products any good?
         5. Re: Group One CT products any good?
         6. Traveller 1965
         7. Space 1889, and Rulebooks
         8. hazard symbol bandwidth waste
         9. Alternate rank names
        10. Re: Alternate rank names
        11. Re: Alternate rank names
        12. Re: T4 shipping
        13. Shadis issue 27
        14. Re: The NEW Traveller
        15. Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
        16. Re: Adventure Seed
        17. Re: Adventure Seed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:01:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Bertil Jonell wrote:

> > (I like space combat to be waaaay too simple to expect IG 
> > or anyone else to publish something to my taste).
> 
>   Have you looked at 'Slag!'?

No, I've never even heard of it.  Who publishes it?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:17:56 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

> On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Bertil Jonell wrote:
> 
> > > (I like space combat to be waaaay too simple to expect IG 
> > > or anyone else to publish something to my taste).
> > 
> >   Have you looked at 'Slag!'?
> 
> No, I've never even heard of it.  Who publishes it?

  BTRC.

  There's a very short description at:

  http://members.aol.com/btrc/web_files/html/catalog.htm#Slag!
 
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 09:29:51 -0400
Subject: Adventure Seed

Here's a few news items that might be useful for Traveller referees.
Both are from the latest issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology.

1) The loss of Ariane 5 was caused by a software error in the intertial
   guidance units.  The units had been used in Ariane 4 without problems,
   and were installed in the new rocket without modification.

   The problem turns out to be twofold: A calculation which is needed when
   the rocket is on the ground was continued in flight for 40 seconds (the
   data is not needed or used in flight).  During this 40 seconds, the
   value overflowed (became too large for to calculate), causing an error
   indication.

   The error indication was assumed to be a hardware failure, and the
   guidance unit was automatically taken off-line (and began sending
   diagnostic data to the flight controls, instead of guidance data).  The
   backup guidance unit was identical, and failed in an identical fashion
   slightly before the main unit.

   The value never overflowed when the units were used in Ariane 4 because
   the older rocket flew a different trajectory (which kept the values
   within bounds for the first 40 seconds of flight).  Because the unit
   worked in a large number of Ariane 4 flights, it wasn't extensivelu
   tested for Ariane 5.

2) An Airbus plane being flown by Chineese pilots was lost due to the
   combination of poor training and software faults.  At low altitude in
   a landing, the co-pilot accidentally triggered the automatic throttle's
   "go-around" lever (this causes the throttle and autopilot to perform an
   automatic abort so that the plane can go around and try landing again.

   The pilot instructed the co-pilot to disengage the automatic throttle,
   and - since the plane was now off the glide-slope for landing - engage
   the automatic pilot to get back on glide-slope.

   The automatic pilot was in "go-around" mode (because the lever was hit
   by the co-pilot).  As the plane's nose came higher and higher (for the
   go-around) the pilot and co-pilot began fighting the autopilot.  As they
   pushed the nose down with the elevator, the autopilot brought it up with
   the trim controls.  Eventually, the aircraft stalled at low altitude.

   Almost any other aircraft would not have crashed in this condition; they
   automatically disengage the autopilot when the pilot moves the controls
   a significant amount.  The Airbus doesn't, on the theory that the pilot
   might accidentally move the control column during an automatic landing
   and cause a crash.  The Airbus also doesn't have a warning when the
   autopilot adjusts the trim.
   

How does this apply to Traveller?  Well, item 1 could apply to almost any
piece of computer-controlled gadgetry (even gadgetry that worked fine
before, as in this example) on a new starship, or when any ship is operated
in conditions that it's designers never experienced.

Item 2 could certainly apply to high-tech spacecraft, where (as in the
Airbus) the autopilot's programmers think they know better than the pilot
does what the aircraft should be doing.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:30:31 +0100
Subject: Group One CT products any good?

Hi,

I'm thinking of buying some old traveller books produced by
Group One - does anyone know if they're worth having. I got
some Judges Guild Traveller supplements last year and they
wern't worth the paper they were printed on - and the paper
was cheap!

thanks,

Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:01:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Group One CT products any good?

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996 E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm thinking of buying some old traveller books produced by
> Group One - does anyone know if they're worth having. I got
> some Judges Guild Traveller supplements last year and they
> wern't worth the paper they were printed on - and the paper
> was cheap!

IMHO, the Group One items (I own all but two of the items they put out, 
and all the Judges' Guild items for Traveller) are pretty much in the 
same vein as Judges' Guild as far as usefulness.  If you didn't enjoy 
JG, you probably won't enjoy Group One.

Just my opinion, of course.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:07:06 -0400
Subject: Traveller 1965

Greetings:

I've been following the Traveller 1965 thread. When I get back from vacation,
I'll try to post book titles that are of use to you all.

Some things that you might want to look at in the meantime are:

Rude Astronauts and The Tranquility Alternative--Allen Steele--both are
direct descendents of the Bonestell/Von Braun space stuff--rockets with big
balloon fuel tanks and all that neat stuff. Look for the books by Von Braun,
Bonestell, Ley, etc.--Conquest of Space, Exploration of the Moon, Exploration
of Mars, etc.--lots of great paintings by Bonestell that will inspire you
endlessly, plus good text. Bonestell's paintings can be found in several
collections--either as a solo product, or with other space artists.

Movies--Keep an eye peeled for Destination Moon (loosely based on Robert A.
Heinlein's Rocket Ship Galileo), The Conquest of Space (based on the
Bonestell/Von Braun/Ley stuff), as well as War of the Worlds (based on
Wells), When Worlds Collide (based on two books by Wylie and another gent
whose name escapes me at the moment!)...plus Rocketship X-M, Moonbase (I
think that was the title--the screenplay was by Heinlein!) and many others.

Television: Men Into Space and other 50/early 60 TV series pop up on the Sci
Fi Channel now and again.

There's an art show that is floating around the country, with lots of
original Bonestell and other work that appeared in Colliers--this later
became the basis for the Bonestell/Von Braun/etc. books above. I saw it in
DC, then in NYC, then in Norfolk VA. I don't know where it is now, but it is
damn worth it. I think one or two books came out of this show--I've got one,
and I'll try to remember to post the titles.

Books--scads of books would be inspiration. Murray Leinsteir. Arthur C.
Clarke (especially the "Other Side of the Sky" and "Ten Billion Names of God"
collections--navigating a ship with a abacus, imagine that!). Robert A.
Heinlein. "Doc" Smith. John W. Campbell and his pen names. Isaac Asimov
(especially the "Lucky Starr" books). Just about any "Golden Age" author,
from Astounding and many other places!

That would give you a good basis for starting the campaign, or giving the
pre-history. Advance it to the 60's and there you have it. I really recommend
Steele's Tranquility Alternative--a lot of the names are the same, but the
details are different. Dole was president--and was impeached. Kennedy was
president--but a different Kennedy. Armstrong was the first man on Mars, not
Luna. Etc., etc., etc. It's a bit of a short book to buy in hardcover, but I
had been waiting for it so long I could not wait for the paperback!

For a good view of "commoners in space", I recommend Steele's other books:
Clarke County, Space (O'Neil style space colony); Orbital Decay (near Earth
orbit stuff); Labyrinth of Night (Mars, specifically, the "Face of Mars");
Lunar Descent (Luna), plus the first several stories in "Rude Astronauts".

Another author that has a fairly low-tech space series that I enjoyed was
Dana Stabenow--three books--Second Star, _________ Star and Red Planet Run.
Kind of clunky in terms of characterization, but they were short and light
(important qualities for bus commutes) and fun.

Well, I've blathered for long enough...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 10:03:25 -0800
Subject: Space 1889, and Rulebooks

>> Space: 1889 was the most original RPG setting to come out in a decade
>> and faced no competition in its niche.
>
>I can't figure this one either - I like the game, and have a lot of the
>materials published for it.  HOWEVER, I can think of two things that may
>have contributed to the failure of Space:1889.
>1) A lot of the younger crowd couldn't "get into" Space:1889 at all.  They'd
>   gotten interested in Science Fiction through BattleStar Galactica and
>   Star Wars and Star Trek.  Only the older folks (those of us who are now
>   over 30) had read Verne and Burroughs.

Everyone I know who bought it was in the 18-22 crowd; the 30's crowd in
anchorage seems to play D&D or Traveller, in both cases from the 3 5x8 book
sets... Personally, I liked space 1889; however, it suffered from a lack of
a target audience and too high a price.

>2) Although I have a lot of the Space:1889 material, when the game came out
>   I refused to buy it.  It was expensive, and I'd just gotten burned by
>   MegaTraveller - MT was so error-ridden that it was impossible to use, and
>   I felt quite ripped off.  So I refused to buy any GDW products.
>   Even now, every last Space:1889 product I own has been acquired
>   secondhand; I didn't buy any new GDW products from MegaTraveller to
>   T:TNE.

The other big problem I've found is that Softcover Main Books just don't
survive. My favorite games are all falling apart due to broken spines (even
after repairs). So I'm really glad to see a hardcover T4; my well abused
Sp1889 hardcover still looks great; my less used DarkConsp. Softcover looks
very haggard.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:11:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: hazard symbol bandwidth waste

not to "diss" this thread, but I find that 20 people contributing to it 
really is a waste of bandwidth WHEN THEY ALL INCLUDE THE SCHEMATIC FOR 
THE HAZARD SYMBOL REGARDLESS OF ITS RELEVANCE.
couldn't you just describe the symbol, or refer to it ("the big diamond 
subdivided into 4 diamonds, each color-coded, with a special symbol in 
the bottom diamond")?
For that matter, these digests are pretty damn big, and people don't 
really seem to be making much of an effort to streamline their posts, eg, 
only including relevant parts of posts being responded to, leaving off 
the catchy signatures, etc, etc.
just a humble plea.
Devon Belcher
PS I've noted a high proportion of graduate students here. . .'traveller 
- - game of the overeducated'? (at least 3 of my grad-student colleagues 
play. . .)

------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:26:39 -0700
Subject: Alternate rank names

I'm crewing a 5,000 ton cruiser that comes from the world of Kelnee which is
ruled by a monarchy and instead of using the traditional ranks such as
Captain, Commander, Ensign, etc. I want to use feudal, or medieval types of
names for ranks.  For example currently I have the Captain known as the
Ship's Lord, the ship's manager, kind of like an office manager but on a
starship, is called the Steward, The ship's troops are Men-at-Arms and are
led by a Captain and Sargents.  If any of you all can give me any other
ideas, it would be appreciated

Thanks

Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 01 Aug 96 16:54:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Alternate rank names

ever read the Books of the New Sun? The feudal-ish titles and nomenclature used
there are ripe for this application, IMHO. 

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:35:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Alternate rank names

On Aug 01, 1996 13:26:39, 'chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)' wrote: 
 
>I'm crewing a 5,000 ton cruiser that comes from the world of Kelnee which
is 
>ruled by a monarchy and instead of using the traditional ranks such as 
>Captain, Commander, Ensign, etc. I want to use feudal, or medieval types
of 
>names for ranks.  For example currently I have the Captain known as the 
>Ship's Lord, the ship's manager, kind of like an office manager but on a 
>starship, is called the Steward, The ship's troops are Men-at-Arms and are

>led by a Captain and Sargents.  If any of you all can give me any other 
>ideas, it would be appreciated 
 
Well, I'd say something, but that would give away just who I'm 
playing in Steve's TCS game.  I stole titles heavily from  
Gloranthan cults in Runequest, though... 
 
(Oh, to hell with it...) 
 
"Uh, sir?  We're being hailed by that interceptor that has the 
fire control locks on us-- Deathlord-Commander Agzazmel Braineater  
xi Hallikiv demands to speak to our 'Kaargsson'. What do I do now?" 
 
                      --dragoness 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:06:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Christopher Weuve wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> On the GDW-beta list you said:
> > This may be one reason IG rushed it.  I've read rumors of various 
> > sci-fi games coming out from other companies in the near future.  It 
> > is important that IG beat them to the market.  
> 
> Would you mind taking a few minutes and passing on what you have heard?  Feel 
> free to either respond to me directly or the list.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]

Christopher,

Off the top of my head:

Chameleon Eclectic will be releasing a Babylon 5 RPG in the fall,
White Wolf is going to do some sort of Sci-Fi game,
and I think SJG is going to come out with another Sci-Fi supplement 
(based on some series of books I never read, I believe).
Sorry for being so vague!  The memory isn't what it used to be. [G]


All this stuff is as of a few months ago, so it could have changed by now.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:34:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Shadis issue 27

Here are some semi-relevant thoughts I had after reading this month's 
Shadis magazine:

1)  Shadis is doing tie-in issues with various games.  For example, last 
month was Call of Cthulhu, this month is Star Wars.  Each month, a good 
deal of articles are based on the game-of-the-month.  In addition, each 
new subscriber who subscribes that month gets a copy of the game in 
question for free.  Perhaps IG could work out something with Shadis for 
them to do a MMT issue.  It'd be worth donating a few hundred T4 rule 
books, IMO.

2)  Shadis had a little blurb (basically a press release, just like the 
one on IG's web site) about the coming of T4 this issue.  The interesting 
thing was that I hadn't realized my favorite Shadis column is written by 
Lester W. Smith (the guy charged with developing the Traveller system).  
I love his Weasel Games column.  If the book is written as well as his 
column, I'm going to be thrilled.

3)  This issue has a Gamer's Lexicon article.  It is quite good.  Some of 
the included terms:

	Baby Face Rule:  In fantasy and horror campaigns, any child or 
			seemingly innocent creature found alone in a 
			dungeon will actually be a soul-sucking monster.

	Dice Junkie:	Any player who owns more dice than socks.

	Rubber Suit Syndrome: In science-fiction games, the tendency of GMs
			and players to portray aliens both physically and
			psychologically as 20th-century Americans in rubber
			suits instead of non-humans from strange worlds,
			divergent evolutionary paths, and unique cultures.

    I admit to being somewhat of a lexicon junkie (among my bathroom 
reading material is a copy of the Hacker's Dictionary, for instance), but 
I think most of the people who frequent this list will find this article 
enjoyable.

Pick up a copy of Shadis 27.  Oh, and Shadis 28 is supposed to have a 
review of T4.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:00:44 -0600
Subject: Re: The NEW Traveller

At 09:46 am 8/1/96 +0100, A.S.Lilly@bhars592.bnr.co.uk wrote:
>Violence is Golden (tm)(c)1980-1996 veers away but then there's a heavy

        Sorry, you can't copyright "Golden." I've been using it for nigh on
thirty years now...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:00:42 -0600
Subject: Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

At 07:38 pm 7/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On 07/31/96 at 05:36 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>
>>        So for me, a 3.5m interdeck space includes about 0.5 to 0.75m of
>>"ceiling," containing the deck itself, ductwork, power conduits, network
>>cables, etc.
>
>That little?  How does the crew get around up there for repairs and
>maintenance?

        Standing on ladders in the room itself, instead of crawling inside.
Although 1m works just as well. Actually, it's been so long since I've
actually designed, I don't remember how much the interdeck was! I just threw
off a few numbers.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:00:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed

At 09:29 am 8/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Here's a few news items that might be useful for Traveller referees.
>Both are from the latest issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology.
>
>1) The loss of Ariane 5 was caused by a software error in the intertial
>   guidance units.  The units had been used in Ariane 4 without problems,
>   and were installed in the new rocket without modification.
>
>   The problem turns out to be twofold: A calculation which is needed when
>   the rocket is on the ground was continued in flight for 40 seconds (the
>   data is not needed or used in flight).  During this 40 seconds, the
>   value overflowed (became too large for to calculate), causing an error
>   indication.
>
>   The error indication was assumed to be a hardware failure, and the
>   guidance unit was automatically taken off-line (and began sending
>   diagnostic data to the flight controls, instead of guidance data).  The
>   backup guidance unit was identical, and failed in an identical fashion
>   slightly before the main unit.

        I've got a better one for you ... a (nameless) company on a
(nameless) test program allegedly (this was before my time) loaded the
ground test software instead of the flight software for launch. Now, the
ground test software is intended to verify all the actuators, nozzles, etc.
are working, and ignores the navigation signals. So the rocket was launched,
all the nozzles immediately slewed hard to one side, paused, then slewed
hard to the other side ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:00:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed

At 09:29 am 8/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>   Almost any other aircraft would not have crashed in this condition; they
>   automatically disengage the autopilot when the pilot moves the controls
>   a significant amount.  The Airbus doesn't, on the theory that the pilot
>   might accidentally move the control column during an automatic landing
>   and cause a crash.  The Airbus also doesn't have a warning when the
>   autopilot adjusts the trim.

        Seems to be a difference in philosophy between Europeans and
Americans. Here, the Pilot in Command is IN COMMAND. Example: Airbus flight
control software won't let you exceed the limits of the plane. You can pull
back on the stick as hard as you want, it won't go beyond design limits. On
a MacDac or Boing, they assume if you're REALLY pulling, you must REALLY
want to do it. I've heard of a 747 that had a problem inflight, slipped into
a dive, and the pilot bent the wings pulling out. The plane made it back to
the airport instead of splashing.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #304
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 2 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 305

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Starship loans
         2. Re:  T4 Excitement and a Plea [LONG]
         3. Re: T4 shipping
         4. Re: Traveller in Other Languages
         5. T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)
         6. Re: Space 1889, and Rulebooks
         7. Re: Traveller in Other Languages
         8. Sundry
         9. Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs
        10. Re: Adventure Seed
        11. Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
        12. Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 20:15:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship loans

On 31 Jul 96 at 10:48, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> Stu says:
> 
> > I grant you this...but then again to use a 20th century Terran model, 
> > you'd best have a squeaky clean background to get a car loan

Excuse me...  A new car loan...at a competitive rate...  

> 
> 	Oh, no..there are places in town that'll sell just about anyone dead 
> or alive, a car.  Of course there's that little bit about 25-28% 
> interest...

Yeah, but you're not going to get a '96 OldsmoBuick for that...

> 
> >...let 
> > alone a VERY large business loan, which essentially is what is a 
> > starship loan would be...
> 
> 	Uhhhhh....Dear Guv Fife got several millions in 'business 
> loan'...when's he coming to trial? ;-)

Yup...but dear Guv Fife had a good reputation at the time he took out 
the loans (whether he deserved the reputation or not is questionable, 
and certainly that reputation was built at least partially on 
creative accounting)  Having a squeaky clean reputation, and BEING 
squeaky clean aren't the same...as Fife certainly has proven...

> > >    After you find >> Fred's community bank on Australia << willing to make a
> > > loan, you go thru the entire mess again for the inssurer of the ship/loan
> > > package.
> 
> 	No, insurance would have to be part of the deal...I'm paying for it 
> with my mortgage payment.  The same goes for a new car...you gotta 
> have full replacement coverage as a condition of getting the loan.
> 
> 	<snip>
> 
> > I don't think you could curtail the loan that easily once it 
> > happened...  
> 
> 	Since nothing's over 'till the fat lady signs the contract, yes it 
> is very easy for the lending authority to drop the loan.  Even after 
> it's been signed, most mortgages have a clause that states to the 
> effect of: "If the borrower (henceforth known as the 'screwee') lied 
> or omitted relevant information on the loan application or at any 
> time during the closing, the lender (henceforth known as...well you 
> get it)  can foreclose in a hearbeat.

True...  Guess I assumed that things were as represented...  If the 
person or persons getting the loan are found out as misrepresenting, 
then we're talking fraud...  Certainly...the lender would have the 
right to terminate the loan in those circumstances...

> > > >The Imperium could probably give a rip about whether a PC group owns 
> > > >a J-5 or 6 ship, as long as they pay the bills, and don't engage in 
> > > >piracy...  But if they start buying lots of them, and begin running a J-6 
> > > >Fed Ex style service???  Then things would get sticky...
> 
> 	I don't think the Imperium would actually have any problem with a 
> 'Fed Ex' type service...the majority of people who could afford such services are 
> probably within the power circle of the Imperium, anyway.

Well actually, since Imperiallines is the power circle's FedEx...  I 
don't think they'd be all that thrilled to see it...   And if we 
carry the FedEx example much farther than I ever intended it...  
Everybody but the riffraff would use it occasionally, and it would 
definitely (at least to some extent) lessen the importance of the 
XBoat system...  Keep in mind the XBoat's don't just carry TNS...  
They also carry personal mail, parcels, etc...  At least as presented 
in (GOD, HERE'S THAT WORD AGAIN) the "canon."

> 	Remember, FedEx doesn't, strictly speaking, employ really advanced 
> technology, just a BIG fleet of aircraft and trucks, and a 
> state-of-the-art package handling system.

To some extent you're wrong here.  FedEx got where they did when they 
did because they did use some state of the art package tracking 
systems that took advantage of early 80's improvements in computer 
technology.  No, the fleet of Boeing's weren't ground-breaking 
particularly, but the way they were used, and the information 
technology used to create the overnight shipping business (which 
didn't exist until FedEx invented it really), was pretty ground 
breaking...  (Not to mention actually realizing that somebody might 
pay a premium to get a letter, parcel, document, etc, overnight 
instead of sometime...)

You're focusing too literally on the FedEx example...  Actually we're 
in agreement here if you think about it...  I said that a group of 
PC's setting up a J-6 courier business would have a tough time...  If 
they didn't toe the Imperial line, they wouldn't have a tough 
time...they'd be shut out of business, when they found it hard to get 
any sizable contracts.  Essentially, they would either get Religion 
about the Imperium real quick, or they'd be out of business even 
quicker...

> 	The USPS could easily match FedEx's speed; it's just that
> first-class mail wouldn't cost no 32 cents an ounce, but about
> $2.95, they wouldn't cruise the entire city every day dropping off
> and picking up packages,  and there would be about a 25%-50% increase in 
> air traffic (anyone know how much mail is trucked point to point vs. 
> flown?)

Actually, the USPS does match FedEx's speed (maybe not reliability, 
but speed, anyways), its called Express Mail...

> 	A PC group running even a moderately sized J6 courier service would 
> probably get less static from the Imperium than contracts...they'd be 
> simply co-opted into the system. I'd suspect that a basic Imperial 
> High Speed Courier contract stipulates that only Imperial goods can 
> be carried on that run, and PC's with a gargantuan mortgage to pay 
> off will jump at the rates the Imperium would pay.

<snip>

> 	Now this is when all those 'insider trading' threads start coming 
> together...those PC's will have , at the minimum, two weeks to get 
> through the imperial seals and find out just what was so important, 
> anyway.
> 

Now this is an intriguing adventure idea...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Norm Fenlason <normf@cyberatl.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 22:51:00 -0700
Subject: Re:  T4 Excitement and a Plea [LONG]

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc 
[snipped]:
> So, I have made my own personal pledge.  Starting this week, I intend to submit
> something once per month to JTAS.  In fact, I already made this month's
> submission; mailed it yesterday.  Rob Miracle says we have more than 500 TML
> members.  If only 10% of you do the same thing, IG will be getting 50
> submissions per month.  Even if they only accept 10% of what is submitted,
> there would be 10 JTAS articles by TML members in every bimonthly issue.  Look...
> OK, I'll get down off my pulpit now.  I just want the new Trav to stay around,
> grow tremendously and piss off TSR and people like Phil Pugliese.  I want it to
> be something we can both enjoy and participate in.  Think of this as something
> like an election:  If You Don't Vote (or write), Don't Bitch

The gist of Steve's statement is that the fans made CT/MT/TNE. It is our purchasing power, but 
more importantly, our interest. I work with a local hobby store coordinating games in their 
game room. The pressure there is to run something that the store is selling. My problem is that 
the games I like are all out of print: Dark Conspiracy, TNE, Space:1889, more recently XXVc 
(The Buck Rogers in the 25th Century). How can these games be run at the retailers store? 

The hot stuff (just about anything from White Dwarf) is easy. Post a game and turn the folks 
away. For the more obscure stuff (Traveller has been slipping into this category), I have to be 
a little more creative. I have run miniature table-top free-for-alls using the TNE personal 
combat system. (I like it as one of the most realistic and playable that I've seen.) I had 
Space Vampires, chanting witches, and power-armored combat veterans running around. I sold the 
game to the retailer as a promotion for miniatures. However, the in-stock TNE books sold out 
within the week. (Only 4 copies, I'm not bragging.) While running the game I clearly indicated 
where the combat system came from, as well as, how I designed the weapons. I even drafted the 
witch's *spells* from the psionics rules. Changed the names for the technically challenged.

How then to overcome fan inertia? Take IGs challenge and publish for their system. Send stuff 
to them or their licensees. I too played CT before Books 4 & 5. I was impressed at the stuff 
from the Judges Guild and FASA. The plethora(?) of information available was incredible at the 
time. The GDW-TM typos actually attracted me in the anti-establishment way of the times. I will 
try to take up Steve's plea and pledge to submit. One word of warning: another attraction was 
that the competing system D&D books at the time were $15, the CT books $4.95.

Off my soapbox now...

Questions:  (to help me submit...)

1.  Are the beasties compatible with the TNE creature generation rules. I have some 
terrain-based encounter tables for various worlds that I have complete with cheesy home-brewed 
illustrations.

2.  Can some one in the know please post all current licensees and known publications for T4. 
Their submission guidelines would be nice as well.

3.  Has someone compiled a list of genre ships? When QSDS was birthing, I was overwhelmed by 
conversions of the Safari ship, the Scout, the lab ship, the far/fat trader - pure canon. I 
have seen some other designes but mostly extension of the Traveller designs. I know there are 
special purpose ships in the minds of the TML. Has anyone come up with a list of these 
*concept* ships?

4.  How much year 0 history is *up for grabs*, regarding development. For example, I believe 
the Judges Guild developed the Ley Sector (please correct me if I am wrong). What is available 
for freelance development.

I will have more questions now that I am up and running. Also regards DECKPLANS. I was one of 
the ones who was going to post some CorelDraw3 deckplan symbols. My 5 volt PS took out my SCSI 
adapter driving the Bernoulli that held the plans. I am gettin a new adapter within the week 
and will send them...where? To DJGolden? others?

- --Norm Fenlason

work:  normf@wegener.com
play:  normf@cyberatl.net

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 22:02:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 shipping

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Bertil Jonell wrote:

>   BTRC.
> 
>   There's a very short description at:
> 
>   http://members.aol.com/btrc/web_files/html/catalog.htm#Slag!

Thanks.  I'll check out Slag! when I go to the games store this weekend 
(that is, IF I get the time to go to the game store, like I've planned 
to...).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 03:42:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller in Other Languages

On Jul 24, 1996 13:26:37, 'Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc' wrote: 
 
 
>Was there ever a French translation of Traveller?  I have the
spanish-language  
> 
>version of the Traveller Book, and I have seen a German version.  What
other  
>languages were used? 
> 
>Steve Charlton 
 
Japanese, for one. I have the Aug. 1992 issue of "RPG Magazine", 
the Hobby Japan house organ. The feature of "Replay Jam" 
(essentially a "you are there" recap of a gaming session 
of the featured product) was "Knightfall. (also in that issue: 
Runequest Vikings and "Alphonse", a Patlabor RPG) 
 
 I also have a Hobby Japan catalogue with Traveller  
and MegaTraveller. 
 
One thing I notice: the cover art beats anything that 
appeared on the originals. Note to Ken Whitman: 
in any "Art of Traveller" book or prints, GET THE  
JAPANESE STUFF TOO!!!!!!!!!!! 
 
If anyone wants to read the Knightfall Replay Jam, 
I have it translated, it's about 30K, too long to 
post willy-nilly. Email me and I'll send it.  
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:57:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

Dear Folks -

Joe Walsh said:

>I like space combat to be waaaay too simple to expect IG or anyone else 
to publish something to my taste

Joe, when you come up with something, why not submit it here and to JTAS? 
There are a number of people who want a REALLY simple system - one actor 
even wanted to just use a descriptive system. This is something that 
people could use if they don't want a starship encounter to dominate the 
session, just whip out the USCS (Unbelievably Simple Combat System) for 5 
minutes. I wouldn't imagine such a system being so wordy that it can't 
fit in a JTAS article.

BTW, what are the guidelines for producing stuff here? I know that IG is 
going back to the "all rights reserved" method - when you sell them an 
article, they buy ALL the rights: first publishing, reprints, etc.

However, does sending stuff to these mailing list count as "publishing"? 
No-one ever answered my query on this. My hope is that the lists can be 
used to knock the rough edges off an article (or plug the gaping holes) 
so that the final submitted work is as good as you can make it. Any 
copyright lawyers out there (Glenn, ideas)?

Can IG reply to this so we have a clear indication of whether we can 
refine our ideas thru the lists?

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:07:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Space 1889, and Rulebooks

On  1 Aug 96 at 10:03, William F. Hostman spewed:

> The other big problem I've found is that Softcover Main Books just don't
> survive. My favorite games are all falling apart due to broken spines (even
> after repairs). So I'm really glad to see a hardcover T4; my well abused
> Sp1889 hardcover still looks great; my less used DarkConsp. Softcover looks
> very haggard.

Yup...good point William.  I have 2 sets of CT little black books, 2 
sets of MT, 2 sets of TNE, and they are all in varying sorts of 
decay not from neglect, but just from heavy use.  The MT books, 
which I've used most, are held together with paste and a prayer at 
this point...

I have to admit I bought 3 of the hardcovers, (1 to put away) just so 
that I could have a couple of copies to use that would survive the 
long haul...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 21:19:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller in Other Languages

On  2 Aug 96 at 3:42, John H Bogan Jr spewed:

> If anyone wants to read the Knightfall Replay Jam, 
> I have it translated, it's about 30K, too long to 
> post willy-nilly. Email me and I'll send it.  

John,
I'd be interested in seeing this, particularly since I just bought 
Knightfall recently...

Nice post, BTW...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 00:44:02 -0400
Subject: Sundry

John Macpherson said:

> A lot of people have criticized TNE as being "T:2000 in space,"
> but T:2000 appears to have been GDWs most successful product, 
> so it is not surprising that they thought that was their market.

Twilight: 2000 sold _extremely_ well. Not to mention, the Twilight: 2000
mechanics are descended (through several internal iterations) from Traveller.

> But TNE still was not enough to keep GDW afloat.

But it could have been, had a few other things not blind-sided us at the same
time.

> A look at the history of GDW shows a whole series of great 
> ideas, few of which were successful.  

Depends on what you mean by successful. All of them sold well enough to
amortize their development costs. Space: 1889 was the only one that was cut
because sales were dropping, but a smaller company would have _loved_ to have
had sales numbers like it had.

> 2300AD was an excellent setting and had some of the best hard 
> SF  background and aliens ever. Space: 1889 was the most 
> original RPG setting to come out in a decade and faced no
> competition in its niche. Dark Conspiracy's only failing seems to > have
been that it was ahead of its time.  With the runaway 
> popularity of the X-files, one can't help but wonder how such a 
> game could possibly fail.
>
> And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?  

Both 2300 AD and Dark Conspiracy fell prey to too few resources (capital,
design/development/production staff, etc.). We did not have the internal
resources to properly support all of them at once.

> This is not an attempt to ressurect the "TNE killed GDW, did not,
> did too," thread

I wasn't aware that there was still any controversy over this point. I was
there...TNE did not kill GDW.

- ------------------------------

Joe Walsh said:

> 1)  I have a lot of time, energy, and (face it) emotion invested
> in Traveller.  I want this product to be a smashing success so
> bad I can taste it (sick, isn't it?).

If its sick, then I'm just as sick as you are. There are few people on this
planet who have more invested in Traveller than I have. 

- ------------------------------

Derek Wildstar

>> 2300AD was an excellent setting and had some of the best hard >> SF
background and aliens ever.
>
> Agreed.  IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had 
> the materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been
>  the initial realease, I believe the game would have sold well. 
> However, initially marketing it under the "Traveller" name 
> probably turned off many potential customers (the folks who
>  would be interested in an SF game, but didn't want to
>  play Traveller) and turned many of the purchasers against
>  it (people who were expecting Traveller materials set
>  in 2300AD/Rule of Man era).

Yeah...calling it Traveller: 2300 was a mistake. I don't know why we did it.

>> Space: 1889 was the most original RPG setting to come out in a >> decade
and faced no competition in its niche.
>
> I can't figure this one either - I like the game, and have a
>  lot of the materials published for it.  HOWEVER, I can think 
> of two things that may have contributed to the failure of 
> Space:1889.
> 1) A lot of the younger crowd couldn't "get into" Space:1889 
>  at all.  They'd gotten interested in Science Fiction through
>  BattleStar Galactica and Star Wars and Star Trek.  Only the
>   older folks (those of us who are now over 30) had read 
> Verne and Burroughs.

Mostly true. Space: 1889 fans are born, not made. We had a small handout
printed up that explained the background. You could hand it to a person, they
would read it, and one of two things happened: 1) They instantly loved the
idea. 2) They gave the brochure back and asked: "What else ya got?" It didn't
seem to be age-related (there were many 16-year-old Space: 1889 fanatics...I
knew of some 12-year-old fans). Sales were levelling off, and at a low enough
level to make the game's long term viability uncertain. Still, it remained
the license that would not die. There is still a chance the movie will get
made, and that would do a lot to revitalize the game.

>> Dark Conspiracy's only failing seems to have
>> been that it was ahead of its time.  With the runaway popularity >> of the
X-files, one can't help but wonder how such a game could >> possibly fail.
>
> I don't know who owns Dark Conspiracy now, but they just might
> want to talk to Fox TV about a licencing deal.  A re-written
> and re-released Dark Conspiracy might just make a good 
> "Official X-Files RPG".

Tantalus now owns Dark Con. Hey Rob! Are you guys listening to this? : )

>> 	And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?
>
>Several reasons:
< several opinions deleted >
> 4) And I _still_ haven't been able to figure out why anybody in
> the RPG industry would have anything to do with a Gary Gygax > product.

You didn't see the list of _other_ licensed products. Had the lawsuit held
off for another couple of months, the JVC and Nintendo contracts would have
been signed, and there would have been a few hundred more lawyers on our side
(JVC hires lawyers in platoon-sized units). As it was, the other contractees
said "come see us when the lawsuit is over." Things might have turned out
differently had there been no lawsuit...

Harold D. Hale said:

>>But TNE still was not enough  to keep GDW afloat.
>
>   TNE did not kill GDW, nor did the end of the Cold War, the 
> unfortunate choices they made with regard to what games to 
> develop, the law suit by TSR, CCGs, or the departure of 
> Dave Nilsen.  All these things to one degree or another 
> *may* or *may not* have contributed to GDW's death 
> (each point is debatable). 

For those of you interested in an insider's viewpoint: GDW failed due to a
number of factors, any one of which (hell, any three of which) we could have
survived alone. 

> Like the destruction of the Roman Empire, the story of 
> how we get to the fall of Rome in 476 or Constantinople 
> in 1453 is much more complex than can be summed up in 
> a single cause or reason (though historians occasionally still > try).

Historians can be lazy sometimes, just like everybody else.

  LKW

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:10:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

>In mail you write:

>Or to put it another way, UPS wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
>Fed-EX would laugh in your Face, the post office would likely have you
>arrested as a terrorist for bringing it into the building. (When I
>first got my copy of the handbook listing this stuff, I looked to see
>if they listed anything rated 4-4-4. Much to my surprise, there were
>something like 5 listed. And to be listed it has to be something used
>industrially!)

Curiosity is killing me.  Besides, I need something to scare some players
with.  What are the five lucky compounds?


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Zathras warn, but no one listen.  Nobody ever listens to Zathras."
- -- Zathras
PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 23:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         Seems to be a difference in philosophy between Europeans and
> Americans. Here, the Pilot in Command is IN COMMAND. Example: Airbus flight
> control software won't let you exceed the limits of the plane. You can pull
> back on the stick as hard as you want, it won't go beyond design limits. On
> a MacDac or Boing, they assume if you're REALLY pulling, you must REALLY
> want to do it. I've heard of a 747 that had a problem inflight, slipped into
> a dive, and the pilot bent the wings pulling out. The plane made it back to
> the airport instead of splashing.

All I have to say is that whatzhisface (test pilot guy) rolled a 707 over
Seafair here in Seattle some time back.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:27:00 PST
Subject: Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

In mail, traveller@MPGN.COM writes:

> At 05:27 pm 7/31/96 -0500, mkm@qrc.com wrote:
>>Question: Is 14 m^3 per Td accomodations _all_ open volume?  I've tended
>>to assume that it is, given that life support, structure, etc. are
>>covered elsewhere.  If so, there seems to be a lot of watsted space when
>>your ceiling is 3m (9'10") or 3.5m (11'6") high.
>
>         I haven't assumed it's all open volume. Some portion of the life
> support equipment HAS to depend on how many people are using it! So to me,
> the volume for life support actually called out by name in the design
> process always dealt with things like plumbing, ducting, lights, heating,
> etc. But a portion of each accommodation included the actual air purifier,
> etc. for the person to be housed therein.
>
>         So for me, a 3.5m interdeck space includes about 0.5 to 0.75m of
> "ceiling," containing the deck itself, ductwork, power conduits, network
> cables, etc.

Given the obvious maintenance problems, I'd lay odds that the cieling
in a stateroom is only 2.5m giving you almost a meter of "crawl space"
for maintenance. 

For that matter, if *I* was designing a multi-deck ship, I'd do it like
this:

- -----------------------------	<-- ceiling
				^
				|
cabin				+-- 2.5 meters
				|
				v
- -----------------------------	<-- floor
				^
				|
equipment space			+-- 2 meters
				v
- -----------------------------	<-- ceiling
				^
				|
cabin				+-- 2.5 meters
				|
				v
- -----------------------------	<-- floor

This gives the proper 7 meters for two decks, but gives you a whole two
meters to run ducts, wiring, etc, and gives you enough *room* to get at
them without crawling thru someone's cabin. And there are probably
several rather large "conduits" running vertically between decks,
complete with built in ladders. (Star Trek *finally* got around to this
in the last few years)

BTW, given that just about *all* the ships that the average person is
familiar with are laid out on the "a few big horizontal decks" model,
going back to the more realistic "lots of decks stacked vertically"
model will actually provide a feel of "Hey! This is *different*."

Remember, Star Trek (in all forms), Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica,
Buck Rogers, etc *all* have the decks laid out *parallel* to the thrust
axis. Babylon 5 doesn't, but it isn't *obvious* that it isn't. So to
all but us "old folks", this will be a "new" idea.

Oh yeah, the access panels for the "service spaces" are going to be
both secured (need tools or a key or both to open) *and* alarmed. They
make too good a place for hijackers to utilize.

And they make "taking" a ship that much more interesting. The crew is
going to know the spaces a lot better than any invading force.
Especially if their ship isn't a standard design.

They even make it easier to smuggle things, as you can put in false
ducts and the like. Of course then you haver the problem of moving the
stuff from the berth to the customer.

- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 02:55:42 PST
Subject: Re: Industrial Chemicals and PCs

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>
>>Or to put it another way, UPS wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
>>Fed-EX would laugh in your Face, the post office would likely have you
>>arrested as a terrorist for bringing it into the building. (When I
>>first got my copy of the handbook listing this stuff, I looked to see
>>if they listed anything rated 4-4-4. Much to my surprise, there were
>>something like 5 listed. And to be listed it has to be something used
>>industrially!)
>
> Curiosity is killing me.  Besides, I need something to scare some players
> with.  What are the five lucky compounds?

Sorry, but that book, along with most of my library, is in storage. Off
the top of my head, fluorine gas cylinders ought to do nicely. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

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From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #306
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest          Saturday, 3 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 306

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)
         2. Re: Unadvisable Rocket Science
         3. Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids
         4. Generating T4 excitement
         5. Nitpick on Judge's Guild
         6. Re:  T4 Excitement and a Plea [LONG]
         7. Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)
         8. Re: Adventure Seed
         9. Re: Sundry
        10. Re: ID4 SPOILER WARNING!!
        11. Re: Nitpick on Judge's Guild
        12. Imperium Games Page
        13. Re: Rolling a 707 (Td V96 #305)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:26:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)

(Tremendous material snipped: including good ideas for "tween deck" space)
> BTW, given that just about *all* the ships that the average person is
> familiar with are laid out on the "a few big horizontal decks" model,
> going back to the more realistic "lots of decks stacked vertically"
> model will actually provide a feel of "Hey! This is *different*."
> 
> Remember, Star Trek (in all forms), Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica,
> Buck Rogers, etc *all* have the decks laid out *parallel* to the thrust
> axis. Babylon 5 doesn't, but it isn't *obvious* that it isn't. So to
> all but us "old folks", this will be a "new" idea.
> 
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

Actually, the position that there are so many horizontal deck ships out
there is my argument for sticking with the present, mixed system.  I think
playability and flavor are enhanced and preserved with horizontal deck
ships; I won't go into why, but the main reason for wanting such decks to
be common and usual is so I won't have to design a hundred more ships to
keep the richness and variety I have now!

Every issue of challenge, every adventure or double adventure, every
supplement, magazine, etc. originaally got my bucks by having one,
sometimes simple deckplan in it.  They are almost all horizontal, usually
quite usable and accurate (exception: Where on the King Richard (from
FASA's Action Aboard) do they put all the fuel, drives, etc?!?) and let me
showcase a different ship every two or three  sessions.

You can argue for vertically oriented decks, but give me my traveller
ships!  Hell, I've imported ship designs from other venues, which usually
use horizontal decks, for traveller several times...I'm sure I'm not the
only one who came up for stats on the Battleship Yamato (or
Argo...Wildstar??) or the Battlestar Galactica, or even the Eagle modular 
cutter from Space:1999.

Other arguments exist, and I think in the Real World(tm) ships would
probably be oiented as you feel they sould, but I am not the first to
point out that traveller is *not* the real world.   

I think I'll try to usse the SSDS to make up stats for the Milennium
Falcon tonight...

Pete (hmmm 5G, Jump 4, two laser turrets, small cargo area, various
concealed small arm defencses, TL13 design with TL15 components, ...)




------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:21:50 PST
Subject: Re: Unadvisable Rocket Science

THis looks like a good candidate for the "hazardous chemical" that the
players get to ship!
 
[re-mailed to you from rec.arts.sf.science]
[the original seemed to come from henry@zoo.toronto.edu]

> Oh come now Geoff -- we can do better than that.  Chlorine
> pentafluoride, ClF5, is a great deal more corrosive than fluorine
> (because it's denser than gaseous fluorine and warmer than liquid
> fluorine), is a liquid at room temperature under a bit of pressure,
> and is highly toxic to boot.  For sheer nastiness, it's hard to beat
> a compound that is hypergolic with most fire-extinguishing agents,
> which ClF5 is.

> ClF5 has *almost* flown as a rocket oxidizer several times, most
> recently in some of the Clementine 2 proposals.  SDIO has developed
> and tested a hydrazine/ClF5 maneuvering engine.  If you want maximum
> performance, it is actually quite attractive:  it's dense, energetic,
> and non-cryogenic.  You gain about 50s of Isp over N2O4, and ClF5 is
> denser too.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 11:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids

On 08/02/96 at 02:27 AM,  shadow@qrc.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Given the obvious maintenance problems, I'd lay odds that the cieling in a
>stateroom is only 2.5m giving you almost a meter of "crawl space" for
>maintenance. 

>For that matter, if *I* was designing a multi-deck ship, I'd do it like
>this:

<snip>

[....2 meter inter-deck space between decks...]

I originally tried that, but dropped it back to 1 meter.  I wanted a space
below AND above each deckspace to handle certain things..like grav modules. 
The space goes up to 2 meters in some places and in others like cargo holes
and engine rooms the ceiling sometimes disappears and the ductwork and
pipes are exposed.  I purposely make the "overheads" a warren of different
height and width crawlspaces.

>Oh yeah, the access panels for the "service spaces" are going to be both
>secured (need tools or a key or both to open) *and* alarmed. They make too
>good a place for hijackers to utilize..smuggling...

Absolutely!  That's why I do it.  <g> I could care less about the real need
for crawlspaces, I do this totally for the game effect.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 2 Aug 96  9:54:23 MS
Subject: Generating T4 excitement

Norm Fenlason <normf@cyberatl.net> said
>I work with a local hobby store coordinating games in their game room. The 
pressure there is to run >something that the store is selling. My problem is 
that the games I like are all out of print: Dark >Conspiracy, TNE, Space:1889, 
more recently XXVc  (The Buck Rogers in the 25th Century). How can >these games 
be run at the retailers store? 

D'oohhh!  I did not even think about that.  My local hobby store actually 
operates a whole shop devoted solely to allowing people to come in and play 
store-sponsored games.  Miniatures stuff does seem to provoke interest and 
bring in new people.  I am not sure the new combat system (range bands choke) 
will be a huge draw, but the Traveller Strategic Battles thing from GenCon this 
year might be a really good thing for Imperium Games to send copies to game 
stores for demo purposes.  Hey, IG!  Did you catch that?

>1.  Are the beasties compatible with the TNE creature generation rules. I have 
some 
>terrain-based encounter tables for various worlds that I have complete with 
cheesy home-brewed 
>illustrations.
I would suspect that you will be able to use the CT animal definition rules 
with only minor modifications.  The are that is likely to need to modification 
work would be the combat statistics; specifically how much damage it does and 
what sort of armor protection it has.   If the animal rules change armor in the 
descriptions to an absolute numeric value, you'll just need to convert the 
description of the armor to the protection value of the human-style armor the 
creature is described as having as a natural skin.  I suspect the animal 
damages values will have a lot of the "1d3" things we've been warned about, but 
Andy Lilly apparently has found the d3 parts can be dropped with little 
appreciable effect.

>2.  Can some one in the know please post all current licensees and known 
publications for T4. 
>Their submission guidelines would be nice as well.
The Imperium Games submission guidelines are on the 'net 
(www.imperiumgames.com).  As for other licensed publishers, the only one I've 
heard of is the one Andy Lilly mentioned yesterday, which I guess is in some 
way associated with BITS.  It sounded like Sword of the Knight (the people that 
do the Traveller Chronicle) will be publishing that item in the US, so I 
suspect they are going to have some sort of license as well.  If you don't have 
net access send me an email (scharlto@rtd.com) and I'll send you a copy of the 
guidelines I downloaded from the net.

>3.  Has someone compiled a list of genre ships? When QSDS was birthing, I was 
overwhelmed by 
>conversions of the Safari ship, the Scout, the lab ship, the far/fat trader - 
pure canon. I 
>have seen some other designes but mostly extension of the Traveller designs. I 
know there are 
>special purpose ships in the minds of the TML. Has anyone come up with a list 
of these 
>*concept* ships?
What do you mean by concept ships?  I did the "basic" designs (Far Trader, Free 
Trader, Scout etc) that are supposedly going to appear in the new Traveller; 
some early versions of these were posted here.  I've since done a fairly large 
pile of other designs (SDBs, larger merchants, larger combatants, a Luxury 
Liner and some other assorted vessels).  Some of the "non-canon" ships I have 
come up with include a Marine Company Transport, a salvage ship, a hospital 
ship, a really big lab ship, a "pocket carrier", a hazardous cargo ship and a 
modular freighter.  I will probably be posting the other new ships here in the 
next week or so.

>4.  How much year 0 history is *up for grabs*, regarding development. For 
example, I believe 
>the Judges Guild developed the Ley Sector (please correct me if I am wrong). 
What is available 
>for freelance development.
The Judge's Guild stuff was generally of very poor quality, and was declared 
"non-canon" long ago by GDW.  It sounds like MM/IG intend to leave large chunks 
of space (nearly all of it) intentionally undefined to allow people to create 
the unique universes they want.  I suspect that IG will be developing Core, 
Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim sectors themselves, but beyond that I think 
there won't be any "land grant" activities like those from early Traveller 
days.  Therefore, I imagine nearly everything is available for freelance 
development, but it will be interesting to see how IG is going to reconcile 
their "undefined space" goal with the use of freelance adventures and source 
materials set in non-IG sectors.

Good luck, Norm.  I hope to see some of your stuff in print in the (not so) Far 
Future.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com, scharlto@rtd.com
King of Misfit Toys

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:04:52 GMT
Subject: Nitpick on Judge's Guild

On Aug 02, 1996 09:54:23, 'Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc' wrote: 
 
>>4.  How much year 0 history is *up for grabs*, regarding development. For
 
>example, I believe  
>>the Judges Guild developed the Ley Sector (please correct me if I am
wrong).  
>What is available  
>>for freelance development. 
 
>The Judge's Guild stuff was generally of very poor quality, and  
>was declared "non-canon" long ago by GDW. 
 
I've heard a couple of people stating that, and I remember  
that AT THE TIME, it was rather poorly compared to offerings 
from GDW itself, FASA, the Keith's outfit, etc.  However, I 
managed to pick up Ley Sector, Glimmerdrift Sector, and one 
other Judge's Guild thing a year or so ago. 
 
They're a hell of a lot better than I remembered, and many 
orders of magnitude better than that dreck of Chuck Gannon's 
Challenge was publishing in its last days.  I fail to see 
what is "very poor quality" about the JG sectors, in any case. 
I hear the adventures weren't so good, but I don't have them, 
so I can't say. 
 
                          --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 17:25:06 -0600
Subject: Re:  T4 Excitement and a Plea [LONG]

At 10:51 pm 8/1/96 -0700, Norm Fenlason wrote:
>I will have more questions now that I am up and running. Also regards
DECKPLANS. I was one of 
>the ones who was going to post some CorelDraw3 deckplan symbols. My 5 volt
PS took out my SCSI 
>adapter driving the Bernoulli that held the plans. I am gettin a new
adapter within the week 
>and will send them...where? To DJGolden? others?

        MEMEMEMEMEME! Oh. That is me. Yes, please!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 17:28:14 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

At 01:57 pm 8/2/96 +1000, you wrote:

>However, does sending stuff to these mailing list count as "publishing"? 
>No-one ever answered my query on this. My hope is that the lists can be 
>used to knock the rough edges off an article (or plug the gaping holes) 
>so that the final submitted work is as good as you can make it. Any 
>copyright lawyers out there (Glenn, ideas)?
>
>Can IG reply to this so we have a clear indication of whether we can 
>refine our ideas thru the lists?

        I'm no lawyer, but both the Quick Ship Design System published in
the basic book, and the slightly more detailed Standard Ship Design System,
to be in the "Starships" supplement, were not just refined but created from
basically nothing in a single week on the GDW Beta List. So there's precedent.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 17:28:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed

At 11:01 pm 8/1/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         Seems to be a difference in philosophy between Europeans and
>> Americans. Here, the Pilot in Command is IN COMMAND. Example: Airbus flight
>> control software won't let you exceed the limits of the plane. You can pull
>> back on the stick as hard as you want, it won't go beyond design limits. On
>> a MacDac or Boing, they assume if you're REALLY pulling, you must REALLY
>> want to do it. I've heard of a 747 that had a problem inflight, slipped into
>> a dive, and the pilot bent the wings pulling out. The plane made it back to
>> the airport instead of splashing.
>
>All I have to say is that whatzhisface (test pilot guy) rolled a 707 over
>Seafair here in Seattle some time back.

        Well, yeah, my assumption rests on the pilot being right. But
personally, I'd rather have the pilot be able to do what he wants, and risk
crashing, than going down KNOWING the pilot could pull out if the computer
let him.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:13:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sundry

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Twilight: 2000 sold _extremely_ well. Not to mention, the Twilight: 2000
> mechanics are descended (through several internal iterations) from Traveller.

I liked playing Twilight: 2000.  The problem is, everyone else in our 
group did, too.  Meaning, no one wanted to GM the game! :(  After 
shuffling the responsibilities between us a number of times, we finally 
gave up and moved on.  This is the only game we played (and there were 
dozens of games over the years) wherein this occurred.  

I had a LOT of fun playing it the few times I did, though. I loved it.



> Both 2300 AD and Dark Conspiracy fell prey to too few resources (capital,
> design/development/production staff, etc.). We did not have the internal
> resources to properly support all of them at once.

So GDW was spreading itself too thin, eh?  That's pretty common in 
business, and nothing (IMO) to feel particularly bad about.  The 
consequences of this mistake are pretty bad, but it is soooo easy to make 
(thus the $1000-a-head seminars on "refocusing on core competencies" and 
other claptrap).  

> I wasn't aware that there was still any controversy over this point. I was
> there...TNE did not kill GDW.

One product rarely does.  The holding company I work for has owned a 
range of businesses from cash cows to dogs.  The dogs we've owned have 
had poor performance from a variety of reasons.  It's just never so neat 
you can say "if you would/wouldn't have done /this/, you would have 
succeeded." 

GDW had a long and successful run.  So it didn't last forever.  That's no 
sin.

> Joe Walsh said:
> 
> > 1)  I have a lot of time, energy, and (face it) emotion invested
> > in Traveller.  I want this product to be a smashing success so
> > bad I can taste it (sick, isn't it?).
> 
> If its sick, then I'm just as sick as you are. There are few people on this
> planet who have more invested in Traveller than I have. 

:)  True.  But, in your case I think it's a little less sick.  You were 
part of the group that shaped Traveller into what it was.  I'm just a 
fan-boy. :P

> Derek Wildstar
> > Agreed.  IMHO, 2300AD never recovered from Traveller:2300.  Had 
> > the materials which were printed under the "2300AD" title been
> >  the initial realease, I believe the game would have sold well. 
[snip]
> Yeah...calling it Traveller: 2300 was a mistake. I don't know why we did it.

Probably sounded like a damned fine idea at the time.   Much like "New 
Coke." :)

> >> 	And yet all these games _did_ fail.  Why?
> >
> >Several reasons:
> < several opinions deleted >
> > 4) And I _still_ haven't been able to figure out why anybody in
> > the RPG industry would have anything to do with a Gary Gygax > product.
> 
> You didn't see the list of _other_ licensed products. Had the lawsuit held
> off for another couple of months, the JVC and Nintendo contracts would have
> been signed, and there would have been a few hundred more lawyers on our side
> (JVC hires lawyers in platoon-sized units). As it was, the other contractees
> said "come see us when the lawsuit is over." Things might have turned out
> differently had there been no lawsuit...

Arrrghhh.  Good ol' T$R.  


> For those of you interested in an insider's viewpoint: GDW failed due to a
> number of factors, any one of which (hell, any three of which) we could have
> survived alone. 

Let's see...we have:

1)  Lawsuit
2)  GDW spreading itself too thin (talent, capital, etc.)
3)  Talent flight (Guessing here - not saying there was no talent left, but
                   some major players had moved on, which always hurts at
                   least in the short run.)
4)  New competition (Suddenly CCG's and diceless/storytelling games 
                     began to dominate.)
5)  Changing Demographics (Linked to #4, above:  The younger set tended 
                           toward products different from what GDW wanted,
                           and as usual the older customers tended to stop
                           playing as they got jobs, families, etc.)

Others?  [May as well write the "death of GDW" history/case study now rather
          than wait for the historians to do it when the participants aren't
          available.:)]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:50:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: ID4 SPOILER WARNING!!

At 10:21 AM 7/29/96 +0800, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

>"43.    Aliens are so dumb that they build 20-km wide Destroyers, at a
>no-doubt enormous cost, to wipe out cities when all they had to do was
>utilize Earth's own gravity well against us and wipe out our cities by
>dropping rocks on them."
> 

Did he say something about planetary bombardment with rocks?  DID HE SAY
SOMETHING ABOUT PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT WITH ROCKS!
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:04:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Nitpick on Judge's Guild

On  2 Aug 96 at 20:04, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> >example, I believe  
> >>the Judges Guild developed the Ley Sector (please correct me if I am
> wrong).  

Yes, but they were later given the Traveller version of 
excommunication, and were declared (JARGON ALERT) "non-canon" 
by GDW and/or DGP in the MT days...the Ley Sector on the FTP sites is 
*NOT* the Ley Sector of Judges Guild fame, other than the sector 
name...

Why this is the case I don't know.  Judge's Guilds sectors were of 
good (not great) quality, and at a time when GDW was still only 
publishing Solomani Rim & Spinward Marches, it was fun to use the 4 
of them...  They were the setting of a number of my early 
adventures...

The adventures on the other hand, I had the chance to inspect a lot, 
in game stores when they came out, and they never thrilled me.  
Definitely several notches below the quality of  FASA, Keith 
Brothers, and the GDW stuff...

> >The Judge's Guild stuff was generally of very poor quality, and  
> >was declared "non-canon" long ago by GDW. 
>  
> I've heard a couple of people stating that, and I remember  
> that AT THE TIME, it was rather poorly compared to offerings 
> from GDW itself, FASA, the Keith's outfit, etc.  However, I 
> managed to pick up Ley Sector, Glimmerdrift Sector, and one 
> other Judge's Guild thing a year or so ago. 

I have the 4 Judge's Guild sectors (Ley Sector, Glimmerdrift Reaches, 
Gateway Sector, and Maranantha-Alkahest).  They are non-canon, but 
they weren't BAD products...  Probably worth getting if you find a 
deal...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:26:22 -0800
Subject: Imperium Games Page

For those who haven't visited it today, there is a sample of the new 
character sheet up on the webpage today...

Looks a lot like the TNE sheet, with some obvious changes...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 00:57:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Rolling a 707 (Td V96 #305)

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> All I have to say is that whatzhisface (test pilot guy) rolled a 707 over
> Seafair here in Seattle some time back.

That was "Tex" Johnson, Chief Test Pilot for Boeing at the time (and that
time was quite a while ago - it was when the 707 was brand-new).  One
interesting factoid about that stunt: although it nearly caused the Boeing
executives watching to have heart attacks, it certainly sold the airplane to
the pilots in the audience.

The roll he performed wasn't the same style of roll that you usually see in
airshows (where the plane rolls about it's long axis, with the center of the
roll going through the center of the plane).  Instead, he rolled the plane
around the surface of an imaginary cylinder (the axis of the roll was
outside, above the plane but parallel to it).

The reason for this is that 1) Boeing jetliners aren't stressed for heavy
negative G's (the 747 is only designed for -1G), and 2) the instruments
installed weren't designed for inverted flight - they'd all go out if the
707 pulled negative Gs.  The type of roll that "Tex" performed keeps the
plane in positive Gs all the way around (even though the plane goes inverted
at the top of the roll) due to centripetal force.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #306
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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 4 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 307

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Nitpick on Judge's Guild
         2. T4 Licenses
         3. Re: Rolling a 707 (Td V96 #305)
         4. Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)
         5. T4 Hardcover
         6. Re: Imperium Games page
         7. T4 Character Sheets
         8. Vehicle Design System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 09:20:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Nitpick on Judge's Guild

To be perfectly honest, JG material for *any* game, be it D&D or Traveller
or whatever, were always of a mixed quality, both in content and in
presentation.  Some good, some bad, most mediocre.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:04:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: T4 Licenses

Hello,

>From what I've heard, Gold Rush Games, and Paranoia Press both have license
to produce T4 materials, and DGP is also trying to get this license as well
so that they can republish old material as well as new things.

Thanks,

Peter Miller

	----------     This Message is From Either...   ----------

Tom Miller * Liverpool List * Genealogy * http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/	
Peter Miller * New Frontiers * RPG * PBeMs * Homepage down temporarily *

	----------      E-MAIL: scouse@inforamp.net     ----------


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 10:21:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Rolling a 707 (Td V96 #305)

At 12:57 am 8/3/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> All I have to say is that whatzhisface (test pilot guy) rolled a 707 over
>> Seafair here in Seattle some time back.
>
>That was "Tex" Johnson, Chief Test Pilot for Boeing at the time (and that
>time was quite a while ago - it was when the 707 was brand-new).  One
>interesting factoid about that stunt: although it nearly caused the Boeing
>executives watching to have heart attacks, it certainly sold the airplane to
>the pilots in the audience.

        I remember this now! Air & Space Magazine had an article about the
707 a while back. The president of Boeing had a bunch of airline execs on a
houseboat trying to sell them the plane, and he'd arranged for a FLYBY by
the 707. The pilot was fired for his stunt, until all the orders started
pouring in from impressed airlines and they forgave him.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: James Lowry <jlowry@tfb.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 10:46 PDT
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)

At 10:26 AM 8/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Remember, Star Trek (in all forms), Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica,
>> Buck Rogers, etc *all* have the decks laid out *parallel* to the thrust
>> axis. Babylon 5 doesn't, but it isn't *obvious* that it isn't. So to
>> all but us "old folks", this will be a "new" idea.
>> 
>>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>Every issue of challenge, every adventure or double adventure, every
>supplement, magazine, etc. originaally got my bucks by having one,
>sometimes simple deckplan in it.  They are almost all horizontal, usually
>quite usable and accurate (exception: Where on the King Richard (from
>FASA's Action Aboard) do they put all the fuel, drives, etc?!?) and let me
>showcase a different ship every two or three  sessions.
>
>You can argue for vertically oriented decks, but give me my traveller
>ships!  Hell, I've imported ship designs from other venues, which usually
>use horizontal decks, for traveller several times...I'm sure I'm not the
>only one who came up for stats on the Battleship Yamato (or
>Argo...Wildstar??) or the Battlestar Galactica, or even the Eagle modular 
>cutter from Space:1999.
>
>Other arguments exist, and I think in the Real World(tm) ships would
>probably be oiented as you feel they sould, but I am not the first to
>point out that traveller is *not* the real world.   
>
        Actually, I can tell you why some ships use horizontal decks.  And
of course, people get used to those, so other ships imitate them...and so on.
        Anyway, take a look at the Type S scout.  It is a lot easier to land
a ship like that horzontaly than vertically, and it's kind'a convienient
that the deck goes the same way as the ground, especially since the grav
generators shut down when you take out the keys...

	James Lowry

	"They do.  They move faster than light."
	"I think you improve the tale.  Our theory says this cannot be."
	"Maybe we use different theories."
	--Larry Niven, Ringworld


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 13:31:33 -0500
Subject: T4 Hardcover

If the Imperium Games homepage is to be believed, there are only 800
hardcover Traveller books left.

I don't see 'em lasting much past GenCon, if they're out by then. So if you
want one, I'd get it ASAP.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Imperium Games page

Sadly, my web browser is (shudder) lynx and I won't be a GenCon to pick 
up a copy of T4.  So I was wondering if to ease my wait until T4 arrives 
in stores if some kind soul could email me a uuencoded file of the 
character sheet gif on IGs web page.  I can tell it's there,, but lynx 
won't allow me to get to it :(

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 14:01:47 -0500
Subject: T4 Character Sheets

>------------------------------
>
>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:26:22 -0800
>Subject: Imperium Games Page
>
>For those who haven't visited it today, there is a sample of the new
>character sheet up on the webpage today...
>
>Looks a lot like the TNE sheet, with some obvious changes...

Is it just me, or does the typeface seem *awfully* familiar (and NOT to TNE)!
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^
Yippeeee! :-)

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 14:43:49 -0600
Subject: Vehicle Design System

OK, after hitting a couple of piecemeal comments, I've decided to go through
systematically. My reference here is QSDS/SSDS -- those are already
published, with agreed-upon rules, so they shouldn't be contradicted by
something new. Otherwise you wind up with the MegaTraveller fiasco -- errata
after errata. Not that the new rules can't EXPAND the scope of the QSDS/SSDS
rules, but they shouldn't CONTRADICT. For the record, QSDS/SSDS were given
as a base rule to use Fire, Fusion and Steel with a few simple modifications
        - Thruster plates are standard tech; base cost is 25% of FF&S
        - Fusion plants below TL12 have 10x the listed minimum volume
        - ContraGravity goes back to the MegaTraveller definition --
provides both lift and thrust.

        Did I forget any?


*****NOTE*****

Before flaming me for trying to force Fire, Fusion and Steel down anybody's
throats: I'M NOT!  What I'm trying to do is make sure that the vehicle
system doesn't contradict the ALREADY PUBLISHED spacecraft design sequence
for T4. Those sequences happened to be based on modified FF&S. While
designing SSDS I specifically asked about weapons, armor and combat changes,
thinking they were sure to change, and was told to stick with FF&S, that
whatever followed would be compatible and wouldn't invalidate SSDS. Mostly
I'm just commenting on areas that are incompatible with SSDS/QSDS.

**************

Here goes:

General comments
================
        - Don't use displacement tons for vehicles, use m3.
        - I'd still recommend not worrying about spacecraft, even small
ones, in the vehicle rules. Vehicles should include those craft designed
primarily for use in a planetary environment. I know, grav vehicles can make
it into low orbit, but contragrav rapidly drops in effectiveness as the
local gravity goes down. Spacecraft of any size should be covered in the
spacecraft rules. Otherwise we'll have an even worse patchwork of slighlty
incompatible rules.

====================
Armor
====================
We've been over this one several times -- changing how armor is defined and
rated invalidates the entire hull section of both QSDS and SSDS.

Also, the toughnesses listed don't match the ones used in QSDS/SSDS in some
cases, and the masses are off by a factor of 10. And why are the masses
given per SQUARE meter? Or are you just assuming the 1cm thickness? Don't do
this -- density is based on VOLUME. And even so, the masses don't always match

>TL   Material       Toughness of 1cm        Mass per m2
>4    Soft steel*            3                .08t		
                               1.7                8t/m3
>5    Hard steel             5                .08t
                               2                  8t/m3
>6    Light alloy            2                .03t
                               1.7                6t/m3
>6    Fiber laminate*        1                .01t
                               0.25               1t/m3

6 Titanium alloy is missing    3                  8
>7    Light composite        6                .07t
                               4                  7
>8    Composite laminate     7                .08t		
                               6                  8
>10   Crystaliron            9                .10t
                               8                  10
>11   Structurecomp*         2                .01t
no equivalent, so it can't be wrong -- except make the mass per m3
>12   Superdense             11               .15t
                               14                 15
>14   Bonded sd              13               .15t
                               28                 15
>17   Coherent sd            15               .15t
                               40                 15
====================
Fuel Cells
====================

Again, IIRC there were fuel cells already published in SSDS/QSDS (I've
temporarily misplaced my copy of what went out, so I can't swear). The TL7
fuel cell should have an efficiency of 0.5MW per m3 instead of 0.4.
Otherwise anybody who designs vehicles would be stupid not to grab an
SSDS/QSDS fuel cell instead. Also, the min vols were greater, and the fuel
requirement was more

GENERAL NOTE: Don't tell me how much fuel it takes for 100hrs. Give it to me
per hour. Nobody designs cars to run for 100hrs.

Mass for TL6 and TL7 fission plants is off from FF&S, but I don't think any
of those were included in SSDS

====================
Fusion Plants
====================

Fusion plants are wrong compared to the ones used in SSDS. Again, anybody
with brains will pull the ones out of SSDS. Correct values are

     MW per   Mass    MCr     Min Vol/    Fuel
TL   m3       per m3  per m3  Min Pwr     kl/YR
9    2.0      4.0     0.2     1000/2000   0.15
10   2.0      4.0     0.2     500/1000    0.15
11   2.0      4.0     0.2     200/400     0.15
12   2.0      4.0     0.2     10/20       0.15
13   3.0      3.0     0.2     1/3         0.1
14   3.0      3.0     0.2     0.25/0.75   0.1
15   6.0      2.0     0.2     0.1/0.6     0.1
16   7.0      1.0     0.2     0.075/0.525 0.1

====================
Storage Banks
====================
While storage banks aren't specifically mentioned in SSDS, one type
(Homopolar Generators) was used in the design of all the weapons -- the
impact is that all the weapons designs are off. Of course, this is assuming
storage banks are the generic replacement for both batteries and
HPGs/Capacitors. There's no other mention of accumulator-type devices in the
rules.

====================
Contra Grav
====================
The values for contragrav differ from the agreed-upon values used to
generate the charts for SSDS. The change back to lift+thrust is there, but
the specific values are different. Not only that, but an entire category is
missing. Again, this breaks ship design.

Here's the table I sent Greg then (beginning of June):

>                          Volume      Mass   Power   Cost     Min Vol
>   Type             TL  m^3/tonne-th  t/m^3  MW/m^3  MCr/m^3  m^3
>   -----------      --  ------------  -----  ------  -------  -------
>   Standard          9     0.0333      0.4    0.3      0.02     1
>   Improved         10     0.02        0.3    0.2      0.025    0.3
>   High Efficiency  12     0.02        0.2    0.1      0.03     0.03

====================
Thruster Plates
====================
Again, the values shown in the draft vehicle document are NOT the values
that went into both SSDS and QSDS, straight from FF&S except the price was
changed. Changing them means both the basic book and the starships book have
built-in errors, and need correcting via errata. That was the biggest strike
against MegaTraveller, and certainly won't help T4.

 TL	Thrust    Power   Mass    Min v/       Cost      Area
        per m3    per m3  per m3  min thrust   per m3	 per m3
Vehicle 33t       .83Mw   1.65t   1.0m3/33t    .200MCr   .35m2	
Q/SSDS  40t       1.0     2.0     not given    MCr0.250  0.20m2

===================
Life Support
===================
Once again, these numbers are completely different. While QSDS/SSDS didn't
have any TL variations in space & mass, that's not necessarily a problem.
You could just say QSDS/SSDS used only TL9 life support for simplicity, and
allow improvements with TL. But the TL9 values should agree!

Also, instead of telling me how much volume is supported per m3 of life
support, tell me how much life support I need for 1m3. After all, what if I
need a different volume? Saying 1m3 of life support covers 1700m3 of ship
doesn't really help me if I've got a 2800m3 ship. I'd rather be able to
multiply 2800m3 by a simple factor, and know how much life support I need.

Here's the numbers from SSDS (in your format). These should be the base
values at TL9, and you can go up from there:

          Volume covered  Mass per   Power   Cost
          per m3          m3 of LS   per m3  per m3
Basic     200m3           1t         0.02MW  MCr0.06
Advanced  125m3           1t         0.025MW MCr0.0625

===================
Gravity Compensators
===================
These also don't have TL variations in SSDS; again that can be explained by
picking the lowest TL, and saying that for simplicity all grav compensators
in SSDS were built at that TL. But the values AT THAT TL STILL HAVE TO
MATCH! Also note that SSDS didn't have it depend on number of G's
compensated -- the volume was the same, but the MAXIMUM number of G's
compensated went up with TL. In other words, at TL 12, any installation
could compensate 3Gs -- you didn't buy a 1G or 2G installation, they ALL did
3Gs. At TL10, all you could get was 1G.

I do like that you've got the values here as a factor per m3 of coverage --
be consistent and make all tables like that.

Per SSDS, the values should be

    Volume per m3  Mass    Power   Cost
TL  protected      per m3  per m3  per m3
10   0.01          2t      0.5MW   MCr0.05

Max G's vs TL:
10      1G
11      2G
12      3G
13      4G
14      5G
15      6G
16      7G
18      8G
20      9G

====================
Communicators
====================
Your power requirements are too low and your volumes are too high. Not for
reality, I'm not addressing that. But they again don't match up with the
ones used in SSDS/QSDS. The tightbeam (laser/maser) and jammer rules also
don't mesh with what's in SSDS/QSDS. And where are meson communicators

====================
Sensors
====================
Same comments as above. You're invalidating every single electronics package
in SSDS/QSDS. And I really hate range bands. The rules used to generate the
components in SSDS/QSDS are in FF&S, pp49-55


*******************************************************
Summary
*******************************************************

The following things HAVE to be fixed one way or another: either declare the
basic book and the starships book wrong, and all the existing ship designs
built under them wrong, publishing errata for them, or change the vehicle
design system.

ARMOR
FUEL CELLS (maybe)
FUSION PLANTS
CONTRAGRAVITY
THRUSTER PLATES
LIFE SUPPORT
GRAVITY COMPENSATORS
COMMUNICATORS
SENSORS
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #307
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 5 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 308

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)
         2. Re: Horizontal deckplans
         3. Slag! and other stuff
         4. Re: Adventure Seed
         5. Re: Horizontal deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:24:45 PST
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)

In mail you write:

>         Actually, I can tell you why some ships use horizontal decks.  And
> of course, people get used to those, so other ships imitate them...and so on.
>         Anyway, take a look at the Type S scout.  It is a lot easier to land
> a ship like that horzontaly than vertically, and it's kind'a convienient
> that the deck goes the same way as the ground, especially since the grav
> generators shut down when you take out the keys...

This *is* somewhat reasonable. HTHL and even VTHL craft will use
horizontal decks. But having the thrust axis running at right angles to
the deck *is* a safety hazard. And since the Type-S only has what? A 2g
drive? You can even have people asking "Why are there rungs on the
ceiling of the main passage?" 

The answer, of course, is that they are for getting around if the
compensators are out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 11:11:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Horizontal deckplans

I seem to recall that one of the arguments in favor of decks 
perpendicular to the axis of thrust (I'll call these vertical deckplans) 
had to do with compensating G-forces, or something.
But wouldn't that be moot, given artificial gravity and inertial 
compensators? or do these devices not work to well?.
perhaps vertical deckplans are more apt for military vessels intended to 
undergo evasive maneuvers. these vessels wouldn't be intended to dock 
(unlike cargo craft) on planets, so the point about the decks being 
parralel with the ground, would be moot; if the inertial comps had any 
lag time (ie., it took a nanosecond to adjust to the new direction during 
evasive), then perhaps the vertical deckplans might mitigate some of the 
violence. Azhanti High Lightning, I note, used vertical deckplans. Of 
course, a ship REALLY designed for evasive maneuvers -the gazelle class 
and its brethren - uses horizontal deckplans.
Perhaps, also, it's a size issue. larger ships aren't intended to enter a 
gravity well anyway, so as before the 'decks-parallel-to-ground' 
consideration doesn't hold. More importantly, the decks provide natural 
bulkheads for sealing sections off. On a cylindrical (eg) hull, the 
horizontal decks only divide up *very large* sections, and you'd have to 
make a bunch of extra bulkheads in each deck, to get manageably small 
sections. again, perhaps not so much concern except in a warship. . .
Then again, (Dammit Jim!) I'm a philosopher, not an engineer!
Devon Belcher
Dept. of Philosophy
University of Colorado, Boulder

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:53:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Slag! and other stuff

Hi,

Just in case anyone is wondering whether I followed up on the leads to 
the Slag! starship combat game....

I went to Games Plus, a somewhat-local RPG store.  I've shopped there 
several times before, and I've enjoyed the experience each time.  They 
have lots of out-of-print items (including a copy of T:NE boxed edition, 
until I bought it last time I was there :), and a great selection of 
current items.

I looked around a bit for Slag!, but couldn't find it immediately in their 
rather large selection of RPG items.  Being lazy, I asked the clerk 
whether they had it.  He said, "It's over here in our new item area," 
helpfully leading me to the place.  I picked it up, thanked him, and asked 
whether he had another product which I'd seen reviewed favorably in the 
last issue of Shadis.  The response I got shocked me.

The product in question is perhaps not the most tasteful product ever 
made in the gaming industry.  But, the review in Shadis was favorable, 
and recommended it not as a game to /play/, but to /read/, as it was 
"laugh-out-loud funny."  I had decided this was something I wanted to 
have.  Thus, my inquiry. (The game in question is called "HOL.")

What the clerk said when I asked for that product was that they did not 
carry it because the owner objeced to the material included in it.  The 
clerk added that he objected to it as well.  I replied that it seemed, 
to me (from reading the review), to be a good parody of RPG's.  The 
clerk seemed surprised at this thought, and granted that could possibly 
be so.  (I inferred that he had probably not read the book.)

Anyway, I was shocked at this.   After spending my early teen years being 
told by hobby shop owners, book store owners, and adults in general that 
my hobby was inherently "Satanic," and definitely bad for my mental 
health and the fate of my immortal soul, I was not ready to see such 
abundant ignorance displayed in a game store.

Now, I'm not saying the owner of that store does not have a right to 
refuse to sell certain products.  He most certainly does.  He is no part of 
the government, so it is not censorship.  Nonetheless, the idea apalled me.

Prior to being shown where Slag! was, I'd picked up a few other items.  
But after consulting with my (equally shocked) wife, we decided it would 
be best not to spend our money in that store ever again.  Again, not 
because we felt the owner was doing something legally or morally wrong.  
Rather, we made our decision because we did not agree with his ethical 
stance.  "Vote with your dollars," as they say.

So, I put the items back where I had found them, and we left.

Now I am more determined than ever to get a copy of HOL, of course. ;)  

I wonder whether any luddites out there will ban Traveller from their 
shops... "Why, it's liable to give kids the idea that we should be 
spendin' money on that boondoggle of a space program!"

Anyway, I'll look for Slag! and HOL at GenCon.  If I can't get them there, 
I'll order from one of the folks I know who sell RPG stuff through the 
Internet.


- -Joe
p.s.  To the bit-hawks out there who watch how we all use this space and 
notify us of wastefulness, I apologize for the inconvenience.  This 
encounter upset me, and I thought it was important enough to share with 
you.  If you disagree, then again I apologize.  
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> >All I have to say is that whatzhisface (test pilot guy) rolled a 707 over
> >Seafair here in Seattle some time back.
>
>         Well, yeah, my assumption rests on the pilot being right. But
> personally, I'd rather have the pilot be able to do what he wants, and risk
> crashing, than going down KNOWING the pilot could pull out if the computer
> let him.

I wasn't disagreeing with you (in fact, I heartily agree with you).  I
just haven't decided whether its a good or a bad thing that a Boeing 707
is design-capable (i.e. he didn't bend the wings, as in David Golden's
earlier example) of doing a roll.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 03:09:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Horizontal deckplans

Of course, the *real* determining factor of whether to make 
vertical or horizontal decks has been ease of displaying 
on a page. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 5 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 309

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Horizontal Decks
         2. Re: Horizontal deckplans
         3. IG on the wrong track?
         4. Re: Slag! and other stuff
         5. Re: Firing Test Pilots (Td V96#307)
         6. New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare
         7. Re: Adventure Seed (Td V96 #308)
         8. Re: New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare
         9. Optimism Was: (IG On the Wrong Track?)
        10. Re: Slag! and other stuff
        11. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)
        12. Re: Slag! and other stuff -Reply
        13. Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)
        14. Interstellar Commercial Regulation
        15. Space 1889 Reference

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 00:20:06 +1300
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

From: James Lowry <jlowry@tfb.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 10:46 PDT
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)

At 10:26 AM 8/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Other arguments exist, and I think in the Real World(tm) ships would
>>probably be oiented as you feel they sould, but I am not the first to
>>point out that traveller is *not* the real world.
>>
>        Actually, I can tell you why some ships use horizontal decks.  And
>of course, people get used to those, so other ships imitate them...and so on.
>        Anyway, take a look at the Type S scout.  It is a lot easier to land
>a ship like that horzontaly than vertically, and it's kind'a convienient
>that the deck goes the same way as the ground, especially since the grav
>generators shut down when you take out the keys...

But for ships that don't need to land, where would be the advantage in
this? (you won't be taking the keys out!). A ship that has few decks that
are long would feel "bigger" and more spaceous than one with many smaller
decks. Maybe the early designers picked up on this fact and designed the
subserquent ships with this in mind.

The X-Boat tender is one ship that I know of that has it's decks in a
vertical arrangement (ie. not alined with the long axis of the ship or
thrust). I'm guessing that this was chosen to facilitate maximum room for
the docking hold thing.

Another point is there is less space wasted in having longer decks as
opposed to the shorter, smaller decks (ie less bulkhead, bracing etc..) in
needed.








------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 06:55:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Horizontal deckplans

On  5 Aug 96 at 3:09, John H Bogan Jr spewed:

> Of course, the *real* determining factor of whether to make 
> vertical or horizontal decks has been ease of displaying 
> on a page. 

Loren Wiseman posted several weeks ago that it was an aesthetic 
decision on Marc's part.  

Suspect you hit the nail on the head...

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 16:49:46 +0200
Subject: IG on the wrong track?

Is it me or does the T4 seem to lack cooperation. There
seems to be very sloppy planing. Greg doesn't know what
Don is doing and so forth. I think that if T4 is going to 
sell something has to be done. The discussions here dosn't 
seem to offer to much of promise, when guys an the lists
has to correct the design team of IG.

Sorry for this frustration, but it has been building up
and the way things are going, it doesn't really look like
I'll buy any of the new stuff, even though I was looking
forward to more Traveller information.

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:44:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Slag! and other stuff

Joe Walsh writes:

<snip>

>The product in question is perhaps not the most tasteful product ever 
>made in the gaming industry. <snip> (The game in question is called
>"HOL.")

   You're being a bit more than kind.  Here's a description I found on the
Internet of a HoL scenario somebody is going to be running during
PhoenixCon:

B-119-2 HoL: "He Ate the HoL Thing." The Church and Munch starship
"All You Can Eat" has sent a distress signal. Its origin: the HoL, Human
occupied Landfill! As this vessel is scheduled to cater the MegaPope's
birthday party, he has authorized the following statement: "Any
individuals who can get the cargo off-planet intact will get a  FULL
PARDON!" Characters provided. Novice level, 6 players. GM John Moore.

   <sarcasm alert> Gee, *nothing* sacrilegious in that....

   The description also indicates that the scenario is for individuals 18
and over.

>What the clerk said when I asked for that product was that they did not 
>carry it because the owner objected to the material included in it.  The 
>clerk added that he objected to it as well.

   As is their US Constitutionally guaranteed right, whether that decision
was made in ignorance or not.

>I replied that it seemed,  to me (from reading the review), to be a good
>parody of RPG's.

   Analogous to Paranoia then (having never actually seen HoL)?
In some ways, I could see where they just don't get the joke.  Some
people get totally turned off by bathroom humor or dead baby jokes, and
some people can't stand religious humor (and frequently those that don't
like the latter, don't the either of the former either).

   Something else to consider.  If this game is normally intended for adults,
keeping the game in a store where the average age of the customer is
below 18 can be a big problem.  It could be that the game store owner
doesn't so much object to the content of the game as he doesn't want
the hassle of controlling access to it by minors.  Certainly he wouldn't
want to take the phone call of an irate parent who's little Billy (or
whatever) had been sold the game by accident.

   If I were you, I would call the game store and ask to speak to the
owner.  Get it straight from him why he doesn't offer the game for sale,
and let him know why you feel it necessary to take your business
elsewhere.  It could be there are other issues involved than just religious
or moral.  If nothing else, he will realize that his stand is costing him
business.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 13:36:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Firing Test Pilots (Td V96#307)

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
> >That was "Tex" Johnson, Chief Test Pilot for Boeing at the time
> 
> The president of Boeing had a bunch of airline execs on a
> houseboat trying to sell them the plane, and he'd arranged for a FLYBY by
> the 707. The pilot was fired for his stunt, until all the orders started
> pouring in from impressed airlines and they forgave him.

It's important to note that the time this required was such that "Tex" was
re-instated by the time he'd landed the plane.  ;-)

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:05:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare

In Robert Heinlien's book, The Door into Summer, the author postulates
that
electronics in the near future will contain large amounts of Gold.  After
a few years of hitting "mother Lodes" gold has become almost as cheap as
copper, and is a better conductor besides.

Not knowing the science behind this, but appreciating the concept, I was
wondering what applications will arise from the presence of large amounts
of materials which, in our present day, are only available in small
quantities and are therefore too expensive for everyday use.

Two examples come to mind immediately;

Diamonds; We already have (TL8) the ability to "make" diamonds.  I am not
certain what the process is, but it stands to reason that either we will
make this process quicker and cheaper, or will find large natural deposits
somewhere off-planet.  The usual applications of diamonds are in lasers
and cutting tools.  Will everyone have diamond bladed knives in their
kithcens for cutting tomatos? (or is it tomatoes?)  The edge will never
(well almost never) become dull or rust, the material has no crevices for
nasty germs, however, you need our new diamond coated cutting board
(wooden boards don't last more than a few weeks) [only 19.95cr, call
now!].

Some other now expensive, someday cheap items;

Liquid gasses (Nitrogen, helium, hydrogen) from gas giant mining/skimming.
Energy (fusion+)
Radioactive metal ores
Monstrous data storage capabilities (were facing some of this now) 
Vacuum

Pete


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 14:17:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (Td V96 #308)

Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> I just haven't decided whether its a good or a bad thing that a Boeing 707
> is design-capable of doing a roll.

It's not (that's why the executives all practically had heart-attacks).
However, the particular maneuver that the pilot chose wasn't any more
stressful for the plane that a sustained 2G turn.

ObTraveller: This is why someone who is a Pilot-6 should be able to make a
skill roll and save your starship's bacon where a Pilot-2 wouldn't be able
to handle it.  Skills are important.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:57:41 GMT
Subject: Re: New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare

On Aug 05, 1996 13:05:56, '"Peter  H. Brenton"
<pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>' wrote: 
 
>In Robert Heinlien's book, The Door into Summer, the author postulates 
>that 
>electronics in the near future will contain large amounts of Gold.  After 
>a few years of hitting "mother Lodes" gold has become almost as cheap as 
>copper, and is a better conductor besides. 
 
They do.  What do you think the wires connecting the chip to the pin 
outs are? 
 
>Not knowing the science behind this, but appreciating the concept, I was 
>wondering what applications will arise from the presence of large amounts 
>of materials which, in our present day, are only available in small 
>quantities and are therefore too expensive for everyday use. 
> 
>Two examples come to mind immediately; 
 
>Diamonds; We already have (TL8) the ability to "make" diamonds.  I am not 
>certain what the process is, but it stands to reason that either we will 
>make this process quicker and cheaper, or will find large natural deposits

>somewhere off-planet.  The usual applications of diamonds are in lasers 
>and cutting tools.  Will everyone have diamond bladed knives in their 
>kithcens for cutting tomatos? (or is it tomatoes?)  The edge will never 
>(well almost never) become dull or rust, the material has no crevices for 
>nasty germs, however, you need our new diamond coated cutting board 
>(wooden boards don't last more than a few weeks) [only 19.95cr, call 
>now!]. 
 
We have found large natural deposits ON-planet.  Industrial diamonds 
are relatively cheap; the price of gem-quality diamonds is held 
artificially high by the diamond cartel.  If the supply of gem-diamonds 
wasn't tightly controlled, diamonds wouldn't cost much more than 
amethysts or pearls, if that much.   
 
And diamond-dust coated sharpening rods are a standard fixture 
in cutlery stores... I own a pair myself.  We don't use diamond 
as a cutting edge because it is *brittle*.  A diamond-bladed knife 
would have problems with shattering with sharp blows.  It's 
diamond DUST that is used for cutting--as an abrasive that will 
abrade ANYTHING.  And diamond dust is getting cheaper, and appearing 
in more consumer applications (cf. sharpening rods mentioned above). 
 
                          --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:53:40 -0800
Subject: Optimism Was: (IG On the Wrong Track?)

On  5 Aug 96 at 16:49, Tommy Grav spewed:

> Is it me or does the T4 seem to lack cooperation. There
> seems to be very sloppy planing. Greg doesn't know what

Quite the opposite, if anything.  They've flown the most 
controversial bits past an audience (us) to see what we thought, and 
other than that they've basically met deadlines as planned...  How 
many gaming companies have EVER done that...

> Don is doing and so forth. I think that if T4 is going to 
> sell something has to be done. The discussions here dosn't 

Yeah, get some books on the shelves...  

> seem to offer to much of promise, when guys an the lists
> has to correct the design team of IG.

Doubtful that Don is going to know a whole lot about what Greg is 
doing...  I don't really sense a problem unless Ken & Marc don't know 
what Greg & Don are doing...and make certain that what they are doing will 
work together well...

Actually, IG really didn't discuss much with us here...if you think 
about it...  They floated some of the most controversial points by 
us:  Weapons, Skill Lists, Ship Design.  They mentioned what the 
character classes were, and the skill list for the basic rulebook, and 
listened to us kick them around for a few weeks...

The other thing they did was to float their ideas for ship design by 
us, and we (or more precisely, David & Guy with input from others) 
came up with some alternatives (SSDS & QSDS).

I don't see much that they've done wrong, or much that they've done 
right for that matter...and none of us will for sure, until we see 
the rulebook in August, and the books that Don & Greg are working 
for.  

These are experienced people.  Frankly, there's as much talent here 
(if not more) than there was in the early days at GDW...  Let's see 
what they publish before we go look for a ledge to jump off of...

A neighbor of mine, who has been a rabid AD&D player for years, knows 
a few members of IG's staff, both in meeting/speaking with them, and 
by reputation.  When I mentioned a few of the names associated with 
this effort, he was impressed...

To be honest, the players made the game what it was the first time.  If 
they come out with a solid, mistake free rules book, we'll be the 
ones who carry the ball to success again.

> Sorry for this frustration, but it has been building up
> and the way things are going, it doesn't really look like
> I'll buy any of the new stuff, even though I was looking
> forward to more Traveller information.

Jeez, guys...  Let's not panic until we see what the main rulebook 
looks like, at least...  I know that we're all waiting until the book 
hits the store, or (for those drooling fanboys like myself, who 
preordered) hits our mailbox.  Until then, let's not panic.

You have no reason to panic...  As far as we know the book is 
virtually bug free, and well written...  I have no reason to be optimistic, 
other than having been impressed by every incident in which I've come in 
contact with IG's employees, and with the way they've listened to us, 
and sought opinion where they thought it was necessary (and frankly, 
not sought opinion when they didn't think it was necessary).  If IG 
took every suggestion that the 500 or so members of the 2 mailing 
lists they'd have a rulebook that approximated the size of the 
Encyclopedia Brittanica, and would be just about as readable and 
enjoyable...

On the other hand, it could be a bag of bugs that will make MT look 
like a work of art...  Until we see it, we just won't know... 

Frankly, I'm not going to be all that upset even if I don't like the 
main rulebook.  I'll just take the ideas I like from the other sourcebooks, 
and incorporate them into the rules I use now (sort of a CT/MT hybrid)...

Let's see what happens before we panic...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:53:40 -0800
Subject: Re: Slag! and other stuff

On  5 Aug 96 at 12:44, Harold D. Hale spewed:

>    As is their US Constitutionally guaranteed right, whether that decision
> was made in ignorance or not.

Granted, as it is Joe's right to decide not to buy from them again...

>    Analogous to Paranoia then (having never actually seen HoL)?
> In some ways, I could see where they just don't get the joke.  Some
> people get totally turned off by bathroom humor or dead baby jokes, and
> some people can't stand religious humor (and frequently those that don't
> like the latter, don't the either of the former either).

Yup...of course these are the same types who often rail about RPG's 
in general, and Fantasy RPG's in general being EVIL and SATANIC...  I 
wonder how the dealer would reconcile that with his stand on Hol...

>    Something else to consider.  If this game is normally intended for adults,
> keeping the game in a store where the average age of the customer is
> below 18 can be a big problem.  It could be that the game store owner
> doesn't so much object to the content of the game as he doesn't want
> the hassle of controlling access to it by minors.  Certainly he wouldn't
> want to take the phone call of an irate parent who's little Billy (or
> whatever) had been sold the game by accident.

So you stick it behind the counter, and don't sell it to somebody 
under 18, without ID or something...  If I were looking for something 
and a shop owner (or for that matter, 1 of his employees) came off as 
moralizing about it, that would be the end of my relationship with that 
shop, regardless of his motives...  

Sadly, I don't think I've been in a game store in about 15 years 
whose average customer was under 18...although with CCG's being a 
rage, I suppose it is possible...

>    If I were you, I would call the game store and ask to speak to the
> owner.  Get it straight from him why he doesn't offer the game for sale,
> and let him know why you feel it necessary to take your business
> elsewhere.  It could be there are other issues involved than just religious
> or moral.  If nothing else, he will realize that his stand is costing him
> business.

This, however, would be a good idea...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 15:49:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

"Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who came up for stats on the Battleship
> Yamato (or Argo...Wildstar??) or the Battlestar Galactica, or even the
> Eagle modular cutter from Space:1999.

That's "Space Cruiser Yamato" to you.  ;-)

I believe that Scott Kellogg may have done the stats for Battleship Yamato
(which would be the WWII incarnation of the ship), back when he did the MT
stats for all sorts of things like that.

> I think I'll try to usse the SSDS to make up stats for the Milennium
> Falcon tonight... (hmmm 5G, Jump 4, two laser turrets, small cargo area,
> various concealed small arm defencses, TL13 design with TL15 components)

You'll find that the QSDS 300-ton hull is nearly a perfect match for the
Falcon.  I worked out from a scale model that the Falcon is, in Traveller
terms, about a 300-ton ship (314, if you want to be precise).  I made it
streamlined, because the Falcon has demonstrated that it's quite
maneuverable in an atmosphere as well as in space.

I stressed the QSDS 300-ton hull to 4G, because that was what seemed most
reasonable at TL-10 (which is what all QSDS hulls are built at).  Remember
to install Military-standard fire control and laser turrets, and give them
enough power.

I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the
deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader) somewhere.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.ahp.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 16:02:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Slag! and other stuff -Reply

>From Stuart Dollar: 
>Yup...of course these are the same types who often rail about RPG's  in
>general, and Fantasy RPG's in general being EVIL and SATANIC...  I 
>wonder how the dealer would reconcile that with his stand on Hol...

Yeah, but you have to admit that being able to conjure up demons from
hell to do your bidding is pretty satanic. Besides the fact that I like
science-fiction better than fantasy, that was one of the big reasons I
abandoned AD&D for Traveller years ago, and have never looked back. 
OTOH, there are other FRPGs out there that come from another
perspective, Middle-Earth Role Playing comes to mind, as well as
DragonRaid, which is a distinctly Christian role-playing game
(http://www.alaska.net/~cass/draid/draid.html,
http://associate.com/Innovative/DragonRaid/index.html). 

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:06:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks (was Re: Accomodations Volume/Deckplan Grids)

On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >         Actually, I can tell you why some ships use horizontal decks.  And
> > of course, people get used to those, so other ships imitate them...and so on.
> >         Anyway, take a look at the Type S scout.  It is a lot easier to land
> > a ship like that horzontaly than vertically, and it's kind'a convienient
> > that the deck goes the same way as the ground, especially since the grav
> > generators shut down when you take out the keys...
> 
> This *is* somewhat reasonable. HTHL and even VTHL craft will use
> horizontal decks. But having the thrust axis running at right angles to
> the deck *is* a safety hazard. And since the Type-S only has what? A 2g
> drive? You can even have people asking "Why are there rungs on the
> ceiling of the main passage?" 
> 
[snip]

Actually guys, this makes no sense whatsoever.

If we were talking about vessels with horizontal flight control surfaces
(which is I think what leonard is talking about) then there would be a
reason for horizontal decks (that is, with decks oriented at right angles
to the direction of thrust).  But most  Traveller ships seem to use brute
force to thrust into orbit with their thruster plates.

The Scout/Courier would not exist in a vertical deck world.  The ship
would instead be shaped like a pyramid with the thrusters in the center
of the bottom of the pyramid, the control room at the top (with pivoting
pilot couches for better viewing) cargo and air/raft doors oriented
"North" and "south" at the  lowestlevel (so they can load and unload at
ground level when landed).

Maybe there'd be an airframe scout/courier that looked more like what we
know, but that would be a different animal.

Pete 


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 14:16:10 -0700
Subject: Interstellar Commercial Regulation

Has anyone done any work on interstellar commercial/trade regulation?

In my campaign I created a powerful "engineers' guild."  I had to do this to
add a touch of reality for the player that thinks his stint as an engineer
with the navy 20 years ago ought to entitle him to handle the 138 year old
ship he is crewing.

Then I added some regulation on bare bones crew qualifications. Now my NPC
is aboard.

I'm wrestling with the rest of the regulation.  Once I started down the path
the questions kept coming.
Mark Ayers  mark@bbic.com
>From Gavin to Stephron and now back to Cleon I've seen 'em all.


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 5 Aug 96 14:45:13 MS
Subject: Space 1889 Reference

This note is really for Loren Wiseman, but if anyone else knows, please sing 
out.

Last night I was sorting through an old pile of Strategy & Tactics (pre T$R 
takeover).  Each issue of S&T and its sci-fi counterpart Ares had a series of 
propsed games; a brief paragraph or two describing a potential new product for 
ratings purposes.  In one of the issues there was a proposal called:

Space:1889

This thing reads suspisciously like a combination of Sky Galleons of Mars and 
Ironclads & Ether Flyers.  Defintely a wargame rather than an RPG.   Was this 
the secret birth of Space 1889?  Had Frank been carrying this idea around that 
long (this magazine was from 1981).

I'll try to remember to bring in the issue tomorrow so I can quote the 
description and give the actual issue number and date, but I was amused/pleased 
to see that in there.  I'll have to look carefully to see if there are any 
other suprises in these old magazines. Maybe there's a proposal for something 
called Star Vikings or Pirates of the Vistula somewhere in there :-)


Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #309
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 6 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 310

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Rare material No Longer Rare
         2. QSDS, SSDS, FF&S
         3. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)
         4. Re: New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare
         5. Re: QSDS, SSDS, FF&S
         6. Space: 1889 Reference
         7. Re: Interstellar Commercial Regulation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Rare material No Longer Rare

Actually, things have progressed much beyond diamond dust.  A while back 
some chemists invented a way to coat metal and other materials with a 
thin layer of diamond.  Unfortunately, it was quite expensive.  A year or 
so ago, someone invented a process (quite by accident) to do this much 
more cheaply.  Diamond coated steel is supposedly not brittle, and stays 
*vary* sharp a *very* long time.

Useful info on the more recent process can be found in the latest issue 
of either Asimov's SF Magazine or The Magazine of Fantasy & SF (I forget 
which) in a science article by Gregory Benford.  Fascinating reading, now 
stop to consider what a knife made from diamond coated superdense hull 
metal would be like :)  You could likely whittle and carve your way 
through TL 11- combat armor...


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:20:50 -0500
Subject: QSDS, SSDS, FF&S

OK, If I could get one post with all my answers, that would be great, but
I'll settle for multiple posts if I get my answers.

1.  What parts of FF&S were "fixed" in order to create SSDS and QSDS?

2.  What were the above mentioned "fixes?"

3.  What are the most recent versions of SSDS and QSDS?

4.  What are the "known errors" in QSDS and SSDS?

5.  What are the fixes for the known errors?

6.  Who has the time to answer some detailed questions about the design
process that I ran into?


Thanks for anyone and everyone that responds.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 21:51:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

On 08/05/96 at 03:49 PM,  Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> said:

>I worked out from a scale model that the Falcon is, in Traveller
>terms, about a 300-ton ship (314, if you want to be precise).  I made it
>streamlined, because the Falcon has demonstrated that it's quite
>maneuverable in an atmosphere as well as in space.

>I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the
>deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader) somewhere.

How about digging it up and posting it somewhere? <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 22:07:38 -0500
Subject: Re: New Topic:Rare materials no longer rare

On 08/05/96 at 06:57 PM,  cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
said:

>>In Robert Heinlien's book, The Door into Summer,

I remember it well!  The cat that kept going from door to door, because it
just *had* to be summer outside one of them. <g>

>>...the author postulates that electronics..will contain large
>>amounts of Gold. 

>They do.  What do you think the wires connecting the chip to the pin outs
>are? 

Not like RAH postulated though.  His technology predated the rise of
silicon.  Remember the "drafting table" his hero invented..and got cheated
out of.  <g>

Diamonds:

>We have found large natural deposits ON-planet.  Industrial diamonds  are
>relatively cheap; the price of gem-quality diamonds is held  artificially
>high by the diamond cartel. 

This is quite true.  We are also creating large quantities of
diamond, for industrial purposes, as well.

>And diamond-dust coated sharpening rods are a standard fixture  in cutlery
>stores... I own a pair myself.  

Sure, me too. 

>We don't use diamond as a cutting edge because it is *brittle*.  A
>diamond-bladed knife would have problems with shattering with sharp
>blows.

Diamond films are applied to blades (among other things) to improve cutting
ability.  The ability to create and apply diamond films to substrates has
been around for a few years now, and is becoming increasing useful.  

And you've already mentioned diamond dust. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 21:40:13 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS, SSDS, FF&S

At 09:20 pm 8/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>OK, If I could get one post with all my answers, that would be great, but
>I'll settle for multiple posts if I get my answers.
>
>1.  What parts of FF&S were "fixed" in order to create SSDS and QSDS?
>2.  What were the above mentioned "fixes?"

        - TL*50 limit on lasers was implicitly assumed in that no weapons
which exceeded it were provided in SSDS
        - Fusion power plant minimum size below TL12 was multiplied by 10 to
fit with Marc Miller's vision of "no small craft or space fighters" for
anybody but the emergent TL12 Imperium
        - ContraGravity went back to the CT/MT view of providing both lift
and thrust. To ease the transition, simply assume that the FF&S design
sequence provided just enough output to counteract the weight of the ship.
Since the design rules were based on a "m3 of CG per ton displacement"
assume one ton displacement masses 15 tonnes and hence a CG system designed
per FF&S will provide 15 tonnes of thrust per ton of ship displacement. 15
was chosen instead of 14 to make the division easier to get a "m3 of CG per
tonne of thrust" table.
        - Thruster plates have returned as the standard drive mechanism.
Mass, volume, power is the same as per FF&S; price is reduced to 25% of FF&S
level

>3.  What are the most recent versions of SSDS and QSDS?
>4.  What are the "known errors" in QSDS and SSDS?

        The most recent version is the one I sent to IG plus the errata
people found. I've removed the draft files from my site when I restructured,
and I don't have handy the list of errata

>5.  What are the fixes for the known errors?

        I sent some corrected tables and text to IG

>6.  Who has the time to answer some detailed questions about the design
>process that I ran into?

        Detailed no, but quick & dirty questions I can field after GenCon
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:10:27 -0400
Subject: Space: 1889 Reference

> Defintely a wargame rather than an RPG.   Was this the secret
> birth of Space 1889?

Not so secret. It was a running gag between GDW staf and SPI staff for
several years, each of us threatening to do the game. Then SPI went under,
and a few years passed, and we decided to do Space: 1889. 
 LKW

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 00:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Interstellar Commercial Regulation

Mark said:
>Has anyone done any work on interstellar commercial/trade regulation?
>
>In my campaign I created a powerful "engineers' guild."  I had to do this to
>add a touch of reality for the player that thinks his stint as an engineer
>with the navy 20 years ago ought to entitle him to handle the 138 year old
>ship he is crewing.
>
>Then I added some regulation on bare bones crew qualifications. Now my NPC
>is aboard.
>
>I'm wrestling with the rest of the regulation.  Once I started down the path
>the questions kept coming.

Could you elaborate on what you did in your campaign?  Rather than assign
skill levels to the ranks, I'd make characters pass tests at various
difficulties to earn the ranks - until I see the T4 task system, I don't
know exactly how hard to make them.  Make them pass 7 or 8 skill tests at
the difficulty level to simulate the long grueling examinations.  I'd also
throw in at having to pass (at lower difficulty levels) tests for at least
one or two other skills (taken from a short list) at before Journeyman rank
could be achieved.  And of course, they need to pass a difficult test to
actually earn the rank.

Depending on how noxious you want the guilds to be, you can charge big
bucks for the tests, require sponsorship by a current guildmember before a
character could get apprenticed, only offer tests once a year at a limited
number of locations, etc.

Depending on the culture, there might even be a morals clause "We can only
trust the care of the vital atmosphere generators to the Revered
Brotherhood..."


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Zathras have sad life; probably have sad death.  But, at least is symmetry..."

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #310
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From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #311
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 6 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 311

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Horizontal Decks
         2. Re: Space 1889 Reference
         3. Re: Rare materials no longer rare
         4. Ships of Solee Empire
         5. TNE Novels
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #308
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #308
         8. Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)
         9. HoriVerticule deckplans
        10. Rank names
        11. Re: Interstellar Commercial Regulation
        12. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)
        13. Re: Rank names
        14. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:25:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

Here's a good reason for horizontal decks (parallel to thrust):

If inertial compensators *do* give out during combat, everyone should be
seated facing forward (except some of the engineers, who are in the back
of the ship anyway). As has been pointed out earlier, it is better to be
lying down when taking multiple gees (which they would now be).

With decks facing the other way, seated people in the bridge would be
more prone to black out. You would have to make the control couches lie
flat, which would be inconvenient during normal operations.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:15:23 +1
Subject: Re: Space 1889 Reference

> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc

> Last night I was sorting through an old pile of Strategy & Tactics
> (pre T$R takeover).  Each issue of S&T and its sci-fi counterpart
> Ares had a series of propsed games; a brief paragraph or two
> describing a potential new product for ratings purposes.

Aaw. Now you're making me all nostalgic. <wipes lone tear from eye> 
;-)
There were lots of good ideas in those proposals, most of which still 
languish in those back pages...

/Jonas

------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:15:18 +1
Subject: Re: Rare materials no longer rare

On  5 Aug 96 at 18:27, owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.C wrote:

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> Diamonds; We already have (TL8) the ability to "make" diamonds.  I
> am not certain what the process is, but it stands to reason that
> either we will make this process quicker and cheaper, or will find
> large natural deposits somewhere off-planet.  The usual applications
> of diamonds are in lasers and cutting tools.  Will everyone have
> diamond bladed knives in their kithcens for cutting tomatos? (or is
> it tomatoes?)  The edge will never (well almost never) become dull
> or rust, the material has no crevices for nasty germs, however, you
> need our new diamond coated cutting board (wooden boards don't last
> more than a few weeks) [only 19.95cr, call now!].

Having worked for the Swedish diamond-making plant (Scandiamant I 
Robertsfors AB, the most profitable in europe, compared to the other 
one, that is ;-) I know a bit about the process (my father developed 
several of the methods used to separate the diamonds from the 'cores' 
produced by the presses.) Basically (and I'm simplifying here) you 
put graphite disks in a hard metal core (I seem to remember the 
graphite disks were interspersed with with nickel disks, but I can't 
swear on it as it's been, um, 10 years since I last built a core. 
;-), put these in a *huge* press where the core is subjected to 
*tremendous* pressure (the sound of a core exploding due to a fault 
is quite impressive. ;-) Once the core is pressed, extract the core 
from it's holder and crush the 'ex-graphite' to bits (one summer job 
I had, 15 years ago, was to do this manually, using a sledge, for the 
experimental process that eventually became the one they used. Yuck. 
;-). Then these graphite/diamond chunks (the smaller the better, when 
I worked in the crushing room they were put through three 
successively smaller ore crushers. By me. My back has never been the 
same after that, I don't know *how* many tons of diamonds I've 
shifted... Or breathed for that matter, for, as the boss put it, "We 
can't put in air conditioning to get the dust away from you. The 
diamonds could get lost!" ;-) are boiled in a moderately hellish acid 
mixture turning it into a greyish sludge. This sludge is then 
separated into a few qualities of industrial diamonds (and excess 
graphite) on a 'shaking table'. The excess graphite is then processed 
again to produce the lowest grade diamond, and the remaining graphite 
(which still contains some diamond) is used internally (for grinding 
stuff.)(I have here ignored the difficulties with getting rid of the 
acid in an environmentally friendly way, something which my father 
spent most of his time developing ways of doing.)

> From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
> We have found large natural deposits ON-planet.  Industrial diamonds
> are relatively cheap;

Heh. I probably still have a small can of industrial diamonds 
somewhere. ;-) (Not that I think Security would have appreciated 
knowing I took it home, but, the thought of having a can of DIAMONDS 
was just so cool to a fifteen-year old me. ;-)

> the price of gem-quality diamonds is held
> artificially high by the diamond cartel.

You got that right. deBeers - under several names - control the 
market. (Back in the days when Sweden wasn't allowed to trade with 
South Africa Scandiamant was 'not' owned by deBeers, and it did 'not' 
get any products from SA. Except that sometime people forgot to 
re-mark the sacks certain minerals came in. (Minerals that only were 
minable in SA, at least with sufficient quality for the process used 
then. ;-)

>  If the supply of
> gem-diamonds wasn't tightly controlled, diamonds wouldn't cost much
> more than amethysts or pearls, if that much.   

Right. While building a diamond-plant is a sizeable material 
investment, diamond-production efficiency has gone up drastically 
over the last few years. And as for natural diamonds there is a lot 
of unused mining capacity.

/Jonas

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 11:08:56 -0400
Subject: Ships of Solee Empire

A while back, Derek Stanley (I think it was him?) asked about the
Battle Rider scenario where the RC attacks the Empire of Solee. I
didn't see any response to it, so I figured I'd send in an answer.  If
someone already did this, well that's what delete keys are for. :)
Lewis

Battle Rider Scenario:
RCN attacks with   1 LT Maggart w/ 3 Manticore Battle Riders
                   1 LC Maggart            
                   1 DD Fusillier            
                   1 DD Lancer               

Solee defends with 1 CL Starburst            30,000 tons
                   1 ED Rapier
                   1 DE Chrysanthenum
                   1 CP Patrol Cruiser
                   1 DD Midu Agashaam
                   2 CVM Valors

In Dream of Chaos, the 2nd TNE Novel, the Solee Empire has                  
                   1 Kinunir Colonial Cruiser: Royal Vengence 
                   2 Midu Agashaam Destroyers
The Kinunir escapes, but the Midu Agashaams are destroyed by a deep site
meson gun.
 

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 11:18:20 -0400
Subject: TNE Novels

Hi,
I recently bought the two TNE novels. I thought they were okay novels,
but they also provide a fair bit of info about the RC, and surrounding
territory.  I thought I'd write up a short summary of what the books
said, to help myself and hopefully other people when we try to come up
with details about the planets.  The book is also about the RCS Hornet,
and I wrote a few details about it, so I could use it as an NPC ship in
my campaign. It would be neat to come up with a little more detailed
stats on the characters, but I didn't have the time/inclination. Anyone
else want to try?
Lewis

Hornet, a 80 year old Jayhawk Far Trader, rehabilitated by the Hiver Technical 
Academy as a class project. Outfitted with a missle launcher and a laser 
turret.  Owned by the Hiver technical nest, but registered as an RCS auxilury.
The ship has been fitted with TL-14/15 electronics.  Other nonstandard 
equipment includes a collapsable Jump-1 Fuel bladder, which retracts
when not in use to allow full use of hold. It also has a 20 ton module socket.
Later outfitted with a gattling gun, and plasma gun for close support work.
Admirality sees the Hornet as a backup to the other ships in the fleet.

Crew of the RCS Hornet

Captain Couer d'Esprit "Red Sun"
Born on Terra in the Phoenix Arcology of Arizona in they year 1095. 
She joined Imperial Scouts in 1113. Once the Rebellion started she served 
in Lucan's Imperium.  She served aboard a scout cruiser attached to the Navy.
While on patrol the ship was attacked and heavily damaged by elements of the  
Solomani Navy.  Most of the command crew was killed, faced with certain 
defeat shed ordered her ship to jump, even though it was well within the 
gravity well of a gas giant.  The ship misjumped and ended up in deep
space, Couer ordered the crew in to low berths. In 1198 they were rescued 
by members of the Dawn League, only she and three other crew members survived.
She offered her services to the Dawn League and served as pilot of the 
DLS Lirgishkhunan.  She then became an instructer at the
Technical Academy.  Finally she was offered command of the RCS Hornet. 
Her hobby is painting, she designed the ship patch for the Hornet.
175 cm tall.  Apparent age: 32

Dr Orit Takagawa "Physic" Doctor from Aubaine. Age 27

Johanna Solomon "Gyro" Gunner XO of Hornet.
Blue Eyed Blond

Denise Valencia "Snapshot" Gunner of Hornet, from Oriflamme. Has a short 
temper. Freckles red hair with brown eyes.

Sgt Major Vin Escher "Drop Kick" Marine from 3rd RMC. Born on Aubaine 
3 terms Marines

"Mercy" Marine Tank driver

"Whiz Bang"  Marine  Corporal

"Bonzo" Marine

"Crowbar" 1 term as Lancer, also went to Techical Academy. 
188 cm tall. 26 yrs

AkakEE Siltriver "Deep Six" deep water Schali. Navigator of Hornet. 
Likes to drink fermented algae, ee'kwat

Scissor Hiver-Died from Fologorex II.

Newton Hiver-Replacement for Scissor.

Other NPCS in the Novels.
Vega Bwyn Norn - Born 10/II/1167. Twice decorated with Auroran citatations for
bravery. She was the pilot of the Taylor the Bruce, which was destroyed in an
encounter with several Vampires. She maintains that M Gerald, the ships' 
Hivers tech represenative manipulated the captain into a 
confrontation with a fleet of Vampire ships. She thinks that the Hivers
were trying to draw attention to the Dawn League from the Vampires, in order
so that the Vampires would destroy the fledgling League, thus preventing
it from ever becoming a threat to the Hivers.
She resigned from the Dawn League, and became a renegade after that.  
She will try to protect the Reformation Coalition from all threats, but 
will also attempt to disrupt Hiver plans. She has no compunction against 
killing to achieve her goals. She owns a patrol Cruiser named Vi Et Armis, 
with a short range (continental) meson communicator

August Delparo President of Novastar Inc of Aubaine. Owns Lord Ryan a 200 ton
yacht.  He thinks that the RC should return to the aristocratic traditions of 
the Imperium.  

PLANETS
Ra: Ra has colony of 500 Hiver agronomists at Seabridge Nest.  
M Dina is the head of the Hivers.  The government has set up a preserve 
around Seabridge to protect Hiver larvae.  Seabridge Nest was established 
in VIII/1200 on Seabridge Peninsula, Seabridge Peninsula is 5000km from
north to south. The other major continent is named Bannon and is 16,000
km from pole to pole.  The nest is guarded by Company A of 515 Ra
Military Police. Wilburton Army Base is the closest human settlment, it
is 1500 miles away. Like most Hiver Nests Seabridge has many robots,
something which is a rarity in the RC. 
        Port Adrian is the world's captial and is located at the south
end of the Straits of Rickett, an 800km gap betwen the south coast of Seabridge Pen 
and North Bannon Continent. (30 deg above equater, temperate year round) 
Steam driven freighters plow the oceans (150m long) Starport is the fenced
off portion of a helioport, ocean refueling is free.
        The planet is governed by the Planetary Assembly. A governor is
also selected, the currernt one is Governor Manjit Bryce. The planet's
constition isn't real strong on civil liberites. Prisoners have no
right to a lawyer, and are often tortured.
        While the planet is fairly low tech, it does have an imported weather
satelite, and two SDBs, Asp Alpha and Asp Beta.  In addition Seabridge Nest
has a PEMS satelite in orbit.
 
Aubaine: Its Sun is named Halos.  While Transtown is the capital, Brusman
is the site of the Auction.
        The system is protected in part by a 75,000 ton Monitor, the 
ANS Kukulcan, the former Imperial Cruiser Vaward.  It's jump drives have 
been removed and used in smaller ships. It is the largest ship in the 
Aubaine Navy. (From the name, the size, and the text description,
the ship is most likely a Planet Class Heavy Cruiser as shown in the Rebellion
Sourcebook)
        The Tifelati, or Sea Gypsies, are an itinerant culture of the 
southern hemispher historicaly associated with banditry and mischief. 
Most other Aubaine think very little of the Tifelati, and they are often 
discriminated against.
        Aubaine hosts the HQ of the RCES:RCES Orbital Station, 
a spinning inhabited ring 500 meters across, attached by radiating spokes 
to a central dock and power plant. But it was large enough to support 1000 
workers in continuous residence. A colorful collection - consturction 
engineers undoing the damage of Virus and decades of neglect, Arses 
outfitting for the frontier, adminstrators pulling out their hair as they 
managed a patcwork comm net prone to switching errors- they made for a circus
atmosphere befitting the official call sign for the station. Big Top. 
There is still dormant Virus strains in the elevators. It is fairly stupid
becuase of the low quality of computer system, technichans are taking a go
slow attitude on the it, and are being very careful. The elevators are not
in use.

Aurora: Motto is Sic semper tyrannis. It allows psions with a permit.

Zloga: Its relic-salvage parties come from all over the Coalition. A nasty
dispute has broken out when the democratic ruling council had tried
to impose a price ceiling and excise tax on all fuel sold to starships. In
a way this was farcical the fuel was just water, conveniently stored at a 
dirt strip for occasional visitors, and only valuable becuase of its
rarity on a desert world.  But the owners of the fueling concession
were so irate that they completely demolished the "starport" and told the
ruling council where it could stuff itself for good measure.
It is protected by the RCN Fougade, one of Zloga's two SDBs.

Kruyter: Kreuzung Asteroid is the headquarters of Kruytercorp.  It is 300km 
in diameter. It has artificial gravity generators, but they are too expensive 
to run/maintain. The system has a ringed Gas Giant named Sonnamen. 
Two SDBs work the system. Run by raw recruits, they are employees of 
Kruytercorp. Very trigger happy.
Director Tirese Serene, is a remnant who used anagathics, and is a psion. 
Her abilities include telepathy. She has a psionic permit from Aurora. 
84 yrs old, looks in mid-twenties. Has auburn hair,and green eyes.    
Born on Nemyer (Oriflamme)

Oriflamme: Nemyer was settled about 3500 years ago during the Rule of 
Man by Terran colonists primarily Germans and Russions. They expelled the 
personal of a small Vilani outpost. They renamed the planet Nemyer after
their first governor.  The planet orbits its star in 45 days. It is not 
tidally locked. The weather is very violent due to the proximity to the star. 
Dobroye is the starport, and is located on the equater.
It has a sheltered sea harbor, and 30 million residents.  Daytime temperatures
routinely excede 60 degrees Celcius.  Access to the rest of West Zentrum
continent is tenous, blocked to the north by a dense rain forest, and to the 
south by the granite peaks of Sredinnyy Khrebet, the Central Range. 
Thron Desteufeis, the Devil's Throne, is a wasteland of rocks.
        Local citizens are restricted to their own region, and everyone is 
required carry ID at all times.  The economy is a command economy, strict 
controls over imports and exports are maintained.  Movement between the 
domains of technarchs is regulated, to maintain a stable labor pool.  

Phoebus: The planet is run by the Lord Regent who holds the system
while the Subsector duke is absent.  The current Lord Regent is Delvin
Garret. He lives in Stonecurtain Keep.  

Xexor: No traffic Net. A Coalition bootstrap is in Free Xantreeb, just
installed electric lights.  Pantera is a good port in Greater Xantreeb

Meadsk: Paguzim is Capital of Eitanii Republic.(Walled City) 
They speak Vilani. 

Bwan Hur: No SDB's, but opposed to contact. Has a working, albiet low tech,
planetary defense system.

Sauler: The system is patrolled by the SDB Springbok, run by a group of 
Starmercs known as Raglan's Raiders. 
The starport is a Guild free port, no weapons allowed, but no
trade regulations. Non guild members are not allowed to use all the facilities
and are pressured to join the Guild. Sauler Starport Cooperative is the front
company for the guild. The Kingdom of Serritella is to the north,
and Kaline Empire to the south. Starport Authority is housed in a large
building from the 2nd Imperium. Slave Auctions are run by the Guild.

Mexit: A small world, .7 G, about the size of Mars. Its orbital period is
48 standard days. Very violent weather.  Church of Grace and Light is very
strong.  It arose on Mexit several thousand years ago.  The faithful await 
the return of the Lord Defender.  He returns when ever the planet is in a
deep crisis.  The faithful believe that Saint Kilalt will rise again to 
herald the return of the Defender. 
     It has a single small moon, diameter of 500 km, named Elojo. Soledad is 
the captial of the planet. Emperor Brak is the local TED, overthrown with 
help from the Hornet, a temporary government is put in power Cardinal Miranda 
Vazquez. 
   Locals are afraid of nightjacks, mythical monsters which prey on those
who wander into the wilderness.  The locals ward themselves with blessed
items.  In actuallity they are virus infected robots.  Before the collapse 
Kilalt, a foreward looking priest had set up a depot of high technology to 
help bring back civilization.  His assistant murdered him, and took his place.
While he was asleep in cold sleep, Virus infected the complex.  The robots
didn't know that the Virus was responsible, and thought the Defender was
responsible.   The usurper planned on waiting till contacted by interstellar
government, and then selling the weapons located in the depot.  The depot
is protected by several deep meson guns, and numerous robots.  Graylord
is the chief robot. He was originally a repository for legal and ecclesiastic 
lore.  
   Soledad army has 20 troopers in heavy battle dress, a dozen Pyrrhus grav
sleds, five Astrin APCs, and two heavy TL-15 tanks.  

MISC:
Marathon Victrix is captained by Yves Franchot "Ripclaw". Class of '97

Hiver Folgorex I, was a biological weapon designed by K'Kree. Solomani 
reengineered it into Fologorex II, a much more deadly variety. 

Intelligence Directive
RCES HQ Aubaine 3/III/1201
Attention All Crews
         RCES crews operating in Thoezennt Subsector
  are advised to be alert to any weapons or technologies
  which can be linked to the Mercantile Guild, and asociation of
  taders believed to be reponsible for distribution
  of weaponary to objective worlds throughout the Area of
  Operations. Human intelligence and concentration of 
  low-tech weapons suggest thelocation of a local manufacturing 
  center in Thoezennt of adjacent regions.
        Any intelligence relating to the specific location
  or locations should be forwarded immediately to RCES HQ
  on Aubaine

Everything here is from the two TNE novels
The Death of Wisdom
To Dream of Chaos




 

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #308

In-Reply-To: <199608051200.IAA05189@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: Horizontal deckplans
> 
> violence. Azhanti High Lightning, I note, used vertical deckplans. Of 

As did the X-boat and tender.

> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Subject: Slag! and other stuff
> 
> The product in question is perhaps not the most tasteful product ever 
> made in the gaming industry.  But, the review in Shadis was favorable, 
> and recommended it not as a game to /play/, but to /read/, as it was 
> "laugh-out-loud funny."  I had decided this was something I wanted to 
> have.  Thus, my inquiry. (The game in question is called "HOL.")

I picked up a copy of that last year (like you, based on rave reviews). 
It's pretty sick in places, but I wouldn't say it's particularly 
offensive (but then I'm hard to offend). If you like that sort of thing, 
it's worth tracking down a copy.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #308

In-Reply-To: <199608051200.IAA05189@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: Horizontal deckplans
> 
> violence. Azhanti High Lightning, I note, used vertical deckplans. Of 

As did the X-boat and tender.

> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Subject: Slag! and other stuff
> 
> The product in question is perhaps not the most tasteful product ever 
> made in the gaming industry.  But, the review in Shadis was favorable, 
> and recommended it not as a game to /play/, but to /read/, as it was 
> "laugh-out-loud funny."  I had decided this was something I wanted to 
> have.  Thus, my inquiry. (The game in question is called "HOL.")

I picked up a copy of that last year (like you, based on rave reviews). 
It's pretty sick in places, but I wouldn't say it's particularly 
offensive (but then I'm hard to offend). If you like that sort of thing, 
it's worth tracking down a copy.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:29:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, David Jaques-Watson wrote:

> Joe, when you come up with something, why not submit it here and to JTAS? 
> There are a number of people who want a REALLY simple system - one actor 
> even wanted to just use a descriptive system. This is something that 
> people could use if they don't want a starship encounter to dominate the 
> session, just whip out the USCS (Unbelievably Simple Combat System) for 5 
> minutes. I wouldn't imagine such a system being so wordy that it can't 
> fit in a JTAS article.

Hmm.  Well, I'll submit whatever I come up with (which will be something 
that appeals to /me/, not necessarily to others) and we'll see what 
happens. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Aug 96 13:49:04 EDT
Subject: HoriVerticule deckplans

Dunno how this affects the controversy, but as I recall the <bang> canon, the S
scout, A.x merchant, Xboat and SDB at least were all first designed at TL 9.
Whereas Jump drive is available at 9, I-Comp isn't.

God those buckets must be miserable to fly in!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Aug 96 13:49:00 EDT
Subject: Rank names

>> I'm crewing a 5,000 ton cruiser that comes from the world of Kelnee which is
ruled by a monarchy and instead of using the traditional ranks such as Captain,
Commander, Ensign, etc. I want to use feudal, or medieval types of names for
ranks. <<

Well, you could rank your Purser as Castellan, your Engineer as Artificer.
Officer ranks, presumably Squire, Knight, Earl, Duke although that could clash
with Social ratings. Terms like Sergeant and Adjutant have been around almost
that long anyway, so while accurate lose the effect. Calling your ship's surgeon
a barber might decrease confidence. Second thoughts, yeah, do it!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:38:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Interstellar Commercial Regulation

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> Has anyone done any work on interstellar commercial/trade regulation?

> I'm wrestling with the rest of the regulation.  Once I started down the path
> the questions kept coming.

Well...?!?  What did you regulate, and how?

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the
> >deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader) somewhere.
				      ^^^^^^^^^^
				     Huh??? We are talking about the
				     Millenium Falcon here, neh?
				     Anything but unmodified.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:24:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Rank names

Personally, I *like* the title "Ship's Leech" for the doc.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 19:52:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

On Aug 06, 1996 11:43:32, 'Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>' wrote: 
 
>On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote: 
> 
>> >I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the 
>> >deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader)
somewhere. 
>				      ^^^^^^^^^^ 
>				     Huh??? We are talking about the 
>				     Millenium Falcon here, neh? 
>				     Anything but unmodified. 
 
He's referring to the <something-or-other> Stock Light Freighter, 
of which the Millenium Falcon was a *heavily* modified specimen. 
The Light Freighter is the Star Wars equivalent of the Far Trader 
or Type R Merchant... 
 
                              --dragoness 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #311
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 7 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 312

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)
         2. Raving Fanboys
         3. Re: RSSC
         4. Re: Raving Fanboys
         5. Starship Troopers: The Movie
         6. SSDS Errata from draft
         7. Re: Ships of Solee Empire
         8. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
         9. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
        10. Re: T4 Character Sheets
        11. Re: RSSC
        12. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
        13. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)
        14. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
        15. Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)
        16. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
        17. Re: Rare materials no longer rare

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 14:50:45 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

On 08/06/96 at 12:29 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, David Jaques-Watson wrote:

>> Joe, when you come up with something, why not submit it here and to JTAS?
>> There are a number of people who want a REALLY simple system - one actor 
>> even wanted to just use a descriptive system. 

I'm almost that simple myself. <g>

>Hmm.  Well, I'll submit whatever I come up with (which will be something 
>that appeals to /me/, not necessarily to others) and we'll see what 
>happens. :)

Post it!  Even if it appeals to just you it will probably spark ideas in
other folks.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:31:52 -0400
Subject: Raving Fanboys

Greetings:

I'm glad to see from some of the recent messages that I'm not the only raving
fanboy (apologies in advance to the raving fangirls) who bought the whole
shebang in advance of seeing a single IG product.

Heck, I even joined the fan club and bought one of the Foss artworks!

Now if I can just get a gaming group together so we can play the blessed
thing!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:40:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

[Discussion of the proposed RSSC (Rediculously Simple Space Combat) system]

> >Hmm.  Well, I'll submit whatever I come up with (which will be something 
> >that appeals to /me/, not necessarily to others) and we'll see what 
> >happens. :)
> 
> Post it!  Even if it appeals to just you it will probably spark ideas in
> other folks.  

Good point.  

Let's see now...once T4 gets into my hands, I'll have no less than eight 
projects to get done immediately.  No problem! :)  At least that means 
that no matter what my mood, there'll be a system to work on. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:43:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Raving Fanboys

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 FKiesche3@aol.com wrote:

> Greetings:
> 
> I'm glad to see from some of the recent messages that I'm not the only raving
> fanboy (apologies in advance to the raving fangirls) who bought the whole
> shebang in advance of seeing a single IG product.
> 
> Heck, I even joined the fan club and bought one of the Foss artworks!
> 
> Now if I can just get a gaming group together so we can play the blessed
> thing!

Fred,

Sure, you could go through all the work of getting a group together, _or_ 
you could do as some comic enthisasts I've known and simply buy all the 
T4 materials (in duplicate or triplicate, of course), and immediately put 
them all in acid-free bags, never opening (let alone using) the books. :)

Doesn't that sound _much_ more appealing? :)  It'd be simpler, anyway. :P


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Starship Troopers: The Movie

My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.

Starship Troopers: The Movie, is due out in theaters in the
summer of '97, at least according to the 12-Aug-96 issue of
Newsweek, pp63-64. The short blurb they write about it doesn't
even mention "Heinlein", which I found annoying, but even more
dismal was the director's comment that "the movie is about
fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be exact.
In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
was still suffering through boot. The director, Verhoeven, is
best known for his work in Robocop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct,
and Showgirls, and according to recent reports, the special
effects to be used in Starship Troopers have brought its budget
up near the $100 million mark. Let us hope the studio's take on
Heinlein's novel preserves some semblance of story amidst the
Hollywood glitz with which we will, no doubt, be bombarded.

Jim Vassilakos - jimv@empirenet.com - http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 18:01:44 -0600
Subject: SSDS Errata from draft

        Here are some of the errata I sent in to IG for the SSDS documents
as they were posted on my web site. Unfortunately, I'm missing a 3-day chunk
out of my email archive, and I KNOW there was at least one more, having to
do with (I think) fuel consumption.

In the weapon section, under laser bays, the table labelled "50 displacement
ton Laser Bays," in the text just above the actual table it says "The rate
of fire of any turret ..." This should read "The rate of fire of any bay ..."

In the controls and electronics section, the Military package is described
as having "1x 120,000km PEMS folding array (reminder that it can't be used
while maneuvering)," but should read "2x 120,000km PEMS folding array (ship
can't accelerate while deployed)"

        The Life Support section has no description of the difference
between Basic and Standard life support. Suggest the following:

"Basic Life Support provides a sealed hull, air and water, and is intended
for short periods of time (up to about eight hours). Standard Life Support
provides the same, and adds waste disposal or recycling and food, and is
designed for up to four weeks. Either form of life support has quite a bit
of safety margin built in, and can be stretched to double its intended load
for twice as long."

Under weapons, the explanation of choosing a meson screen is apparently
unclear. It currently reads "Choose the protective value you want, then find
it in the chart under your ship size category." Suggest it be changed to
read "Choose a meson screen from the chart. In the column under the ship
size category for your hull, note the protective value that screen provides."

In the controls and electronics section, the Military package is described
as having "1x 300,000km LaserComm (for controlling missiles)." That one
should read "2x" as well.

Under Jump Drives, the paragraph reading 

        "On the Jump Drive Size table, find the ship's size, 
        then go across to the column under the required jump 
        number. This is the volume the jump drive requires. 
        Also listed is the price and mass. Calculate the surface 
        area the drive requires by dividing its volume by 3."

The last sentence "Calculate the surface area ..." can be deleted, as the
tables I submitted include the area in the table.

On the sample ship worksheet, somebody commented about rearranging the order
of the crew columns: 

>Additionally, the Crew columns should be modified, since all of the tables
>list tend to list them in the order of Gn, El, En, Mx, Fl (weaponry,
>screens, power plants, etc.).

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 17:15:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Ships of Solee Empire

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
>A while back, Derek Stanley (I think it was him?) asked about the
>Battle Rider scenario where the RC attacks the Empire of Solee. I
>didn't see any response to it, so I figured I'd send in an answer.  If
>someone already did this, well that's what delete keys are for. :)
>Lewis
> 
> Battle Rider Scenario:
> RCN attacks with   1 LT Maggart w/ 3 Manticore Battle Riders
>                    1 LC Maggart
>                    1 DD Fusillier
>                    1 DD Lancer
> 
> Solee defends with 1 CL Starburst            30,000 tons
>                    1 ED Rapier
>                    1 DE Chrysanthenum
>                    1 CP Patrol Cruiser
>                    1 DD Midu Agashaam
>                    2 CVM Valors
> 
>In Dream of Chaos, the 2nd TNE Novel, the Solee Empire has
>                    1 Kinunir Colonial Cruiser: Royal Vengence
>                    2 Midu Agashaam Destroyers
>The Kinunir escapes, but the Midu Agashaams are destroyed by a deep site
>meson gun.
> 

Yes it was me...  Thank you, thank you very much.  I'm going to guess the 
Starburst is a SEH-Cruiser, Geonetti Class, What's a Rapier?  Whats the 
tonage and what's it do?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:34:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

 
> Newsweek, pp63-64. The short blurb they write about it doesn't
> even mention "Heinlein", which I found annoying, but even more
> dismal was the director's comment that "the movie is about
> fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be exact.
> In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
> was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
> place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
> was still suffering through boot. The director, Verhoeven, is
> best known for his work in Robocop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct,
> and Showgirls, and according to recent reports, the special
> effects to be used in Starship Troopers have brought its budget
> up near the $100 million mark. Let us hope the studio's take on
> Heinlein's novel preserves some semblance of story amidst the
> Hollywood glitz with which we will, no doubt, be bombarded.

It is my understanding (a good friend of mine worked on the effects)
that the movie will concentrate on the *action* of the story rather
than the politics, etc..  Other than drop-troops and bugs, I
wouldn't expect too much of the book to be in there.  I would
suggest going to see it with that in mind, lest you be too
disappointed :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 20:09:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

> My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
> recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
> on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
> Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.

Oh, crap.  Here they go again.

> Starship Troopers: The Movie, is due out in theaters in the
> summer of '97, at least according to the 12-Aug-96 issue of
> Newsweek, pp63-64. The short blurb they write about it doesn't
> even mention "Heinlein", which I found annoying, but even more

Geez.  If the author had been Danielle Steele, they'd have mentioned her 
name.  But a sci-fi author?  Heaven forbid!


> dismal was the director's comment that "the movie is about
> fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be exact.

Aaarrgghhh!

> In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
> was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
> place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
> was still suffering through boot. The director, Verhoeven, is

Right.  The story, like most of his juveniles, is one of the maturation 
process.  The character grew and changed during the course of the book.  
The book was also a social commentary, espousing the idea that only those 
who have "earned it" should be allowed to exercise their franchise (ie, 
vote).  

Undoubtedly, all of this will be lost in an orgy of special effects, 
grunting "heros" and gore.

> best known for his work in Robocop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct,
> and Showgirls, and according to recent reports, the special
> effects to be used in Starship Troopers have brought its budget

Sigh.

> up near the $100 million mark. Let us hope the studio's take on
> Heinlein's novel preserves some semblance of story amidst the
> Hollywood glitz with which we will, no doubt, be bombarded.

One can only hope they do preserve at least a bit of the original novel 
beyond the typical Hollywood fare.  But I doubt it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:12:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: T4 Character Sheets

I have made a T4 Character Sheet in MS Excel. I have asked IG permission 
to post it on the net.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 21:16:55 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC

RSSC?  Really Simple Ship Combat? <g>

On 08/06/96 at 04:40 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Let's see now...once T4 gets into my hands, I'll have no less than eight 
>projects to get done immediately.  No problem! :)  At least that means 
>that no matter what my mood, there'll be a system to work on. :)

I know the feeling.  <g> 

I'm trying to run games and let other folks do as much developing as
possible, but if you see my *long* tech post I'll have a lot of developing
to do.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 21:31:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

On 08/06/96 at 04:56 PM,  Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com> said:

>Starship Troopers: The Movie, is due out in theaters in the
>summer of '97...

That's good!

>...The short blurb they write about it doesn't even
>mention "Heinlein"

That's bad!

>...even more dismal was the director's comment that "the movie is about
>fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be exact. 

That's *very* bad!

>...the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist was
>still suffering through boot.  

Yep. It was a "coming of age" book like most of RAH's juvies with a good
dose of social commentary..like most of RAH's books. <g>  

But what can you expect from Hollywood?  If you can't shoot it, blow it up
or have sex with it they aren't interested.

Eris,
cynic at large
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 21:38:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

On 08/06/96 at 07:52 PM,  cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
said:

>>On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote: 
 
>>> >I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the 
>>> >deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader)
>somewhere. 
>>				      ^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>				     Huh??? We are talking about the 
>>				     Millenium Falcon here, neh? 
>>				     Anything but unmodified. 

Let's clear up who said what, huh?  <g> 

I was quoting Wildstar who wrote that he had designed the Falcon *and* a
matching unmod.  300-ton trader.  I said, please post the two designs and
deckplans somewhere.
 
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:48:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

On  6 Aug 96 at 20:09, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:
> 
> > My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
> > recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
> > on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
> > Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.
> 
> Oh, crap.  Here they go again.

Oh, they'll mention his name alright...  In the ending credits, after 
they've announced the nephew of the hairdresser for the caterer, 
there'll be a credit in type small enough that it can only be 
comfortably viewed with an electron microscope, which will state...

"Based on the Novel by Robert Heinlein"

I am not amused.  Yet another classic carved up for a film...

:-(

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 23:19:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #306)

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/06/96 at 07:52 PM,  cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
> said:
>
> >>On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
> >>> >I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the
> >>> >deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader)
> >somewhere.
> >>				      ^^^^^^^^^^
> >>				     Huh??? We are talking about the
> >>				     Millenium Falcon here, neh?
> >>				     Anything but unmodified.
>
> Let's clear up who said what, huh?  <g>
>
> I was quoting Wildstar who wrote that he had designed the Falcon *and* a
> matching unmod.  300-ton trader.  I said, please post the two designs and
> deckplans somewhere.

And apparently I just screwed everything up with my needless nitpicking.
And god knows that none of that goes on around here....

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 01:29:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

On 08/06/96 at 10:48 PM,  "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:

>> > recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"

>Oh, they'll mention his name alright...  In the ending credits, after 

>"Based on the Novel by Robert Heinlein"

>I am not amused.  Yet another classic carved up for a film...

I was a cynic yesterday, so today I'll have to be an optimist. <g>

The silver lining is that if the movie is good enough to be a box office
success there will be a new reprint of the book.  Maybe some of the younger
movie goers will discover Heinlein.  I'm pretty sure if we can get RAH's
books into their hands they'll enjoy them, want more, and...

More SF fans, more potential Traveller players. <g> 

Eris

ps. Hey IG, put an ad for T4 in the back of the book! <g>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:48:15 +0300
Subject: Re: Rare materials no longer rare

> Diamonds; We already have (TL8) the ability to "make" diamonds.  I am not 
> certain what the process is, but it stands to reason that either we will 
> make this process quicker and cheaper, or will find large natural deposits

        Simple method of manufacturing small diamonds or diamond dust
        is the Butler method, where a hot piece of metal is bathed
        in methane gas. The heat of glowing metal apparently breaks
        down the molecular bonds between hydrogen and carbon, and
        the free carbon crystallized on the surface of metal as thin
        diamond layer.
 
> And diamond-dust coated sharpening rods are a standard fixture 
> in cutlery stores... I own a pair myself.

        Hmm. I prefer flat sapphirite stone to diamond-dust rods. I
        found it difficult to control the shape of bladetip when
        using rod sharpeners. For rough honing I use a flat tungsten
        plate with butlerized diamond scale at upper surface.

        The diamond scale appears to be able to cut nearly anything,
        but removed material quickly fill the scale, and so the
        honing tool requires frequent cleaning.

> We don't use diamond as a cutting edge because it is *brittle*. A
> diamond-bladed knife would have problems with shattering with sharp
> blows.

        The same problem plaques modern ceramic knifes. The ceramic
        blade stays sharp very long, but when dull it is very difficult
        to sharpen one, and the blade may shatter when dropped.


        Some modern electric and optic equipments are made of such
        artificial materials that are inferior to existing rare and
        expensive materials. If rare materials suddenly became cheap
        and readily available, we would probably see some increases
        in performance in some areas of technology.

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #312
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 7 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 313

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RSSC
         2. Re: RSSC
         3. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
         4. Re: Horizontal Decks
         5. Re: HoriVerticule deckplans
         6. Re: Space 1889 Reference
         7. Re: Horizontal Decks
         8. Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie
         9. Re: Horizontal Decks
        10. Re: Starship Troopers
        11. Re: Horizontal Decks
        12. Re: Horizontal Decks
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #310
        14. Outreach
        15. Re: Ships of Solee Empire
        16. Re: Starship Troopers
        17. Re: RSSC
        18. Re: RSSC
        19. Re: RSSC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 08:14:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> RSSC?  Really Simple Ship Combat? <g>

Substitute "Rediculously" for "Really," and you've got it. :)

> On 08/06/96 at 04:40 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
> 
> >Let's see now...once T4 gets into my hands, I'll have no less than eight 
> >projects to get done immediately.  No problem! :)  At least that means 
> >that no matter what my mood, there'll be a system to work on. :)
> 
> I know the feeling.  <g> 
> 
> I'm trying to run games and let other folks do as much developing as
> possible, but if you see my *long* tech post I'll have a lot of developing
> to do.  <g>

Speaking of doing 900 things at once, I want to mention that I'll be at 
Gen-Con on Friday, Saturday and Sunday [couldn't get Thursday 
off...grumble, grumble].  Although I live close enough to travel to 
Milwaukee daily (and therefore I'll be home each evening), I don't plan 
on doing much posting during that time.  Most replies will probably have 
to wait until Sunday or Monday.  I will, however, give my comments on T4 
if I happen to get the book at Gen-Con.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:02:12 GMT
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Aug 07, 1996 08:14:20, 'Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>' wrote: 
 
>On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote: 
> 
>> RSSC?  Really Simple Ship Combat? <g> 
> 
>Substitute "Rediculously" for "Really," and you've got it. :) 
 
Dig out GURPS Lensman and look up the "Space Opera Combat System" 
(SOCS).  It's an RSSC designed with an emphasis on furthering the 
story, rather than the usual wargaming emphasis. 
 
                    --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:00:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

>On  6 Aug 96 at 20:09, Joe Walsh spewed:
>
>> On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:
>>
>> > My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
>> > recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
>> > on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
>> > Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.
>>
>> Oh, crap.  Here they go again.
>
>Oh, they'll mention his name alright...  In the ending credits, after
>they've announced the nephew of the hairdresser for the caterer,
>there'll be a credit in type small enough that it can only be
>comfortably viewed with an electron microscope, which will state...
>
>"Based on the Novel by Robert Heinlein"

More like, "Based on the cover blurb for a Novel by Robert Heinlein"

That said, I'll probably still be one of the people at the first matinee
showing


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:29:28 PST
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

In mail you write:

> Here's a good reason for horizontal decks (parallel to thrust):
>
> If inertial compensators *do* give out during combat, everyone should be
> seated facing forward (except some of the engineers, who are in the back
> of the ship anyway). As has been pointed out earlier, it is better to be
> lying down when taking multiple gees (which they would now be).
>
> With decks facing the other way, seated people in the bridge would be
> more prone to black out. You would have to make the control couches lie
> flat, which would be inconvenient during normal operations.

Only trouble is, that makes it *impossible* to move to a different
"station" while under acceleration. And it makes damage control next to
impossible. The ship's corridors become the equivalent of an open
elevator shaft in a *tall* building. Anybody near the bow end of a
corridor when the compensators go out will be rather messily dead.

Also, consider just how much bracing those chairs will need. They will
be anchored to a *wall* with 100 kg of person in them. At 3 gees that's
gonna take some *real* work to design the chair not to rip out. 

It's a lot simpler to have a chair attached to a *floor* that *stays* a
floor, and has an option to recline (complete with swing down controls).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:49:45 PST
Subject: Re: HoriVerticule deckplans

In mail you write:

> Dunno how this affects the controversy, but as I recall the <bang>
> canon, the S scout, A.x merchant, Xboat and SDB at least were all
> first designed at TL 9.  Whereas Jump drive is available at 9, I-Comp
> isn't.
>
> God those buckets must be miserable to fly in!

Only if you are doing high gee manuevers. I don't have references at
hand, but I seem to remember the Type S as only being 2 gee anyway.

Call the hull "airframe", and you *fly* the damn thing until you are
too high/fast to worry about the atmosphere, and then stand it on it's
tail and boost into orbit. Once you've achieved orbit, you can loaf out
to the 100 diameter limit.

Landing would be a lot like landing the Shuttle, except you have engine
power available so, you don't have to make a dead stick landing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 03:08:14 PST
Subject: Re: Space 1889 Reference

In mail you write:

>> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
>
>> Last night I was sorting through an old pile of Strategy & Tactics
>> (pre T$R takeover).  Each issue of S&T and its sci-fi counterpart
>> Ares had a series of propsed games; a brief paragraph or two
>> describing a potential new product for ratings purposes.
>
> Aaw. Now you're making me all nostalgic. <wipes lone tear from eye> 
> ;-)
> There were lots of good ideas in those proposals, most of which still 
> languish in those back pages...

It reminds *me* that I've got a copy of Outreach in storage. The entire
Imperium (plus everything else except maybe the Zhodani core
expeditions) will fit in *one* of the hexes on the galaxy map from that
game.

1200 light years per hex. Call it 400 parsecs. Anybody want to write up
rules for using that map with Traveller? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 07 Aug 96 10:38:37 EDT
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

What Leonard said, especially the bit about the eleveator shaft. Sure, flat
ships and perpendicular decks look cooler, but reality? oh god, that word
again?

------------------------------

From: Nick Gibbins <gibbins@cpd.ntc.nokia.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:02:06 +0100
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers: The Movie

   From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
   Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 01:29:48 -0500

   > The silver lining is that if the movie is good enough to be a box
   > office success there will be a new reprint of the book.  Maybe
   > some of the younger movie goers will discover Heinlein.

I won't be holding my breath. I expect that they'll employ someone
like Alan Dean Foster to knock out a swift novelisation. This will
probably be along the same lines as Terry Bisson's _Johnny Mnemonic_
or the dreadful novelisation of _Dracula_ that was released to
coincide with Francis Ford Coppola's _Bram Stoker's Dracula_.

Even PKD didn't escape this fate, despite the reissue of a
merely-renamed _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_; the cinema
release of _Total Recall_ brought with it a novelisation that had
little in common with _We Can Remember It For You Wholesale_ bar the
language it was written in.

- --
Nick Gibbins                                       gibbins@cpd.ntc.nokia.com
     (He was) a genial and pleasant gentleman, whom to meet anywhere in
   your travels was to know, to know was to drink with, and to drink with
 was, unfortunately, to pay for. - Thomas Hardy, Far From the Madding Crowd

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:57:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

On Aug 07, 1996 10:38:37, 'Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M.
Miller)' wrote: 
 
>What Leonard said, especially the bit about the eleveator shaft. Sure,
flat 
>ships and perpendicular decks look cooler, but reality? oh god, that word 
>again? 
 
Well, as the person who brought up the deck orientation question 
again, I'll point out that there is an implicit assumption that 
Imperial hardware is reliable.  Maybe not quite up to Fail-Safe 
standards (cf. Larry Niven, Known Space), but reliable enough. 
For CIVILIAN ships, the risk of Anti-Acc systems failing is  
probably so trivial as not to be worth worrying about, and  
parallel decks not unreasonable.   
 
I was just pointing out the safety hazard *if*, "God forbid", 
your Anti-Acc should fail in a ship like the Type S or Type R 
while under acceleration.  This sort of thing shouldn't happen 
ordinarily, but we all know that adventures arise from the 
out-of-the-ordinary things that happen. 
 
BIG CAVEAT: *Military* ships, which are subject to having holes 
shot in them, are a whole 'nother story.  I also pointed this out 
in the original post, but to repeat: having holes shot thru your 
Anti-Acc systems, or the Power Plant that feeds juice to said 
systems does terrible things to the reliability of your Anti-acc. 
A WELL-DESIGNED military ship should be designed to minimize 
losses in the event of systems failures of various types... 
 
                     --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 10:04:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

At 08:00 AM 8/7/96 -0400, Jim wrote:

>My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
>recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
>on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
>Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.

As long as the don't have Arnie the Terminator playing Juan Rico...

>The short blurb they write about it doesn't even mention "Heinlein", which
I >found annoying, but even more dismal was the director's comment that "the
>movie is about fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be
>exact.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I do NOT need to see "Aliens"
again!  Been there, saw that, bought the tape.  nononononono

>In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
>was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
>place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
>was still suffering through boot.

ST was the deciding force in my decision to join the Army!  (Betcha' didn't
know that, Craig-- you thought it was Traveller...  ).

I identified with Rico's lack of direction, and found basic to be much like
Heinlein's description.. except we never hung anyone :)

*Sigh*  I suppose I'll see it.. but I'll miss the classes in Moral History..
picture Patrick Stewart as the High School instructor (Mr. DuBois?)

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|          Third Shift Kramer Krony          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:28:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

I would like the next person who quotes what a "realistic" starship of the
far future should be like to show me exactly how many "real" starships
they have seen, 3000 years from now to boot.

Growing tired of quibbling, perhaps its just been one of those days.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@rt66.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:42:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

 
> I would like the next person who quotes what a "realistic" starship of the
> far future should be like to show me exactly how many "real" starships
> they have seen, 3000 years from now to boot.
 
Hey, the physics nullifier here is grav comp, and if it breaks down
on a given ship, the same ole physics we know and love *will* apply.

As a result it is prefectly reasonable to call vertical decked ships
more "realistic" in situations where the grav comp might be damaged.
A good reason for things like the type R is that they are impossible
to hijack unless they gain the bridge at the very start, otherwise
turn off the grav comp and turn on the Mdrive.  Splat!

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:21:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #310

>>I'm wrestling with the rest of the regulation.  Once I started down the path
>>the questions kept coming.
>
>Could you elaborate on what you did in your campaign?

In my campaign I have a team that has been working missions for the RC (and
will for a few weeks more until T4 w/ background is released.) One of the
PCs spent years in school after a short stint in the Balduri Navy. Now they
have their own ship and my once upon a navy guy thinks all he learned back
when should be just as applicable today. To throw him a wrench and get my
NPC team aboard I had the RC set minimum crew regulations for different
class ships. The ship's owner, fresh out of the navy has his pilot's and
astrogator's papers. Other members of the crew have skills needed to secure
cargo with near certainty of profit and the combined skill and manpower to
do the hours and hours and hours of maintenance to keep a 138 year old free
trader operating somewhat effecently.

The "Engineers' Guild" was created to keep some of the control in my hands.
No matter what the PCs skill it is years old and the guild is fairly young.
The guild requires months as an apprentice with an "Master Engineer" before
Journeyman papers are awarded. A journeyman can then crew as ship's engineer.

So my PC team had to hire on a master and now the old man who once was an
engineer pulls grunt duty on the plant and engines in addition to his other
duties.

Mainly I am looking for what ideas for general interstellar trade regulation
others have come up with.


Mark Ayers  mark@bbic.com
>From Gavin to Stephron and now back to Cleon I've seen 'em all.


------------------------------

From: Graham Spearing <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:18:40 GMT
Subject: Outreach

In your message dated Wednesday 7, August 1996 Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) 
wrote :

> It reminds *me* that I've got a copy of Outreach in storage. The entire
> Imperium (plus everything else except maybe the Zhodani core
> expeditions) will fit in *one* of the hexes on the galaxy map from that
> game.
> 
> 1200 light years per hex. Call it 400 parsecs. Anybody want to write up
> rules for using that map with Traveller? :-)

My first ever wargamy 'difficult' game. I have used the map with a modified 
Space Opera.

Why not just go over the top and say that the Jump Number is the number of hexes 
the ship can travel in a week! Jumps within a hex take about a day!

Way hay...

- -- 
Graham

Visit the Fantasy world of Kalland: http://www.io.com/zunder/kindex.htm


------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:39:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Ships of Solee Empire

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:

>Yes it was me...  Thank you, thank you very much.  I'm going to guess the 
>Starburst is a SEH-Cruiser, Geonetti Class, What's a Rapier?  Whats the 
>tonage and what's it do?

Yep, the _Starburst_ is an SEH cruiser -- the silhouette leaves no doubt.
They call MT's _Planet_ a _Mercury_, as I recall, but the silhouette makes
this clear also, since the _Planet_ is just a heavy _Starburst_.

The _Rapier_ is an ED-15, I believe, from MT _Frightning...er, _Fighting
Ships_.  I don't have that dread tome, but the ED is an "escort destroyer"
in the 10000 d-ton class which is probably intended to, well, destroy
escorts.  It's natural prey is probably any escorts up to and including
5000 d-ton fleet escorts like the _PF Sloan_, which are big enough to be 
a serious nuisance.  It'd be handy to have one to deal with the RCN ships.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 18:51:29 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

At 10:04 am 8/7/96 -0700, you wrote:
>*Sigh*  I suppose I'll see it.. but I'll miss the classes in Moral History..
>picture Patrick Stewart as the High School instructor (Mr. DuBois?)

        Or perhaps Fleet Sergeant Zim?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 18:50:52 -0600
Subject: Re: RSSC

At 08:14 am 8/7/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>Speaking of doing 900 things at once, I want to mention that I'll be at 
>Gen-Con on Friday, Saturday and Sunday [couldn't get Thursday 

        Stop by and say hi! I'll be running the "Traveller Board Game."
Don't ask me what it's like, I don't know yet.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:23:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 08:14 am 8/7/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
> >Speaking of doing 900 things at once, I want to mention that I'll be at 
> >Gen-Con on Friday, Saturday and Sunday [couldn't get Thursday 
> 
>         Stop by and say hi! I'll be running the "Traveller Board Game."
> Don't ask me what it's like, I don't know yet.

I hope to do that.  Actually, I plan on meeting as many TMLers who are at 
GenCon as possible.  It'll be nice to assure eachother that we are, 
indeed, real people and not just AI programs. :P


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:37:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> I hope to do that.  Actually, I plan on meeting as many TMLers who are at 
> GenCon as possible.  It'll be nice to assure eachother that we are, 
> indeed, real people and not just AI programs. :P
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Speak for yourself Joe. ;)


Tom


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 8 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 314

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #310
         2. Re: Ships of Solee Empire
         3. Starship Troopers
         4. Re: Starship Troopers
         5. Re: Starship Troopers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:24:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #310

In a message dated 96-08-06 10:01:42 EDT, you write:

<< Depending on how noxious you want the guilds to be, you can charge big
 bucks for the tests, require sponsorship by a current guildmember before a
 character could get apprenticed, only offer tests once a year at a limited
 number of locations, etc. >>

Hmm.... sounds like the FCC procedures..... General Class FCC testing only
goes on once or twice a year.... and then only at specific locations......
 but the cost isn't really that bad..... unless you count the travel and
housing costs.. <<grin>>



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 21:53:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Ships of Solee Empire

Steven Bonneville wrote:

>Yep, the _Starburst_ is an SEH cruiser -- the silhouette leaves no 
>doubt. They call MT's _Planet_ a _Mercury_, as I recall, but the 
>silhouette makes this clear also, since the _Planet_ is just a heavy 
>_Starburst_.
> 
>The _Rapier_ is an ED-15, I believe, from MT _Frightning...er, _Fighting
>Ships_.  I don't have that dread tome, but the ED is an "escort 
>destroyer" in the 10000 d-ton class which is probably intended to, well, 
>destroy escorts.  It's natural prey is probably any escorts up to and 
>including 5000 d-ton fleet escorts like the _PF Sloan_, which are big 
>enough to be a serious nuisance.  It'd be handy to have one to deal with 
>the RCN ships.

Speaking of the dread tome...  It's an oversized flying pizza wedge 
weighing in at 10,000 tons.  Thanks.

I've never really though as the Planet as being an upsized SEH...  They 
look so different.  I think that what you're looking at is the SEH on the 
side of the Planet picture, the Planet is that thing in the foreground 
that looks like a shuttle, that's a particle accellerator in the middle 
not a docking ring.  There's another...  oops looking at the picture now
The SEH is the ship on the extreme right of the picture the big thing in 
the upper left is a Planet...  They never should have put the two ships 
in one shot...

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu,  8 Aug 96 04:44:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Starship Troopers

Hmmm...this is a new record...we are trashing a movie more than a year
before it comes out.

What I want to know, is how will the movie impact the "Rock Dropping"
argument?  : )

 In reality, the movie may very well result in a reprint of the novel,
and (if it makes money) will inspire a horde of imitators. There may
be an official RPG, and will probably be a line of miniatures (licensed
or unlicensed).

 Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

 LKW

 (PS: WHoever shopws up at Gen-Con, I'll be there Friday night, Saturday,
and SUnday morning).

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

> On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 10:04:03 -0700, Doug Berry wrote:
> 
> At 08:00 AM 8/7/96 -0400, Jim wrote:
> >My apologies if this is a little off-topic, but since there was
> >recently a discussion regarding Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"
> >on this list, I figured some of you might like to know that
> >Hollywood intends to "update" it for the 90s.
> 
> As long as the don't have Arnie the Terminator playing Juan Rico...

No, no, Doug, it's worse than that.  Far worse.  I have been visited by 
foul omens indeed, terrible portents, dark forms from beyond, whispering 
the name...

Keanu.

"Bugs, Mr. Rico!  Zillions of 'em!  I'm a-hosin' 'em down!"

[Long awkward pause, look of confused consternation, a bit more pause...]

"Wow...*bogus*."

> >The short blurb they write about it doesn't even mention "Heinlein", which
> I >found annoying, but even more dismal was the director's comment that "the
> >movie is about fighting giant bugs", seven-foot tall alien spiders to be
> >exact.
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I do NOT need to see "Aliens"
> again!  Been there, saw that, bought the tape.  nononononono

Since Aliens 1, 2, and 3 made money, we're going to be seeing big spidery
slightly out of focus aliens wandering menacingly through Geiger sets amid
clouds of Ridley Scott-brand steam for a very, very, VERY long time. 

> >In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
> >was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
> >place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
> >was still suffering through boot.
> 
> ST was the deciding force in my decision to join the Army!  (Betcha' didn't
> know that, Craig-- you thought it was Traveller...  ).

Actually, I thought you'd missed the entry roll for the Navy.

[Craig ducks *quickly*.]

> I identified with Rico's lack of direction, and found basic to be much like
> Heinlein's description.. except we never hung anyone :)
> 
> *Sigh*  I suppose I'll see it.. but I'll miss the classes in Moral History..
> picture Patrick Stewart as the High School instructor (Mr. DuBois?)

How about Juliette Lewis as the assault ship pilot?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:50:40 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

In mail you write:

> At 08:00 AM 8/7/96 -0400, Jim wrote:
> As long as the don't have Arnie the Terminator playing Juan Rico...

Actually, you need a black or at least chicano actor to play Juan. His
skin color *is* referred to *once* in the book. And I rather suspect
that they could find some good actors for the part.

> *Sigh*  I suppose I'll see it.. but I'll miss the classes in Moral History..
> picture Patrick Stewart as the High School instructor (Mr. DuBois?)

That would work. How about making Scharzenagger Sgt. Zim? *That* role
he'd work quite well at.

And it *is* possible that they will keep the boot camp stuff, and even
do it more or less right. That fits pretty well with the sort of stuff
they do in "military" movies these days.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 8 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 315

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Horitontal Decks
         2. Re: QSDS and Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #310)
         3. Re: Starship Troopers
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #313
         5. Re: Starship Troopers
         6. Interstellar Commerce Regulation
         7. Guilds
         8. Low Message Traffic
         9. Horizontal Decks and Chairs
        10. Re: Horizontal Decks
        11. Low Message Traffic -Reply
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #313
        13. Re: Starship Troopers
        14. Starship Troopers Cast
        15. Re: Guilds
        16. Re: Low Message Traffic -Reply
        17. GenCon
        18. Re: Starship Troopers
        19. Big Guns and Fertilizer!
        20. Re: Interstellar Commerce Regulation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:08:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Horitontal Decks

A point of terminology:

To describe a deck as Horizontal is redundant: of course they are
horizontal, that's why we can walk on them.  The proper term for a Vertical
Deck is a Wall.

The proper term for a deck perpendicular to the line of thrust is "Fail
Safe".  The proper term for a deck parallel to the line of thrust is either
"nothing can possibly go wrong" or "Aaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh - SPLAT"
depending on your last annual maintenance (or referee, ;-) .

Larry Niven had a neat ship in "World of Ptavs".  It was a luxuray liner
with a landing capability.   It had a "shuttle/space plane" layout, with
decks parallel  to the ground when landed, and take off jets aft to maneuver
in atmosphere.  The main thruster was on the "ventral" surface and cut in in
low orbit, permitting the high paying passengers to continue to experience
the same direction of "down"
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 96 09:15:20 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS and Millenium Falcon (Td V96 #310)

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote:
> 1.  What parts of FF&S were "fixed" in order to create SSDS and QSDS?
> 2.  What were the above mentioned "fixes?"

Dave covered these pretty well.  The executive summary is that laser power
was limited; thrust plates are back as standard technology (and cheaper),
and fusion power minimums were raised to support milleu 0.  The change to
contra-gravity is minor (allowing you to get thrust from it, too).

> 3.  What are the most recent versions of SSDS and QSDS?

The most recent version of QSDS is v1.3, and it's on my Web site at
	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds
When new versions are available (there will almost certainly be a v1.4,
unless IG tells me to cease and desist) the will appear on the same site.

> 4.  What are the "known errors" in QSDS and SSDS?

There are two known problems with QSDS v1.3:
1) The power plant table gives fuel requirents for 6 months, instead of the
   FF&S/SSDS standard of 1 year.
2) The HEPlaR drive table is completely wrong with respect to the input
   power required by HEPlaR drives.  The power requirement should be 14
   times the listed amount (it's a displacement-ton versus cubic-meter
   conversion error in my spreadsheet).

> 5.  What are the fixes for the known errors?

See above.  When T4 arrives, I'll compare QSDS 1.4 with what was printed,
and produce a definitive errata list.

> 6.  Who has the time to answer some detailed questions about the design
> process that I ran into?

I can't promise to answer promptly, but questions that are e-mailed to me
(instead of appearing in the TML, which I sometimes read and sometimes just
delete without reading) _will_ get answered, sooner or later.


eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
> >I first did the Falcon back with High Guard ... and I still have the
> >deckplan for it (and the matching, unmodified 300-ton trader) somewhere.
> 
> How about digging it up and posting it somewhere? <g>

Well, I did some digging.  The unmodified ship's deckplan seems to be lost
and gone forever (and I _know_ I did it) - oh well.  I did find two versions
of the Falcon (one at TL-12 and the other at TL-15), as well as a bunch of
other ships.

The problem with the deckplans is that they're 11x17 and were drawn in
color (buying Azhanti High Lightning had a big influence on the way I drew
deckplans forever afterwards); I don't have a scanner that can handle that.
I'll be posting the High Guard designs in a little while, though.

If folks are interested, there is some other material there, including a new
and different weapons list for folks who were usign the original STRIKER.



wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:27:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > At 08:00 AM 8/7/96 -0400, Jim wrote:
> > As long as the don't have Arnie the Terminator playing Juan Rico...
> 
> Actually, you need a black or at least chicano actor to play Juan. His
> skin color *is* referred to *once* in the book. And I rather suspect
> that they could find some good actors for the part.

This is Hollywood we're talking about, we're just as likely to get Jackie 
Chan or Ru Paul playing Juan Rico as we are to get Jimmy Smitts pr Paul 
Rodrigues.
 
Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:32:30 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #313

cynthia wrote

> BIG CAVEAT: *Military* ships, which are subject to having holes 
> shot in them, are a whole 'nother story.  I also pointed this out 
> in the original post, but to repeat: having holes shot thru your 
> Anti-Acc systems, or the Power Plant that feeds juice to said 
> systems does terrible things to the reliability of your Anti-acc. 
> A WELL-DESIGNED military ship should be designed to minimize 
> losses in the event of systems failures of various types... 
>  
>                      --Cynthia 

Oh, yes. plus, the floors double as bulkheads. no need to build quite as 
many extra.
besides: don't we all REALLY want military ships, with lotsa speed and 
big guns? I don't play traveller to fantasize about selling fertilizer 
planet - to - planet.

Now gripes:
someone wrote,
> >In the first place, Heinlein's classic novel "Starship Troopers"
> >was about much more than "fighting giant bugs," and in the second
> >place, the best part of the book, IMHO, was while the protagonist
> >was still suffering through boot.
(forgot the source, but the quote seems to sum up the prevailing attitude 
about ST)
for cryin' out loud! It wasn't that great! And all the 
moralizing/sociology/political theorizing was the worst part, just 
juvenile soapbox punditizing (new verb?). cool battledress though, if it 
is another 'aliens' I for one will be pleased. spare me heinlein's Big 
Message.
Moreover:
> From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:28:54 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks
> I would like the next person who quotes what a "realistic" starship of the
> far future should be like to show me exactly how many "real" starships
> they have seen, 3000 years from now to boot.

killjoy.

Devon Belcher
Dept. of Philosophy 
University of Colorado, Boulder


------------------------------

From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:20:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

gdw.support@genie.com writes:

>  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

Yes.  It was the first time I had ever played a Sci-Fi game.  Before that
it was just wargames.  We got into Traveller shortly after that.  I seem
to recall winning that first game - I was the bugs - although I didn't
fully know what I was doing.  Wish I still had access to the game. Our
gaming group split up all over creation. *sigh* 

- - Ron


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 07:50:28 -0700
Subject: Interstellar Commerce Regulation

> character could get apprenticed, only offer tests once a year at a limited
> number of locations, etc. >>
>
>Hmm.... sounds like the FCC procedures..... General Class FCC testing only
>goes on once or twice a year.... and then only at specific locations......
> but the cost isn't really that bad..... unless you count the travel and
>housing costs.. <<grin>>

I opted against testing. To easy to breeze in at testing time and sweep all
the catagories one desires. This PC is a real "What's Zathra, the NPC's,
engineering skill?" type. Or perhaps "How do I get my pilot, navigator,
engineer, cargomaster, purple gumroot wine rating papers?"

So the authority (RC in this case) established minimum crewing requirements
by starship class. The Bucephylus requires a qualified pilot with fairly
easily gotten Pilots Papers, a navigator with similar requirements and
because of the influence of the "Engineers' Guild" the difficult to obtain
journeyman or master engineer depending on the age a complexity of ship's
systems.


Recommended reading for this month:
_The Death of Common Sense_ by Philip Howard; Warner Books; $10.99


------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:33:04 -0400
Subject: Guilds

Greetings All:

So, tying two threads together...Guilds and Starship Troopers...

Take a gander at RAH's "Starman Jones" (still a favorite after all these
years). Just about every career was run by a guild--with tough entry
procedures. The main character, Max Jones, hoped to be a Astrogator on a
starship. When he approaches the Guild about joining, he thought that he
would be able to get in as his uncle had been an Astrogator and you need to
be sponsored for membership by a relative. Turns out his uncle never got
around to it, and thereby hangs the tale of the rest of the book.

If you ignore the occasional anachronism (circular slide rules, the ship's
computer is possibly mechanical--definately "low tek"), it's a great book,
especially for young adults (the intended audience).

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:41:05 -0400
Subject: Low Message Traffic

Hey!

What's with the low message traffic? Everyone off at a game show (wink,wink)?

Nobody brought a lap top with them? Where's the blow by blow report on the
unveiling of the New Big Black Book?????????

Drool, drool, drool. 

Whaduyawant, I'm a raving fanboy!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 07:59:36 -0800
Subject: Horizontal Decks and Chairs

Leonard thusly scribed without quill:
>Only trouble is, that makes it *impossible* to move to a different
>"station" while under acceleration. And it makes damage control next to
>impossible. The ship's corridors become the equivalent of an open
>elevator shaft in a *tall* building. Anybody near the bow end of a
>corridor when the compensators go out will be rather messily dead.
>
>Also, consider just how much bracing those chairs will need. They will
>be anchored to a *wall* with 100 kg of person in them. At 3 gees that's
>gonna take some *real* work to design the chair not to rip out.
>
>It's a lot simpler to have a chair attached to a *floor* that *stays* a
>floor, and has an option to recline (complete with swing down controls).
>
However, NASA didn't seem to do that with their reuseable spacecraft... the
chairs are bolted to what is the FLOOR come landing; it's a wall during
takeoff.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:54:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks

cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic) wrote:

>Well, as the person who brought up the deck orientation question 
>again, I'll point out that there is an implicit assumption that 
>Imperial hardware is reliable.  Maybe not quite up to Fail-Safe 
>standards (cf. Larry Niven, Known Space), but reliable enough. 
>For CIVILIAN ships, the risk of Anti-Acc systems failing is  
>probably so trivial as not to be worth worrying about, and  
>parallel decks not unreasonable.   

One example is the article by Marc Miller about Luna.  One of the
lunar communities held in its' atmosphere with a gravitic dome that
had been in continuous operation since the middle of the Long Night,
as I recall.  Darrian had an underwater city that had a similar
structure, which survived the Maghiz (partly becuase it was under
water and ice).  There are many flying cities and grav-supported
buildings in the Imperium.  The implication is that gravitics must
be very, very reliable, even if the cities use redundant layers of
multiple units to avoid catastrophic failure.

  -- Steve


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.ahp.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 12:08:59 -0400
Subject: Low Message Traffic -Reply

>Hey!

>What's with the low message traffic? Everyone off at a game show
>(wink,wink)?

I think everybody's holding their breath until the new version comes out.
Not *everybody* can get to GenCon, you know. Some of us are slaves to
the speed of Marc Miller's signature.  :)

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:20:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #313

On  8 Aug 96 at 7:32, Devon Belcher spewed:

> > From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
> > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:28:54 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: Horizontal Decks
> > I would like the next person who quotes what a "realistic" starship of the
> > far future should be like to show me exactly how many "real" starships
> > they have seen, 3000 years from now to boot.
> 
> killjoy.

Maybe so, but I get real tired of watching people rip each other, 
because somehow they're prescient to the point that they know exactly 
what technology is going to look like 3000 years from now...when 
they really don't have any idea what its going to look like 100 years 
from now.  We've done things in the last 25 years that my grandfather 
is amazed by.  We have no clue what things will be like 3000 years 
from now...

Facts are none of us have a clue...  We might try showing a little 
more respect for 1 another's ideas...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:20:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

On  8 Aug 96 at 6:27, derek stanley spewed:

> 
> This is Hollywood we're talking about, we're just as likely to get Jackie 
> Chan or Ru Paul playing Juan Rico as we are to get Jimmy Smitts pr Paul 
> Rodrigues.
>  

Not likely, in this day and age...  Unless of course, Juan Rico 
is totally rewritten...  This is the age of political correctness, 
after all...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 8 Aug 96  8:51:02 MS
Subject: Starship Troopers Cast

Casting Starship Troopers, various people wrote:
>>*Sigh*  I suppose I'll see it.. but I'll miss the classes in Moral History..
>>picture Patrick Stewart as the High School instructor (Mr. DuBois?)
>
>        Or perhaps Fleet Sergeant Zim?

I was figuring R. Lee Ermey as Fleet Sergeant Zim.  Daisy Fuentes as Carmen.   
Edward James Olmos as Juan Rico's father.  As for Juan Rico; I would say Lou 
Diamond Phillips.

Picard as Mr DuBios?  I like that...

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:19:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Guilds

Another of RAH's really good youth oriented books was Citizen of the Galaxy.  
I don't rememeber if I read Starman Jones or not.  I may pick it up at the 
library and re-read it, just in case.

Matt

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:24:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Low Message Traffic -Reply

On  8 Aug 96 at 12:08, Richard L. Sezov spewed:

> >Hey!
> 
> >What's with the low message traffic? Everyone off at a game show
> >(wink,wink)?
> 
> I think everybody's holding their breath until the new version comes out.
> Not *everybody* can get to GenCon, you know. Some of us are slaves to
> the speed of Marc Miller's signature.  :)

Yup...  Here we are, e-mailing each other back and forth, on our 14.4 
or 28.8 modems (or faster, if you're royalty, and have ISDN...) and we've 
ground to a halt waiting for Marc to work off a case of writer's 
cramp... ;-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 12:26:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: GenCon

FYI , I'll be at GenCon Saturday and Sunday.

Pete


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

> From: gdw.support@genie.com (LKW)
> Date: Thu,  8 Aug 96 04:44:00 UTC 0000
> 
> Hmmm...this is a new record...we are trashing a movie more than a year
> before it comes out.

That's SF fans for you...always a bit ahead of their time...

> What I want to know, is how will the movie impact the "Rock Dropping"
> argument?  : )

Probably restart it -- of course, any reference to maneuver drives,
planetary invasions and defense, war strategy, or any other related topic
seems to restart it.  Heck, sheer random Brownian motion seems to restart
it. :)

>  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

Yes!  A very, very good game, perhaps handicapped by what must surely
qualify as the ugliest board ever developed by the gaming industry. 
"Smeared antipasto" was my favorite description -- from Fire & Movement, I
think.  I thought they did a really good job of capturing the 'feel' of
combat in Heinlein's novel.  There was also a steady stream of extensions
and variant rules in The General and elsewhere, mostly intriguing and
useful.  One big problem was that a few Bug strategies, clearly not
anticipated by the game designers, tended to unbalance the game -- notably
the 'protected breach' trick in 'into the tunnels' scenarios. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 15:21:11 -0500
Subject: Big Guns and Fertilizer!

On 08/08/96 at 07:32 AM,  Devon Belcher <devon@psych.colorado.edu> said:

>besides: don't we all REALLY want military ships, with lotsa speed and 
>big guns? 

Big guns, huh? <g>

>I don't play traveller to fantasize about selling fertilizer 
>planet - to - planet.

Actually, I play traveller to fantasize about *smuggling* little guns
*inside* the fertilizer...planet-to planet.  <g> 

Give me a Far Trader with a sandcaster and a pulse laser that the gunner
has to whack with a wrench to get to fire, a jump drive older than the
combined age of the crew and just as cranky as you'd expect, a cargo hole
filled with speculative trade goods that cost the crew every credit they
could scrape together, and a handful of mysterious passengers that you just
know aren't what they claim to be...ah yes!  Now *that's* a game!

Honestly, there are lots of us that aren't into ship to ship combat at all. 
Joe's Ridiculously Simple Ship Combat system will probably do *me* just
fine.  I like playing in (and GMing) trading games, exploration games,
games of intrigue..spy-counterspy stuff, and games that focus on
roleplaying.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 15:46:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Interstellar Commerce Regulation

On 08/08/96 at 07:50 AM,  Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com> said:

>I opted against testing. To easy to breeze in at testing time and sweep
>all the catagories one desires. This PC is a real "What's Zathra, the
>NPC's, engineering skill?" type. Or perhaps "How do I get my pilot,
>navigator, engineer, cargomaster, purple gumroot wine rating papers?"

Hee, why don't you do it the way I did in a game last year.  PC's had to
sit for Boards (exams) to move up in rank, and there were strict regs about
what each rank was allowed to do.  The PC's
actually had to roleplay Guild politics. <g>

To move up in rank they had to:

  1.  Complete X number of years at their current rank in a
      particular departmental function, ie.  Engineering,
      Astrogation, Piloting, etc.  Jumping around from department to
      department hurts the PC's chances of advancement..even if it
      does make her more well rounded.  <g>
  
  2.  Have a letter of recommendation from their most recent
      superior.  Sure you *hate* the old fart, but if you can't get
      on his good side, you're screwed! <g>
      
  3.  Sit for a single Board at a time.  So what if you're qualified
      to sit for 3 or 4 Boards, you can't do it.  Just let somebody
      catch you trying to sneak from the Pilot's Board to the
      Astrogator's Board!  If they do, you lose *all* your Papers!
  
Boards were held once or twice a year at specific locations, and they
*aren't* well publicized.  <g> Even if a PC was qualified to take the
Board, he had to be in the right place and the right time. AND politics on
the grading was always rearing its ugly head.  <g>

A PC might *really* be qualified to be Chief Enginner, but without Papers
they wouldn't find a job within the Empire.  The shipmaster would have to
hire a Papered Chief to fly!  Who would actually do the work was a
different story.  <g>


Eris  
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Friday, 9 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 316

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. GenCon: My Citizen!
         2. RE: Low Message Traffic
         3. This email address is dying tommorrow.
         4. Re: Starship Troopers
         5. Re: Low Message Traffic -Reply
         6. Re: Guilds
         7. Re: Guilds
         8. Re: Starship Troopers
         9. Re: Ships of Solee Empire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 21:12:38 -0500
Subject: GenCon: My Citizen!

Well, I'm back from GenCon for the night! (Gad, I love living an hour away
from it.)

Got my dogtag. My UPP is 9A88AB8. And let me tell YOU, the Physical test
was the toughest. Seriously.

I also think I got knocked down a point in Intelligence because I didn't
say that "Traveller" was my favorite game (it's hasn't been my *favorite*
since the black box version, and I'm dumb enough to be honest about it).

BUT...

10 a.m. tomorrow (Friday morning) the books arrive!

YEEEE-ha!

John Kovalic





******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 15:06:30 +1300
Subject: RE: Low Message Traffic

>From: FKiesche3@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:41:05 -0400
>Subject: Low Message Traffic
>
>Hey!
>
>What's with the low message traffic? Everyone off at a game show (wink,wink)?

It just gives us lurkers a chance to show ourselves ;-) It's times like
this that being stuck on the other side of the world is nor so great.

BTW is there anyone else on TML from down under?




------------------------------

From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 18:28:00 EST
Subject: This email address is dying tommorrow.

Hello everyone in my list of email addresses.
The idiots who run my account here are changing the address from tommorrow!

So:

Please redirect all mail, mailing lists, etc to:

django@bf.rmit.edu.au

Seeya soon (but not on this account),

Django.

PS/ sorry if this is hard for any of you list admin types but I've only been 
told this only 10 minutes ago (he says typing this 20 minutes after work).

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:07:07 +1000
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Ron Dawson wrote:

> 
> gdw.support@genie.com writes:
> 
> >  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?
> 
> Yes.  It was the first time I had ever played a Sci-Fi game.  Before that
> it was just wargames.  We got into Traveller shortly after that.  I seem
> to recall winning that first game - I was the bugs - although I didn't
> fully know what I was doing.  Wish I still had access to the game. Our
> gaming group split up all over creation. *sigh* 
> 
> - Ron


I have seen a few copies around Sydney Australia. They where at a shop 
called napoleons. If you want a copy, email Andrew (the manager) at 
drew@geko.com.au (I think this account is still active) or ring/fax 
+61-2-9286-7560. 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:10:17 +1000
Subject: Re: Low Message Traffic -Reply

On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Richard L. Sezov wrote:

> >Hey!
> 
> >What's with the low message traffic? Everyone off at a game show
> >(wink,wink)?
> 
> I think everybody's holding their breath until the new version comes out.
> Not *everybody* can get to GenCon, you know. Some of us are slaves to
> the speed of Marc Miller's signature.  :)
> 
Here in the Arse End of the Universe (TM , Paul Keating Enterprises, used 
without permission), we do not get any info about GenCon. Could someone 
post a message discribing the events , highlights , lowlights (I imagine 
it is all the comericalism of the Atlanta Olympics with more potential 
mad bombers :-)


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:59:32 PST
Subject: Re: Guilds

In mail you write:

> I don't rememeber if I read Starman Jones or not.  I may pick it up at the 
> library and re-read it, just in case.

Funny you should mention that book. The guild system is *very* evident
in the beginning chapters of the book!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 01:00:53 PST
Subject: Re: Guilds

In mail you write:

> If you ignore the occasional anachronism (circular slide rules, the ship's
> computer is possibly mechanical--definately "low tek"), it's a great book,
> especially for young adults (the intended audience).

Actually, circular slide rules are *more* convenient than a calculator
for some operations.

And the computer is indeed electronic. A mechanical computer wouldn't
have used binary.

What we have there is a glimpse of a period of computer history you
don't hear much about. The computer is semi-dedicated (much like Eniac)
to doing math calculations. And they haven't invented *assemblers* yet!
So you enter your programs in machine language, then toggle in the data
in binary.

That's one of the worlds I'd visit if I had the ability to visit
alternate universes. I'd be able to make a *large* fortune by patenting
assemblers, compilers, high level languages, etc. Patenting more
reasonable i/o devices would make money too. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:45:01 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

In mail you write:

>  In reality, the movie may very well result in a reprint of the novel,

Uneccesary. Most Heinlein *never* goes out of print except while
negotiations on buying rights from the current owner are going on. Baen
Books is reprinting a lot of the stuff right now.

>  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

Yep. And if there was a computer version (It's been a *long* time) then
that's sitting in storage with the rest of my AH computer games.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:57:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Ships of Solee Empire

On Aug 07, 1996 21:53:09, 'derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>' wrote: 
 
 
>I've never really though as the Planet as being an upsized SEH...  They  
>look so different.  I think that what you're looking at is the SEH on the 

>side of the Planet picture, the Planet is that thing in the foreground  
>that looks like a shuttle, that's a particle accellerator in the middle  
>not a docking ring.  There's another...  oops looking at the picture now 
>The SEH is the ship on the extreme right of the picture the big thing in  
>the upper left is a Planet...  They never should have put the two ships  
>in one shot... 
 
Well, in Battle Rider they're given the same external profile, 
with just a size difference. 
 
Just to add to the fun, that configuration first appeared 
as the Ghalalk-class 50,000-ton armored cruiser from  
Supplement 9:Fighting Ships, so that makes at least 
_three_ classes with that profile. 
 
It's tempting to design matching close escorts and 
fighters. :) 
 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 10 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 317

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Gen Conners, I envy you
         2. Re: Ships of Solee Empire
         3. The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers)
         4. Re: Guilds
         5. Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers)
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #315
         7. Re: Starship Troopers
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316
         9. Micro Trek
        10. Not really AI Programs
        11. Re: GenCon: My Citizen!
        12. Re: Not really AI Programs
        13. T4:  Ranks and Mustering Out
        14. On bunks, lowberths an cabins...
        15. Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-) (fwd)
        16. Re: Not really AI Programs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:00:00 MET
Subject: Gen Conners, I envy you

Truly do! Sniff!

V.A.G.                                              FNORD!

- ------ Volker A. Greimann.......Grei5001@uni-trier.de ----
- ------ I play Traveller,I Play INWO,I play Diplomacy  ---- 

- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!"

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 06:32:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Ships of Solee Empire

John H Bogan Jr wrote:

> Well, in Battle Rider they're given the same external profile,
> with just a size difference.
> 
> Just to add to the fun, that configuration first appeared
> as the Ghalalk-class 50,000-ton armored cruiser from
> Supplement 9:Fighting Ships, so that makes at least
> _three_ classes with that profile.
> 
> It's tempting to design matching close escorts and
> fighters. :)

Perhaps the Imperial Starship Design Bureau lost something in the suffle. 

"Here's the design spec's for the SEH and the Planet."

"Ummmm... You know these both look the same..."

"Precisely, that way we confuse all those alien bastards out there into 
thinking we have hundreds of Planets when infact we only have two and 
lots of SEH's."

"But the deckplan layouts are different."

"All right I spilled coffee on the original exterior for the SEH, no one 
will ever know about this but us though."

Maybe that's what happened.  Then again maybe there's a shipsboat, 
fighter, freighter, SDB and battlerider all based on the same silouette.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 08:40:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers)

Speaking of Heinlien, what did folks think of The Puppet Masters?  

Brilliant casting of one of my favorite actors (Donald Sutherland) but
otherwise a bit mediocre, they *did* (as far as my 10 or so year old
memory could detect) keep to the feel and style of the novel, however.

I consumed, yes consumed Heinlien as an adolescent and young adult.  His
was the first book I ever sat down to read and didn't get up until I
finished it.

Were any other Heinlien novels made into movies?  Maybe we can get
Hollywood to take on "Stranger in a Strange Land"!  I'd really grok that!

Of course, if they use "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" we may see some
kick-ass rock dropping (Pete dives for cover).

Pete


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:17:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Guilds

On Aug 09, 1996 00:59:32, 'shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)'
wrote: 
 
>In mail you write: 
> 
>> I don't rememeber if I read Starman Jones or not.  I may pick it up at
the  
>> library and re-read it, just in case. 
> 
>Funny you should mention that book. The guild system is *very* evident 
>in the beginning chapters of the book! 
 
I've been thinking about that book ever since the thread on  
guild systems started.  Just been too lazy to mention it. :-) 
(Besides, someone else finally did). 
 
                     --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:22:18 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers)

On Aug 09, 1996 08:40:56, '"Peter  H. Brenton"
<pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>' wrote: 
 
>Speaking of Heinlien, what did folks think of The Puppet Masters?   
> 
>Brilliant casting of one of my favorite actors (Donald Sutherland) but 
>otherwise a bit mediocre, they *did* (as far as my 10 or so year old 
>memory could detect) keep to the feel and style of the novel, however. 
 
It did keep to the plot and feel of the novel, but, as you say, 
it was somehow a bit mediocre.  Donald Sutherland made a *great* 
"Old Man"! 
 
>I consumed, yes consumed Heinlien as an adolescent and young adult.  His 
>was the first book I ever sat down to read and didn't get up until I 
>finished it. 
 
I've been re-reading them recently, but I survived my late adolescence 
on Heinlein, Doc Smith and Andre Norton. 
 
>Were any other Heinlien novels made into movies?  Maybe we can get 
>Hollywood to take on "Stranger in a Strange Land"!  I'd really grok that! 
 
They'd never get it the point, they'd just ruin it.  As for 
other movies, I believe that "Destination Moon" is (very loosely) 
based on "Rocketship Galileo". 
 
>Of course, if they use "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" we may see some 
>kick-ass rock dropping (Pete dives for cover). 
 
Funny, ever since I heard about "Starship Troopers", I've been thinking 
that "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" would make a kick-ass scifi movie. 
 
                         --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"People should take things rock stars say with a grain of salt  
 because there's no one in rock and roll right now who's a  
 relevant example of a spokesperson for anything"  -- Kurt Cobain 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:34:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #315

>To move up in rank they had to:
>
I am not opting for a test based restriction because:
  1) I wanted to get my NPC aboard in the role of engineer.
  2) I wanted the process to be more onerous for the "test oriented" PC
  3) I wanted to maximize the roleplaying while he pulls his bulk into tight
     spaces with a smaller more highly skilled NPC gives him instruction.

Sometimes a PC needs a subtle lesson in humility and a nudge to learn the
universe wasn't designed for him specifically.

Recommended reading for this month:
_The Death of Common Sense_ by Philip Howard; Warner Books; $10.99


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 12:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

On 08/09/96 at 12:45 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>In mail you write:

>>  In reality, the movie may very well result in a reprint of the novel,

>Uneccesary. Most Heinlein *never* goes out of print except while
>negotiations on buying rights from the current owner are going on. Baen
>Books is reprinting a lot of the stuff right now.

It's not a matter of being out of print, exactly.  Jane Austin is never out
of print either, but with the raft of movies based on her works lately
there have been special editions tying in with the movies, and I'm *sure*
there have been many people to discover her through those movies and the
editions of her books they spawned.  

>>  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

Bought it, played it, stored it away somewhere.  Not AH's best effort, IMO.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:52:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316

At 08:00 AM 8/9/96 -0400, Leonard wrote:

>That's one of the worlds I'd visit if I had the ability to visit
>alternate universes. I'd be able to make a *large* fortune by patenting
>assemblers, compilers, high level languages, etc. Patenting more
>reasonable i/o devices would make money too. :-)
>

Leonard, Duke and Karl from the astrogartors guild would like to talk with
you... No, back here where its private... Duke, you got that tire iron?

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:54:47 -0500
Subject: Micro Trek

A friend of mine sent me this and I thought you might enjoy it.  Let me
preface this article by saying that I use IBM & Win 3.1 currently and I have
nothing against laywers.  Read on and enjoy

>*****************************************************************************
>"Star Trek Lost Episodes" transcript.
>*****************************************************************************
>
>
><Pichard> "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at
>finding a weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to
>access their command pathways?"
>
><Geordi>"Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through
>our archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology."
>
><Geordi presses a  key, and a logo appears on the computer screen.>
>
><Riker looks puzzled.> "What the hell is 'Microsoft'?"
>
><Data turns to answer.> "Allow me to explain. We will send this program,
>for some reason called 'Windows', through the Borg command pathways.
>Once inside their root command unit, it will begin consuming system
>resources at an unstoppable rate."
>
><Pichard> "But the Borg have the ability to adapt. Won't they alter
>their processing systems to increase their storage capacity?"
>
><Data> "Yes, Captain. But when 'Windows' detects this, it creates a new
>version of itself known as an 'upgrade'. The use of resources increases
>exponentially with each iteration. The Borg will not be able to adapt
>quickly enough. Eventually all of their processing ability will be taken
>over and none will be available for their normal operational functions."
>
><Pichard> "Excellent work. This is even better than that 'unsolvable
>geometric shape' idea."
>
>
><Data>  "Captain, We have successfully installed the 'Windows' in the
>command unit and as expected it immediately consumed 85% of all
>resources.  We however have not received any confirmation of the
>expected 'upgrade'."
>
><Geordi> "Our scanners have picked up an increase in Borg storage and
>CPU capacity to compensate, but we still have no indication of an
>'upgrade' to compensate for their increase."
>
><Pichard>  "Data, scan the history banks again and determine if their is
>something we have missed."
>
><Data>  "Sir, I believe their is a reason for the failure in the
>'upgrade'.  Appearently the Borg have circumvented that part of the plan
>by not sending in their registration cards.
>
><Riker>  "Captain we have no choice.  Requesting permission to begin
>emergency escape sequence 3F . . ."
>
><Geordi, excited>  "Wait, Captain I just detected their CPU capacity has
>suddenly dropped to 0% !"
>
><Pichard>  "Data, what does your scanners show?"
>
><Data>  "Appearently the Borg have found the internal 'Windows' module
>named 'Solitaire' and it has used up all the CPU capacity."
>
><Pichard>  "Lets wait and see how long this 'solitaire' can reduce their
>functionality."
>
><Riker>  "Geordi whats the status on the Borg?"
>
><Geordi>  "As expected the Borg are attempting to re-engineer to
>compensate for increased CPU and storage demands, but each time they
>successfully increase resources I have setup our closest deep space
>monitor beacon to transmit more 'windows' modules from something called
>the 'Microsoft fun-pack'.
>
><Pichard> "How much time will that buy us ?"
>
><Data>  "Current Borg solution rates allow me to predicate an interest
>time span of 6 more hours."
>
><Geordi>  "Captain, another vessel has entered our sector."
>
><Pichard>  "Identify."
>
><Data>  "It appears to have markings very similar to the 'Microsoft'
>logo"
>
><Over the speakers>  "THIS IS ADMIRAL BILL GATES OF THE MICROSOFT
>FLAGSHIP MONOPOLY.  WE HAVE POSITIVE CONFIRMATION OF UNREGISTERED
>SOFTWARE IN THIS SECTOR.  SURRENDER ALL ASSETS AND WE CAN AVOID ANY
>TROUBLE.  YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS"
>
><Data>  "The alien ship has just opened its forward hatches and released
>thousands of humanoid shaped objects."
>
><Pichard>  "Magnify forward viewer on the alien craft"
>
><Riker>  "Good God captain!  Those are humans floating straight toward
>the Borg ship with no life support suits !  How can they survive the
>tortures of deep space ?!"
>
><Data>  "I don't believe that those are humans sir, if you will look
>closer I believe you will see that they are carrying something
>recognized by twenty-first century man as doe skin leather briefcases,
>and wearing Armani suits"
>
><Riker and Pichard together horrified>  "Lawyers !!"
>
><Geordi>  "It can't be.  All the Lawyers were rounded up and sent
>hurtling into the sun in 2017 during the Great Awakening."
>
><Data>  "True, but appearently some must have survived."
>
><Riker>  "They have surrounded the Borg ship and are covering it with
>all types of papers."
>
><Data>  "I believe that is known in ancient venacular as 'red tape' it
>often proves fatal."
>
><Riker>  "They're tearing the Borg to pieces !"
>
><Pichard>  "Turn off the monitors.  I can't stand to watch, not even the
>Borg deserve that."
>
>
>----
>
>
>It's a nasty war, but somebody has to fight it.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:54:43 -0500
Subject: Not really AI Programs

>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
>Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:37:37 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: RSSC
>
>On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
>> 
>> I hope to do that.  Actually, I plan on meeting as many TMLers who are at 
>> GenCon as possible.  It'll be nice to assure eachother that we are, 
>> indeed, real people and not just AI programs. :P
>			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Speak for yourself Joe. ;)
>
>
>Tom

Great.  Its wonderful to know that the guy running our PBEM game is really
an AI that could any day now be infected with Virus!!!  Makes me real
comfortable to make decisions!!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 20:00:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: GenCon: My Citizen!

On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, John Kovalic wrote:

> Well, I'm back from GenCon for the night! (Gad, I love living an hour away
> from it.)

Me, too. :)

> Got my dogtag. My UPP is 9A88AB8. And let me tell YOU, the Physical test
> was the toughest. Seriously.

Strength was tough, but I had the worst time with the Endurance test.  
Sigh.  


> 10 a.m. tomorrow (Friday morning) the books arrive!
> 
> YEEEE-ha!

As you know by now,the books arrived today...but only the softbound 
edition. :(  Hardbounds come in tomorrow.  

I got a softbound edition.  For the most part, I've only looked through 
it.  It looks like most of it was taken right out of The Traveller Book, 
word for word.  Then they changed it as needed.  

The only section I've read in-depth is the short (2-page) Task System 
chapter.  There are no errors of logic that I could find in it (after 
only reading it once), and no spelling errors.  BUT, there were tons and 
tons of grammatical errors.  Things like using plural words when a 
singular was called for (ie, adding an 's' to a noun unnecessarily), and 
stuff like that.  It doesn't make it unintelligible.  It just looks sloppy.

Oh, and those looking for a Rediculously Simple Ship Combat System from 
me are going to be disappointed.  Today I played a great starship combat 
system, called "Traveller Starship Combat System" appropriately enough, 
and administered by David Golden.  Although it is in Alpha testing right 
now, it will clearly be a simple, exciting system to use.  Sadly, it 
isn't due out until 1997. :(  But, I'm having fun playing it at Gen-Con.  
I've got my tickets for one of the games tomorrow as well. :)

Met with Marc Miller and Ken Whitman at the seminar.  The seminar 
consisted entirely of questions and answers.  It was quite worth the 
time.  They discussed a lot of things we TMLers already know, but hearing 
the philosophy of Traveller stated by Marc Miller in person is 
heartening.  

Also, Marc and Ken outlined their plans to set up product demonstrations 
in game stores in order to attract customers.  They also asked that 
Traveller referees try running a game or two in the local store, if space 
is available for that.  

Welp, what I've written probably isn't very clear, and it certainly is 
incomplete, but I'm pretty excited, so I'm babbling. :)  Just let me 
summarize:  

1)  Gen-Con is a load of fun.

2)  Imperium Games' "Marc Miller's Traveller Starship Battles" is /the/ 
game for those who want quick and fun space combat.

3)  T4 is out, and it looks good.  Very playable, relying heavily on The 
Traveler Book for source material (Exit Visa is in there, most of the 
introduction to Traveller and referee's introduction to Traveller 
sections are straight out of The Traveller book, etc.).  The skills, 
characters, and starships sections are exactly what we've been told they 
would be.  

That's it for now...

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:34:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Not really AI Programs

On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> 
> 
> Great.  Its wonderful to know that the guy running our PBEM game is really
> an AI that could any day now be infected with Virus!!!  Makes me real
> comfortable to make decisions!!!


Quiet you, or I will drop relativistic rocks on you ;)

> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 21:37:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4:  Ranks and Mustering Out

Hmmm.  I seem to have found an error.  The first thing I decided to do 
under the T4 rule system was create a character.  All went well until I 
got to the mustering out stage.  Then, I discovered an error..which led 
to other errors.  Here they are:

1)  The mustering out rules have the old rules for the number of throws 
you get to add based on rank.  That is, rank 1-2 adds one die, 3-4 adds 2 
dice, and 5-6 adds 3 dice, and you get +1 on your rolls.  The problem is 
that the ranks used are not 1-6, but E1-E9,O1-Ox (where x is anywhere 
from 7 to 10).  How do you translate these ranks into the old 1-6 ranking?

2)  The Merchant Captain Alexander Jamison example uses the Navy ranks, 
not the Merchant ranks.

3)  The book confusingly switches between "years" and "terms" in 
discussing the character generation process.  Perhaps this isn't an 
error, but simply a lack of understanding on my part. It's my first time 
through it, after all. 

Has anyone puzzled any of this out yet?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 21:30:08 -0700
Subject: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

Evening all...

Though has just occured as I travelled along the East West Connector 
heading to my favorate hobby store.

Given that in FF&S and I'd imagine in SSDS and QSDS that both a low berth 
and a bunk both displace 14 cubic meters and that at small stateroom and 
an emergency lowberth for 4 displace 28 cubic meters.  Would it not be 
advantageous to the longterm survival of the crew in emergency situations 
to replace standard small cabins with two low berths, bunks with a single 
low berth and large cabins with four low berths?

Surely a low berth, capable of sustaining human life in suspended 
animation for years could be left open and used as a bunk, if you assume 
that the wires and hoses can be retracted into containers on the side and 
the clear lid could be rolled back into the wall, why couldn't you use it 
as a bunk, sure it'd be like sleeping in a coffin, but given the 
alternative of ending up in a coffin or sleeping in one, I'd rather take 
the nap...

Granted the power requirements and such are higher, but if you assume 
that it's possible to stack low berths like bunkbeds surely you could fit 
two low berths into the area of a small cabin with enough room left over 
for a head and shower combination (fresher for lack of a better term).  
This allows for the increased survivability of individual mission members 
on smaller vessels ie. 100 ton scout.

For example, Jimmy Big Bootie is mortally wounded on an away mission but 
is returned to the ship still alive, if this ship is a 400 ton fat trader 
with standard low berths Jimmy is in good shape.  However, if Jimmy's 
ship is an S-Class Scout Jimmy's toast.  0% chance of survival if there's 
no medical surgeon on the ship and with a crew of 4 what are the odds of 
that?  Slim and None and Slim just left town...  If Jimmy's ship had 
converted their bunks over to low berths everyone would have a chance for 
survival.

Am I making any sence here or is this just hooie?  Excuse me sir but if 
you don't mind me saying but isn't that a lot of Hooie?

Comments, critisims, FLAMES!!

Listed of course in order of preference.

Derek Stanley
Roasting on the Left Coast of Canada.  

It's Abbotsford Airshow weekend folks, one of the biggest airshows in 
North America.

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:01:38 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-) (fwd)

Dear Folks -

Here is Matt's reply to my inquiry (I don't think he'll mind if I forward=
=20
this to you).

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:12:46 -0500
From: Matt Machtan <ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com>
To: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

Dear David Jaques-Watson,

>However, does sending stuff to these mailing list count as "publishing"?

To respond to your question, no sending 'stuff' to the mailing lists does
not count as publishing.  You may post your future JTAS article on say the
X-boat or Traveller Digest and get feedback from all of the awesome
TRAVELLER fans there-in, especially since until you actually submit the
work WITH A DISCLAIMER FORM, it is not Imperium Games property.  Note that
the whole idea behind the Disclaimer form is that you are selling your work
to Imperium Games.  Imperium Games is purchasing your work, much the same
as from a freelancer.  In essence, you ARE a freelance author/artist if you
submit your work to JTAS.

>My hope is that the lists can be
>used to knock the rough edges off an article (or plug the gaping holes)
>so that the final submitted work is as good as you can make it.

Absolutely,for the purposes of feedback we highly encourage you to post
your future article on the mailing lists.  It gives you a better idea of
how your article looks through someone elses eyes.  They may find a
mistake, or perhaps make a suggestion that would have otherwise gone
unnoticed.

IMPORTANT to note, is that while your future article is not yet Imperium
Games property, anytime you use or refer to Marc Miler's TRAVELLER=AE, be i=
t
on paper, or computer you MUST include the Trademark Disclaimer:
"TRAVELLER is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.  All rights
reserved."

If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.

Matt Machtan
Imperium Games

- --------------------

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:41:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Not really AI Programs

On  9 Aug 96 at 18:54, Paul Walker spewed:

> >From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>

> Great.  Its wonderful to know that the guy running our PBEM game is really
> an AI that could any day now be infected with Virus!!!  Makes me real
> comfortable to make decisions!!!

Actually, you could probably make a case of him being already 
infected with Virus

Stu ducks for cover...

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 10 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 318

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Traveller Language Generation Charts
         2. Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:31:42 +0900
Subject: Traveller Language Generation Charts

I checked my old JTAS and I think the first person to come up with the 
current standard for word generation in Traveller languages was John 
Harshman in JTAS 17.  I could be wrong.  Anyway, the point is that I'm 
curious where he got the idea for dividing up syllables into C VC CVC and 
differentuating between groups of sounds that occur initially, finally, and 
so on, and the idea that there is a proportion for the occurance of certain 
syllable types (he lists the proportion for Vilani V, CV, VC, CVC as 
1:4:3:2).

I am a student of linguistics and a language teacher, and I realize that a 
lot of this comes from phonetics and so on.  What I really want to know is 
what books he used as a reference for this information.  I assume these 
references he used gave this kind of information for real world languages, 
and I'd like to see it.  I'm also curious as to what the Traveller word 
generation table for English would look like.  I plan to use this 
information for creating and generating minor languages in Traveller as well 
as other RPGs.

Can anybody help?

Thanks!  Oh, and how was GenCon?  The only bad thing about living in Japan 
is that going to GenCon costs a fortune I don't have.

Armand



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:43:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Given that in FF&S and I'd imagine in SSDS and QSDS that both a low berth 
> and a bunk both displace 14 cubic meters and that at small stateroom and 
> an emergency lowberth for 4 displace 28 cubic meters.  Would it not be 
> advantageous to the longterm survival of the crew in emergency situations 
> to replace standard small cabins with two low berths, bunks with a single 
> low berth and large cabins with four low berths?

That makes sense to me, but then I don't know the exact specifications of 
a low berth.  But if the design of the berth allows for such usage, it 
would certainly be reasonable to do as you suggest.  I'd say it would be 
especially popular on the small ships, like Far Traders and whatnot.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #318
**********************************

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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 10 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 319

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316
         3. Low Berths
         4. Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316
         6. Re: Low Berths
         7. Re: Low Berths
         8. Re: On bunks, lowberths and cabins...
         9. _Arcane_ T4 Special
        10. Re: Traveller Language Generation Charts
        11. Software Announcement
        12. Re: Low Berths
        13. Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...
        14. Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)
        15. More on T4
        16. Re: Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:45:15 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316

In mail you write:

> At 08:00 AM 8/9/96 -0400, Leonard wrote:
>
>>That's one of the worlds I'd visit if I had the ability to visit
>>alternate universes. I'd be able to make a *large* fortune by patenting
>>assemblers, compilers, high level languages, etc. Patenting more
>>reasonable i/o devices would make money too. :-)
>
> Leonard, Duke and Karl from the astrogartors guild would like to talk with
> you... No, back here where its private... Duke, you got that tire iron?

No problem. I'd stop off and hire some Dorsai bodyguards first. :-)

BTW, if you think the K'kree are bad, check out the natives on the
planet they accidentally discovered in "Starman Jones". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:27:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> No problem. I'd stop off and hire some Dorsai bodyguards first. :-)
> 
> BTW, if you think the K'kree are bad, check out the natives on the
> planet they accidentally discovered in "Starman Jones". 

The PC's in  my PBEM game are soon to meet natives of a desert world who
make Herbert's Fremen look like pansies.  The routinely render captives
for water after a ritual strangulation, and have been known to take on and
beat higher tech, larger forces routinely.

And knowing this, they STILL want to go, go figure.


> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:52:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Low Berths

> Given that in FF&S and I'd imagine in SSDS and QSDS that both a low berth 
> and a bunk both displace 14 cubic meters and that at small stateroom and 
> an emergency lowberth for 4 displace 28 cubic meters.  Would it not be 
> advantageous to the longterm survival of the crew in emergency situations 
> to replace standard small cabins with two low berths, bunks with a single 
> low berth and large cabins with four low berths?
> 
> Surely a low berth, capable of sustaining human life in suspended 
> animation for years could be left open and used as a bunk, if you assume 
> that the wires and hoses can be retracted into containers on the side and 
> the clear lid could be rolled back into the wall, why couldn't you use it 
> as a bunk, sure it'd be like sleeping in a coffin, but given the 
> alternative of ending up in a coffin or sleeping in one, I'd rather take 
> the nap...
<snip> 
> Am I making any sence here or is this just hooie?  Excuse me sir but if 
> you don't mind me saying but isn't that a lot of Hooie?

	Well, since you asked, yes it is a lot of hooie.  The bunk 
includes space for a head, common areas, a place to eat, a chair, 
probably some kind of entertainment console, space to store your 
clothes, etc.  Granted, it's a bunk, so there's not a _lot_ of room for 
these things, but they're there.  The low berth on the other hand takes 
up almost all of that 14m^3 with machinery with just enough left over for 
access space and a place to lie down.  That means if you replace bunks 
with low berths everyone has to keep their clothes and personal effects 
in the cargo hold, eat with their food in their lap and their legs 
hanging over the side of the low berth, and dispose of human waste by 
throwing it out an airlock.

 

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:32:17 -0700
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

Joe Walsh wrote:

> especially popular on the small ships, like Far Traders and whatnot.
>                                                             ^^^^^^^

	I can remeber being stranded on a "Whatnot" for months, it's kind 
of an early precursor to a "Whojamieflipper" and lets not forget the 
final varient, the "Thingamebob".    8)

Sorry...  8)

Okay I'm not...  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:37:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #316

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>Leonard, Duke and Karl from the astrogartors guild would like to talk                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm guessing this would be related to the Astrostockings guild and 
closely tied into the Astropushupbra guild.  8)

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!!

Man I'm in a wierd mood this morning. 8)

Derke Stanley

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:46:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Low Berths

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, John Macpherson wrote:
>=20
> =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
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=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
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=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00
>=20

What exactly is that? Other than an incredible waste of bandwidth that is.
;)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________=20


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:00:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Low Berths

John Macpherson wrote:

>         Well, since you asked, yes it is a lot of hooie.  The bunk
>includes space for a head, common areas, a place to eat, a chair,
>probably some kind of entertainment console, space to store your
>clothes, etc.  Granted, it's a bunk, so there's not a _lot_ of room for
>these things, but they're there.  The low berth on the other hand takes
>up almost all of that 14m^3 with machinery with just enough left over 
>for access space and a place to lie down.  That means if you replace 
>bunks with low berths everyone has to keep their clothes and personal 
>effects in the cargo hold, eat with their food in their lap and their 
>legs hanging over the side of the low berth, and dispose of human waste 
>by throwing it out an airlock.

The low berth can't take up 14m^3 of space because a 4 man low berth can 
be cramed into 28m^3.  Obviously a 2 man low berth could be crammed into 
far less that 28m^3 and if you organized your low berths like bunk beds 
lets face it no one, not even me at 6'8", needs a bed thats 4 meters 
(13.5 feet) long, although it would be nice...

Waste disposal and such is covered under life support so I don't see that 
as a problem, plus I'm willing to budget extra space for that if enough 
people feel that it's a problem.

Even during normal ship construction there's really no rules for 
budgeting ship's common space, it just sort of appears as we see fit when 
we're putting down the deck plans.  I know I've never designed a ship 
thinking, well I've got to bugets 20m^3 so there's a dining room on this 
ship, heck  no 20m^3 is always cargo/fuel/electronics or weapons.

Even if you assume that the bunks take up all 28m^3 for a four man 
lowberth, that's technically 2 men more than you could fit into a single 
small stateroom of equal size, if you budget an extra 14m^3 for a head 
that still leaves you with an extra 14m^3 to get back to where you would 
have been in the first place with 2 smalls staterooms.  I'm sure that the 
crew on a sub sleeps more than 4 men per 28m^3.

Using the above example if you had a crew of 16, I like easy math for 
examples, that'd mean you'd need 4, 4 man low berths for sleeping areas 
you'd could probably get away with cutting the number of head's in half, 
I'm assuming this is a military boat not a passanger ship, thus you've 
already displaced (28x4)+(2x14) or 140m^3, if you were to budget the room 
for small staterooms for all of this you'd have (28x8) or 224m^3 budgeted 
thus leaving yourself with (224-140) or 84m^3 for common areas.  That's 6 
displacement tons or six hexes on your deckplans or an area 6mx4m 
(19.8 feet x 13.2 feet).  Space for common area that you would never have 
had in the first place.

I'm hoping that this explains my theory a little more clearly than I did 
last night.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths and cabins...

> On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> 
> > Given that in FF&S and I'd imagine in SSDS and QSDS that both a low berth 
> > and a bunk both displace 14 cubic meters and that at small stateroom and 
> > an emergency lowberth for 4 displace 28 cubic meters.  Would it not be 
> > advantageous to the longterm survival of the crew in emergency situations 
> > to replace standard small cabins with two low berths, bunks with a single 
> > low berth and large cabins with four low berths?

I don't think you could simply substitute a low berth for a bunk or two 
for a small stateroom.  Part of the space allocated for bunks, and 
especially for small staterooms is for plumbing. closets, perhaps some 
minimal amount of furniture...  I would assume the the 14 m3 for a low 
berth includes the low berth, and space for access, and little else.

However, I can see a few ways around this.

1) The least inconvenient for Type S Scouts and Far Traders would be to
simply change each crew cabin from 4 to 3.5 tons and to use the extra space
for an emergency low berth.  On a Scout ship this is perfect, instead of
4, 4 ton cabins you have 4, 3.5 ton cabins and one ELB. 

2) Another, somewhat less comfortable way to go is to convert half the
space in each small stateroom into a low berth which can be slept in.  You
get one per small stateroom and 2 per large.  Things would be a little more
cramped, but still habitable, and everyone would have their own low berth. 

Option 1 sounds a whole lot more comfy to me, but the disadvantage of an 
ELB is that if two folks are hurt or killed at different time you have to 
thaw out the first poor sucker to put the 2nd one in, so it likely evens 
out.  I would expect a number ships on the fringe to use one or the other 
of these options fairly often, good thought. 

Heck, even converting one ton of cargo space into a single low berth would
greatly increase the odds of survival of the crew. 


Good idea.

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 20:39 BST-1
Subject: _Arcane_ T4 Special

In-Reply-To: <199608101200.IAA00330@NS.MPGN.COM>

_Arcane_#10 popped through my letterbox this morning. It includes a 
6-page feature on the history of Traveller + interview with MM, and a 
4-page review of T4 (they give it 9/10). The artwork looks very nice, 
but I was disappointed to read that IG decided not to drop the 'half 
dice' idea, and have gone back to what sounds like the basic char gen 
system (hopefully there'll be a Book 4/5/6/7 equivalent to follow).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 10 Aug 1996 19:08:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller Language Generation Charts

Do you have a Macintosh?  Six years ago I wrote a HyperCard program to create
Traveller language tables from text samples.  Not too hard to do (assuming
that the user indicates syllable boundaries).

I ran through every Terran language I had access to, by the simple expedient
of entering the first word on each page of my translation dictionary.  This
gave me Maori, Spanish, English, French, Dutch, German, Finnish, Tagalog, and
Italian.  Maori and Tagalog worked best, but both have fairly regular
syllable structures.

Another option is to write (or obtain) a program that creates a probability
matrix for the next letter (including a space as a letter) based on the
preceeding 2-5 letters.  In English, if you do this with a five-letter
pattern you can tel the difference between fake Shakespear and fake Dickens.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 10 Aug 1996 19:23:50 GMT
Subject: Software Announcement

Having spent an idyllic month on the Sunshine Coast - just sun, surf, cedars,
eagles, and my Mac - I've virtually finished my system generation program for
the Macintosh.  In fact, I'm now ready for beta testing.

Metator (not the earlier application, which I've renamed) generates - or
expands from basic UWP - a complete system.  The system can be displayed as a
text listing, a simplified schematic, or a simpliflied chart showing the
relative orbital locations of each planet.  Graphics are colour on black
(with the option of printing colour on white to save ink/toner).

Each planet is further detailed with:

- - objects in sky (satellites, other worlds), with locations and apparent
sizes
- - period, rotation, orbital eccentricity, axial tilt, albedo
- - core type, density, mass, gravity, horizon, native life
- - atmospheric composition and pressure
- - temperature chart
- - world map
- - local population, cities, customs, attitudes
- - government description
- - legal profile
- - tech profile
- - gross world product, credit name/value, notable resources
- - atmospheric pressure and water pressure tables
- - passenger and freight rolls, unique cargo table (based on the system I
described in June)
- - satellite chart
- - animal encounter tables

I have some known bugs to track down, and some features to finish (such as
armd forces description) but I think some beta testing now would be really
useful.

My earlier Metator, now renamed Imperial Grand Survey, is almost finished as
well.  It was actually working before I tried to add all the above features,
so it's just a matter of removing the last few 'enhancements' and getting it
to compile.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:50:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Low Berths

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, John Macpherson wrote:

> access space and a place to lie down.  That means if you replace bunks 
> with low berths everyone has to keep their clothes and personal effects 
> in the cargo hold, eat with their food in their lap and their legs 
> hanging over the side of the low berth, and dispose of human waste by 
> throwing it out an airlock.

Yes, but what are the disadvantages? :)

'Course, there's another option: eating at your station. :)  

Captain:  "Fire all weapons!"
Gunner: "Uh...just a sec, let me clean the nacho cheese off the console 
so I can see what I'm doing."


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:52:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> > especially popular on the small ships, like Far Traders and whatnot.
> >                                                             ^^^^^^^
> 
> 	I can remeber being stranded on a "Whatnot" for months, it's kind 
> of an early precursor to a "Whojamieflipper" and lets not forget the 
> final varient, the "Thingamebob".    8)
> 
> Sorry...  8)
> 
> Okay I'm not...  8)

Yeah, yeah.  You're just jealous that I have T4 and you don't. :P


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 22:04:07 -0400
Subject: Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
> 1)  The mustering out rules have the old rules for the number of throws 
> you get to add based on rank.  That is, rank 1-2 adds one die, 3-4 adds 2 
> dice, and 5-6 adds 3 dice, and you get +1 on your rolls.  The problem is 
> that the ranks used are not 1-6, but E1-E9,O1-Ox (where x is anywhere 
> from 7 to 10).  How do you translate these ranks into the old 1-6 ranking?

This is the same problem that folks had when using Books 4, 5, 6,
and 7 to generate characters (and also an indication of poor
editing and playtesting [*]).

There are two solutions: the rank descriptions _should_ have a
number in parentheses following the title.  This number is the
Traveller Rank equivalent (to be used for generating mustering-out
benefits).  This number is probably otherwise-unexplained in the
rules.

Failing that, use the following rule of thumb:

Rank	Traveller Rank
E1-E9	0
O1-O2	1
O3	2
O4	3
O5	4
O6-O7	5
O8-O10	6

This is valid for most services, with a few exceptions.  If the
service only goes to O7, then O7 is Rank 6 (not 5).  The original
books aren't consistent about handling this, so there will be
differences from the old method.


[*] All Traveller "Old Hands" (that is, folks who have been around
long enough to regularly use Books 4, 5, 6, and 7 to generate
characters) should know this one in their sleep (and therefore
probably missed in when checking over the rules).  On the other
hand, just handing the character generation system to either a
literal-minded playtester, or to someone who had never played
Traveller before with instructions to generate a few dozen
characters would have uncovered this one.

> 2)  The Merchant Captain Alexander Jamison example uses the Navy ranks, 
> not the Merchant ranks.

Oops.  For what it's worth, the character appears as an example in
my (early edition) of Book 1.  He's a merchant captain; I don't
know how IG made that particular mistake.

> 3)  The book confusingly switches between "years" and "terms" in 
> discussing the character generation process.  Perhaps this isn't an 
> error, but simply a lack of understanding on my part. It's my first time 
> through it, after all. 

Read carefully, and remember that a term should be 4 years.

Probably another indication of sloppy editing.  *sigh*


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:17:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More on T4

Welp, I'm back from my second day at Gen-Con now, and I've some more 
thoughts on Traveller.  

1)  To reiterate, yup, there are errors galore.  Lots of typos (ie, "you 
can use your Compute skill to..." rather than "computeR skill," etc.).  
Problems with the mustering out rules.  Probably other stuff that I 
haven't found yet.  

2)  I talked to Matt Machtan about the errors in T4, and he said that 
part of the problem was that they had the book done the week it was 
supposed to go to the printer, then Marc Miller asked to see it 
(reasonable, since his name is on it[G]).  They showed it to him, and he 
told them to make some changes.  After making those changes, there really 
wasn't time to do a whole lot of double-checking.  This would be the 
source of errors like the mustering out system that makes no sense.
	I also asked Ken Whitman about the errors, and he added only that 
it did have a lot of errors, and that he (of course) wished that wasn't 
the case.  I asked whether there would be a 2nd Edition T4, and he said 
there would be, but not for 2 years or so.

3)  I played Starship Battles again today, and once again our team was 
beaten. :(  On the other hand, had we lasted 'till the end of the last 
turn, we would have won.  So, we came close... :)
	I spoke to a few of the participants afterword, and they all 
said, "If that was the simplified space combat, I'd hate to see the 
original."  So, perhaps there may be a need for a RSSC system after all.  
Then again, Starship Battles /is/ in Alpha Testing, so perhaps the final 
product will be easier.
	The greatest difficulty of the game system is the number of 
factors in the computations necessary for attacks and sensor scans.  If 
you could get rid of that, the play would be fast and furious, which is 
what some (like me) enjoy most.  But getting rid of those things will 
also take away part of the flavor. 
	It'd be quite a trick to simplify it more without ruining it.  As 
it stands, the only offensive weapons are lasers and missiles, while the 
only active defenses are (again) lasers and sandcasters.  No screens, 
etc.  Ships have armor, though, and structure points.  
	It's a good game, and my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed playing 
it.  I look forward to the released version when it comes out next year.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:38:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> This is the same problem that folks had when using Books 4, 5, 6,
> and 7 to generate characters (and also an indication of poor
> editing and playtesting [*]).
> 
> There are two solutions: the rank descriptions _should_ have a
> number in parentheses following the title.  This number is the
> Traveller Rank equivalent (to be used for generating mustering-out
> benefits).  This number is probably otherwise-unexplained in the
> rules.

Sure, you can do that...but the game doesn't have the parenthetical, 
equivalent rankings listed.  :(  They goofed.

> Failing that, use the following rule of thumb:
> 
> Rank	Traveller Rank
> E1-E9	0
> O1-O2	1
> O3	2
> O4	3
> O5	4
> O6-O7	5
> O8-O10	6
> 
> This is valid for most services, with a few exceptions.  If the
> service only goes to O7, then O7 is Rank 6 (not 5).  The original
> books aren't consistent about handling this, so there will be
> differences from the old method.

Yep, there will be differences.  But, the services do only go to O7 or 
O10, which makes it easy for those of us who have CT.  For new players, 
though, 'twill be a serius problem.

> [*] All Traveller "Old Hands" (that is, folks who have been around
> long enough to regularly use Books 4, 5, 6, and 7 to generate
> characters) should know this one in their sleep (and therefore
> probably missed in when checking over the rules).  On the other
> hand, just handing the character generation system to either a
> literal-minded playtester, or to someone who had never played
> Traveller before with instructions to generate a few dozen
> characters would have uncovered this one.

Right.


> > 2)  The Merchant Captain Alexander Jamison example uses the Navy ranks, 
> > not the Merchant ranks.
> 
> Oops.  For what it's worth, the character appears as an example in
> my (early edition) of Book 1.  He's a merchant captain; I don't
> know how IG made that particular mistake.

Yeah, he's the canonical example character.  And he is explicitly stated 
as being a Merchant throughout the example, but when they mention him 
receiving promotions, the ranks mentioned are not to be found on the 
Merchant "Table of Ranks," but on the Naval table.  


> > 3)  The book confusingly switches between "years" and "terms" in 
> > discussing the character generation process.  Perhaps this isn't an 
> > error, but simply a lack of understanding on my part. It's my first time 
> > through it, after all. 
> 
> Read carefully, and remember that a term should be 4 years.
> 
> Probably another indication of sloppy editing.  *sigh*

Yup, terms are still four years no matter what the career.  But, on my 
first read-through they seemed to be saying "years" when they meant 
"terms," but I could be mis-reading it.  Here's an example:

"During each year of his service in a career, a character becomes 
eligible for one skill.  Upon receiving a commission, he becomes eligible 
for an additional skill.  Upon being promoted, the character also becomes 
eligible for an additional skill.  Thus, a character who joins the Navy, 
receives a commission, and then receives a promotion during the initial 
term of service becomes eligible for six skills (one for each of four 
years, one for commission, and one for promotion).  The same character, 
in the next term, is eligible for four skill [sic] (one for each year) if 
he does not receive another promotion."

All this discussion of years occurs even though the character generation 
system operates on a four-year (term) basis otherwise.  That is, each 
year is not resolved individually.  The term of four years is all 
resolved at one time, a la CT's basic character generation.  

Does it confuse me?  No.  But new players will probably be confused, and 
some will roll four times per term rather than once when it comes to 
promo, commission, injury, and continuance.  It seems to me they could 
have made it simpler by sticking to "term," as in: "You get four skills 
per term, plus one for receiving a commission and one for receiving a 
promotion."  

But, I'm quibbling here.  It's not a serious error, like the mustering 
out one.

=================
Now that I've said that, I want to mention that I've done some thinking 
about the errors in the book, and I've decided none of the ones I've 
found so far bother me for myself.  That is, I only worry about them 
because I think they may decrease the chances of T4 becoming a smash hit.

But for myself, I'll throw my lot in with IG and FFE on T4, and I'll be 
using this system for the forseeable future.  Ignoring the errors, I can 
only quibble with some of the changes (the half dice, for instance) and I 
applaud others.  I have found nothing in T4 which makes me shudder. :)  
Take away the errors, and it is a solid system, and a worthy successor to 
the Traveller line.  It is what they promised:  A return to CT, with 
changes appropriate to the 20 year interval since it was introduced.

This basic book is just that: the basic book.  It is simplified and 
streamlined (ie, the return to CT) so that new players can more easily 
learn the system.  Marc Miller, in his seminar, discussed the trend in 
RPGs toward increasing complexity.  He mentioned that newbies faced with 
AD&D 2nd Edition are in for a long, difficult journey to understanding 
the game.  He doesn't want Traveller to be that way...at least, not in 
the basic book.  He /does/ want complexity and details in the add-on 
books, but those are optional accessories not necessary to playing the 
game.  TMLers will enjoy the Aliens book(s), the detailed combat, ship 
combat, ship design, world/system creation, and other books.  But the 
core system should be simple.  And it is.  I think IG and Marc have done 
the right thing for Traveller.  

I just wish it'd been error-free.  Oh, well.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 11 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 320

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)
         2. Re: On bunks, lowberths and cabins..(long)
         3. I'm selling some Digest Group MT books
         4. Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...
         5. Re: Low Berths
         6. Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...
         7. Word Generation and Starship Game

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 96 00:44:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller Ranks (Td V96 #317)

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
> Yep, there will be differences.  But, the services do only go to O7 or 
> O10, which makes it easy for those of us who have CT.  For new players, 
> though, 'twill be a serius problem.

Until (unless?) we get official word from IG, I'd suggest
presenting the table and rule I gave as the "fix" for the error,
though.  The differences are minor (and of the "Big Three" -
Mercenary, High Guard, and Scouts - the only one that differs from
the rule and table I gave is Mercenary).

> But, on my first read-through they seemed to be saying "years" when they
> meant "terms," but I could be mis-reading it.  Here's an example:
[example deleted to save bandwidth]

It sounds like a slightly strange hybrid of "basic" (Book 1) and
"advanced" (Book 4, 5, 6, and 7) character generation.  The rules
should play fine as written, although characters will accumulate a
_lot_ more total skill leves than they used to, even under the CT
"advanced" system.

With the T4 system, characters will recieve 4 (plus a fraction)
skills per term, on average.  Under the CT "advanced" system, it
seemed to average out to about 2 per term, and the "basic" system
generated 1 and a fraction per term.

I think it's only confusing because you're used to CT.

> Does it confuse me?  No.  But new players will probably be confused,

I don't think so ... but I agree that your alternate wording is
more clear.  This is another case where a few more weeks of
editing and testing would have helped.

That, and Traveller still reads like it was written by wargame
designers.  ;-)

> I've decided none of the ones I've found so far bother me for myself. 
> That is, I only worry about them  because I think they may decrease
> the chances of T4 becoming a smash hit.

I don't think any of these are _serious_, but it bugs me that most
of them are avoidable, and that some (like the whole mustering-out
thing) are just plain thoughless.  Then again, my own error in
QSDS is of the same variety.

> I just wish it'd been error-free.  Oh, well.

That's a little much to ask for.  I'd have settled for a book with
no serious errors (the mustering-out problem is what I'd call
"serious"; I assume that, left to their own devices, people will
just apply their rank numbers as DMs, so that O10's get +10?).

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: Paul Kestner <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 00:55:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths and cabins..(long)

>
>Quoted from: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>
>Given that in FF&S and I'd imagine in SSDS and QSDS that both a low berth 
>and a bunk both displace 14 cubic meters and that at small stateroom and 
>an emergency lowberth for 4 displace 28 cubic meters.  Would it not be 
>advantageous to the longterm survival of the crew in emergency situations 
>to replace standard small cabins with two low berths, bunks with a single 
>low berth and large cabins with four low berths?
>
>Surely a low berth, capable of sustaining human life in suspended 
>animation for years could be left open and used as a bunk, if you assume 
>that the wires and hoses can be retracted into containers on the side and 
>the clear lid could be rolled back into the wall, why couldn't you use it 
>as a bunk, sure it'd be like sleeping in a coffin, but given the 
>alternative of ending up in a coffin or sleeping in one, I'd rather take 
>the nap...

Well... Uhmmm... no and yes.
   The volume displacement of a small stateroom includes the individuals
share of the mess hall, sanitation plumbing, computer terminal /
communication or entertainment console, air vents and air fans, clothing and
personal items storage, and elbow room to play 'traveller' while off-duty.
(life support is covered under it's own vol. requirements, so need not be
mentioned.)   All 28 cubic meters are not at the stateroom, but parcelled
out all over the living area of the ship, dispite how we draw our deck plans.

   A low berth is not just the two and a half meter long coffin with a
retractable hood, on a half meter tall bench.    It includes that wall full
of medical moniting equipment, several two meter tall large bottles of
various fluids and stuff to pump the victim full of, and pumps to do the
pumping, dedicated simplified computer to run it, and small emergency
back-up power supply.   In short a mini life support system.   Clearly this
will not fit under the bed in even the large stateroom.

   Of course there is no reason that the two systems cannot be designed to
intermingle.   The total volume displacement will be less than stateroom
plus low berth (28 + 14) due to more efficient usage of the 'wasted' spaces,
( the space under the bed, the underfloor and overhead ceiling areas, that
lowest sock drawer that 'nobody' ever uses, )

   I would suggest 1/2 the volume of a low berth added to the stateroom, and
double or triple the cost of the low berth added to the stateroom. (very
exspensive this custom installation).   Limit of one low berth added per
stateroom.   Stateroom cannot be entered while in emergency low berth mode
(cryogenic gases fill the room).    To restore the stateroom to normal use
requires flushing the rooms normal life support system with one week worth
of supplies (Cr2000).   Low berth supply usage is the normal Cr100 per use.

   DM's remember to check for what that room full of cryogenic gases do to
any personal gear left in the room.   For that matter, what anything left in
the room does to the cryogenic gases.  (Honest, Captian, I had no idea those
dirty socks would turn super acidic and eat thru the ship's hull !)

   In my game, to get 'AAA' insurance rating, (required for high passenger
service in Imperial space), there must be room in the low berths for all the
crew and passengers, plus a conversion kit to make a emergency 'Bussard
hydrogen Ram'/Ion drive engine out of whatever is left of the engeneering
section and the dismantaled jump grid.   This allows surviviors to make a
STL transit in event of a mis-jump.  Non of my player designed ship's bother
with this stuff dispite the safety advantages.   (Humm... maybe if I drop
the cost of a Mid passage ticket to Cr5000...)

I have spewed long enough....  and it is passed my bedtime....
I am off to go conserve some gravity....

....
Paul Kestner  a.k.a.  pjwk@erols.com
parting remark: "The Devil hides in the details."
....


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I'm selling some Digest Group MT books

Hi folks-

I have two Digest Group Mega-Traveller supplements to sell:

The World Builder's Handbook

Aliens Vol. 2: Solomani & Aslan

Both are in excellent condition, I am accepting bids for them. The minimum
bid for each is $ 15.00 US.  Also if anyone wants to offer $55 (+
Shipping) for the two of them they can buy them out-right. 

The price must be paid in US funds (check or money order) you pay Shipping
($3.00) The day after I receive the money I'll send the books or book out
in a Priority Mail envelope. After I let you know you have the item(s) you
have two weeks to send me the money or I ask the next lowest bidder if
they are still interested. 

I'll update everyone bidding on a daily basis.

- -Thanks

John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
2632 S.E. Morrison St.
Portland OR, 97214-3018  





------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:56:15 -0700
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

Joe Walsh wrote:

> Yeah, yeah.  You're just jealous that I have T4 and you don't. :P

Ohhhhhhhh, Ahhhhhhhh...

Tell us oh great and powerful guru on the mountian, what is your honest 
opinion of T4?  Is it a rehash of TNE, a Rehash of CT or something 
completely different?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Low Berths

>The low berth cant take up 14m^3 of space because a 4 man low berth can
>be cramed into 28m^3.  Obviously a 2 man low berth could be crammed into
>far less that 28m^3 and if you organized your low berths like bunk beds
>lets face it no one, not even me at 68, needs a bed thats 4 meters
>(13.5 feet) long, although it would be nice...

	The 4-man low berth is an emergency low berth which, at least in 
CT, gave one a negative mod on the survival role.  This seems to have 
been omitted in TNE, but without it, as you point out, there is little 
reason not to use emergency berths for everything.  The one man low 
berth, at 14m^3 is the regular low berth.  As you correctly point out, it 
is far too big to be a bed.  That is because it is not just a bed, it 
includes access passageway and all the machinery that freezes people and 
keeps them alive in that peculiar state.

>Waste disposal and such is covered under life support so I dont see that
>as a problem, plus Im willing to budget extra space for that if enough
>people feel that its a problem.

	The machinery that processes the waste is covered under life 
support but the actual _restroom_ is not.  The real problem is that the 
so-called extra space in a stateroom includes facilities so that when 
someone is off duty they have room to do more than just lie down in the 
bunk they share with four other people.

>Even during normal ship construction theres really no rules for
>budgeting ships common space, it just sort of appears as we see fit when
>were putting down the deck plans.  I know Ive never designed a ship
>thinking, well Ive got to bugets 20m^3 so theres a dining room on this
>ship, heck  no 20m^3 is always cargo/fuel/electronics or weapons.

	It is true that there are no hard and fast rules for how to 
allocate space for common areas.  For the sake of realism it makes sense 
that some such spaces exist and their volume has to come from someplace.  
The assumption that seems common to the old hands on the TML is that it 
is best to take this space from quarters.  After all, this makes more 
sense than taking it from the jump drive, right?  This means that the 
bunk itself is not 1 ton.  As you pointed out, this makes for a very 
large bed.  Instead, as I noted earlier, it includes that bunks share of 
passageway, head, personal storage, rec room, etc.  Check out the 
Traveller page at the missouri site.  I believe there are some deckplans 
there and you can see how other people have worked it out.

>Even if you assume that the bunks take up all 28m^3 for a four man
>lowberth, thats technically 2 men more than you could fit into a single
>small stateroom of equal size, if you budget an extra 14m^3 for a head
>that still leaves you with an extra 14m^3 to get back to where you would
>have been in the first place with 2 smalls staterooms.  

	First of all, the bunks do not take up all 28m^3, the machinery 
etc, takes up quite a bit.  Secondly, more people can fit into an 
emergency low berth because they are _frozen_.  They are not getting up 
to use the loo, they are not eating meals, they are not using rec 
facilities, they do not need to stretch their legs -- they are just 
_lying there_.

>Im sure that the crew on a sub sleeps more than 4 men per 28m^3.

	That may be true, but Traveller ships are based more on surface 
ships than on subs.  There are discussions on the beta list of including 
rules for more sub-like accomodations in future rules expansions, but 
until then we either have to use official rules as they stand, or our own 
variants.

>Using the above example if you had a crew of 16, I like easy math for
>examples, thatd mean youd need 4, 4 man low berths for sleeping areas
>youd could probably get away with cutting the number of heads in half,
>Im assuming this is a military boat not a passanger ship, thus youve
>already displaced (28x4)+(2x14) or 140m^3, if you were to budget the room
>for small staterooms for all of this youd have (28x8) or 224m^3 budgeted
>thus leaving yourself with (224-140) or 84m^3 for common areas.  Thats 6
>displacement tons or six hexes on your deckplans or an area 6mx4m
>(19.8 feet x 13.2 feet).  Space for common area that you would never have
>had in the first place.

	Why would you not have this common area in the first place?  
Roughly 10m^3 of common areas for each small stateroom seems not an 
unreasonable number.  Remember, the whole 28m^3 is not all inside the 
stateroom, that is just the amount allocated for the stateroom and 
everything that goes with it.

>Im hoping that this explains my theory a little more clearly than I did
>last night.

	<Sarcasm On> Have you thought of sleeping someone in the 
autodoc?  How about across the back seat of the air raft? <Sarcasm Off>
	Seriously, I get to feeling cooped up in my place in a lot less 
time than a week in jump space, and its plenty bigger than half a small 
stateroom.  Reducing that down to four people in 28m^3 sounds like it 
might work for a very specialized design with a special crew, but as SOP, 
it sounds like a prescription for claustrophobia and social conflict.

Happy Travelling,



------------------------------

From: Svend Andersen <svend.andersen@vuw.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:42:43 +-1200
Subject: Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB87BC.8AAB3CA0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse) wrote:

> It just gives us lurkers a chance to show ourselves ;-) It's times like
> this that being stuck on the other side of the world is nor so great.

  Ah, but we get to talk about summer when they're dealing with
snowdrifts... >;)

> BTW is there anyone else on TML from down under?

<waves hand> :)

  Bringing it back to Traveller - presumably we're in a similar position
to anyone not on the "Main World" - we can communicate without the
week-long intersystem lag, but actual physical transportation is a right
royal pain. :)

  So if you think waiting for the new version of Traveller is bad *now*,
just imagine having to have it shipped to, say, Mars (assuming we go
play with the microbes... :).

  Now, are organisms such as microbes able to set up forms of
government? Like, say, I don't know, feudal technocracies...
<flees in terror> ;)

Svend Andersen     I've got an inferiority complex, but it's not
svend.andersen@vuw.ac.nz  http://vuw.ac.nz/~svend   very good...

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------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:45:38 +0900
Subject: Word Generation and Starship Game

>From Rob Prior:

>>I ran through every Terran language I had access to, by the simple 
expedient of entering the first word on each page of my translation 
dictionary.

Thanks for responding.

I don't understand how you could get enough data for the Traveller charts by 
just using one word.  That's very interesting.  If I understand the 
Traveller tables correctly, you need to know which sounds and combinations 
are used as units (phonemes), the frequency of each phoneme by position in 
the syllable, the ratio of the occurance of syllable types, and any 
phonotactic exceptions like "CV cannot occur at the end of a word" or 
whatever.  This is the info I see reflected in the standard Traveller 
charts.  Are we talking about the same thing?

>>Another option is to write (or obtain) a program that creates a 
probability matrix for the next letter (including a space as a letter) based 
on the preceeding 2-5 letters.  In English, if you do this with a 
five-letter pattern you can tel the difference between fake Shakespear and 
fake Dickens.

Very interesting; where do I get that kind of program?  That type of program 
needs no data except single words?

I'd love to have (Win95) programs to do these things (pretty please MIME), 
but I'm especially interested in where the actual inspiration for the 
Traveller word generation chart came from (a book reference).  I've 
researched this in (small) university libraries, and found data for letter 
or phoneme frequencies in English, but never according to the CV, CVC, VC, V 
pattern (to include different data for initial, mid, and final position in 
the syllable), and minus the ratio info.  It would take a lot of guesswork 
to make a Traveller-type chart from what I found.  The necessary data isn't 
there.  I'm assuming that the person (Mr. Harshman?) who invented the chart 
for Traveller had a real-world source to base his first charts on.  He wrote 
the article as if he did (I got that impression at least).

>From Joe Walsh:

>>I spoke to a few of the participants afterword, and they all said, "If 
that was the simplified space combat, I'd hate to see the original."  So, 
perhaps there may be a need for a RSSC system after all.  Then again, 
Starship Battles /is/ in Alpha Testing, so perhaps the final product will be 
easier.
	
I tried playing Battle Rider (which is simpler to play than Brilliant Lances 
I think) and my players (who are not wargamers) got annoyed with the 
super-detailed slow pace (same thing - repetitive sensor tasks and so on) 
and gave up.  My humble suggestion is to keep all the magnificent details 
but for a computer-based version of the starship combat simulation game (a 
Striker version would be great too!!).  I'd love to see that!  It would be 
great for PBEM too!  Please, IG, please!!!

Armand


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #320
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 14 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 321

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re LowBerths instead of Cabins
         2. Re: T4 Errors (Was: Traveller Ranks)
         3. Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...
         4. TNE Boxed Set Offered to Good Home
         5. Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)
         6. Re: Low Berths
         7. Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)
         8. T4 Ground Combat
         9. RE: T4: EDU and Grad school
        10. What's up?
        11. Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply
        12. Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)
        13. RE: T4: EDU and Grad school
        14. T4: Task system
        15. Still Here?
        16. T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        17. T4: Task system
        18. Switching Rules
        19. Re: T4: Task system?
        20. Re: T4: Task system?
        21. It's very quiet...
        22. T4: Task system
        23. Re: T4: Task system
        24. Re: Switching Rules
        25. Re: T4: Task system
        26. FF&S weapons (LONG)
        27. FAQs ?
        28. RE: T4: EDU and Grad school
        29. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        30. Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...
        31. Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply 
        32. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        33. T4 Review: Retraction!
        34. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        35. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)
        36. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        37. Re: T4: Task system
        38. Re: T4: Task system
        39. T4: EDU and Grad school
        40. Re: T4: Task system
        41. T4: Task system?
        42. Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...
        43. Re: T4: Task system 
        44. T4: EDU and Grad school
        45. Re: T4: Task system? 
        46. Re: T4: Task system
        47. Re: Software Announcement
        48. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        49. Re: T4: Task system
        50. Re: T4: EDU and Grad school
        51. Re: T4: Task system
        52. GM Screen and Character Sheet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:56:32 -0800
Subject: Re LowBerths instead of Cabins

The following is all IMNSHO as a CT/MT/TNE and soon to be T4 GM:

Replacing Quartering with low berths is fine for survivability, but I'd
never let someone use them in place of a normal set of quarters for more
than a week or two... Also, I figure that the volume listed is 3m^3 of open
space, and 10-11m^3 of machinery...

Sooo... on a scout Type S/S2 where crewing is not that high (1-3, with 4
LSR), I'd definitely allow switching one out for an EmLB; That gives a
maximum passenger capacity of 6 in any comfort, and 4 in the tanks. So, for
a short period, they could do it... but it would also strain the patience
of everyone aboard, as well as the ability to rest comfortably for the 4
poor SOB's in the tanks.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:09:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Errors (Was: Traveller Ranks)

On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Until (unless?) we get official word from IG, I'd suggest
> presenting the table and rule I gave as the "fix" for the error,
> though.  The differences are minor (and of the "Big Three" -
> Mercenary, High Guard, and Scouts - the only one that differs from
> the rule and table I gave is Mercenary).
> 

I'm going to mark up my softcover T4 with the corrections.  I'll add the 
parenthetical ranks (copied from High Guard and Merchant Prince), and 
adjust the other errors which I will go into below.

> It sounds like a slightly strange hybrid of "basic" (Book 1) and
> "advanced" (Book 4, 5, 6, and 7) character generation.  The rules
> should play fine as written, although characters will accumulate a
> _lot_ more total skill leves than they used to, even under the CT
> "advanced" system.
> 
> With the T4 system, characters will recieve 4 (plus a fraction)
> skills per term, on average.  Under the CT "advanced" system, it
> seemed to average out to about 2 per term, and the "basic" system
> generated 1 and a fraction per term.

That's an apt summary, but you get even more skills than that!  I 
neglected to mention the skills your character gets before entering any 
service or college, which amount to a maximum of 7 and a minimum of 4 
(depending on the tech level of the home planet).  Also, at age 18 but 
before entering any service, you can attend one or more of EIGHT 
colleges!  Not all are available to an age 18 character, though (ie, you 
can't go from high school to Graduate College, nor can you immediately 
enroll in Commando School, Flight School, or Medical School).  

These changes (the initials skills and the collection of pre-service 
schools) are excellent, IMO, by the way.


> I think it's only confusing because you're used to CT.

I think you are right.


> > I just wish it'd been error-free.  Oh, well.
> 
> That's a little much to ask for.  I'd have settled for a book with
> no serious errors (the mustering-out problem is what I'd call
> "serious"; I assume that, left to their own devices, people will
> just apply their rank numbers as DMs, so that O10's get +10?).

Hmmm.  I think they'll just apply the rank numbers as the number of 
additional rolls on the mustering out tables.  It says that if you are 
rank 1-2, you get one roll, 3-4, two rolls, and 5-6, three rolls.  Some 
may add +1 for each rank beyond 6, but I think others may extrapolate 7-8 
to be four rolls and 9-10 to be five rolls.  No big deal in the long run, 
but wrong nevertheless.

Here's another serious error I found.  In the Skills chapter, it talks 
about Level-0 skill usage.  Only certain skills can be used at Level-0 
(ie, an unskilled person can't disarm a nuclear warhead, but an unskilled 
person could attempt to ride a horse).  The "certain skills" are supposed 
to be designated by italics in the skills listing and in the skill 
descriptions.  In fact, NO skills are in italics in the table nor the 
descriptions.  So there is no way to know for sure which skills are 
eligible for Level-0 usage.

A non-serious error I found is that in the character generation tables, 
skill clusters are listed in bold only in the colleges, not in the 
services.  That is, when generating your character in the colleges, if 
you roll a skill of "Bureaucracy," you know immediately that you have to 
look up the Bureaucracy skill cluster and pick one of the sub-skills.  In 
the services, you could roll "Bureaucracy," and since it isn't in bold 
you may simply write that down as your skill.

Obviously, when you go to use that skill, you'll look it up and find that 
you have to select a sub-skill.  Plus, eventually people will know which 
are skills, cascades, and clusters.  So, as I said, it's not a serious 
error, but it could goof people up for a while.

One change that I don't like:  The ships look different now.  A Mercenary 
Cruiser looks reminiscent of the CT/MT/TNE Merc Cruiser, but it isn't the 
same.  The Scout looks totally different.  The Pinnace looks quite 
different as well.
I'll miss the continuity and feel of the old ships.  They said 
"Traveller" to me.  But, eventually I'll get used to it, I guess.  It's 
no big deal, but for those of us who are long-time Traveller fans, it'll 
probably be bothersome for a while.  It'll take me a while to see the new 
ships in my mind during an adventure.  I'm so used to the old mental 
picture of those ships...



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:30:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: On bunks, lowberths an cabins...

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> Tell us oh great and powerful guru on the mountian, what is your honest 
> opinion of T4?  Is it a rehash of TNE, a Rehash of CT or something 
> completely different?

Well, since you've learned proper respect, I'll bequeath you with my 
wisdom [G]:

It is CT, updated based on 20 years of role-playing experience.  That is, 
it is exactly what they said it would be.

Take the Traveller Book, add a section on tasks, change the rolls to X- 
instead of X+, add a few new character types (Entertainer, Agent, etc.), 
make it four skills per term instead of one, graft on the QSDS ship 
system, and consolidate/update the skills list and you'll have a good 
approximation of T4.  You can even keep the Exit Visa adventure in there, 
as T4 includes that as well as a totally new adventure, "Rubicon Cross."

Some sections of T4 are word-for-word from The Traveller Book.  Others 
are modified to some degree. Still others are completely new (though 
these are few and far between).

T4, if it wasn't for the errors, would be the CT/MT enthisiast's perfect 
system.  TNE afficianados, I think, may have to think first before buying 
T4.  It has the TNE starships (sorta...we're all familiar with the 
changes in that system by now), but other than that it is totally CT and 
T4 (ie, new stuff).  

I'm tentatively predicting that the lists will split to become TML 
(CT/MT/T4) and XBoat (TNE).  While there will undoubtedly be CT/MT 
purists who will not buy T4, the systems are close enough that we should 
be able to get along, share characters, adventures, equipment, etc.  All 
we'll share with TNE is the ship design system.  Of course, the X- 
rolling system is totaly new, so that will have to be changed regardless 
of the other system under discussion (CT/MT/TNE) when it comes to coming 
up with task-roll-related rules and such that we might wish to share.

I do encourage everyone to at least read some sections of T4 in the store 
before making a decision.  Other than the errors, it is a system worthy 
of play.  It will come down to individual tastes.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:37:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: TNE Boxed Set Offered to Good Home

If you'd like a copy of the TNE boxed set (TNE book and FF&S), which has 
been read only once and has all components (including dice, charts, 
etc.) intact, please let me know.  I want it to go to a good home - to 
someone who will use it and take care of it (ie, no resellers need 
apply).

First one to ask for it gets it.  The set is free, but shipping may or 
may not be free (depending on how much it costs to ship it).
 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:20:31 -0800
Subject: Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)

On 10 Aug 96 at 22:46, Paul Kestner spewed:

> At 02:48 8/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Actually, you could probably make a case of him being already 
> >infected with Virus
> >
> >Stu ducks for cover...
> >
> 
>    Stu, I'm wondering what sort of cover do you think will protect you from
> relativistic rocks???

Stu goes looking for that artifact he plundered from an Ancient 
site...  An Anti-Relativistic Rock Suit...  ;-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:01:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Low Berths

John Macpherson wrote:

>     The 4-man low berth is an emergency low berth which, at least in
>CT, gave one a negative mod on the survival role.  This seems to have
>been omitted in TNE, but without it, as you point out, there is little
>reason not to use emergency berths for everything.

The point I was attempting to make, maybe it's later on, is that 
obviously multiple lowberths are capable of sharing machinery, granted if 
the machines malfunction during operation two people die not 1 but that's 
a pretty minor risk if you're stranded in deepspace.

>         First of all, the bunks do not take up all 28m^3, the machinery
> etc, takes up quite a bit.  Secondly, more people can fit into an
> emergency low berth because they are _frozen_.  They are not getting up
> to use the loo, they are not eating meals, they are not using rec
> facilities, they do not need to stretch their legs -- they are just
> _lying there_.

In essence is this not what the quarters on all starships, except perhaps 
those owned by the UFP are for?  Look at the quarters on a Carrier, 
Missle Escort etc.  There's not enough room to play cards in there, this 
is why I was budgeting common space, space that could be a weight room, a 
 theatre, etc.  A multipurpose room for entertaining the men.
 
>      That may be true, but Traveller ships are based more on surface
>ships than on subs.  There are discussions on the beta list of including
>rules for more sub-like accomodations in future rules expansions, but
>until then we either have to use official rules as they stand, or our 
>own variants.

This is personal opinion of course but subs are a far better model for 
starships than surface ships are, when you get tired of someone on a 
surface ship you simply walk out that door and on to the deck and you 
don't have to look at them again for a few hours.  On a sub when you're 
sick of your roomie's face you've got to deal with it, there's no where 
to go.  Everything in a sub has to be contained within a pressurized 
hull for maintenance purposes, on a surface ship you just keep bolting 
things onto the upper surface as technology advances.
 
>       Why would you not have this common area in the first place?
>Roughly 10m^3 of common areas for each small stateroom seems not an
>unreasonable number.  Remember, the whole 28m^3 is not all inside the
>stateroom, that is just the amount allocated for the stateroom and
>everything that goes with it.

To give people leg room, a place to sit down play cards and not interfere 
with their roomie who may be sleeping at the time.
 
>    <Sarcasm On> Have you thought of sleeping someone in the autodoc?  
>How about across the back seat of the air raft? <Sarcasm Off>

Lets see we've all slept in a hospital bed at one time and I know I've 
slept in the front and back seats of a car on more than one occasion, 
it's not comfortable but you can do it.  Wouldn't want to do it for a 
week.

>       Seriously, I get to feeling cooped up in my place in a lot less
>time than a week in jump space, and its plenty bigger than half a small
>stateroom.  Reducing that down to four people in 28m^3 sounds like it
>might work for a very specialized design with a special crew, but as 
>SOP, it sounds like a prescription for claustrophobia and social 
>conflict.

Actually I don't recall suggesting 4 people per 28m^3 I suggested 2 
people per 28m^3 and only on exploration or military ships, I wouldn't 
want to pay money to sleep in a closet.  How do you think they feel on 
the Space Shuttle, Mir Space Station or on the old Apollo missions?  An 
Apollo mission was what rougly a week out and a week back with three men 
cramed into something the size of a 68 VW bus, with no beds, private 
toilets or space for themselves.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:14:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)

On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 10 Aug 96 at 22:46, Paul Kestner spewed:
> 
> > At 02:48 8/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Actually, you could probably make a case of him being already 
> > >infected with Virus
> > >
> > >Stu ducks for cover...
> > >
> > 
> >    Stu, I'm wondering what sort of cover do you think will protect you from
> > relativistic rocks???
> 
> Stu goes looking for that artifact he plundered from an Ancient 
> site...  An Anti-Relativistic Rock Suit...  ;-)

There's no need for that, Stu.  The Combat section in T4 specifically 
deals with rocks, and you're in no danger.  Here's what it says:

"The topic of raged attacks covers everything from thrown rocks to 
artillery fire." . . . "Daggers, blades, bayonets, pole weapons, and even 
rocks can be thrown at a target at up to Short range." 

So, no more dropping rocks from space!  They'll only fall a few meters, 
then "softly and silently vanish away." :)

Ooop.  This is GROUND combat.  I'll have to look up rocks under Space 
combat. :)  Maybe that Anti-Relativistic-Rock suit isn't a bad idea. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:36:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Ground Combat

The combat section looks good.  8 pages of text, one page of tables, and 
it covers just about everything you'd want it to (in a basic book), from 
hand-to-hand to artillery, tanks, robots, and other forms of ground combat.
It is possible to cover all of this (in a basic way) in 8 short pages 
because of the robust task system.  I'm impressed.

Quick Summary:

You can still tell Traveller has its roots in wargaming.  :)  The 
original rules shine through in this section, and their flavor is 
retained.  However, the consolidating effects of having a task system has 
vastly simplified the combat rules over what appeared in CT.  Once you 
memorize the task system, combat will go very quickly.


Errors:

The only error I found in the section is in the section discussing 
explosives.  They don't mention whether a grenade is thrown at a target 
HEX or a target INDIVIDUAL.  Since the system uses range bands, I guess I 
can see why they didn't mention it.  But, it'll be hard for inexperienced 
players to resolve hand grenade attacks.  They can figure damage, but not 
to-hit.  Most will probably be able to puzzle it out though.


Cool Stuff:

1)  Multiple actions:  A character can now make a number of actions each 
round up to his or her related characteristic score, but at a penalty.  A 
person with Strength 8 can make 8 Brawling attacks per round, for 
instance, but each attack will have relatively little chance of 
succeeding (unless the character is very highly skilled).  

2)  Called Shots:  You can do a called shot for increased damage (two 
kinds), decrease damage (two kinds), or to disarm.

3)  "Holding" your actions is covered well.

4)  Special rules.:  In addition to the Tactics Pool and Endurance rules 
that are familiar to most of us, there are also Strength and Dexterity 
Pools.  Strength pools allow one to increase the damage done by 
non-ranged attacks.  Dexterity pools allow one to avoid being hit by 
non-ranged attacks (no dodging bullets, darn it![G]).

5)  Initiative:  Initiative is done more logically (I got a taste of this 
in the Starship Battles game, and it works well) now.  The side that 
wins the initiative moves LAST but attacks FIRST.  That way, they can 
react to the other side's movement, then fire attack before the other 
side does.  This is more playable than realistic, but from experience, I 
know it does work well.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:20:07 -0700
Subject: RE: T4: EDU and Grad school

>>Folks, having a PhD *should* mean that you're pretty close to an expert in
>>ONE field (a few skills), but not EVERY skill that is based on EDU.  

This would be my thinking on it also.  I would agree that going to
University gets you some bonuses to your education but it would also
give specific skills.  A mixture of +1 Edu and skills would be a good
thing.

After I've seen the rules (whenever they finally make it to Europe) I
might post some more firm ideas for a rework of this, but for the time
being -

Instead of just getting +4 Edu (+1 additional for an honour) the player
should roll 1d6 on a table to determine what they get (so for completing
a four year degree they get four rolls, degree with honours gets them
five rolls).

1	+2 EDU
2	+1 EDU
3	+1 EDU
4	+1 EDU
5	1 relevant skill
6	1 relevant skill
7	1 relevant skill
8	2 relevant skill
9+	nothing

+1 DM for every academic qualification the character already has.

This would mean for the previously cited example of a character that
completed Grad School (is this an Americanism?) twice with honours and a
four year degree with honours would get 11 rolls on the table, with
differing modifiers, instead of a straight +11 EDU.

For the first trip through grad school three rolls with no DM.  (Say +2
EDU and 1 skill).
Second time through grad school, three rolls with +1 DM. (Say +2 EDU and
1 skill again).
Four year degree, five rolls with a +2 DM. (Say +2 EDU and 3 skills)

Total effect of academic qualifications on this character +6 EDU and 5
skills.
The two extremes for this character would be +14 EDU & 0 skills / +0 EDU
& 16 skills.  These are unlikely to happen but maybe I should lose the
two +2 entries.

Relevant skills would need to be adjudicated by the referee in
co-operation with the player.  For example the referee could ask the
player what sort of course they wish to enlist in and then agree to six
skills that would comprise this course.  These six skills would then
comprise a look up table to roll on when a skill pick comes up.

Also I would advocate increased difficulties to enlist in courses for
which the character had no relevant qualifications.

Eric.

------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 13 Aug 96 09:36:11 EDT
Subject: What's up?

	It's been a whole two (2) days and no traffic. You all got your books? 

	Or, is it some well crafted conspiracy......


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 03:10:02 PST
Subject: Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply

In mail you write:

>>Speaking of Heinlien, what did folks think of The Puppet Masters?  
>
>>Brilliant casting of one of my favorite actors (Donald Sutherland) but
>>otherwise a bit mediocre, they *did* (as far as my 10 or so year old
>>memory could detect) keep to the feel and style of the novel, however.
>
> I enjoyed it, but I liked the "flavor" of the book much better. The book took
> place in the future--they had flying cars, etc (one of the technologies I
> loved was the newspaper stand that printed the newspaper while Sam
> waited), but the movie seemed to take place in the present. I didn't
> particularly like the casting of whoever played Mary and Sam; I had never
> seen them before, and they certainly weren't what I pictured from the
> book. 

Which version of the book did you read? The original, or the revised
edition that came out a few years back? The "revisions consisted of
removing a bunch of ham-handed editing by the original publisher, and
restoring a few cuts. I personally like the "revised" version better.
The feel is a bit different (*better*) without the stupid changes, and
the added scenes are most definitely *exactly* what you'd expect to
happen give such a situation (the major one invovling what they use as
entertainment in the "occupied" areas.)

>>Were any other Heinlien novels made into movies?  Maybe we can get
>>Hollywood to take on "Stranger in a Strange Land"!  I'd really grok that!

Stranger in a Strange Land has been "optioned" almost continously ever
since it came out. So far nobody has been stupid enough to try carrying
thru after the studio execs screw it up, or else they haven't had the
cash to be able to do it right *in spite of* the studio execs.

> I'd *love* to see Double Star made into a movie!

It would require some rather extensive changes though. No way you could
keep the Martians, and making it involve interstellar travel throws in
some problems that while not obvious, would make for large plot holes.

So we'd have to "lose" the aliens, unless a director has the guts to do
it *with* the Martians, as a sort of "alternate history" (which might
go over well, but just *try* selling it to the studios)

Between things like "Dark Skies", and the improvements in computer
animation (pioneered on TV by Babylon 5) I expect that it won't be
*that* long before it's possible for a *small* company to start
producing decent SF movies from the "classics".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:25:06 PST
Subject: Re: AI Programs (rocky sub-thread)

In mail you write:

> At 02:48 8/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Actually, you could probably make a case of him being already 
>>infected with Virus
>>
>>Stu ducks for cover...
>>
>
>    Stu, I'm wondering what sort of cover do you think will protect you from
> relativistic rocks???

Easy, you dig a hole an pull it in after yourself.

Or, in less picturesque language, you jump out *before* the rock gets
there! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:36:33 +0000
Subject: RE: T4: EDU and Grad school

Last year (pre-IG) I was working on building a comprehensive set of 
education resources for MegaTraveller, basically an expansion of the 
higher-education sections in the char-gen rules.  I suppose that's 
what you do when you have plenty of spare time on your hands...

Anyway, One theme I explored was differentiating between students in 
the Sciences and students in the Liberal Arts.  Having observed 
modern day grad-student life, I ruled that Liberal Arts students 
tended to get more bonuses to edu and fewer specific skills, while 
students of the Sciences got more specific skills and fewer edu 
bonuses.  

This reflects the overall impression that I got that Liberal Arts 
students tended to be encouraged to explore and broaden knowledge on 
as wide a variety of subjects as possible, even when focusing quite 
specifically on a dissertation topic.  Those in the Sciences 
generally seemed to only get more specific with their studies as they 
progressed, getting less "worldly".  

It should be obvious at this point that I view edu as an 
all-encompassing rating of awareness, mostly having to do with 
general knowledge of the world around the character.  

After breaking up with my girlfriend in California, moving to 
England, and deciding that I might as well just wait for T4 to come 
out, I've recently dug all my work on the education systems out.  
I'll update the actual numbers after I get the books.  

Comments?

 
- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/

------------------------------

From: Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:07:18 -0500
Subject: T4: Task system

> If they wanted to go with handfuls of dice, why couldn't they have found a
> way to do the task thing something like:

Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of gaming systems that use
'handfulls' of dice?  Is this the current 'fad' in game design?

(Im guilty of it myself, I've ran many Star Wars campaigns.)

[snip]

> Sigh! If you want my cynical opinion somebody wants to sell special 6 sided
> dice with 2 each of 1, 2, & 3.  Or are we going to go back to painting our
> dice..let's see paint 1 & 2 red, leave 3 & 4 white, and paint 5 & 6
> blue..now red is 1, white is 2 and blue is 3.
> 
> Eris

I don't know if I should be cynical or disappointed.  I'm still working
on my thoughts about T4, but they can be summed up in 'excited, but
disappointed.'

- -- 
 _____
|* * *|	-Vanya              | dmoody@bridge.com  <-or-> 
vanya@partyline.net
|  ^  |	"Conquering Russia  | 
 \/ \/	 is a steppe by     | Meyers-Briggs personality type : INJT
  \ /	 steppe process"    |

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 13 Aug 96 10:40:34 MS
Subject: Still Here?

Have not gotten any posts from TML or XTML since Sunday afternoon.  Are the 
lists functioning, or did the "Big Power Outage" nuke the lists?  Maybe the 
system just unsubbed some of us again?  Inquiring minds want to know...

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com (work)
scharlto@RTD.com (home)

------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:30:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

I have made a T4 Character sheet in Excel 5.0 for PC/Mac. Would anybody 
be interested in it. I can post it to ftp.mpgn.com as soon as the ftp 
archive is on-line again.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 15:28:36 -0500
Subject: T4: Task system

On 08/13/96 at 11:00 AM,  Vanya <dmoody@qrc.com> said:

> IMHO, the MT task system is vastly superior, in that it is more
>consistent, easier to use, and I *don't* have to be reminded how
>many dice to roll.

Frankly, the task mechanic in TNE is superior to MT,IMO (can't say about T4
until I have it in my hands).  I've never been mistaken for a TNE fanatic,
but I always thought it's task system was
outstanding.  Every roll was against a single 1d20 and the task levels
could be pre-generated, ie.

                                  x4    x2    x1     /2    /4
Skill       Level+Attrib=Asset | Easy  Avg   Diff  Frmdbl Imps
==============================================================
Pilot         3      9    12   |  48    24    12     6      3
Astrogation   2      7     9   |  36    18     9     4      2
 
I made up character sheets like this with a place for each task difficulty
level already layed out.  When a character was created we filled in each
row.  From then on it was just a matter of:  a. calling out the difficulty,
b. rolling a 1d20, and c. comparing the result against the proper row and
column of character sheet.
 
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 16:54:19 -0400
Subject: Switching Rules

Vanya wrote:
>       It looks like I'll continue to play Traveller the way I have been, the
> MT task system and modified FF&s for equipment. (Although, I'll probably
> write up rules for using the MT task system in T4)

Joe Walsh replied:
>I'm sorry to hear you won't be joining with those of us who will be 
>moving on to the T4 system.  I'm sad that there will be yet anothr split 
>in the Traveller group, but I suppose it is unavoidable.  <sigh>

I think that is a bit overstated.  Personally I am sticking with the
TNE rules, I have every other set of Traveller rules, and so far I like
TNE best. I really like detailed rule sets.  I liked the 4th edition of
Champions alot more than the 3rd, because there were so many more
options. Its the same way with Traveller. I'm not slamming T4, heck I
haven't even seen it, my copy is still in the mail :(, I am just
reacting to reports on the net.  MM said they will release more
compicated versions of combat and character generation later on, maybe
I'll switch later on, but for now I'll use TNE.  
	This doesn't mean I won't read the TML, or talk to you guys,
most of the stuff I write up is on background anyway.  I wouldn't think
of it as a split among Traveller fans, more just as way to allow 
people to select the rule set that fits them best.  Vanya will use
modified MT, you'll use T4, and I'll use TNE, but we will all still be
playing Traveller, and we can still argue about dropping rocks on
Feudal Technocrats.

Lewis

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 22:12 BST-1
Subject: Re: T4: Task system?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960812153726.24284F-100000@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>

> The only thing I find annoying is that alot of players never call 
their 
> 1/2D6 before hand. So they always pick the high die for the 1/2D6. A 
> couple players in the GenCon T4 game I was in did that constantly.

So buy real d3s.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 22:12 BST-1
Subject: Re: T4: Task system?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960812153726.24284F-100000@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>

> The only thing I find annoying is that alot of players never call 
their 
> 1/2D6 before hand. So they always pick the high die for the 1/2D6. A 
> couple players in the GenCon T4 game I was in did that constantly.

So buy real d3s.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Craig Barnett" <cb@hunterlink.net.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:30:02 +1000
Subject: It's very quiet...

I haven't received the digest for a couple of days now...Is everything
working? I would have thought with Gencon and the T4 release the list would
be swarming.

- --
Craig Barnett
- -==(UDIC)==- Manik Dragon
cb@hunterlink.net.au


------------------------------

From: Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:29:49 -0500
Subject: T4: Task system

> On 08/13/96 at 11:00 AM,  Vanya <dmoody@qrc.com> said:
> 
> > IMHO, the MT task system is vastly superior, in that it is more
> >consistent, easier to use, and I *don't* have to be reminded how
> >many dice to roll.
> 
> Frankly, the task mechanic in TNE is superior to MT,IMO (can't say about T4
> until I have it in my hands).  I've never been mistaken for a TNE fanatic,
> but I always thought it's task system was
> outstanding.  Every roll was against a single 1d20 and the task levels
> could be pre-generated, ie.
> 
>                                   x4    x2    x1     /2    /4
> Skill       Level+Attrib=Asset | Easy  Avg   Diff  Frmdbl Imps
> ==============================================================
> Pilot         3      9    12   |  48    24    12     6      3
> Astrogation   2      7     9   |  36    18     9     4      2
>  
> I made up character sheets like this with a place for each task difficulty
> level already layed out.  When a character was created we filled in each
> row.  From then on it was just a matter of:  a. calling out the difficulty,
> b. rolling a 1d20, and c. comparing the result against the proper row and
> column of character sheet.
>  
> Eris
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

How is this superior to the MT task system?  All I have to do in MT is
keep
track of my skill level, and add it to 2d6.

- -- 
 _____
|* * *|	-Vanya (UPP 8D9B85)  | Traveller- 
|  ^  |	 vanya@partyline.net |    Science Fiction Adventure in the Far
Future
 \/ \/	 dmoody@bridge.com   | Meyers-Briggs personality type : ENJT
  \ /                        | "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled
with."

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 17:51:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Frankly, the task mechanic in TNE is superior to MT,IMO (can't say about T4
> until I have it in my hands).  I've never been mistaken for a TNE fanatic,
> but I always thought it's task system was outstanding.

Here, we can agree on task system quality. :)  MT's task system was too 
complex.  When I read TNE, I liked the task system...except for the D20.  
Just a personal choice, I know.  There isn't a logical reason for not 
liking dice other than six siders.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:00:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Switching Rules

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:

> I think that is a bit overstated.  Personally I am sticking with the
> TNE rules, I have every other set of Traveller rules, and so far I like
> TNE best. I really like detailed rule sets.  I liked the 4th edition of
> Champions alot more than the 3rd, because there were so many more
> options. Its the same way with Traveller. I'm not slamming T4, heck I
> haven't even seen it, my copy is still in the mail :(, I am just
> reacting to reports on the net.  MM said they will release more
> compicated versions of combat and character generation later on, maybe
> I'll switch later on, but for now I'll use TNE.  

Yeah, I guess I was jumping the gun in proclaiming what I did.  Lord 
knows I'll never, ever, ever get rid of my CT stuff.  Heck, I'm still in 
the market for a few more CT items! :)  

Like you, I enjoy complexity.  But there are differences in our views of 
it.  I like the CT style of complexity:  complexity with choice.  On a 
system-by-system basis, you can choose to use the simple one or the 
complex one (and, in many cases, there are other gradations).  Sometimes 
I roll up basic CT characters for NPC's, other times I use the advanced 
character generation systems.  I do the same thing with other systems, 
using what I feel is appropriate at the time.  

Another difference between our views is that I am willing to go with T4 
as-is for a few months, until they come out with the more complex stuff 
so I once again have a choice.  I guess it is partly a leap of faith, and 
partly a willingness to give up the choice (for a time) in favor of jumping 
right into T4.


> 	This doesn't mean I won't read the TML, or talk to you guys,
> most of the stuff I write up is on background anyway.  I wouldn't think
> of it as a split among Traveller fans, more just as way to allow 
> people to select the rule set that fits them best.  Vanya will use
> modified MT, you'll use T4, and I'll use TNE, but we will all still be
> playing Traveller, and we can still argue about dropping rocks on
> Feudal Technocrats.

Well said.  I certainly won't be bashing people for making a different 
choice than I do.  But since the first time after T4's release that 
someone said they prefer an older set of rules, I've been dreading 
another split among the fans.  

Hopefully, T4 won't do the same thing to the fans that TNE did.  In other 
words, I hope all the fans can take the same attitude you do.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:09:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Vanya wrote:

> How is this superior to the MT task system?  All I have to do in MT is
> keep
> track of my skill level, and add it to 2d6.

Ut oh.  Here come the Task System Wars. :)  Uh..how about a compromise?  
Uhmmm..."All task systems are equal.  Some are just more equal than 
others." :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 01:16:35 +0000 ()
Subject: FF&S weapons (LONG)

Hy Folks,

	I have written some simple awk scripts for calulation weapons,
	and for lasers and mesons they give quite the right values, but
	for particle accellerators I think I have the wrong formular
	for calulating the effective range. An other minor discrepance
	is the calculated diameter of a meson gun. If somebody with
	more knowledge of imperial design want to debug it, he is
	invited to do so.

By Michael

PS : I hope it's not a afount to post programms here ?
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de


  				---- cut here ---

echo File traveller/design/README
sed '/^X/s///' > traveller/design/README << '/'
X
X	FF&S - Weapon design scripts		(c) GPL kraehe@bakunin.north.de
X	-----------------------------------------------------------------------
X
X	This is the first alpha version of my weapon design scripts, based
X	on formulars from FF&S (c) GDW. I used GNU-AWK as an implementation
X	language because its highly portable an free available for several
X	platforms.
X
X	Usage :
X
X	calculate standart turret laser :
X
X		TL 12, 120 Mj, 18dm radius, 4 clicks beam pointer
X
X	echo 12 120 18 4 | laser.gawk
X
X	calculate particle accelerator :
X
X		TL 12, 1000 Mj, 144m length, 10 click beam pointer, 18dm radius
X
X	echo 12 1000 144 10 18 | particle.gawk
X
X		TL 12, 400 Mj, 30m length, 4 click beam pointer,
X		maximum radius
X
X	echo 12 400 30 4 | particle.gawk
X
X	calculate meson gun :
X
X		TL 12, 1000 Mj, 144m length, 5 click beam pointer
X
X	echo 12 1000 144 5 | meson.gawk
X
X	Limitations & Bugs :
X
X	- The techlevel must be between 10 and 15.
X
X	- The calculated values are slighliy different to brillian lances
X	  for lasers and meson guns. This is documented in a FF&S erata.
X
X	- Effective range for particle accelerators is very different to
X	  brilliant lances, this is perhaps a bug in FF&S or in my scripts.
X	  (But I rethought my script more than once ;-)
X
X	- Only space combat damage is calculated and lasers are always
X	  tuneable.
X
/
echo File traveller/design/laser.gawk
sed '/^X/s///' > traveller/design/laser.gawk << '/'
X#! /usr/local/bin/gawk -f
X
XBEGIN {
X	printf "TL DE rad range\n"
X	}
X
X{	tl=$1;de=$2;r=$3;bra=$4
X
X	ie=de*5
X
X
X	vol=de*3.1416*r*r/10000
X	if (tl>=12) vol=vol/10
X
X	bpv=1.2; hpg=0.08
X	fm=3; rf=50; wl="  2.0 k-anstroems UV"
X	if (tl>=11) { fm=4; rf=100; wl="  1.0 k-anstroems FUV"; hpg=0.06  }
X	if (tl>=12) { fm=5;                   hpg=0.05; bpv=1 }
X	if (tl>=13) { fm=6;                   hpg=0.045 }
X	if (tl>=14) {                         hpg=0.04; bpv=0.6 }
X	if (tl>=15) { rf=1000;      wl="100.0 anstroems EUV"; hpg=0.035;bpv=0.3 }
X	
X	f=fm*fm*r*r*4/10; er=rf*f/30000
X
X	printf "Tech-Level      : %3.3s\n", tl
X	printf "Discharge       : %5.1f Mj\n", de
X	printf "Diameter        : %5.1f m\n", 0.2*r
X	printf "Short Range     : %5.1f clicks\n", bra
X	printf "Wavelength      : %s\n", wl
X	printf "Effective Range : %5.1f clicks\n", er
X	printf "Power Input     : %5.1f MW\n", ie/180
X	printf "HPG   Volume    : %5.1f m3\n", ie*hpg
X	printf "Focal Volume    : %5.1f m3\n", vol
X	printf "BeamP Volume    : %5.1f m3\n", bra*bpv
X	printf "Mass            : %5.1f t\n", ie*hpg*2+bra*bpv+vol
X	printf "Damage          : "
X
X	ra=bra;
X	for (j=1;j<5;j++) {
X		rd=er*er/(ra*ra)
X		if (rd > 1) rd=1
X		printf "%d:1/%d-%d ", ra, 0.8*sqrt(de*rd)+0.5, 2.5*sqrt(de*rd)+0.5
X		ra=ra*2
X		}
X
X	printf "\n"
X	}
/
chmod a+x traveller/design/laser.gawk
echo File traveller/design/meson.gawk
sed '/^X/s///' > traveller/design/meson.gawk << '/'
X#! /usr/local/bin/gawk -f
X
XBEGIN {
X	printf "TL DE length range\n"
X	}
X
X{	tl=$1;de=$2;len=$3;bra=$4
X
X	ie=de*5
X
X	bpv=1.2; hpg=0.08; lm=0.0; vm=0
X	
X	if (tl>=11) { hpg=0.06;          lm=0.8; vm=0.02 }
X	if (tl>=12) { hpg=0.05; bpv=1;   lm=1;   vm=0.01 }
X	if (tl>=13) { hpg=0.045;         }
X	if (tl>=14) { hpg=0.04; bpv=0.6; lm=1.2; }
X	if (tl>=15) { hpg=0.035;bpv=0.3; }
X	
X	er=len*lm/30
X
X	printf "Tech-Level      : %3.3s\n", tl
X	printf "Discharge       : %5.1f Mj\n", de
X	printf "Diameter        : %5.1f m\n", sqrt(de*vm)/3.1416*2
X	printf "Short Range     : %5.1f clicks\n", bra
X	printf "Effective Range : %5.1f clicks\n", er
X	printf "Power Input     : %5.1f MW\n", ie/180
X	printf "Tunnel Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", len*de*vm
X	printf "HPG    Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", ie*hpg
X	printf "BeamP  Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", bra*bpv
X	printf "Damage          : "
X
X	ra=bra;
X	for (j=1;j<5;j++) {
X		rd=er*er/(ra*ra)
X		if (rd > 1) rd=1
X		printf "%d:%d ", ra, 5*sqrt(de*rd)+0.5
X		ra=ra*2
X		}
X
X	printf "\n"
X	}
/
chmod a+x traveller/design/meson.gawk
echo File traveller/design/particle.gawk
sed '/^X/s///' > traveller/design/particle.gawk << '/'
X#! /usr/local/bin/gawk -f
X
XBEGIN {
X	printf "TL DE length range [radius]\n"
X	}
X
X{	tl=$1;de=$2;len=$3;bra=$4
X
X	r=len/16; if ((NF == 5) && ($5<r*10)) r=$5/10
X
X	if (de > len*len) de=len*len
X
X	ie=de*5
X
X	bpv=1.2; hpg=0.08; fam=1; lm=0.16; mm=1
X	
X	if (tl>=11) { hpg=0.06;          fam=2; lm=0.2; mm=0.75 }
X	if (tl>=12) { hpg=0.05; bpv=1;   fam=3; lm=0.25 }
X	if (tl>=13) { hpg=0.045;                lm=0.3  }
X	if (tl>=14) { hpg=0.04; bpv=0.6; fam=4; lm=0.5  }
X	if (tl>=15) { hpg=0.035;bpv=0.3;        lm=1    }
X	
X	er=3.1416*r*r*fam*len*lm/30
X
X	printf "Tech-Level      : %3.3s\n", tl
X	printf "Discharge       : %5.1f Mj\n", de
X	printf "Diameter        : %5.1f m\n", 2*r
X	printf "Short Range     : %5.1f clicks\n", bra
X	printf "Effective Range : %5.1f clicks\n", er
X	printf "Power Input     : %5.1f MW\n", ie/180
X	printf "Tunnel Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", 3.1416*r*r*len
X	printf "HPG    Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", ie*hpg
X	printf "BeamP  Volume   : %5.1f m3\n", bra*bpv
X	printf "Damage          : "
X
X	ra=bra;
X	for (j=1;j<5;j++) {
X		rd=er*er/(ra*ra)
X		if (rd > 1) rd=1
X		printf "%d:%d ", ra, 5*sqrt(de*rd)+0.5
X		ra=ra*2
X		}
X
X	printf "\n"
X	}
/
chmod a+x traveller/design/particle.gawk

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 02:02:12 +0000 ()
Subject: FAQs ?

Hy folks,

	i think these are FAQ's, but as I'm new to this list, I have
	to ask them ;-)

	- Is there a complete list of UWP of the charted space for
	  1116 (imperial time) anywhere on the net. And is the same
	  available for 1201.

	- Is there a posiblity to make a star system official.

	- Are there rules for system economies so I can calulate
	  how many PAD, Ships, etc can be produced by a system
	  given a tech level, population and a trade index.
	  (with trade index I mean how many trade is usual for this
	   system, as I think a system without trade has to produce
	   everything on his own, while a system with a lot of trade
	   can specialies industrie and assemble parts)

	- Is there any pbm to join, defining the time after AI, to
	  start with a surviving system and bootstrap to NE.

	And this is realy a FAQ - so dont answer to this list, but
	to me directly :

	- A welthy AI designed a 9 disp ton escape capsule with a jump
	  drive. This is easy posible using FF&S as the capsule doesnt
	  waste room for a live support system.

	  The tml-faq sais : "TNE: Yes, no rule restricts their construction"
	  and "CT/MT: ... a 'no jump ship under 100t' rule exists"

	  Can I interprete this that a "jump torpedo" only makes sense
	  for a AI *who needs no life support* or is this just a rule
	  drop because they forgot it in FF&S.

By Michael

PS : I have a lot more questions, now that I'm on the list ;-)
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:37:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: T4: EDU and Grad school

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Eric Nolan wrote:

> >>Folks, having a PhD *should* mean that you're pretty close to an expert in
> >>ONE field (a few skills), but not EVERY skill that is based on EDU.  
> 
> This would be my thinking on it also.  I would agree that going to
> University gets you some bonuses to your education but it would also
> give specific skills.  A mixture of +1 Edu and skills would be a good
> thing.

Well, schooling does yield skills and EDU under T4.  One skill per year 
(plus possible bonus skills, as with careers), and one point of EDU per 
year.  This is true of all eight forms of schooling, by the way.  

I dug out my old EDU to Schooling Equivalent chart, and I never 
envisioned a 1:1 ratio for schooling years to EDU.  It just doesn't work 
out.  15 possible points, and many more than 15 possible years spent in 
schooling.

Here's the chart I came up with, lo these many years ago:

EDU   Highest Grade Completed    
 1    No Formal Schooling
 2    2nd Grade 
 3    4th Grade
 4    6th Grade
 5    8th Grade
 6    10th Grade
 7    High School Diploma/Equivalent
 8    1 Year of College
 9    AA/AS
 A    BA/BS
 B    MA/MS
 C    Ph.D. 
 D    Ph.D. & BA/BS 
 E    Ph.D. & MA/MS
 F    Ph.D. & Ph.D.

Obviously this table has its problems as well, and I'd probably make it 
differently if I were to do it again today.  Nonetheless, it is useful 
for illustrating a different idea of what EDU signifies.  IG assumed each 
point of EDU represented one point of college/university education.  I 
preferred to think of 7 as being a high school diploma, and roughly each 
point thereafter as an additional degree.  Under my system, then, a 
character who completes the four-year College process would have an edu 
of A.  One who went on to the Graduate School table would, the first tim 
around move to EDU B, the second time C, and so on.

This, coupled with the one skill per year rule already in place, seems 
more realistic to me.  But, then, I see education as simply being a 
reflection of school years completed (as does IG), which doesn't work 
quite as well in terms of logic when used with EDU-based task rolls.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:38:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Mike Basinger wrote:

> I have made a T4 Character sheet in Excel 5.0 for PC/Mac. Would anybody 
> be interested in it. I can post it to ftp.mpgn.com as soon as the ftp 
> archive is on-line again.

If it produces a better character sheet than the one in the back of T4, 
I'd be interested in it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:01:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...

Thus Svend Andersen <svend.andersen@vuw.ac.nz> did speak:

>   So if you think waiting for the new version of Traveller is bad *now*,
> just imagine having to have it shipped to, say, Mars (assuming we go
> play with the microbes... :).

Hmm.  Since the commodity is simply information, simply beam it over 
with the trusty LasComm and print it locally. :)

                 Edward Swatschek -- edjs@mindlink.net+
ConQuest 96 - Vancouver's Premier Gaming Convention - http://mindlink.net/md/+
General Inquiries: md@mindlink.net -*-*- GMs/Referees: vicki.domanski@ubc.ca+

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov  Jr." <sezovr@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:31:57 -0400
Subject: Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply 

> I enjoyed it, but I liked the "flavor" of the book much better. The book
took
> place in the future--they had flying cars, etc (one of the technologies I
> loved was the newspaper stand that printed the newspaper while Sam
> waited), but the movie seemed to take place in the present. I didn't
> particularly like the casting of whoever played Mary and Sam; I had
never
> seen them before, and they certainly weren't what I pictured from the
> book. 

>Which version of the book did you read? The original, or the revised
>edition that came out a few years back? The "revisions consisted of
>removing a bunch of ham-handed editing by the original publisher, and
>restoring a few cuts. I personally like the "revised" version better.
>The feel is a bit different (*better*) without the stupid changes, and the
>added scenes are most definitely *exactly* what you'd expect to happen
>give such a situation (the major one invovling what they use as
>entertainment in the "occupied" areas.)

Most likely it was the original. I still have it; it's an old Signet paperback. I
didn't know there was a newer, revised version. Was it revised by
Heinlein, or was it published posthumously?

<stuff I said about Double Star snipped>

>It would require some rather extensive changes though. No way you
>could keep the Martians, and making it involve interstellar travel throws
>in some problems that while not obvious, would make for large plot
>holes.

Yeah, but you have to admit that the *idea* would make for a suspenseful
movie. 

>So we'd have to "lose" the aliens, unless a director has the guts to do it
>*with* the Martians, as a sort of "alternate history" (which might go over
>well, but just *try* selling it to the studios)

Yup, probably.

>Between things like "Dark Skies", and the improvements in computer
>animation (pioneered on TV by Babylon 5) I expect that it won't be
>*that* long before it's possible for a *small* company to start producing
>decent SF movies from the "classics".

Tell you what, I'm sure enjoying the reruns of "V" on the Sci-Fi channel!
Much better than "Independence Day," IMHO.

Rich Sezov
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  
Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr


------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:48:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> If it produces a better character sheet than the one in the back of T4, 
> I'd be interested in it.
> 

It looks almost exactly like the one in the back of the T4 book. What 
would people like to see in a T4 character sheet? I'm open to any and all 
suggestions.

I also going to design a GM screen tonight since IG may not get to it for 
awhile.

Mike
- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:50:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Review: Retraction!

I goofed in my recent review of T4.  I didn't read carefully enough the 
first time through.  On going back over the Skills listing, the error I 
noted therein is actually far less serious than I had originally thought.

It is true (as I noted) that the promised italics used as an indication 
of skills that may be used at Level-0 are missing from the Skills List.  
However, in the actual Skill Descriptions, such skills /are/ noted.  The 
method is using the word "Default" after the skills, such as:

Acting (Performance Cluster, Default)    Int or Soc

I had mistaken the intended use of italics to be in the Skills 
Descriptions as well as in the Skills List.  This is not the case.  So, 
it /is/ possible to know which skills may be used at Level-0.  It is not 
as easy to discover as it would have been had italics been used, but this 
is certainly not a serious error.

My misunderstanding stems from the last paragraph on page 37, which states:

	"[level 0 skill use is] possible only with skills listed in 
	italics on the Skills List.  (The heading for each of those skills is 
	italicized in the individual skill descriptions as well.)"

But then in the Skills Description section, just prior to the beginning 
of the actual descriptions, it reads:

	"As in the Skills list, those skills that can be used at level 0 
	as a default are noted, as are cascade skills."

The use of the word "default" in that statement led me to re-evaluate 
what they meant by Default in the Skills Descriptions.  I had originally 
thought it meant that the skill was not a cascade skill.  In fact, there 
are many non-cascade skills listed without the word "Default" in their 
heading.  I conclude from this that "Default" must mean that the skill is 
usable at level 0.

This conclusion is borne out by the types of skills with the word 
"Default" in their heading and those that do not.  Acting, 
Administration, Athletics, and Blade Combat are "Default," while 
Artillery, Battle Dress, and Demolitions are not, for example.

I apologize most humbly to everyone for making this mistake.

As it stands, T4 now has only one known serious error: the problem with 
Mustering Out rolls.  All other errors are minor and unlikely to affect 
play (ie, typos, grammatical errors, missing bold face and italics, etc.).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:00:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

> I have made a T4 Character sheet in Excel 5.0 for PC/Mac. Would anybody 
> be interested in it. I can post it to ftp.mpgn.com as soon as the ftp 
> archive is on-line again.

ftp.mpgn.com is fine.  Go ahead and upload it.  I don't have the digest
archives back online yet.  Hopefully tomorrow.....

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:07:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Richard L. Sezov Jr. wrote:

> Tell you what, I'm sure enjoying the reruns of "V" on the Sci-Fi channel!
> Much better than "Independence Day," IMHO.

I thought I was the only one who enjoyed "V." :)  Now I wish I had the 
Sci-Fi channel more than ever.  (grumble, grumble, stinking cable 
monopolies, grumble, grumble)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:13:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Mike Basinger wrote:

> It looks almost exactly like the one in the back of the T4 book. What 
> would people like to see in a T4 character sheet? I'm open to any and all 
> suggestions.

Neat!  Thank you!

Personally, I'd like to see the Mustering Out section axed (the info in 
there really belongs in the Equipment/Credits/Valuables section).  I was 
thinking of scrunching the Advanced Education section over so its right 
edge is at the same point as the righ edge of the 
Characteristics/Background section above it.  Move 
Equipment/Credits/Valuables to where Mustering Out was, then extend 
Skills & Knowledge down into the space previously occupied by 
Equipment/credits/valuables.  I don't think space for 17 skills is enough 
under this system.  25 (or as close as you can get it to that) is more 
like it.

(Though this does squeeze eqiuipment/credits/valuables into a small 
space, I admit.  But since weapons and armor are in their own box, that 
might prove sufficient.  If not, there's always the back of the sheet, 
which is where my group has always listed equipment anyway.)


> I also going to design a GM screen tonight since IG may not get to it for 
> awhile.

Cool!  I look forward to it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 21:35:54 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On 08/13/96 at 04:29 PM,  Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com> said:

>How is this superior to the MT task system?  All I have to do in MT is
>keep track of my skill level, and add it to 2d6.

Different strokes, I suppose. 

With MT you had to remember 3+, 7+, 11+, 15+ and what they went with.  You
had to add the, what was it 20% of the attribute to the skill to get your
number, but that could be pregenerated.  Then add that number to one of
those level numbers and compare to a 2d6. Easy for you! <g>

Harder for me. <shrug>

Truth to tell, T4's system would be OK with me if it wasn't for the darn .5
dice!  No matter what Joe says I *know* I'm not going to like them. <g>

Eris

ps.

I wrote a Traveller-4 Die Roller this afternoon.  That's one reason I
wanted the know whated the details on the task levels, I knew I had this
afternoon off to work on the program. <g>

It works nicely, just hit the button for the task level and it generates a
number for you.  As long as the computer rolls the .5 dice for me, the
system is just fine.  <g>

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 22:33:59 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On 08/13/96 at 05:51 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> Frankly, the task mechanic in TNE is superior to MT,IMO (can't say about 
>> until I have it in my hands).  I've never been mistaken for a TNE fanatic
>> but I always thought it's task system was outstanding.

>Here, we can agree on task system quality. :)  MT's task system was too 
>complex.  When I read TNE, I liked the task system...except for the D20.  
>Just a personal choice, I know.  There isn't a logical reason for not 
>liking dice other than six siders.  :)

I don't like using lots of different dice sizes either, but I don't take it
to extremes like you.  Using d6's, d10's and d20's would do it for me.  I'd
personally *prefer* to do everything on d100, but there isn't a system like
that enough like Traveller to lure me away.  <g>

You know it's the distributions that are the problem, normal vs uniform.  A
single d6 has a very course uniform (flat) distribution, and you can't get
anything more fine unless you add more pips.  Add a second die and now your
distribution is normal (bell shaped). There are many kinds of things easier
to handle with uniform
distributions, but for that you need d10's, d20's, etc.  You just can't
substitute more d6's, uniform distributions don't look or act like normal
distributions.

The last couple of days I've been thinking about the task system, the way
skills are figured in general.  Attributes *should* play a part in a
skill's asset, but not as big a part as they do in TNE and appear to do in
T4.  Take one skill, Astrogation for example:  your controlling attribute
is AGL 7, your skill level (that you spent 12 years developing) is 3, your
asset is 10..fully 70% coming from your attribute!   Your 12 years of
experience and work are only 30% of your ability to fly that ship?  You are
only 30% better after all this time than the first time you stepped onto a
Bridge?

Can't say I have a good answer.  I've toyed with all kinds of ideas, but I
haven't come up with anything...yet.  

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 21:53:06 -0500
Subject: T4: EDU and Grad school

On 08/13/96 at 04:36 PM,  "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk> said:

>Last year (pre-IG) I was working on building a comprehensive set of 
>education resources for MegaTraveller, basically an expansion of the 
>higher-education sections in the char-gen rules.  I suppose that's  what
>you do when you have plenty of spare time on your hands...

You too, huh? <g>  I've tinkered with similar things over the years.

>I ruled that Liberal Arts students tended to get more bonuses to
>edu and fewer specific skills, while students of the Sciences got
>more specific skills and fewer edu bonuses.

I understand your reasoning, and in *general* I'd agree with you.  I hate
to get into this too much without seeing T4, but here goes...

In the game I just don't think it would work out.  The way TNE and now (I
think) T4 uses EDU as a *major* portion of many, many skills makes the
attributes extremely important.  The act of getting a +1 in EDU is the same
as getting a +1 in every skill you have (or will ever have) that is based
on EDU.

Think about it!  "Hum, take a +1 in history or a +1 in EDU, and therefore
raise history and 6 more skills?  Which you should I take?"  <g> I can
really see people using strategies to maximize their Attributes, and then
adding a bunch of Skill 1's.  This would leverage their investment much
more than investing directly in skills.

I honestly think the use of attributes as big chunks of a skill asset is
wrong.  No, "wrong" isn't the right word..unrealistic, that's it!
Unrealistic. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 22:47:29 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On 08/13/96 at 06:09 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Ut oh.  Here come the Task System Wars. :)  Uh..how about a compromise?  
>Uhmmm..."All task systems are equal.  Some are just more equal than 
>others." :)

Ok! Ok! <g>

Not the Task System Wars, the beginning of the New Improved Much Better
Task System.  Speaking for the list in general, there were some things
about MT's system we like, some things about TNE's system we like, and
(when we get our hands on it) there will be some things about T4's system
we like.  There are also things we *don't* like.  <g> 

Rather than bashing, let's discuss ways to make the systems we use better. 
I'd like a way to adapt TNE's task system to work with T4. I'd like to find
a way to modify, tweek, T4's system so that it doesn't use those .5 dice! 
<g> I'd like to look at ways of reducing the influence of attributes to
more reasonable levels.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 23:08:34 -0500
Subject: T4: Task system?

On 08/13/96 at 02:08 AM,  Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> said:

>Exactly my point.  IMHO, resorting to half-dice or other things in
>circumstances where they will be used a _lot_ indicates that the design
>wasn't well-thought-out [*].  it would certainly have been easy to
>increase to steps to full dice, and inflate the attribute and skill levels
>to match.

If there's a way to do it, we need to figure out a way to design those .5
dice right out.  How about some alternate Task System rules?  <g> Maybe we
could come up with a way to do it in 5 steps, 1d6 up to 5d6?  Or maybe a
way to move the TNE task system over to T4 can be worked out?

>[*] Either that, or the designer didn't know enough about
>    probability and statistics to be able to figure it out.

I won't get into that, it took me 2 terms to wrestle Statistics 101 to the
ground. <g>

>    Personally, I believe Marc Miller is more knowledgable than
>    that (though I wouldn't have trouble believing it of a number
>    of other RPG designers - I recall one well-known RPG writer
>    who told me that, given an event that has a 1/10 chance of
>    happening per day, he didn't know how to compute the chance of it
>    happening at least once over the course of a week).

Uh, roughly 50%? <g>  (1-(1-.1)^7)

Now what is the chance of a 10%/day event happening *exactly* once during a
week?

Seriously, we need probability tables for 1.5d6, 2.5d6, and 3.5d6. I've
done this sort of thing for 2, 3, and 4d6 using brute force, but *is* there
a way to figure probabilities for each number in some easier manner?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 23:15:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Lurkers (& others) down under...

On 08/13/96 at 07:01 PM,  "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net> said:

>Thus Svend Andersen <svend.andersen@vuw.ac.nz> did speak:

>>   So if you think waiting for the new version of Traveller is bad *now*,
>> just imagine having to have it shipped to, say, Mars (assuming we go
>> play with the microbes... :).

>Hmm.  Since the commodity is simply information, simply beam it over  with
>the trusty LasComm and print it locally. :)

...but don't forget to deposit 25 credits in IG's account for every printed
or downloaded copy!  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 14:32:41 +1000
Subject: Re: T4: Task system 

hi,

>Truth to tell, T4's system would be OK with me if it wasn't for the darn .5
>dice!  No matter what Joe says I *know* I'm not going to like them. <g>

There is a simple solution to the .5d6: double the target number and multiply all d6's rolled by 2.  The .5d6 becomes a full d6 and everything is fine.  If you cannot hanlde multiplying by two, count all dice except the .5 twice when adding the total!

The alternative of doubling the number of d6's rolled and comparing to twice the target isn't as nice because of the nasty bell curve.



Pauli
- -- 
Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 23:33:08 -0500
Subject: T4: EDU and Grad school

On 08/13/96 at 08:37 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>This, coupled with the one skill per year rule already in place, seems 
>more realistic to me.  But, then, I see education as simply being a 
>reflection of school years completed (as does IG), which doesn't work 
>quite as well in terms of logic when used with EDU-based task rolls.

Well, I see EDU not as years of school, or even knowledge learned. I see it
as a basic *ability* to learn in a scholarly way.  Having high EDU should
mean it's easier for you to learn and improve certain kinds of skills, and
that you improve in those skills faster. 

The *right* way to do this would be to make the controlling
Attribute some kind of multiplier of the skill levels.  A
straightforward way to do it would be to multiply the Attribute by the
skill level to get the Skill Asset.  This way a PC with very low Attributes
wouldn't go up per skill level nearly as much as a PC with high Attributes.


As I see it..

INT is raw intelligence, creativity, learning by doing.

EDU is learning from books, in schools, the skill of *how* to study
effectively.

AGL is a sort of body-intelligence, balance, fine and gross
dexterity.

STR is power, lifting ability, how hard you hit.

CON is endurance, how much you can take.

Just *what* is T4's sixth Attribute?  <g> Social Standing or
Charisma?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 15:27:04 +1000
Subject: Re: T4: Task system? 

hi,

>Now what is the chance of a 10%/day event happening *exactly* once during a
>week?

Hows about 7 * (.1 * (1-.1)^6) = .37

I.e. The chance of it only happening on the first day is .1 * .9 * .9 * ...
and on the second .9 * .1 * .9 * .9 * ...  and so on.  These events have
no intersection so the probability of two occuring together is zero.
The old rule P(A or B) = P(a) + P(b) - P(A and B) gives the answer.


>Seriously, we need probability tables for 1.5d6, 2.5d6, and 3.5d6. I've
>done this sort of thing for 2, 3, and 4d6 using brute force, but *is* there
>a way to figure probabilities for each number in some easier manner?

Brute force still works.

You could work things out a little more nicely:  1.5d6 is a d6 and a d3; each
combination of rolls has a 1/18 chance of occuring.  Now you've only got
to work out which of the 8 legal values (2..9) each of the 18 rolls can
give.  Naturally it gets more involved for 2.5d6 and 3.5d6 but it is
still possible....


I present a table of the probabilities

Res       1.5d6          2.5d6          3.5d6
- ---   -----------   ------------   ------------
 2    0.055555556              -              -   
 3     0.11111111   0.0092592593              -   
 4     0.16666667    0.027777778   0.0015432099   
 5     0.16666667    0.055555556   0.0061728395   
 6     0.16666667    0.083333333    0.015432099   
 7     0.16666667     0.11111111    0.029320988   
 8     0.11111111     0.13888889    0.047839506   
 9    0.055555556     0.14814815    0.070987654   
10              -     0.13888889    0.094135802   
11              -     0.11111111     0.11265432   
12              -    0.083333333     0.12191358   
13              -    0.055555556     0.12191358   
14              -    0.027777778     0.11265432   
15              -   0.0092592593    0.094135802   
16              -              -    0.070987654   
17              -              -    0.047839506   
18              -              -    0.029320988   
19              -              -    0.015432099   
20              -              -   0.0061728395   
21              -              -   0.0015432099   

Of course I did this on computer using plain old brute force :-)


Finally, rather than buying a d3, try making them.  Get a block of wood
and some dowel in a contrasting colour.  Shape the block square and
rounds the edges a bit.  Drill holes for the pips and use the dowel to
make it look nice.  I've d6's and d3's with 8.5cm 3.5 (inch) edges -- not
much use for gaming cause they dent the table, but great for throwing at
people.  A smaller version should do the trick nicely.






Dr Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 00:31:05 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On 08/14/96 at 02:32 PM,  Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au> said:

>>Truth to tell, T4's system would be OK with me if it wasn't for the darn .
>>dice!  No matter what Joe says I *know* I'm not going to like them. <g>

>There is a simple solution to the .5d6: double the target number and
>multiply all d6's rolled by 2.  The .5d6 becomes a full d6 and everything
>is fine.  If you cannot hanlde multiplying by two, count all dice except
>the .5 twice when adding the total!

Simple he says! <g>  

Pauli, I want to simplify, not complicate the system.  What's the
improvement in doing 2 doublings in exchange for one division?  <g> I
better way is still sought.

>The alternative of doubling the number of d6's rolled and comparing to
>twice the target isn't as nice because of the nasty bell curve.

Yep, and I'm not interested to going to 8 dice on a roll either. <g>

I'm going to have to have my hands on T4 before I decide about the Task
system. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:11:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Software Announcement

So...  Are these pgms portable, or Mac only? - Bill

At 07:21 PM 8/10/96 EST, you wrote:
>Having spent an idyllic month on the Sunshine Coast - just sun, surf, cedars,
>eagles, and my Mac - I've virtually finished my system generation program for
>the Macintosh.  In fact, I'm now ready for beta testing.
>
>Metator (not the earlier application, which I've renamed) generates - or
>expands from basic UWP - a complete system.  The system can be displayed as a
>text listing, a simplified schematic, or a simpliflied chart showing the
>relative orbital locations of each planet.  Graphics are colour on black
>(with the option of printing colour on white to save ink/toner).
>
>Each planet is further detailed with:
>
>- objects in sky (satellites, other worlds), with locations and apparent
>sizes
>- period, rotation, orbital eccentricity, axial tilt, albedo
>- core type, density, mass, gravity, horizon, native life
>- atmospheric composition and pressure
>- temperature chart
>- world map
>- local population, cities, customs, attitudes
>- government description
>- legal profile
>- tech profile
>- gross world product, credit name/value, notable resources
>- atmospheric pressure and water pressure tables
>- passenger and freight rolls, unique cargo table (based on the system I
>described in June)
>- satellite chart
>- animal encounter tables
>
>I have some known bugs to track down, and some features to finish (such as
>armd forces description) but I think some beta testing now would be really
>useful.
>
>My earlier Metator, now renamed Imperial Grand Survey, is almost finished as
>well.  It was actually working before I tried to add all the above features,
>so it's just a matter of removing the last few 'enhancements' and getting it
>to compile.
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:20:58 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

Pls do... - Bill

At 04:32 PM 8/13/96 EST, you wrote:
>I have made a T4 Character sheet in Excel 5.0 for PC/Mac. Would anybody 
>be interested in it. I can post it to ftp.mpgn.com as soon as the ftp 
>archive is on-line again.
>
>Mike
>
>--
>D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
>dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
><http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
>"Not speaking for Indiana University"
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:28:26 +0100
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

Eris Reddoch writes:
> From then on it was just a matter of: a. calling out the difficulty,
> b. rolling a 1d20, and c. comparing the result against the proper
> row and column of character sheet.

Personally I just call out the skill to roll against, the players roll
and compare the result to their asset, and then tell me what
difficulty level they would have succeeded at.  This gives me the
ability to give out more information for better successes without
forcing the players to roll several times, or even to know when they
have all the information.  From the sounds of it this isn't possible
with the T4 task system.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:35:29 +0000
Subject: Re: T4: EDU and Grad school

> In the game I just don't think it would work out.  The way TNE and now (I
> think) T4 uses EDU as a *major* portion of many, many skills makes the
> attributes extremely important.  The act of getting a +1 in EDU is the same
> as getting a +1 in every skill you have (or will ever have) that is based
> on EDU.
> 
Well, I suppose it does show my biases.  I did my degree in European 
History.   ;-)

- -Chris
- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:51:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> The last couple of days I've been thinking about the task system, the way
> skills are figured in general.  Attributes *should* play a part in a
> skill's asset, but not as big a part as they do in TNE and appear to do in
> T4.  Take one skill, Astrogation for example:  your controlling attribute
> is AGL 7, your skill level (that you spent 12 years developing) is 3, your
> asset is 10..fully 70% coming from your attribute!   Your 12 years of
> experience and work are only 30% of your ability to fly that ship?  You are
> only 30% better after all this time than the first time you stepped onto a
> Bridge?

Remember, under T4 the target number for level 0 skill use is 1/2 the 
relevant attribute, rounded up.  So, no, you are not only 30% better than 
you were when you first stepped on the bridge.

The problem you note does, however, come into effect when going from 
level 1 to level 2.  As you say, you may spend 4 years gaining that one 
skill level, yet it only leads to a relatively small increase in the 
probability you will succeed at a given task.  

Under this sort of system, it would be better to have many skills at 
level 1 than fewer skills at higher levels, I think.  Hmm.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:10:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: GM Screen and Character Sheet

What information would people like to see on the GM screen. I have 
started with the skill list. What other tables would be useful. [Note: I 
have not gotten any permision to post a GM screen from IG yet.]

Also, I'm going to wait a couple of days before posting my excel 
character sheet. I'm going to re-work it some. People have suggested to 
add other section for Offensive, defensive, and fatigue pool. I was 
thinking a 1.5 page character sheet with full information, with a 
associated .5 page character sheet.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #321
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 14 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 322

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4: Rules/Setting
         2. Re: FAQs ?
         3. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
         4. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)
         5. The Imperial Establishing Document
         6. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)
         7. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)
         8. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         9. Re: T4: Task system
        10. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        11. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters) -Reply
        12. Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters) -Reply
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #320
        14. Gen Con
        15. T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique
        16. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:37:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: Rules/Setting

Hi,

I Just want to discuss one of the things that had been brought up 
during the "Gee, I hope T4 is/is not" discussions we had a few weeks 
ago, which I thought I should address now that T4 is out:

Many of us were hoping the setting would be separate from the rules.  
In my opinion, this is sufficiently the case to make me happy.  The idea 
of the official setting is visible throughout the book in that the 
underpinnings of that setting, such as jump drives and no other FTL 
communications, are there.  In a few locations the book discusses or 
alludes to the official setting.  

BUT, the book kept the "you can recreate any setting from any book or 
movie, or your from your own imagination with these rules" speech from 
the CT books.  And, the only specifics it gets into vis a vis the 
Imperium is the Core sector grid, the Core sector data, the Library data, 
and the two adventures.  

In other words, the book is neither more nor less setting independent 
than TTB.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:39:45 GMT
Subject: Re: FAQs ?

On Aug 14, 1996 02:02:12, 'kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)' wrote:

 
(Pssst! Hans!  This gentleman is from your neck of the woods... 
do you know him?) 
 
>	i think these are FAQ's, but as I'm new to this list, I have 
>	to ask them ;-) 
 
Fire away. 
 
>	- Is there a complete list of UWP of the charted space for 
>	  1116 (imperial time) anywhere on the net. And is the same 
>	  available for 1201. 
 
Somewhere on the Net are the DGP sectors, which covered the 3rd 
Imperium for around 1116... Some of the sectors are incomplete 
and/or erroneous, but that's the nearest thing I know of to the 
complete list of UWP for charted space.  I don't know the URL; 
you might try the ftp.mpgn.com archives.  (I have them on a CD,  
but that's not on-line).  I have no idea about 1201, but there 
are some handy scripts for collapsing systems to post-1200 status 
that will let you do whole sectors in a hurry. 
 
(One of these days I'm going to convert my REXX scripts to perl, 
as I've moved from OS/2 to Linux as my OS of choice...) 
 
>	- Is there a posiblity to make a star system official. 
 
Sort of: get it published in something like "Traveller Chronicle" 
or "Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society"--or just write it up 
in detail for Jeff Zeitlin to add to his RICE paper collection. 
If people like it, they'll use it.  If they don't, they'll use 
their own versions of a system.  If Imperium Games writes a TNS 
item using special features of your system, or stages an adventure 
there, I guess that would be as "official" as it gets. 
 
(Rob Dean's shipbuilders "Steward Interstellar Enterprises" seem 
to have gotten semi-official status; everyone liked Rob's MT ship 
designs that he posted to the list, and some of them got published 
in Challenge articles with the SIE references intact, so that SIE 
seems to have become an established part of the Regency background...) 
 
>	- Are there rules for system economies so I can calulate 
>	  how many PAD, Ships, etc can be produced by a system 
>	  given a tech level, population and a trade index. 
>	  (with trade index I mean how many trade is usual for this 
>	   system, as I think a system without trade has to produce 
>	   everything on his own, while a system with a lot of trade 
>	   can specialies industrie and assemble parts) 
 
I don't know if that's been tackled in T4 yet, but quite a few 
of us fall back to the old "Trillion Credit Squadron" formulas 
for calculating annual Navy budget, given population and a government 
type.  Use starport & tech level mods to the value of a credit, and 
that almost covers trade.  Unfortunately, I don't have the necessary 
references to hand as I write this, so someone else will have to 
provide the formulas. 
 
The campaign rules for the original "Striker" also covered determining 
annual military budget.  It wouldn't be too hard to cobble together 
rules for what you want, based on those two sources.  Also, "Fifth 
Frontier War" had some rules, regurgitated in (IIRC) The Rebellion 
Sourcebook for determining how many System Defense Squadrons and 
Army units a world had, based on population and tech-level and a 
few other modifiers. 
 
Note that not all these formulas were consistant with each other. 
 
[snipping questions I have no answer to...] 
 
>	  The tml-faq sais : "TNE: Yes, no rule restricts their construction" 
>	  and "CT/MT: ... a 'no jump ship under 100t' rule exists" 
> 
>	  Can I interprete this that a "jump torpedo" only makes sense 
>	  for a AI *who needs no life support* or is this just a rule 
>	  drop because they forgot it in FF&S. 
 
No, it means the Laws of Traveller Physics CHANGED from CT/MT to TNE. 
Pick one or the other, or do what I did and come up with some 
explanation why the 3rd Imperium couldn't build jump-capable ships 
under 100T while post-collapse civilizations could... (In my case, 
I presumed that the Solomani jump theory, like the Vilani jump 
theory before it, and the Aslan jump technology based on it,  
had some minor flaw in it that kept them from figuring out how  
to scale down jump drives and make them work.  It must have been 
a subtle flaw, because Hiver, K'Kree and Vargr jump theory are 
equally flawed.  The Droyne, OTOH, keep their jump theories to  
themselves, so who knows what they *really* know...) 
 
 
                         ---Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:45:35 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

Is the Excel spreadsheet avialable for download yet?  I'd be interested in a 
copy!  I'm still waiting for my local game store to get copies, but this will 
tide me over.

Matt

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:53:07 -0800
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)

On 14 Aug 96 at 14:14, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> >> Tell you what, I'm sure enjoying the reruns of "V" on the Sci-Fi
> channel! 
> >> Much better than "Independence Day," IMHO. 

Actually, V is a lot better than ID4.  I have the series taped off of 
cable somewhere...

> My main memories of the original run of "V" are "Lizard women 
> sluts from Outer Space"... 

I was ROFL over this one...  :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:13:53 -0400
Subject: The Imperial Establishing Document

The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions.

1. It established the Empire, which is defined as governmental unit ruled by
an Emperor over subordinate governments such as principalities, baronies,
kingdoms, etc.

2. The Empire rules the spaces between the worlds; worlds retain their own
sovereignty, but declare allegiance to the Empire.

3. Free trade.

4. Adoption of the Imperial calendar.

5. A hereditary emperor.

6. A legislative body for the purposes of advise and consent to imperial
actions the Moot. Membership is open to all nobles of the Imperium. A
relatively weak body.

Etc etc.

Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?
What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is its
name?

Discussion?

Thanks,


Marc Miller



------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:18:29 +0000
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)

> My main memories of the original run of "V" are "Lizard women 
> sluts from Outer Space"... 

So *that's* why I liked it.  <grin>


- -Chris

- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:12:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters)

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Dragoness Eclectic wrote:

>  
> My main memories of the original run of "V" are "Lizard women 
> sluts from Outer Space"... 

<confused look>  Well, yeah.  What did you think I liked about it?  
Sheesh!  <grin>


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:44:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
> of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
> the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions.
> 
> 1. It established the Empire, which is defined as governmental unit ruled by
> an Emperor over subordinate governments such as principalities, baronies,
> kingdoms, etc.

With the ultimate right of the Emperor to dissolve any said subordinate
government that violates any part of the Imperial Charter

> 
> 2. The Empire rules the spaces between the worlds; worlds retain their own
> sovereignty, but declare allegiance to the Empire.
> 

The Empire can at any time require that any member world provide a certain
portion of its income and armed forces to help the greater good of the
Imperium. This shall not exceed 10% of the worlds assets or defense
force without consetual agreement by the member world in question.


> 3. Free trade.


Any world that acts in a manner to interfere with free trade will be
dealt with most stringently by the Imperium, up to and including
occupation  and dissolution of the government should sanctions not be
heeded.


> 
> 4. Adoption of the Imperial calendar.
> 
> 5. A hereditary emperor.
> 
> 6. A legislative body for the purposes of advise and consent to imperial
> actions the Moot. Membership is open to all nobles of the Imperium. A
> relatively weak body.


Whos only real power is to pass articles of advisement to the Emperor, and
to dissolve the Imperium.


> 
> Etc etc.
> 
> Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?
> What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is its
> name?



Loopholes: incompetent Emperors should be oustable under law, but this
should not be readily apparant.

Names: 	Articles of Imperialization?
	Imperial Charter?
	Proclaimation and Articles of the Imperialization of the Sylean
Federation?
	Declaration and Charter of the Third Imperium?


etc


> 
> Discussion?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Marc Miller
> 
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:45:25 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system

> On 08/13/96 at 04:29 PM,  Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com> said:
> 
> >How is this superior to the MT task system?  All I have to do in MT is
> >keep track of my skill level, and add it to 2d6.
> 
> Different strokes, I suppose. 

Exactly!  Use the ruleset that you and your players like best.

> Truth to tell, T4's system would be OK with me if it wasn't for the darn .5
> dice!  No matter what Joe says I *know* I'm not going to like them. <g>

Gotta agree with you here, although not completely.  I'm enough of a
'stick in the mud' to think Traveller should be 2d6.
 
> Eris
> 
> ps.
> 
> I wrote a Traveller-4 Die Roller this afternoon.  That's one reason I
> wanted the know whated the details on the task levels, I knew I had this
> afternoon off to work on the program. <g>
> 
> It works nicely, just hit the button for the task level and it generates a
> number for you.  As long as the computer rolls the .5 dice for me, the
> system is just fine.  <g>
> 
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

- -- 
 _____
|* * *|Vanya  (UPP 8D9B85)|Traveller- (in all its forms) 
|  ^  |vanya@partyline.net|Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
 \/ \/ dmoody@bridge.com  |Meyers-Briggs personality type : ENJT
  \ /         "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."

------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:52:55 +0000
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Uh oh, this should be fun <g>

I won't have a stab at the formal language, because it's the tail end 
of a long day at work, and I can't get the left brain/right brain 
connection to click.  Some of the points though are

What are the reasons for the Empire's founding?  
In my mind, the opening statment will be that the greatest thing 
about the age is travel among the stars, etc, etc.  The argument then 
follows onto discussion of the fragility of space, of how worlds can 
get lost in the vastness of it all, without a common binding force.

That force is, you guessed it, the Empire.

Is there a rational argument proffered for the establishment of a 
feudal style government structure?  Why Empire instead of, for 
instance, a United Federation of Planets (are those rocks I hear?)

The Empire does rule the space between the stars.  I like the sound 
of this.  It is stated somewhere implicitly that worlds are not 
forced or compelled to join (of course, the economic implications of 
not joining are serious)

Statement of cultural sovereignty: all worlds are allowed to maintain 
their own culture and laws, except within a fixed area of a spaceport 
and Imperial embassy.  There would also be the establishment of 
cultural standards for the Empire.  Is there a common language stated 
for Imperial business, etc?

The establishment of free trade, as well as the establishment of a 
navy and marines to protect space to protect free trade.

Let's toss around theoretical points for a while (could I stop 
you???) and then make a stab at the flowery language version.

- -Chris Arnold


 
- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov  Jr." <sezovr@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters) -Reply

>I thought I was the only one who enjoyed "V." :)  Now I wish I had the 
>Sci-Fi channel more than ever.  (grumble, grumble, stinking cable 
>monopolies, grumble, grumble)

Joe,
I think that you can rent or buy it on video now, if you're interested.

Rich Sezov
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  
Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov  Jr." <sezovr@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:58:48 -0400
Subject: Re: V (Was: Re: Puppet Masters) -Reply

  >> Tell you what, I'm sure enjoying the reruns of "V" on the Sci-Fi
channel!  >> Much better than "Independence Day," IMHO.  >  >I thought I
was the only one who enjoyed "V." :)  Now I wish I had the   >Sci-Fi
channel more than ever.  (grumble, grumble, stinking cable   >monopolies,
grumble, grumble) 
 
> My main memories of the original run of "V" are "Lizard women  sluts
>from Outer Space"... 

No, it's much more than that. The parallels to Nazi Germany are
astounding. I was a kid when it first ran: it pays to re-watch it through
adult eyes.

 
Rich Sezov
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  
Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr


------------------------------

From: CLiMD1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:43:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #320

I haven't received any digests since this one.. what's happening. I did NOT
unsubscribe!

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:12:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Gen Con

A quick recap of GenCon by someone who never attended one before;

First, I was struck by the mere number of gaming fanatics.  I read that
30,000 people attended last years convention.  This translated into huge
lines at registration during the middle of the day.  

Bratwurst seemed to be the best that Milwaukee could do for food.  There
were beer vendors in selected areas, but the root beer was better.

Games going on everywhere.  Every table was (at most times) filled with
games and gamers.  In some areas the floor was filled too.  The most
popular I saw were CCGs, especially Magic.  I also ran into a room where
almost every single table (and there were a lot) had a game of Axis and
Allies on it.  There were historical games played with hundreds of lead
figures on detailed 'diarama' style playing surfaces, games with 12" Tall
Battlemechs doing combat, games with teddy bears on a playing surface
which was a bed, games played on computers over a network, games games
games.

My Favorite Booths; Imperium Games (which shared it's booth with another
company) where I met Marc Miller (nice guy!), Ken Whitman,  Greg Porter,
Cherie Whitman (she did my dog tag) and a couple of other IG employees,
Also, Larry Elmore had another booth (his own) and was selling original
artwork (fantasy, not sci-fi).  

I loved Crazy Igors, where I spent over $100 on
such gems as; Starship Troopers board game, JOTAS's (about 5, 3 of which
were bests of) a few Megatraveller 15mm deck plans (which were expensive;
like $12.00), A Judges Guild adventure, and a few other choice items.  
I saw Hivers & Ithkur, flipped thru it, put it back, unimpressed.  I saw
Striker 2, flipped through it, added up what I already wanted, put it back
(with a small sob). 


I saw only 1 Megatraveller Journal (the one I have) how many were put out?
I did not find K'Kree (only many copies of Aslan) of the CT Alien Modules,
There are several copies of Asteroid by GDW, but none of Imperium. Poor
Dave Golden picked up a mint copy of Mayday only to find that it was
missing the rules book.

Other Booths I liked; RAFM which had only a few Traveller minatures left
(and I had no money by then anyway) , Chainmail Fashions (for the
salespersons), Wizards of the Coast (whose CCG Netrunner has possible
Traveller applications), The many Dice vendors (I picked up hit
location, crit, and 3-sided dice.  

I met Kevin Knight (they were selling the Traveller Chronicle at the IG
booth), Harold Hale, I saw Joe Walsh & Family (but didn't introduce myself
since he was deep into a game, and of course, Dave Golden (Thanks again for 
the great Starship Combat sessions Dave!).

Did anyone see Loren Wiseman, he is the only one of the Traveller people I
would have liked to meet but didn't.

All in all a great time was had by me.

By the way, never smile at a Klingon unless you mean it.

Pete

P.S. In another post I would like to recreate the rules of the ship to
ship combat system as played.


------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 18:10:27 -0400
Subject: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique

Here is the errata/potential errata I've found so far:

Step 2, the text directs you to "select a hull from the table on the next
page".  The actual chart it is refering to is on page 107, which is 15
pages later.

Step 3, the text says, "on the following table, cross-index the jump level
desired with the size of hull".  There is no such table, not below nor
anywhere else in the book, making it impossible to design jump capable
ships.

Step 6, the text indicates that missile launchers "do not have to be
crewed when operating as part of a missile battery under the control of
a master fire director", but in Step 9 the text indicates that "one gunner is
required for each weapon, sandcaster and nuclear damper battery
installed".  For missile batteries, is this gunner in addition to the one
required for the MFD?  The two statements seem to contradict each
other.

   Also, I now know why people *really* loved the Third Imperium so
much--missiles were free, shoot all you want!!!  No where have I been
able to find any mention of the *cost* or *displacement* of spare missiles,
which presumably you will need after you shoot off the ready missiles
provided in the turret or barbette (which I guess are also free).

Step 7, Small Craft External Grapples are described, Small Craft Hangars
and Launch Ports (table for which is on page 112) are not.  Fuel
Purification Plants are mentioned on page 89, but not in Step 7, which is
presumably the section they belong in (the table for them appears on
page 111).  Ditto Shops and Labs, which rates a chart on page 111, but
no explanatory text beyond what is on the chart and a brief mention of
Sickbays in Step 9.

Step 10, the text indicates you should, "multiply the number of crew
members that need workstations by the workstation characteristic
above".  One big problem: there is no characteristic above.  The chart
you need is actually located on page 112.

Chart section problems 

The Standard Military Controls table on page 105 indicates that the crew 
requirements for such controls is 0.0 at all tech levels.  Given that the
Standard  Civilian Controls table on the same page gives some number
from 1 to 3, it appears that the crew numbers for SMCs are incorrect.

The Thrust Plate Drive Potential table on 108 is rather awkwardly labeled,
giving one the impression that the Gs column starts at 100!  Easy enough
to figure out that 100 refers to displacement and that Gs run from left to
right, but this should have been done better.

Additional Criticisms

   The beginning of the Spacecraft section promises, "with the systems
in this chapter, a player design nearly any type of spacecraft, up to 5000
tons displacement".  Avoiding a criticism of the grammar used, we
discover that while the Standard Hull Configurations chart does go up to
5000 tons, there is very few options in the configurations you have to
choose from (at 3000, 4000, and 5000 tons there is only one type). 
Also, the minimum size hull is 100 tons displacement.  This means you
can forget designing your own small craft, fighters or jump shuttles for
now.  I would have much preferred that this chart be taken out to a full
page, and a wider variety of standard hulls be presented.  Surely some
company in the Third Imperium makes standard small craft components!

   While it appears that the wholesale errata that plagued MegaTraveller
(aka MegaErrata) has been avoided (thank the Divine Being), this section
is probably the most  poorly laid out of any of the four attempts (classic
T, High Guard, MT, TNE) to present a ship design system in Traveller.
For example, the charts for weapons and defensive systems
(something one would assume you could find all in one place) are
scattered over four separate pages in the charts section.  In attempting
to assemble a 1000 ton TL 12 destroyer (an attempt thwarted by the
lack of a proper jump drive chart mentioned above), I found myself
frequently flipping back and forth between pages to find the proper 
chart or instructions.  While the actual work involved in putting the
ship together was much less than with FF&S, the constant page flipping
was very annoying.  Were I to use this system on a regular basis, I
would end up photocopying the entire section and redoing the layout so
that it was in a more logical sequence.  Those responsible for the
actual layout of this section (who now will never admit it in public) should
be ceremonially flogged with a piece of wet spaghetti.

   Well that's what I've found on the first run through.  If anybody else
has any errata they have found (particularly in the charts), please post
it here.  If someone at IG would like to respond to what I've found so far,
I'm sure everyone would like to hear it.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:18:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Just a few of my ideas, off the top of my head.

At 11:13 AM 8/14/96 -0400, FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions.
>
>1. It established the Empire, which is defined as governmental unit ruled by
>an Emperor over subordinate governments such as principalities, baronies,
>kingdoms, etc.

        Relationships (i.e. oaths of fealty or allegiance) between Emperor
and nobles; relationships between political entities and nobility (landed
nobles with real power vs. titular nobles but no formal planetary
governmental position or holdings), rules of primogeniture (can a title be
inherited? Who gets it -- eldest son/offspring? legitimate or illegitimate?
and does the title include the lands? Must emperor or Moot confirm heir?);
Status of non-Imperial nobility (i.e. local titles) with respect to the
Imperium; who grants titles (higher titles from Emperor only; barons, etc.
may create own knights, etc.). Ability of emperor to strip titles for cause.

>2. The Empire rules the spaces between the worlds; worlds retain their own
>sovereignty, but declare allegiance to the Empire.

        Obligations of worlds to Imperium -- taxation? Extrality of
starports? Bodies for Imperial military? Land & support for bases? Ability
of Imperium to interfere in planetary affairs (Imperial Rules of War, for
example)? Limits on planetary military forces (to prevent rebellion --
perhaps no or limited jump capable warships, for example). Integrating
planetary forces into Imperial in time of war or crisis (general guideline
only, not detailed laws! Those left to bureaucrats or legislators).

>3. Free trade.

        Definition of free trade and who regulates. For example, systems
can't tax or interfere with shipments passing through to a third system, as
long as they're sealed or something. Then the planet New Salt Lake can't
hassle a trader who jumps in with a hold full of beer from the system Neu
Bayern, refuels and jumps to the system DryThroat. Even if the trader stops
on Salt Lake, as long as the beer remains in the hold. Different levels of
trade regulation (planets can control only at the interface between starport
and world, multiworld nobles can control trade into/out of their fief,
Imperium sets overall rules, etc.). Directs creation of imperial body
(Imperial Starport Authority or the like) to administrate extraterritorial
portion of starport, ensure consistent regulation, etc.

>4. Adoption of the Imperial calendar.
>
>5. A hereditary emperor.

        Spell out power of Emperor, even if unlimited. Who is Heir Apparent?
Can emperor name own heir (yes). Any provisions for removing Emperor. Does
the Emperor's Consort automatically become coruler, or must the emperor
nominate and the Moot confirm her as Empress? (or him as Emperor, as the
case may be).

>6. A legislative body for the purposes of advise and consent to imperial
>actions the Moot. Membership is open to all nobles of the Imperium. A
>relatively weak body.

        Likewise power of moot. Moot approves selection of Heir. Does
emperor have power to disband or suspend moot? Moot regulates & disciplines
itself. Does the Moot pass laws in its own right, or merely submit them to
the emperor for approval?

Section on Imperial Judiciary? Crimes against the Imperium (treason,
espionage, rebellion against noble authority vs rebellion against Imperium)

Services/guarantees the Imperium makes to member worlds (i.e. defend the
borders, suppress insurrection, guarantee free trade, noninterference by
member worlds in each others affairs, adjudicate disputes between member
worlds, postal service [XBoat Service], Imperial standard of currency,
etc.). Note Imperial Charter will not address "human rights" or any
individual rights, except for the Emperor and top nobles. Obligations worlds
undertake towards Imperium and one another. MAYBE a brief statement that any
citizen has the right of petition, to take a grievance up the noble chain
seeking redress for a wrong. No guarantee any noble will agree to listen,
mind you -- just the right to take it up the chain.

Different levels of Imperial membership -- full Imperial worlds are
sovereign, own nobility or government, representation in Moot and lesser
imperial bodies. Various lower levels, used for worlds joining Imperium or
being punished for attempted rebellion. See "Mote in God's Eye" for an example.

Executive branch -- military, law enforcement, etc. This should be separate
from the Emperor. Emperor is head resting on three legs, unlike, e.g., US
which has three theoretically separate and coequal branches and no head.
- --_________________________________________
temporarily SIGless while mobile post-GenCon


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #322
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 15 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 323

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The SciFi Channel
         2. Re: T4: EDU and Grad school
         3. Re: Gen Con
         4. Re: The SciFi Channel
         5. Change in List Addresses
         6. Change in List Addresses
         7. Re: Change in List Addresses
         8. Re: Change in List Addresses
         9. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique
        10. T4: Combat
        11. T4
        12. T4: EDU and Grad school
        13. Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)
        14. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        15. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 14 Aug 96 14:55:21 MS
Subject: The SciFi Channel

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> sez:
>I thought I was the only one who enjoyed "V." :)  Now I wish I had the 
>Sci-Fi channel more than ever.  (grumble, grumble, stinking cable 
>monopolies, grumble, grumble)

Hey, V was a lot of fun.  A lot of issues were simplified or ignored for the 
average TV viewer, but it was an enjoyable miniseries.  My only beef was 
motivation;  "you idiots flew past the asteroid belt and two gas gaints 
surrounded by icy moons to get WATER?"

As for the SciFi channel, for every hour of something good (V, extended version 
of Dune, The Prisoner) you get two or three hours of poorly-produced garbage 
(SciFi Buzz), infomercials for overpriced SciFi merchandise, or repeats of 
really bad 60s and 70s TV series (Incredible Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Earth 2, 
Incredible Hulk, The New Dark Shadows, Incredible Hulk, Lost in Space, 
Incredible Hulk).  It is nowhere near as cool as I hoped it would be, but its 
better than nothing.

I wish _I_ had T4 already.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com
Did I mention SciFi Channel shows Incredible Hulk a lot?

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:10:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: EDU and Grad school

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Well, I see EDU not as years of school, or even knowledge learned. I see it
> as a basic *ability* to learn in a scholarly way.  Having high EDU should
> mean it's easier for you to learn and improve certain kinds of skills, and
> that you improve in those skills faster. 

I can see uses for that way of looking at it.  I'm amenable to going with 
that as our basis.


> The *right* way to do this would be to make the controlling
> Attribute some kind of multiplier of the skill levels.  A
> straightforward way to do it would be to multiply the Attribute by the
> skill level to get the Skill Asset.  This way a PC with very low Attributes
> wouldn't go up per skill level nearly as much as a PC with high Attributes.

Okay, and if you do that then you're either going to need lots o' six 
siders for skill rolls, various dice (ie, simple = 2D4, Average=2D6, 
Difficult=2D8, Formidable=2D10, etc. - or 3D each time, or whatever works 
with the Skill Asset values we'll be working with), or you could divide 
the Skill Asset by a value for each difficulty level, such as:

Task Level    Divide By

Simple           1
Routine          2
Difficult        3
...etc. (or something like that...this is off the top of my head.)

	I'm just throwing ideas out here, by the way, trying to get as 
many ideas on the table as possible.  


> As I see it..
> 
> INT is raw intelligence, creativity, learning by doing.
> 
> EDU is learning from books, in schools, the skill of *how* to study
> effectively.
> 
> AGL is a sort of body-intelligence, balance, fine and gross
> dexterity.
> 
> STR is power, lifting ability, how hard you hit.
> 
> CON is endurance, how much you can take.
> 
> Just *what* is T4's sixth Attribute?  <g> Social Standing or
> Charisma?

T4's sixth attribute is Social Standing.  Charisma is a Skill Cluster, 
comprised of Bribery, Carousing, Diplomacy, and Fast Talk.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:38:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gen Con

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> A quick recap of GenCon by someone who never attended one before;

It was my first one, too.  But not my last. :)  I'm going to sign up for 
the Early Bird Registration as soon as the organizers get back from 
vacation, next Monday.

> First, I was struck by the mere number of gaming fanatics.  I read that
> 30,000 people attended last years convention.  This translated into huge
> lines at registration during the middle of the day.  

Carole (my wife) and I were struck by the number of gaming fanatics, 
too.  I expected a lot, but expecting and seeing are two different 
things. :)  

It was great to talk to so many people, all of whom share our passion 
for games.  That common bond of being passionate about something that 
most people know nothing about (and many have negative opinions of, 
formed in ignoranced based on media portrayals) is great to experience en 
masse like that.  


> Bratwurst seemed to be the best that Milwaukee could do for food.  There
> were beer vendors in selected areas, but the root beer was better.

Carole and I went to a greasy spoon one block away the first time we ate 
lunch there, but didn't go back as the food was pretty crummy.  Dinner 
Friday and Saturday was eaten at a tavern (whose name escapes me right 
now, d*mn it) that had great food and drinks.  It was just one block up 
and one building over from MECCA.  Definitely worth the walk.

I agree that the food served in MECCA was rather sub-par, and very 
overpriced.  But, that's what I expected.


> Games going on everywhere.  Every table was (at most times) filled with
> games and gamers.  In some areas the floor was filled too.  The most

Don't forget to mention that the floor was often filled with sleeping 
people. :)  Carole told me that one woman was asleep in the women's 
bathroom when she went in there early in the morning, and that woman was 
still sleeping there a couple of hours later. :)  I haven't seen 
behavior like that at the dratted business-related conventions I have to 
attend.  It was great to see people so relaxed and comfortable with 
themselves and their surroundings. 


> There are several copies of Asteroid by GDW, but none of Imperium. Poor

Drat.  If you wanted Imperium, you should have gone to the auction.  I 
saw no less than three copies of it there.

> Other Booths I liked; RAFM which had only a few Traveller minatures left
> (and I had no money by then anyway) , Chainmail Fashions (for the

[cough]  Uh...okay, I'll admit that I bought almost all the Traveller 
miniatures RAFM had for sale on Saturday morning.  On Monday I called 
them and ordered dozens more.  I'm glad you didn't have any money by the 
time you got around to RAFM. :)


> salespersons), Wizards of the Coast (whose CCG Netrunner has possible
> Traveller applications), The many Dice vendors (I picked up hit
> location, crit, and 3-sided dice.  

I liked the Joe Martin booth. He signed a copy of his comic book for 
Carole, who is a big fan of his.  He was quite friendly, and talked with 
us for quite some time.  Sadly, his booth seemed to be doing little 
business.  I felt a bit sorry for him.  


> I met Kevin Knight (they were selling the Traveller Chronicle at the IG
> booth), Harold Hale, I saw Joe Walsh & Family (but didn't introduce myself
> since he was deep into a game, and of course, Dave Golden (Thanks again for 
> the great Starship Combat sessions Dave!).

Drat, I wish you would have introduced yourself.  While no one wants a 
steady progression of people interrupting the game, I was saddened that I 
only met a very few TMLers at Gen-Con.  I wish we would have had the 
chance to meet.


> All in all a great time was had by me.

Us, too.

> By the way, never smile at a Klingon unless you mean it.

Heh.  While I was scouting out the number of people camped outside of the 
room where MST3K was to be, Carole saw something interesting.  A woman 
who looked to have just had a baby, walked up to a guy dressed (very 
convincingly, by the way) as a Klingon.  She spoke to him, and handed him 
her almost newborn baby.  She then backed up, took some pictures, then 
talked to him some more, thanking him.  Then she left.

Here's a person who put her newborn in a stranger's hands.  With the 
stories of modern life, one begins to doubt such things happen.  It seems 
to be just too dangerous to trust a stranger.  Yet, it happened.  Perhaps 
it was that the mother was too dumb to know the risk she may have been 
taking.  Or, perhaps it was that gamers' bond at work...


> P.S. In another post I would like to recreate the rules of the ship to
> ship combat system as played.

I've thought about doing that, but I wondered what IG would think about 
it.  

Essentially, it is the T4 combat system, with the addition of scale 
movement, and the subtraction of every defense and offense other than 
lasers, missiles, sandcasters, and armor.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:49:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The SciFi Channel

On 14 Aug 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> Hey, V was a lot of fun.  A lot of issues were simplified or ignored for the 
> average TV viewer, but it was an enjoyable miniseries.  My only beef was 
> motivation;  "you idiots flew past the asteroid belt and two gas gaints 
> surrounded by icy moons to get WATER?"

Hehehe.  Yeah, but at least they didn't drop rocks. :)


> As for the SciFi channel, for every hour of something good (V, extended version 
> of Dune, The Prisoner) you get two or three hours of poorly-produced garbage 
> (SciFi Buzz), infomercials for overpriced SciFi merchandise, or repeats of 
> really bad 60s and 70s TV series (Incredible Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Earth 2, 
> Incredible Hulk, The New Dark Shadows, Incredible Hulk, Lost in Space, 
> Incredible Hulk).  It is nowhere near as cool as I hoped it would be, but its 
> better than nothing.

I've heard it said that was the case.  I'd still like it, though.  As you 
sad, it's better than nothing.


> I wish _I_ had T4 already.

I wish _I_ had bought 20 or 30 copies of T4 at Gen-Con.  I could be 
mailing those babies out at cost via overnight mail, then I'd have more 
people to discuss T4 with! :)

Honestly, I'm waiting for everyone to get T4 almost as anxiously as the 
people who don't have it yet. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 20:15:11 -0500
Subject: Change in List Addresses

On 08/14/96 at 10:13 AM,  owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM said:

>From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
                             -------------
                             
>To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
>Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #321
>Reply-To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
           --------------------
           
>Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM

Rob,

The addresses of all the lists seem to have changed a little.  I'm mailing
this to both @ns.mpgn.com and @mpgn.com, just to see if it gets through
with both addresses.

It's possible that the people reporting that they aren't getting mail or
digests are having a problem with the address change.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 20:15:11 -0500
Subject: Change in List Addresses

On 08/14/96 at 10:13 AM,  owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM said:

>From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
                             -------------
                             
>To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
>Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #321
>Reply-To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
           --------------------
           
>Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM

Rob,

The addresses of all the lists seem to have changed a little.  I'm mailing
this to both @ns.mpgn.com and @mpgn.com, just to see if it gets through
with both addresses.

It's possible that the people reporting that they aren't getting mail or
digests are having a problem with the address change.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:49:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Change in List Addresses

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/14/96 at 10:13 AM,  owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM said:
> 
> >From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
>                              -------------
>                              
> >To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
> >Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #321
> >Reply-To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
>            --------------------
>            
> >Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
> 
> Rob,
> 
> The addresses of all the lists seem to have changed a little.  I'm mailing
> this to both @ns.mpgn.com and @mpgn.com, just to see if it gets through
> with both addresses.
> 
> It's possible that the people reporting that they aren't getting mail or
> digests are having a problem with the address change.

Hmmm.  Every message I've sent to xboat over the last couple of days has 
been bounced back to me from some anonymous remailing service, when it 
was sent only to xboat.  Either someone is forwarding my stuff there and 
disguising it to look like I'm the one doing it, or something is screwy 
with the xboat list that is causing it.

Has anyone else had the anonymous remailing bounces inexplicably pop up 
lately, or am I the only one?

And if someone is doing it purposely, I wish they'd stop.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:49:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Change in List Addresses

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/14/96 at 10:13 AM,  owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM said:
> 
> >From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
>                              -------------
>                              
> >To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
> >Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #321
> >Reply-To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
>            --------------------
>            
> >Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
> 
> Rob,
> 
> The addresses of all the lists seem to have changed a little.  I'm mailing
> this to both @ns.mpgn.com and @mpgn.com, just to see if it gets through
> with both addresses.
> 
> It's possible that the people reporting that they aren't getting mail or
> digests are having a problem with the address change.

Hmmm.  Every message I've sent to xboat over the last couple of days has 
been bounced back to me from some anonymous remailing service, when it 
was sent only to xboat.  Either someone is forwarding my stuff there and 
disguising it to look like I'm the one doing it, or something is screwy 
with the xboat list that is causing it.

Has anyone else had the anonymous remailing bounces inexplicably pop up 
lately, or am I the only one?

And if someone is doing it purposely, I wish they'd stop.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:54:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Harold D. Hale wrote:

> Here is the errata/potential errata I've found so far:
> 
> Step 2, the text directs you to "select a hull from the table on the next
> page".  The actual chart it is refering to is on page 107, which is 15
> pages later.

It looks like they took Wildstar's text, moved the tables to the end of 
the chapter, and left the textual references to them the same.


> Step 3, the text says, "on the following table, cross-index the jump level
> desired with the size of hull".  There is no such table, not below nor
> anywhere else in the book, making it impossible to design jump capable
> ships.

This is a serious problem.  I'm sure Wildstar will be delighted to hear 
about it. [sigh]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 21:01:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: Combat

I've run a few test combats under the T4 system, and I have some 
questions.  Hopefully someone can help me out.

The highest damage weapon does 7 dice, and it is the laser rifle. More 
common in my campaign would be something like the Pistol, cP003, which 
has a damage of 5 dice.

Looking at the armors available, it seems like the most common one is 
Flex, which offers 5 dice of flexible armor protection.

Under the combat rules, the number of dice of armor is subtracted from 
the number of damage dice before the roll is made.  So, if you had a 
weapon that did 3 dice of damage, and you scored a hit on a target with 
armor of 2, you'd just roll one die.  If the armor is rigid, that is.  If 
it is flexible, you still roll only one die, but you get one point of 
damage per die of damage that the armor affects.  In this case, the 
damage would be 1D+2.

Fine and dandy.

The problem comes in when you take what appears to be a common weapon 
(the aforementioned pistol) and what appears to be a common armor type 
(Flex), and they both have ratings of 5.  Combat between similarly 
equipped characters boils down to whoever scores a hit does an automatic 
5 points of damage (one point per die of damage, all of which were 
affected by the armor, which was flexible).  Not very exciting in my 
opinion. The only variable becomes the to-hit task roll.

Am I thinking of this wrong?  Perhaps pistols and Flex armor aren't 
supposed to be very common in the Imperium?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:01:44 -0400
Subject: T4

This message was originally sent Sunday night, but bounced:

Just got back from two days at Gen-Con. The Imperium Games booth was
crowded every time I went there, and Traveller books were selling
very well. I have not yet read my copy, but I like what I saw on the
initial flip-through.

Joe Says regarding T4:
> I just wish it'd been error-free.  Oh, well.

There is a saying in the printing business:

"Your tombstone will have a typo on it."

I know what IG is going through -- I lived it for 20 years (that is, I
have permanent scar tissue on my forehead from beating my head
against the wall while chanting "How the hell did _all_ of us
 miss _that_?".

Please go easy on them...what they are doing is not easy.

Loren

PS: To the TMLers who met me at the con: If I seemed a little distracted, I
apologize: I was operating off 3 hours sleep saturday.

 LKW


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 21:10:56 -0500
Subject: T4: EDU and Grad school

On 08/14/96 at 07:10 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Okay, and if you do that then you're either going to need lots o' six 
>siders for skill rolls...

That's the problem. <G>

>, various dice (ie, simple = 2D4, Average=2D6, Difficult=2D8,
>Formidable=2D10, etc...

Which I *would* like to avoid!

>...or you could divide the Skill Asset by a value for each
>difficulty level, such as:

>Task Level    Divide By

>Simple           1
>Routine          2
>Difficult        3
>...etc. (or something like that...this is off the top of my head.)

Yes, I've thought of that too.  The only way that would work would be to
pre-generate as much as possible. 

Another idea I've toyed with is not having 0 Skill levels.  Default skills
are .5 Skill levels:  Attribute of 8 - Skill.5=4, Skill1=8, Skill2=16, etc. 
The problem is how fast the numbers escalate.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 21:37:20 -0500
Subject: Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)

On 08/14/96 at 04:20 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@qrc.com> said:

>    I still don't see the need for a split! 

Me neither.

Hey, where is the 2300AD list anyway?

>Except for one or two narrowminded blockheads on the XTML list
>who've publicly admitted they'll soil their pants if a combined list
>exposes them to even a single TNE subject message...

Stop it, before I soil mine! <g>

> most of us realize this isn't a religion. 

What?  It's not?  We already have all that Canon stuff floating around,
don't we?  

I can just see it now...The Religion of Traveller, Saint Mark, High Priest
Ken, us all being cast out of the garden of GDW, but after trials and
tribulations ascending into the City of Imperium Games. <gd&r>

> Perhaps instead of having a CT/MT and a TNE list, as we do now, we
>can have an Ideas discussion list (campaign/adventure ideas) and a Rules
>discussion list? 

That's not a bad idea, but ideas will keep crossing back and forth between
rules and discussion anyway.  

>        And I've got some bad news for those people, too: You still
>haven't gotten your beloved CT setting back. T4 is 1100 years in the past.
>The ships look different, the Spinward Marches are terra incognito, and
>everything you cling to as your gospel hasn't happened.

There's that religion again!  <g> 

Folks have mentioned ships looking different several times already. What's
so different?  Are the new ships like the pictures on IG's webpage? 
Besides, ships look like whoever designs them says they look like.  If you
want ships to look like CT ships, then design ships that look like
that..and draw your own pictures. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:38:33 GMT
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

On Aug 14, 1996 11:13:53, 'FarFuture@aol.com' wrote: 
 
>Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say? 
>What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is
its 
>name? 
 
I'll have to think a bit on the other provisions, but the last one 
struck me right away: 
 
The whole point of the "Third Imperium" is to capitalize 
on the legitimacy of the First and Second. It makes a 
point of _not_ claiming to be new, but of being the  
heir to past glories (and past territories). It's proclaiming  
document will be an official-ese way of saying 
"We're back." 
 
The Imperial Charter is the "Warrant of Restoration." 
 
 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 00:26:29 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)

As the author of the "Quick Ship Design System", I feel I should
respond to this.  First of all, I _haven't_ seen the book as published,
so I don't have a complete set of errata; at the present time, I'm
just responding to reports as they come in from people who do have
the book.  I'll have a complete set of errata (and maybe enhancements) a few
weeks after I recieve the book.

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com> wrote:
> Step 2, the text directs you to "select a hull from the table on the next
> page".  The actual chart it is refering to is on page 107, which is 15
> pages later.

I understand the tables and text were severely (and non-optimally)
re-arranged in order to squeeze the ship design system into the book.
Originally, the basic rulebook was _not_ going to have any type of starship
design system at all.  Since it was a late addition, QSDS had to fit into
the available space, and usability suffered a bit as a result.

> Step 3, the text says, "on the following table, cross-index the jump level
> desired with the size of hull".  There is no such table, not below nor
> anywhere else in the book, making it impossible to design jump capable
> ships.

Maybe it got lost in the shuffle, or else it is hiding in a non-obvious
place.  It should be labelled "Jump Drive Potential Table", and look like
this:

Jump Drive Potential

Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
Hull
100	2	3	4	5	6	7
200	4	6	8	10	12	14
300	6	9	12	15	18	21
400	8	12	16	20	24	28
500	10	15	20	25	30	35
600	12	18	24	30	36	42
700	14	21	28	35	42	49
800	16	24	32	40	48	56
900	18	27	36	45	54	63
1000	20	30	40	50	60	70
2000	40	60	80	100	120	140
3000	60	90	120	150	180	210
4000	80	120	160	200	240	280
5000	100	150	200	250	300	350
						
"Jump" is the jump number desired; "Hull" is the total hull displacement, in
standard tons.  The number in the body of the table is the size of the drive
required (also in standard tons).

Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
Fuel	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%

The above table gives the jump fuel requirement, as a percentage of the
total ship volume, by jump number.

Jump Drive Technology
TL	9	11	12	13	14	15
Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6

In case it is also missing, here is the jump drive technology table.  It
gives the maximum jump capacity by tech level.

> Step 6, the text indicates that missile launchers "do not have to be
> crewed when operating as part of a missile battery under the control of
> a master fire director", but in Step 9 the text indicates that "one gunner is
> required for each weapon, sandcaster and nuclear damper battery
> installed".

What it's saying is that the _launcher_ (that is, the weapon mount that
actually fires the missiles) doesn't need any crewmembers.  BUT, the weapon
_battery_ that the mount is a part of _does_.  That crewperson sits at a
workstation connected to the battery's Master Fire Director, and runs the
whole battery (in this case, fires the missiles, and directs them to their
target).

The original crew rule (which, I assume, became a part of Step 9), was:

  "Gunnery Crew:  One gunner is required for each battery installed. One gunner
  is also required for each sandcaster and damper turret installed.  Each
  gunner requires a workstation."

> For missile batteries, is this gunner in addition to the one
> required for the MFD?  The two statements seem to contradict each
> other.

No.  The manning requirements are per _battery_ (MFD), not
per _mount_ (launcher).

So what's the distinction between a battery and a mount?  A mount is the
physical weapon installed on the ship.  A battery is a group of one or more
weapons mounts that are controlled from a central location.  The gizmo that
does this controlling is a Master Fire Director.

In the QSDS, you generally buy weapons systems by the _battery_, and not the
mount.  A Military Laser Battery may be several weapons mounts, and the
Master Fire Director that controls them.  No matter how many mounts in the
battery, you only need one crewmember to run it.  A Civilian Laser Battery
doesn't have a Master Fire Director, and so it is a one-mount "battery" that
is fired under local control.

An exception to this is missile launchers.  You buy the launchers by the
mount, and then install as many Master Fire Directors as you think you need
to run the missiles, and it's those directors that need crew.  The other
exceptions are sandcasters and damper turrets, neither of which are grouped
into batteries at all (and both of which require one crewmember per mount).

One item that the QSDS rules don't mention: local control.  All of the
weapons batteries are capable of local control.  If the Master Fire Director
is knocked out, turrets from the damaged battery can fire under local
control, if a workstation was provided and is crewed.  For this reason,
military ships _may_ want to install extra gunner workstations and allocate
spare gunnery crew.

> No where have I been able to find any mention of the *cost* or
> *displacement* of spare missiles, which presumably you will need after you
> shoot off the ready missiles provided in the turret or barbette

Missiles displace a half of a displacement ton (seven cubic meters) and are
pretty darn heavy, too.   The cost of the missile depends on what _kind_ it
is (both the guidance system and the warhead will vary the cost of the
missile greatly).  These should be covered somewhere else in the book (like
the equipment section)?

For all intents and purposes, missile turrets aren't reloadable in combat (if
you want to keep track of it, it takes about an hour for a team of two to
reload a single missile - and only one team can work on a single turret or
barbette at a time).  There isn't an official auto-loader for missile
turrets at this time, but I'm hoping to get one added during the FF&S II
discussions.

> Step 7, Small Craft External Grapples are described, Small Craft Hangars
> and Launch Ports (table for which is on page 112) are not.

A hangar is a hangar, y'know.  A place to keep your small craft, kind of
like a garage.  Minimal hangars don't provide space for working on the
craft; there's no room to work.  Standard hangars are like most people's
garages, and there's room enough to get around the craft and do
maintainance.

A launch port is the hole in the side of the hull that you use to get in and
out of the hangar.  Sort of like a garage door, come to think of it.

> Fuel Purification Plants are mentioned on page 89, but not in Step 7, which
> is presumably the section they belong in (the table for them appears on
> page 111).  Ditto Shops and Labs, which rates a chart on page 111, but
> no explanatory text beyond what is on the chart and a brief mention of
> Sickbays in Step 9.

I didn't really provide any explanatory text for any of these items.  The
shops, labs, and sickbays were controversial, so there weren't (and aren't)
any rules for their use.  My own rule of thumb is that the shops, labs, and
sickbays are "units" suitable for a single senior person and their
assistants.  If you have two researchers to support, install two labs; if
you have six fighter maintaiance teams, install six shops.

Fuel purificaion plants turn raw fuel (scooped from gas giants, or water
collected from any number of sources) into pure liquid hydrogen suitable for
the ship's power plant and fusion reactor (both of which are very
tempermental when it comes to impurities in their fuel - referees should
feel free to increase the changes of a breakdown or misjump when a ship is
running from raw fuel, either because there is no purifier, or because it's
broken).

> Step 10, the text indicates you should, "multiply the number of crew
> members that need workstations by the workstation characteristic
> above".  One big problem: there is no characteristic above.  The chart
> you need is actually located on page 112.

Not my fault.  IG moved things around to get them to fit (on the other hand,
IG _should_ have fixed up the text to reflect where they moved things TO).

> The Standard Military Controls table on page 105 indicates that the crew 
> requirements for such controls is 0.0 at all tech levels.  Given that the
> Standard  Civilian Controls table on the same page gives some number
> from 1 to 3, it appears that the crew numbers for SMCs are incorrect.

I believe the controls (both civilian and military) do not require any crew.
The tables I submitted to Imperium Games included a crew column on both,
which was a uniformly zero; I suggedted that IG eliminate the column in
editing.

> while the Standard Hull Configurations chart does go up to
> 5000 tons, there is very few options in the configurations you have to
> choose from (at 3000, 4000, and 5000 tons there is only one type). 

That's mainly due to space limitations.  For the same reason, the table
published in the book only concerns itself with TL-10 hulls.  There is a BIG
table of hulls on my Web site, which presents every hull in every size
(100-1000 by 100's, and 1000-5000 by 1000's) and every configuration for
each of the significant tech level steps from 9 to 14.  You can download and
print it if you'd like; expect to print 56 pages of hull tables.  The
address is:  http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

This address is also the QSDS support site; assuming that I get permission
from Imperium Games, errata and re-formatted and otherwise-improved versions
of QSDS will appear here, as well as a design archive (all this pending IG
approval, of course).

> Also, the minimum size hull is 100 tons displacement.  This means you
> can forget designing your own small craft, fighters or jump shuttles for
> now.

Yes ... again, was a question of space and time.  Even if space were
available, a small craft system would have challenged some of the
simplifying assumptions that I made when designing QSDS.  As it was, I
barely finished the system in time to be included in the book; attempting to
make it handle small craft as well would quite possibly made it miss.

You _will_ be able to do small craft; I believe Dave Goldens
only-slightly-more-complex Standard Ship Design System (SSDS) will allow you
to do that.  SSDS is slated to appear in the Starships suppliemnt (right,
Dave?).

> [It] is probably the most  poorly laid out of any of the four attempts (CT,
> High Guard, MT, TNE) to present a ship design system in Traveller.

Remember, T:TNE _didn't_ have a ship design system in the main rulebook.  T4
was almost the same; and most of the layout problems can be attributed to
squeezing QSDS into the available space.

> Were I to use this system on a regular basis, I
> would end up photocopying the entire section and redoing the layout so
> that it was in a more logical sequence.

Again, pending the permission of IG, you'll be able to download a
much-better-organized version of the system from my Web site.

> If someone at IG would like to respond to what I've found so far,
> I'm sure everyone would like to hear it.

Remember, I don't work (or speak) for IG; I just wrote the system ...


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #323
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 15 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 324

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. 5,000 ton Far Cruiser on the WWW
         2. Re: Gen Con
         3. re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         4. Re: Starship Troopers (the game)
         5. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         6. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         7. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         8. Re: T4: Task system?
         9. Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply
        10. The SciFi Channel -Reply
        11. T4 Character sheet
        12. RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills
        13. Re: Change in List Addresses
        14. Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply
        15. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        16. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:34:23 -0700
Subject: 5,000 ton Far Cruiser on the WWW

I just completed the Defender a 5,000 ton Far Cruiser and it is now
available on my Traveller web pages, The Draconis Cluster.  The URL for the
Defender is "http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/farcru.htm" and the URL for the
Draconis Cluster is "http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm".  The Defender
is complete with an illustration, deck plans and statistics that are
compatable, I hope, with T4.  Please check it out and let what you think
about it; likes, dislikes or just general comments.  Also if you can't
access the web or have trouble with my web pages let me know and I'll see
what can be done to get copies to you.
Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:00:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Gen Con

On 14 Aug 96 at 16:12, Peter  H. Brenton spewed:

> I loved Crazy Igors, where I spent over $100 on
> such gems as; Starship Troopers board game, JOTAS's (about 5, 3 of which
> were bests of) a few Megatraveller 15mm deck plans (which were expensive;
> like $12.00), A Judges Guild adventure, and a few other choice items.  
> I saw Hivers & Ithkur, flipped thru it, put it back, unimpressed.  I saw
> Striker 2, flipped through it, added up what I already wanted, put it back
> (with a small sob). 
> 
> 
> I saw only 1 Megatraveller Journal (the one I have) how many were put out?

4 total, before DGP stopped their Traveller support...

> Dave Golden picked up a mint copy of Mayday only to find that it was
> missing the rules book.

Dave...  I have 2 copies of Mayday...  if you need a copy of the 
rules, I could photocopy for you...

> Other Booths I liked; RAFM which had only a few Traveller minatures left
> (and I had no money by then anyway) , Chainmail Fashions (for the
> salespersons), Wizards of the Coast (whose CCG Netrunner has possible
> Traveller applications), The many Dice vendors (I picked up hit
> location, crit, and 3-sided dice.  

> I met Kevin Knight (they were selling the Traveller Chronicle at the IG
> booth), Harold Hale, I saw Joe Walsh & Family (but didn't introduce myself
> since he was deep into a game, and of course, Dave Golden (Thanks again for 
> the great Starship Combat sessions Dave!).

> Did anyone see Loren Wiseman, he is the only one of the Traveller people I
> would have liked to meet but didn't.

Neat post, Pete...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:16:45 +0000
Subject: re: The Imperial Establishing Document

>What other provisions would it have?

Suggestion 1: "No subject dominion shall deny any Imperial citizen within
its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."  As a kind of loophole,
this does not apply to the empire itself.  So Regina can not arbitrarily
deny Morans or Ebokins of whatever rights Reginans have, but the Imperium can.

Suggestion 2: According to Survival Margin, Cleon said "Any sentient life
form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected
being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium."  There you have a definition of
citizenship and some kind of vague protection for sentients all in one
sentence (and from a canon source to boot).  One of these protections, found
in the High Justice article in JTAS 14, is that the capture, transportation,
and possession of slaves is prohibited.


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (the game)

Thus spake Loren K. Wiseman (or someone with the same initials) 
at <gdw.support@genie.com>:

> Subject: Starship Troopers
> 
> Hmmm...this is a new record...we are trashing a movie more than a year
> before it comes out.

>  Anyone remember the Avalon Hill boardgame Starship Troopers?

Remember it?  Hell, I still have it.  It was the first wargame/boardgame 
that I ever bought (or had given to me).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:58:35 -0800
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

On 14 Aug 96 at 11:13, FarFuture@aol.com doth proclaim:

> The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
> of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
> the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions.

In terms of flowery preambles, I would suggest that any preamble for 
the initial written act of the Imperium is going to draw heavily on 
the at that time mainly legendary history of the 1st & particularly 2nd Empires... 
 If I recall earlier writings on the subject... Cleon and family even 
drew back a rather tenuous line of succession to 1 of the last 
Emperors of the Rule of Man...so they will want to create this myth 
with the 1st proclamation...  They might spend as much verbage on this 
portion of the document as that which follows it...

> 1. It established the Empire, which is defined as governmental unit ruled by
> an Emperor over subordinate governments such as principalities, baronies,
> kingdoms, etc.

Concept of nobility, loyalty to higher nobles, and loyalty by 
nobility to their subjects...  Nobility Obligates...  

Advancement through service to higher cause and higher authority, 
would be a great central theme...

> 2. The Empire rules the spaces between the worlds; worlds retain their own
> sovereignty, but declare allegiance to the Empire.

A few thoughts.  Would Cleon have touched on the following issues in 
this document:  

Imperial Rules of War (an obvious exception to the 
space between the worlds limits on sovereignty...)

Exceptions to local sovereignty, and establishment of an outline for 
enforcement mechanisms:  Armed Forces, Ministry of Justice, etc...

What defines an Imperial Citizen for purposes of 
protection under Imperial law...

> 3. Free trade.

Establishment of the Ministry of Trade & OCC to ensure compliance 
with these principles???

Creation of the concept of Imperial Charters...

Sales pitch on the benefits of an enlightened free trade policy for all...

> 4. Adoption of the Imperial calendar.
> 
> 5. A hereditary emperor.

I'm sure that the nomination of Cleon by the Moot will be played up 
to again help generate the creation myth...

> 6. A legislative body for the purposes of advise and consent to imperial
> actions the Moot. Membership is open to all nobles of the Imperium. A
> relatively weak body.

I've always viewed the Moot as kind of an interstellar UN, an 
ineffectual debating society.  The whole was not as powerful as the 
sum of its parts...  The power of smaller groups of high ranking nobles are 
in the final analysis, more important than those of the Moot...  If 
you think about it, the few times when the Moot might have actually 
been able to exercise its authority most, if it were effective, were the times 
when it didn't work...  The Civil War & The Rebellion...  

Even in the times of the Barracks Emperors, it wasn't really all that effective.  
Over half of the Barracks Emperors crowned themselves Emperor.  For 
those who were approved by the Moot, this approval added little 
or no legitimacy to their claim, and since they got their necks 
chopped anyways, the Moot seal of approval wound up being 
meaningless...  This didn't really stop until after Arbellatra 
decided not to crown herself Empress, acted as de facto regent until 
such time as it was obvious to the Moot that anybody with even 
remotely legitimate claim to the throne was DEAD, so they crowned her 
Empress instead... 

Yes, I know, the Moot got rid of Cleon the Mad, but this is really 
Cassius & Brutus ridding the world of Caesar...  It wasn't the Moot 
as an organ nearly as much as it was a group of nobles (archdukes?) 
who saw it to be in the best interest of the Imperium to let Cleon fall 
on a knife 40 times...

The Moot's biggest power might be withholding approval of an act of 
an Emperor, or the nomination of an Emperor or noble...  If Imperial 
history is any barometer...  Approval of the Moot didn't mean 
anything in cases where there was more than 1 claimant to the 
throne...

> Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?

A few sections that might be worthwhile additions to the initial 
document:  

Symbology (Imperial Sun Banner)

Responsibilities by member worlds to the Imperium...

> What other provisions would it have. 

It would definitely not have provisions for succession in cases where 
there was no issue...  Most periods of turmoil in Imperial history 
were the result of situations where there was no direct heir to the 
throne...   

>What would be the loopholes? 

I think the role of the Archdukes should be left very ambiguous...  
They were probably the 1 truly effective check on an overambitious 
Emperor, at least prior to the Civil War, when the offices were 
dissolved...  They clearly have powers over their particular domains that 
would almost rival the Emperor.  Don't underestimate their power.  The 
Archdukes removed Cleon II...  They murdered Cleon the Mad (establishing 
the right of assassination as a means of ascending the throne, and they 
started/spread the Civil War, finally, Strephon cut his own throat by 
recreating the Archducal Domains, and 1 of his Archdukes thanked him 
for it by pumping his clone full of bullets...  While the Moot might 
steal a lot of the publicity for being a legislative/advising body to 
the Emperor, the real "Powers behind the Throne" are the archdukes in 
the early days...in fact I suspect that the original archdukes might 
be the partners in Cleon's group of  conglomerates...

>What is its name?

I think an ideal document would have a preamble which traces the 
legitimacy of the Zhunastu name, in some way, back to the Rule of 
Man...even if it is pure myth (which it will most likely be...)

Therefore my idea of a name for this document is:

Proclamation of the Restoration of the Grand Imperium of the Stars 
and the Rule of Man

...better known as the Restoration Proclamation, or the Act of Year 
Zero... for short...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Thus spake Marc Miller <FarFuture@aol.com>:

"Behold:  I give you... the superman..."

No, some guy named Zarathustra said that.  What MM said was:

[snip]

> Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?
> What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is its
> name?

Less than 1000 words?  I've got two:  Good Luck...
 
> Discussion?

Well, judging from the law-types I've seen de-lurk from time to time, I'd 
almost bet you a dime that you'll get something resembling a polished 
document that'll look a lot like the Real Thing would.  Nice hook, BTW.  
I'm sure that someone will bite, even if it isn't me.

(can anyone guess what audience this followup was REALLY meant for...?)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Thus spake Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>:

> On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

[snip]
 
> > Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?
> > What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is
> > its name?
> 
> Loopholes: incompetent Emperors should be oustable under law, but this
> should not be readily apparant.

I suspect that it'll be precedent, rather than any explicit declaration 
in the constitution, that governs this.  Remember the Right of 
Assassination, and how it worked during one time, but failed miserably 
another?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:33:11 PST
Subject: Re: T4: Task system?

In mail you write:

> Seriously, we need probability tables for 1.5d6, 2.5d6, and 3.5d6. I've
> done this sort of thing for 2, 3, and 4d6 using brute force, but *is* there
> a way to figure probabilities for each number in some easier manner?

Sure. Here's a quick & dirty QBASIC program I threw together to
generate them (note that I started with 3.5, and commented out loops to
get the lesser results)

DIM roll(25)
'FOR a = 1 TO 6
  'FOR b = 1 TO 6
    FOR c = 1 TO 6
      FOR d = 1 TO 3
        roll(a + b + c + d) = roll(a + b + c + d) + 1
      NEXT d
    NEXT c
  'NEXT b
'NEXT a

FOR a = 1 TO 25
  sum = sum + roll(a)
NEXT a

OPEN "1.5" FOR OUTPUT AS 1
FOR a = 1 TO 25
  IF roll(a) > 0 THEN PRINT #1, a, roll(a), roll(a) / sum
NEXT a
CLOSE

And now for the results:

1.5 dice
 2             1             .0555555 
 3             2             .1111111 
 4             3             .1666667 
 5             3             .1666667 
 6             3             .1666667 
 7             3             .1666667 
 8             2             .1111111 
 9             1             .0555555 

2.5 dice
 3             1             .00925925
 4             3             .0277777
 5             6             .0555555
 6             9             .0833333
 7             12            .1111111 
 8             15            .1388889 
 9             16            .1481481 
 10            15            .1388889 
 11            12            .1111111 
 12            9             .0833333
 13            6             .0555555
 14            3             .0277777
 15            1             .00925925

3.5 dice
 4             1             .00154321
 5             4             .00617284
 6             10            .0154321 
 7             19            .02932099
 8             31            .04783951
 9             46            .07098766
 10            61            .09413581
 11            73            .1126543 
 12            79            .1219136 
 13            79            .1219136 
 14            73            .1126543 
 15            61            .09413581
 16            46            .07098766
 17            31            .04783951
 18            19            .02932099
 19            10            .0154321 
 20            4             .00617284
 21            1             .00154321

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:07:37 PST
Subject: Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply

In mail you write:

>> Which version of the book did you read? The original, or the revised
>> edition that came out a few years back? The "revisions consisted of
>> removing a bunch of ham-handed editing by the original publisher,
>> and restoring a few cuts. I personally like the "revised" version
>> better.  The feel is a bit different (*better*) without the stupid
>> changes, and the added scenes are most definitely *exactly* what
>> you'd expect to happen give such a situation (the major one
>> invovling what they use as entertainment in the "occupied" areas.)

> Most likely it was the original. I still have it; it's an old Signet
> paperback. I didn't know there was a newer, revised version.

Yep. It came out a few years back. 

> Was it revised by Heinlein, or was it published posthumously?

Both! Heinlein's contract with the publisher of that and several other
books wouldn't *let* a revised version be published while he was alive.
So he wrote up the revisions, and handed them to his wife to be
published once he was dead (at which point all rights in the books
reverted back to his estate).

There's also a revised version of "Red Planet". And the current version
of "Podkayne of Mars has *both* the original ending and the one the
publisher made him change it to (in the original Poddy *doesn't*
survive!). The readers get to vote as to which ending will be used in
all future editions.

And of course, there's the revised edition of Stranger in a Strange
Land. They wanted him to shorten it, and the only way to do it
withoutleaving gaping holes was to trim a sentence here, a word there,
rephrase this, etc. He was *not* cutting "fluff"! I'd say you should at
least *read* the new edition, preferrably with the old one handy.
You'll be reading along and suddenly go "wait a sec". Then you have to
compare the two to find the *tiny* change. :-)

Still, there were a few scenes that were trimmed a bit and the longer,
more detailed version does explain things better (like *why* Ben Caxton
left in such a hurry)

> Tell you what, I'm sure enjoying the reruns of "V" on the Sci-Fi channel!
> Much better than "Independence Day," IMHO.

Only as long as you ignore the reason *why* they want to take over.
Steal our water? *Why*? There's more water than anybody can possibly us
out in the rings of Saturn, and it's much easier to get.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:16:53 -0400
Subject: The SciFi Channel -Reply

>As for the SciFi channel, for every hour of something good (V, extended
>version  of Dune, The Prisoner) you get two or three hours of
>poorly-produced garbage  (SciFi Buzz), infomercials for overpriced SciFi
>merchandise, or repeats of  really bad 60s and 70s TV series (Incredible
>Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Earth 2,  Incredible Hulk, The New Dark Shadows,
>Incredible Hulk, Lost in Space,  Incredible Hulk).  It is nowhere near as
>cool as I hoped it would be, but its  better than nothing.

>Steve Charlton scharlto@avalon.com scharlto@rtd.com
>Did I mention SciFi Channel shows Incredible Hulk a lot?

Hey, I *like* the Incredible Hulk! I wonder what *his* UPP would be
(FFF000)?

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:37:34 -0500
Subject: T4 Character sheet

If there is sufficient demand, I would be pleased to whip up a new T4
character sheet (to specs determined by lengthy and reasoned debate on this
here mailing list) and save it in a variety of formats for all to use.
Depending on the programs involved, some verisons could be editable on
computer, while others would have to remain paper printings.

Let me knwo if interested, and what changes you'd make.


Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net



------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:47:36 -0500
Subject: RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills

Eris,

Without going further into the matter (as i am not arguing either side of
the issue here), there is one thing you may not have considered under
either an attribute or skill-based system in your astrogation example.

After 12 years' experience you are _certainly_ much, much more than 30 per
cent better than when you first stepped onto the bridge of a vessel, as it
is highly unlikely that Astrogation is a default skill.  Thus, you
previously had _no_ chance whatsoever to improve.  [grin]

And then there are physical skills:  I may have been honing my basketball
expertise for 12 years now (I haven't), but I am still just 5'10 with
pretty unimpressive hand-eye co-ordination.  30 per cent would be
meaningful in relation to my overall ability to hit a shot, but would
likely not impress some kid, 6'6 and jumps like Michael Jordan, who has
only being playing for a year.

I make absolutely no claims as to the relevancy of this last statement...  [g]


Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

...definitely NOT like Mike!



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:42:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Change in List Addresses

On Aug 14, 1996 20:49:31, 'Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>' wrote: 
 
>> The addresses of all the lists seem to have changed a little.  I'm
mailing 
>> this to both @ns.mpgn.com and @mpgn.com, just to see if it gets through 
>> with both addresses. 
>>  
>> It's possible that the people reporting that they aren't getting mail or

>> digests are having a problem with the address change. 
 
>Hmmm.  Every message I've sent to xboat over the last couple of days has  
>been bounced back to me from some anonymous remailing service, when it  
>was sent only to xboat.  Either someone is forwarding my stuff there and  
>disguising it to look like I'm the one doing it, or something is screwy  
>with the xboat list that is causing it. 
 
>Has anyone else had the anonymous remailing bounces inexplicably pop up  
>lately, or am I the only one? 
 
2x hmmmm... I wonder if this is related to the net.creeps who 
were using anonymous remailers to forge subscriptions to mailing 
lists through mail-to-news gateways, and thus bombing my favorite 
newsgroup.  They apparently never found the TML or Xboat, and I 
warned Rob that such an attempt might be made in the future. 
 
>And if someone is doing it purposely, I wish they'd stop.   
 
If what you're experiencing is related to that, (a) they're doing 
it purposefully, but incompetently, and (b) they're not reading 
this list. 
 
 
                        --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 06:46:06 -0800
Subject: Re: The Puppet Masters (was Re: Starship Troopers) -Reply

On 15 Aug 96 at 0:07, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> Only as long as you ignore the reason *why* they want to take over.
> Steal our water? *Why*? There's more water than anybody can possibly us
> out in the rings of Saturn, and it's much easier to get.

Remember that the real reason they were there was to eat us...IIRC...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: William A Humphrey <wh2a+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:26:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Excerpts from Traveller: 14-Aug-96 Re: The Imperial Establishi.. by Tom
Ellis@telerama.lm.co 
> On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> > What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes?
What is its
> > name?
> 
> Loopholes: incompetent Emperors should be oustable under law, but this
> should not be readily apparant.
 
Actually, there should be no provision for ousting emperors.  For one,
this document, which is necessarily public, is going to get more
scrutiny than any other document of its era.  Many people would have an
interest in ousting Cleon or any other emperor.  You have to project the
image that the emperor is benign, upstanding, comes from the right
bloodline, and is invincible.  Secondly, Cleon the Mad's cabinet
supposedly had to debate long and hard about whether and how to get rid
of him and get away with it.  Porfiria drew the short straw and got to
take the big risk of assasinating him (IIRC, she shot him as he entered
the cabinet chambers).  Because the Moot was as glad to be rid of him as
the cabinet, she was crowned empress for her crime, rather than being
hanged.  This action established the only known precedent for
non-voluntary succession, the Right of Assasination.  Until Cleon the
Mad, the emperor had to die or abdicate for a change in leadership. 
Fortunately for the Third Imperium, that Right remained unexercised for
several centuries thereafter.  Unfortunately, it also directly led (will
lead?) to its end.

Excerpts from Traveller: 14-Aug-96 Re: The Imperial Establishi.. by
"Stuart L. Dollar"@goodn 
> Therefore my idea of a name for this document is:
> 
> Proclamation of the Restoration of the Grand Imperium of the Stars 
> and the Rule of Man
> 
> ...better known as the Restoration Proclamation, or the Act of Year 
> Zero... for short...

Hear, Hear!  Great title, Stuart!
- --
                                            Bill H
"Only one...has survived battle with [us].  He is behind me; you are in 
front of me.  If you value your lives, be somewhere else!"
                                                    - Ambassador Delenn 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:04:03 -0800
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

On 15 Aug 96 at 10:26, William A Humphrey spewed:

> Actually, there should be no provision for ousting emperors.  For one,
> this document, which is necessarily public, is going to get more
> scrutiny than any other document of its era.  Many people would have an
> interest in ousting Cleon or any other emperor.  You have to project the

Heck, most people aren't going to have an interest in joining the 
Imperium, certainly not the current ruling bodies of the pocket 
empires, anyways...

> image that the emperor is benign, upstanding, comes from the right
> bloodline, and is invincible.  Secondly, Cleon the Mad's cabinet
> supposedly had to debate long and hard about whether and how to get rid
> of him and get away with it.  Porfiria drew the short straw and got to
> take the big risk of assasinating him (IIRC, she shot him as he entered
> the cabinet chambers).  Because the Moot was as glad to be rid of him as
> the cabinet, she was crowned empress for her crime, rather than being
> hanged.  This action established the only known precedent for
> non-voluntary succession, the Right of Assasination.  Until Cleon the
> Mad, the emperor had to die or abdicate for a change in leadership. 
> Fortunately for the Third Imperium, that Right remained unexercised for
> several centuries thereafter.  Unfortunately, it also directly led (will
> lead?) to its end.

Time for a little logrolling.  As I stated before, there should definitely be no 
mention or provision for removal of a HEREDITARY emperor, competent 
or not...  Certainly, Cleon is not going to write a document that 
advocated the assumption of the throne by "right of Assassination" in 
such a document, which is the ONLY way in Imperial history that an 
Emperor/Empress was removed from office other than death by natural 
causes, or the occasional abdication...  He might as well paint a 
target on himself saying "Shoot me!"... 

Nice post, Bill...

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #324
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 15 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 325

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet
         2. Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet
         3. Re: T4 Character sheet
         4. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique
         5. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         6. Progressive Difficulties
         7. Imperial Declaration
         8. Starship Travails
         9. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
        10. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
        11. Re: T4: Task system?
        12. RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills
        13. RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills -Reply
        14. Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:26:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Mike Basinger wrote:

> What information would people like to see on the GM screen. I have 
> started with the skill list. What other tables would be useful. [Note: I 
> have not gotten any permision to post a GM screen from IG yet.]
> 
Nononononono, I'm sick of screens which contain info that should be looked
up anyway 
(that didn't come out right...let me try again)
The screen should make combat, both shipboard and ground, quick and easy
to do.  Anything that would require going to the book in the middle of
combat is fair game *after* the basic charts of combat and steps to take
are listed.

Pete


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:08:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> The screen should make combat, both shipboard and ground, quick and easy
> to do.  Anything that would require going to the book in the middle of
> combat is fair game *after* the basic charts of combat and steps to take
> are listed.

Pete,

I agree with you.  Equipment lists, skill lists, etc. shouldn't be on the 
GM screen.  Penetration values and weapon damage is an iffy thing, 
though, because while the PC sheets should have this information already 
given on them, the NPC's (esp. on-the-spot ones) oftentimes won't.  

I'd like to see the task system table, the basic combat charts, encounter 
charts (spaceship and patron, not animal), and starship combat charts 
covered.  Hmmm.  Can't think of anything else right now.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:11:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Character sheet

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Ross Coburn wrote:

> If there is sufficient demand, I would be pleased to whip up a new T4
> character sheet (to specs determined by lengthy and reasoned debate on this
> here mailing list) and save it in a variety of formats for all to use.
> Depending on the programs involved, some verisons could be editable on
> computer, while others would have to remain paper printings.
> 
> Let me knwo if interested, and what changes you'd make.

I'll have to make some more characters before I know for sure, but the 
first three characters I've generated have surprised me by not needing 
space for more then the 17 skills the basic T4 chracter sheet allows 
for.  So, I'm not so sure my previous complaints about there not being 
enough room for skills were were well-founded.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:21:20 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique

Derek Wildstar writes:

>As the author of the "Quick Ship Design System", I feel I should
>respond to this.  

   And I appreciate your response, as does everyone here I'm sure.

>I understand the tables and text were severely (and non-optimally)
>re-arranged in order to squeeze the ship design system into the book.
>Originally, the basic rulebook was _not_ going to have any type of
>starship design system at all.  Since it was a late addition, QSDS had to
>fit into the available space, and usability suffered a bit as a result.

   I was afraid of something like that. <grrrr....>

>Maybe it got lost in the shuffle, or else it is hiding in a non-obvious
>place.

   It is MIA.  Thanks for the info--now I can finish that destroyer.

>In case it is also missing, here is the jump drive technology table.  It
>gives the maximum jump capacity by tech level.

   As a matter of fact it was also missing, still another piece of errata
I'm afraid.  Thanks for posting it.

>What it's saying is that the _launcher_ (that is, the weapon mount that
>actually fires the missiles) doesn't need any crewmembers.  BUT, the
>weapon _battery_ that the mount is a part of _does_.

   The problem is that missile launchers and laser weaponry are treated
differently in the book.  While laser weaponry is preorganized into
batteries (sometimes consisting of just one weapon), missile launchers
come in two types: turrets or barbettes.  There is no discussion of
organizing launchers into batteries, only how many missiles can be
controlled by a MFD.

   A clarification statement of some kind should handle the problem.

>No.  The manning requirements are per _battery_ (MFD), not
>per _mount_ (launcher).

   At higher tech levels, it is possible to have multiple missile turrets
organized into seperate batteries under a single MFD (this is generally
not an issue at TL 12 or below, because MFD control factors aren't 
usually high enough).  Thus, MFD and missile battery are not necessarily
synonymous, and thus the source of the confusion.

   Also--I've designed several ships using FF&S, so I'm familar with how
things work under that system.  What I'm attempting to do here is
approach things as though I know nothing about FF&S, and I'm picking
up T4 with no prior knowledge (just as a new player would).

>Missiles displace a half of a displacement ton (seven cubic meters) and
>are pretty darn heavy, too.   The cost of the missile depends on what
>_kind_ it is (both the guidance system and the warhead will vary the
>cost of the missile greatly).  These should be covered somewhere else
>in the book (like the equipment section)?

   Standard FF&S missiles displace 7 cubic meters and weigh 7 tons--
that fact is not stated in T4 however, though it certainly should be,
as should the time it takes to reload missile launchers.  I'm afraid we're
back to the classic T pre-Special Missile Supplement rules, where
missiles are much less powerful, but you never have to worry about
reloads or running out of them.

>A hangar is a hangar, y'know.  A place to keep your small craft, kind of
>like a garage.  

   As I stated above, I'm familar with the concepts, but someone picking
up the book with no prior knowledge of TNE might not understand the
difference.  The difference may be explained elsewhere, but I couldn't
find it on my first run through.

>I didn't really provide any explanatory text for any of these items.  The
>shops, labs, and sickbays were controversial, so there weren't (and
>aren't) any rules for their use.

   How could shops, labs, and sickbays be controversial?  and if you've
gone to all the trouble of putting them in the game, why wouldn't you
include a description of them?  I'm not accusing you personally of
anything, I just don't understand IG's logic.

>Fuel purificaion plants turn raw fuel <snip>

   This is the explanation that a newbie needs, and it should have been
included, but wasn't.

>Not my fault.  IG moved things around to get them to fit (on the other
>hand, IG _should_ have fixed up the text to reflect where they moved
>things TO).

   Absolutely.  If you are going to the trouble of including a *very* basic
ship design sequence, then you owe it to your public to make sure that
everything is spelled out as clearly and concisely as possible, and that
it all works as seamlessly and effortlessly as possible.  Afterall, you're
trying to *encourage* non-gearheads to design a ship, not discourage
them.

>I believe the controls (both civilian and military) do not require any crew.
>The tables I submitted to Imperium Games included a crew column on
>both, which was a uniformly zero; I suggedted that IG eliminate the
>column in editing.

   Well the columns were definately there.  On the SCC, at TL 9: 3.0 crew
are required, at TL 10: 3.0, at TL 11: 2.0, at TL 12: 2.0, at TL 13: 2.0, at
TL 14: 1.0 and at TL 15: 1.0 are required.

>That's mainly due to space limitations.  For the same reason, the table
>published in the book only concerns itself with TL-10 hulls.  

   Interesting, as the chart does not indicate that all the hulls are from
one universal tech level, though that would certainly make sense in
retrospect.

  Time for a *minor* correction on my TL 12 destroyer's hull....

>As it was, I barely finished the system in time to be included in the book;
>attempting to make it handle small craft as well would quite possibly
>made it miss.

   Then it was probably a good thing that you left it out.  Better a limited
system that can be expanded later than a total diaster unsuitable for
use by sane people (i.e. MegaErrata ship design).

>Remember, T:TNE _didn't_ have a ship design system in the main
>rulebook.  T4 was almost the same; and most of the layout problems
>can be attributed to squeezing QSDS into the available space.

   True enough, we get a slightly simplified TNE system in Brilliant Lances
(not included with the TNE manual), and then the full blown system in
FF&S (which you could purchase seperately or with the TNE manual as
part of the boxed set).  I beg to differ on the space problems though--
there appears to be more than adequate space available in the section
so that the tables could have been layed out in a more logical format.
Also, someone decided that inserting three full pages sketches that
have nothing to do what-so-ever with ship design in the ship design
section was a good idea--for future reference to whom it may concern,
it was not.  Neither was putting six pages of ship design examples
and illustrations between the ship design instructions and the tables
you need to carry out the instructions.  While having the examples
close at hand in the book was OK, they should have been put at the
end or the beginning of the ship design section so that you don't have to
flip past them as you go back and forth looking up information for your
designs.

>Again, pending the permission of IG, you'll be able to download a
>much-better-organized version of the system from my Web site.

   I look forward to it.

>Remember, I don't work (or speak) for IG; I just wrote the system ...

   Nearly as good  (and in some cases better).

   For the record, I'm not trying to trash IG here or the new ship design
sequence.  I'm merely trying to point out where the problems are, so
that they can be fixed.  I want everyone to be able to use this system
so that they don't feel like they have to fall back on Book 2 or High Guard
or some other such thing, or worse still, not design a ship at all.  One of
the things I appreciated most about TNE was that GDW was very open
and upfront about where mistakes were made, and they were 
generally quick to fix them (and no smart ass remarks about Virus being
a mistake they didn't fix, OK?).  Hopefully IG will continue this tradition.

Regards,

Harold



------------------------------

From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:51:18 +0000
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Some thoughts on Cleon's declaration of the Third Imperium:

Presumably he would have tried to link "his" Imperium to its 
predecessors. As someone has already pointed out, this is likely to 
be quite verbose -- this is presubably the justification for the 
whole Third Imperium.

I'm not too sure what else would be in there, apart from vague 
handwavings about the rights of sophonts and the supremacy of the 
Imperium over its subjects and dominions. It seems likely to me that 
much of what we see as the laws and ordinances of the Imperium could 
well have evolved over the years. As an example, the Moot could have 
been introduced as a method to give some powers to nobles, which the 
Emperor needed to keep on his side.

In any case, from what does the authority of the Imperium derive, if 
not the strength of Cleon's (or the current emperor's) fleets? In 
that case, a constitution describing the components of the Imperium 
probably isn't necessary.

 - Arthur Green
   University College Dublin Computing Services
   Phone: +353 1 706 2456  Fax: +353 1 283 7077  Email: arthur@cclana.ucd.ie


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:57:16 -0800
Subject: Progressive Difficulties

>Personally I just call out the skill to roll against, the players roll
>and compare the result to their asset, and then tell me what
>difficulty level they would have succeeded at.  This gives me the
>ability to give out more information for better successes without
>forcing the players to roll several times, or even to know when they
>have all the information.  From the sounds of it this isn't possible
>with the T4 task system.
>
Having used a similar system for task resolution to T4 for many years (in
my own RPG System, code name RP3)... It is actually VERY simple to do
progressive difficulties, although slow.

Have the player roll a minimum # of dice (I'd say 2), all d6's
then have them add 1 more die, and see if as a d3 it succeeds, then instead
(Without rerolling) as a d6. repeat until failure. number of dice
successfully under asset is level of success.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 10:57:22 -0800
Subject: Imperial Declaration

Marc:

One of the clauses that should be in it is a simple definition of what
constitutes an imperial citizen. Here's what I have used for that (based
upon CT/MT sources) in my campaigns for years (damn near a decade):

A citizen of the imperium shall be any sapient being: (1)born upon a member
world, (2) naturalized to a member world,  (3) having sworn alliegience to
the imperium and having served 4 or more years in "public service" upon a
member world, or (4) having served 4 or more years in some agency of the
imperial government.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 15 Aug 96 14:58:39 EDT
Subject: Starship Travails

>> >"Based on the Novel by Robert Heinlein"

More like, "Based on the cover blurb for a Novel by Robert Heinlein"

That said, I'll probably still be one of the people at the first matinee showing
<<

As with all these things, I find I prefer to assume they're completely different
stories. What's in a name? If I enjoy the movie _as a minimal-mind action caper_
then OK. If it does no justice to the book, I just grit my teeth, and wait for
the Official Lunch Boxes to be pushed off the shelves by the next fad. Then I
can go back to liking the book.

>> Also, consider just how much bracing those chairs will need. They will be
anchored to a *wall* with 100 kg of person in them. At 3 gees that's gonna take
some *real* work to design the chair not to rip out. <<

Umn, almost as much as it's going to take to prevent - say - the external sensor
array (frex: 200lb) from ripping off?

Ships designed at tL9 (no IComp) don't generally have better than 1G (can't
remember - isn't 2g invested later?) Ships whose Icomps crap out don't maneuver
at 3g. Maybe that's one explanation of a damage result of Maneuver-1. It still
works, but if you use it your crew become pate.

HWF

HWF


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 15:32:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

(Continued from previous message)

 The recognized nobles of the Imperium shall provide their
 advice and counsel to the Emperor prior to any legislation or
 action by the Emperor.  The recognized nobles, acting in this
 capacity, shall be designated the Imperial Moot.  The Imperial
 Moot shall have two powers over the Emperor:  They shall have
 the power to declare the dissolution of the Imperium, and they
 shall have the power to disqualify an Imperial Heir Apparent
 from ascending to the Imperial Power.  However, the latter
 power shall only be exercised for just and proper cause.  If
 the Emperor dies or abdicates having provided no heirs either
 by blood or by adoption, or if no heir of the Emperor is found
 fit to maintain the Powers of the Imperium, the Moot shall have
 the power to designate the recipient of the Imperial Powers.
 Should the Moot find it necessary to exercise this power, the
 designee shall be a citizen of the Imperium.

 A recognized noble of the Imperium shall be a sophont granted a
 noble title by the Emperor or by one empowered by the Emperor to
 grant noble titles.  Noble titles granted by member worlds may
 be recognized by the Imperium on a case-by-case basis.

 Article IV - Free Trade

 The Imperium shall support free trade between its members.  No
 member may impose import or export tariffs on any goods
 involved in trade between member planets.  No goods may be
 barred from trade by a member because of place of origin or
 destination.  No member shall engage in piracy or smuggling,
 nor allow its territory to be used for piracy or smuggling, nor
 shall issue letters of marque or other permission for ships
 operating in its territory to engage in piracy or smuggling.

 Article V - Standards

 The Imperium shall conduct all of its activities according to
 the Imperial Calendar, which shall consist of a Year made up of
 365 (three hundred sixty five) consecutive Days of 24 (twenty
 four) consecutive hours each.  The Days shall be numbered 1
 (one) to 365 (three hundred sixty five) in order.  The day that
 this Charter shall become effective shall be designated Day 1
 of Year 0 on the Imperial Calendar.  Day 1 of any Year on the
 Imperial Calendar (henceforth Imperial Year) shall be
 designated as an Imperial Holiday, named Holiday.

 The unit of exchange in interstellar commerce, and between the
 Imperium and the member worlds, shall be the Imperial Credit.
 The Imperial Credit shall be valued independently of the value
 of any coin, currency, or value of any member world.  The
 Imperium shall have the responsibility and power to control the
 value of the Imperial Credit.

 The Imperium shall use as its standard of measurement the
 presently accepted standard measures and nomenclature used by
 the Sylean Federation.  These standards shall be designated the
 Standard Imperial Measurement System (SI).

 {Here ends the matters that Marc specifically mentioned in his
 post.  The rest (and some of the above) is all "etc."}

 Article VI

 Chattel slavery shall not exist in the Imperium, nor on its
 member worlds, nor on any world with which a member world shall
 have dealings.

 Article VII

 The governance and operation of starports is reserved to the
 Imperium.  Movement of material and sophonts between the
 starport and the member world shall be controlled by the member
 world, subject to Imperial laws governing such movement.  The
 territory of a starport shall be excluded from the jurisdiction
 of the member world, and no material or sophonts shall enter
 the starport area from the member world without the express
 consent of the starport operating authority.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 I can't think of anything else that's needed, and I suspect
 that my verbosity can be reduced.  Comments?  Debate?
 Amendments?  I'll keep quiet on this topic until August 21,
 unless I am specifically asked to clarify or comment.  If you
 are asking for such clarification or comment, please ensure
 that you ask me _by_name_ - I won't respond to "what does
 'dealings' mean in Article VI"; you'll have to ask "Jeff, what
 did you have in mind when you said 'dealings'?" (i.e., if the
 question does not have my name in it, I won't answer.)

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Will Rogers never met a lawyer.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 15:32:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

Marc Miller writes...

X::>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
 ::>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
 ::>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions .

 [Deleted]

 Herewith my proposed Imperial Charter (my personal notes are in
 {} braces):
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Preamble - Proclamation of the Imperium

 We, Cleon Zhunastu, recognizing that the present structure
 governing the Sylean Federation is inadequate for governance of
 a necessarily expanded entity, and with the acquiescence of the
 present Government of the Sylean Federation, declare that the
 Sylean Federation has outlived its usefulness, and is
 dissolved.  We further proclaim that the worlds formerly of the
 Sylean Federation shall be members of a new entity, to be
 referred to henceforth as "the Imperium".  We further proclaim
 that we, Cleon Zhunastu, are assuming Imperial power for the
 period necessary to ensure a stable and enduring Imperium.

 Article I - Imperial Governance, Membership, Citizenship

 The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any
 member world.  Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to
 provide for the defense of all of the member worlds as a group,
 and to bring the rule of law to the spaces between worlds.

 A world shall be defined as a body of planetary size that is
 populated.  Included in this definition shall be planetoid
 belts, defined as a region of space around a central star to
 which the component planetoids are gravitationally bound, such
 that not less than two-thirds of the planetoids so bound shall
 have not less than two-thirds of their respective orbits within
 that region.

 Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim
 allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall
 become a member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other
 members of the Imperium.  Member worlds shall govern themselves
 as they see proper, provided that such government does not
 violate Imperial laws.

 The exclusive jurisdiction of a member world shall extend to
 100 (one hundred) times the diameter of the member world,
 measured from the center of mass of the world.  The exclusive
 jurisdiction of a member world that is a planetoid belt shall
 extend throughout the region that defines the member world, and
 to all planetary bodies or planetoids that traverse that
 region, and to 100 diameters of such planetary bodies
 or planetoids or 1000 miles, whichever is greater, measured from
 the center of mass of the planetary body or planetoid.

 A member world that is the sole member world in its stellar
 system, and which has the technological capability and
 sufficient personnel to enforce its laws throughout the system,
 may, upon proper notification to and acceptance by the
 Imperium, exercise exclusive jurisdiction throughout the
 stellar system.  If a second world shall apply for membership
 in the Imperium from such system, the first member world shall
 have the right to veto such membership.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit governmental entities superior to the member worlds but
 subordinate to the Imperium.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit bureaus and agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial
 will.

 The Imperium considers as citizens any sophont native to or
 naturalized by a member world of the Imperium.

 A world governed by a member world is not itself a member
 world, but is considered to be part of the member world, and
 all inhabitants thereof are considered to have the same rights,
 protections, and obligations under Imperial law as the
 inhabitants of the member world.

 Article II - The Emperor, Hereditary Succession

 The Powers of the Imperium shall be vested in an Emperor, who
 shall maintain that title and those powers until his death or
 voluntary abdication.  Upon such death or abdication, the title
 and powers shall pass to the oldest child of the Emperor,
 provided that the child shall have been publicly acknowledged
 as the Emperor's by the Emperor, and providing that there are
 no conditions which would disqualify the child as fit to
 maintain the Powers of the Imperium.

 Article III - The Moot, Nobility
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Will Rogers never met a lawyer.



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 13:29:13 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: Task system?

On 08/15/96 at 12:33 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

> but *is* there a way to figure probabilities for each number in
> some easier manner?

>Sure. Here's a quick & dirty QBASIC program I threw together to generate
>them (note that I started with 3.5, and commented out loops to get the
>lesser results)

>DIM roll(25)
>'FOR a = 1 TO 6
>  'FOR b = 1 TO 6

<snip>

Thanks Shadow, but this *is* what I meant by brute force.  I did the same
thing yesterday, used Pascal rather than QBASIC.  What *would* we do
without our computers?  <g> 

Actually, *that* was what I meant, how *would* we do it if we didn't have
the computer to do it by brute force?

Years ago, when Traveller was new and a calculator was the
closest thing to a computer I had access to, I figured 2d6, 2d8, 3d6, and a
few others by hand using the same basic algorithim.  I said then and say
now, "There *ought* to be a better, a smarter way!" <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 13:59:47 -0500
Subject: RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills

On 08/15/96 at 08:47 AM,  ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn) said:

>After 12 years' experience you are _certainly_ much, much more than 30 per
>cent better than when you first stepped onto the bridge of a vessel, as it
>is highly unlikely that Astrogation is a default skill.  Thus, you
>previously had _no_ chance whatsoever to improve.  [grin]

That's certainly a valid point. <g>

>And then there are physical skills:  I may have been honing my basketball
>expertise for 12 years now (I haven't), but I am still just 5'10 with
>pretty unimpressive hand-eye co-ordination. 

Hey! I resemble that remark!  <g>

>30 per cent would be meaningful in relation to my overall ability
>to hit a shot, but would likely not impress some kid, 6'6 and jumps
>like Michael Jordan, who has only being playing for a year.

Let's see...you both start off with equal strength and agility, you've been
working hard for 12 years, he's just picked up the ball. HEIGHT is
something else!  Traveller has never really taking SIZE into account.  But
let's try it anyway...

The kid could probably post you up the inside, but with 12 years of
experience you would know how to block him out so he wouldn't get *easy*
shots or rebounds.  From the outside you should be able to cover him pretty
well, and frankly steal him blind if he tries to drive to the basket. 
Offensively, you'd have to depend on fakes and quickness to get open shots
and layups.  I think you'd have a good chance...sort of like Muggsy Boggs,
in his prime, going up against Michael Jordan as a high school junior.

To make the analogy more fair, let's put MJ up against the high school kid
that was just drafted in the first round.  They are both about the same
size, and probably pretty close to the same *natural* ability.  I'd even
say MJ has lost a point or two of his *natural* ability from aging, but my
expectation would be that MJ would shut the kid down and score at will. <g>

Would MJ be 36% better than whats-his-name?  More?  Less?  I guess that's
just subjective.

>...definitely NOT like Mike!

...but wouldn't it be nice. <g>

Eris

ps.  I'm not knocking the kid, I just don't remember his name, and I'm sure
he'll be a very good player...eventually, maybe even as good as MJ, but
just not his first year.
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:18:26 -0400
Subject: RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills -Reply

>ps.  I'm not knocking the kid, I just don't remember his name, and I'm sure
>he'll be a very good player...eventually, maybe even as good as MJ, but
>just not his first year.

His name is Kobe Bryant.

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/14/96 at 04:20 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@qrc.com> said:
> 
> >    I still don't see the need for a split! 
> 
> Me neither.
> 
> Hey, where is the 2300AD list anyway?

send to: ad2300-request@mars.galstar.com
body of message: subscribe

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #325
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 16 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 326

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. A Big Green UPP
         2. T4 Task System
         3. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         4. Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)
         5. Re: T4: EDU and Grad school
         6. Re: Founding Document
         7. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         8. Re: Founding Document
         9. T4: Character Generation
        10. Re: Basketball Skill & MJ
        11. Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document
        12. Re: Founding Document
        13. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)
        14. Re: FAQs ?
        15. Ship design (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 15 Aug 96 13:44:04 MS
Subject: A Big Green UPP

Rich Sezov said:
>>Steve Charlton scharlto@avalon.com scharlto@rtd.com
>>Did I mention SciFi Channel shows Incredible Hulk a lot?
>
>Hey, I *like* the Incredible Hulk! I wonder what *his* UPP would be
>(FFF000)?

Strength and Endurance of 15 I'll buy, but Dexterity?  More like 6 or 7.  H'es 
always going to be constrained by those size 32 pants constricting his now size 
40 waist.  Ouch.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 15 Aug 1996 18:32:13 GMT
Subject: T4 Task System

Could someone please post a summary of the T4 task system?  Although I live
near the Canada-US border, mail to/from the US takes _ages_ (twice as long as
mail to/from Australia!), so I'm not anticipating getting my h/c T4 until
school starts (by when I will be too busy to do much reading).

Thanks.

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 15 Aug 96 15:14:19 MS
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Yow, this is a big subject.  

I would suspect the document in question would NOT be any form of laws or 
anything, beyond a simple statement of rights and responsibilities.  I think it 
would be more along the lines of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights; a 
foundation for real laws to be built upon.  In the US Constitution, there is 
really only one law and crime specified; treason.  The rest are enumerated in 
the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments.   

I would picture a flowery preamble, and a discussion of the intent of the 
Imperium; why is it being created, what is the goal and how it fits into an 
overall historical trend leading to this point.  I would follow that with an 
overview on the organization of the Imperium; the hereditary nobility etc.  I 
think it would outline a structure that is different from the 1200 model; there 
would not be any mention of Archdukes and Domains.  These would be added later 
when the Imperium grows.  At first, the document would only address the 
nobility structure at the subsector/sector level, and how lower-ranking nobles 
would rule/reign/represent smaller entities such as star systems and worlds.

For the end of the document, I would include something called The Twleve 
Precepts.  Like the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights, these Precepts are not 
truly laws in themselves, but guidelines to be followed in making laws.  Each 
Precept would be a paragraph, and like the Bill of Rights would be open and 
loose enough to be subject to interpretation.  Here's a suggested set of 
precepts (some of which are blatantly stolen from other posts)

The Twelve Precepts
1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
origin, is a protected
being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.
2.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of Imperial member worlds, subject 
to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>
3.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of the thoughts and beleifs of 
Imperial citizens. 
4.  A guarantee of the right of free passage for Imperial Citizens within 
Imperial space, again subject to the safety, security and well-being of the 
Imperium.
5.  A guarantee of the right of Imperial nobles to Imperial justice, and to 
appeal to higher nobility.
6.  A guarantee of the right of all Imperial Citizens to due process, subject 
to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>
7.  A statement of the responsibility of Imperial member worlds and citizens to 
support the Imperium and its laws, by action and through taxes
8.  An acknowledgement of the power of the Emperor to mete out justice, and to 
overturn any ruling from a lower noble or court. 
9.  A statement of immunity from local laws and justice for the Emperor and the 
Imperial family
10.  A limitation of the laws of Imperial members worlds to apply to those 
worlds alone, and not to extend to Imperial space or territory.
11.  An extension of the Imperial immunity from local justice to include the 
Moot and the Imperial Household.
12.  An acknowledgement that, when a conflict exists between an Imperial law or 
decree and a law or decree from an Imperial member world or lesser noble, the 
Imperial law or decree holds precedence

As you can see, there are several loopholes here:
1.  Fairly straightforward, but define sentient
2.  "Subject to" is another way of saying "unlesss the Emperor decides 
otherwise"
3.  There is no gaurantee about the freedom to express or act on these ideas or 
beleifs.
4.  Again, "Subject to" is another way of saying "unlesss the Emperor decides 
otherwise"
5.  Since Imperial Law does not recognize many "crimes" covered in planetary 
laws, this often means Nobles can get away with many crimes, or get lesser 
punishments.  However, some crimes have greater punishments at the Imperial 
level
6.  Again, "Subject to" is another way of saying "unlesss the Emperor decides 
otherwise"
7.  Time to pay the piper.  There's nothing here that says "fair" or "equitable"
8.  Local laws are fine, unless the Emperor is interested.
9.  Local laws are fine, unless the Emperor is involved.
10.  Local laws are fine, unless the Emperor's space or property is involved.
11.   Local laws are fine, unless the Emperor's friends, cronies or coworkers 
are  involved
12.  Local laws are fine, unless the Imperium has a better one.

Somewhat cynical sounding, but remember that the Emperor (Cleon) is no fool, 
and understands that his power can only e used sparingly; constant interference 
in local events will wear him out, and will make him very unpopular.  Unpopular 
leaders would likely have a short lifespan.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:08:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Folks have mentioned ships looking different several times already. What's
> so different?  Are the new ships like the pictures on IG's webpage? 
> Besides, ships look like whoever designs them says they look like.  If you
> want ships to look like CT ships, then design ships that look like
> that..and draw your own pictures. <g>

There is that. :)

What concerned me most about the change in the way Traveller ships look 
as that, as far as figures go, I would be stuck with the new look.  
That's why I bought many of each figure RAFM offers. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:14:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: EDU and Grad school

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >...or you could divide the Skill Asset by a value for each
> >difficulty level, such as:
[snip]
> Yes, I've thought of that too.  The only way that would work would be to
> pre-generate as much as possible. 

Yeah, that's a problem with a lot of possible task systems.  Too much 
work involved.  I like the T4 system because it is so simple - esp. if 
you buy a few D3s.  


> Another idea I've toyed with is not having 0 Skill levels.  Default skills
> are .5 Skill levels:  Attribute of 8 - Skill.5=4, Skill1=8, Skill2=16, etc. 
> The problem is how fast the numbers escalate.

Hmmm.  So we seem to have established that the system we would like to 
see would be simple and robust, while using only D6's.  Other than the 
D100-style reading of D6's, I haven't seen anything proposed that fits 
the bill.  And I can't think of anything else either.  I guess we'll have 
to keep at it...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: CLiMD1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:51:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Founding Document

Please note:  The "Imperial Rules of War" can not be mentioned in the
Founding Document.  No government will ever write itself into a corner on
when it can or cannot intervene in the matters within its own realm.  It is
OBVIOUS that the Imperium would not have allowed nuclear, chemical or
biological warfare to continue due to the high number of casualties and
damage inflicted upon the Imperial infrastructure.  I cite the Final War as a
good example... do enough of this interstellar nuclear hot potato and the
Imperium would find itself back in the Stone Ages.  
     In addition, the Imperium would also reserve the right to intervene in
any conflict within its realm that did NOT involve NBC warfare for its own
reasons.  For example, extensive interplanetary conflict that may disrupt
mercantile shipping would certainly be of concern for the Imperial Navy's
mandate to make space safe for commerce.

The document should allude to the history of the First and Second Imperium if
ONLY to allow itself to draw precedent (without actually reiterating it in
the Founding Document) when needed.

Definitely, no mention should be made of methods or processes of removing the
Emperor/Emperoress from office.

My Cr2... more later.
















                                                                      Charles

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:08:00 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

At 03:14 PM 8/15/96 MS, you wrote:
>The Twelve Precepts

        I thinks this document will say almost nothing about the "rights" of
individuals, concentrating rather on the rights/responsibilities of nobles
and governments. Everybody else is below the notice of the Imperium, and
just a matter for the individual worlds. If you start giving people rights,
you limit what the government can do to them. That's bound to cause some
governments to resist joining the Imperium. Now, you can PERHAPS limit what
one government can do to another's subjects, and prohibit something like the
slave trade between worlds. But an individual world will still be able to
have slavery.

>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>origin, is a protected
>being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.

        Since one of the Emperors Cleon had to enunciate this much later,
it's obviously not a part of the original founding document.

>2.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of Imperial member worlds,
subject 
>to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>

        OK.

>3.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of the thoughts and beleifs of 
>Imperial citizens. 

        This isn't a 20th century democracy. Remember, the Imperium even in
1100 contains ALL kinds of governments, many of which are completely
contradictory to this. And why should the Imperium care about Joe Schmoe?

>4.  A guarantee of the right of free passage for Imperial Citizens within 
>Imperial space, again subject to the safety, security and well-being of the 
>Imperium.

        Don't spell this out. Assume it under the "free trade"

>5.  A guarantee of the right of Imperial nobles to Imperial justice, and to 
>appeal to higher nobility.

        This one single right (the right of any citizen to appeal to a
noble), I might see in this document.

>6.  A guarantee of the right of all Imperial Citizens to due process, subject 
>to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>

        Ditch this.

>7.  A statement of the responsibility of Imperial member worlds and
citizens to 
>support the Imperium and its laws, by action and through taxes

        OK.

>8.  An acknowledgement of the power of the Emperor to mete out justice, and to 
>overturn any ruling from a lower noble or court. 

        Be careful how much you spell out the power of the Emperor. You
might be implicitly limiting him/her by omitting something (i.e. since it
spells out stuff he can do, and doesn't say he can do "X," he can't do "X")

>9.  A statement of immunity from local laws and justice for the Emperor and
the 
>Imperial family

        That shouldn't even be considered a possibility by mentioning it.
Rather just say that the Emperor is the supreme authority.

>10.  A limitation of the laws of Imperial members worlds to apply to those 
>worlds alone, and not to extend to Imperial space or territory.

>11.  An extension of the Imperial immunity from local justice to include the 
>Moot and the Imperial Household.

        See 9. Don't even admit it's conceivable by denying it.

>12.  An acknowledgement that, when a conflict exists between an Imperial
law or 
>decree and a law or decree from an Imperial member world or lesser noble, the 
>Imperial law or decree holds precedence
>
>
- --_________________________________________
temporarily SIGless while mobile post-GenCon


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:08:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Founding Document

At 08:51 PM 8/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Please note:  The "Imperial Rules of War" can not be mentioned in the
>Founding Document.  No government will ever write itself into a corner on

        I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly didn't mean to have
the IRW themselves written into the charter. In fact, they have NEVER been
formally codified anyway. What I meant was that the Imperium should reserve
to itself the right to violate the very sovereignty of a world that it is
supposedly guaranteed, and then used IRW as an example of WHY the charter
should allow it. I agree, keep this as general as possible (so the Emperor
can stretch it as far as he/she likes).
- --_________________________________________
temporarily SIGless while mobile post-GenCon


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:30:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: Character Generation

Now that I have some experience with the character generation system, I 
have a few comments:

1)  While characters do end up with a lot of skills, the use of the 
Clusters (ie, allowing the player to pick among a group of related skills 
rathan forcing one on him) makes it easier for a player to get higher 
levels of fewer skills, OR get more skills at lower levels.

2)  I can't figure out why character types which do not have ranks all 
have Item benefit tables that list 7 items, even though there is no way 
to roll a 7.  (At least, no way that I can find.)

3)  If your character is going to go to college, and if you are using one 
of the optional characteristic generation systems that allows it, put 
your lowest score in EDU, assuming it is 4 or greater.  As noted before, 
you get a +4 increase in EDU upon successful completion of College (+5 if 
you graduate with honors), which is a pretty easy way of getting rid of 
your lowest score.  For example, I just rolled up a character with UPP 
988947.  After going to college, the score was 988987.  Much better...

4)  Although I was skeptical of the usefulness of the Scholar character 
in a typical CT-style campaign, I just rolled one up (the aforementioned 
college graduate) and it was rather easy to work in such useful skills as 
Pistol-1 and Astrogation-3, in addition to a bunch of scholarly skills.  
The character ended up being a nice multi-dimensional character, well 
able to pursue his scholarly goals while Travelling.  He wouldn't be a 
drag on the average Traveller character group.  (Of course he wouldn't 
fit very well with a mercenary outfit...[G])

5)  The home world generation in the character generation section should 
have been replaced with a reference to the appropriate tables in the 
World Generation section.  As it is, it does not generate a UPW, so 
is of marginal usefulness IMO.  The character should certainly know more 
about his homeworld than that it was "Large," had water, etc.  

6)  I really like the Homeworld Common Skills tables.  This was a really 
good addition.

7)   This character, like the previous ones I generated, didn't exceed 
the 17 skills which space is provided for on the character sheet.  This 
was mostly because I wanted skill depth as well as breadth.  If a person 
wanted all skills at level 1, it would be easy to exceed 17 skills, though.

8)  Jack-of-all-Trades is still too powerful of a skill, IMO.  It allows 
characters to use any skill that it is possible to use at level-0, but 
with the J-o-t skill level plus /half/ the relevant attribute as the 
target number.  Using 1/2 attribute scores as the basis is good, but I 
still think it is too powerful a skill.  With level-0 skill usage 
available, I think J-o-t skill should be dropped.

That's it for now.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:33:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Basketball Skill & MJ

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 13:59:47 -0500
>Subject: RE:Astrogation and attributes/skills
>
>
>To make the analogy more fair, let's put MJ up against the high school kid
>that was just drafted in the first round.  They are both about the same
>size, and probably pretty close to the same *natural* ability.  I'd even
>say MJ has lost a point or two of his *natural* ability from aging, but my
>expectation would be that MJ would shut the kid down and score at will. <g>

I agree, but how much of that is knowledge of the game (skill level) and how
much is raw talent (attribute) and how much is pure intimidation (somethin
else entirely!)?



Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:05:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document

>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions=85.
>
>1. It established the Empire, which is defined as governmental unit ruled=
 by
>an Emperor over subordinate governments such as principalities, baronies,
>kingdoms, etc.
>
>2. The Empire rules the spaces between the worlds; worlds retain their own
>sovereignty, but declare allegiance to the Empire.
>
>3. Free trade.
>
>4. Adoption of the Imperial calendar.
>
>5. A hereditary emperor.
>
>6. A legislative body for the purposes of advise and consent to imperial
>actions=85 the Moot. Membership is open to all nobles of the Imperium. A
>relatively weak body.
>
>Etc etc.
>
>Assuming this document is less than 1,000 words, what would it say?
>What other provisions would it have. What would be the loopholes? What is=
 its
>name?

Here's a quick draft.  I haven't counted the words.  Please pick it apart,
as the various negotiators would've done in the year -5.

____________________________________________________________________________
__________

Declaration of the Imperium

1.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, and the Nobility and Worlds of this region, hereby
establish and declare the Third Imperium. =20

2.  The Imperium has jurisdiction over all matters in interstellar and jump
space. =20

3.  The Worlds retain their own sovereignty, but hereby declare their
everlasting allegiance to the Imperium.  Worlds subsequently admitted to the
Imperium shall declare their everlasting allegiance to the Imperium, and
shall subscribe to this Declaration.  The Worlds have jurisdiction over all
matters within their star systems, except where the exercise of such
jurisdiction interferes with Imperial jurisdiction.

4.  The Nobles hereby declare their everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon
Zhunastu, and to our heirs and legitimate successors, and to their own
lieges and vassals.  Nobles subsequently created shall declare their
everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon Zhunastu, and to our heirs and
legitimate successors, and to their own lieges and vassals, and shall
subscribe to this Declaration.

5.  The Worlds and Nobles shall not restrict interstellar trade and
commerce, and hereby forswear any claimed right, authority, or jurisdiction
to do so.=20

6.  The Worlds and Nobles hereby adopt the Imperial calendar, according to
the regulations of the Imperial Calendar Compliance Office.  World
subsequently admitted and Nobles subsequently created shall likewise adopt
the Imperial calendar.

7.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, are hereby declared Emperor and absolute ruler of
this Imperium, ultimate liege lord of the Nobles, and commander in chief of
all armed forces of the Imperium, for as long as We shall live.  Our heirs
and legitimate successors shall become Emperor upon Our death or abdication,
as shall their heirs and legitimate successors, in perpetuity.  We, Cleon
Zhunastu, and our heirs and legitimate successors in perpetuity, are hereby
empowered to rule by decree, and to establish and disband and empower such
institutions and organizations as may from time to time be necessary to
govern the Imperium.

8.  The Nobles of the Imperium constitute the Moot.  The Moot shall meet
from time to time to consider matters of importance to the governance of the
Imperium, and shall advise the Emperor thereon.  The Moot may by consent of
all of its members in attendance declare the termination of the Imperium.

Subscribed to this ___ day of the year 0 by

Cleon Zhunastu

nobles

representatives of worlds

____________________________________________________________________________=
___

Everyone is encouraged to think like lawyers!


- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:24:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Founding Document

On 15 Aug 96 at 20:08, David J. Golden spewed:

> 
>         I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly didn't mean to have
> the IRW themselves written into the charter. In fact, they have NEVER been
> formally codified anyway. What I meant was that the Imperium should reserve
> to itself the right to violate the very sovereignty of a world that it is
> supposedly guaranteed, and then used IRW as an example of WHY the charter
> should allow it. I agree, keep this as general as possible (so the Emperor
> can stretch it as far as he/she likes).

Yeah, I've got to say that I'm coming around to this sort of 
interpretation of it as well.  Its going to be a whole lot less of a 
Code of Hammurabi, and a whole lot more a combination of general 
principles, and why you should buy Imperial, and not Terran Union...  
A rousing speech of general principles, not a focus on minutiae...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:03:15 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)

Moin Derek Wildstar,

> Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
> Fuel	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%

	Whats that normal would be : 10%,15%,20%,25% and so on if
	I had interpreted the FF&S rules the last years right.

	FF&S states :

	" The fuel necessary for a jump of one parsec is equal to
	  the total volume of of the jump drive machinery multiplied
	  by 5 and dividet by the drives maximum jump number. "

	While the volume of a jump drive is jump+1 percent of the
	ships displacement, the volume for a full jump would be
	(jump+1)*5 percent of the hulls displacement.

	So who is wrong ?

By Michael

PS : I think I'll stay with TNE.
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:12:57 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: FAQs ?

Moin Dragoness Eclectic,

	Can somebody tell the exact URL this would save money
	on my phone bill ;-)

	I would need :

	- DGP sectors
	- the script to colapse a system (ok TNE has on)
	- "Trillion Credit Squadron" formulas 
	- The campaign rules for the original "Striker"
	  annual military budget

> (One of these days I'm going to convert my REXX scripts to perl, 
> as I've moved from OS/2 to Linux as my OS of choice...) 

	Oh convinced by the net, I'm playing with Linux since 0.12
	and using it since MCC 0.95c+ ;-)

	Take a look at the AWK scripts I had posted.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 05:28:22 +0000 ()
Subject: Ship design (LONG)

Hy Folks,

	here comes my next awk script for designing a ship, together
	with the weapon scripts they provide fast and handy system.

	While recalulating the "Jayhawk" I found that my calculation
	has 15 disp.tons more. I dont think that this is all done
	by the trick of calculating the live support only for the
	non occupied room. Also my Jayhawk has only a mass of 618
	tons, hm perhaps somebody with knowledge of FF&S can tell
	why ;-)

	Take you favorate ship design recalculate it with my
	script and mail me where the bug ist ...

By Michael

PS : The printout of this script nearly looks like originals ;-)
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de


  				---- cut here ---

echo File trader.inp
sed '/^X/s///' > trader.inp << '/'
X# Jayhawk-Class Far Trader
Xtl 12
Xdt 200
Xmvm 1.5
Xlm 2.5
Xj 2
Xg 1
Xgh 24
Xcg
Xfpp 24
Xmw 37
X#   key   type n mw   vol   mass   m2  name
Xadd av    elec 1 0.1  0.001 0.001  0   Avionics
Xadd radio elec 1 1    0.01  0.02  10   Radio 30,000 km
Xadd maser elec 1 0.6  0.1   0.2    1   Maser 1000 AU
Xadd aems  elec 1 8    1.6   3.2    3.2 Aktive EMS 3,000 km
Xadd pems  elec 1 0.03 0.3   0.6    1   Passive EMS 30,000 km
Xadd ws    elec 4 0    28    0.2    0   Workstations
Xadd ts    arma 2 0    42    0      0   Turret Sockets
Xadd csr   acco 5 0    28    2      0   small Crew staterooms
Xadd psr   acco 5 0    28    2      0   small Passenger staterooms
Xadd air   acco 2 0    42    0.2    2   Airlocks
Xadd hatch acco 2 0    0     0      20  large cargo hatch
Xadd hanga acco 1 0    15    0      0   small hangar
Xadd cargo acco 1 0    950   0      0   cargo bay
X# trick to have the cargo in the load data.
Xadd load  trick 1 0    -950   0      0   cargo bay
/

echo File ship.gawk
sed '/^X/s///' > ship.gawk << '/'
X#!/usr/local/bin/gawk -f
X#
X#	ship.gawk 		(c) GPL Michael Koehne kraehe@bakunin.north.de
X#
X#		shipdesign based on FF&S (c) GDW 
X#		usage: just start it and type help
X#                      Y'll need FF&S or Briliant lances to use it
X#
X# ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
X
XBEGIN {
X	tl=9
X	dt=100
X	jump=1
X	graph=1
X	ghour=30
X	mvm=1
X	lm=1
X	ar=10
X	mw=0
X	cg=0
X	ls="e"
X	fpp=0
X
X	if (!system("tty >/dev/null")) { calc(); show() }
X	}
X
X# ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
X
X$1 == "tl"  {	tl=$2		}
X$1 == "dt"  {	dt=$2		}
X$1 == "j"   {	jump=$2		}
X$1 == "g"   {	graph=$2	}
X$1 == "gh"  {	ghour=$2	}
X$1 == "mvm" {	mvm=$2		}
X$1 == "lm"  {	lm=$2		}
X$1 == "ar"  {	ar=$2		}
X$1 == "mw"  {	mw=$2		}
X$1 == "cg"  {	cg=$2		}
X$1 == "ls"  {	ls=$2		}
X$1 == "fpp" {	fpp=$2		}
X$1 == "add" {	add_type[$2]=$3
X		add_num [$2]=$4
X		add_mw  [$2]=$5
X		add_vol [$2]=$6
X		add_mass[$2]=$7
X		add_qm  [$2]=$8
X		add_name[$2]=$9
X		for (i=10; i<=NF; i++) add_name[$2]=add_name[$2] " " $i
X		}
X
XNF == 0 {	calc(); show()	}
X
X# ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
X
X$1 == "help" {
X	printf "\nShipdesign\t\t(c) GPL Michael Koehne kraehe@bakunin.north.de\n"
X	printf "\t\t\t    based on FF&S (c) GDW\n\n"
X	printf "\tTech Level         tl=%d\t", tl
X	printf "\tDisplacement       dt=%d\n", dt
X	printf "\tJump performance    j=%d\t", jump
X	printf "\tG performance       g=%d\n", graph
X	printf "\tG hours            gh=%d\t", ghour
X	printf "\tMaterial vol.mod  mvm=%d\n", mvm
X	printf "\tLength modifier    lm=%d\t", lm
X	printf "\tArmor value        ar=%d\n", ar
X	printf "\tContra Graph       cg=%d\t", cg
X	printf "\tFuel PP hours     fpp=%d\n", fpp
X	printf "\tLife Support [beg] ls=%s\t", ls
X	printf "\tadditional MW      mw=%d\n", mw
X	printf "\nto change any value type : key<SPC>value<LF>\n"
X	printf "to recalulate type : <LF>\n\n"
X	}
X
X# ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
X
Xfunction calc() {
X#							Dimensions
X	len=exp(log(6*dt*14/3.1416)/3)
X	mv=len*len*3.1416/100
X	len=len*lm
X	mv=mv*mvm
X
X	mass=0; load=dt; smw=mw
X
X#							Hull
X
X	if (ar < graph*10) ar=graph*10
X
X	if (tl < 10) {
X		hulldisp = ar*mv/6;     hullmass = hulldisp*8
X		intedisp = graph*mv/6;  intemass = intedisp*8 }
X	else
X	if (tl < 12) {
X		hulldisp = ar*mv/8;     hullmass = hulldisp*10
X		intedisp = graph*mv/8;  intemass = intedisp*10 }
X	else
X	if (tl < 14) {
X		hulldisp = ar*mv/14;    hullmass = hulldisp*15
X		intedisp = graph*mv/14; intemass = intedisp*15 }
X	else {	hulldisp = ar*mv/28;    hullmass = hulldisp*15
X		intedisp = graph*mv/28; intemass = intedisp*15 }
X
X	hulldisp /= 14;
X	intedisp /= 14;
X
X	mass += hullmass+intemass
X	load -= hulldisp+intedisp
X
X#							Jump drive
X
X	jdrivedisp=dt*(0.01+jump/100)
X	if (tl<14) jdrivemass=jdrivedisp*3
X	if (tl==14) jdrivemass=jdrivedisp*2.5
X	if (tl==15) jdrivemass=jdrivedisp*2
X	jfuel=jdrivedisp*5
X
X	mass += jdrivemass+jfuel
X	load -= jdrivedisp+jfuel
X
X#							Thusters
X
X 	gwatt=graph*dt/2
X 	thust=gwatt*0.1
X 	gfuel=dt/(8*14)
X
X	mass += thust+ghour*gfuel
X	load -= thust/14+ghour*gfuel
X	smw  += gwatt
X
X#							Fuel purifcation
X
X	if (fpp>0) {
X	if (tl < 10) { fppmw = 0.009; fppvol=0.6;  }
X	else
X	if (tl < 11) { fppmw = 0.008; fppvol=0.55; }
X	else
X	if (tl < 12) { fppmw = 0.007; fppvol=0.45; }
X	else
X	if (tl < 13) { fppmw = 0.006; fppvol=0.4;  }
X	else
X	if (tl < 14) { fppmw = 0.005; fppvol=0.35; }
X	else
X	if (tl < 15) { fppmw = 0.005; fppvol=0.25; }
X	else         { fppmw = 0.005; fppvol=0.2;  }
X
X	fppmw  *= 6*(gfuel+jfuel)/fpp
X	fppvol *= 6*(gfuel+jfuel)/fpp
X	fppmass = fppvol*2
X
X	mass += fppmass
X	load -= fppvol/14
X	smw  += fppmw
X	}
X
X#							Contra-Graph
X
X	cgmw=0; cgvol=0; cgmass=0; 
X	if (cg) {
X		if (tl < 10) { cgmw=0.3; cgvol=0.5; cgmass=0.4; }
X		else
X		if (tl < 12) { cgmw=0.2; cgvol=0.3; cgmass=0.3; }
X		else         { cgmw=0.1; cgvol=0.3; cgmass=0.2; }
X		}
X
X	cgmw   *= dt
X	cgvol  *= dt
X	cgmass *= dt
X
X	mass += cgmass
X	load -= cgvol/14
X	smw  += cgmw
X
X#							Controlls
X
X	if (tl < 10) {  csmw=0.0005; cstype="Computer" }
X	else
X	if (tl < 13) {	csmw=0.001;  cstype="Dynamic" }
X	else {		csmw=0.001;  cstype="Holographic" }
X
X	csmw  *= dt
X	csvol  = dt*0.014
X	csmass = dt*0.0014
X
X	mass += csmass
X	load -= csvol/14
X	smw  += csmw
X
X#							Computers
X
X	compmw   = (tl*0.05-0.2)*3
X	compvol  = (tl < 13 ? 9+tl-13 : 22-tl)*3
X	compmass = compvol*0.2
X
X	mass += compmass
X	load -= compvol/14
X	smw  += compmw
X
X#							Life support
X
X	if (ls=="b") { lsmw=0.0001; lsvol=0.005; lsmass=0.005; lstype="Basic" } 
X	if (ls=="e") { lsmw=0.0001; lsvol=0.008; lsmass=0.008; lstype="Extendet"} 
X	if (ls=="g") { lsmw=0.0051; lsvol=0.015; lsmass=0.025; lstype="Ext+Grav" } 
X
X	lsmw   *= load*14	# I know its tricky to use free load here
X	lsvol  *= load*14
X	lsmass *= load*14
X	lsload  = load*14
X
X	mass += lsmass
X	load -= lsvol/14
X	smw  += lsmw
X
X#							Additionals
X
X	for (i in add_num) {
X		mass += add_mass[i]*add_num[i]
X		smw  += add_mw[i]*add_num[i]
X		load -= add_vol[i]*add_num[i]/14
X		}
X
X#							Power Plant
X
X	if (tl < 13) { ppdisp=smw/2; ppmass=ppdisp*4; ppfuel=smw*0.15 }
X	else
X	if (tl < 15) { ppdisp=smw/3; ppmass=ppdisp*3; ppfuel=smw*0.1 }
X	else	     { ppdisp=smw/6; ppmass=ppdisp*2; ppfuel=smw*0.1 }
X
X	ppdisp /= 14
X	ppfuel /= 14
X
X	mass += ppmass+ppfuel
X	load -= ppdisp+ppfuel
X	}
X
Xfunction show() {
X#							Printing
X
X	printf "General Data:\n"
X
X	printf "\tDisplacement : %5.5s dt     \tTech Level : %5.5s\n",
X		dt,tl
X	printf "\tLength       : %5.1f meters \tVolume     : %5.0d m3\n",
X		len,dt*14
X	printf "\tHull         : %5.0d m2     \tArmor      : %5.0d\n",
X		mv*100,ar
X	printf "\tMass         : %5.0d tons   \tLoad       : %5.0d dt\n",
X		mass, load
X
X	printf "\nEngineering Data:\n"
X
X	printf "\tHull             : %d m3, %.1f dt, %d tons\n",
X		hulldisp*14+intedisp*14, hulldisp+intedisp, hullmass+intemass
X	printf "\tPower plant      : %d MW, %d m3, %.1f dt, %d tons\n",
X		smw, (ppdisp+ppfuel)*14,ppdisp+ppfuel, ppmass+ppfuel
X	printf "\tJump performance : %d (Drive %d m3, %.1f dt, Mass %d tons)\n",
X		jump, jdrivedisp*14, jdrivedisp, jdrivemass
X	printf "\tG-Rating         : %dG (Thusters %d MW, %d m3)\n",
X		graph, gwatt, thust
X	printf "\tG-Turns          : %d (%d using jump fuel) %.1f m3 of fuel each\n",
X		ghour*2, 2*(ghour+jfuel/gfuel),7*gfuel
X	if (cg)
X	printf "\tContra Graph     : %d MW, %d m3, %.1f dt, %d tons\n",
X		cgmw, cgvol, cgvol/14, cgmass
X	if (fpp)
X		printf "\tFuel scope       : %.1f m3, %d hours to refine",
X			fppvol, fpp
X	else
X		printf "\tFuel             :"
X	printf " %d m3, %.1f dt\n",
X		14*ghour*gfuel+jfuel*14, ghour*gfuel+jfuel
X
X	printf "\nElectronics:\n"
X	printf "\tControll system  : %s linked %.2f MW, %.1f m3, %.2f tons\n",
X		cstype, csmw, csvol, csmass
X	printf "\tComputer         : 3*St %s %.2f MW, %.1f m3, %.2f tons\n",
X		cstype, compmw, compvol, compmass
X	for (i in add_type) 
X		if (add_type[i]=="elec") {
X			printf "\t                 : "
X			if (add_num[i]>1) printf "%d ", add_num[i]
X			printf "%s ", add_name[i]
X			if (add_mw[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f MW ", add_mw[i]
X			if (add_vol[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f m3 ", add_vol[i]
X			if (add_mass[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f tons ", add_mass[i]
X			printf "\n"
X			}
X
X	printf "\nArmament:\n"
X	for (i in add_type) 
X		if (add_type[i]=="arma") {
X			printf "\t                 : "
X			if (add_num[i]>1) printf "%d ", add_num[i]
X			printf "%s ", add_name[i]
X			if (add_mw[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f MW ", add_mw[i]
X			if (add_vol[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f m3 ", add_vol[i]
X			if (add_mass[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f tons ", add_mass[i]
X			printf "\n"
X			}
X
X	printf "\nAccomodations:\n"
X	printf "\tLife Support     : %s %.2f MW, %.1f m3, %d tons for %d m3\n",
X		lstype, lsmw, lsvol, lsmass, lsload
X	for (i in add_type) 
X		if (add_type[i]=="acco") {
X			printf "\t                 : "
X			if (add_num[i]>1) printf "%d ", add_num[i]
X			printf "%s ", add_name[i]
X			if (add_mw[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f MW ", add_mw[i]
X			if (add_vol[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f m3 ", add_vol[i]
X			if (add_mass[i]>=0.1) printf "%.1f tons ", add_mass[i]
X			printf "\n"
X			}
X	}
XEND {
X	if (system("tty >/dev/null")) { calc(); show() }
X	}
/
chmod a+x ship.gawk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #326
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 16 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 327

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Basketball in the Far Future
         2. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)
         3. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)
         4. Re: Basketball in the Far Future
         5. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         6. "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)
         7. Programs in the Digests
         8. QSDS 1.4 on Web Site
         9. Re: Basketball in the Far Future
        10. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)
        11. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)
        12. Skill System
        13. GM Screen
        14. Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)
        15. Founding Document
        16. Defending the Twelve Precepts
        17. Imperial Charter

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:46:28 -0500
Subject: Basketball in the Far Future

OK, for the record (and to put an end to this thread), I say the following:

No matter how much experience you have, you can't (for example) use greater
skill to defend against someone if you are too small or slow to do so.  Nor
could you shoot on someone bigger _and_ quicker (one or the other, but
certainly not both).  About the only place you'd likely kill the guy is on
the free throw line.

So there.  I couldn't beat the average high school player if I had ten
years' experience, given the body I have at present.  Hah!  I have
vindicated my argument concerning stats and skills by sacrificing my
reputation as an athletic god on the altar of Traveller enlightenment.
Heh, I feel better now...  [grin]


Dribbling off his foot,
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:49:07 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin Derek Wildstar,
> 
> > Jump  1       2       3       4       5       6
> > Fuel  10%     20%     30%     40%     50%     60%
> 
>         Whats that normal would be : 10%,15%,20%,25% and so on if
>         I had interpreted the FF&S rules the last years right.
> 
>         FF&S states :
> 
>         " The fuel necessary for a jump of one parsec is equal to
>           the total volume of of the jump drive machinery multiplied
>           by 5 and dividet by the drives maximum jump number. "
> 
>         While the volume of a jump drive is jump+1 percent of the
>         ships displacement, the volume for a full jump would be
>         (jump+1)*5 percent of the hulls displacement.
> 
>         So who is wrong ?

Actually neither is wrong...  Odd isn't it.  TNE with the use of HEPLAR 
has decided that a greater percentage of the ships internal volume will 
be given over to reaction mass, that is manouver fuel.

T4 on the other hand uses Grav-Thrusters, which consume a minimal amount 
of volume, and comperable power levels.  Unfortunately this means that 
without some kind of restraint T4 ships could be armed to the teeth.  The 
restraint is that the fuel necessary to put the ship into J-Space is 
enormous compared to TNE.

You know it's too bad a ship consumes all it's J-Fuel before it jumps, 
according to official documents that is, I've never been one to beleive 
in the official word.  If the ships consumed it over the course of the 
just what you could do is refine enough fuel for J1, which would get you 
into J-Space, plot your J-3 course, flip the switch and refine the rest 
of the fuel in the hole.  This would greatly decrease a ships turn around 
time when doing frontier refuelings.
 
> PS : I think I'll stay with TNE.

I'm not going to make any rash decisions yet, but I'm a great fan of TNE 
and I'm in the process of designing 3 TNE ships, perhaps I'll throw them 
throught the SSDS so T$ players can uses them...

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 10:04:14 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)

kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote:
> > Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
> > Fuel	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%
> 
> 	Whats that normal would be : 10%,15%,20%,25% and so on if
> 	I had interpreted the FF&S rules the last years right.

The numbers you give (10%,15%,20%,25%,30%35%) are correct for T:TNE and are
the values given in Fire, Fusion, and Steel.  However, in T:TNE/FF&S, HEPlaR
is the only available thrust agency, and HEPlaR requires large quantites of
reaction fuel.  Because of this, the jump fuel required was reduced from
Classic Traveller in order to make the higher jump-number starships
possible.

In T4, Thrust Plates have been re-established as the thruster of choice.
The cost of thrust plates has been reduced, and so only ships that are
too low-tech to use Thrust Plates will wind up with HEPlaR (the lower price
of Thrust Plates makes the additional revenue from the cargo that is
carried in place of HEPlaR fuel greater than the additional cost for Thrust
Plates over HEPlaR).

Thrust Plates do not require fuel, so the Classic Traveller jump fuel usage
was restored, to keep the ship design system roughly similar, in terms of
the percentage of the ship used for drives, fuel, and other items.

> 	So who is wrong ?

Neither one. 
Use the FF&S fuel requirements with T:TNE.
Use the T4 fuel requirements with T4.


For completeness sake, I'll note that MegaTraveller also used the lower
jummp fuel requirements.  This was because of the enormous size and fuel
consumption of MegaTraveller power plants.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:24:14 +0000
Subject: Re: Basketball in the Far Future

> So there.  I couldn't beat the average high school player if I had ten
> years' experience, given the body I have at present.  Hah!  I have
> vindicated my argument concerning stats and skills by sacrificing my
> reputation as an athletic god on the altar of Traveller enlightenment.
> Heh, I feel better now...  [grin]
 
You're too modest, Ross.  We all saw you start for the Pistons 6 
times last season.

> Dribbling off his foot,
> Ross Coburn
> ross@odyssee.net

- -Chris 

- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/

------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

One thing to remember is that there are two basic types of constitutions:

1.  Short and general, outlining basic principles and a process for
    interpreting them (the US Constitution is a good example of this,
    which is why the law school I attend has, in addition to a general
    "Constitutional Law" course, courses on specific Amendments).

    Constitution simple, interpretation complex.


2.  Lengthy, containing specific provisions for everything the founders
    could think of.  India's Constitution, which I am told is *over 400
    pages long*, is an example of this.

    Constitution complex, interpretation simple.


It sounds like what Marc Miller wants is the first kind of document.  If
that's the case, *you don't have to put everything in*.  Things you don't
include are then decided either by reference to the general principles
that are outlined in the document (and the "who decides what and how"
stuff is key here), or by incorporating existing practice.

The document, for example, doesn't necessarily have to tell you what
authority Nobles have.  It can say "Nobles owe fealty to the Emperor, and
are entitled to a seat in the Moot," and simply assume that aside from
those changes, Nobles retain whatever authority was granted to them by
existing law.  You can incorporate existing law explicitly ("We affirm the
Sylea Treaty of XXXX"), or implicitly.

Recap:  The critical features are:

a.  Basic Principles
b.  The process for interpretation

All else is unnecessary (though it can provide interesting color; if you
look at what was explicitly stated in our Constitution and what was left
to interpretation, it's entertaining).

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:07:21 -0700
Subject: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)

One thing that has me wondering..

If you take Cleon's words literally:  "Any sentient lifeform within the
Imperial Borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected being, and thus a
citizen of the Imperium."  You have some interesting legal effects....

Place: Efate/Regina, 1107

The PDF Gunners watched their scopes as the Zhodani fleet drew near, falling
into a classic assult orbit.  In defence HQ, General Dien went over his
plans for what promised to be a desperate battle.  Suddenly, a comtech look
up in suprise.

"General, I have the Zhodani in contact, Leader of 10,000 Zhivresiebr for you."

"Put him on the speakers, son"

The sound of the contact wave was broken by the sounds of Galangic spoken
with a smooth Zhodani accent.

"My dear General!  What a suprise to see you hear, but what in the stars are
you doing at traffic control?"

"Preparing to stop your little invasion cold, you psik bastard!" the General
raged into his pickup.

"Invasion?" Zhiv sounded shocked, "My dear sir!  We are a tour group! From
Louzy!  And since we are all Imperial citizens, we.."

The General was out of his chair so fast he almost hit escaoe velocity;
"Imperial.. Citizens??" he asked in a voice that was so tense it squeked.

"Certainly!  As our beloved founder said, as long as you are sentient, it
doesn't how you get here. Tour Director of 10,000 Zhivresiebr out."

Dien sat with his head in his hands, as outside the night was lit by the
re-entry trails of 'Zhivi's Thrifty Tours" landers...


OK a little tongue in cheek, but that wording has to go once the laws get
written.


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|          Third Shift Kramer Krony          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:07:25 -0700
Subject: Programs in the Digests

I hate to sound like a grouch, but could we not post programs/scripts
directly to the list?  Announce that you have it avalible for email, ftp,
web or whatever.

A great number of us feel like we've accomplished something just by turning
the computer on in the morning.

Thank you.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|          Third Shift Kramer Krony          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 11:32:11 -0400
Subject: QSDS 1.4 on Web Site

Since several people have reported errors in the version of QSDS that
appears in the T4 rulebook, I've noticed an increased number of downloads
from my QSDS web site.  Because of this, I've updated QSDS to version 1.4,
which fixes all known errors (both in QSDS v1.3 and in the T4 book).  I
expect to provide a new version of QSDS and an errata page once I recieve
my own copy of T4.

Currently, QSDS 1.4 is available only as a Microsoft Word 6.0 document.
Other formats will be put on the site as the documents become available.

T4 Errata that is corrected by QSDS 1.4 include:
1) The missing Jump Drive Potential table is included in QSDS 1.4
2) Rules and supporting tables are more clearly organized.

QSDS errors that are corrected by version 1.4 include:
1) HEPlaR power requirements are now correct; this is a major change (HEPLaR
   should require 140Mw per dton, not 10Mw/dton as in previous versions) and
   will require re-designs of earlier HEPLaR vessels (hopefully, not many
   designs will be affected).
2) Power plant fuel was increased to 1 year (from six months in previosly
   versions) to be compatible with the other T4 ship and vehicle design
   systems.  Ships designed using earlier versions of QSDS do not need to be
   re-designed; simply note that duration is 6 months.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:49:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Basketball in the Far Future

<---- Begin Included Message ---->
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:24:14 +0000
From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Sender: owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Basketball in the Far Future
To: traveller@MPGN.COM

> So there.  I couldn't beat the average high school player if I had ten
> years' experience, given the body I have at present.  Hah!  I have
> vindicated my argument concerning stats and skills by sacrificing my
> reputation as an athletic god on the altar of Traveller enlightenment.
> Heh, I feel better now...  [grin]
 
You're too modest, Ross.  We all saw you start for the Pistons 6 
times last season.


> Dribbling off his foot,
> Ross Coburn
> ross@odyssee.net

- -Chris 

- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/



<---- End Included Message ---->
At least is wasn't the Clippers!!

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:01:48 -0700
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> One thing that has me wondering..
> 
>If you take Cleon's words literally:  "Any sentient lifeform within the
>Imperial Borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected being, and 
>thus a citizen of the Imperium."  You have some interesting legal 
>effects....
> 
> Place: Efate/Regina, 1107
> It gets even stanger when you think that perhaps, Virus is guarntieed 
citizenship in the Imperium in accordance with this directive.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:29:11 -0800
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)

On 16 Aug 96 at 9:01, derek stanley spewed:

> > It gets even stanger when you think that perhaps, Virus is guarntieed 
> citizenship in the Imperium in accordance with this directive.

Not really...  As I recall, Cleon made it very clear that he was 
denying citizen ships to robots, etc...  Besides which the Imperium 
in TNE (Regency) doesn't even acknowledge that a friendly Virus can 
exist...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:59:38 -0800
Subject: Skill System

>Would MJ be 36% better than whats-his-name?  More?  Less?  I guess that's
>just subjective.
>
>>...definitely NOT like Mike!
>
>...but wouldn't it be nice. <g>
>
>Eris
>
>ps.  I'm not knocking the kid, I just don't remember his name, and I'm sure
>he'll be a very good player...eventually, maybe even as good as MJ, but
>just not his first year.
>- --

He might be 34% better in numerical rating, but because of the normalized
bell curves of the new task system (which, so far, looks just like my games
save for lower dice totals) the difference between a 15 asset and an 18
asset (or any other sample) is dependant upon task difficulty. On 2.5 dice
or less, it's no difference, three dice it's about 5%, on 4 dice it's
closer to 30%, on five dice, as you climb back down the bell,  the
difference becomes marginalized again.

To all the stat whizes: I recall doing the other method (calc probability)
in stats class; the 'brute force' method is faster and easier...

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:59:30 -0800
Subject: GM Screen

Joe Tapped:
>> The screen should make combat, both shipboard and ground, quick and easy
>> to do.  Anything that would require going to the book in the middle of
>> combat is fair game *after* the basic charts of combat and steps to take
>> are listed.
>
>Pete,
>
>I agree with you.  Equipment lists, skill lists, etc. shouldn't be on the
>GM screen.  Penetration values and weapon damage is an iffy thing,
>though, because while the PC sheets should have this information already
>given on them, the NPC's (esp. on-the-spot ones) oftentimes won't.

I whole heartedley DISAGREE. I want  a skill list, and the weapons list.
Why a skill list? it keeps me honest, realistic and fair (Something I get
the feeling a few of you out there have no concept of, but no names from
me.)

>I'd like to see the task system table, the basic combat charts, encounter
>charts (spaceship and patron, not animal), and starship combat charts
>covered.  Hmmm.  Can't think of anything else right now.

yes to these

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 22:14 BST-1
Subject: Re: No Split! (was Re: T4: Task system)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960815190643.21495A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

> > Folks have mentioned ships looking different several times already. 
What's
> > so different?  Are the new ships like the pictures on IG's webpage? 

Of *course* the ships look different - the ones we're used to won't be 
designed for several centuries!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:48:32 -0400
Subject: Founding Document

Yes... keep the document general in nature, I agree with David.

On another note, I'm disappointed IG is having a tough time getting the
hardcovers from the printers.  We may not get our T4 for a couple more weeks!
 This news was posted on the IG Home Page, note the typos on the announcement
reminds me of the gripes of typos and grammar in T4.... not serious, but
irritating.  I already dropped a line to IG to get a spellcheck (what did
they use to write T4 anyway, couldn't have been Word).

Yes... I have Windows and won't gripe about it if someone could point me to a
good reference on using FrontPage (the Web site builder).

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 16 Aug 96 15:40:59 MS
Subject: Defending the Twelve Precepts

>The Twelve Precepts

Responding to my absolutely perfect and flawless Twelve Precepts, Dave Golden 
said:
>I think this document will say almost nothing about the "rights" of
>individuals, concentrating rather on the rights/responsibilities of nobles
>and governments. Everybody else is below the notice of the Imperium, and
>just a matter for the individual worlds. If you start giving people rights,
>you limit what the government can do to them. That's bound to cause some
>governments to resist joining the Imperium. Now, you can PERHAPS limit what
>one government can do to another's subjects, and prohibit something like the
>slave trade between worlds. But an individual world will still be able to
>have slavery.

Yes and no.  I agree that the "formal document" would be focused on things 
Imperial; the common man would have little place in the document.  HOWEVER, the 
3rd Imperium has already been described as expanding relatively peacefully 
initially.  One of the easiest ways of doing that would be to allay the fears 
and worries of the mass of common folks inhabiting the soon to be absorbed 
worlds.  The main document would be pointed at defining the Imperium and its 
benefits for the ruling classes  But there would need to be something there for 
others; thus the Twelve Precepts.  The Precepts are a codicil or addendum to 
the main document, much like the Bill of Rights are to the Constitution.  In 
the case of the Constitution, the codicil has  as much or more weight than the 
original document, but that is the result of time and interpretation.

Remeber, the Imperium is modelled on a feudal structure; it must have some 
measure of support or buy-in from the lower and middle classes, who will be the 
source of the empire's funds and power.

>>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>>origin, is a protected
>>being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.
>
>        Since one of the Emperors Cleon had to enunciate this much later,
>it's obviously not a part of the original founding document.

It was not clear to me exactly when Cleon said this.  It may be that these 
words need to be "blurred" so that it would be necessary for Cleon to slap 
himself on the forehead and clarify it later with the above statement.  Fromt 
he way the original quote was worded, I think he was attempting to clarify the 
definition of "protected being", so perhaps the first precept would be a 
statement about the beneficial and parental relationship between the Imperium 
and its protected beings.

>>3.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of the thoughts and beleifs of 
>>Imperial citizens. 
>
>        This isn't a 20th century democracy. Remember, the Imperium even in
>1100 contains ALL kinds of governments, many of which are completely
>contradictory to this. And why should the Imperium care about Joe Schmoe?

Aha!  The Imperium (rightly) does not care about the hapless Joe.  This precept 
is one of the loophole ones; all it says is "The _Imperium_ will not interfere 
with your being free to think and beleive whatever you want."  It does not say 
"You are free to act on your beleifs" or "The Imperium respectes and agrees 
with your beleifs," and it most especially does not say "The Imperium will 
prevent your planetary government/ruler from interfering with your thoughts and 
beleifs."   Again, this one is a selling point to the non-rulers.

>>4.  A guarantee of the right of free passage for Imperial Citizens within 
>>Imperial space, again subject to the safety, security and well-being of the 
>>Imperium.
>
>Don't spell this out. Assume it under the "free trade"

I think this one is worded badly.  What I was intending here was a statement 
that member worlds could not arbitrarily block space traffic through their 
systems.


>>6.  A guarantee of the right of all Imperial Citizens to due process, subject 
>>to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>
>
>        Ditch this.

Mistype on my part; it was supposed to say Imperial Nobles, not Imperial 
Citizens.  Basically an extension of the Right of Appeal for nobles so that 
nobles beig naughty on member worlds are still tried by the Imperial nobility, 
not the 3rd Circuit Court of the planet Podunk.

>>12.  An acknowledgement that, when a conflict exists between an Imperial
>law or 
>>decree and a law or decree from an Imperial member world or lesser noble, the 
>>Imperial law or decree holds precedence
>
Actually, to be more specific I was thinking "Those powers not specifically 
granted to the several member worlds of the Imperium are reserved to the 
Imperium, and those powers granted to or enacted by the Imperium shall take 
precedence over those of its several member worlds."

Thanks for the insightful response, Dave.  At least _somebody_ read my stuff.  
:-)

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com, scharlto@rtd.com
Chock full o' .sig
and not even on the road

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:12:07 -0500
Subject: Imperial Charter

        Well, here's my draft, banged out while I was waiting for the
Marathon: Infinity Demo to finish downloading.  It includes both text (I
have not counted the words) and "Official Commentary".  I've taken into
account several of the suggestions made over the list to date, as those of
you who made them may recognize (Stu?  Glenn?  Jeff?).

        Those of you who are legislatively savvy will note that the balance
of power is *de jure* massively in favour of the Emperor; the Moot and the
Nobles as individuals are almost wholly dependent on Imperial good will.
However, I think that the practical realities of governing something the
size of the Imperium would mean that the individual Nobles within their
Fiefs, and to a lesser extent the Moot, have much greater power, *de
facto*, since Cleon and his descendants couldn't oversee everything.

        Given the absolute nature of the power being wielded here, I don't
think that it's neccessary to get into much nitty-gritty; thus, this is a
very open-ended document.  It aims to give the Emperor as much elbow room
to rule as possible.  It does not foresee methods of dealing with given
situations; it just creates the power to deal with them.  Thus, the
Imperial Rules of War are, for the moment, not incorporated.  Neither are
any Imperial agencies, Bills of Sophontic Rights, etc.

        It provides for three distinct types of instrument by which the
Emperor may exercise power.  I visualize proclamations as being akin to
legislation; they would be the instrument via which laws of general
application would be declared.  This is how the Basic Law is put into
force.  Decrees would be used to declare special measures applicable to a
given place or situation (such as declaring sector-wide Martial Law or
whatever), and Edicts would be used for executive purposes more specific to
individuals or small groups, such as enfeoffing Nobles, ordering Imperial
servants to perform certain actions, create Imperially-incorporated
corporations, etc.

        The jurisdiction and trade provisions at Articles 6 and 8 are to be
read as allowing near-perfect freedom of trade in areas under Imperial Law,
but allowing local governments to, say, outlaw the importation of clothes
*into its jurisdiction* if its laws forbid wearing clothes.  However, a
trader could ship a load of petticoats *through* its territory so long as
they are to destined for  another jurisdiction.

        Finally, note the succession provisions at Article 2; I left these
deliberately vague in order to provide for chaos and confusion conducive to
good campaign scenarios :).

        So... comments?


Proclamation of the Restoration of the Grand Imperium of the Stars
and the Rule of Man


1.  Whereas it is in the interest of all sophonts that peace, order, and
good government be established and the freedom of trade maintained, the
Grand Imperium of the Stars, by Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty Cleon
Zhunatsu, Heir to the Imperial Throne, is hereby restored at this first day
of the Year 0 at [fill in place].  The planets of the former Sylean
Federation are hereby declared to be the Worlds of the Imperium.

2.  The August Person of His Imperial Majesty, and those of his hereditary
successors, is the font of Justice and Authority, and Supreme Commander of
all Imperial Armed Forces.  His Imperial Majesty dispenses Justice and
exercises Authority over all the Worlds of the Imperium.

3.  All the various persons resident upon the Worlds of the Imperium, or in
the Spaces Between The Worlds are the subjects of His Imperial Majesty, and
are Citizens of the Imperium.  Any world that petitions to become a World
of the Imperium, or which is attached by conquest or other means to the
Imperium, shall become a World of the Imperium, at the discretion of His
Imperial Majesty, by Special Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty.

4.  His Imperial Majesty may, at his discretion, enfeoff those of his
subjects that he deems worthy of such honour as Nobles, in ranks and
gradations such as he may deem desirable, to enforce Imperial Law and
exercise Imperial Authority by delegation in such regions of Space as His
Imperial Majesty deems fitting, subject to any Edicts, Decrees, or
Proclamations emitted by His Imperial Majesty.

5.  His Imperial Majesty shall retain full jurisdiction over the Spaces
Between The Worlds.

6.  His Imperial Majesty shall permit the various laws and governments of
each World of the Imperium to continue to run to a distance of 100
diameters of the planet, asteroid, or other body upon which their
jurisdiction is situated, subject to any Special Edicts, Decrees, or
Proclamations to the contrary, save upon the territory given over to Port
facilities, which shall be be under the jurisdiction of Imperial Law.

7.  All Worlds of the Imperium shall adopt the Imperial Calendar and the
Imperial Credit as the currency of trade between the Worlds of the
Imperium.

8.  The Freedom of Lawful Trade, being the lifeblood of the Imperium and
the living of His Imperial Majesty's subjects, shall only be interfered
with by Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation emitted by His Imperial
Majesty.

9.  Those subjects which His Imperial Majesty has enfeoffed as Nobles shall
be members of the Moot.  The Moot may advise His Imperial Majesty and
deliberate upon such matters as His Imperial Majesty may delegate to them.
In addition, consent of a bare majority of the Moot is required for any
Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation to enter into force.  The Moot shall
be empowered to legislate upon any subject upon which His Imperial Majesty
has not already legislated.  His Imperial Majesty may, unless opposed by no
less than nine tenths of the members of the Moot is session at the time, at
any time revoke any or all legislation passed by the Moot, and pass Edicts,
Decrees, or Proclamations in its place.  The Moot shall be convened and
dismissed at the discretion of His Imperial Majesty.


           Official Commentary to the Proclamation of Restoration:



Art. 1  A preamble whereby the Imperium is declared to have been done and
its raison d'etre outlined.  The "peace, order, and good government"
wording has a long historical lineage that can be traced back to the
Constitution Act, 1867 of a Terran nation named Canada.  It should be noted
that freedom of trade is granted importance equal to these in the
Restoration Proclamation.

Art. 2  This Article clearly establishes that the source of all Imperial
Powers is the Person of His Imperial Majesty: He is the fount of all
Imperial Law, Authority,and Power, whether it is exercised by His Imperial
Majesty or those upon whom he has conferred Nobility.  It also defines the
territorial scope of His Imperial Majesty's jurisdiction, i.e. The Worlds
of The Imperium and The Spaces Between The Worlds.  Finally, it also states
that Imperial Succession was hereditary in nature, although as drafted it
only requires that the Heir to the Imperial Throne be a member of the
Imperial Family: it does not provide any rules for the succession.  Thus,
choice of a successor is implicitly left up to His Imperial Majesty.

Art. 3  This Article grants His Imperial Majesty personal jurisdiction over
all persons within the Imperium; the use of the term "persons" brings legal
persons, such as corporations or other legally created bodies with status
similar to that of individuals, under His Imperial majesty's jurisdiction.

Art. 4  This Article defines the Imperial Discretion to enfeoff Nobles; it
is deliberately left vague in order to adjust the size of and rankings
within the Nobility, and the various regions over which the may rule by
delegation, in order to suit the changing needs of a growing Imperium.  It
should be noted that the power to supersede Noble jurisdiction was reserved
by His Imperial Majesty.  Unfortunately, the explicit power to disenfeoff
Nobles was not drafted into the Restoration Proclamation; however, it is
generally accepted (save by those so disenfeoffed) that His Imperial
Majesty, by enfeoffing another Noble to rule over the same territory, may
thereby indirectly disenfeoff Nobles.  It should be noted that the exercise
of Imperial Authority also includes the power to enfeoff lesser Nobles.

Art. 5  This article reserves the Spaces Between the Worlds, a term which
includes both normal and Jump space, to Imperial Jurisdiction.

Art. 6  This article provides that local law shall continue to run
following their submission to Imperial Rule, unless His Imperial Majesty,
by Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation (which requires consent of the
Moot) provides otherwise.  Spaceports, however, are to be enclaves governed
by Imperial Law.  It leaves the question of taxation and duties owed to the
Imperium up to the discretion of His Imperial Majesty, who may, by Special
Edict, Decree, or Proclamation (which would be subject to consent by the
Moot) impose such taxes or other measures as He sees fit.

Art. 7  This Article provides that in the interests of all, the Imperial
Calendar shall be adopted throughout the Imperium, and that the Imperial
Credit shall be the medium of interplanetary trade.

Art. 8  This Article enshrines the Freedom of Lawful Trade as sacred, and
subject only to regulation via Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation,
which, as noted, requires the consent of the Moot to come into force.
This, when read in combination with Article 6, is to be interpreted as
forbidding any interference with lawful trade, i.e. trade in anything not
illegal under Imperial Law, in areas under Imperial Jurisdiction (i.e. The
Space Between The Worlds and Imperial starports).  The Worlds of The
Imperium may regulate trade in the areas under their own jurisdiction.

Art. 9  This Article creates the Moot, and defines its membership, role,
subsidiary legislative power.  It provides that a bare majority of the Moot
shall be required to consent Special Edicts, Decrees, or Proclamations, and
that a supermajority of no less than 90% of its membership shall be
required to block revocation of Moot legislation by His Imperial Majesty.


*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #327
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 17 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 328

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: [T96#321] Skills and Attributes
         2. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
         3. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
         4. Re: Imperial Charter
         5. Drat and Curses!
         6. none
         7. Founding document
         8. Re: Drat and Curses!
         9. Re: none
        10. Re: Drat and Curses!
        11. B-school case study
        12. Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)
        13. Imperial establishing document

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 21:45:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#321] Skills and Attributes

T::>Think about it!  "Hum, take a +1 in history or a +1 in EDU, and therefore
 ::>raise history and 6 more skills?  Which you should I take?"  <g> I can
 ::>really see people using strategies to maximize their Attributes, and then
 ::>adding a bunch of Skill 1's.  This would leverage their investment much
 ::>more than investing directly in skills.

T::>I honestly think the use of attributes as big chunks of a skill asset is
 ::>wrong.  No, "wrong" isn't the right word..unrealistic, that's it!
 ::>Unrealistic.

 Not really - especially if one level of attribute does _not_
 equal one level-equivalent of skill (if it does, as written,
 tweak as needed). The attribute is representative of
 information or ability that is applicable generally to a wide
 range of specific skills - or, more accurately, to a wide range
 of tasks where any of those specific skills will be helpful.
 In a sense, it's a limited Jack-of-all-Trades skill, that can
 be used as a favorable modifier to the probability of
 successfully completing a task.

 Take EDU, for example.  It doesn't necessarily refer to
 specific knowledge (that's what skills are for), but it can
 legitimately be representative of reasoning and analytical
 skills/abilities that might allow you to apply other knowledge
 to a task at hand.  INT might also represent something similar.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ I believe in The Divine Right of SysOps.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 21:45:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

Marc Miller writes...

X::>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
 ::>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
 ::>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions .

 [Deleted]

 Herewith my proposed Imperial Charter (my personal notes are in
 {} braces):
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Preamble - Proclamation of the Imperium

 We, Cleon Zhunastu, recognizing that the present structure
 governing the Sylean Federation is inadequate for governance of
 a necessarily expanded entity, and with the acquiescence of the
 present Government of the Sylean Federation, declare that the
 Sylean Federation has outlived its usefulness, and is
 dissolved.  We further proclaim that the worlds formerly of the
 Sylean Federation shall be members of a new entity, to be
 referred to henceforth as "the Imperium".  We further proclaim
 that we, Cleon Zhunastu, are assuming Imperial power for the
 period necessary to ensure a stable and enduring Imperium.

 Article I - Imperial Governance, Membership, Citizenship

 The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any
 member world.  Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to
 provide for the defense of all of the member worlds as a group,
 and to bring the rule of law to the spaces between worlds.

 A world shall be defined as a body of planetary size that is
 populated.  Included in this definition shall be planetoid
 belts, defined as a region of space around a central star to
 which the component planetoids are gravitationally bound, such
 that not less than two-thirds of the planetoids so bound shall
 have not less than two-thirds of their respective orbits within
 that region.

 Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim
 allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall
 become a member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other
 members of the Imperium.  Member worlds shall govern themselves
 as they see proper, provided that such government does not
 violate Imperial laws.

 The exclusive jurisdiction of a member world shall extend to
 100 (one hundred) times the diameter of the member world,
 measured from the center of mass of the world.  The exclusive
 jurisdiction of a member world that is a planetoid belt shall
 extend throughout the region that defines the member world, and
 to all planetary bodies or planetoids that traverse that
 region, and to 100 diameters of such planetary bodies
 or planetoids or 1000 miles, whichever is greater, measured from
 the center of mass of the planetary body or planetoid.

 A member world that is the sole member world in its stellar
 system, and which has the technological capability and
 sufficient personnel to enforce its laws throughout the system,
 may, upon proper notification to and acceptance by the
 Imperium, exercise exclusive jurisdiction throughout the
 stellar system.  If a second world shall apply for membership
 in the Imperium from such system, the first member world shall
 have the right to veto such membership.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit governmental entities superior to the member worlds but
 subordinate to the Imperium.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit bureaus and agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial
 will.

 The Imperium considers as citizens any sophont native to or
 naturalized by a member world of the Imperium.

 A world governed by a member world is not itself a member
 world, but is considered to be part of the member world, and
 all inhabitants thereof are considered to have the same rights,
 protections, and obligations under Imperial law as the
 inhabitants of the member world.

 Article II - The Emperor, Hereditary Succession

 The Powers of the Imperium shall be vested in an Emperor, who
 shall maintain that title and those powers until his death or
 voluntary abdication.  Upon such death or abdication, the title
 and powers shall pass to the oldest child of the Emperor,
 provided that the child shall have been publicly acknowledged
 as the Emperor's by the Emperor, and providing that there are
 no conditions which would disqualify the child as fit to
 maintain the Powers of the Imperium.

 Article III - The Moot, Nobility
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Will Rogers never met a lawyer.



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 21:45:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

(Continued from previous message)

 The recognized nobles of the Imperium shall provide their
 advice and counsel to the Emperor prior to any legislation or
 action by the Emperor.  The recognized nobles, acting in this
 capacity, shall be designated the Imperial Moot.  The Imperial
 Moot shall have two powers over the Emperor:  They shall have
 the power to declare the dissolution of the Imperium, and they
 shall have the power to disqualify an Imperial Heir Apparent
 from ascending to the Imperial Power.  However, the latter
 power shall only be exercised for just and proper cause.  If
 the Emperor dies or abdicates having provided no heirs either
 by blood or by adoption, or if no heir of the Emperor is found
 fit to maintain the Powers of the Imperium, the Moot shall have
 the power to designate the recipient of the Imperial Powers.
 Should the Moot find it necessary to exercise this power, the
 designee shall be a citizen of the Imperium.

 A recognized noble of the Imperium shall be a sophont granted a
 noble title by the Emperor or by one empowered by the Emperor to
 grant noble titles.  Noble titles granted by member worlds may
 be recognized by the Imperium on a case-by-case basis.

 Article IV - Free Trade

 The Imperium shall support free trade between its members.  No
 member may impose import or export tariffs on any goods
 involved in trade between member planets.  No goods may be
 barred from trade by a member because of place of origin or
 destination.  No member shall engage in piracy or smuggling,
 nor allow its territory to be used for piracy or smuggling, nor
 shall issue letters of marque or other permission for ships
 operating in its territory to engage in piracy or smuggling.

 Article V - Standards

 The Imperium shall conduct all of its activities according to
 the Imperial Calendar, which shall consist of a Year made up of
 365 (three hundred sixty five) consecutive Days of 24 (twenty
 four) consecutive hours each.  The Days shall be numbered 1
 (one) to 365 (three hundred sixty five) in order.  The day that
 this Charter shall become effective shall be designated Day 1
 of Year 0 on the Imperial Calendar.  Day 1 of any Year on the
 Imperial Calendar (henceforth Imperial Year) shall be
 designated as an Imperial Holiday, named Holiday.

 The unit of exchange in interstellar commerce, and between the
 Imperium and the member worlds, shall be the Imperial Credit.
 The Imperial Credit shall be valued independently of the value
 of any coin, currency, or value of any member world.  The
 Imperium shall have the responsibility and power to control the
 value of the Imperial Credit.

 The Imperium shall use as its standard of measurement the
 presently accepted standard measures and nomenclature used by
 the Sylean Federation.  These standards shall be designated the
 Standard Imperial Measurement System (SI).

 {Here ends the matters that Marc specifically mentioned in his
 post.  The rest (and some of the above) is all "etc."}

 Article VI

 Chattel slavery shall not exist in the Imperium, nor on its
 member worlds, nor on any world with which a member world shall
 have dealings.

 Article VII

 The governance and operation of starports is reserved to the
 Imperium.  Movement of material and sophonts between the
 starport and the member world shall be controlled by the member
 world, subject to Imperial laws governing such movement.  The
 territory of a starport shall be excluded from the jurisdiction
 of the member world, and no material or sophonts shall enter
 the starport area from the member world without the express
 consent of the starport operating authority.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 I can't think of anything else that's needed, and I suspect
 that my verbosity can be reduced.  Comments?  Debate?
 Amendments?  I'll keep quiet on this topic until August 21,
 unless I am specifically asked to clarify or comment.  If you
 are asking for such clarification or comment, please ensure
 that you ask me _by_name_ - I won't respond to "what does
 'dealings' mean in Article VI"; you'll have to ask "Jeff, what
 did you have in mind when you said 'dealings'?" (i.e., if the
 question does not have my name in it, I won't answer.)

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Will Rogers never met a lawyer.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 22:35:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Charter

On 08/16/96 at 09:12 PM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:

This is the best I've seen so far!  A few comments are included within the
document...

>Proclamation of the Restoration of the Grand Imperium of the Stars and the
>Rule of Man

[Restoration is appropriate.  This isn't the creation of *an*
Imperium, but the continuation of THE Imperium.]

>1.  Whereas it is in the interest of all sophonts that peace, order, and
>good government be established and the freedom of trade maintained, the
>Grand Imperium of the Stars, by Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty Cleon
>Zhunatsu, Heir to the Imperial Throne, is hereby restored at this first
>day of the Year 0 at [fill in place].  The planets of the former Sylean
>Federation are hereby declared to be the Worlds of the Imperium.

[The word stability rather than good government might be more
appropriate.]

[Because this is a restoration, *all* the systems once attached to the
Imperium should be considered *still* attached.  They should be *invited*
to reaffirm their fealty to the Emperior and the Imperium. A general goal
of extending the peace, order, and stability of the Imperium throughout all
space should be expressed.]

>2.  The August Person of His Imperial Majesty, and those of his hereditary
>successors, is the font of Justice and Authority, and Supreme Commander of
>all Imperial Armed Forces.  His Imperial Majesty dispenses Justice and
>exercises Authority over all the Worlds of the Imperium.

[..but graciously allows local governments to continue governing their
worlds.]

>3.  All the various persons resident upon the Worlds of the Imperium, or
>in the Spaces Between The Worlds are the subjects of His Imperial Majesty,
>and are Citizens of the Imperium.  Any world that petitions to become a
>World of the Imperium, or which is attached by conquest or other means to
>the Imperium, shall become a World of the Imperium, at the discretion of
>His Imperial Majesty, by Special Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty.

[Residing is a little bit too encompassing.  All persons *born* within
Imperial Systems or in space between Imperial Systems, and all persons who
have registered their intent, pledged *fealty* to His Imperial Majesty, and
been accepted into His graceious protection are Citizens of the Imperium,
with all rights and responsibilities therein.]

[Systems would pledge fealty to His Imperial Majesty and petition for His
gracious recogniztion and protection.  Don't directly mention conquest!!! 
Every system that comes in will pleage fealty and petition..even if it's
the nobels and/or government put in place by the the Imperial Navy after
they depose the former government. <g>]

>4.  His Imperial Majesty may, at his discretion, enfeoff those of his
>subjects that he deems worthy of such honour as Nobles, in ranks and
>gradations such as he may deem desirable, to enforce Imperial Law and
>exercise Imperial Authority by delegation in such regions of Space as His
>Imperial Majesty deems fitting, subject to any Edicts, Decrees, or
>Proclamations emitted by His Imperial Majesty.

>5.  His Imperial Majesty shall retain full jurisdiction over the Spaces
>Between The Worlds.

>6.  His Imperial Majesty shall permit the various laws and governments of
>each World of the Imperium to continue to run to a distance of 100
>diameters of the planet, asteroid, or other body upon which their
>jurisdiction is situated, subject to any Special Edicts, Decrees, or
>Proclamations to the contrary, save upon the territory given over to Port
>facilities, which shall be be under the jurisdiction of Imperial Law.

[Don't limit it to Port facilities, because it will apply to Navy, Army and
Scout bases as well.  Simply say...save upon territory given over to
Imperial use, which shall be under the jurisdictioin of Imperial Law.
Imperial use can then be interpreted to mean Port facilities, Military
bases, Research facilities, or *anything* else. A broad interpretation of
this provision would provide for
interdicted systems as well.]

>7.  All Worlds of the Imperium shall adopt the Imperial Calendar and the
>Imperial Credit as the currency of trade between the Worlds of the
>Imperium.

>8.  The Freedom of Lawful Trade, being the lifeblood of the Imperium and
>the living of His Imperial Majesty's subjects, shall only be interfered
>with by Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation emitted by His Imperial
>Majesty.

[Slight change:  ...Majesty's subjects, shall not be interfered with,
except by Imperial Edict, Decree or Proclamation.]

>9.  Those subjects which His Imperial Majesty has enfeoffed as Nobles
>shall be members of the Moot.  The Moot may advise His Imperial Majesty
>and deliberate upon such matters as His Imperial Majesty may delegate to
>them. In addition, consent of a bare majority of the Moot is required for
>any Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation to enter into force.  The Moot
>shall be empowered to legislate upon any subject upon which His Imperial
>Majesty has not already legislated.  His Imperial Majesty may, unless
>opposed by no less than nine tenths of the members of the Moot is session
>at the time, at any time revoke any or all legislation passed by the Moot,
>and pass Edicts, Decrees, or Proclamations in its place.  The Moot shall
>be convened and dismissed at the discretion of His Imperial Majesty.

[This is the only Article with which I have a real problem.  The Moot is
granted too much power.  I never saw the Moot as a
legislator, dealing with laws, edicts or decrees.  I saw it more as a the
public expression of the Fealty between the Citizens of the Imperium and
it's Imperial Majesty.]

[It appears to me that the Moot really only had two functions:  (1) They
could disolve the Imperium by publicly renouncing their fealty; (2) They
could confirm the Emperor by declareing their fealty to Him. To my
knowledge, they did *not* have the power to pass edicts or legislation,
whether by majority, super-majority or unanimous consent.  Therefore, I
would limit their role to the following:]

The Moot, by unanimous public acclaimation and in the presence of His
Imperial Majesty by individually renouncing their fealty, may disolve the
Grand Imperium of Stars and revoke all authority exercised thereby.

  [I'd suggest that they have to do this 3 times on consecutive
   days.  So yes they can disolve the Imperium, but by ghod it had
   not only better be unanimous, but they better have *all* the
   powers lined up with them or they'll never live to do it. <g>]

The Moot, by unanimous and public acclaimation, will confirm the authority
of the Imperial Personage, pledging fealty and receiving His gracious
protection.

   [Notice I didn't say they elected the Emperor.  I said that they
    will *confirm* his authority and exchange pledges of fealty.
    This leaves it open as to how the Emperor is actually selected,
    as we all know, but does give the Moot a role to play.  A role
    that *could* include background King-making.]
   
A feudal structure is based on mutual rights and responsibilies, and an
exchange of pledges.  I see the Moot as being where the Nobels in person
and the public by proxy exchange these pledges with the Emperor.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 21:31:30 -0500
Subject: Drat and Curses!

On 08/16/96 at 08:01 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> On another note, I'm disappointed IG is having a tough time getting the
>> hardcovers from the printers.  We may not get our T4 for a couple
>> more weeks...

I hadn't seen that!  Lamantations and knashing of teeth!

>Boo!  Hiss!  And other generally negative noises.  Drat, drat, drat. Now I
>have to wait another two weeks (or more) before I am able to  discuss T4
>with more than a few people.  Sigh.

I've got a hardback on-order, and I figured to get a softbound from my
local game store.  The hardback is my 'keeper', the softbound I'll wear
out. 

I've called Labyrinth, the game store here in town, every day this week
asking, "Is the new Traveller in?"  Yesterday, while the guy was checking
to see if it had come in I heard in the backgound, "A new Traveller?  I
want a copy of that too!"  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:10:57 -0400
Subject: none

Steve

> My only beef was motivation;  "you idiots flew past the asteroid
> belt and two gas gaints surrounded by icy moons to get WATER?"

No, no, no. _food_ and water, remember?

And sex, of course...them iquanas was randy suckers, they was.

LKW

------------------------------

From: Wesley.Esser@haledorr.com
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:27:50 -0400
Subject: Founding document

         My take on this is that you have to look at the political milleu
         that the Imperium rose out of.  I would assume that there was a
         founding group of planetary nobles, both on Sylea and on other
         worlds of the Federation, who supported Cleon's assumption of
         imperial power.  I can see this scenario:

         Cleon, holder of some moderately prestigious noble title, and
         powerful because of his wealth and industrial holdings, sees the
         chaos and inefficiency of the Federation.  He starts lobbying the
         major nobles to support him in reviving the Imperiate and his
         assertion of his claim of to the title.  For whatever reason,
         enough nobles support his claim that at a Federation gathering the
         nobles "spontaneously" swear swear an oath of fealty to Cleon:  by
         acclaimation of the gathered nobles back Cleon Zhunastu's claim to
         be the sole remaining heir of the 2nd imperium (and by extension,
         the 1st).

         Overwhelmed by the outpouring of support, Cleon accepts the title,
         affirms the nobles' titles and priveleges, and guarantees their
         sovreign control of their holdings.  In his acceptance he states
         the principles of the empire: free trade, local sovreignty, noble
         priveledge.  The individual nobles in turn pledge that they will
         support Cleon and the Empire.

         After this, one would assume that there would be some minor
         skirmishing between factions supporting Cleon and those who
         favored the Federation (or perhaps a rival claimant).  This could
         either be a major struggle or a minor annoyance, whichever seems
         more interesting from the storytelling point.  In the end, Cleon
         prevails, with the support of the noble familys.  Many nobles are
         dead, and Cleon takes the opportunity to create new ones, beholden
         most strongly to him.  As new planets are assumed into the Empire,
         the local nobility are made Imperial nobles.  When no local
         nobility exists, an Imperial governor is appointed (usually a non-
         inheriting child of an important noble family) and given a title
         comensurate with the status of the planet.

         The problem with the previously suggested documents (IMHO) is that
         they are too specific.  I never saw the Imperium as a
         constitutional monarchy, with an Emporor limited by law, but as a
         construct built out of the tug-of-war between the nobles, as
         represented by the Moot, and the Emporer.  When the Emporer is
         weak, as at the begining of a reign, or during a regency, the Moot
         will assert it's powers, when the Emporer is strong, the Moot will
         receede in importance.  Tradition is the basis of the power play,
         and expediency, not law.  The only document per se is the oath of
         fealty taken by Cleon in response to his coronation, outlining
         person rights and responsibilities between the Emporer and the
         nobles. This would be the basis of all Imperial coronations...
         maybe something like this:


                          OATH OF SYLEA

         KNOW ALL that we, CLEON ZHUNASTU, Lord of Sylea, Protector of
         Terra and Vland, Emperor of Man, willingly and fully accept the
         charge put upon me by the acclaimation of the asembled Lords, and
         recalim with a glad heart the Imperial throne, so long vacant.

         WE joyously hear the solemn oaths of fealty of the Lords, and
         accept their pledge of service, loyalty and honor to us and our
         heirs, and confirm to them and their heirs all titles, estates,
         priveledges and responsibilities as recognized by law and
         tradition.

         WE also confirm the right of the assmbled Lords to the swift and
         fair resolution of their grievances in the courts of their Lieges.
         Furthermore, the Dukes of the Realm are charged with the
         responsibility of hearing all appeals, and of appealing to the
         Emporer all cases which, by right and merit, demand Imperial
         justice.

         FURTHERMORE, we remind the Lords that the free passage of persons
         and goods among the stars being the primary wealth of the Realm,
         that they are obliged to secure and defend the starlanes from any
         interference, and in whatever manner their Leige requires.

         IN REMEMBERANCE OF THIS OATH, every 365th day shall be set aside
         for the renewal of oaths and the elevation of the worthy to the
         ranks of the nobility.

         Taken this 1st day of the Holiday year, 0

         -------------

         I see all the rest - the right of assasination, the rules of war,
         the naming of nobles to represent worlds that have no local
         nobles, etc, as changes wrought as the Imperium expanded.  This
         provides a reason for the concentration of nobles in the Domain of
         Sylea, and fits with the notion that many of the noble titles and
         houses predate the 3rd Imperium.  The give and take of how
         Imperial law took shape over the next 1000 years is the fun part.


         Just my .02cr - comments are greatly appreciated.

         Wes Esser
         wesley.esser@haledorr.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:26:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Drat and Curses!

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I've got a hardback on-order, and I figured to get a softbound from my
> local game store.  The hardback is my 'keeper', the softbound I'll wear
> out. 

I can't decide whether I am proud or ashamed to say that I have already 
worn my softbound out. [G]  I bought it as a "who cares what happens to 
it" copy, so I'm not upset about it.  I creased the spine getting it 
completely flat so I could photocopy the character sheet properly.  I 
also bent the front cover when I accidentally dropped it on Sunday, the 
second day I had it!  

Perhaps it is the abuse I've put it to, but the cover doesn't seem to be 
too sturdy.  The black color is already flaking off...

> I've called Labyrinth, the game store here in town, every day this week
> asking, "Is the new Traveller in?"  Yesterday, while the guy was checking
> to see if it had come in I heard in the backgound, "A new Traveller?  I
> want a copy of that too!"  <g>

It's good to know more than just those of us on-line have a desire to get 
the new Traveller. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:36:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: none

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Steve
> 
> > My only beef was motivation;  "you idiots flew past the asteroid
> > belt and two gas gaints surrounded by icy moons to get WATER?"
> 
> No, no, no. _food_ and water, remember?

Humans: the OTHER other white meat. 

Story idea for any budding authors out there:  Aliens have already 
secretly arrived in America, and have been feeding off of us for 
decades.  By the 1950's, they had noticed that their mortality rates had 
gotten much worse.  After doing exhaustive research, they discovered that 
the cause was the high fat content of their American diet.  So, 
they began taking over the fitness, fashion, and advertising industries 
in order to get us to eat better and excercise more.  By the mid-70's, 
their mortality rates were back in line.

Next time you see an Ab Master or Butt Buster infomercial, or an 
advertisement featuring one of those "waif" models, remember who is really 
responsible for it and why they're doing it.

[Brought to you by the American Paranoia Society.]


> And sex, of course...them iquanas was randy suckers, they was.

Well, yeah.  What would be the point of coming to Earth, meeting a 
completely different, intelligent species, if not to have sex with them?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 23:55:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Drat and Curses!

On 08/16/96 at 11:26 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> I've called Labyrinth, the game store here in town, every day this week
>> asking, "Is the new Traveller in?"  Yesterday, while the guy was checking
>> to see if it had come in I heard in the backgound, "A new Traveller?  I
>> want a copy of that too!"  <g>

>It's good to know more than just those of us on-line have a desire to get 
>the new Traveller. :)

Well yeah, but I'm worried!  What if they sell out before I get down there? 
They won't let me reserve a copy, grumble, grumble. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: B-school case study

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>Let's see...we have:
>
>1)  Lawsuit
>2)  GDW spreading itself too thin (talent, capital, etc.)
>3)  Talent flight (Guessing here - not saying there was no talent left, but
[deletions]
>Others?  [May as well write the "death of GDW" history/case study now rather

This could make a good business school case study.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:12:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Rules OK! (my version of these threads;-)

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

>At 01:57 pm 8/2/96 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>However, does sending stuff to these mailing list count as "publishing"? 
>>No-one ever answered my query on this. My hope is that the lists can be 
>>used to knock the rough edges off an article (or plug the gaping holes) 
>>so that the final submitted work is as good as you can make it. Any 
>>copyright lawyers out there (Glenn, ideas)?

I'll bounce it off my IP friends (I'm a securities lawyer) and see what spin
they have on it.  Bear in mind that if you ask three lawyers a casual
question you might get six opinions.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial establishing document

Jeff, it's too long.  The establishing document ("1,000 words or less") just
declares the establishment of the Imperium.  The nitty-gritty (which you
detailed nicely, and with which I initially generally agree) shows up in the
Imperial edicts and in various agreements among the various parties that
constitute the Imperium (the Emperor, the nobility, and the worlds).  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #328
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 17 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 329

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document
         3. Re: none
         4. Re: GM Screen
         5. Re: Change in List Addresses
         6. Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet
         7. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)
         8. Re: Defending the Twelve Precepts
         9. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)
        10. Re: Programs in the Digests
        11. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)
        12. T4 ETA...
        13. Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)
        14. Re: Founding document
        15. Re: Drat and Curses!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document

Here are a few glosses on my quick draft of an Imperial establishing document.

>Declaration of the Imperium
>
>1.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, and the Nobility and Worlds of this region, hereby
establish >and declare the Third Imperium.  

The parties forming the Imperium are (1) Cleon; (2) the Nobility, which
already existed and was largely composed of descendants of Terran proconsuls
dispersed to govern the Ziru Sirka after the Interstellar Wars; and (3) the
Worlds that are not directly governed by nobles (i.e, most worlds).  The
rights and place of groups -- what I have elsewhere in these lists called
"collective rights" -- are much more important than those of individuals.

The people themselves -- the Citizens of the Imperium -- aren't parties to
this agreement.  Actually, everyone is a citizen of his or her world first,
and of the Imperium second.

Imperial citizens don't have Imperial rights of due process or equal
protection, because if they did, the Imperial government would be hopelessly
enmeshed in governing the Worlds.  The United States government, by
contrast, constantly intervenes in state governance where the state is
violating civil rights recognized under the federal constitution.  That's
not the situation in the Imperium.

>3.  The Worlds retain their own sovereignty, but hereby declare their
everlasting >allegiance to the Imperium.  Worlds subsequently admitted to
the Imperium shall declare >their everlasting allegiance to the Imperium,
and shall subscribe to this Declaration. >The Worlds have jurisdiction over
all matters within their star systems, except where >the exercise of such
jurisdiction interferes with Imperial jurisdiction.

Actually, the Worlds don't have full sovereignty, because they don't have
the right to determine their own foreign policy with regard to
extra-Imperial polities.  Maybe "suzerainty" is a better, vaguer, term.

>4.  The Nobles hereby declare their everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon
Zhunastu, and >to our heirs and legitimate successors, and to their own
lieges and vassals.  Nobles >subsequently created shall declare their
everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon Zhunastu, >and to our heirs and
legitimate successors, and to their own lieges and vassals, and >shall
subscribe to this Declaration.

The Imperium thus expressly ratified the pre-existing political and economic
relationships among the nobles inter se, and between the worlds and nobles.

>7.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, are hereby declared Emperor and absolute ruler of
this >Imperium, ultimate liege lord of the Nobles, and commander in chief of
all armed forces >of the Imperium, for as long as We shall live.  Our heirs
and legitimate successors >shall become Emperor upon Our death or
abdication, as shall their heirs and legitimate >successors, in perpetuity.
We, Cleon Zhunastu, and our heirs and legitimate successors >in perpetuity,
are hereby empowered to rule by decree, and to establish and disband and
>empower such institutions and organizations as may from time to time be
necessary to >govern the Imperium.

There is, as discussed by others, no provision for removal of the Emperor.
The Emperor either dies or abdicates.  The "legitimate successors" language
allows an Emperor to select a successor, and allows the Emperor's family
members to take their shots at the throne if no successor has been selected.
"Legitimate" means legitimate in light of pre-existing noble practice
(primogeniture or whatever might have been in place; I suppose something
much more flexible than primogeniture).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: hiwg - The Imperial Establishing Document

Here are a few glosses on my quick draft of an Imperial establishing document.

>Declaration of the Imperium
>
>1.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, and the Nobility and Worlds of this region, hereby
establish >and declare the Third Imperium.  

The parties forming the Imperium are (1) Cleon; (2) the Nobility, which
already existed and was largely composed of descendants of Terran proconsuls
dispersed to govern the Ziru Sirka after the Interstellar Wars; and (3) the
Worlds that are not directly governed by nobles (i.e, most worlds).  The
rights and place of groups -- what I have elsewhere in these lists called
"collective rights" -- are much more important than those of individuals.

The people themselves -- the Citizens of the Imperium -- aren't parties to
this agreement.  Actually, everyone is a citizen of his or her world first,
and of the Imperium second.

Imperial citizens don't have Imperial rights of due process or equal
protection, because if they did, the Imperial government would be hopelessly
enmeshed in governing the Worlds.  The United States government, by
contrast, constantly intervenes in state governance where the state is
violating civil rights recognized under the federal constitution.  That's
not the situation in the Imperium.

>3.  The Worlds retain their own sovereignty, but hereby declare their
everlasting >allegiance to the Imperium.  Worlds subsequently admitted to
the Imperium shall declare >their everlasting allegiance to the Imperium,
and shall subscribe to this Declaration. >The Worlds have jurisdiction over
all matters within their star systems, except where >the exercise of such
jurisdiction interferes with Imperial jurisdiction.

Actually, the Worlds don't have full sovereignty, because they don't have
the right to determine their own foreign policy with regard to
extra-Imperial polities.  Maybe "suzerainty" is a better, vaguer, term.

>4.  The Nobles hereby declare their everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon
Zhunastu, and >to our heirs and legitimate successors, and to their own
lieges and vassals.  Nobles >subsequently created shall declare their
everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon Zhunastu, >and to our heirs and
legitimate successors, and to their own lieges and vassals, and >shall
subscribe to this Declaration.

The Imperium thus expressly ratified the pre-existing political and economic
relationships among the nobles inter se, and between the worlds and nobles.

>7.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, are hereby declared Emperor and absolute ruler of
this >Imperium, ultimate liege lord of the Nobles, and commander in chief of
all armed forces >of the Imperium, for as long as We shall live.  Our heirs
and legitimate successors >shall become Emperor upon Our death or
abdication, as shall their heirs and legitimate >successors, in perpetuity.
We, Cleon Zhunastu, and our heirs and legitimate successors >in perpetuity,
are hereby empowered to rule by decree, and to establish and disband and
>empower such institutions and organizations as may from time to time be
necessary to >govern the Imperium.

There is, as discussed by others, no provision for removal of the Emperor.
The Emperor either dies or abdicates.  The "legitimate successors" language
allows an Emperor to select a successor, and allows the Emperor's family
members to take their shots at the throne if no successor has been selected.
"Legitimate" means legitimate in light of pre-existing noble practice
(primogeniture or whatever might have been in place; I suppose something
much more flexible than primogeniture).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:31:54 +0000
Subject: Re: none

Joe,

Newbie here.  ROTFLMAO over this one!  Thank you.  I really needed 
this today.  I'm so glad to have a new, inventive excuse for not 
excersizing :-)

Suz



> Date:          Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:36:38 -0500 (CDT)
> From:          Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:       Re: none
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Steve
> > 
> > > My only beef was motivation;  "you idiots flew past the asteroid
> > > belt and two gas gaints surrounded by icy moons to get WATER?"
> > 
> > No, no, no. _food_ and water, remember?
> 
> Humans: the OTHER other white meat. 
> 
> Story idea for any budding authors out there:  Aliens have already 
> secretly arrived in America, and have been feeding off of us for 
> decades.  By the 1950's, they had noticed that their mortality rates had 
> gotten much worse.  After doing exhaustive research, they discovered that 
> the cause was the high fat content of their American diet.  So, 
> they began taking over the fitness, fashion, and advertising industries 
> in order to get us to eat better and excercise more.  By the mid-70's, 
> their mortality rates were back in line.
> 
> Next time you see an Ab Master or Butt Buster infomercial, or an 
> advertisement featuring one of those "waif" models, remember who is really 
> responsible for it and why they're doing it.
> 
> [Brought to you by the American Paranoia Society.]
> 
> 
> > And sex, of course...them iquanas was randy suckers, they was.
> 
> Well, yeah.  What would be the point of coming to Earth, meeting a 
> completely different, intelligent species, if not to have sex with them?
> 
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
> 
> 
> 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 00:38:32 -0800
Subject: Re: GM Screen

On 16 Aug 96 at 10:59, William F. Hostman spewed:

> >I agree with you.  Equipment lists, skill lists, etc. shouldn't be on the
> >GM screen.  Penetration values and weapon damage is an iffy thing,
> >though, because while the PC sheets should have this information already
> >given on them, the NPC's (esp. on-the-spot ones) oftentimes won't.
> 
> I whole heartedley DISAGREE. I want  a skill list, and the weapons list.
> Why a skill list? it keeps me honest, realistic and fair (Something I get
> the feeling a few of you out there have no concept of, but no names from
> me.)

I'll tell you why not a skill list...  Because *most* skills are 
self-explanatory as to what they do, and once the players develop 
familiarity with the system, and the skills their particular 
characters possess, you aren't going to need to look at a skill list. 
 Why waste a whole page with a list of skills (which won't have 
definitions, so you'll still need to look them up), when you could 
put things like encounter tables, the task system, handy combat 
tables, etc... there...  

> >I'd like to see the task system table, the basic combat charts, encounter
> >charts (spaceship and patron, not animal), and starship combat charts
> >covered.  Hmmm.  Can't think of anything else right now.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 03:25:26 PST
Subject: Re: Change in List Addresses

In mail you write:

> Hmmm.  Every message I've sent to xboat over the last couple of days has 
> been bounced back to me from some anonymous remailing service, when it 
> was sent only to xboat.  Either someone is forwarding my stuff there and 
> disguising it to look like I'm the one doing it, or something is screwy 
> with the xboat list that is causing it.
>
> Has anyone else had the anonymous remailing bounces inexplicably pop up 
> lately, or am I the only one?

I've had it happen too. My guess is that someone has *subscribed* to
the list from through an anonymous remailer, or faked a subscribe from
one. Possibly to "mail bomb" the anonymous site.

If that's the case, what we are seeing is a *stupid* mail program
directing bounces to *us* instead of to the list admin.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 04:34:58 PST
Subject: Re: GM Screen and Character Sheet

In mail you write:

> I agree with you.  Equipment lists, skill lists, etc. shouldn't be on the 
> GM screen.  Penetration values and weapon damage is an iffy thing, 
> though, because while the PC sheets should have this information already 
> given on them, the NPC's (esp. on-the-spot ones) oftentimes won't.  

This is one reason why I started generating bunches of NPCs in advance.
You can fit the basics on a 3x5 card, and then when you need a random
character of a certain "class" and "level", you can just flip thru the
right section of the file. And always remember to update the card after
the encounter (even if they get killed, you can just recycle the card).
Some may develop into true "characters, worthy of a sheet and more
detailed records. Most will stay at the "rent a thug" class.

It *does* help to have a character generator program. But doing it by
hand is easy enough, especially if you do it as a way to fill
commercials or the like. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:28:25 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #322)

At 09:03 PM 8/15/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin Derek Wildstar,
>
>> Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
>> Fuel	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%
>
>	Whats that normal would be : 10%,15%,20%,25% and so on if
>	I had interpreted the FF&S rules the last years right.
>
>	FF&S states :
>
>	" The fuel necessary for a jump of one parsec is equal to
>	  the total volume of of the jump drive machinery multiplied
>	  by 5 and dividet by the drives maximum jump number. "
>
>	While the volume of a jump drive is jump+1 percent of the
>	ships displacement, the volume for a full jump would be
>	(jump+1)*5 percent of the hulls displacement.
>
>	So who is wrong ?

        Neither. But when Marc Miller declared that T4 would return to
thruster plates as the "standard" maneuver drive instead of an alternate
technology, the fuel balance was thrown way off. The reason TNE changed the
jfuel from the normal (1+Jump)x10% was because the new fuel-based reaction
drives like HEPlaR sucked down mucho fuel. Going back to higher jfuel
requirements was necessary if the mdrive no longer sucked it down. Otherwise
ships that traditionally couldn't make more than a single jump without
replacing cargo with fuel could make several with a full load of cargo.
>
>By Michael
>
>PS : I think I'll stay with TNE.

        There are certainly aspects of TNE I like; at the very least I'll
buy the T4 setting books, though. Further decisions will have to wait until
I get home and read my book.
- --_________________________________________
temporarily SIGless while mobile post-GenCon


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:28:37 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Defending the Twelve Precepts

At 03:40 PM 8/16/96 MS, you wrote:
>
>>The Twelve Precepts
>
>Responding to my absolutely perfect and flawless Twelve Precepts, Dave Golden 
>said:
>Yes and no.  I agree that the "formal document" would be focused on things 
>Imperial; the common man would have little place in the document.  HOWEVER,
the 
>3rd Imperium has already been described as expanding relatively peacefully 
>initially.  One of the easiest ways of doing that would be to allay the fears 
>and worries of the mass of common folks inhabiting the soon to be absorbed 
>worlds.  The main document would be pointed at defining the Imperium and its 

        I still don't think the Imperium will care one whit about the common
folks. The Imperium has to convince the planetary rulers. The rulers worry
about the hoi-polloi. Obviously, since they're rulers, they've got some
method or another of dealing with them.

>Remeber, the Imperium is modelled on a feudal structure; it must have some 
>measure of support or buy-in from the lower and middle classes, who will be
the 
>source of the empire's funds and power.

        Again, the Imperium is worried about the top of the feudal
structure. The top then worries about those below it, etc. ("Big fleas have
little fleas ...")


>>>3.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of the thoughts and beleifs of 
>>>Imperial citizens. 
>>
>>        This isn't a 20th century democracy. Remember, the Imperium even in
>>1100 contains ALL kinds of governments, many of which are completely
>>contradictory to this. And why should the Imperium care about Joe Schmoe?
>
>Aha!  The Imperium (rightly) does not care about the hapless Joe.  This
precept 
>is one of the loophole ones; all it says is "The _Imperium_ will not interfere 
>with your being free to think and beleive whatever you want."  It does not say 
>"You are free to act on your beleifs" or "The Imperium respectes and agrees 
>with your beleifs," and it most especially does not say "The Imperium will 
>prevent your planetary government/ruler from interfering with your thoughts
and 
>beleifs."   Again, this one is a selling point to the non-rulers.

        First, you've guaranteed the internal sovereignty etc. ... not said
the Imperium won't interfere, but guaranteed it as an absolute. If Joe
Stalin decides to brainwash somebody, they can claim he's interfering with
their internal sovereignty AS GUARANTEED IN THE IMPERIAL CHARTER.
        And I doubt the Imperium really will guarantee it, even in the
limited form you're advocating. Human rights are a 20th century western
concept; they would very definitely limit the emperor's power from the outset.
        Not that some emperor won't come up with a "Proclamation of the
Rights and Privileges of All Sophonts." But putting it in the charter isn't
appropriate,

>>>4.  A guarantee of the right of free passage for Imperial Citizens within 
>>>Imperial space, again subject to the safety, security and well-being of the 
>>>Imperium.
>>
>>Don't spell this out. Assume it under the "free trade"
>
>I think this one is worded badly.  What I was intending here was a statement 
>that member worlds could not arbitrarily block space traffic through their 
>systems.

        Again, put this under "Free Trade." Don't spell it out; the Imperium
just sets the precedent the first time somebody tries to block passage, and
cites "Free Trade."

- --_________________________________________
temporarily SIGless while mobile post-GenCon


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:52:32 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)

Moin Derek Wildstar,

> Neither one. 
> Use the FF&S fuel requirements with T:TNE.
> Use the T4 fuel requirements with T4.

	So what, T4 changed task system, T4 changed ship design,
	T4 also changed a lot of other things (I think) So it's
	IMHO imposible to continue a campain using T4.

	But what kind of customer's should buy T4 then.

	My local games store told : "TNE was like lead in the
	stock, I did'nt think that we order T4". They even
	have some german CT scenarios and some MT sourcebooks
	still on stock.

	As T4 is'nt a continuation of CT-MT-TNE but a complete
	break, I dont think that (here in the backwoods of
	germany) lots of people want to switch. And if they
	dont switch, newbees will buy "RPG featuring the film
	games"

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:54:34 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Programs in the Digests

Moin Douglas E. Berry,

> A great number of us feel like we've accomplished something just by turning
> the computer on in the morning.

	Sorry I did'nt know that, the FAQ only stated that long articles
	should be marked "LONG", what I had done.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:49:14 -0700
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (long, humor)

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Not really...  As I recall, Cleon made it very clear that he was
> denying citizen ships to robots, etc...  Besides which the Imperium
> in TNE (Regency) doesn't even acknowledge that a friendly Virus can
> exist...

WARNING THE FOLLOWING IS SAID ENTIERLY IN JEST.  PLEASE DO NOT BECOME 
OFFENDED BY IT.

So you're saying Cleon was a racist determined to keep the robot in a 
slave like role.  

In essence he was no better than the Solomani, a two faced lying SOB 
intent upon denying basic human rights to a limited group of individuals 
based on their external appearance.

Actually it's worth a though, perhaps the Third Imperium managed to keep 
itself afloat though the universal use of slavery...  Hummm...

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:55:16 -0800
Subject: T4 ETA...

Talked to 1 of the local game shops, and the guy I suspect is most 
gung ho about carrying the new Traveller...

He said that the distributor (Chessex, IIRC) had shipped the 
softcovers on Friday, and that he was expecting shipment on 
Tuesday...here in Phoenix, AZ...

Suspect that most of the shops in your towns will see them early to 
mid next week...

Ironically enough, 1 of the customers in the store where I went 
(Waterloo Adventure Games, a store about the size of a supermarket in 
Gilbert, AZ) was unaware that GDW was out of business, and 2 or 3 
people expressed interest in the new book...after I inquired when the 
owner expected to receive them...

If IG does it right, they could have a hit on their hands...there are 
a lot of people with a wait and see attitude down here in Phoenix.  
As for me, you can guess where I'll be on Tuesday afternoon...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:55:16 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Ship Design Errata and Critique (Td V96 #326)

On 17 Aug 96 at 17:52, Michael Koehne spewed:

> Moin Derek Wildstar,
> 
> > Neither one. 
> > Use the FF&S fuel requirements with T:TNE.
> > Use the T4 fuel requirements with T4.
> 
> 	So what, T4 changed task system, T4 changed ship design,
> 	T4 also changed a lot of other things (I think) So it's
> 	IMHO imposible to continue a campain using T4.
> 
> 	But what kind of customer's should buy T4 then.
> 
> 	My local games store told : "TNE was like lead in the
> 	stock, I did'nt think that we order T4". They even
> 	have some german CT scenarios and some MT sourcebooks
> 	still on stock.
> 
> 	As T4 is'nt a continuation of CT-MT-TNE but a complete
> 	break, I dont think that (here in the backwoods of
> 	germany) lots of people want to switch. And if they
> 	dont switch, newbees will buy "RPG featuring the film
> 	games"

You're reading way too much into what's been discussed.  Character 
Generation is virtually the same...  Yes there is a task system, but 
the presence of a different task system doesn't make the MT or CT stuff 
all that unusable with this system  (its a whole lot less of a 
departure from MT/CT than TNE was).  Heck, I've been running CT era 
stuff under the MT system for years.  I converted my CT ship designs, 
tweaked the task rolls for certain things, and voila...

Yes, Starship Combat & Design are different...  If anything, the cleaned 
up versions are better...and a lot more compatible with each other than 
Book 2 & High Guard were...  This game is a lot closer to CT than either 
of the other post-CT systems...

The original CT as it is was a graybeard.  The facelift of a 
task system, as well a newer better ship design system, should make 
it a more state of the art system, without sacrificing much of the playability 
of the old CT system...   

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 22:18 BST-1
Subject: Re: Founding document

In-Reply-To: <9608170614.AA11101@NS.MPGN.COM>
In Digest 328  Wes Esser put forward his:

>                  OATH OF SYLEA
>KNOW ALL that we, CLEON ZHUNASTU, Lord of Sylea, Protector of
>Terra and Vland, Emperor of Man, willingly and fully accept the
> charge put upon me by the acclaimation of the asembled Lords, and
> recalim with a glad heart the Imperial throne, so long vacant.
etc, etc..

This is almost exactly how I saw it. Cleon was a opportunistic 
politician who had to sell his reborn Imperium to the public. And 
what do politicians give us at times like this? Lots of stuff 
about dreams -- little specifics. The more details there are, the 
more there is for people to disagree about. When Cleon made his 
declaration he didn't know if the public would just shrug their 
shoulders, say 'there goes another power-mad politico', and walk 
away. 

Cleon was also concerned how his declaration would play outside 
the borders of his newly restored Imperium. Worlds thinking of 
perhaps joining would be put off by any aggressive talk. What they 
would want to hear is that Cleon would be leaving all existing 
planetary governments intact.

There was no need to put in an article on rights of assassination. 
The overthrow of the vilani First Imperium by the human Second was 
achieved through war -- as much a precedent as anyone would need 
that shooting people was an acceptable means of political 
advancement. Wes is spot on when he says tradition and expediency 
are what guides the imperial government.

I like the way Wes stresses the way the Emperor is seen to get his 
powers from the assembled nobility of the Moot. Although he was 
the victor in the Wars of the Roses, Henry VII gained much of his 
legitimacy as King in that almost his first act when he staggered 
off the field at Bosworth was to summon Parliament -- and 
Parliament turned up. Since only the King could summon Parliament, 
ergo Henry must be King. Cleon might be acting in a similar way in 
summoning the Moot, a body not assembled since the fall of the 
Second Imperium, to hear his declaration.

Nick


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:30:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Drat and Curses!

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >It's good to know more than just those of us on-line have a desire to get 
> >the new Traveller. :)
> 
> Well yeah, but I'm worried!  What if they sell out before I get down there? 
> They won't let me reserve a copy, grumble, grumble. <g>

/Really?/  Amazing.  Either the distributor is alloting X number per 
store (ie, not allowing them to order as many as they want) so they 
anticipate a shortage, or the store is run by someone totally ignorant of 
how to please customers.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 18 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 330

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: none
         2. [none]
         3. Re: 
         4. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         5. Re: none
         6. JG, Materials Tech, Decks, Regulation, GenCon (fwd)
         7. Imperial Charter, 3-sided Dice
         8. Random Thoughts
         9. Re: Imperial Charter
        10. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
        11. Re: Random Thoughts
        12. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:46:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: none

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996, Suzette C. Dollar wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> Newbie here.  ROTFLMAO over this one!  Thank you.  I really needed 
> this today.  I'm so glad to have a new, inventive excuse for not 
> excersizing :-)

Thanks for the applause. :)  Actually, the scenario was one my wife and I 
came up with a while back.  Hadn't found a use for it yet, so I decided 
to post it when the opportunity presented itself.

BTW, I note the last name and domain similarity with Stu Dollar.  Let's 
see....wife or sister?  Hmmm.  If I guess wrong, you could be insulted 
either way. :)  Hmmm.  Dare I ask?  Hmmm.

Anyway, welcome to the list(s)!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:47:01 -0800
Subject: [none]

>> Why a skill list? it keeps me honest, realistic and fair (Something I get
>> the feeling a few of you out there have no concept of, but no names from
>> me.)
>
>I'll tell you why not a skill list...  Because *most* skills are
>self-explanatory as to what they do, and once the players develop
>familiarity with the system, and the skills their particular
>characters possess, you aren't going to need to look at a skill list.
> Why waste a whole page with a list of skills (which won't have
>definitions, so you'll still need to look them up), when you could
>put things like encounter tables, the task system, handy combat
>tables, etc... there...

Because, in many cases, it helps to have the skill list handy when GM'ing.
It also puts it in a convinient place (if on back of Screen) for the
players. Alas, not only are most players NOT going to know the skill list,
they are even more unlikely to know the cascades and clusters.

And again, as a  GM, it helps to avoid confusion (especially since the
skill list, once again, has changed!!!!!) if the GM has a copy of the skill
lists, which, as you pointed out so nicely, would be almost self
explanatory, so that he does not confuse his poor players with the wrong
skill names (a major problem I currently have both as player and GM) when
calling for task rolls.

Also, unlike some on liners, I actually have a group that is constantly in
fluxz as to players, around a core group. I almost ALWAYS have NEW PLAYERS.
Many times they are first time RPGers, and Traveller is their first
experience in the hobby. Confusing them is bad. Making the game run
smoother is good. A half page skill list (two collumns, small type, should
work.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:18:45 -0800
Subject: Re: 

On 17 Aug 96 at 17:47, William F. Hostman spewed:

> Because, in many cases, it helps to have the skill list handy when GM'ing.
> It also puts it in a convinient place (if on back of Screen) for the
> players. Alas, not only are most players NOT going to know the skill list,
> they are even more unlikely to know the cascades and clusters.

With experience, most GM's know the skill list pretty well...at least 
well enough to know what 1 means.  In addition, the character sheet 
has the relevant skills the particular character is going to need, so 
there isn't much need for them to look 1 up either...

I just think there are probably better things the limited space on a 
GM screen could be put to...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Russell H Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:37:38 -0400
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

Just two things:

1.  Ban on interstellar transpost and usage of nuclear weapons.

2.  Customs and tariffs with regard to trade from outside the Imperium.


------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:58:39 +0000
Subject: Re: none

> BTW, I note the last name and domain similarity with Stu Dollar.  Let's 
> see....wife or sister?  Hmmm.  If I guess wrong, you could be insulted 
> either way. :)  Hmmm.  Dare I ask?  Hmmm.

Wife.  Survived 10yrs so far :-)  I'm not as "into" Traveller as he
is, but I'm getting there.  I have played with him for most of our
marriage, though.

> Anyway, welcome to the list(s)!

Thank you.

Suz 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:13:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: JG, Materials Tech, Decks, Regulation, GenCon (fwd)

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen this appear on the list, so I'm re-posting it. Apologies 
if this is a duplicate message!

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 02:38:23 +1000 (EST)
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
To: Traveller Digest <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: JG, Materials Tech, Decks, Regulation, GenCon

Dear Folks -

1.	 JUDGES GUILD

Who owns the rights to JG products now? I'm especially thinking of "50
Starbases", which has a lot of great material for people like Andy Lilly. 

2.	FUTURE MATERIALS

Peter  H. Brenton:
>...was wondering what applications will arise from the presence of large 
amounts of materials which, in our present day, are only available in 
small quantities and are therefore too expensive for everyday use.

In the Watchmen comic, Dr Manhattan created large quantities of lithium. 
This led to the production of batteries in large quantities, allowing 
cars to be battery-powered. In turn, this cleaned up the environment, 
freed petroleum for other uses, and preserved oil reserves.

This type of speculation (make something available, then see what happens 
to a society) is the basis for heaps of science fiction:

	The "slow glass" idea from _Other Days, Other Eyes_, Bob Shaw.
	Grav belts from _Vertigo_, Bob Shaw.
	Transfer booths from various titles by Larry Niven.

...Just to name a few.

BTW, did you know that the *Sarafand* (_Ship of Strangers_, Bob Shaw) is 
written up as a Traveller ship? It was published in "The Sarafand File", 
Paul Vernon and Sean Masterson, _Imagine_, issue #29, August 1985, TSR UK 
Ltd, Cambridge, UK.

The article includes:

- - the Cartographical Service logo;
- - full (vertical!) deck-plans;
- - Traveller HG (and Star Frontiers) stats;
- - Striker (and Star Frontiers) stats, pics, and plans of the Survey Modules;
- - 5 scenarios.

The rest of the mag included and interview, and "Executioner's Moon", a 
new *Sarafand* story.

Fans of Bob Shaw might be interested in one of his approaches to writing:

"Quite often my books are set five or ten years in the future and just 
one thing has changed. There is one scientific development. I write that 
novel about how the change affects some people. I try to write it as if 
it's not an SF novel, but a novel which would have been regarded as an 
ordinary novel five or ten years in the future when this development has 
occurred."

3.	VERTICAL DECKS

My take on this is that those small ships that land on planetary surfaces 
have horizontal deck plans. Large ships (eg. the *Azhanti High 
Lightning-class*) and ships that do not land (eg. the x-boat, x-boat 
tender) have vertical decks. This seems to match published designs.

I must admit, I created a ship that has *both*, depending on which area 
you are in (it is a "close" structure, ie. many bits bolted together). To 
transfer from one area to another, you use "lifts" - all these do is 
rotate thru 90 degrees. After all, you can do amazing things with grav 
plates. One of my players - APM - designed a Rhylanor mall where people 
on the "roof" walk upside down. A kind of corkscrew ramp connects the 
real floor with the wall-mounted stores and then to the ceiling-mounted 
stores. Not that I'd want to shop there; even with massively-redundant 
systems, I'm sure a glitch will occur somewhere (hmm, is this a 
detective-style scenario in the making?).

4.	INTERSTELLAR REGULATION

Back in _Merchant Prince_ or _Merchants and Merchandise_, merchant crews 
had to be pass "exams" in order to be rated suitable for a particular job 
ranking. Maybe just expand this principle?

5.	GENCON FOR THOSE DOWN-UNDER

Think of the biggest Australian con you have ever been to (Cancon '93, 
1100 people) and multiply by 50 (approx 50,000 at Gencon, are my figures 
still accurate).

Differences (apart from the obvious, already stated):

1. You cannot enter as a team, only as an individual player. Knowing what 
the con organisers go thru over here ito scheduling, that is probably a 
decision made in order to preserve sanity.

2. No freeforms. Freeforms (equivalent to "How to host a Murder", except 
using AD&D, Cthulhu, Traveller, or systemless) are an Oz invention.

3. HEAPS (and heaps and heaps, etc) of stalls. T$R takes up the middle 
bit with their castle (at least, this seems to be the case in all the 
pics I've ever seen).

Now it is up to one of our insider attendees (eg. Joe Walsh) to correct 
my view of the con. ;-)

- ----------

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".



------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:18:58 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Imperial Charter, 3-sided Dice

Dear Folks -

1.	IMPERIAL CHARTER

Uh, 1000 words only - this says to me that all the "Charter" is going to 
be a fairly general listing of the raison d'etre of the Imperium, and 
broad brush-stroke statements about how the thing will be organised. 
Specific details would be left to later sub-sections or sub-charters. 
Presumably, a citizen could appeal against a clause in a lower charter if 
it runs contrary to the spirit of the overall Imperial Charter. Actually, 
Steve Charlton said this better, that the thing serves as a foundation 
for "real" laws to be based upon.

Looking at Jeff's meister-werk, this is... not bad. Certainly, I can see 
that some of the initial Articles will have changed by 1100*, but these 
work fine as the initial Articles posted by Cleon.

* for eg., extrality. In the 1100 Imperium, there may be more than one 
starport per system. While at least _one_ of these must be 
extraterritorial, the others may or may not be.

As for:

>This one single right (the right of any citizen to appeal to a noble), I 
might see in this document.

In _The Spinward Marches Campaign_, the ref's instructions are to allow 
the PC's to present their case to the squadron commodore. He could 
"listen to the group and then make a decision". This suggests that an 
Imperial military leader, of sufficient rank, has certain legal powers 
(of course, maybe it only suggests that he is a noble, and therefore has 
legal clout as a member of the ruling classes).

Roderick Darroch Elliott's work is fantastic. (The amount of talent on 
this mailing list is awesome!). However, I have a quibble over Article 6 
of the Commentary. Change "Spaceports" to read "Those Ports given over to 
the Imperium, however...". This fits better with the wording of the 
actual Charter, which is vague enough to allow ports to be Imperial 
("given over") or not Imperial. I believe that this re-wording works even 
better than Jeff's original starport section.

...And Eris is quite correct in saying that this wording should be more 
general to allow for bases, Research Stations, etc. Good pickup!

I believe that his comments about the Moot are also correct. The Moot is 
only a deliberative body, and has only ever been granted the two powers 
Eris mentioned. Really, it is only *one* power - the power to decide who 
to pledge loyalty to.

Wes' "Oath of Sylea" is just brilliant! Perfect language for such an 
occasion. Perhaps this *is* the initial proclamation, and the Charter 
came later.

2.	3-SIDED DICE

One way my players cam up with for 1/2 dice is to colour the spots.

(Assuming white dice w/black spots):

Side	Action

6	Paint three dots white (becomes a "3"

5	Paint the edge dots white (becomes a "1"

4	Paint two diagonally-opposed dots white (becomes "2")

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:15:11 -0700
Subject: Random Thoughts

I was going to put this to xboat, but I haven't received anything, and am not sure if it's working.

I admit that I was initially disappointed that T4 would go back to a d6 mechanism.  I've attempted
to design game systems in that past, and usually prefer some type of even distribution (no bell curve).  
When a modifier is applied, it's effect is consistant across all possible rolls.  I was discussing this 
with the guy that introduced me to RPG's oh so many years ago, who is currently a GURPS fan.  For the 
reason outlined above, I'm not (although I do really like it's character generation).  Anyway, the 
discussion went that his character needed 12 or less for whatever task, and mine needed 8 or less 
(arbitrary system w/ 3d6, I don't remeber GURPS).  If we both recieve a +4 (for whatever reason), that 
will increase my target significantly more than his, percentagewise, and seems to be an unreasonable 
mechanism.  From that point, we decided that any modifier would need to be some percentage of the 
target number (does HERO do this?).  However, a minus modifier would need to be figured differently, 
probably reducing the whole thing to table look-ups (another thing I don't care for).  At that point, it
dawned on me, that I haven't heard anything modifiers to the task roll in T4.  Can someone confirm or 
deny that?  (How's that for a long winded question?).  If there isn't any modifier, then I may actually 
take a look at this (I'll be a lemming and buy it anyway.....), and, who knows, even play it.  Even though 
I might change my mind about a d6 system, I doubt I'm going to like the half die thing.

Here's something that I've been doing since I first got book 6 and generated star systems by hand.  The 
population digit reflects the exponent of the actual population.  By the rules, no population is the same 
as a population of 1-9.  That always struck me as odd, especially after gov't, law, and tech are generated.  
Does '.-...000-0' mean nobody is there or that there are 1-9 people with not gov't, no law, and primative 
tech?  I've been leaving the last 4 digits blank, which leaves no question about who might be living on 
that world.

I've noticed a couple of comments about linux in the last couple of days.  I recently bought a new PC with 
this WinMac95 thingee on it, and really am not impressed (that's the polite version).  I haven't found a 
good news reader (the one in Netscape sucks--that's also a polite version), and was wondering how well it 
was working for those using it?  

I was going to comment about the Imperial Declaration thingee, but everything that I thought of was just 
disgruntal comments about current American politics........


MAN

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:39:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Charter

        Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
>On 08/16/96 at 09:12 PM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:
>
>This is the best I've seen so far!  A few comments are included within the
>document...


        Many thanks!  I'll incorporate some of the comments since they make
such brilliant sense (I was a little unsure myself about how I treated the
Moot).  I disagree slightly with a few of your comments though: see below.


[snip]
>>1.  Whereas it is in the interest of all sophonts that peace, order, and
>>good government be established and the freedom of trade maintained, the
>>Grand Imperium of the Stars, by Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty Cleon
>>Zhunatsu, Heir to the Imperial Throne, is hereby restored at this first
>>day of the Year 0 at [fill in place].  The planets of the former Sylean
>>Federation are hereby declared to be the Worlds of the Imperium.
>
>[The word stability rather than good government might be more
>appropriate.]


        Naw... the POGG wording allows the Emperor to send the Imperial
Navy in to intervene with a Noble's fief on any number of grounds: peace is
disturbed, order is disrupted, or good government not being provided.
Stability would be covered under the order heading, and good government can
be used to justify intervention on a much wider range of grounds >:).


>
>[Because this is a restoration, *all* the systems once attached to the
>Imperium should be considered *still* attached.  They should be *invited*
>to reaffirm their fealty to the Emperior and the Imperium. A general goal
>of extending the peace, order, and stability of the Imperium throughout all
>space should be expressed.]


        Right.  I'll tweak accordingly.

[snip
>>3.  All the various persons resident upon the Worlds of the Imperium, or
>>in the Spaces Between The Worlds are the subjects of His Imperial Majesty,
>>and are Citizens of the Imperium.  Any world that petitions to become a
>>World of the Imperium, or which is attached by conquest or other means to
>>the Imperium, shall become a World of the Imperium, at the discretion of
>>His Imperial Majesty, by Special Proclamation of His Imperial Majesty.
>
>[Residing is a little bit too encompassing.  All persons *born* within
>Imperial Systems or in space between Imperial Systems, and all persons who
>have registered their intent, pledged *fealty* to His Imperial Majesty, and
>been accepted into His graceious protection are Citizens of the Imperium,
>with all rights and responsibilities therein.]


        Well, the residence test is what the Canadian Income Tax Act uses
to determine whether Revenue Canada can ding someone: of course it's broad
:).  However, I'll defer to your superior knowledge of things Imperial and
go with a citizenship test (what the IRS uses).


>
>[Systems would pledge fealty to His Imperial Majesty and petition for His
>gracious recogniztion and protection.  Don't directly mention conquest!!!
>Every system that comes in will pleage fealty and petition..even if it's
>the nobels and/or government put in place by the the Imperial Navy after
>they depose the former government. <g>]


        Gotcha... however, you could argue that by explicitly stating that
absorption by conquest is permissible, it's thereby legitimated.  I'll
think about this one for a bit.


[snip]
>[Don't limit it to Port facilities, because it will apply to Navy, Army and
>Scout bases as well.  Simply say...save upon territory given over to
>Imperial use, which shall be under the jurisdictioin of Imperial Law.
>Imperial use can then be interpreted to mean Port facilities, Military
>bases, Research facilities, or *anything* else. A broad interpretation of
>this provision would provide for
>interdicted systems as well.]


        Good one.  I'll amend accordingly.  Wording it as "territory given
over to Imperial use" is nice and ambiguous and could lead to squabbles
over whether to interpret it as including space lanes or not :).


>
>>7.  All Worlds of the Imperium shall adopt the Imperial Calendar and the
>>Imperial Credit as the currency of trade between the Worlds of the
>>Imperium.
>
>>8.  The Freedom of Lawful Trade, being the lifeblood of the Imperium and
>>the living of His Imperial Majesty's subjects, shall only be interfered
>>with by Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation emitted by His Imperial
>>Majesty.
>
>[Slight change:  ...Majesty's subjects, shall not be interfered with,
>except by Imperial Edict, Decree or Proclamation.]


        You're quite right.  Stricter wording, vaguely reminiscent of the
U.S. Second Amendment :).  I'll modify accordingly.


>
>>9.  Those subjects which His Imperial Majesty has enfeoffed as Nobles
>shall be members of the Moot.  The Moot may advise His Imperial Majesty
>and deliberate upon such matters as His Imperial Majesty may delegate to
>them. In addition, consent of a bare majority of the Moot is required for
>any Special Edict, Decree, or Proclamation to enter into force.  The Moot
>shall be empowered to legislate upon any subject upon which His Imperial
>Majesty has not already legislated.  His Imperial Majesty may, unless
>opposed by no less than nine tenths of the members of the Moot is session
>at the time, at any time revoke any or all legislation passed by the Moot,
>and pass Edicts, Decrees, or Proclamations in its place.  The Moot shall
>be convened and dismissed at the discretion of His Imperial Majesty.
>
>[This is the only Article with which I have a real problem.  The Moot is
>granted too much power.  I never saw the Moot as a
>legislator, dealing with laws, edicts or decrees.  I saw it more as a the
>public expression of the Fealty between the Citizens of the Imperium and
>it's Imperial Majesty.]
>
>[It appears to me that the Moot really only had two functions:  (1) They
>could disolve the Imperium by publicly renouncing their fealty; (2) They
>could confirm the Emperor by declareing their fealty to Him. To my
>knowledge, they did *not* have the power to pass edicts or legislation,
>whether by majority, super-majority or unanimous consent.  Therefore, I
>would limit their role to the following:]
>
>The Moot, by unanimous public acclaimation and in the presence of His
>Imperial Majesty by individually renouncing their fealty, may disolve the
>Grand Imperium of Stars and revoke all authority exercised thereby.
>
>  [I'd suggest that they have to do this 3 times on consecutive
>   days.  So yes they can disolve the Imperium, but by ghod it had
>   not only better be unanimous, but they better have *all* the
>   powers lined up with them or they'll never live to do it. <g>]
>
>The Moot, by unanimous and public acclaimation, will confirm the authority
>of the Imperial Personage, pledging fealty and receiving His gracious
>protection.
>
>   [Notice I didn't say they elected the Emperor.  I said that they
>    will *confirm* his authority and exchange pledges of fealty.
>    This leaves it open as to how the Emperor is actually selected,
>    as we all know, but does give the Moot a role to play.  A role
>    that *could* include background King-making.]


        Makes sense... I'll fix accordingly.


*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:39:55 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

        Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
>
>Marc Miller writes...
>
>X::>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
> ::>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
> ::>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions .
>
> [Deleted]
>
> Herewith my proposed Imperial Charter (my personal notes are in
> {} braces):
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Preamble - Proclamation of the Imperium
>
> We, Cleon Zhunastu, recognizing that the present structure
> governing the Sylean Federation is inadequate for governance of
> a necessarily expanded entity, and with the acquiescence of the
> present Government of the Sylean Federation, declare that the
> Sylean Federation has outlived its usefulness, and is
> dissolved.  We further proclaim that the worlds formerly of the
> Sylean Federation shall be members of a new entity, to be
> referred to henceforth as "the Imperium".  We further proclaim
> that we, Cleon Zhunastu, are assuming Imperial power for the
> period necessary to ensure a stable and enduring Imperium.
[snip]


        Jeff... a few comments:


        It sounds really nice but it's worded in some places so as to
*limit* Imperial power, and it's too detailed.  If anything it reads
vaguely like the Canadian Constitution (which, IMHO, goes a little far into
the details).  The situation here is one where Cleon is trying to set up
something wherein he will have as much personal power as possible to run
things.  Thus, he'd have wanted to make the Imperial charter as flexible as
possible.  Leaving it vague, and not dealing with the nitty gritties, is a
good way of  doing this.  What it doesn't cover would be up for grabs, and
since Cleon is the most powerful party involved, he'd be in the best
position to grab it.  Thus, I don't think he would have gone to the level
of detail that you did, and he would have worded it to permit him doing
whatever he felt like if he needed to.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:36:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Mark Nordstrand wrote:

> I was going to put this to xboat, but I haven't received anything, and am not sure if it's working.

I don't know about xboat, but it's been a slow weekend on TML and 
GDW-Beta, so maybe that is just the case with Xboat as well.


> mechanism.  From that point, we decided that any modifier would need to be some percentage of the 
> target number (does HERO do this?).  However, a minus modifier would need to be figured differently, 

No. The Hero system just uses die modifiers not unlike the Traveller system.


> probably reducing the whole thing to table look-ups (another thing I don't care for).  At that point, it
> dawned on me, that I haven't heard anything modifiers to the task roll in T4.  Can someone confirm or 
> deny that?  (How's that for a long winded question?).  If there isn't any modifier, then I may actually 

T4 does have DMs, just like in previous versions of Traveller.  However, 
they do seem to be less numerous than in CT, since there is no DM matrix 
for weapons vs. armor now that penetration is taken into account (that 
is, it is now possible to score a hit but not do any damage because the 
armor worn by the defender absorbed the attack).  

Just looking at combat, there are still DMs for range, concealment, 
darkness, increased/decreased damage attacks, attacks to disarm, evading, 
aimed fire, and more.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:02:03 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

R.D. Elliott wrote:
> 
>         Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> >Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
> >
> >Marc Miller writes...
> >
> >X::>The establishment of the Third Imperium formally occurred with the issuance
> > ::>of a proclamation by Cleon Zhunastu. That document was the constitution of
> > ::>the Third Imperium, and contained the following provisions .
> >
> > [Deleted]
> >
> > Herewith my proposed Imperial Charter (my personal notes are in
> > {} braces):
> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > Preamble - Proclamation of the Imperium
> >
> > We, Cleon Zhunastu, recognizing that the present structure
> > governing the Sylean Federation is inadequate for governance of
> > a necessarily expanded entity, and with the acquiescence of the
> > present Government of the Sylean Federation, declare that the
> > Sylean Federation has outlived its usefulness, and is
> > dissolved.  We further proclaim that the worlds formerly of the
> > Sylean Federation shall be members of a new entity, to be
> > referred to henceforth as "the Imperium".  We further proclaim
> > that we, Cleon Zhunastu, are assuming Imperial power for the
> > period necessary to ensure a stable and enduring Imperium.
> [snip]
> 
>         Jeff... a few comments:
> 
>         It sounds really nice but it's worded in some places so as to
> *limit* Imperial power, and it's too detailed.  If anything it reads
> vaguely like the Canadian Constitution (which, IMHO, goes a little far into
> the details).  The situation here is one where Cleon is trying to set up
> something wherein he will have as much personal power as possible to run
> things.  Thus, he'd have wanted to make the Imperial charter as flexible as
> possible.  Leaving it vague, and not dealing with the nitty gritties, is a
> good way of  doing this.  What it doesn't cover would be up for grabs, and
> since Cleon is the most powerful party involved, he'd be in the best
> position to grab it.  Thus, I don't think he would have gone to the level
> of detail that you did, and he would have worded it to permit him doing
> whatever he felt like if he needed to.
> 
> *-------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
> *-------------------------------------------------------------*
 It seems to Me that any declaration of policy for a expansive and 
aggressive Empire would have to be long on loopholes and short on
details. You would not want to tie the hands of any of Your Millitary or
Diplomats when They work in a fluid enviroment like Empire building.
You would brief You surrogates as they went out and over time the real
Policies would write themselves.
 What will the Document look like ask a Lawyer, Politician or Used Car
salesman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #330
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From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:11:10 -0400
To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #331

Traveller-digest           Monday, 19 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 331

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4: RSSC
         2. T4 and Traveller Conunity (V96#329)
         3. Re: Imperial Charter
         4. Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution
         5. Re: T4: RSSC
         6. T4:RSSC (alternate proposal)
         7. Re: T4: RSSC
         8. Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal)
         9. Comments on the "Goffin" Declararion
        10. Re: T4: RSSC
        11. T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:28:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: RSSC

For those who are interested in a rediculously simple space combat system, 
here is a first draft outline of what I would consider to be such a 
system.  If there is interest, I (or we) can develop it.  Suggestions from 
those interested in such a system would be appreciated.

===========================================================================
The Rediculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC) System

1.  Determine Initiative
        Each side rolls 1D, with a DM of the task force commander's 
        leadership skill (if any).  Highest roll wins.

2.  Movement
	A)  The initiative winner may choose to flee unopposed.
	B)  The initiative loser may choose to flee, but the other side
            is entitled to one final attack.

2.  Attack (Initiative winner)
        A)  Laser Fire is resolved
            1)  Sandcasters, etc. taken into account
            2)  Damage, if any, is determined
        B)  Missile attacks resolved
            1)  Defending laser fire taken into account
            2)  Damage, if any, is determined

3.  Attack (Initiative loser)
        A)  Laser Fire is resolved
            1)  Sandcasters, etc. taken into account
            2)  Damage, if any, is determined
        B)  Missile attacks resolved
            1)  Defending laser fire taken into account
            2)  Damage, if any, is determined

Repeat process until one side wins or withdraws, or both sides are unable 
to continue.

========================================================================
General Comments/Questions:

Way back in the old days, my group used a system similar to this for 
resolving most space combats.  Surprise, boarding, etc. were all 
resolved in a storytelling manner, rather than in a wargame manner.  It 
worked for us, anyway.

As I see it, one of the major complications in ship-to-ship combat is 
movement.  Get rid of that, and you get rid a lot of DMs.  Any comments 
on the "movement" system listed here?  Keep in mind that if we add 
movement, we pretty much end up with the system in T4 due to the 
additional actions having a movement system implies.

What sort of defenses should be allowed?  Sandcasters are easy enough, as 
is defensive use of lasers.  What about screens, dampers, and black globe?

What sort of attacks should be allowed?  I like lasers and missiles, but 
should we add others?

What about rules for boarding?  When are participants allowed to board 
opposing ships?

Additional comments and questions are welcome.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 14:31:31 -0400
Subject: T4 and Traveller Conunity (V96#329)

kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote:
> 	So what, T4 changed task system, T4 changed ship design,
> 	T4 also changed a lot of other things (I think) So it's
> 	IMHO imposible to continue a campain using T4.

Continue a T:TNE (New Era) campaign with T4?  Why would you want to?
Instead, consider T4 when you're starting a new campaign.

> 	But what kind of customer's should buy T4 then.

Someone who wants:
1) Easier-to-use starship creation and combat (included in the basic
   rulebook, as opposed to being separate products in T:TNE).
2) A new set of scenarios, featuring a more hopeful world than the 
   doom-and-gloom of MT and T:TNE.  IMHO, Traveller was never supposed
   to be a "dark future" game.
3) Rules designed for Science-Fiction role-playing, instead of recycled
   "generic" 20th century rules (T:TNE was based on Twilight:2000 mechanics,
   and showed it - particularly in its bias for late-20th-century
   slugthrowers).
4) A new "vision" of the world of the Far Future.

> 	As T4 is'nt a continuation of CT-MT-TNE but a complete
> 	break, I dont think that lots of people want to switch.

I don't think that's an accurate summary.  I've been playing Traveller from
the CT days and, although there have been a lot of changes, I think it's fair
to say that T:TNE was the "break" in the sequence.  T:TNE wasn't compatible
with what came before it, and isn't compatible with what comes afterward.

Classic Traveller is the original, and in many ways MegaTraveller was a
(mostly) compatible, errata-ridden "upgrade".  MegaTraveller did, however,
have an entirely differnet starship construction system than CT did.
MegaTraveller's character generation, skill and task, and combat systems
were all "compatible" with CT, so that you could take your old character
into the new system (or vice-versa) without trouble.

T:TNE was entirely-incompatible with CT/MT.  Character generation was different;
skills and attributes were handled differently, and you had to convert
characters to continue them from a CT/MT game into T:TNE.  T:TNE also had
new and completely different starship creation rules.

T4 is more a return to CT/MT than an entirely new system; however, the
starship design systems are based more on T:TNE.  Except for the differences
I outlined earlier, T4 ships are legal T:TNE designs (remember: in T:TNE,
the T4 ships are optional variants; in T4, T:TNE ships are technologically
backwards).

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 14:16:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Charter

On 08/18/96 at 12:39 PM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:

>>[Systems would pledge fealty to His Imperial Majesty and petition for His
>>gracious recogniztion and protection.  Don't directly mention conquest!!!
>>Every system that comes in will pleage fealty and petition..even if it's
>>the nobels and/or government put in place by the the Imperial Navy after
>>they depose the former government. <g>]


>        Gotcha... however, you could argue that by explicitly stating that
>absorption by conquest is permissible, it's thereby legitimated.  I'll
>think about this one for a bit.

Still think it's best *not* to explicitly state it.  Specifically, talking
about conquest is sure to raise the hackles of every system outside the
Imperium, bad politics, and not *Imperial* thinking anyway...see only *bad*
guys conquer.  Good guys:  "liberate
territory", "normalize relationships", "stabilize the border", "take under
our protection", and "extend our Imperial influence."


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 14:30:16 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#152] Imperial Constitution

On 08/18/96 at 02:02 PM,  Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net> said:

> What will the Document look like ask a Lawyer, Politician or Used Car
>salesman.

I firmly agree with you about the need to be vague!  <g> However, I can't
fully agree with your suggested sources:

Lawyer:  Will want to nail every little point down with detailed and
  impossible to understand rules...the better to deal with the
  multitude of suits they hope it will engender.

Politician: Sorry, but how are they different from Lawyers?  <g> If
  the pol wasn't on already, he'd get a bunch to write it for him.

Used Car Salesman:  Now you're talking! <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 15:21:49 -0500
Subject: Re: T4: RSSC

On 08/18/96 at 01:28 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>For those who are interested in a rediculously simple space combat system,
>here is a first draft outline of what I would consider to be such a 
>system.  

Never one for overstatment, are you Joe?  <g> 

This is basically, "You stand over there, and I'll stand over here and we
shoot at each other until:  a. somebody runs, b. somebody dies, c. we run
out of bullets."  <g>

I like it!

I see this kind of system being used, not in warship vs warship type
combat, but when the PC's lightly armed ship takes on another lightly armed
ship, say pirates, custom's boat, or something like that.  Is that how you
see it?

>===========================================================================
>The Rediculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC) System

>1.  Determine Initiative
>        Each side rolls 1D, with a DM of the task force commander's 
>        leadership skill (if any).  Highest roll wins.

Why not Ship's Tactics skill?  The Pilot (or Commander) having that skill
should give their ship advantages in the combat and the only real advantage
you are allowing is first shot/evade.

>2.  Movement
>	A)  The initiative winner may choose to flee unopposed.
>	B)  The initiative loser may choose to flee, but the other side
>            is entitled to one final attack.

I get your point, but why would you ever choose (B)?  

Why not make this a contest of skills (maybe Tactics again), where complete
success means (A)+you get the last shot, partial success means (A), partial
failure means (B), and complete failure means you fail to break the
engagement off.

>2.  Attack (Initiative winner)
>        A)  Laser Fire is resolved
>            1)  Sandcasters, etc. taken into account
>            2)  Damage, if any, is determined
>        B)  Missile attacks resolved
>            1)  Defending laser fire taken into account
>            2)  Damage, if any, is determined

>3.  Attack (Initiative loser)
>        A)  Laser Fire is resolved
>            1)  Sandcasters, etc. taken into account
>            2)  Damage, if any, is determined
>        B)  Missile attacks resolved
>            1)  Defending laser fire taken into account
>            2)  Damage, if any, is determined

Hopefully, you are going to use skills like Gunnery here?  Skill contests
between the two sides Gunnery skills might work well.  Come to think of it,
contests of Sensor Skills should come into play too.


>Repeat process until one side wins or withdraws, or both sides are unable 
>to continue.

>========================================================================

>Way back in the old days, my group used a system similar to this for 
>resolving most space combats.  Surprise, boarding, etc. were all  resolved
>in a storytelling manner, rather than in a wargame manner.  It  worked for
>us, anyway.

I've always done pretty much the same, very much roleplaying things out,
using skills (and skills contests) and abstracting everything else.

>As I see it, one of the major complications in ship-to-ship combat is 
>movement.  Get rid of that, and you get rid a lot of DMs.  Any comments 
>on the "movement" system listed here? 

See above.  <g> 

I don't have a problem totally abstracting it to:  (1) stay and fight, or
(2) run.  Range *is* a problem though.  T4's basic system uses range bands
doesn't it?  That's as complicated as *I* want to go, and even then it
could be as simple as:  long range, close range, contact (for boarding).

>Keep in mind that if we add movement, we pretty much end up with
>the system in T4 due to the additional actions having a movement
>system implies.

Yeah, I know how complicated it can get, I'm an old wargamer from the more
detailed the better school.  Isn't it strange I don't play RPG's that way?
<g>

>What sort of defenses should be allowed?  Sandcasters are easy enough, as 
>is defensive use of lasers.  What about screens, dampers, and black globe?

As optional add-on's, yes.  Just do Sandcasters at first.  Then add
defensive lasers. Then add the others as options.

>What sort of attacks should be allowed?  I like lasers and missiles, but 
>should we add others?

Well, if you have optional rules for screens, dampers,and bg's then you
should include optional rules for particle and meson beams. 

Just do Lasers on the first pass..Lasers vs Sandcasters.  Then add Missles
vs defensive Lasers. Then add particle beams, etc.

>What about rules for boarding?  When are participants allowed to board 
>opposing ships?

Without any closing movement, that's a good question.  Maybe for movement
you should have three choices:  evade (run away), maintain distance (keep
range constant), close (close in for a boarding action).


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 16:22:52 -0500
Subject: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal)

Joe,

Here is a counter Proposal for the Ridiculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC)
System.  I have a suspicion that it's somewhere between your's and T4's
basic system.

===========================================================
                    The RSSC System

Ranges...    

There are 5 abstract ranges:  Out of Contact, Out of Range, Long Range,
Short Range and Contact.

Out of Contact  - beyond sensor range, unsighted
Out of Range    - sighted but out of weapons range
Long Range      - Long range weapons may fire
Short Range     - Long and short range weapons may fire
Contact         - Ships are in contact for boarding, no weapon fire

A ship may attempt to move from any range to any adjacent range during a
combat turn: Short to Contact, Long to Out of Range, etc.


Movement actions...

The three movement actions are:  Evade (move away), Maintain (stay in same
range band), Close (draw closer).

Movement is based on a ship's Mdrive rating + appropriate crew skills.


Weapons...

Totally abstract at this point.


Beginning...

This process begins at the range determined by the GM (usually Out of
Range).


Roleplaying...

Roleplaying is be encouraged at each step in this process:  PC's may
attempt to communicate with the other ship; roleplay damage control
attempts, undertake Boarding actions (when possible), or anything else they
want to do.


The Process...

1.  Initiative (contest of Leadership+Ship's Tactics Skills)
    Each side rolls 1d6+Leadership+Ship's Tactics.  Highest number
    has Initiative.
    
2.  Movement
    A. Player WITHOUT Initiative attempts movement action.  Call
        Evade, Maintain, or Close (Contest of Ship's Mdrives+Ship's
        Tactics).  Highest number wins, but player	WITH Initiative
        may concede contest.
    B. Player WITH Initiative attempts movement action.  Call Evade,
        Maintain, or Close (Contest of Ship's Mdrives+Ship's
        Tactics). High number wins.

[Comment:  By making the player without initiative move first you give the
player with Initiative the advantage of seeing what her opponent is doing
before moving.  Also, notice that the player with Initiative can *let* her
opponent's action succeed.]

3.  Attack
    A. Player WITH Initiative attempts to attack
        1. Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense, and damage applied
        2.  Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense, and damage
            applied
    B. Player WITHOUT Initiative attempts to attack    
        1. Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense, and damage applied
        2.  Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense, and damage
            applied

[Comment:  Here we let the player with Initiative go first.  I abstracted
the process of determining the success or failure of the attacks and how
the damage is applied at this point.  I'd like to see Sensor and Gunnery
skills involved in this as well as some measure of the attacking weapon's
effectiveness vs defensive weapon's effectiveness.  This should be a skill
contest too, but the weapons have to be taken into account.  Damage could
be handled in several ways, but at this point let's just leave it in the
air.]

4. Repeat as needed.

===========================================================

Am I getting too complicated?  What do you think?


Eris        
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:46:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4: RSSC

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/18/96 at 01:28 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
> 
> >For those who are interested in a rediculously simple space combat system,
> >here is a first draft outline of what I would consider to be such a 
> >system.  
> 
> Never one for overstatment, are you Joe?  <g> 

Heh. :)

> This is basically, "You stand over there, and I'll stand over here and we
> shoot at each other until:  a. somebody runs, b. somebody dies, c. we run
> out of bullets."  <g>
> 
> I like it!

Good!  Then you're in the exclusive club of RSSC designers. [G]  


> I see this kind of system being used, not in warship vs warship type
> combat, but when the PC's lightly armed ship takes on another lightly armed
> ship, say pirates, custom's boat, or something like that.  Is that how you
> see it?

That's exactly it.  When my players had their far/fat/free trader, and a 
lightly armed pirate ship closed with them, we'd run the simple ship 
combat system we developed.  But this, as you note, isn't suitable for 
large battles. 


> Why not Ship's Tactics skill?  The Pilot (or Commander) having that skill
> should give their ship advantages in the combat and the only real advantage
> you are allowing is first shot/evade.

You are exactly right, Ship's Tactics skill should be used.  But, I have 
an excellent reason for not using that: it's not a part of T4.  :)  It's 
now called simply, "Tactics."  :)  Which is a long way of saying you're 
right, I goofed.  Replace "leadership" with "tactics."


> >2.  Movement
> >	A)  The initiative winner may choose to flee unopposed.
> >	B)  The initiative loser may choose to flee, but the other side
> >            is entitled to one final attack.
> 
> I get your point, but why would you ever choose (B)?  
> 
> Why not make this a contest of skills (maybe Tactics again), where complete
> success means (A)+you get the last shot, partial success means (A), partial
> failure means (B), and complete failure means you fail to break the
> engagement off.

You're right again.  Thank God I labelled this a "first draft overview!" ;)

I'll make the change you suggest here, too.


> Hopefully, you are going to use skills like Gunnery here?  Skill contests
> between the two sides Gunnery skills might work well.  Come to think of it,
> contests of Sensor Skills should come into play too.

You mean for sandcasters vs. lasers?  A skill contest sounds reasonable 
for that.  

As for sensors...I have no idea how to work them in, unless we go with a 
range band system...which means we'd end up with something very close to 
the system in T4. 

> I don't have a problem totally abstracting it to:  (1) stay and fight, or
> (2) run.  Range *is* a problem though.  T4's basic system uses range bands
> doesn't it?  That's as complicated as *I* want to go, and even then it
> could be as simple as:  long range, close range, contact (for boarding).

Without range, your sensor ops technician has nothing to do.  With it, we 
have T4 Space Combat.  I dunno.

> As optional add-on's, yes.  Just do Sandcasters at first.  Then add
> defensive lasers. Then add the others as options.

Makes sense.

> Well, if you have optional rules for screens, dampers,and bg's then you
> should include optional rules for particle and meson beams. 
> 
> Just do Lasers on the first pass..Lasers vs Sandcasters.  Then add Missles
> vs defensive Lasers. Then add particle beams, etc.

Sounds good.  Levels of complexity...

> Without any closing movement, that's a good question.  Maybe for movement
> you should have three choices:  evade (run away), maintain distance (keep
> range constant), close (close in for a boarding action).

If we decide not to do ranges and movement, that would work for 
boarding.  

I'm still unsure as to whether we should use ranges, though.  Any more 
comments?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 18:00:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal)

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> Here is a counter Proposal for the Ridiculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC)
> System.  I have a suspicion that it's somewhere between your's and T4's
> basic system.

It is...

> 
> ===========================================================
>                     The RSSC System
> 
> Ranges...    
> 
> There are 5 abstract ranges:  Out of Contact, Out of Range, Long Range,
> Short Range and Contact.
> 
> Out of Contact  - beyond sensor range, unsighted
> Out of Range    - sighted but out of weapons range
> Long Range      - Long range weapons may fire
> Short Range     - Long and short range weapons may fire
> Contact         - Ships are in contact for boarding, no weapon fire
> 
> A ship may attempt to move from any range to any adjacent range during a
> combat turn: Short to Contact, Long to Out of Range, etc.

Sounds good.

> Movement actions...
> 
> The three movement actions are:  Evade (move away), Maintain (stay in same
> range band), Close (draw closer).
> 
> Movement is based on a ship's Mdrive rating + appropriate crew skills.

Interesting.  Base the chance for moving on the Mdrive rating.  I like that.

> Roleplaying...
> 
> Roleplaying is be encouraged at each step in this process:  PC's may
> attempt to communicate with the other ship; roleplay damage control
> attempts, undertake Boarding actions (when possible), or anything else they
> want to do.

This should be what this system is all about. :)  I'm glad you mentioned it.

> The Process...
> 
> 1.  Initiative (contest of Leadership+Ship's Tactics Skills)
>     Each side rolls 1d6+Leadership+Ship's Tactics.  Highest number
>     has Initiative.

Good, but Leadership+Tactics(T4), though. :)


> 2.  Movement
>     A. Player WITHOUT Initiative attempts movement action.  Call
>         Evade, Maintain, or Close (Contest of Ship's Mdrives+Ship's
>         Tactics).  Highest number wins, but player	WITH Initiative
>         may concede contest.
>     B. Player WITH Initiative attempts movement action.  Call Evade,
>         Maintain, or Close (Contest of Ship's Mdrives+Ship's
>         Tactics). High number wins.
> 
> [Comment:  By making the player without initiative move first you give the
> player with Initiative the advantage of seeing what her opponent is doing
> before moving.  Also, notice that the player with Initiative can *let* her
> opponent's action succeed.]

This makes sense, and is "proper" under T4's Ground Combat rules, which 
use the same initiative/movement order.


> 3.  Attack
>     A. Player WITH Initiative attempts to attack
>         1. Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense, and damage applied
>         2.  Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense, and damage
>             applied
>     B. Player WITHOUT Initiative attempts to attack    
>         1. Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense, and damage applied
>         2.  Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense, and damage
>             applied
> 
> [Comment:  Here we let the player with Initiative go first.  I abstracted
> the process of determining the success or failure of the attacks and how
> the damage is applied at this point.  I'd like to see Sensor and Gunnery
> skills involved in this as well as some measure of the attacking weapon's
> effectiveness vs defensive weapon's effectiveness.  This should be a skill
> contest too, but the weapons have to be taken into account.  Damage could
> be handled in several ways, but at this point let's just leave it in the
> air.]

Sounds good in theory, but we could easily get to the point where each 
side is adding and subtracting many different values.  Not bad if you 
only have to do it once per battle, but if any of those vary during the 
battle (due to damage or changing range, for instance) then it could become 
cumbersome.

> 4. Repeat as needed.
> 
> ===========================================================
> 
> Am I getting too complicated?  What do you think?

T4 Ship Combat is a 10-step process comprised of: Task Force Assembly, 
Initiative, Range, Break Off, Sensor Action, Declare Fire, Weapon Fire, 
Launch/Recover Vessels, Breakthrough, and Pursuit.  If we add the last 
three to the RSSC, we essentially have the T4 system.  Perhaps there is 
no need for a RSSC.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:08:58 -0300
Subject: Comments on the "Goffin" Declararion

Overall, I like the tone of this text.  It is a sufficiently forceful
document, does not have a lot of pseuo-legalize, does not mess around with
fluff about "rights" and get down to the meat:

1. I'm the bloody emperor.

2. You all get to run your own show he way you always have

3. Don't bugger up trade,

>
>Here's a quick draft.  I haven't counted the words.  Please pick it apart,
>as the various negotiators would've done in the year -5.
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__________
>
>Declaration of the Imperium
>
>1.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, and the Nobility and Worlds of this region, hereby
>establish and declare the Third Imperium. =20
>
>2.  The Imperium has jurisdiction over all matters in interstellar and jump
>space. =20
>

I would add something to the effect "... and over all interstellar travel"


>3.  The Worlds retain their own sovereignty, but hereby declare their
>everlasting allegiance to the Imperium.  Worlds subsequently admitted to the
>Imperium shall declare their everlasting allegiance to the Imperium, and
>shall subscribe to this Declaration.  The Worlds have jurisdiction over all
>matters within their star systems, except where the exercise of such
>jurisdiction interferes with Imperial jurisdiction.
>

In Glenn's gloss, he suggested that the word "sovereignty" was
inappropriate, sincete worlds were not entirely sovereign.  Nonsense!  The
word "sovereign" means exactly what you need it to mean at the time!


>4.  The Nobles hereby declare their everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon
>Zhunastu, and to our heirs and legitimate successors, and to their own
>lieges and vassals.  Nobles subsequently created shall declare their
>everlasting allegiance to us, Cleon Zhunastu, and to our heirs and
>legitimate successors, and to their own lieges and vassals, and shall
>subscribe to this Declaration.
>
>5.  The Worlds and Nobles shall not restrict interstellar trade and
>commerce, and hereby forswear any claimed right, authority, or jurisdiction
>to do so.=20
>
>6.  The Worlds and Nobles hereby adopt the Imperial calendar, according to
>the regulations of the Imperial Calendar Compliance Office.  World
>subsequently admitted and Nobles subsequently created shall likewise adopt
>the Imperial calendar.
>
>7.  We, Cleon Zhunastu, are hereby declared Emperor and absolute ruler of
>this Imperium, ultimate liege lord of the Nobles, and commander in chief of
>all armed forces of the Imperium, for as long as We shall live.  Our heirs
>and legitimate successors shall become Emperor upon Our death or abdication,
>as shall their heirs and legitimate successors, in perpetuity.  We, Cleon
>Zhunastu, and our heirs and legitimate successors in perpetuity, are hereby
>empowered to rule by decree, and to establish and disband and empower such
>institutions and organizations as may from time to time be necessary to
>govern the Imperium.
>

Oh, I like this "empower such institutions as may from time to time be
necessary."  You can do anything you want with this.

>8.  The Nobles of the Imperium constitute the Moot.  The Moot shall meet
>from time to time to consider matters of importance to the governance of the
>Imperium, and shall advise the Emperor thereon.  The Moot may by consent of
>all of its members in attendance declare the termination of the Imperium.
>


I would change this to "from time to time at the Emperor's discression"

Also, what about imperial revenues?  Is that covered under "such
institutions..." or is their a clause needed along the lines of "...may
assess from any planetary government any tribute of any amount or form as
should be deemed neccessary for the govenance of the Empire.."?  Should the
Moot have to agree to something like that?

Finally, I have never heard of a institution such as this with a "disilusion
clause,"  is it a good idea?

>Subscribed to this ___ day of the year 0 by
>
>Cleon Zhunastu
>
>nobles
>
>representatives of worlds
>
>____________________________________________________________________________=
>___
>
>Everyone is encouraged to think like lawyers!
>
>
>- --Glenn
>
>
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:04:16 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4: RSSC

Moin Joe Walsh,

> As I see it, one of the major complications in ship-to-ship combat is 
> movement.

	IMHO movement is the most interesting part in space combat.
	Ok being uncertain about sensor tasks is also very nice.

> What about rules for boarding?  When are participants allowed to board 
> opposing ships?

	Boarding is trivial if a ship is drifting and has no
	PP for the lasers.

	IMHO boarding is posible if the ship is only capable of 1g
	as thuster packs perform 2g. The ship has to have a velocity
	where the boarding party can reach the ship.

	Get connected to the ship :

	- e-suit difficult (ships evasion makes this formidable (1g), or
	  imposible (2g))

	Disable thusters, lasers, etc.

	- enabling : e-suit average + technican difficult
	  (disabling thusters can be hasadrus)

	Get on board :

	- Mining laser average

	The most crasy part when boarding are the last two clicks
	before the party can connect to the ship, as the ship can
	fire lasers on the party. But they need a formidable sensor
	lock (a Vac-Suite is sub micro), or if the party is equiped
	with EMM-Vac-Suits the ship needs an imposible sensor lock
	on short range.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 19:15:56 -0500
Subject: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

On 08/18/96 at 06:00 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> Here is a counter Proposal for the Ridiculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC
>> System.  I have a suspicion that it's somewhere between your's and T4's
>> basic system.

>It is...

>> Am I getting too complicated?  What do you think?

>T4 Ship Combat is a 10-step process comprised of: Task Force Assembly, 
>Initiative, Range, Break Off, Sensor Action, Declare Fire, Weapon Fire, 
>Launch/Recover Vessels, Breakthrough, and Pursuit.  If we add the last 
>three to the RSSC, we essentially have the T4 system.  Perhaps there is 
>no need for a RSSC.

I really don't know, I don't have the *dang* book!  ;-<  

Does T4 use the PC's skills for each action?  Does it make the combat
basically a contest of (skills + system quality) between the 2 ships?

I'd like to keep looking at this though, and if it starts looking just like
T4 (or just as complicated) them we can drop it.

Now, I've already got some modifications for my modification! ;->

1.  The ship's MDrive rating is the number of d6's you add to your Tactics
skill.

2.  Ties go to the ship with Initiative.

3.  If the number of d6's goes negative, that's the number of dice you
subtract from you Tactics skill.
                                                             
Here's the start of a short battle:

Fast Pirate (MD4, Leadership 8, Tactics 8, Base Init=16, wants to
    close to short range and then board)

    vs 

Slow Trader(MD1, Leadership 6, Tactics 12, Base Init=18,wants to
    avoid the fight, but if it can't prefers long range exchanges of
    laser fire)

Trader Joe is surprised by the Pirate coming around the Gas Giant. They
start Out of Range.

Round 1
Initiative: Pirate Ship 16+1d6 (3) = 19
            Trader Ship 18+1d6 (2) = 20 *wins
            
Pirate Moves: Attempt to Close to Long  8+4d6 (13)=21* wins
              Attempt to Block         12+1d6 (6) =18                           


Ships are at Long Range

Trader Moves: Attempt to Evade to Out of Rng 12+1d6 (6) =18
              Attempt to Block                8+4d6 (14)=22* wins 
                
Ships remain at Long Range

Trader Attacks with Long Range Weapons and Pirate defends, there is a hit
on the Pirate's engines dropping him to MD3.

Pirate Attacks and Trader defends, minor hull damage.

End of Round 1

Round 2
Initiative: Pirate 16+1d6 (5) = 21
            Trader 18+1d6 (5) = 23* wins

Pirate Moves: Attempt to Close to Short  8+3d6 (9) =17
              Attempt to Block          12+1d6 (5) =17* wins 

Ships remain at Long Range

Trader Moves: Attempt to Evade to Out of Rng 12+1d6  (3) =15
              Attempt to Block                8+3d6 (14) =22* wins
              
Ships remain at Long Range

Trader Attacks and Pirate defends, hit on sensor array reducing firing
accuracy.

....etc, etc.

This part seems to work pretty good.  <g> Of course, I haven't even
*looked* at weaponry at all, so it could start getting more
complicated...don't know yet.

Comments?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 19 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 332

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Founding document
         3. randy iquanas
         4. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)
         5. Observations of an Industry....
         6. Establishing Document (longish!)
         7. Am I guessing right?
         8. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)
         9. Imperial Document
        10. Imperial Constition
        11. Imperial Citizenship
        12. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        13. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        14. Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

>From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>

>For the end of the document, I would include something called The Twleve 
>Precepts.  Like the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights, these Precepts are
not 

A preface to my comments on the 12 Precepts:  The Imperium is not a
constitutional monarchy.  It is a hands-off autocracy -- i.e., the autocrat
keeps his or her hands off the internal affairs of the member states and
nobles, and does whatever he or she wants elsewhere.

>The Twelve Precepts
>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>origin, is a protected
>being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.

This is canon.  I take "protected" to mean only protected from enemies
external to the Imperium, however, and not to mean protected by civil
rights.  Otherwise, the Imperium gets inextricably enmeshed in local governance.

>2.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of Imperial member worlds,
subject 
>to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>

Internal sovereignty (which I've elsewhere called suzerainty, borrowing from
Britain's treaty with the Orange Free State) should be guaranteed, but
within the document itself, rather than in a codicil.  It's a big carrot to
balance the twin sticks of the Imperial Navy and external enemies.

>3.  A guarantee of the internal sovereignity of the thoughts and beleifs of 
>Imperial citizens. 

Absolutely not!  This is directly contradictory to 2, supra.  

Remember, too, that the Psionics Suppressions don't occur for 800 years
after the founding of the Imperium, and that psionics were legal, if not
widely understood or practiced, until then.  So governments that practice
any form of telepathic monitoring will be subject to lawsuits (or even
insurrection) by citizens claiming a right to freedom of thought.  

In addition, absolute theocracies will never join an Imperium that
legitimizes freedom of thought.

Steve's comments that Joe Average is necessary to the Imperium, and must
therefore be the subject of proper marketing, are well taken, but the focus
will have to be on protection from external enemies and protection of the
status quo.  If Joe doesn't like the status quo, he's a discipline problem
anyway.

>4.  A guarantee of the right of free passage for Imperial Citizens within 
>Imperial space, again subject to the safety, security and well-being of the 
>Imperium.

Free passage of goods and money (i.e., free trade) necessarily contemplates
free passage of people.  Such free passage should also be subject to the
safety, etc., needs of Worlds and Nobles.

>5.  A guarantee of the right of Imperial nobles to Imperial justice, and to 
>appeal to higher nobility.

The Imperium ratified all existing vassal/liege relationships; to the extent
that these provided for judicial redress, that right would still exist.  No
special provision is necessary.

>6.  A guarantee of the right of all Imperial Citizens to due process, subject 
>to the safety, security and well-being of the Imperium.  <BIG loophole here>

Again, no way!  See my response to 3, supra.  This will drag the Imperium
into all of the minutiae of local governance, which is the opposite of the
parties' objective.

>7.  A statement of the responsibility of Imperial member worlds and
citizens to 
>support the Imperium and its laws, by action and through taxes

The member worlds and nobles are the parties to the Imperium, and have the
obligation to pay taxes and provide armed forces.  How they raise the taxes
and armies is between them and their citizens or vassals.  The amount that
they have to raise is between them and the Imperium, and is based on
individual treaties (which are not necessarily public documents).

>8.  An acknowledgement of the power of the Emperor to mete out justice, and to 
>overturn any ruling from a lower noble or court. 

The Emperor should be identified in the document itself as the supreme
judicial officer of the Imperium.

>9.  A statement of immunity from local laws and justice for the Emperor and
the 
>Imperial family

I probably don't object.

>10.  A limitation of the laws of Imperial members worlds to apply to those 
>worlds alone, and not to extend to Imperial space or territory.

No objection.

>11.  An extension of the Imperial immunity from local justice to include the 
>Moot and the Imperial Household.

Why not include this in 9?

>12.  An acknowledgement that, when a conflict exists between an Imperial
law or 
>decree and a law or decree from an Imperial member world or lesser noble, the 
>Imperial law or decree holds precedence

Definitely.

>Somewhat cynical sounding, but remember that the Emperor (Cleon) is no fool, 
>and understands that his power can only e used sparingly; constant
interference 
>in local events will wear him out, and will make him very unpopular.
Unpopular 
>leaders would likely have a short lifespan.

I agree with your analysis here, but I think that it would shake out
differently in the  legal and political structure.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:02:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Founding document

>From: Wesley.Esser@haledorr.com

>         For whatever reason,
>         enough nobles support his claim that at a Federation gathering the
>         nobles "spontaneously" swear swear an oath of fealty to Cleon:  by
>         acclaimation of the gathered nobles back Cleon Zhunastu's claim to
>         be the sole remaining heir of the 2nd imperium (and by extension,
>         the 1st).

The whatever reason is Cleon's and his faction's arm-twisting and bribery
before the "spontaneous" oath.

>         After this, one would assume that there would be some minor
>         skirmishing between factions supporting Cleon and those who
>         favored the Federation (or perhaps a rival claimant).  This could
>         either be a major struggle or a minor annoyance, whichever seems
>         more interesting from the storytelling point.  [deletion]

>         The problem with the previously suggested documents (IMHO) is that
>         they are too specific.  I never saw the Imperium as a
>         constitutional monarchy, with an Emporor limited by law, but as a
>         construct built out of the tug-of-war between the nobles, as
>         represented by the Moot, and the Emporer.  When the Emporer is
>         weak, as at the begining of a reign, or during a regency, the Moot
>         will assert it's powers, when the Emporer is strong, the Moot will
>         receede in importance.  Tradition is the basis of the power play,
>         and expediency, not law.  [deletion]

I agree with this analysis, but not with its conclusion, that the fealty
oath is the only document founding the Imperium.  Resolution of the
three-way power struggle (Cleon, nobles, and worlds not under direct noble
rule) would be memorialized in a marketing document -- i.e., a document to
be used to market the idea of the Imperium within itself and to potential
new members.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: randy iquanas

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>> And sex, of course...them iquanas was randy suckers, they was.
>
>Well, yeah.  What would be the point of coming to Earth, meeting a 
>completely different, intelligent species, if not to have sex with them?

I know that our recruiting -- for military, higher education, corporate and
professional careers, the Peace Corps, etc. -- is based on that model.  Why
wouldn't the aliens' recruiting be?

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 05:52:21 GMT
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)

On Aug 17, 1996 09:49:14, 'Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>' wrote: 
>Stuart L. Dollar wrote: 
>> Not really...  As I recall, Cleon made it very clear that he was 
>> denying citizen ships to robots, etc...  Besides which the Imperium 
>> in TNE (Regency) doesn't even acknowledge that a friendly Virus can 
>> exist... 
> 
>WARNING THE FOLLOWING IS SAID ENTIERLY IN JEST.   
>PLEASE DO NOT BECOME OFFENDED BY IT. 
>So you're saying Cleon was a racist determined to keep the robot in a  
>slave like role.   
> 
>In essence he was no better than the Solomani, a two faced lying SOB  
>intent upon denying basic human rights to a limited group of individuals  
>based on their external appearance. 
 
Less extreme, but similar, yes.  Remember the big  
hoop-dee-do about Vilani nobles marrying into the 
Royal family? 
 
>Actually it's worth a thought, perhaps the Third Imperium managed to keep 

>itself afloat though the universal use of slavery...  Hummm... 
 
I'm of the opinion that most political repression in the 
Imperium was done under the rubric of "local culture." 
 
The local authorities get the blame for being cruel, 
greedy, and opressive, while the Imperium rides 
high and noble above it (but doing nothing to  
change it due to the rule of local sovreignty). 
 
Not to imply that every local government was like  
this, far from it. But there were also plenty of places 
where it was true. 
 
>Derek Stanley 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 01:59:09 -0400
Subject: Observations of an Industry....

I watch... I read... I listen.... and sometimes I speak.

One thing that comes to mind right now is the miracle that's happening
online.
Nowhere in the gaming industry is the closeness of the Traveller enthusiasts
matched.  I have read notes and letters from most of the 'dream team' behind
T4.  These haven't been just casual speeches from company execs talking to
the lowly customers.... no.... these letters have been intelligent,
thoughtful, and INTERACTIVE between both the creators and their loyal public.
 This is an occurance that is without match in any industry I've ever seen...
 Who would have thought that the mailing list would have been instrumental in
the actual publication of any part of the newest version of Traveller?  I for
one think that all of the individuals involved deserve a round of applause
for their insight and their willingness to work WITH the very people that
they are writing the book(s) for!  The applause should be also for the
individuals of the mailing list that have given their comments and opinions
on a varity of aspects of the Traveller universe and the production of the
newest incarnation of Traveller.  The more I read, the more faith I have that
Traveller is being set up to really make a big splash in the gaming
industry.... T4 (typos and all) will be a big winner... if for no other
reason than that the interaction between the creators and the gamers is so
active and close that errors can be corrected almost as fast as they're
found.  Can TSR match that?  Not this year.... <grin>

Russ


------------------------------

From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Date: 19 Aug 96 18:23:39 +0000
Subject: Establishing Document (longish!)

     
This was penned by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au, who 
asked me to forward this on.

     IMPERIAL ESTABLISHING DOCUMENT
     
     I think that Wesley Esser's Declaration of Restoration is brilliant. 
     The Grand Imperium of the Stars! Seems to have the right balance to 
     me, and gives the Emperor all the power he wants, while leaving most 
     problems to be solved by the nobility and individual planets. 
     
     The Third Imperium would only be called that by political scientists 
     and citizens - the Imperium would 'legally' be the First Imperium, 
     just as the Rule of Man was still the First Imperium, (it even 
     retained the Vilani nobility!) just with Solomani overlords. 
     
     I also agree with (somebody's!) suggestion that this declaration 
     should invite former Imperial worlds to 'reaffirm their loyalty' to 
     the Emperor; the Pacification Campaigns (Vland, Solomani Rim, Antares 
     and so on) would have happened when these 'Imperial worlds' declared 
     their independence (and therefore became rebels against the Third 
     Imperium - a bit dubious legally, but if you've got the guns...!). 
     
     My model for the Declaration would be as Wesley has outlined, with 
     minor changes, since what Cleon was doing was trying to establish 
     LEGITIMACY for his (essentially self-declared and illegal) new 
     Imperium. What Cleon's declaration needs is: 
     
     1. a call to historical precedent - what better way than declaring 
     your empire to be the legitimate descendant of a previous empire - 
     look at the German Third Reich (descent from Second Reich - German 
     Empire and First Reich - Roman Empire I think), the American Republic 
     (descended from British parliamentary democracy, American colonies, 
     and United States Confederation), Austro-Hungarian Empire (descended 
     from Habsburg & Holy Roman Empire which itself claimed descent from 
     Roman Empire) etc etc etc. 
     
     2. appeal to logic & security - need for peace and good governance, 
     economic development, protection vs. enemies, pirates, and so on. 
     
     3. establishing legitimate channels of power in the Imperium, both 
     physically (nobility) and through time (inheritance of noble title, 
     authority of Emperor to nominate new nobles)
     
     4. base of legitimacy upon the support of the existing Sylean nobility 
     (so of course the declaration would have to give them something!) - 
     therefore the Moot would be affirmed as the seat of the Imperium's 
     legitimacy, hence its power to dissolve the Imperium (essentially a 
     vote of no confidence!) and confirm Imperial heirs. Cleon would also 
     declare the Moot to be an advisory body to the Emperor, letting him 
     have the Moot do a lot of legislative donkey work while allowing Cleon 
     essentially a veto anyway! 
       - the Moot's later ineffectiveness would have come from the growth 
     of the Imperial bureaucracy and a long tradition of the Moot telling 
     the Emperor what he wants to hear anyway. 
     
     In order to get the nobility to sign on to his declaration (and 
     incidentally support him with their military and economic resources), 
     I think that Cleon would have given the Moot a fairly impressive set 
     of vague powers, knowing that in PRACTICE it could never get its act 
     together to oppose him. And of course reserve a veto power to himself 
     in case the Moot DOES get its act together. 
     
     The Moot itself would be ENORMOUS - literally thousands or tens of 
     thousands of nobles present, with theoretical membership in the 
     millions. Power would reside in various sub-Moots/committees/councils, 
     allowing most nobles to have a proxy vote represented and never having 
     to attend. Of course this setup would be a complete sh*tfight, 
     allowing the Emperor to do whatever he wants. Which is of course what 
     Cleon would have wanted all along. 
     
     Comments? Praise? Send to 
     michael.barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
     
     Flames? Send to bill.gates@microsoft.com or to 
     president@whitehouse.gov
     


------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 23:48:43 +0900
Subject: Am I guessing right?

I ordered a hardcover, so I haven't seen anything official yet (but I'm 
hoping that "still at the printers" = errors being corrected), but I think 
I've noticed a minor problem just from reading what others post about jump 
fuel in T4.

Thruster ships will need lots of jump fuel to offset the advantage of not 
needing lots of maneuver fuel (required by HEPlaR).

There will still be HEPlaR ships in the game (lower TL).

These ships will be high enough TL to have jump drives (my assumption - 
could be wrong).

This means that HEPlaR ships with jump drives will be almost all fuel.

Is this correct?

- - Armand


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:50:57 -0700
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)

John H Bogan Jr wrote:

>>WARNING THE FOLLOWING IS SAID ENTIERLY IN JEST.
>>PLEASE DO NOT BECOME OFFENDED BY IT.
>>So you're saying Cleon was a racist determined to keep the robot in a
>>slave like role.
> >
>>In essence he was no better than the Solomani, a two faced lying SOB
>>intent upon denying basic human rights to a limited group of 
>>individuals based on their external appearance.
> 
> Less extreme, but similar, yes.  Remember the big
> hoop-dee-do about Vilani nobles marrying into the
> Royal family?

Nasty Cleon, Nasty Cleon.  It hurt's ussss,  It hurts ussss.

This strikes me as pretty hypocritical, on one hand he's giving everyone 
equal rights and on the other hand he's saying so long as they're organic 
and it doesn't interfere with any local customs.

>>Actually it's worth a thought, perhaps the Third Imperium managed to 
>>keep itself afloat though the universal use of slavery...  Hummm...
> 
> I'm of the opinion that most political repression in the
> Imperium was done under the rubric of "local culture."
> 
> The local authorities get the blame for being cruel,
> greedy, and opressive, while the Imperium rides
> high and noble above it (but doing nothing to
> change it due to the rule of local sovreignty).
> 
> Not to imply that every local government was like
> this, far from it. But there were also plenty of places
> where it was true.

Yes but by merely turning it's back on these issues, perhaps turning a 
blind eye towards them you have pointed out one of the essential flaws of 
the Imperium.

"All citizens are created equal in the 3rd Imperium, unless you're a 
female Hadabranx from the planet Shrubbaries, in which case all your 
basic human rights are forefit because local custom deams it so, or if 
your a left handed basketball player on Jenovia 5 again local custom says 
one of you should be sacrificed to the sun god every morning at 8:00 
local time, sorry buddy that's a local customs issue, has nothing to do 
with me cuz I'm the Emperor."

By allowing this kind of senseless behavior to be perpetrated on it's 
citizens the 3rd Imperium was doomed to failure from it's very inception. 
 It was a poor government more concerned with the collection of taxes 
than the basic human rights of its populace.

Of course this is my own take on things.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Wesley.Esser@haledorr.com
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:49:39 -0400
Subject: Imperial Document

- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-3421
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-3421
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"







     I'm posting this for Michael Barry..

     James (copied to Wesley Esser for comments too)

     IMPERIAL ESTABLISHING DOCUMENT

     Have you had any thoughts on the Imperial Establishing Document? I am 
     back on TML/XBML but I'm too afraid to post anything in case I'm 
     bumped off again. SO if you'd be good enough to post this (plus any 
     comments of your own) I'd be grateful! Maybe grateful enough to lend 
     you that copy of the Atlas of the Imperium...

     I think that Wesley Esser's Declaration of Restoration is brilliant. 
     The Grand Imperium of the Stars! Seems to have the right balance to 
     me, and gives the Emperor all the power he wants, while leaving most 
     problems to be solved by the nobility and individual planets. 

     The Third Imperium would only be called that by political scientists 
     and citizens - the Imperium would 'legally' be the First Imperium, 
     just as the Rule of Man was still the First Imperium, (it even 
     retained the Vilani nobility!) just with Solomani overlords. 

     I also agree with (somebody's!) suggestion that this declaration 
     should invite former Imperial worlds to 'reaffirm their loyalty' to 
     the Emperor; the Pacification Campaigns (Vland, Solomani Rim, Antares 
     and so on) would have happened when these 'Imperial worlds' declared 
     their independence (and therefore became rebels against the Third 
     Imperium - a bit dubious legally, but if you've got the guns...!). 

     My model for the Declaration would be as Wesley has outlined, with 
     minor changes, since what Cleon was doing was trying to establish 
     LEGITIMACY for his (essentially self-declared and illegal) new 
     Imperium. What Cleon's declaration needs is: 

     1. a call to historical precedent - what better way than declaring 
     your empire to be the legitimate descendant of a previous empire - 
     look at the German Third Reich (descent from Second Reich - German 
     Empire and First Reich - Roman Empire I think), the American Republic 
     (descended from British parliamentary democracy, American colonies, 
     and United States Confederation), Austro-Hungarian Empire (descended 
     from Habsburg & Holy Roman Empire which itself claimed descent from 
     Roman Empire) etc etc etc. 

     2. appeal to logic & security - need for peace and good governance, 
     economic development, protection vs. enemies, pirates, and so on. 

     3. establishing legitimate channels of power in the Imperium, both 
     physically (nobility) and through time (inheritance of noble title, 
     authority of Emperor to nominate new nobles)

     4. base of legitimacy upon the support of the existing Sylean nobility 
     (so of course the declaration would have to give them something!) - 
     therefore the Moot would be affirmed as the seat of the Imperium's 
     legitimacy, hence its power to dissolve the Imperium (essentially a 
     vote of no confidence!) and confirm Imperial heirs. Cleon would also 
     declare the Moot to be an advisory body to the Emperor, letting him 
     have the Moot do a lot of legislative donkey work while allowing Cleon 
     essentially a veto anyway! 
       - the Moot's later ineffectiveness would have come from the growth 
     of the Imperial bureaucracy and a long tradition of the Moot telling 
     the Emperor what he wants to hear anyway. 

     In order to get the nobility to sign on to his declaration (and 
     incidentally support him with their military and economic resources), 
     I think that Cleon would have given the Moot a fairly impressive set 
     of vague powers, knowing that in PRACTICE it could never get its act 
     together to oppose him. And of course reserve a veto power to himself 
     in case the Moot DOES get its act together. 

     The Moot itself would be ENORMOUS - literally thousands or tens of 
     thousands of nobles present, with theoretical membership in the 
     millions. Power would reside in various sub-Moots/committees/councils, 
     allowing most nobles to have a proxy vote represented and never having 
     to attend. Of course this setup would be a complete sh*tfight, 
     allowing the Emperor to do whatever he wants. Which is of course what 
     Cleon would have wanted all along. 

     Comments? Praise? Send to 
     michael.barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au

     Flames? Send to bill.gates@microsoft.com or to 
     president@whitehouse.gov
- -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-3421--

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 10:02:04 -0400
Subject: Imperial Constition

Roderick Darroch Elliottm wrote:
....
>Any world that petitions to become a World
>of the Imperium, or which is attached by conquest or other means to the
>Imperium, shall become a World of the Imperium

It shouldn't mention the conquest of other worlds in the Constition, it
makes the Imperium seem like a bunch of war mongers.  Change it to just
petitions. Once you have invaded a world, you set up a new government,
it petitions for admission.  In the end its all the same, but it looks
better, to all the other non-aligned worlds.
Lewis

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Aug 1996 10:09:50 GMT
Subject: Imperial Citizenship

Assuming that Marc is keeping much of the published Traveller history,
Imperial Citizenship can't be granted to everyone at the start of the Third
Imperium, because a later emperor _extends_ citizenship to everyone as a move
to broaden support.

As this part of Traveller history is based, to a large extent, on the Roman
Empire, I suggest using a similar model, to whit:

Everyone living within the boundaries of the Third Imperium is an Imperial
Subject.  They have the priviledges of paying Imperial taxes (indirectly) and
following Imperial laws, are protected by the Imperium, and may enlist in the
auxiliary forces.

All citizens of the Sylean Federation become Imperial Citizens.  Imperial
Citizens are exempt from some taxes, have the right to have their legal cases
judged by an Imperial official, and may enlist in the Imperial forces.

Citizenship is hereditory.  It may be conferred as a reward for faithful
service or conspicuous heroism.  (Twenty years service in the Scouts or
Auxiliary Forces, for example, would grant Imperial Citizenship.)


Keeping in mind that Cleon must protect and support his power base in Sylea,
the blanket granting of citizenship to all Syleans gives them a priveldged
position.  However, as Citizenship can be granted to and earned by
provincials, the most energetic of the conquered/allied provinces get coopted
into the system.  It worked for Rome!


------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:25:12 +0000
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

At 05:02 AM 8/19/96 +0000, sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:

>>The Twelve Precepts
>>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>>origin, is a protected
>>being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.
>
>This is canon.  I take "protected" to mean only protected from enemies
>external to the Imperium, however, and not to mean protected by civil
>rights.  Otherwise, the Imperium gets inextricably enmeshed in local
>governance.

The best thing about this definition is that it is so vague.  The nobles
would happily believe that this means protection from external enemies only,
while the opressed masses would see the Imperium as a liberator.  Cleon
could then do whatever he wants.  Generally, actual enforcement would be
limited to a prohibition on slavery and mass genocide.  But the Emperor
could intervene on a pretext whenever oil supplies (or whatever the Imperial
equivalent is) are threatened.

This is a fairly unworkable definition of citizenship, as any visiting
foreigner becomes a "citizen," but it may have appeared appropriate when the
Imperium was founded.  At that time, the Imperium, like its Roman and
Chinese predecessors, may have aspired to rule everything -- contemplating
that there would be no foreign powers.  A more realistic definition of
citizen may have evolved when the Imperium reached its practical limits (the
Rhine or the Marches) or suffered a major reverse (like the Persian or
Julian Wars).


------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:26:11 +0000
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

One thing that needs to be included is a paragraph establishing the Imperial
Navy, Imperial Army, and Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  Imperial
officers and enlisted men, like Imperial nobles, need to be given immunity
from local laws.

Member worlds need to be prohibited from establishing treaties or going to
war with foreign states, except as allowed by imperial decree, edict, or
whatever.

Also, drop the "We, Cleon ..."  From what I understand, this was adopted by
royalty to show the unity of their will with that of the diety's.  Not only
is that not applicable here, but it makes Cleon sound like he needs someone
else to establish the Imperium.  If he were doing it based solely on his own
power, he would refer to himself as "I, Cleon, First Emperor of the Grand
Imperium of the Stars, ..."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:54:06 -0800
Subject: Re: "Regardless of Origin..." (Imperial non-repression)

On 19 Aug 96 at 6:50, Derek Stanley spewed:

> By allowing this kind of senseless behavior to be perpetrated on it's 
> citizens the 3rd Imperium was doomed to failure from it's very inception. 

All governments are inevitably doomed to failure...they're designed 
by people, after all...

Undoubtedly, a thousand years from now, students in a class will be 
studying the curious western democratic governments of the 20th 
century, laughing at the stupid assumptions on which they were based, 
and remark about how their governments were doomed to failure...

I just shudder to thinks what objets d'art will survive into 4th 
millenia... Baywatch, Saved by the Bell, Debbie Gibson, Madonna, 
Friday the 13th, Part 8, ...the HORROR...  ;-) 

"Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it." -George 
Santayana

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 19 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 333

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Using Visio for DeckPlans
         3. Re: none
         4. T4 Consolidated Errata List
         5. Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution
         6. RSSC
         7. RSSC
         8. Re: T4 Consolidated Errata List
         9. Re: Establishing Document
        10. Vilani Conservatism
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #331 T4: RSSC
        12. Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2
        13. Re: RSSC
        14. Re: RSSC
        15. Re: Observations of an Industry....
        16. Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2
        17. Re: Observations of an Industry....
        18. Re: Precept 1
        19. Re: Simple Space Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:09:25 GMT
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

On Aug 17, 1996 22:37:38, 'Russell H Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>' wrote: 
 
>Just two things: 
> 
>1.  Ban on interstellar transpost and usage of nuclear weapons. 
 
No.  
 
(1) That would result in a virtually unarmed (except for the Imperial 
military) interstellar civilization, which is contrary to the 
ever-popular 'canon'.  The standard ship's missile is a nuclear weapon, 
if we're still using FF&S technology (which I believe we are...). 
 
(2) Unworkable, unenforceable by the loose hegemony depicted here, 
and illogical.  Any TL8+ world with uranium or thorium deposits 
can build nuclear weapons.  Any factory that can build fusion 
plants can build fusion bombs.  Any TL 9-11 HepLar/Fusion rocket 
*IS* an continually burning fusion bomb.  Too hard to restrict  
without draconian restrictions on trade, production, dissemination 
of information, etc--all things amounting to massive interference 
with individual planetary polities, which the 3rd Imperium is notorious 
for *NOT* doing. 
 
It's also illogical; this is not 20th century Western civilization, 
confined to one world, still working out the implications of this 
new weapon invented scarcely 50 years ago--this is the birth of the 
3rd Imperium, TEN THOUSAND YEARS after the Vilani started playing  
with radioactives...  Nucleomiteophobia will probably be a 20th-21st 
century Earth peculiarity.  There are so many other ways to cause 
massive death and destruction when you have high technology, that 
nuclear weapons shouldn't stand out as specially more significant. 
Throwing rocks and falling spaceships, bioengineered diseases,  
designer toxins, carpet-bombing with "conventional" weapons,  
induced stellar flares, anti-matter weaponry, offensive use of 
weather control, offensive use of flood "control", just use your 
imagination... 
 
It's also counter-productive, because nuclear weapons have their non-combat

uses--few faster & cheaper ways to split a really big rock, dig a huge  
ditch, make a big hole--especially in vacuum or deep space, where 
environmental concerns aren't an issue. 
 
(3) Rather than focusing on nuclear weapons, forbid/discourage 
mass destruction and genocide.  If you focus on the enabling technologies, 
you soon realize almost everything can be dangerous if misused, and 
you put a leash on *ALL* technological development.  (Maybe that's 
why the Vilani stagnated?)  See Pournelle's CoDominium for an  
example of a SciFi milieu that fell into that trap, and eventually 
collapsed because of it. 
 
>2.  Customs and tariffs with regard to trade from outside the Imperium. 
 
Unlikely.  I'll leave this for someone else to discuss. 
 
                       --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of 
 your weird friends."                         -- Eric Oehler 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 19 Aug 96 16:23:50 EDT
Subject: Using Visio for DeckPlans

Yo Folkes,
    One of my players got me Visio Technical 4.1 and I want to do
some deckplans with it. Has anyone out there used this and,
more importantly, do you have any shape libraries?
    Cheers,
       Jo
       jo_grant@crd.lotus.com

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:21:24 -0700
Subject: Re: none

Over the weekend Dave Barry said that the reason the computer virus worked was 
because the aliens had Windows 95 and were coming to Earth to destroy Bill 
Gates.  It was a pretty good column.  Check your Sunday paper.

Matt

------------------------------

From: pbravey@inference.co.uk
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 16:32:47 GMT
Subject: T4 Consolidated Errata List

Anyone with a T4 rule book fancy producing an errata list? By the time the book 
reaches the UK someone will have found most of the errors.

Paul


------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 18:03 +0100
Subject: Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution

I am not an expert in poli-sci but I have noticed two themes in the discussion 
about the proclamation that started the 3rd Imperium.  The first discussion is 
about what declaration Cleon I made.  The second discussion is based on the 
document that laid the foundation for laws (constitution).  I think there were 
two documents.

I would propose that both discussions are correct.  Cleon I did make an initial 
declaration (proclamation) where he stated in very grand terms the need for a 
change and a return to past glories.  In the proclamation he probably stated 
that "he and the nobles" declared the return to the past glory of the Imperiums 
by establishing the Third Imperium.  When he issued the initial proclamation his 
power base was still limited. If it wasn't, why have the Moot. I believe that 
Cleon I included the Moot to appease the nobles while he solidified his power 
base.  The proclamation may have been issued in Year 0 or before.

The constitution came after the proclamation.  It laid the foundation for the 
laws.  Since it came later, Cleon had had time to consolidate his power but like 
many kings and emperors throughout history, it still wasn't initially absolute. 
However, since he had a stronger power base, the constitution would be more 
directive and authoritarian.  Since his power was still not absolute, the Moot 
is still included but with relatively no powers.  The constitution could have 
been issued in Year 0 or a few years later after Cleon had a chance to increase 
his power.

By seperating the two documents, I think we enrich Imperium history and weave 
political intrigue into the beginnings of the Third Imperium.  My health 
issurance is paid up, fire away.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:57:45 -0800
Subject: RSSC

>> I don't have a problem totally abstracting it to:  (1) stay and fight, or
>> (2) run.  Range *is* a problem though.  T4's basic system uses range bands
>> doesn't it?  That's as complicated as *I* want to go, and even then it
>> could be as simple as:  long range, close range, contact (for boarding).
>
>Without range, your sensor ops technician has nothing to do.  With it, we
>have T4 Space Combat.  I dunno.

Have him add half his level to the gunnery asset? or, better yet, he can
try a progressive difficulty task (as I outlined it before), with each die
he managed to utilize being a +1 to gunner's  asset.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:57:37 -0800
Subject: RSSC

>The Rediculously Simple Space Combat (RSSC) System
>
>1.  Determine Initiative
>        Each side rolls 1D, with a DM of the task force commander's
>        leadership skill (if any).  Highest roll wins.
>
>2.  Movement
>        A)  The initiative winner may choose to flee unopposed.
>        B)  The initiative loser may choose to flee, but the other side
>            is entitled to one final attack.
>
I'd like to see some reflection of available thrust in the initiative and
esca[e sequence, as well as a bell curve.

Reccommend Initiative add 1/2 G's available.

Reccomend Escape roll be Plus G's Avail. and +1/2 pilot's tactics or pilot.

put both onto 2d6 rolls.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:38:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Consolidated Errata List

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 pbravey@inference.co.uk wrote:

> Anyone with a T4 rule book fancy producing an errata list? By the time the book 
> reaches the UK someone will have found most of the errors.
> 
> Paul

As I recall, only four errors (other than typographical/grammatical 
ones) have been found:

1)  Character Generation:  The mustering out rules in the text do not 
match the rank tables given in the character generation table section.
	Fix:  Use the Traveller Ranks from the Mercenary/High Guard/Merchant 
              Prince rank tables, until IG tells us otherwise.


2)  Character Generation:  Skills in the Character Generation Tables 
which are actually referring to Skill Clusters should be in bold-face, 
but are not.  
	Fix:  Using the Skills List from the next chapter, compare each 
              of the skills in each of the character generation tables,
              and highlight, underline, or otherwise signify those that
              are skill clusters.

3)  Skills:  In the Skills List and in the Skills Definitions, skills 
which are usable at level 0 should be signified by being printed in 
italics.  This is not the case.
	Fix:  In the Skills Definitions section, skills usable at level 0 
are still signified by the word "default" appearing in the heading for 
that skill.  You may want to highlight such skills in the Skills List for 
easier reference.

4)  QSDS:  The QSDS system is missing two Jump Drive tables.  
	Fix:  Download the system from the web page of Derek Wildstar 
(the author of the system):  http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/


Those are the only errors I know of.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 21:22 BST-1
Subject: Re: Establishing Document

In-Reply-To: <9608191506.AA13570@NS.MPGN.COM>
To summarise:

Who drafts the Constitution? The Emperor
Who amends the Constitution? The Emperor
Who passes legislation? The Emperor
Who decides if a law is constitutional? The Emperor

So what can the Emperor do? You would think pretty much whatever 
he likes. There is, after all, no Supreme Court to keep the 
Constitution clean of the grubby pawprints of politicians. 

But the power of the Moot to reject an heir to the Iridium Throne 
should not be taken lightly. For a hereditary monarch there's 
nothing so important than leaving your Imperium to your offspring. 
The fact that the Moot can, out of pique, deny your pride and joy, 
and give the throne instead to that third cousin you always hated 
means that you have to worry about keeping the nobles happy.The 
high nobility are powerful men and women. And, continuing in a 
family vein, remember who runs the Navy? The high nobles sit in 
the moot; their younger brothers and sisters sit on the bridges of 
battleships. Remember what Archduke Norris was before his brother 
died..

Nick


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 16:37:33 -0500
Subject: Vilani Conservatism

On 08/19/96 at 03:09 PM,  cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
said:

>(3) Rather than focusing on nuclear weapons, forbid/discourage  mass
>destruction and genocide.  If you focus on the enabling technologies,  you
>soon realize almost everything can be dangerous if misused, and  you put a
>leash on *ALL* technological development.  (Maybe that's  why the Vilani
>stagnated?)  

Bing!  Bing!  Bing!  <g> I think you're on to something here...

In my universe, that *is* the biggest reason the Vilani stagnated, the
biggest reason the Terrans were able to defeat them, the biggest reason the
Rule of Man eventually collapsed, and the biggest reason the 3rd Imperium
will *eventually* collapse.  Not the only reason for all these things, but
the comman thread running through the entire Traveller history.  The Vilani
dominate human interstellar culture and they distrust anything new,
technology included.

The Vilani are like the old Chinese.  They can be conquored by the
barbarian outsiders, but within a generation or two, the outsiders have
*become* Chinese.  So in the grand scheme of things, who has conquored
whom?  <g>

>See Pournelle's CoDominium for an   example of a SciFi milieu
>that fell into that trap, and eventually  collapsed because of it. 

Absolutely!

Have you ever thought about why so *few* people are traveling the starways? 
It's because the PC's are *exceptions* to the norm,
rogues each and every one of them!  That's what makes them *fun* to play. 
Most people are mundane, stay at home, old sticks in the mud, even in the
46th century!

Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Norm Fenlason <normf@cyberatl.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:14:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #331 T4: RSSC

How about an RRSSCS - a really, really, simple, space combat system.

I roll a d6, you roll a d6 if you are 2-over my roll, you get to declare 
the result, disabled or destroyed. If I am 2 over ditto. For ties, we 
check range, faster side declares it (just like CT). Round over.

Repeat until bored.

- --Norm Fenlason

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:08:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >three to the RSSC, we essentially have the T4 system.  Perhaps there is 
> >no need for a RSSC.
> 
> I really don't know, I don't have the *dang* book!  ;-<  
> 
> Does T4 use the PC's skills for each action?  Does it make the combat
> basically a contest of (skills + system quality) between the 2 ships?

No, it doesn't.  In all cases, it is system quality vs. system quality, 
with a note that "player skill may be used as well," leaving that aspect 
up to the individual referee.  This is the case with sensors (you have to 
lock on before you can even attempt to score a hit, and the other player 
can attempt to jam), firing weapons, etc. etc.


> I'd like to keep looking at this though, and if it starts looking just like
> T4 (or just as complicated) them we can drop it.

Sounds good.  I think we can definitely improve on T4, if nothing else.  
What we come up with may not be a truly RSSC system, but it will almost 
certainly be something better than what's in T4 (well..at least from OUR 
perspective! [G]).

> Now, I've already got some modifications for my modification! ;->
> 
> 1.  The ship's MDrive rating is the number of d6's you add to your Tactics
> skill.

Hmmm. Interesting.  

> 2.  Ties go to the ship with Initiative.

Good idea.

> 3.  If the number of d6's goes negative, that's the number of dice you
> subtract from you Tactics skill.

How would the number of d6's go negative?  Sorry, I'm slow tonight. :)

> Here's the start of a short battle:
[Battle snipped for brevity]
> ....etc, etc.
> 
> This part seems to work pretty good.  <g> Of course, I haven't even
> *looked* at weaponry at all, so it could start getting more
> complicated...don't know yet.
> 
> Comments?

The initiative part does seem to work pretty good.  

As for weapons fire, we can go with the T4 task system (difficulty based 
on range = # of dice to toss; target number based on some formula 
involving gunnery skill, weapons quality, target's G rating, attacker's 
fire control rating, target's pilot skill...more?), or invent something 
else entirely.

I move we use sensor rules like those in T4 (lock on required before you 
can even attemt to hit, defender can attempt to jam), but modified to 
reflect greater reliance on PC/NPC skill.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:10:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> >Without range, your sensor ops technician has nothing to do.  With it, we
> >have T4 Space Combat.  I dunno.
> 
> Have him add half his level to the gunnery asset? or, better yet, he can
> try a progressive difficulty task (as I outlined it before), with each die
> he managed to utilize being a +1 to gunner's  asset.

We could do that, but at this point I'm leaning to a T4-ish sensor 
lock/jam action for the sensor ops people.  What do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:11:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> I'd like to see some reflection of available thrust in the initiative and
> esca[e sequence, as well as a bell curve.
> 
> Reccommend Initiative add 1/2 G's available.

Eris has worked that one in...

> 
> Reccomend Escape roll be Plus G's Avail. and +1/2 pilot's tactics or pilot.

But we didn't consider pilot's skill, although we do have tactics covered.

Thanks for the suggestions!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:15:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Observations of an Industry....

<Bits about the closeness of the TML and Imperium Games snipped>

Very true, but it isn't unique to the TML.

I am also on the Harn-L list, and we've been witness to one of the oddest
things I have seen in 20 years of gaming.  Columbia Games, the publishers of
the Harn line, proudly unveiled their latest product: HarnMaster2.  This is
the first Harn product in nearly two *years*.

At the same time as the GenCon debut, the primary designer for Harn
announced (via the list) that he was going to self-publish a "better" update
of HarnMaster.

Today we got a message from Columbia Games' president.  He explained in
detail, in common language, and without pointing fingers at anyone, WHY Harn
has such a slow release record.

So you see, IG isn't the only Game Company to treat its dedicated fans
right; all the GOOD ones do.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|          Third Shift Kramer Krony          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 21:40:46 -0500
Subject: Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

On 08/19/96 at 07:13 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Are you keeping track of all this stuff?  I'm getting confused as to what 
>the system-in-progress looks like! :)  

>If you are keeping track, would you mind posting what we've agreed on so 
>far?  If you aren't, then let me know and I'll try to put something 
>together.

Uh? Have we agreed to *anything* yet? <g>  

I don't think we have a system yet, but here's what I think we've agreed
to:

General Principles...

1.  We want something simple for PC ship (non-warship) vs another
not-heavily armed ship.  The focus will be on 2 ship actions.  (If the
system doesn't get too complicated then *maybe* multi-ship could come
later.)

2.  Range and movement aren't especially important, but having a simple
abstracted system would be acceptable.

3.  We want to keep the rolls of dice, exceptions, and complicated rules
down to a minimum.

4.  We want skills to play a part in as many of the actions as possible.

*5.  Actions should be contests or skills+systems between the two ships.

* I think we agree with this one.

I'm not sure how much of this we've agreed on, but here's what I *think*
the system is...so far.

1.  Initiative contest (Leadership+dice) vs (Leadership+dice)

We are going to use Tactics in movement, so let's just use
Leadership for initiative, OK?  
    
Number of Dice:  1 is more simple, but 2 gives a bell curve which is more
realistic..I think.  What do you think?

2.  Movement (Initiative loser goes first, winner goes second)

Ranges:  

Are we going to use them?  I vote yes..for now.  The ranges should be
*extremely* abstract, if the players want to know that the boogie is
"347212 klicks outbound", then they don't want RSSC, they want something
BL-like.  If yes, then what ranges?  How do you feel about the ones I
proposed?  (Out of Sensor Range, Out of Range, Long Range, Short Range,
Contact) How about:  Undetected, Detected, Long, Short, Contact?
         
Movement:   A ship may try to change range by one band per turn.
            A ship may attempt to EVADE, MAINTAIN, or CLOSE
            
The Contest:  Tactics (?or 1/2 Pilot?)  + MD6, Tie goes to
                Initiative holder

My reasoning is that the just using the MDrive rating plus skill devalues
the hardware *too* much.  If we say the MDrive number is the number of D6's
you roll then it works out better, IMO.  What do you think?
    
BTW, I don't think MAINTAIN needs to be contested, so if both sides are
content to maintain the current range the movement part is simply skipped. 
Only if one side (or both) wants to change the range would you have to do
anything with movement.

In your comments you said the Initiative part looks OK, but you didn't
mention the movement.  How about that part?

3.  Combat (Initiative winner goes first, loser goes second)

You suggest...

>As for weapons fire, we can go with the T4 task system (difficulty
>based on range = # of dice to toss; target number based on some
>formula involving gunnery skill, weapons quality, target's G rating,
>attacker's fire control rating, target's pilot skill...more?), or
>invent something else entirely.

[I *do* wish I had the book! <g>]

1.  We should certainly use the numbers that are generated for the ship by
the SSDS.

2.  We'd be better off *not* trying to invent something brand new if what
we already have will work.  How complicated does T4 make it?
    
For simplicity could we come up with just Long and Short range, maybe just
pull numbers from 2 of the columns in T4's chart (I'm assuming there's a
chart)?

Attacker's would add (Gunnery skill)+(Some Weapon Factor)+(Fire Control).

Defender's would add (Range:  some # of dice)+(Some Kind of
Skill..here I'm not sure which ?Gunnery?)+(Some Defensive Weapon Factor)
    
I don't think I'd include Movement factors or Piloting skills here. The
weapons can be abstracted to be so much faster than any of the ships that
neither movement or piloting will help avoid hits.  I *know* that's not
really the case for either missiles or beams, but we are trying to make
this simple. <g>
  
>I move we use sensor rules like those in T4 (lock on required before
>you can even attemt to hit, defender can attempt to jam), but
>modified to reflect greater reliance on PC/NPC skill.

Hum, so you're saying...

Attack with Laser, Defense with Sandcaster

1.  Determine Range

2.  Attempt Weapons Lock vs Jam
(SensorSkill+SensorFactor+?Die?) vs (SensorSkill+JamFactor+?Die?)

If lock unsuccessful attack fails

3.  Attempt To Hit with Laser vs Sandcaster
(GunSkill+WeapnFactor+FireCntl) vs (RangeDice+?Skill?+DefenFactor)

If To Hit unsuccessful attack fails

4.  Determine Damage   ???we haven't talked about this yet???
 
Is that about it?

Anyway, this is as far as we've gotten, I think. 

Further discussion?

Eris
           
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:10:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Observations of an Industry....

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> So you see, IG isn't the only Game Company to treat its dedicated fans
> right; all the GOOD ones do.

Precisely right.  Not only that, but /good companies of all sorts/ keep 
in touch with their customers.  It is sad that this is so uncommon in 
every industry.  (Keeping in touch with your customers doesn't 
automatically make yours a good company...but its a great start.)

As an aside, Hero Games keeps in contact with its fans as well.  I've 
seen messages from them on rec.games.frp.super-heroes numerous times.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Aug 1996 23:04:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Precept 1

>The Twelve Precepts
>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>origin, is a protected being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.

Actually, no.  Imperial _citizenship_ is not automatic (see my earlier post).

Protection to a certain extent, yes.  Keeping in mind that waging wars is OK,
incredibly strict legal codes/punishments are OK, and so forth, I can't see
the Imperium being too concerned about what happens on-planet.

Now, I _can_ see the Imperium being _very_ concerned about what happens to
its _citizens_.  This is one of the side benefits of citizenship - locals are
safer deporting you than executing you.  This is also a good way to get loyal
soldiers: Joe Hick can sign up with the Marine recruiter, and after a 20-year
hitch in an auxiliary regiment he can return to Podunk with an Imperial
pension (payable in Imperial credits!) and some immunity to the local tyrant.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Aug 1996 23:18:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Simple Space Combat

I'm still waiting for my h/c T4, so I don't know what the official system is
like but here are my comments based on what I think you meant.

Simple is good.  I like your philosophy.  However, I want my space combats to
feel different from a dirtside firefight.  Call it a quirk.


Two missing items:

1) No sensors.  One of my favourite parts of BL/BR are the sensor rules. 
Whether you call it "sensor lock" or "target solution", I like the idea of
being able to run stealthy and quiet.  

To simplify sensors, for a small number of ships you can ignore communicator
rules and assume that what one knows all know.  Also, once a sensor lock has
been achieved you can assume it can be maintained, unless circumstances
drastically change (such as the pirate ducking behind an asteroid).

So, I would add a step for getting the first sensor lock.


2) Facing.  I like having different damage depending on facing.  Adds a lot
to the role-playing, too.

A simple way of handling this is to assume:

a) closing range (or pursuing retreating enemy): bow exposed
b) range same: broadside
c) opening range (or running from pursuit): stern exposed


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 20 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 334

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Alien Dieters
         2. Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2
         3. Re: Observations of an Industry....
         4. Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution
         5. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
         6. Re: Simple Space Combat
         7. Imperial Establishing Document and other things...
         8. Re: Imperial Proclamation
         9. T4:RSSC range question
        10. Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military
        11. Re: Establishing Document
        12. Re: Imperial Establishing Document and other things...
        13. Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military
        14. Re: Simple Space Combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:41:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Dieters

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:36:38 -0500 (CDT)
>
>Humans: the OTHER other white meat. 
>
>Story idea for any budding authors out there:  Aliens have already 
>secretly arrived in America, and have been feeding off of us for 
>decades.  By the 1950's, they had noticed that their mortality rates had 
>gotten much worse.  After doing exhaustive research, they discovered that 
>the cause was the high fat content of their American diet.  So, 
>they began taking over the fitness, fashion, and advertising industries 
>in order to get us to eat better and excercise more.  By the mid-70's, 
>their mortality rates were back in line.
>
>Next time you see an Ab Master or Butt Buster infomercial, or an 
>advertisement featuring one of those "waif" models, remember who is really 
>responsible for it and why they're doing it.
>

I always knew there was something funny about Richard Simmons!!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:04:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Uh? Have we agreed to *anything* yet? <g>  

Sure we have. :)  

> I don't think we have a system yet, but here's what I think we've agreed
> to:
> 
> General Principles...
[snipped]
> * I think we agree with this one.

They all sounded righ to me.

> I'm not sure how much of this we've agreed on, but here's what I *think*
> the system is...so far.
> 
> 1.  Initiative contest (Leadership+dice) vs (Leadership+dice)
> 
> We are going to use Tactics in movement, so let's just use
> Leadership for initiative, OK?  

Heh.  So we're back to my original (mis-typed) formula, eh?  Mebbe that 
means I think best when I don't think. :P  (I knew you were going 
to use tactics for movement. Yeah, that's the ticket! [G])


> Number of Dice:  1 is more simple, but 2 gives a bell curve which is more
> realistic..I think.  What do you think?

For initiative?  Well, it would depend on how much we want Leadership to 
affect the outcome.  I favor a single die.  But if you think Leadership 
should affect it less, then two dice is fine.  

I guess this would be as good a place as any to discuss our general 
theory of how important skills are going to be in relation to the random 
factor represented by the dice.  Heck, may as well discuss system quality 
vs. random factors and vs. skills as well.  Which is going to be the most 
important?  Which is going to be least important?


> 2.  Movement (Initiative loser goes first, winner goes second)
> 
> Ranges:  
> 
> Are we going to use them?  I vote yes..for now.  The ranges should be
> *extremely* abstract, if the players want to know that the boogie is
> "347212 klicks outbound", then they don't want RSSC, they want something
> BL-like.  If yes, then what ranges?  How do you feel about the ones I
> proposed?  (Out of Sensor Range, Out of Range, Long Range, Short Range,
> Contact) How about:  Undetected, Detected, Long, Short, Contact?

Let's use ranges (it makes it more interesting, I think, on 
balance (that is, the additional steps involved don't outweigh the play 
value added)).  Your first set of terms sounds better than the second, as 
using "detected" and "undetected" may prove confusing if we are to use 
sensors to locate ships.  

If, however, sensors are to be used merely to lock onto a ship to allow 
an attack to take place, then the second set may prove useful (although, 
technically, "Detected" would apply to the last three ranges as well - it 
is more of a binary concept than a gradation).

Alternatively, we could use T4's range system which includes Long, Medium, 
Short, and Very Short.  


> Movement:   A ship may try to change range by one band per turn.
>             A ship may attempt to EVADE, MAINTAIN, or CLOSE
>             
> The Contest:  Tactics (?or 1/2 Pilot?)  + MD6, Tie goes to
>                 Initiative holder
> 
> My reasoning is that the just using the MDrive rating plus skill devalues
> the hardware *too* much.  If we say the MDrive number is the number of D6's
> you roll then it works out better, IMO.  What do you think?

The system is intellectually appealing to me.  It is more playable than 
realistic, but that's what RSSC is all about. :)

Why 1/2 Pilot?  Why not just Pilot?  

I like the idea of skill playing large factor.   A person who is highly 
skilled should not be able to use a 1G ship to outmaneuver a lousy pilot 
with a 6G ship very often.  But it should be possible.

I really want to avoid getting too complicated, but here are two 
suggested formulae:

Pilot+Tactics+MD6

Pilot+MD6

Does either of those appeal?  I like the first best, but I worry that 
putting too many terms in the equation will bog the system down.


> BTW, I don't think MAINTAIN needs to be contested, so if both sides are
> content to maintain the current range the movement part is simply skipped. 
> Only if one side (or both) wants to change the range would you have to do
> anything with movement.

Makes sense to me.


> In your comments you said the Initiative part looks OK, but you didn't
> mention the movement.  How about that part?

Other than quibbles over the formula to be used, I like your idea a lot.


> 3.  Combat (Initiative winner goes first, loser goes second)
> 
> You suggest...
> 
> >As for weapons fire, we can go with the T4 task system (difficulty
> >based on range = # of dice to toss; target number based on some
> >formula involving gunnery skill, weapons quality, target's G rating,
> >attacker's fire control rating, target's pilot skill...more?), or
> >invent something else entirely.
> 
> [I *do* wish I had the book! <g>]
> 
> 1.  We should certainly use the numbers that are generated for the ship by
> the SSDS.

Agreed!

> 2.  We'd be better off *not* trying to invent something brand new if what
> we already have will work.  How complicated does T4 make it?

Not very.  T4 uses a target number derived from the target's size code.  
DM's include the target's G rating and attacker's fire control 
rating, with an optional DM for attacker's gunnery skill.  Difficulty 
(ie, the number of dice rolled) is determined by the range, thusly:

V. Short = Average (2D)
Short = Difficult (2.5D)
Medium = Formidable (3D)
Long = Staggering (3.5D)


If we are going to use opposed tasks as our basis, we will need to 
change this, of course.  Otherwise, I think the T4 system will work just 
fine, if we make gunnery skill a standard DM.


> Attacker's would add (Gunnery skill)+(Some Weapon Factor)+(Fire Control).

Hmm.  Difficult to come up with a weapon factor.  The factors listed next 
to weapons in the USP are damages at each range (very short, short, 
medium, long).  So, we really shouldn't use those.  They should be used 
for damage, as intended.


> >I move we use sensor rules like those in T4 (lock on required before
> >you can even attemt to hit, defender can attempt to jam), but
> >modified to reflect greater reliance on PC/NPC skill.
> 
> Hum, so you're saying...
[snipped]

Well, if we go with T4's method, it would be like this:

1.  Attacker tries to lock onto defender (roll for success, based on a 
table look-up based on sensor rating, sensor ops skill, ship size, and range)

2.  If successful, attacker fires at defender (roll for success, based on 
method explained above).

3.  If successful, defender may attempt to decrease damage by launching 
sandcasters.  Roll for success, based on:

Taget Number: 7+(range factor: 0,-1,-2, or -4, from V.Short to Long)
Once again, the difficulty rating is determined by range, using the same 
table as for attack rolls.

If successful, the damage is reduced by one point per successful 
sandcaster hit.


> Anyway, this is as far as we've gotten, I think. 
> 
> Further discussion?

Now that you have a better idea of the attack, defend, and sensor ops 
rules from T4, what do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 22:12:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Observations of an Industry....

On 08/19/96 at 06:15 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>I am also on the Harn-L list, and we've been witness to one of the oddest
>things I have seen in 20 years of gaming.  Columbia Games, the publishers
>of the Harn line, proudly unveiled their latest product: HarnMaster2. 
>This is the first Harn product in nearly two *years*.

>At the same time as the GenCon debut, the primary designer for Harn
>announced (via the list) that he was going to self-publish a "better"
>update of HarnMaster.

>Today we got a message from Columbia Games' president.  He explained in
>detail, in common language, and without pointing fingers at anyone, WHY
>Harn has such a slow release record.

>So you see, IG isn't the only Game Company to treat its dedicated fans
>right; all the GOOD ones do.

I've heard good things about Columbia Games and Harn too.

What I heard was that the author and the publisher weren't angry, didn't
have a falling out, and weren't really at odds.  As I heard it the author
didn't like some of the things in Harn2, and would provide his own update
on the net.  The publisher, it was reported to me, had no objections.  They
hoped the Harnites would buy Harn2 and download the alternate version and
then use either or both versions.  Is this a fair recount of what's going
on?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution

>From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)

>I am not an expert in poli-sci but I have noticed two themes in the discussion 
>about the proclamation that started the 3rd Imperium.  The first discussion is 
>about what declaration Cleon I made.  The second discussion is based on the 
>document that laid the foundation for laws (constitution).  I think there were 
>two documents.

I'm with JD on this.  Marc's call was for the establishing document ("1,000
words or less"); that's the declaration that says, as Les Howie put it, "I'm
the Emporer; do whatever you were doing before; but don't mess with trade."
More detail would appear in subsequent documents.  

There may not even be a formal constitution in a single document, but rather
a series of agreements among Emperor, nobles, and worlds, along with
proclamations and decrees, that give shape to the relationships among the
various parties.  Such development of a "constitutional canon" would allow
for varying interpretations of what these relationships should be, and would
reflect the give-and-take or tug-of-war aspect of forming an empire.  It
would also put the intrigue in right at the get-go, just where players and
referees like it.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

>From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>

>One thing that needs to be included is a paragraph establishing the Imperial
>Navy, Imperial Army, and Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  

1.  Why?  The forces already exist with different names.
2.  The establishment of specific governmental organizations doesn't need to
be in the founding document, which should just be a broad-brush overview.
The Emperor's power to establish and disband governmental organizations as
necessary and appropriate should be recognized.

>Imperial
>officers and enlisted men, like Imperial nobles, need to be given immunity
>from local laws.

I think that this is a bad idea from two perspectives.  First, it'll make
visiting Imperial military personnel appear more like occupying forces, even
when they're not (when they are actually an occupying force, they may not be
subject to local law, but that's mission-specific).  Second, it cuts many
interesting and playable story lines (although it probably creates others).  
 
>Also, drop the "We, Cleon ..."  From what I understand, this was adopted by
>royalty to show the unity of their will with that of the diety's.  

I think you're right on the background, but the royal we is such an old
Terran custom that the nobility, at least, would be expecting it (and it's
surely still in the holovids or whatever they watch).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:03:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Simple Space Combat

On 19 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> 1) No sensors.  One of my favourite parts of BL/BR are the sensor rules. 
> Whether you call it "sensor lock" or "target solution", I like the idea of
> being able to run stealthy and quiet.  
> 
> To simplify sensors, for a small number of ships you can ignore communicator
> rules and assume that what one knows all know.  Also, once a sensor lock has
> been achieved you can assume it can be maintained, unless circumstances
> drastically change (such as the pirate ducking behind an asteroid).
> 
> So, I would add a step for getting the first sensor lock.

We've come up with a system based on a skill vs. skill contest, with 
sensor quality and range thrown in.  Take a look at the posts from Monday 
evening and see what you think.

> 2) Facing.  I like having different damage depending on facing.  Adds a lot
> to the role-playing, too.
> 
> A simple way of handling this is to assume:
> 
> a) closing range (or pursuing retreating enemy): bow exposed
> b) range same: broadside
> c) opening range (or running from pursuit): stern exposed

Hmm.  Interesting.  If facing affects damage, and if the damage done is 
the value given next to the weapon on the USP (ie, it might be Laser 
2,1,1,0, which would mean that at Very Short range it would do 2 points, 
at Short range 1 point, at Medium range 1 point, and at Long range it 
would do no damage), what method would you suggest be used to 
increase/decrease that damage based on facing?  (ie, bow = normal 
damage, broadside= 2x damage, etc?)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:46:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Imperial Establishing Document and other things...

First, on the much-discussed founding document...

I don't think I can compete with all the very elaborate
documents that have been proposed, but a couple comments:

The document is primarily a marketing document, as some people
have mentioned. It outlines what's going on, why and it
provides a basis of legitimacy. It should not specify detail,
so things like "a planet and its space out to 100 diameters"
are way to detailed. It should be something like this:

I am the Emperor.

I have plenty of reasons to be Emperor.
One of these is the Moot which I've reconvened.

The Sylean Federation is now the Restored Empire.

All sentient residents of Imerial space are Imperial
Citizens.

(Adding 'residents' fixes that Zhodani tour group problem :)

Don't impede Free Trade.

I have ultimate authority and all Imperial Bodies
act through my decree.

The details will be specified later, in much bigger
documents which won't be on the front page of the
news but will be sent to all worlds and nobles in no
uncertain terms. Much of Imperial law probably extends
from Sylean law, so in the short term, it's a minor change.

Also, on robots:

I don't think sentient AIs existed in Year 0... my copy
of Robots is packed pending a move to Toronto, but when
were the Shudsusham (sp??) concords held... ?

I doubt that the Sylean federation had enough economic
or technological might to have a lot of robots in Year 0...

Ethan

PS. ANyone interested in playing in Toronto come the fall?
I'll be pretty central, close to U of T and the subway...

Ethan

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 14:33 +0100
Subject: Re: Imperial Proclamation

I preceive a tendency to think that Cleon was all powerful because he was an 
emporer.  I have gone back and did some quick research on emporers.  I found 
most emporers, kings, dictators, or whatever else you want to call them are 
rarely all powerful.  A couple of examples: King John I of England had to sign 
the Magna Carta; King Edward III of England initially contended with his 
barons;  Hugh Capet, first king of France was elected by the other nobles.  I 
know what you are thinking, they weren't emperors.  Well, how about Napoleon?  
He didn't have nobility to worry about (French revolution took care of that), 
but it took several years for even him to consolidate power.  Even when he had 
conquered Europe, he had to worry about the politicians in Paris.  Hitler is 
another example, though not an emperor, he ended up being all powerful in the 
Third Reich.  It took years for him to raise to power.  During the period he had 
to play off rivals (or kill them) and foreign governments.

It is great to say the emperor will do this or do that.  In reality, it takes 
years, sometimes generations to solidify a dynasty.  The Pharoahs of Eqypt 
became "all powerful" in Eqypt, but not initially.  I am not an expert in 
eastern history, so I cannot talk about the Emperors of China nor Japan.  
However, I would venture to guess that it was similar to their western 
counterparts.

Why would you think that Cleon would be any different?  In fact, why would you 
want him to be?  Glenn Goffin said it best when he said the rivalry between the 
Emperor and the nobles is just how the players and referees would want it.  
Think about the adventure plot lines that a rivalry brings out. 

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: "Garriss J Civ ACC/DR(MITRE)" <garrisj@ns.langley.af.mil>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 09:22:00 +6
Subject: T4:RSSC range question

>Ranges...

>There are 5 abstract ranges:  Out of Contact, Out of Range, Long Range,
>Short Range and Contact.

>Out of Contact  - beyond sensor range, unsighted
>Out of Range    - sighted but out of weapons range
>Long Range      - Long range weapons may fire
>Short Range     - Long and short range weapons may fire
>Contact         - Ships are in contact for boarding, no weapon fire

>A ship may attempt to move from any range to any adjacent range during a
>combat turn: Short to Contact, Long to Out of Range, etc.

If two ships are currently at Short Range, can one ship attempt to close   
to Contact range (for the purpose of boarding) while the other still has   
a functional Manuever Drive?

I could possible believe this if we are talking about two very large   
cruisers, who rely more heavily upon firepower than agility.  But if this   
combat taking place between two smaller ships (like a pair of Millenium   
Falcon-type ships), I don't really see one being able to board the other   
until they disable their opponent's Maneuver Drives.  And at that point,   
I don't see how the boardee could prevent the other from boarding.

Someone care to clarify?

James Garriss
garrisj@hqaccdr.langley.af.mil  

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MX#:B(@/Y`9!L:U,C!N`CH5RR9L';0[`+8'(IT04`=00`!)#^<R1P9`!*D!;0
M7@$$8"'AV2'`878#$$.P=4KF-O`G-L!B4@.186<#$&ET>GD=T4(CH6HA:=-6
MEF'_:O,+45)`+V%<L`GA7*0`P-=E,&322&,H:7!K(?%BH#<+<`7`(]%-92$)
M\&EUK5#01@=`22$M<"!P7Y2L<RDD<&A`9`(@)R+A_S;093!#L!'P8Q%?@2]P
M:P3_9#)*D$GC9%DPP&418F)#L-U*('-XQ"'`=+)P-O%24>8G#]$`<&5U9L<=
MH!W@_D$J$5;2$<`%0#;P"X`D8?]V]G?B*5`'X&)R2>-W\6AE?Q;04'!2861H
M4*-)YBJ]4_T#<&5?<E\P:I)@D@K`!I#2>6==2F$'@D<*P`40"P006B5GAJ-J
M0&AQX0#08V1R+AG29#!P,'!A9BYM`Q!:)17Q``&*`````P`0$`$````#`!$0
M`````$``!S#@>(#,FHZ[`4``"##@>(#,FHZ[`1X`/0`!`````0`````````#
)``TT_3<``'&Q
`
end

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 14:51 +0100
Subject: Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military

The military doesn't and shouldn't have blanket immunity to local laws.  Today 
the US military has "Status of Forces Agreements" or SOFAs with all countries in 
which US servicemenbers serve.  The agreements are negoitated seperately and are 
different for each country.  The SOFA include the rights of servicemembers while 
living in the country.  It covers legal, economics(taxes) and travel (passport) 
and many other things.  Lawyers have haydays working out SOFAs for the military.

The immunity of Imperium military would not be spelled out in an establishing 
document.  The legal status of Imperium military come from either SOFAs or from 
them living on military kaserns that have extra-territorial staus, like 
foreign embassies.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:56:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Establishing Document

On 19 Aug 96 at 21:22, Nicholas Law spewed:

> But the power of the Moot to reject an heir to the Iridium Throne 
> should not be taken lightly. For a hereditary monarch there's 

Actually it should...  The Moot NEVER denied the succession of a 
legitimate heir to the throne.  Cleon II abdicated, a few years 
after ascending the throne, and a couple of Emperors abdicated in 
later years...  The few times that it stepped in were all in cases 
where there was not a direct descendant, and there was more than 1 
candidate for succession.  Even then, it was often unsuccessful in 
advancing a particular claimant to the throne.  The Moot was pretty 
much a worthless debating society.  Some of its members would be 
powerful in their own right (particularly the Archdukes).  The Moot 
might be more powerful in the early years, but even then, it didn't 
exercise its powers a whole lot...

Stu


> nothing so important than leaving your Imperium to your offspring. 
> The fact that the Moot can, out of pique, deny your pride and joy, 
> and give the throne instead to that third cousin you always hated 
> means that you have to worry about keeping the nobles happy.The 
> high nobility are powerful men and women. And, continuing in a 
> family vein, remember who runs the Navy? The high nobles sit in 
> the moot; their younger brothers and sisters sit on the bridges of 
> battleships. Remember what Archduke Norris was before his brother 
> died..
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:02:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document and other things...

On 20 Aug 96 at 8:46, Ethan Henry spewed:

> I don't think sentient AIs existed in Year 0... my copy
> of Robots is packed pending a move to Toronto, but when
> were the Shudsusham (sp??) concords held... ?

No, they wouldn't have.  Not at TL 12 Maximum, anyways...

The Shadusham Accords occurred during the Sylean Federation, so they 
were before the Coronation of Cleon I, anyways...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:18:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, J D Burdick wrote:

> The military doesn't and shouldn't have blanket immunity to local laws.  Today 
> the US military has "Status of Forces Agreements" or SOFAs with all countries in 
> which US servicemenbers serve.  The agreements are negoitated seperately and are 
> different for each country.  The SOFA include the rights of servicemembers while 
> living in the country.  It covers legal, economics(taxes) and travel (passport) 
> and many other things.  Lawyers have haydays working out SOFAs for the military.
> 
> The immunity of Imperium military would not be spelled out in an establishing 
> document.  The legal status of Imperium military come from either SOFAs or from 
> them living on military kaserns that have extra-territorial staus, like 
> foreign embassies.



Sure it would. It is an Empire, not a representative democracy.  Apples
and oranges.  Imperial liabilities and immunities would be carved
somewhere on some rock.



> 
> JD
> Twolf
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:56:44 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Simple Space Combat

Moin Rob Prior,

	to cite just two sentence :

	    " One of my favourite parts of BL/BR are the sensor rules. "

	and " Adds a lot to the role-playing, too. "

	There are two kinds of space dog fight, conflict simulation
	and role playing. And as a game master I need both. Of course
	I need role playing more often.

	My role playing space combat system is as simplified as the
	players want it !

	The main difference between both: As a refree, I'm in charge
	not the rules are in charge. Its not sense of the rules to
	make the game, but my imagination has to make the game, the
	rules can give me clues.

	So here comes my simplyfied rules :

	- alway leave the players incertain, if the what the sensors
	  show, is whats realy around.
	- look at the clock, remember most wepons fire all 3 minutes,
	  this makes interaction between players straigt, and force
	  the fealing of a dog fight.
	- make a hard time, but dont kill them.

	BL/BR: I need these rules sometimes for roleplaying games :

	Some month ago the players where on board of mother (a Midu-Aga)
	not to solve the Vampire Fleet scenario but to invite a second
	game master, and we played for a bottle of uyskee if he can kill
	them. Of I've told the players that, there is a bottle, and that
	they have to be quite, so he did'nt know on what ship of the
	fleet the players are.

	The role playing aspect of this amasing hour was, that the players
	feel hopeless, and that they will do all to get from board as
	soon as posible.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #334
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 20 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 335

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Current List Problems
         2. QSDS Available in More Formats
         3. QSDS Available in More Formats
         4. RE: Immunity for Imperium Military
         5. New Traveller Site (with trade rules)
         6. Protected Beings?
         7. Nuke Prohibition
         8. RE: Immunity for Imperium Military
         9. Re: Nuke Prohibition
        10. Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military
        11. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        12. FFS&BL weapon questions
        13. Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)
        14. T4 availability
        15. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document
        16. Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:35:52 -0400
Subject: Current List Problems

Just a little bit of info for ya...

First, the list has run on ns.mpgn.com ever since we switched to majordomo a
while back.  The weekend of the 11th of August (I think) we lost ns to a cpu
failure.  This was a DecStation 5000 running Ultrix 4.4.  To get our name
server (which was the key role of this machine) back on line, I grabbed the
one machine I had avaialble, which was a Dec Alpha running OSF 1.3.  I
copied all the majordomo stuff from the drives on the 5000 to the Alpha and
brought the list back up.  Now that history is past us:

The messages coming from ns.mpgn.com instead of mpgn.com are probably some
sendmail configuation difference between the two machines.  I will try to
get this fixed in the near future, but it is a pretty low priority.

The Mime-headers seem to have gone away.  Personally I like this.  I use Elm
from home and it doesn't like Mime-messages very well.  Any reason to go
back to them?

I have gotten a lot of returned mail, but they all seem to be ligitamate
bounces, mail boxes full, user unknown, etc.  I just went through most of
TML and removed the bounces I have been getting.  I will try to get to Xboat
later today.

As far as the anonymous remailer bounces you are seeing, can someone forward
me a copy and I will try to track down the source of the bounce. (a
difficult task no doubt)

Any way, I would like to appoligize for the recent problems.  Its not my
fault that that 5000 had to go conk out on me :-)

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 12:40:35 -0400
Subject: QSDS Available in More Formats

Just a quick note to let everyone know: I've put up additional file
formats on my Web site (http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/) so that
non-MSWord folks can now get QSDS 1.4.  The document is now available
in HTML, ASCII text, DCA-RFT, plus Microsoft Word 6 and Word 2 formats.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 12:40:35 -0400
Subject: QSDS Available in More Formats

Just a quick note to let everyone know: I've put up additional file
formats on my Web site (http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/) so that
non-MSWord folks can now get QSDS 1.4.  The document is now available
in HTML, ASCII text, DCA-RFT, plus Microsoft Word 6 and Word 2 formats.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 20:00 +0100
Subject: RE: Immunity for Imperium Military

On 20 August, I wrote:
<snip>
> The immunity of Imperium military would not be spelled out in an establishing 
> document.  The legal status of Imperium military come from either SOFAs or 
from 
> them living on military kaserns that have extra-territorial staus, like 
> foreign embassies.

Tom's reply:

Sure it would. It is an Empire, not a representative democracy.  Apples
and oranges.  Imperial liabilities and immunities would be carved
somewhere on some rock.

My response:

If the Empire was an occupation force you're right.  I can think of several 
examples; Germany and Japan WWII,  Stalinist Russia, U.S. during 1800's Indian 
Wars, and Ghengis Kahn.  If the Empire wants worlds to be active participants in 
the Empire as full member worlds you're wrong.  The Empire must allow the worlds 
to exercise their own legal systems.  Napoleon did this during the Napoleonic 
Wars, 1800-1815, when he set up the client states (Kingdom of Italy, 
Confederation of the Rhine, etc.).  The client states had their own laws (yes, I 
know they were very similar to the French laws, just as many worlds will 
mirror Imperium law).  French soldiers breaking laws in Italy *could* face 
Italian law.  It happened twice that I know: an assassin who tried to kill Murat 
(King of Naples) and a French soldier caught stealing Prince Eugene's (King of 
Italy) horse.

The only hard exception were the following: The Emperor, the Royal Family, Royal 
Aides de Camp, Marshalls of the Empire.  Did the military take care of most of 
the punishment of soldiers?  Yes!  The military had (has) stricter rules and 
stiffer penalties.

Be careful not to make the Imperium into the evil empire of Star Wars.  In war 
zone and areas under martial law, the military answers to itself.  In other 
areas it is a different matter.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Aug 1996 14:10:59 GMT
Subject: New Traveller Site (with trade rules)

I've just uploaded and verified my school's Traveller site.  At the moment it
is very sketchy, just an intro page and my trade rules.  More information
will follow as my students get a chance to work on it during the year.

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:46:03 -0800
Subject: Protected Beings?

I will admit to a IY 1000-1115 view of cleon's statement of "Protected Status".

However, if the interpretation of that era was that he granted some kind of
quasi-citizenship, which was actually granted later, then just what did he
mean?

Literally, the were protected beings: Protected from murder, travel
restrictions exclusive of on planet restrictions, Protected from extra
imperial threat. They would also be protected from local seizure of
non-local properties, ie: due processa and treaty to sieze any assets by a
local (world) government when said assets aren't there.

just a historical view...

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:59:34 -0800
Subject: Nuke Prohibition

>
>(1) That would result in a virtually unarmed (except for the Imperial
>military) interstellar civilization, which is contrary to the
>ever-popular 'canon'.  The standard ship's missile is a nuclear weapon,
>if we're still using FF&S technology (which I believe we are...).

Well, FF&S contradicts some 15 years of prior cannon... Special Supplement
_: Missiles (Either #2 or #3) clearly delineates missile types, and nukes
are NOT the standard... previous cannon seems to have been flechette
warheads or BB warheads, ala the US Sidewinder... get close and pepper him
with shrapnel. Not having designed these for FF&S, I don't know how
feasable they really are, but they are cannonical, as Missiles says that
the warheads are not normally direct impact missiles (which did more damage
than normal missiles). I Have designed many missiles using SS_:Missiles.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:43:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Immunity for Imperium Military

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, J D Burdick wrote:

> On 20 August, I wrote:
> <snip>
> > The immunity of Imperium military would not be spelled out in an establishing 
> > document.  The legal status of Imperium military come from either SOFAs or 
> from 
> > them living on military kaserns that have extra-territorial staus, like 
> > foreign embassies.
> 
> Tom's reply:
> 
> Sure it would. It is an Empire, not a representative democracy.  Apples
> and oranges.  Imperial liabilities and immunities would be carved
> somewhere on some rock.
> 
> My response:
> 
> If the Empire was an occupation force you're right.  I can think of several 
> examples; Germany and Japan WWII,  Stalinist Russia, U.S. during 1800's Indian 
> Wars, and Ghengis Kahn.  If the Empire wants worlds to be active participants in 
> the Empire as full member worlds you're wrong.  The Empire must allow the worlds 
> to exercise their own legal systems.  Napoleon did this during the Napoleonic 
> Wars, 1800-1815, when he set up the client states (Kingdom of Italy, 
> Confederation of the Rhine, etc.).  The client states had their own laws (yes, I 
> know they were very similar to the French laws, just as many worlds will 
> mirror Imperium law).  French soldiers breaking laws in Italy *could* face 
> Italian law.  It happened twice that I know: an assassin who tried to kill Murat 
> (King of Naples) and a French soldier caught stealing Prince Eugene's (King of 
> Italy) horse.


I still believe firmly that the Imperium's military would not answer to
local authorities UNLESS the local military commander decreed it so.  This
means that they are *not* automatically bound by local laws, and probably
(as you point out below) would *rather* face local laws than (often harsh)
military justice.



> 
> The only hard exception were the following: The Emperor, the Royal Family, Royal 
> Aides de Camp, Marshalls of the Empire.  Did the military take care of most of 
> the punishment of soldiers?  Yes!  The military had (has) stricter rules and 
> stiffer penalties.
> 
> Be careful not to make the Imperium into the evil empire of Star Wars.  In war 
> zone and areas under martial law, the military answers to itself.  In other 
> areas it is a different matter.
> 






We will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Neither of use are talking
about absolutes, but I do disagree that there would ever be a case where
local law automatically applied to Imperial military units (on duty that
is).


Tom


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:58:39 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Nuke Prohibition

 
> >(1) That would result in a virtually unarmed (except for the Imperial
> >military) interstellar civilization, which is contrary to the
> >ever-popular 'canon'.  The standard ship's missile is a nuclear weapon,
> >if we're still using FF&S technology (which I believe we are...).

This is the case for TNE/FFS.  There has been a lot of work on
non-nuke missiles but the problem is that at typical traveller
velocities kinetic energy is nastier than most nukes (and all other
explosives).

Not to drag out rock throwing again (well, only a little :-) but I
think that the Rules of War sghould be written much more broadly
than an anti-nuke prohibition.

Along the lines of "Use of weapons of mass/indescriminate
destruction are prohibited."  Thgis would cover nukes, "rocks",
chemical, an biological weapons used against population centers, and
all but rocks vs. military targets (rocks being Ortilery since KE
far exceeds explosive force for any orbital attacks).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:16:43 -0800
Subject: Re:  Immunity for Imperium Military

On 20 Aug 96 at 10:18, Tom Ellis spewed:

> Sure it would. It is an Empire, not a representative democracy.  Apples
> and oranges.  Imperial liabilities and immunities would be carved
> somewhere on some rock.

Yeah, but you gotta think that the Imperium is going to deal with its 
own renegades...  

There should be no mention of immunity for anybody but Cleon I in a 
founding proclamation though.  The Imperium, as someone else said, is 
not going to conquer known space by tying both hands behind its 
back...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 22:22 BST-1
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

In-Reply-To: <9608201533.AA15094@NS.MPGN.COM>

Sam Draper said:
 
> >One thing that needs to be included is a paragraph establishing
>> the Imperial Navy, Imperial Army, and Imperial Interstellar
>> Scout Service.  

and Glenn M. Goffin responded:

> 1.  Why?  The forces already exist with different names.

Yes, it would probably be a case of just changing a few insignias 
of the Sylean Federation military, with the battleship 
'Federation' being renamed battleship 'Cleon'. Though one of the 
first things the Empreror would declare would be that he was  
Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the Imperium -- with 
some nice titles to go with it, like Grand High Admiral of the 
Massed Fleets, or similar.


Ethan Henry asked:

> my copy of Robots is packed pending a 
>move to Toronto, but when
>were the Shudsusham (sp??) concords held... ?

This was in -110, and Book 8, in a rare comment on constitutional 
issues notes:

'The Concords lost their legal force when Cleon declared himself 
emperor of the Third Imperium in Year 0'


Nick


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:34:54 +0000 ()
Subject: FFS&BL weapon questions

Hy folks,

	while reading FFS and BL some questions arise :

	- why doesnt a TL 13+ starship have non tuneable X-Ray 
	  lasers, a TL 13 X-Ray laser only needs a diameter of
	  40 cm to have optimum. (shortrange 1 seconds, and no
	  loss at extrem range of 8 seconds) so a 150 Mj X-Ray
	  laser would be as good as the tl15 turret.

	  you can even use non gravitic focusing to use the better
	  energy efficiency. e.g.

		Tech-Level      :  13
		Discharge       : 900.0 Mj
		Diameter        :   3.6 m
		Short Range     :   6.0 clicks
		Wavelength      :   1   anstroem EXR
		Effective Range :  12.0 clicks
		Power Input     :   3.2 MW
		HPG   Volume    :  26.3 m3
		Focal Volume    :   9.2 m3
		BeamP Volume    :   6.0 m3
		Displacement    :   3.0 dt
		Mass            :  67.8 t
		Damage          : 6:1/24-75 12:1/24-75 24:1/12-38 48:1/6-19 

	- Why do ships have particle accelerators and meson guns ?
	  Even the small tl15 accelerator displaces 87 tons, enough
	  to have a devasting laser batterie. Meson guns have a very
	  short range, and a meson screen is cheap.

	- The stats for Meson&Paricle Guns seam to be completely
	  wrong when I recalulate them with FFS. e.g. :

	  - the tl12 1000 Mj PA has bore of 3.6 m and a length of
	    144m so it should have more than 1400m3 volume, but in
	    BL there is only 792m3 ?

	  - the tl15 2000 Mj PA hase a bore of 5m and a length of
	    42m so the effective range should be 11 seconds, why
	    is there a decrease at 8 seconds in BL ?

	- In BL : the TL 15 Rampart fighter with a good laser
	  and 4 missiles is very effective, why isnt there any
	  (small) fighter carrier. A 400dt ship can easy transport
	  a dozend of them, or half a dozend if the hangar is
	  suiteable for repair, and would make a suprising "micro
	  battle rider carrier".

By Michael

PS : The scripts calculating these values where posted some days
     ago, when I completed them, I'll upload them to a ftp server.
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Wesley.Esser@haledorr.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:43:35 -0400
Subject: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)

- -----------------

J D Burdick wrote -
>Subject: Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution
>
>I am not an expert in poli-sci but I have noticed two themes in the discussion 
>about the proclamation that started the 3rd Imperium.  The first discussion is 
>about what declaration Cleon I made.  The second discussion is based on the 
>document that laid the foundation for laws (constitution).  I think there were 
>two documents.

At least two documents..  I always figured that the laws of the Imperium were
more like English Common Law than American Constitutional Law, in that certain 
things are so "because they have always been that way".  This would go a long
way to explain the hodge-podge of odd government types and seemingly incongruous
institutions that make up the Imperium.

>I would propose that both discussions are correct.  Cleon I did make an initial 
>declaration (proclamation) where he stated in very grand terms the need for a 
>change and a return to past glories.  In the proclamation he probably stated 
>that "he and the nobles" declared the return to the past glory of the Imperiums 
>by establishing the Third Imperium.  When he issued the initial proclamation his 
>power base was still limited. If it wasn't, why have the Moot. I believe that 
>Cleon I included the Moot to appease the nobles while he solidified his power 
>base.  

Precisely - the higher ranking lords of the Sylean Federation agreed to support
Cleon in pressing his claim to the Imperial throne, and he in return agreed
to confirm them in their traditional titles and priveleges.

>The proclamation may have been issued in Year 0 or before.

I would say it was issued in what became year 0, but which had a Solomani
style date before.  A year or two later, a new Imperial dating system was
introduced which retroactively (by a year or two) set year 0 as the 
date of Cleon's assumption of the Imperial title.

>The constitution came after the proclamation.  It laid the foundation for the 
>laws.  Since it came later, Cleon had had time to consolidate his power but like 
>many kings and emperors throughout history, it still wasn't initially absolute. 
>However, since he had a stronger power base, the constitution would be more 
>directive and authoritarian.  Since his power was still not absolute, the Moot 
>is still included but with relatively no powers.  The constitution could have 
>been issued in Year 0 or a few years later after Cleon had a chance to increase 
>his power.

I don't really see there ever being a Constitution as such - more a series of
compromises with various factions that established certain precedents for 
interstellar relations.  For example, Noble A brings Noble B appeals to the 
Imperial Court over Noble B's imposition of heavy tariffs on goods from 
Noble A's planet.  Cleon hears the case and says, essentially, that tradition
and the will of the Emporer state that only the Empire has the right to tax
interstellar trade.  In another example, a planet which has a no native 
aristocracy receives a noble as the Imperial Legate.  While there, the Imperial 
legate, with the help of a group of local pro-aristocrats, (and with Cleon's
secret agreement) attempts a coup. The original government appeals to Cleon 
based on their traditional right to self-determination, a right which dates to
the 1st Imperium and has been respected by every intervening Emporer.  Faced
with this weighty tradition, Cleon orders the Imperial Legate and his TL 12 
Battle-Dress equipped personal retinue recalled to Sylea.  Imperial will is 
thwarted by tradition.

>By seperating the two documents, I think we enrich Imperium history and weave 
>political intrigue into the beginnings of the Third Imperium.

Exactly my point.  The give and take of establishing rights and precedents is
creates an environment rich in gaming opportunities.

And Nicholas Law wrote..

>To summarise:

>Who drafts the Constitution? The Emperor
>Who amends the Constitution? The Emperor
>Who passes legislation? The Emperor
>Who decides if a law is constitutional? The Emperor

Exactly the problem with the Constitutional approach.

>So what can the Emperor do? You would think pretty much whatever 
>he likes. There is, after all, no Supreme Court to keep the 
>Constitution clean of the grubby pawprints of politicians. 

Except that tradition forces him to accept certain limitations - and 
Cleon is VERY cautious with respect to tradition, since tradition
is the very basis of his claim to the title

>But the power of the Moot to reject an heir to the Iridium Throne 
>should not be taken lightly...(stuff clipped). 

That would also be the chance for the Moot to reclaim powers that waned
under the waxing power of he previous Emporer.

The change from a Federal form of government to a Monarchial government is a
pretty drastic change, especially when you consider that the Emporer is closer
to a Louis XIV style monarch than a Queen Victoria.  I always figured that 
the 2nd Imperium used the Roman and Alexandrian Empires as models: Like Caesar,
Estigibarra (sp) was never officially crowned Emporer, but he was the start 
of the dynasty.  Like Alexander, Estigibarra assumed the Imperial role to 
better rule the subject states - there are more likenesses.  The foundation 
of the 3rd Imperium is more along the lines of the Charlemagne's assumption of
the Imperial title - it came after a "dark ages", the title had lapsed, etc., so
I modeled Cleon's 'aclammatio' after Charlemagne's.  In Cleon's case, the 
Moot plays the part of the Pope, and by giving legitimacy to Cleon's claim, claim
the right to control the Imperial title.

I don't see how a written Imperial constitution would come into being after the 
Long Night.  The Imperial title had lapsed, and the worlds of Core were joined 
in a federation which presumeably had some type of central representative
authority, and in which the central government was more powerful than the 
individual member governments.  To move directly to an Imperial form of 
government, and one that gave the individual worlds a great deal of autonomy, 
means that the existing Federation government was willing to essentially disolve
itself in favor of Cleon - which seems unlikely to me.  The only way I can see 
an Imperial constitution developing would be as the result of conflict between 
two equally powerful foes. Given the decription of Cleon's aggressive
consolidation of power, I can't see him getting as far as being made Emporer and
then saying, "Ok, now I will limit my powers like mad with a written document".
If the powers will still that equal, I can't imagine either side would see the
fight as over.

So here we have Lord Cleon of Sylea, a prominent noble on Sylea, a wealthy 
industrialist in his own right, leading a traditionalist faction in the 
Federation Moot.  This faction presses for a return to the old Imperial 
government (the good old days), and gathers support among the local nobles
who's local autonomy is being squeezed by the ever-centralizing Federation.
Cleon is a prominent figure in the Federation government, having led the 
consolidation of Core.  His wealth and patronage are very persuasive, and his
industrial holdings can sway planetary economies.  In short, he can build a 
group of disparate supporters who will back him.  Cleon waits for some sort
of government crisis - perhaps an attempted rebellion by a Federation world, 
or perhaps he even manufactures it.  The factionalized Federation government 
is not able to deal with the crisis.  Cleon steps in, solves the problem, and
returns to Sylea where he is "spontaneously" acclaimed Emporer by his supporters
in the moot.  Promises are exchanged, and Cleon assumes the Iridium Throne.

This puts us at year 0 - in a situation pregnant with possibility.  People will 
be seeing conspiracy around every corner: Federalist on Shudusham are planning
a revolt; Imperial Guards are arresting Federal sympathizers; factions in the 
Moot are planning to depose Cleon - the possibilities are endless.  And what
about the newly conquered worlds of Core.  Do they all REALLY get to keep their
own governments?  What about the worlds that Cleon captured and occupied?
Can he enfeoff his a Marquis or a Count with a whole world?  What about the 
democracy's that are part of the new territories?  Will Cleon confirm their
independent rights (like Frederick I with the Italian city-states) or will 
he attempt to place a noble in charge?

It just seems to me that if you want a setting with room to adventure, don't 
give it a nice new constitution that spells out everyone's roles.  Give them 
a loose framework and plenty of rope to hang themselves.

Let them fight for a constitution to limit Cleon-don't just hand it to them.

My .02cr...(and who says that a credit doesn't go far anymore!)

Wes Esser
wesley.esser@haledorr.com

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 20:04:44 -0400
Subject: T4 availability

Does anybody know when Imperium Games will (or did, as the case may well
be...) mail the hardbound T4 to those of use who pre-ordered copies?  I've
seen a bit of traffic on this list from those who got copies at GenCon and I
can't stand the wait! - Bill

------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:27:14 +0000
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

At 06:26 AM 8/20/96 +0000, sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:

>>One thing that needs to be included is a paragraph establishing the Imperial
>>Navy, Imperial Army, and Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  
>
>1.  Why?  The forces already exist with different names.

Four reasons:
1. Its a good place to give their new names.
2. It is a veiled threat against internal and external enemies.
3. Although we like to think the military is not part of the political
process, that is not the case in most governments.  Especially autocracies.
I think Cleon would want to be very particular about who controls the navy.
4. It seems proper to mention the most important instrument of Imperial
power.  There would be no empire without the navy.  Can it really be ignored
in the founding document?  Kings, Tsars, Kaisers and the like were always
prancing around in uniforms because they knew, just as Mao did, where power
comes from.

>2.  The establishment of specific governmental organizations doesn't need to
>be in the founding document, which should just be a broad-brush overview.

I generally agree about the broad brush, but think we should try to provide
as much useful information as possible for roleplayers and their referees.
A few nuts and bolts (Who is a citizen?  What are Imperial crimes?) along
with some vague guidelines (free trade; autonomy of member worlds), allowing
referees a great deal of discretion but providing some canonical guidance,
would be most helpful for playing the game.

>>Imperial
>>officers and enlisted men, like Imperial nobles, need to be given immunity
>>from local laws.
>
>I think that this is a bad idea from two perspectives.  First, it'll make
>visiting Imperial military personnel appear more like occupying forces, even

My proposal was a little broad.  Amend it to read:  Imperial Justice shall
have exclusive jurisdiction over all legal actions against Imperial officers.

You obey those who have power over you.  If officers are subject to local
courts and therefore politicos, they may have divided loyalties.  The reason
for giving nobles access to Imperial Justice also applies to military
officers.  It assures their complete loyalty, and that would be everything
to our aspiring autocrat.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:32:02 -0600
Subject: Re: The Imperial Establishing Document

At 10:02 pm 8/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>The Twelve Precepts
>>1.  Any sentient life form within the Imperial Borders, regardless of its 
>>origin, is a protected
>>being, and thus a citizen of the Imperium.
>
>This is canon.  I take "protected" to mean only protected from enemies
>external to the Imperium, however, and not to mean protected by civil
>rights.  Otherwise, the Imperium gets inextricably enmeshed in local
governance.

        Actually, it's canon that it WASN'T in the original charter, as a
later Emperor decreed it.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #335
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 21 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 336

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Am I guessing right?
         2. Re: T4:RSSC range question
         3. BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)
         4. BARD: Helios - History/Culture (LONG)
         5. BARD: Helios - WTH & Ext Sys Data (LONG)
         6. Re: Re: Simple Space Combat
         7. Imperial Citizenship (again) & the Moot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:32:04 -0600
Subject: Re: Am I guessing right?

At 11:48 pm 8/18/96 +0900, you wrote:
>I ordered a hardcover, so I haven't seen anything official yet (but I'm 
>hoping that "still at the printers" = errors being corrected), but I think 
>I've noticed a minor problem just from reading what others post about jump 
>fuel in T4.
>
>Thruster ships will need lots of jump fuel to offset the advantage of not 
>needing lots of maneuver fuel (required by HEPlaR).
>
>There will still be HEPlaR ships in the game (lower TL).
>
>These ships will be high enough TL to have jump drives (my assumption - 
>could be wrong).
>
>This means that HEPlaR ships with jump drives will be almost all fuel.
>
>Is this correct?

        Well, you can use your fuel either for the jump drives or for the
HEPlaR. In normal operations (i.e. not running away from anybody) you
shouldn't use all that much maneuver fuel -- a few g-turns to leisurely
coast out to 100 diameters, jump, then move in from 100 diameters. Use CG
for landings, etc.
        'Course, if you're running ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 21:58:25 -0500
Subject: Re: T4:RSSC range question

On 08/20/96 at 09:15 AM,  traveller@MPGN.COM said:

>If two ships are currently at Short Range, can one ship attempt to close  
> to Contact range (for the purpose of boarding) while the other still has  
> a functional Manuever Drive?

I see your point.  I'd say yes, they ship can close to Contact range. 
OTOH, maybe boarding shouldn't be allowed until you disable the other
ship's MDrive.  I guess they would pound on each other until one was able
to break off, or one had their drive knocked out.

Now, for a totally different take on this!  <g> None of us know how the
Thrusters really work, right?  So maybe when one Thruster field gets close
enough to another they can be locked together allowing for boarding.  That
kind of effect has been used often enough in SF literature. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:26:07 -0500
Subject: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)

Well, after many months of work here is the first BARD paper.  I'm hoping to
get it on my web page this weekend.  This paper is the result of the work of
Lewis Roberts and John Muir Macpherson with a little help from me.  I really
appreciate all of the energy and creative effort these guys put forth.
Without their help, this paper wouldn't exist!  Thanks to Lewis and Muir,
you guys are great!

BTW, I've split the paper into three parts because it is so long.  This is
the physical information section, next I'll post the history/cultural
section, and last I'll post the World Tamer's Handbook Data that we developed.

Well, I've blathered long enough, here's the goods.

        *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *       *

                               Helios

                         UPP:    E648243-4
Size:   Large (D=9600km)             Atmosphere:  Thin Tainted
Hydro:  80%                          Population:  700
Gov:    Representative Democracy     Law Level:   Low
Tech:   4 (Circa 1900)               Starport:    Frontier
 
PHYSICAL APPEARANCE:

Helios consists of one major continent and four smaller ones.  In addition,
there are a number of major islands and a few archipelagoes.  The Main
community of Helios is located on a small island in the southern hemisphere
in the temperate zone.

Weather:
Because of its location close to its sun, Helios has a wide range of
climates.  Remarkably, though, Helios is nearly void of any types of violent
weather.  Helios weather is relatively calm with a few exceptions, most
notably in the temperate zones during the end of the summer month.  The
rapid change in temperatures throughout the polar and temperate  regions
usually brings about a couple of small storms a year.  Occasionally one of
these storms will brew into a major storm, but rarely does the storm last
more than four or five days.

The band around the equator represents Helios' only semi-constant
temperature zone.  Most of the land area in this range (2 bands) is either
desert or arid plains.  Any activity in these areas during the daylight
hours is hazardous as the temperature rarely drops below 40deg C (104deg F).
This central range band is termed the "equatorial zone."

During the summer month, this "daylight danger" band extends through most of
the temperate zone and includes 5 more range bands for a total of 7 bands
from the equator.  This zone (these 5 range bands) is termed the "temperate
zone."  During the winter, this zone is considered the main temperate zone
because the temperature ranges from 29deg (85deg F)closest to the equator to
- -10deg C (13deg F)nearest the polar zone.

The area on either pole is covered by a seasonal ice cap.  Due to the
extreme axial tilt, the ice cap extends out from the poles nearly 4 range
bands.  The fringes of these polar caps are very thin, and usually only
occur at night. The shortness of Helios' rotational period prevents the
formation of any thick ice caps, but during the short winter month, the
polar area can be quite treacherous to navigation.  The temperature in this
band ranges from 31deg C (88deg F)during the summer on the fringe to -31deg
C (-24deg F) at the polar cap during the middle of winter.  This zone is
known as the polar zone.

 Flora and Fauna:
Most of the native wildlife and plant life of Helios is typical of most
habitable worlds with a few exceptions.

Saltad:
Much of the land in the temperate zone is forest land covered by a tree
native to Helios.  The rumors as to the origin of Helios' original name,
Willow, trace back to early Solomani settlers finding these trees and
mistaking them for Terran Willow tree.  The difference between the two trees
was no doubt soon discovered as the Helios "willow's" wood is as hard as
some metals.  Early in Helios history (see, History), the wood of this tree
was coveted by the nobles of the Sarid Subsectors, as well as those of other
nearby Subsectors.  Many artisans made a fortune on Willow wood carvings.
The tree, officially known as the Saltad, is still in plenteous supply on
Helios, and the citizens of Helios are still involved in selling hand carved
trinkets.  More recently, a few of the more extravagantly wealthy citizens
of the Coalition have commissioned hand carved furniture from the artisans
of Helios.  These items are quickly becoming a status symbol of wealth in
the Coalition.

Whiskey Bug:
Perhaps the only known predator to the Saltad is the Gyrnius Celaecun, or
the Whiskey Bug.  The Whiskey Bug is a small flying insect that grows to
approximately 5 centimeters long.  The Whiskey Bug resembles the Terran
Beetle in shape and size, however its color is a reddish brown, not the
characteristic black of the Terran Beetle.  The Whisky Bug uses pollen from
the flowers native to Helios to create a fermented "nectar" that it then
uses to break down the wood of the Saltad tree.  During the early spring,
when sprouts emerge from the strong Saltad tree's trunk, adult Whiskey Bugs
will burrow through the soft sprout spots to the very heart of the tree.
There they will extract the soft heartwood that is the very life of the
Saltad tree.  In the harder, outer wood, Whiskey Bugs carve small chambers
called "vats" in which the masticated and moistened heartwood is deposited.
Finally, a dose of bacteria, from a special pouch inside the Whiskey Bug's
mouth is added to the mix, and the chamber is sealed up.  Inside, the
bacteria soften and partially metabolize the heartwood, using enzymes and an
organic acid. This mixture is known as the "sour mash," which indicates part
of the origin for the beetle's name.  After a few days, the beetles re-open
the vat chamber and consume the now-edible sour mash.  The youngest beetles
feed the pupae by carrying them from vat to vat, as the vats are opened.
The bacteria metabolize the mash anaerobically and produce alchol
by-products which remain in the mash.  Anyone attempting to drink the alchol
run-off of mash produced in the wild would likely go blind or die because it
is mostly methyl alchohol.  Some Heliosans are keepers of these bugs.  Under
carefully controlled conditions, the sour mash will produce almost all
ethanol, with the remaining methanol being removed before bottling.
Heliosan Whisky Bug Juice is known for its sour-sweet taste and powerful
kick.  Before the Collapse it was made by many moonshiners on the main
continent, and carefully inspected brands were popular throughout the
subsector.  In the New Era, not many of Helios' inhabitants are inclined to
produce hard alchohol, but visitors to the weekly Auction may have the
opportunity to sample it.  Some visitors have been impressed with the drink
and they occasionally export it small quantities, either for personal
consumption or resale. 
   Herbivore, Grazer  (F13-A*-S9/18/36) (A* - If Provoked)
      Weight:     0.1 kg     Weapon:     Poison/Stinger(As Armed Melee)
      Hits:       1          To Hit:     5
      Initiative: 1          Damage/Pen: 1p1*/Nil (* - 1 point, not 1D6)
      Armor:      1/2        Range:      Short

Felden:
The natural enemy of the Whisky Bug is the Felden.  The Felden is a small
animal that lives in the rotted shells of Saltad trees that Whisky bugs
leave behind.  Similar to the Terran anteater, the Felden has a long snout
that it uses to reach into the hollow center of the Saltad tree and eat the
Whisky Bugs.  Felden are slow stupid creatures that do little more for
Helios than keep the Whisky Bug population in check.  The Felden is nearly
blind and can actually hear the high pitched resonance sounds the Whisky
bugs use to converse with one another.  While the meat of the Felden can be
eaten, there is very little that is easily gotten and it is very tough and
bland.
   Omnivore, Gatherer  (F8-A3-S2/4/8)
      Weight:     3 kg       Weapon:     Claws(As Armed Melee)
      Hits:       1          To Hit:     5
      Initiative: 1          Damage/Pen: 1D6/Nil
      Armor:      1          Range:      Short

Grupami:
The Grupami is a fish native to the coastal waters in the temperate zone
during the winter month.  During the summer month, the Grupami migrate to
more temperate waters in the polar zone, but each winter they return to the
temperate zone.  There is little about the Grupami that is spectacular.  It
serves as one of the major sources of food for the inhabitants of Helios.
The only distinguishing feature of the Grupami occurs at the beginning and
ending of both the winter and summer month, when Helios experiences its
equinox.  At this time, the Grupami begin their migration to and from the
polar zone, and when they begin to migrate, they swim faster by jumping out
of the water (similar to Terran flying fish).  What makes this event so
spectacular is that the scales of the Grupami are made of a reflective base
with a crystalline covering.  As the Grupami jump out of the water, the
sunlight is reflected of the base of the scale and refracted through the
crystalline covering creating a "rainbow trail" that arcs with the jumping
pattern of the fish.  This phenomenon is best viewed in the last few hours
before sunset, or the first few hours after sunrise.
   Herbivore, Grazer  (F20-A*-S10/20/40) (A* - Never Attacks)
      Weight:     1 kg       Weapon:     None
      Hits:       1          To Hit:     N/A
      Initiative: 1          Damage/Pen: N/A
      Armor:      0          Range:      N/A


Parinklo:
Another animal native to the waters of Helios is the Parinklo.  Similar to
the Terran Tiger shark, the Parinklo is a saltwater mammal that grows to
nearly 3 meters in length.  The Parinklo is an extremely agile sea creature
and is considered the most dangerous predator on Helios.  Parinklo, like the
Terran sharks they resemble,  travel in groups of four or more called
regalia.  A single Parinklo has been known to sever the leg of an unwary
swimmer with is vice-like jaws and triple rows of teeth.  In addition to the
danger presented by the Parinklo's teeth, the creature has two tentacles
located just behind the pectoral fins that stabilize the creature.  Each of
these tentacles is tipped with poisonous barbs.  When hunting, the Parinklo
will bring itself close to its prey and wrap its poisonous barbs around it.
The poison is a quick acting muscle relaxant that serves to render the prey
motionless while the regalia divide the meal between themselves.
   Carnivore, Killer  (F2-A18-S20/40/80)
      Weight:     50 kg      Weapon:     Poison/Tentacle(As Grapple)
      Hits:       16         To Hit:     18
      Initiative: 6          Damage/Pen: 1p*/Nil (* - See Note)
      Armor:      1/2        Range:      Long
      Weapon:     Teeth(As Armed Melee)
      To Hit:     5          Note:  Poison renders victim motionless in 1D6
      Damage/Pen: 5D6/1/2      turns.  If grapple holds till then, Parinklo 
      Range:      Short        will attack with teeth.


Mineral Content:
While there have never been radioactive deposits found on Helios, the world
was once a world rich in fossil fuels.  Before the collapse, many of the
mineral resources of the planet were mined and taken away by the prospector
in for a quick buck.  Helios now has a good supply of fossil fuels as well
as some decent mineral deposits.  While iron ore is readily available, much
of Helios' imports consist of other minerals necessary for their society.

Extended System:
Helios occupies the first orbit, orbit zero, around Zenith, the systems K6 V
star.  Because of the size of the star, and Helios' proximity to it, travel
to and from Helios is somewhat difficult.  Ships arriving in the system find
that the 100-diameter limit imposed on them by their jump drive leaves them
somewhere around the number two orbit, days from Helios.  Fortunately, this
second orbit is a planetoid belt filled with icy bodies, and many unprepared
starfarers find themselves filling their fuel tanks with the ice of these
ice planetoids.  Orbit one is occupied by a single small planetoid.  The
outer orbits are also filled with other planets, but Helios has yet to begin
to explore the potential resources of these planets.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:26:19 -0500
Subject: BARD: Helios - History/Culture (LONG)

HISTORY

The earliest known references to Helios are in the Imperial archives
discovered on Sarid (Oriflamme 1532) in the subsector capital records
building.  According to the reference, in 532 a group of Solomani Settlers
landed on Willow (as Helios was then known) to attempt repairs to their Jump
drive.  Finding Willow a pleasant planet, they decided to stay.  The Saltad
trees that covered the land masses of the planet reminded the settlers of
willow trees on their Terran home, and they named the planet after the
willow tree.

Willow is not mentioned in the archives again until 736.  By this time,
Willow had become a hiding spot for all sorts of Imperial criminals and riff
raff.  Willow's position within the 100-diameter limit of Zenith, her star,
made travel between the planet and the jump point long.  This fact along
with the lack of gas giants in the system made travel to Willow difficult.
Only those with a reason to "get lost" settled on Willow.  Many criminals
had "retired" on Willow when they felt the law brushing close to their
heels.  Tracking a criminal was not only expensive because of the in-system
travel requirements, but it was also hampered by the lack of settlers.  As a
result, only the most sought after criminalswere tracked to Willow.

Criminals were not the only settlers who found their way to Willow.  Many
others found their way to the backwater planet including malcontents,
debtors, jilted lovers, and anti-Imperial extremists.  No solid government
was formed, and very few of the settlers even lived in the small villages
that were formed.

Many of the settlers had taken up carving the wood of the Saltad tree native
to Willow.  The wood of the Saltad tree resembles ivory.  The wood is very
hard even when the tree is alive, but when the wood is dead and cured
properly, it becomes nearly hard as plate steel. Saltad wood carvings became
status symbol among the nobility of the Sarid subsector.  Willow was
occasionally visited by traders who would stop at the planet and trade their
goods for the Saltad wood carvings.

By the mid 700's the Saltad wood carvings done by the people of Willow were
claiming prices of 5000 to 10000 Cr in the markets of Sarid.  Willow had
become a regular stop for a few of the Free Traders roaming the Sarid
Subsector, but the real history of Willow begins almost a sector away on a
small world in the Promise sector named Amoy.

In 740, a boy was born, on Amoy, to a construction worker and his wife.  The
child, Garaath, it would be discovered, was a powerful psion.  When he was
40, in 780, Garaath had visions of angry mobs and violence.  During the
course of the next five years, he had more visions, and by 785, Garaath
understood what he had seen coming, the Psionic Supressions of 800.

Garaath had a staunch belief that, if he showed kindness to others, they
would be obligated by their nature to return this kindness.  He referred to
this as the Eternal Circle.  During the 15 years between Garaath's
premonition and the Psionic Supressions, Garaath began recording his beliefs
and sharing them with others.  Slowly Garaath gained a religious following,
but when the Psionic Supressions erupted, this small group was not enough to
protect Garaath from the attack of anti-psionic mobs.  The story here is
somewhat fuzzy.  Some records state that Garaath was killed by the attacks,
while others state that he placed himself in a state of suspended animation.
All accounts agree, however, that Garaath was never seen again.  

The Church of Brotherly Kindness                  

        The religion, the Church of Brotherly Kindness, nearly died out, and
without its a core group of believers, it would have.  The small group of
believers slowly recovered from their defeat and quickly developed an active
mission program.  The writings of Garaath were collected and published as
the Words of Kindness.  Many others joined the faith, and by 1100, the
church had more than 1,000,000 members.  A small branch of the church
developed in the Sarid subsector, but the group floundered under heavy
persecution.  In early 1103, citing religious persecution, this small group
petitioned the Duke of Sarid for some land where the group could settle.
The duke granted the petition and gave the church a small island in the
southern hemisphere of Willow.  The church was able to set up a small self
sufficient community, and, excluding a few minor incidents, the rest of the
world tended to leave them alone.

The Final War & Collapse

	When Virus swept through the subsector, it did not ignore Willow.  An
infected passenger liner came to the world seeking refuge from the chaos
that was sweeping the subsector, but it brought that chaos with it.  Most of
the malcontents, and the settlement on the main continent started to fight
over the remaining  food and high tech devices.  The CBK had very few high
tech devices and was left alone.  It is believed that the rest of the
inhabitants died once the automated farm equipment stopped working, but no
one has made a complete survey of the world.  So it is possible a few
families have survived till the present.

The Final War and resulting Collapse devastated the universal CBK, and the
only known surviving group is the group that settled on Willow.  Virus also
hit the island of the CBK; however, the people there were a community, and
when they realized that their high tech devices were no longer functioning
properly, they simply resolved to go without high tech help.  They turned
off and destroyed all their high tech equipment, and started to relearn the
old ways.  It was not easy and was not without casualties, but by pulling
together, and helping each other the CBK was able to survive with minimal
loss of life.

The New Era

After a decade of struggle, the CBK had stabilized at technological level of
four.  Most people were involved in farming, but some parts of the community
manufactured the tools necessary to survive.  The population was too small
to set up massive assembly line factories.  Instead most  manufacturing is
done in small workshops, with most of the work done by hand.  These
workshops still survive today, and one of the exports Helios has, is
hand-crafted steam powered automobiles.  These are especially popular with
Luhtalans.

In 1196, an Oriflammi survey ship came to Willow to assess the planet's
capacity for colonization.  At first the survey went very well, the planet
had plenty of untapped potential, and several high tech devices were
discovered on the main continent.  Then the ship found the CBK community.
This distressed the Technarchs, because any native population would have
control over the planet's destiny.  The Technarch's debated whether they
could destroy the settlement, and claim the planet was uninhabited.  Before
a decision could be made, the news was leaked to the rest of the Dawn
League. The League quickly launched a recontact mission to establish
relations with the new community.  The CBK was delighted to learn that
others had survived the Collapse, and upon learning of Dawn League and its
mission to rebuild civilization, they petitioned for admission.

After a few  months of discussion, on XI-11-1196, Willow was admitted to the
League. The Oriflammi strongly protested this, Willow only had 700
residents, if they were given full voting rights, each resident of Willow
would have the same voting rights as 14,300 citizens of Oriflamme.  But the
Federalist block sensed an ally in Helios, and also wanted to penalize the
Technarchs for even contemplating destroying a new found community.
Following the tradition of several other worlds, the CBK renamed their
planet Helios, after an ancient sun god.  

Since being admitted, Helios has decided to help outfit expeditions into the
Wilds to uplift the devastated worlds out there. They have also been a burr
in the Oriflammen sides.  There are several reasons for this.  Mainly, they
are a bit annoyed that the Technarchs thought about destroying them.  They
also disagree with the basic philosophy of the government of Oriflamme.
Finally, it amuses the fun-loving Heliosians when the Oriflammen get so
flustered when their plans are upset.


CULTURE

Even though Helios has one of the lowest tech levels in the  Coalition, the
Helosians do not have a great desire to acquire better technology.  Sure a
TL-12 toaster oven would be nice and would improve the quality of life, but
the effort required to produce TL-12 toasters could better be spent helping
the people in the Wilds.  The residents can see the benefits of technology;
it's just that it's not a high priority.  The improvement of people's lives
is a worthy goal, not the improvement of material things.

Religion has a deep and broad background on Helios, but the way the
Heliosians live it is very practical.   They follow a principle known as
"Life Style Evangelicalism."  The idea is to live your life in such a  way
that others see how different you are, and want to know more about what
makes you different.  This gives you the opportunity to tell them about your
religion.  About 80% of the population attend church services regularly, but
they feel no ill will towards the other 20%.  All of them have been  raised
in the same town, and they all went to the same school.  They all have
pretty much the same values; some just do not feel a need to attend church
services.

There are only 700 citizens of Helios.  During the first year of their
membership in the RC, they realized that they needed an immigration policy.
If they allowed unlimited immigration, the Oriflamme Technarchs would simply
ship in 10,000 colonists, and Helios would become a de facto Oriflamme
colony. On the other hand, Helios is a nice planet, and it would be a sin to
allow it to go uninhabited.  So the residents decided to allow immigration,
but a  potential immigrant would need to get permission to immigrate from a
two-thirds  majority of the native population.  Once she has this
permission, she is a full citizen of Helios.  A potential immigrant is
supposed to make appointments with various families and arrange to meet.
Usually these meetings take place over dinner.  The potential immigrant and
the family converse about life on Helios, and what the immigrant would bring
to the community.  After the immigrant has talked to most of the people on
the planet, a meeting is held, and the citizens vote on whether or not the
immigrant should be allowed to  become a citizen.  These meetings are
usually held at Festival. (See Below)

Helios holds an Auction each week, on the first day of the week.  The
government does not take a host cut.  This is mainly to siphon off trade
from nearby Oriflamme.  It's just another way the Heliosians can annoy their
rival neighbor, the Oriflammen.  Most of the goods sold at Helios' Auction
are big ticket items; smaller items go on to Oriflamme.  The savings on
smaller items is not usually enough to warrant taking the cargo to Helios.
Helios benefits from this because the big ticket items tend to bring more
people visiting for the Auction, and these visitors spend credits visiting
the Festival.

The Heliosians hold their Festival at the same time as the Auction. Here
they gather to discuss matters affecting the community and to celebrate.
Each family sends one member to the weekly meeting, where any issues
affecting the community are decided.  These include electing the
representative to the Assembly of Worlds, deciding on trade issues, voting
on immigrants, and where to send the next Wild relief mission.  Festival is
also a time for fun; there are many carnival style rides and amusements.
Farmers from the outer reaches of the  island come and sell their goods, and
children show off their art projects from school.  The visiting auction
goers are encouraged to take part and have fun. They often wind up buying
hand-crafted trinkets and furniture.  Heliosian furniture is carved from the
Saltad wood and is quite stylish and rather popular.  


POLITICS

Helios is a representative democracy.  Each adult is granted one vote, but
often, voting is done by one member of the family for the entire family.  A
youth is considered an adult on his 17th birthday, but may attend voting
sessions at Festival when he is 15.

Helios has three elected officials. The Assembly representative, which
currently is Currun Nealgu, an elderly gentleman with a wicked sense of
humor. There is also Wes Guguan, the planet sheriff.  He does not have much
to do.  The most crime he has to fight is the occasional off worlder who
has had too much to drink.  If there was ever any emergency, he has the
power to deputize available citizens.  Finally, Lizi Neaftu is the starport
administrator. The  starport is not much to look at.  It's a concrete pad,
with a nearby stream, to supply unrefined fuel for the starships.  There is
a radar beacon, and a warning system to let Lizi know when someone is in
orbit.  The pad only has room for four ships, if a fifth showed up, Lizi
would have to put the extra ship in the field behind the starport.  She
would first have to move out the cows that typically graze there.

All of the residents on Helios favor the Federalist wing of the assembly,
and while they believe in the wing, politics is not a way of life.
Assemblyman Nealgu summed up the Heliosian attitude best when he said,
"There are much more important things in life than arguing about the finer
points of law. People should get out and do stuff; we Helosians try to lead
by example."


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:26:29 -0500
Subject: BARD: Helios - WTH & Ext Sys Data (LONG)

System Detail:

Orbit        Name       UWP          Remarks
Primary      Zenith    K6 V
  0          Helios    E648243-4     Lo Ni
  1                    YS00000-0
  2                    Y000000-0     Planetoid Belt
  3                    Y706000-0
  4                    Y603000-0
      5                YS00000-0
      7                YS00000-0
     20                YS00000-0

Planetary Detail:

     Orbital Period:  0.12 std yrs  (43.83 std yrs)
    Rotation Period:  39.85 std yrs  (  1.66 std days) 	
         Axial Tilt:  27 deg
            Density:  Average (0.42 std masses)
            Gravity:  0.5G
         Water Area:  82%
         Atmosphere:  0.66 std atms  High Carbon Dioxide
     Weather Factor:  +1
      Fossile Fuels:  Yes
       Radioactives:  No
Exploitation Factor:  1.0
               Soil:  No Mods
         Island Hex:  Agriculture     -  Growing Season:  ~20 days
                                         70% Useable Area
                                         1.3 Richness Factor
                      Raw Materials   -  15% Useable Area
                                         50 Richness Factor
                      Hydro Electric  -  14.4 kw/km^2
                      Wind Power      -  210 kw/km^2

Temp Charts:  (in Celcius)
    Hex   Summer (Max)   Winter (Min)
     1     49.9            46.2
     2     44.9            41.2
     3     44.0            29.4
     4     43.0            17.7
     5     42.1             5.9
     6     41.1            -5.8
     7     36.1           -10.8
     8     31.1           -15.8
     9     26.1           -20.8
    10     21.1           -25.8
    11     16.1           -30.8

HELIOS PLANETARY ECONOMIC PROFILE


SUMMARY STATISTICS

      Population:  700
      Tech Level:  4
Std of Nutrition:  4.39
  Std of Shelter:  100
   Std of Living:  50
        % change:  6.57%

AVAILABLE OUTPUT*  Cr

Heavy Industrial:  4587
Light Industrial:  2300**
    Construction:  4687
       Materials:  52

*Available output refers to that portion of an economy's output not 
needed to pay for depreciation or otherwise support the economy itself.

**Light Industrial available output is put toward increasing the standard 
of living.  Other uses will decrease the %change of the standard of living.


AGRICULTURE

         Hex:  1
  Tech Level:  4
 Ag Laborers:  500
  Ag Capital:  600
    Richness:  1.3
        Land:  200km^2
   Materials:  600Cr
Price of ACs:  1.44MCr
      Output:  3071.25Cr


LIGHT INDUSTRY

   Tech Level:  4
    Light ILs:  10
    Light ICs:  10
        Power:  2KW
Price of LICs:  5000Cr
    Materials:  4Cr
       Output:  3000Cr


HEAVY INDUSTRY

   Tech Level:  4
    Heavy ILs:  53
    Heavy ICs:  53
        Power:  10.6KW
Price of HICs:  79500Cr
    Materials:  424Cr
       Output:  15900Cr


CONSTRUCTION

  Tech Level:  4
   Const ILs:  100
   Const ICs:  100
       Power:  20KW
Price of ICs:  25000Cr
   Materials:  400Cr
      Output:  30000Cr


MATERIALS	

         Hex:  1
  Tech Level:  4
Mat Laborers:  37
 Mat Capital:  37
Price of MCs:  1850Cr
       Power:  7.4KW
      Output:  1480Cr


POWER

       Hex:  1
 Windmills:  TL-4
Efficiency:  0.5
     Price:  1.63MCr
    Output:  32.6KW


INFRASTRUCTURE

ROADS

       Hex:  1
Tech Level:  4
      Load:  6 Million km/tonnes
       Kms:  500
     Price:  2MCr


RESOURCE LINES

        Hex:  1
        Kms:  20
   Max Load:  6 Million km/tonnes
Actual Load:  0.00155 Mkm/tonnes
      Price:  80,000Cr


VEHICLES

    Tech Level:  4
      Capacity:  0.031 Million km/tonnes
Materials Used:  7.75Cr
  Price of Veh:  12,400Cr


Depreciation Note:  My personal preferance is to depreciate agricultural 
capital as well as other forms of capital.  If you do not wish to use 
this alternate, add 2,880Cr output to both Heavy Industrial and 
Construction output.



Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Aug 1996 23:45:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Simple Space Combat

>> 2) Facing.  I like having different damage depending on facing.  Adds a lot
>> to the role-playing, too.
>> 
>> A simple way of handling this is to assume:
>> 
>> a) closing range (or pursuing retreating enemy): bow exposed
>> b) range same: broadside
>> c) opening range (or running from pursuit): stern exposed
>
>Hmm.  Interesting.  If facing affects damage...
[snip]
>what method would you suggest be used to increase/decrease that damage based
on facing?

Both TNE and Brilliant Lances used facing to determine two things: (i) what
weapons can bear on a target, and (ii) what systems can be damaged by a hit.

Thus, if I'm running away with my stern towards you, I can't shoot you with
my spinal mount.  Similarly, if I'm heading straight towards you, you can't
hit my maneuver drive.  (But you'll probably nail my bridge.)

Now, facing is a real problem for large actions.  In fact, Battle Rider
ignores facing.  But for small actions it is (I think) fun.  

Problem is, if the existing T4 space combat system doesn't use facing (and I
get the impresion they left it out) it doesn't make sense to add it to a
simplified version.  Guess I'll be sticking to Brilliant Lances.  Time to
write a T4 to BL ship conversion program :-(


Simplified Sensor Suggestion:

Could you combine sensing and shooting into the same roll by using the lowest
range and skill level between the sensor and weapon (and their operators)? 
Saves a step...
 

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 00:21:24 GMT
Subject: Imperial Citizenship (again) & the Moot

Imperial Citizenship

Like Ethan, I can't get to all my stuff right now, but I'm certain I read
somewhere about an emperor (after Cleon I) granting citizenship to all
sentients within the Imperium.  Which obviously means that 

(a) they didn't all have it (or why grant it), and

(b) being a citizen must have been better than just being a resident (or why
make such a big deal about it)


The Moot

Was the Moot in existence before the founding of the Third Imperium?  If it
was, we could model it like the Senate (ie. formerly significant, but reduced
to a debating club and rubber-stamp for the emperor).  

So, suppose that the Moot was the governing body of the Sylean Federation. 
At first a relatively small (and functional) body, over the years it has
grown larger and less effective (like the House of Lords, the Privy Council,
and so forth).  However, individuals within it are powerful, either by
offices that they hold or influence that they have.  After years of
politicing, Cleon and his faction (and he must have had support for this)
manage to get the Imperium restored (their word).  Will the Moot eliminate
itself?  No.  Will its members give up all their power?  No.  Instead, they
compromise.  

The Moot is retained as a body, and even retains powers within the original
borders of the Sylean Federation.  Some powers are voluntarily (and
explicitly) given to the emperor.  Others are let slip by default, even
though officially retained by the Moot.  The power structure shifts over a
few generations, as nobles realize that sitting in the Moot matters less than
holding an Imperial Governorship.

This also leaves room for drifts in signifieds - shifts in meaning for
language and customs.  Two examples (both fairly well-known in sf circles):

1) When Wren built St. Pauls in London, the King described it as "aweful,
pompous, and artificial" - which was actually a compliment, today we would
say "awe-inspiring, full of pomp, and well-built" (source: Poul Anderson)

2) One of the primary rights in the USA is freedom of religion.  But when
that was written one of the 'several liberties' being infringed upon by the
British was the right to discriminate against Catholics, who were even
allowed their own laws in other British colonies.  The founders would have
been shocked to learn that freedom of religion included non-Protestant
Christianity, let alone other religions entirely. (source: John Barnes)



Another thought: possibly there should be some 'meaningless and trivial'
stuff included in the founding document.  After all, look at the Magna Carta!
 Mentions things like specific amounts for death duties, bans all fishweirs
from all rivers, and standardizes measures for wine, corn (wheat), and cloth!
 This in addition to things like habius corpus.  So maybe we should include
some stuff we know will sound silly in 1105.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #336
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 21 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 337

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Kinetic Kill Missiles
         2. Re: T4 availability
         3. RE: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2
         4. RSSC: Simple Space Combat
         5. [none]
         6. Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)
         7. RE: Founding Document
         8. Re: RSSC: Simple Space Combat
         9. Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)
        10. Re: Trading in T4
        11. T4:  RSSC Proposal 3
        12. Galactic 2.1 now available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kinetic Kill Missiles

  

 
Willim F. Hostman said: 
> Well, FF&S contradicts some 15 years of prior cannon... Special Supplement
> _: Missiles (Either #2 or #3) clearly delineates missile types, and nukes
> are NOT the standard... previous cannon seems to have been flechette
> warheads or BB warheads, ala the US Sidewinder... get close and pepper him
> with shrapnel. Not having designed these for FF&S, I don't know how
> feasable they really are, but they are cannonical, as Missiles says that
> the warheads are not normally direct impact missiles (which did more damage
> than normal missiles). I Have designed many missiles using SS_:Missiles.

	I've spent a fairly considerable amount of time trying to make BB 
warheads work.  They present a number of problems with both technical and 
gaming aspects.
	Getting a missile close enough to hit a ship with kinetic energy 
weapons is very difficult because if the target has any trainable weapons 
(laser turrets) it becomes a trivial problem to shoot down a missile at 
such a short range that there is essentially no light-lag.  A missile 
trying for an intercept gets fewer and fewer options for how to 
accelerate.  This severely reduces its evading opportunities and makes 
predicting the missile's future position much easier.
	The answer, as I see it, is to use a BB warhead which detonates 
some distance out from the target.  The BBs spread out in an even 
pattern so that no matter where the target runs to, it will be struck by 
at least one BB.  Replacing the mass of a nuke warhead with one made up 
of  BBs (and using a realistic formula for missile delta-v) gives a 
pretty good point of comparison.  Assuming that the target ship's facing 
is unknown, such a missile must detonate at a few thousand kms, or less, 
(depending on acceleration capabilities of target) to hit a 100Td ship.  
This sounds pretty good, but I have been assured by folks on the Beta 
list more knowledgable than I that any ship laser could eat dozens of 
these missiles at such a close range.
	If we assume that the target's facing is known (reasonable given 
what our resident astronomers have been able to deduce about Trav 
sensors) and that the ship has a limited rate of turning, 
(1degree/second/maneuverG) then our detonation range moves out to a more 
comfortable 10,000 or so Kms.
	This is where the gaming problem comes in.  The equation to
determine the detonation range and BB density of a KKM involves several
squared terms so that changing the target's acceleration or rate of turn
capabilities creates drastic changes. A warhead which is devastating
against a 1G ship is barely effective against a 4+G ship.  Why?  Because
higher accelerations give the ship a greatly larger future position 
footprint.  Furthermore, since the BBs are spread out in a grid across 
the targets footprint, bigger ships take more hits than smaller ships.  A 
missile capable of hitting a 100Td adventurer's ship will do 1,000 hits 
to a 100,000Td battleship.  It won't penetrate the big ships armor but it 
would instantly kill almost every surface fixture on the ship.  Taking 
this one step further, why not just fill the warhead with sand and polish 
the target down to a cue ball?
	If you start talking about targets that can't maneuver out of the 
way you confront exactly the same issues as the rock-droppers.  Speaking 
of rocks, KKMs have at least as much potential for mass destruction as 
the nuclear det-lasers that some would like to ban for being too dangerous.
	So how does one accomodate KKMs into the game?  Give different
stats for each type of target?  Assume a 4G target, allowing lower accel
targets to escape with less damage than they deserve and higher accel
targets with none?  How do you regulate/defend against the mass
destruction capabilities of KKMs?
	If I knew the answers to these questions I would have posted 
FF&S/BL rules for KKMs a couple of months ago.
	Remember, you asked :-)


Michael Koehne said: 
> 	- why doesnt a TL 13+ starship have non tuneable X-Ray 
> 	  lasers, a TL 13 X-Ray laser only needs a diameter of
> 	  40 cm to have optimum. (shortrange 1 seconds, and no
> 	  loss at extrem range of 8 seconds) so a 150 Mj X-Ray
> 	  laser would be as good as the tl15 turret.

	You're right.  There's no good reason for ships not to use x-ray
lasers.  If you want a justification then tuneables are used so that 
fire into an atmosphere is still possible.

 
> 
> 	- Why do ships have particle accelerators and meson guns ?
> 	  Even the small tl15 accelerator displaces 87 tons, enough
> 	  to have a devasting laser batterie. Meson guns have a very
> 	  short range, and a meson screen is cheap.

	Folks on the TML noticed that too and created the rule that a 
lasers Discharge Energy can be no greater than TL*50.
 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:10:40 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 20 Aug 96 at 20:04, Bill Rutherford spewed:

> Does anybody know when Imperium Games will (or did, as the case may well
> be...) mail the hardbound T4 to those of use who pre-ordered copies?  I've
> seen a bit of traffic on this list from those who got copies at GenCon and I
> can't stand the wait! - Bill
> 

Traded e-mail with Matt Machtan on this subject late last week, the 
result of which is the addition to the "News" page on IG's website.  
As of 8/16/96, they still hadn't received them from the printers, and 
it sounded like we were looking at end of August at the earliest.

The softcover has hit the stores here today, and I picked 1 up...

Stu


"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 01:43:44 -0500
Subject: RE: T4:RSSC (alternate proposal) 2

On 08/19/96 at 11:04 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> 1.  Initiative contest (Leadership+dice) vs (Leadership+dice)
>> 
>> We are going to use Tactics in movement, so let's just use
>> Leadership for initiative, OK?  

>Heh.  So we're back to my original (mis-typed) formula, eh?  Mebbe that 
>means I think best when I don't think. :P  (I knew you were going  to use
>tactics for movement. Yeah, that's the ticket! [G])

That's right!  You've got it now! <g>

>> Number of Dice:  1 is more simple, but 2 gives a bell curve which is more
>> realistic..I think.  What do you think?

>For initiative?  Well, it would depend on how much we want Leadership to 
>affect the outcome.  I favor a single die.  But if you think Leadership 
>should affect it less, then two dice is fine.  

Well, I want skill to count more, so 1 die it is.

Initiative:  (Leadership+1d6)  vs  (Leadership+1d6)

>I guess this would be as good a place as any to discuss our general 
>theory of how important skills are going to be in relation to the random 
>factor represented by the dice.  Heck, may as well discuss system quality 
>vs. random factors and vs. skills as well.  Which is going to be the most 
>important?  Which is going to be least important?

I'd *like* to think skill is the most important, and for roleplaying
purposes that would work well, <g> but system quality should come in a
close second.  Randomness needs to be included to create some
unpredictibility, but it should be less important than skill or system
quality.  Comments?


>> 2.  Movement (Initiative loser goes first, winner goes second)
>> 
>> Ranges:  

>> (Out of Sensor Range, Out of Range, Long Range, Short Range,
>> Contact) How about:  Undetected, Detected, Long, Short, Contact?

>Let's use ranges (it makes it more interesting, I think, on 
>balance (that is, the additional steps involved don't outweigh the play 
>value added)).  

Ok we agree on that then. We'll use ranges.

>Your first set of terms sounds better than the second, as 
>using "detected" and "undetected" may prove confusing if we are to use 
>sensors to locate ships.  

Yeah, but I'd prefer something shorter than "Out of Sensor Range" or "Out
of Range." <g>

>Alternatively, we could use T4's range system which includes Long, Medium,
> Short, and Very Short.  

Actually, we probably should.  The ship's weapon and sensor tables are
based on those ranges aren't they?  It starts to get more complicated the
more ranges you add though.  I'm unsure about this.

>> Movement:   A ship may try to change range by one band per turn.
>>             A ship may attempt to EVADE, MAINTAIN, or CLOSE
             
>> The Contest:  Tactics (?or 1/2 Pilot?)  + MD6, Tie goes to
>>                 Initiative holder
 
>> My reasoning is that the just using the MDrive rating plus skill devalues
>> the hardware *too* much.  If we say the MDrive number is the number of D6
>> you roll then it works out better, IMO.  What do you think?

>The system is intellectually appealing to me.  It is more playable than 
>realistic, but that's what RSSC is all about. :)

I thought it fit in well with T4's use of several dice for tasks too.  It
*does* raise system qualities influence a good bit, but not *too* much.

>Why 1/2 Pilot?  Why not just Pilot?  

Well, I was using Pilot as a default skill, but I don't mind using Pilot +
Tactics even.

>I really want to avoid getting too complicated, but here are two 
>suggested formulae:

>Pilot+Tactics+MD6

This one!

I don't think it will bog the system down.  Sum Pilot and Tactics once
before you start the battle, then just add that sum to the dice.  Because
we are aiming this at PC ships, I suspect will have more players with high
pilot skill than players with high tactics skill.

Movement is decided...except for ranges.  We need to decide whether to use
T4's or simplify with fewer.

>> 3.  Combat (Initiative winner goes first, loser goes second)

>> 1.  We should certainly use the numbers that are generated for the ship b
>> the SSDS.

>Agreed!

Agreed!

>> 2.  We'd be better off *not* trying to invent something brand new if what
>> we already have will work.  How complicated does T4 make it?

>Not very.  T4 uses a target number derived from the target's size code.  
>DM's include the target's G rating and attacker's fire control  rating,
>with an optional DM for attacker's gunnery skill.  Difficulty  (ie, the
>number of dice rolled) is determined by the range, thusly:

>V. Short = Average (2D)
>Short = Difficult (2.5D)
>Medium = Formidable (3D)
>Long = Staggering (3.5D)

[There are those .5 dice again! <g>]

If we go with two ranges, how about Very Short and Medium?

>If we are going to use opposed tasks as our basis, we will need to  change
>this, of course.  Otherwise, I think the T4 system will work just  fine,
>if we make gunnery skill a standard DM.

Well, we don't *have* to use opposed tasks. Let me think on that.

>> Attacker's would add (Gunnery skill)+(Some Weapon Factor)+(Fire Control).

>Hmm.  Difficult to come up with a weapon factor.  The factors listed next 
>to weapons in the USP are damages at each range (very short, short, 
>medium, long).  So, we really shouldn't use those.  They should be used 
>for damage, as intended.

Agreed! 

The weapon factor we are looking for is the TO HIT factor.  I was thinking
different weapons would have some chance to hit at
different ranges.

>> >I move we use sensor rules like those in T4

>1.  Attacker tries to lock onto defender (roll for success, based on a 
>table look-up based on sensor rating, sensor ops skill, ship size, and
>range)

If unsuccessful the attack doesn't take place?  IOW, must lock to shoot?

>2.  If successful, attacker fires at defender (roll for success, based on 
>method explained above).

>3.  If successful, defender may attempt to decrease damage by launching 
>sandcasters.  Roll for success, based on:

>Taget Number: 7+(range factor: 0,-1,-2, or -4, from V.Short to Long) Once
>again, the difficulty rating is determined by range, using the same  table
>as for attack rolls.

>If successful, the damage is reduced by one point per successful 
>sandcaster hit.

>Now that you have a better idea of the attack, defend, and sensor ops 
>rules from T4, what do you think?

I seems a little more complicated than I'd like, and I can't say I like the
defender launching the sandcasters when the attack is successful...that's
too darn late! <g>

Let me think about this some more.  Why don't we think about how the system
will roleplay itself out?  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 01:09:01 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Simple Space Combat

On 08/20/96 at 11:45 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

Facing...

>Thus, if I'm running away with my stern towards you, I can't shoot you
>with my spinal mount.  Similarly, if I'm heading straight towards you, you
>can't hit my maneuver drive.  (But you'll probably nail my bridge.)

>Now, facing is a real problem for large actions.  In fact, Battle Rider
>ignores facing.  But for small actions it is (I think) fun.  

I think Joe and I are talking *really* small actions, 2 or maybe at most 3
ships, and non-warships at that.  I wouldn't count on many ships having
spinal mounts, foex.  <g> I *do* like the idea of facing having an effect
on where damage is done though. 

>Problem is, if the existing T4 space combat system doesn't use facing (and
>I get the impresion they left it out) it doesn't make sense to add it to a
>simplified version.  Guess I'll be sticking to Brilliant Lances.  Time to
>write a T4 to BL ship conversion program :-(

I think Dave and Merrick are already talking about that on gdw-beta. There
are likely to be several ship combat systems ranging from ridiculasly
simple to very complex before we get through. <g> 

>Simplified Sensor Suggestion:

>Could you combine sensing and shooting into the same roll by using the
>lowest range and skill level between the sensor and weapon (and their
>operators)?  Saves a step...

I started to say yeah, then changed my mind to no, then yes.  <g> The thing
is I don't really want a simple wargaming solution.  I want a *roleplaying*
solution.  I want the pilot, the sensor
operator, the gunner, the engineer all to *do* something!  Foex, the pilot
maneuvers (in or out), the gunner shoots, the sensOp ??????, and the
engineer fixes damage.  

I'm thinking maybe...

an Attack has two steps:

Sensor systems battle:
        SensOp goes for lock  VS  SensOp tries to jam
         [Getting a lock should be difficult and depend on range]
         [Maintaining a lock should be easier]
        
Weapon systems battle:
        Gunner with a plus for a lock  VS  Gunner deployed defense
         

I'm about convinced the progressive die roll would work for the sensor lock
advantage...


...Joe, what do you think?



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 02:43:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

David Jaques-Watson

> 1.	 JUDGES GUILD
>
> Who owns the rights to JG products now? I'm especially thinking of "50
> Starbases", which has a lot of great material for people like Andy Lilly.

Dunno. Copyrights and trademarks (in my layman's understanding) are
 tangible assets, of a corporation which can be disposed of when the
company goes under. It depends on who Judges Guild gave the rights
to.

- ------------------------------

Armand Suarez


> I ordered a hardcover, so I haven't seen anything official yet (but I'm
> hoping that "still at the printers" = errors being corrected),

I doubt it. The problems at the printers are problems in fitting the
printed guts to the covers, IMHO.

Eris:
> Most people are mundane, stay at home, old sticks in the mud,
> even in the 46th century!

Of course. Otherwise there would be Shoe-Salesman careers in character
generation.


LKW

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 17:13:48 -0400
Subject: Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:
> I'm with JD on this.  Marc's call was for the establishing document ("1,000
> words or less"); that's the declaration that says, as Les Howie put it, "I'm
> the Emporer; do whatever you were doing before; but don't mess with trade."

Right; I'm in agreement here.  I assume that this "establishing document"
would be at least as much propaganda and politics as it would be a legal
document.

I'm in favor of the Imperial constitution being a loose collection of
agreements, proclamations, and long-standing tradition, than a formal
constitution that was drawn up at the founding of the empire (in other
words, more like Great Britain than the United States).

In addition to all of that, there probably are some interesting
circumstances surrounding Cleon's rise to power.  I seriously doubt that he
was without both detractors and rivals - and (as in Rome prior to Caesar)
there may well have been some predecessors that almost, but not quite,
established an Empire before Cleon did.  It's interesting to speculate on
what all of those circumstances might have been.

> >From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
> >Imperial officers and enlisted men, like Imperial nobles, need to be given
> >immunity from local laws.
> 
> I think that this is a bad idea from two perspectives.

Definitely a bad idea as stated, but there's a good thread in there.  In my
campaigns, every resident of every world was an Imperial Subject.  A Subject
only had those rights that local (planetary) law gave them, and as long as a
Subject didn't break any Imperial laws, the Imperium left them alone under
the governance of whatever world they happened to be on.  If a Subject broke
an Imperial law, and wound up in Imperial custody, there would be an
Imperial trial (if they wound up in the custody of some world, so be it; the
Imperium let the world's courts try them instead).

Imperial Citizens, which consisted of any active-duty or honorably-discharged
Imperial Navy, Marine, or Scout serviceperson (in my campaign, the Army was
composed of local forces only), plus Knights and Nobility, were entitled to
due process and trial in Imperial courts (in my campaigns, this involved a
personal appeal to the appropriate Imperial representative on the world).

Note that this is significantly different than immunity from local laws
(although the effect was sometimes similar).  Depending on the severity of
the crime and the potential punishment, the Imperial representative could
either deny the request (and leave the Citizen at the mercy of the local
court - this was usually done only for misdemeanor and other truly minor
crimes where the only punishment would be a fine), schedule an Imperial
trial (the case would be heard by an Imperial judge, almost always a noble,
using Imperial rules of evidence, and with sentancing up to the judge), or
could recommend banishment (the no trial is held, but the Citizen is
banished from the world in question; if he or she ever returns there, the
local courts can do with them whatever they like).

> >Also, drop the "We, Cleon ..."  From what I understand, this was adopted by
> >royalty to show the unity of their will with that of the diety's.  
> 

The royal "we" usually meant that the royalty was speaking for the entire
country.  I don't think that "We, <name> ..." would be used that way,
though.

"Garriss J Civ ACC/DR(MITRE)" <garrisj@ns.langley.af.mil> wrote:
> >Out of Contact  - beyond sensor range, unsighted
> >Out of Range    - sighted but out of weapons range
> >Long Range      - Long range weapons may fire
> >Short Range     - Long and short range weapons may fire
> >Contact         - Ships are in contact for boarding, no weapon fire

Since T4 starship weapons have three listed ranges, how about expanding the
range table slightly:

Out of Contact 		- Beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped
Out of Range		- Sighted, but outside of weapons range.
Extreme Range		- Within range of longest-ranged weapons (band 4)
Long Range		- Within range of long-ranged weapons (band 3)
Effective Range		- Within range of most weapons (band 2)
Short Range		- Within range of all weapons (band 1)
Contact			- Used only for boarding, no weapons fire

> If two ships are currently at Short Range, can one ship attempt to close   
> to Contact range (for the purpose of boarding) while the other still has   
> a functional Manuever Drive?

I don't think so.  Boarding would really require that the oponnent be
disabled (unable to maneuver).  To board a ship, I'd say that you have to
start at short range, have an oponnent whose unable to maneuver, and then
close the range.

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> wrote:
> On 19 Aug 96 at 21:22, Nicholas Law spewed:
> > But the power of the Moot to reject an heir to the Iridium Throne 
> > should not be taken lightly. For a hereditary monarch there's 
> 
> Actually it should...  The Moot NEVER denied the succession of a 
> legitimate heir to the throne.

Here's a thought for you, borrowed from 20th century Earth history.  Perhaps
the Moot was created with fairly broad powers to approve the sucession, veto
Imperial legislation, and other "supervisory" roles ... but the Emperor
persuaded them to abdicate this power entirely.

How?

Simple.  The Emperor has the power the ennoble anyone; I'm sure he could
find enough people to support him that he could "water down" the moot with
nobles.  If he can convince the existing nobles of the Moot that he's
serious about doing so, then it's quite possible that the Moot would
abandon it's powers without having to be so watered down (the Nobility would
much rather be a less-powerful debating society than see the Emperor elevate
commoners - oh, the horror - COMMONERS into the Moot).

It worked for King Edward, didn't it?


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:40 +0100
Subject: RE: Founding Document

I like Wes Esser's idea of using the English Common Law model versus the 
constitutional approach for the founding document. It opens up more gaming 
possibilities.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:40:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Simple Space Combat

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I think Joe and I are talking *really* small actions, 2 or maybe at most 3
> ships, and non-warships at that.  I wouldn't count on many ships having
> spinal mounts, foex.  <g> I *do* like the idea of facing having an effect
> on where damage is done though. 

I don't mind including facing, but not in the basic RSSC rules.  It can 
be in the advanced section, with black globes and whatnot.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 09:31:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)

>This puts us at year 0 - in a situation pregnant with possibility.  People
will 
>be seeing conspiracy around every corner: Federalist on Shudusham are
planning
>a revolt; Imperial Guards are arresting Federal sympathizers; factions in
the 
>Moot are planning to depose Cleon - the possibilities are endless.  And what
>about the newly conquered worlds of Core.  Do they all REALLY get to keep
their
>own governments?  What about the worlds that Cleon captured and occupied?
>Can he enfeoff his a Marquis or a Count with a whole world?  What about the 
>democracy's that are part of the new territories?  Will Cleon confirm their
>independent rights (like Frederick I with the Italian city-states) or will 
>he attempt to place a noble in charge?
>
>It just seems to me that if you want a setting with room to adventure, don't

>give it a nice new constitution that spells out everyone's roles.  Give them

>a loose framework and plenty of rope to hang themselves.
>
>Let them fight for a constitution to limit Cleon-don't just hand it to them.


I like this, Will.  

With the hardcovers being delayed, I _still_ don't know what the 'official'
background is like, but this is the style of background I was aiming for.

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 15:45 +0100
Subject: Re: Trading in T4

Living in Germany, I was not able to go to GenCon this year and get a copy of 
T4.  My two hard cover books, like 2200 others, are still at the printer.  I 
have been interested in all of the reviews of T4 so far.  However, I haven't 
seen anything mention about which economics (trading) system T4 uses.  Is it a 
return to classic Traveller or does it use the MegaTraveller/TNE type system?

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:04:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3

Here's a summary/elaboration on what we've decided so far, plus what I've 
come up with.  I think this is at least closer to what we've said we want 
than what we've come up with before:

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Initiative:  (Leadership+1d6)  vs  (Leadership+1d6)


> I'd *like* to think skill is the most important, and for roleplaying
> purposes that would work well, <g> but system quality should come in a
> close second.  Randomness needs to be included to create some
> unpredictibility, but it should be less important than skill or system
> quality.  Comments?

That's the most logical. Whether it will be fun...we'll see! :)  But 
that's what I want to shoot for in order of importance: skill, systems, 
randomness.


> >> 2.  Movement (Initiative loser goes first, winner goes second)

We'll be using ranges.  The ranges will be:  

Out of Range (or whatever):  No sensors or weapons are usable at this range.
Long:  Military-class systems are useful at this range and closer.
Medium:  Civilian-class systems are useful at this range and closer.
Short:  
V. Short:  Boarding actions possible at this range if enemy is disabled.

Comments?



> Movement:   A ship may try to change range by one band per turn.
>             A ship may attempt to EVADE, MAINTAIN, or CLOSE
>              
> The Contest:  Pilot + Tactics + MD6, Tie goes to Initiative Holder

For simplicity and compatability, I move that the T4 task system be used 
for as many tasks as possible.  I like the movement system you came up 
with, so let's stick with that.  But when it comes to firing weapons, 
launching active defenses, operating sensors, etc., we should use the 
Opposed Tasks as given in the T4 Tasks section.  Yes, this means using 
1/2 dice.  I think it's worthwhile though because that will give it a 
more seamless unity with the T4 rule book.

Here's the task table for Military systems:

Range         Difficulty           Dice
V.Close       Easy                 Auto
Close         Average              2D
Medium        Difficult            2.5D
Long          Formidable           3D

Here's the task table for Civilian Systems:

Range         Difficulty           Dice
V.Close       Average              2D
Close         Difficult            2.5D
Medium        Formidable           3D
Long          Staggering           3.5D

Comments?


> Well, we don't *have* to use opposed tasks. Let me think on that.

I thought about it over night, and I believe you are right that we should 
not go with the T4 ship combat system in this manner.  Let's do as I said 
above, and like you've suggested from the beginning, and use the Opposed 
Tasks rules.


Sensor Lock:
	Must have sensor lock before you can fire.  There are three 
states for sensors: active scan, passive scan, jamming.  Sensor ops 
player declares which state the sensors will be in for each entire turn - 
they cannot be jamming when the opponent is scanning, then actively 
searching when the player is trying to attack.  
	If actively scanning, then the other ship can sense him and lock 
on automatically.
	If passively scanning, the other ship must make a task roll based 
on range.  Sensor Ops, DM + Sensor Rating.
	If jamming, the other ship must make an opposed task roll: Sensor Ops, 
with DM +Sensor Rating.

	After you have a sensor lock, you may fire.  Otherwise, you may not.  
Firing is an opposed task, gunner vs. defending pilot(?).  Dice roll is 
based on range, as always.

	That's as far as I can get until I get home and have the T4 rule 
book to refer to.  Some of this stuff may be wrong, as I may be 
mis-remembering the opposed task rules.  At any rate, this is along the 
lines of what I want to do, and I belive it agrees with what has been 
said before.

More later, but please comment on what is here.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Galactic 2.1 now available

Hi all. Well, I'm finally done upgrading my sector viewer, formerly
known as gal20.zip. The new version (which is about twice the size
of the old one) is called gal21.zip and is currently available from
the programs section of my homepage at http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

Here's a brief list of what's new:

  * Aside from red/amber zones, blue zones are now possible
  * Govt definitions separated into a user-modifiable data file
  * Population code interpretation routine fixed
  * Several sector construction menus redesigned for easier use
  * Option added for generating completely unsettled sectors
  * Configuration options incorporated directly into main menu
  * Jump route table separated into user-modifiable data file
  * Enabled the user to control the color of the jump routes
  * Developed an interactive world editor (use <F3> on a world)
  * Added several world write-ups from the RICE archives
  * Added Gushemege Sector from David Burden's HIWG archive
  * Added a one-sector TNE galaxy put together by Lewis Roberts
  * Added Paul Dale's "Shadows" adventure (Spinward Marches/1510)
  * Added a partial history for the Variant-1 Galaxy

   WARNING:   You must use "-d" option when unzipping:

      >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal21.zip    <<<<<<<<

   Available Now:  http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv
   (go to the programs section and look around)

Here's an alternate site if you have trouble getting the program:
ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/roleplay/programs/mapping/gal21.zip

Also, for those of you who have generated your own galaxy using
ver 2.0 and want to move it over to the new program, make sure
you copy the galdata\govt.dat file to your galaxy directory when
moving it over (each galaxy's government definitions are now held
in such a file) aside from just manually editing the gal.lst file
which you will also need to do (and make sure you leave no blank
lines at the end of gal.lst, sorry about that... I'll make the
routines that read this file more robust in version 2.2 :-)

If you have any problems with the program, or any ideas for new
features, or if you have any world write-ups for me to add, please
feel free to gimmie a holler...

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #337
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 21 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 338

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Re: Simple Space Combat
         2. T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)
         3. Re: T4 availability
         4. RE: T4 availability
         5. Re: Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)
         6. RE: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)
         7. Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)
         8. Re: Trading in T4
         9. Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles
        10. Re: Nuke Prohibition
        11. re: FFS&BL weapon questions
        12. Proposal: Shoe Salesman Character Generation :-)
        13. Re: T4 availability
        14. Re: Trading in T4
        15. RSSC Proposal 4 | Framework
        16. Re: T4 availability

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:29:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Simple Space Combat

On 20 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Problem is, if the existing T4 space combat system doesn't use facing (and I
> get the impresion they left it out) it doesn't make sense to add it to a
> simplified version.  Guess I'll be sticking to Brilliant Lances.  Time to
> write a T4 to BL ship conversion program :-(

Rob,

I think you're absolutely right.  Facing doesn't belong in RSSC, unless 
we do some sort of advanced rules that would bridge the gap between an 
RSSC and a full-up system like they're talking about on GDW-Beta.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:27:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)

Thinking about it further, if this opposed tasks thing works out, perhaps 
we should make the movement an opposed task as well.  Simply, skill vs. 
skill with maneuver drive rating as a DM.  

My theory in all this is that an RSSC shouldn't have any more complicated 
rules for firing weapons, etc. than the rest of the system is.  Firing a 
SMG is simply a matter of making a task roll based on skill and range.  I 
don't want it to be quite that simple - I like the idea of opposed tasks, 
esp. given the systems in use on ships and their 3 dimensions of 
maneuverability - but it shouldn't require an entirely new set of rules.

What do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:31:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> The softcover has hit the stores here today, and I picked 1 up...

I've been keeping in touch with the small games stores around here 
(northern IL), and as of yesterday none had the softcovers.  :(  The 
comic shops I spoke to won't even be carrying it.  One offered to special 
order it, the others didn't.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:49:43 -0400
Subject: RE: T4 availability

The hobby store I used hadn't heard anything from distributors about 
Traveller's release.  I asked him the other week if he knew when they 
might be getting it and he said hadn't heard any promo or 
solicitations for it.  Don't know if they'll get it or not.  Guess 
there's always mail order.

Clint

- ----------
From: 	Joe Walsh[SMTP:ransom@connect.iconnect.net]
Sent: 	Wednesday, August 21, 1996 10:31 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: T4 availability

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> The softcover has hit the stores here today, and I picked 1 up...

I've been keeping in touch with the small games stores around here
(northern IL), and as of yesterday none had the softcovers.  :(  The
comic shops I spoke to won't even be carrying it.  One offered to 
special
order it, the others didn't.


- -Joe
_______________________________________________________________________  
_______
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)





------------------------------

From: "Chris Arnold" <c.arnold@motiv.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:14:12 +0000
Subject: Re: Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)

> sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:
> > I'm with JD on this.  Marc's call was for the establishing document ("1,000
> > words or less"); that's the declaration that says, as Les Howie put it, "I'm
> > the Emporer; do whatever you were doing before; but don't mess with trade."
> 
> Right; I'm in agreement here.  I assume that this "establishing document"
> would be at least as much propaganda and politics as it would be a legal
> document.

That's what I figured as well.  The act of declaring an empire is a 
risky one; the declaration will be a glorified press release.  Cleon 
will spend as much time establishing his _right_ to be Emporer and 
the reasons why the empire needs to exist.  

The declaration needs to be something emotionally evocative, 
something for the nobles as well as the rank and file to rally 
around.  Putting too much legalese in will put people to sleep, not 
inspire them.  (They will need to be inspired to a patriotic fervour 
because Cleon's declaration will not be popular with quite a few 
people)

Put another way, the declaration must avoid legal statement for the 
exact reason that the declaration will cause unrest.  Look at it this 
way.  Cleon doesn't know for sure if his declaration will be 
universally embraced or if it will lead to a huge civil war.  He will 
be aware that painting himself into a corner with too many civil 
liberties in the declaration would be bad.  If the civil war comes 
about, he might need to resort to extreme measures to win it.

Just my .02Cr


- --
Chris Arnold    c.arnold@motiv.co.uk           
http://genesis.motiv.co.uk/~carnold/
Eclipse of the Upset Chap Quake Crew

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 18:36 +0100
Subject: RE: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)

Joe wrote:

Thinking about it further, if this opposed tasks thing works out, perhaps 
we should make the movement an opposed task as well.  Simply, skill vs. 
skill with maneuver drive rating as a DM.  

Reply:
I like the idea a lot.  A hot pilot could (I think should) be able to evade a 
pursuing enemy even though the enemy had a faster ship.  This is what 
roleplaying games are all about.  The hero (with Pilot-4 and a ship with 
maneuver-2) is jumped by a pirate ship (Pilot-2 and a ship with maneuver-3).  
The hero is Hans Solo and Maverick all rolled into one.  He does some of that 
pilot sh-t and leaves the pirate wondering "where's he gone." I am definitely 
using this in my games.

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:02:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)

        Wes Esser wrote:

>J D Burdick wrote -
>>Subject: Re: Proclamation vs. Constitution
>>
>>I am not an expert in poli-sci but I have noticed two themes in the
>>discussion
>>about the proclamation that started the 3rd Imperium.  The first
>>discussion is
>>about what declaration Cleon I made.  The second discussion is based on the
>>document that laid the foundation for laws (constitution).  I think there
>>were
>>two documents.
>
>At least two documents..  I always figured that the laws of the Imperium were
>more like English Common Law than American Constitutional Law, in that certain
>things are so "because they have always been that way".  This would go a long
>way to explain the hodge-podge of odd government types and seemingly
>incongruous
>institutions that make up the Imperium.


        Naw:  I figure that if they bore a resemblance to anything current
they'd owe more to the Civil law tradition than the Common law tradition.
With a few exceptions, namely corporate law, where currently Canada, New
Zealand, and some U.S. jurisdictions (in no particular order) are leading
the way, the Civil law tradition quite simply makes more sense.  For those
of you that haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about, the Civil law is
rooted in Roman law.  In many cases the Romans had things figured out for
millennia before the Common law got around to dealing with things.

        This doesn't mean that it's *better*; it's just that as an
intellectual construct it is more accessible, rational, logical, and
rigourously analytical.  Both systems, given the same set of facts, will
usually come to similar conclusions; it's just that the process whereby the
Civilian court will arrive at that process is less convoluted.  Sit Jooe
Aaveraage down with a modern (Civilian) civil code and he'll probably be
able to understand most of it.  Very roughly speaking, the common law and
civil law are converging; many civilian  jurisdictions are enacting
civilian takes on trust legislation, and the common law has and is being
influenced by the civil law in many areas.  However, I think that since the
Common law's approach is only due to the idiosyncracies of English history,
the Civil law approach will be more frequently encountered.

        And I also think that it'd be the one most likely to be found in
the Imperium.  The reasons that I say this are that Civil law finds its
source in legislative enactments, often by major codifiers such as the
Emperor Justinian, or Napoleon, and owes nothing to judges.  As well, it's
eminently portable (Have Civil Code, will Travel) and adaptable; it's been
adopted by all Europe save the U.K., parts of North America, most if not
all of South America, the C.I.S., most of Africa, Mao Dynasty Imperial
China <grin>, Japan, Taiwan, and those parts of Asia that weren't colonised
by the Brits.



*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:11:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Trading in T4

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, J D Burdick wrote:

> Living in Germany, I was not able to go to GenCon this year and get a copy of 
> T4.  My two hard cover books, like 2200 others, are still at the printer.  I 
> have been interested in all of the reviews of T4 so far.  However, I haven't 
> seen anything mention about which economics (trading) system T4 uses.  Is it a 
> return to classic Traveller or does it use the MegaTraveller/TNE type system?

Hi,

As noted in each of my reviews, the T4 system uses the Merchant Prince 
system of trade rules.  That is, the goods are of indeterminate nature.  
They are merely marked as to tonnage and what sort of world they come 
from (ie, Lo Ni Po - low tech, non industrial, poor).

I hope this gives you the information you need.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:18:45 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Kinetic Kill Missiles

Moin John Macpherson,

	I reorderd your mail to fit my interest ;-)

> Taking this one step further, why not just fill the warhead with sand
> and polish the target down to a cue ball?

	I realy like the idea of a "make him blind" missile, this
	would be a perfect tactic for a pirate: Make him blind and
	get on board.

> 	Getting a missile close enough to hit a ship with kinetic energy 
> weapons is very difficult because if the target has any trainable weapons 
> (laser turrets) it becomes a trivial problem to shoot down a missile at 
> such a short range that there is essentially no light-lag.

	Hm lets think of a Jayhawk :

	The Jayhawk's extrem EMS range is 8 hexes, a typical missile
	has 8 or 12 G-turns. A pirate shurely can see the Jayhawk
	because of better sensors 12 hexes, he can launch the missiles
	and they can be first seen at 8, at this point the missile
	would be on drift closing the Jayhawk, so the roll would be
	Imposible-3 (Extrem=Imposible, sub-micro -2, coasting -1)
	Even at close range the sensor roll would be Imposible-0,
	as the missile now has the posibility to make evasion.

	So a "SandMan" Missile would make a Jayhawk blind.

> This sounds pretty good, but I have been assured by folks on the Beta 
> list more knowledgable than I that any ship laser could eat dozens of 
> these missiles at such a close range.

	Normaly every missile seen can be destroyed if you have a
	good FireControll, which can ignore Diff-Mod's.
	But you need to make a sensor lock on the missile first,
	and even a Gazelle needs a Formidable sensor lock, because
	a missile is sub micro.

> 	If you start talking about targets that can't maneuver out of the 
> way you confront exactly the same issues as the rock-droppers.  Speaking 
> of rocks, KKMs have at least as much potential for mass destruction as 
> the nuclear det-lasers that some would like to ban for being too dangerous.

	From FFS (114) : "The one area where nuclear warheads are  used
	fairly regularly is on space-based X-Ray laser missiles"

	So IMHO only "mass destruction" is banned, not the kind of
	technologie. Its banned to throw rocks or nukes to a city,
	because both will likely kill more civilians than place
	a direct hit on military point.

> 	So how does one accomodate KKMs into the game?  Give different
> stats for each type of target?  Assume a 4G target, allowing lower accel
> targets to escape with less damage than they deserve and higher accel
> targets with none?  How do you regulate/defend against the mass
> destruction capabilities of KKMs?

	To place I direct hit I would design the following rule :

	The missile MUST have more g-turns left than the number
	of G-Turns spend for evasion by the target. The base
	difficulty is Imposible with the following modifiers :

	Target  : Micro -1, Very Small +0, Small +1, ...
	        : +1 per 2 G-Turns spend in evasion
	Missile : -1 per 2 G-Turns left for the hit, when arived at
	          close range (0 hexes)

> 	If I knew the answers to these questions I would have posted 
> FF&S/BL rules for KKMs a couple of months ago.

	Did you calculated the damage of these KKM's and SandMan's.

> Michael Koehne said: 
> 	You're right.  There's no good reason for ships not to use x-ray
> lasers.  If you want a justification then tuneables are used so that 
> fire into an atmosphere is still possible.

	Hm even ships without CG lifters have tuneable lasers.  

> 	Folks on the TML noticed that too and created the rule that a 
> lasers Discharge Energy can be no greater than TL*50.

	My design limit was that they need to fit in a turret, so
	will be limited by the displacement of the HPG.

	But TL*15 sounds good as a limit, so lets design some X-Ray
	lasers. As the effective range of these lasers is 12 hexes
	for turrets and 15 hexes for barbetts.

	I decided make two versions with different beam pointers.
	The wight and displacement differences are marginal (under
	2m3, 2 tonnes)

	non tuneable, non graph focusing X-Ray laser barbetts :

TL :  Descr. :  MW : Vol:Mass: Damage
13 :  650 Mj :  5.6: 4.5: 107:  7:1/20-64 14:1/20-64 28:1/11-34 56: 1/5-17 
13 :  650 Mj :  5.6: 4.7: 110: 10:1/20-64 20:1/15-48 40: 1/8-24 80: 1/4-12 
14 :  700 Mj :  5.2: 3.8:  89:  7:1/21-66 14:1/21-66 28:1/11-35 56: 1/6-18 
14 :  700 Mj :  5.2: 3.9:  91: 10:1/21-66 20:1/16-50 40: 1/8-25 80: 1/4-12 
15 :  750 Mj :  4.9: 3.2:  75:  7:1/22-68 14:1/22-68 28:1/12-37 56: 1/6-18 
15 :  750 Mj :  4.9: 3.3:  76: 10:1/22-68 20:1/16-51 40: 1/8-26 80: 1/4-13 

	non tuneable, non graph focusing X-Ray laser turrets :

TL :  Descr. :  MW : Vol:Mass: Damage
13 :  450 Mj :  3.8: 3.0:  72:  6:1/17-53 12:1/17-53 24: 1/8-27 48: 1/4-13 
13 :  400 Mj :  3.4: 3.0:  69: 10:1/16-50 20:1/10-30 40: 1/5-15 80: 1/2- 8 
14 :  600 Mj :  4.4: 3.0:  73:  6:1/20-61 12:1/20-61 24:1/10-31 48: 1/5-15 
14 :  570 Mj :  4.2: 3.0:  72: 10:1/19-60 20:1/11-36 40: 1/6-18 80: 1/3- 9 
15 :  750 Mj :  4.9: 2.9:  71:  6:1/22-68 12:1/22-68 24:1/11-34 48: 1/5-17 
15 :  750 Mj :  4.9: 3.0:  72: 10:1/22-68 20:1/13-41 40: 1/7-21 80: 1/3-10 

	They are still very impressive.

	BTW: The 700 Mj barbette of Kinunir displaces 9.8 tonnes, so
	it doesnt fit into a barbett, because the HPG is to large ;-(

	tuneable, graph focusing FUV & EUV laser barbetts :

TL :  Descr. :  MW : Vol:Mass: Damage
14 :  360 Mj : 10.0: 6.0: 155: 10:1/15-47 20:1/15-47 40: 1/9-29 80: 1/5-14 
15 :  425 Mj : 11.8: 6.0: 158: 10:1/16-52 20:1/16-52 40:1/16-52 80:1/16-52 

	tuneable, graph focusing FUV & EUV laser bays :

TL :  Descr. :  MW : Vol:Mass: Damage
14 :  700 Mj : 19.4:11.2: 297: 10:1/21-66 20:1/21-66 40:1/13-40 80: 1/6-20 
15 :  700 Mj : 19.4: 9.8: 259: 10:1/21-66 20:1/21-66 40:1/21-66 80:1/21-66
15 :  750 Mj : 20.8:10.4: 277: 10:1/22-68 20:1/22-68 40:1/22-68 80:1/22-68 

By Michael

PS : Gawk scripts for ship, laser, meson and particle gun design are
     available via email.
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:52:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Nuke Prohibition

Merrick writes

>> >(1) That would result in a virtually unarmed (except for the Imperial
>> >military) interstellar civilization, which is contrary to the
>> >ever-popular 'canon'.  The standard ship's missile is a nuclear weapon,
>> >if we're still using FF&S technology (which I believe we are...).
>This is the case for TNE/FFS.  There has been a lot of work on
>non-nuke missiles but the problem is that at typical traveller
>velocities kinetic energy is nastier than most nukes (and all other
>explosives).

Not to drag out interminable gdw-beta discussions into the harsh light of 
the TML...but I should also note that impact-type missiles are a lot
easier to shoot down than detonation lasers. The net result is that you
end up with large swarms of missiles trying to overwhelm point defense
systems, with the missiles so deadly that a single hit kills a player-sized
spacecraft...a very different flavour than canonical combat. There are a 
couple of design sketches for non-nuclear lasers with more moderate damage
and higher survivability - missiles that throw huge clouds of BBs at very
long detonation ranges, so only a few (tiny) BBs hit but the missile is 
somewhat safer from PD, or missiles that have chemical lasers...but overall
the detonation laser stuff actually makes more physical sense than previous
versions, and produces nice results from a roleplaying standpoint (missiles
are dangerous but not utterly devastating, and a small ship can carry enough
to have some chance of getting through another small ship's point defense.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:47:17 -0700
Subject: re: FFS&BL weapon questions

Michael Koehne raises the following traditional questions:

>        - why doesnt a TL 13+ starship have non tuneable X-Ray 
>          lasers

Good question. The laser designs certainly show a lack of variety; I think
they just plain didn't do any decent lasers...It is somewhat hard to get 
a 80-hex ER laser at TL-13 with x-rays in a normal turret, but not very hard.
Also, x-ray lasers have poor atmospheric performance...but overall it's 
really just an oversite on the parts of the designers.

>        - Why do ships have particle accelerators and meson guns ?
>          Even the small tl15 accelerator displaces 87 tons, enough
>          to have a devasting laser batterie.

TML and gdw-beta players have all adopted the "TL*50" rule to deal with this
very issue: maximum discharge energy for laser weapons is equal to their
tech level times 50 Mj. Otherwise, as you note, there's no need for any
weapons other than ever-bigger lasers. This has become (implicitly) official
in T4. 

>        - The stats for Meson&Paricle Guns seam to be completely
>          wrong when I recalulate them with FFS. 
I think there's a typo or two in the table...the bore sizes, for example.

>      - In BL : the TL 15 Rampart fighter with a good laser
>        and 4 missiles is very effective
It does suffer a little from not having much in the way of sensors. Still, if
you think fighters are the ultimate weapon, go ahead and use them - design a
a carrier and take it up against a comparable conventional warship (one 
should note that most of the conventional designs in BL aren't that 
good - I'd call them heavily underarmoured.)

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:37:42 -0800
Subject: Proposal: Shoe Salesman Character Generation :-)

On 21 Aug 96 at 2:43, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> Eris:
> > Most people are mundane, stay at home, old sticks in the mud,
> > even in the 46th century!
> 
> Of course. Otherwise there would be Shoe-Salesman careers in character
> generation.

Possible Character UPP & Skills for

Al Bundy
UPP: 747563  Age: 40+?  Terms 6-7?

Skills: Carousing-1, Fast Talk-1, Shoe fitting-6, Liver Poisoning-3, 

Although clearly not in evidence in current athleticism, frequently 
claims to have been a winning high school quarterback.  Pratfalls and 
current clumsiness are frequently a part of his life indicating low 
dexterity.  Although adequately educated, frequent stewing of brain 
cells with massive amounts of Old Milwaukee Beer, and frequent trips 
to topless bars have lowered his intelligence and education.  Low 
social standing is an indication of the low esteem in which others 
hold him, including some of his closest acquaintances and family.  

Low number of skills indicates general lack of desire to improve 
himself, or do anything other than stick his hands down his pants, 
and watch GravBowling for Credits holovids.  However, if your looking for 
some size 8 pumps, or size 12 oxfords, Al is your man...

;-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:44:46 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 21 Aug 96 at 9:31, Joe Walsh spewed:

> I've been keeping in touch with the small games stores around here 
> (northern IL), and as of yesterday none had the softcovers.  :(  The 
> comic shops I spoke to won't even be carrying it.  One offered to special 
> order it, the others didn't.

Don't really shop the comics places, so can't say on that.  Of the 5 
stores here that specialize in games, 3 have already committed to 
carrying the stuff...not sure on the others, as I don't go to either 
of them all that much...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:01:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Trading in T4

On 21 Aug 96 at 12:11, Joe Walsh spewed:

> As noted in each of my reviews, the T4 system uses the Merchant Prince 
> system of trade rules.  That is, the goods are of indeterminate nature.  
> They are merely marked as to tonnage and what sort of world they come 
> from (ie, Lo Ni Po - low tech, non industrial, poor).

Just in case you're not familiar with Merchant Prince, this is 
basically the same system used in MT & TNE as well...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:24:00 -0500
Subject: RSSC Proposal 4 | Framework

I was getting confused with all discussion about the parts of RSSC.

I decided to break the RSSC down into its component parts, and lay out my
latest thinking on each of the parts.  What we probably should do is
discuss each part in a seperate thread, and then plug them back together
when we are done.  

The rest of this message is a suggestion for the overall framework.


=================================================================

Pre-Contact Detection Phase - The ship is routinely scanning and
                              may detect another ship.

Once a ship is detected, the detecting ship may enter the combat round. 
This means that if Pirate-Joe detects Trader-Sue, but Sue has not detected
Joe, then Joe may conduct combat against Sue, but Sue may not react until
she detects Joe.
=================================================================

=================================================================
Combat System Framework

I.      Detection 

II.     Initiative

III.    Movement

IV.     Combat for Ship with Initiative
        A.  Weapon Lock Attempt
        B.  Weapon To Hit Resolution
        C.  Damage Resolution and Allocation

V.      Combat for Ship without Initiative
        A.  Weapon Lock Attempt
        B.  Weapon To Hit Resolution
        C.  Damage Resolution and Allocation
=================================================================        

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 11:53:30 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 08/21/96 at 09:31 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

>> The softcover has hit the stores here today, and I picked 1 up...

>I've been keeping in touch with the small games stores around here 
>(northern IL), and as of yesterday none had the softcovers.  :(  The 
>comic shops I spoke to won't even be carrying it.  One offered to special 
>order it, the others didn't.

I checked here (Pensacola FL) again late yesterday calling a game store and
a comics shop.  (I've called the game store every day since the 15th.  <g>)
Neither had it, both say they *will* have it. The guy at the comics shop
called his distributer to check and called me back, saying that Traveller
hasn't been released yet, and won't be until the end of the month.  I
didn't argue with him, why kick the messenger even if his news is wrong.

Stuart, I'm glad *somebody* got the book.  Where are you located? Maybe we
can track the distribution pattern. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 21 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 339

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RSSC: Simple Space Combat
         2. Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document
         3. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         4. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         5. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative
         6. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement
         7. Re: T4 availability
         8. Re: T4 availability
         9. Sending to lists and revised reprint.
        10. Planet III Old Frontiers Sector
        11. Found some old Traveller stuff, etc.
        12. Re:  RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
        13. Re: T4 availability
        14. Re: Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document
        15. Re: Found some old Traveller stuff, etc.
        16. Re: T4 availability
        17. Re: T4 availability
        18. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
        19. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 11:05:28 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Simple Space Combat

On 08/21/96 at 08:40 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>> I think Joe and I are talking *really* small actions, 2 or maybe at most 
>> ships, and non-warships at that.  I wouldn't count on many ships having
>> spinal mounts, foex.  <g> I *do* like the idea of facing having an effect
>> on where damage is done though. 

>I don't mind including facing, but not in the basic RSSC rules.  It can 
>be in the advanced section, with black globes and whatnot.

Sounds like a plan! Add options and stir. <g>

I agree let's get a simple system first and then add enhancements.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil (Will Richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:51:33 -0400
Subject: Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document

 I was wondering how or when the Imperial warent can into existant.
perhaps it is stated in The Imperial Establishing Document by a simple line...

"All worlds are free to govern them selves.......
However, all worlds and individuals must heed, obey and assist our(the
emperor and all his successors) duly appointed represenitives."

        This would mean that the warrent is a simple document reminding the
reader that the individual who owns the document is to be treated as if he
where the emperor, and must be assisted in any way. If the holder of the
warent is to be limeted to certain activities then note of this can be made
in the doccument itself.

 This would also open a door for Imposters/duplicates to pose for the
emperor on his day off or vaction to the core sector.  ;)


Thoughts?
   Will Richards






------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:39:55 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

=============================================================
SENSORS Part One:  Detection

If the Other Ship is using Active Sensors add it's Active Sensor Rating as
a plus DM.

Use the Other Ship's size is a plus DM.


Range           Task (Active or Passive + Sensor Skill + DM's)
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Contact         Easy
Short           Easy
Effective       Easy
Long            Average
Extreme         Difficult
Out of Range    Formidable
No Contact      Impossible

=============================================================

    [This is when you are trying to just detect a ship.]

    [If a ship is using Active sensors then it should be much easier to
pick up.  These sensors are rated from 0 up, and for most smaller ship
designs I've seen are under 10.]

    [The ship's size should come into play, and ships are rated by size
from 0 up.]

    [Obviously, using your own Active or Passive Sensors should give you an
advantage in detecting the other ship.  From the sample ship designs I've
seen posted these numbers are all in the 0 to 16 range, with civilan ships
usually between 0 and 3.]

    [I actually think the sum is going to end up too low for the Task
difficulties I've used, and that relates to my request for suggestions
below.]
    
    ***Something I'm not sure of here, I suspect Active sensors do a better
job of detecting a ship than Passive sensors.  I'd like to give using
Active sensors an advantage in detecting, but also make it more likely that
YOU will be detected.  I went with Active OR Passive for now, but I'm not
happy with it.  So I'm open for suggestions.***

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:34:15 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

=============================================================
RANGE  (from Derek Wildstar)

No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
Extreme Range   - In range of band 4 weapons.
Long Range      - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
Effective Range - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
Short Range     - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.
=============================================================

    [This fits with the ships everyone will have from T4.  It also means
that civil type weapons won't come into play until Effective or more often
Short range.]

    [It includes one more thing that I really want, the ability to sense
(sight) a ship well before it gets into firing range.  Foex: I want my
players to have time to try talking to that pirate ship, have him lie to
them, for them to suspect it's a lie and worry about it for a bit, all
while the two ships come closer together and before the pirate can actually
start firing on them.]

Eris    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:45:38 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative

=============================================================

INITIATIVE

If both ships are detected or in combat:

    Winner of:  (Leader+1d6)  vs  (Leader+1d6)
    
A ship that has detected another and is still undetected
Automatically has the Initiative.

=============================================================

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 14:57:14 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement

=============================================================

MOVEMENT
  Movement Tasks
     Evade    - move one range away from the other ship
     Maintain - stay at the same range from the other ship
     Close    - move one range closer to the other ship
    
1.  Player without Initiative states Movement Task for this round,
    if this player has Detected the opposing ship.  If this player
    has failed to Detect the opposing ship, she may take no action.

2. Player with Initiative states Movement Task for this round.

3a. If both choose the same task it automatically succeeds.
    Both choose Evade - ships move one range apart
    Both choose Maintain - ships maintain current range
    Both choose Close - ships move one range closer
    
3b. If tasks don't match then there is a contest to see which
    succeeds.
    
Winner of:  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)  vs  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)
=============================================================

    [I figured that if both sides what to do the same thing then, simply
let them.  <g> OTOH, if they what to do different things then they should
compete.]

    [Why this formula?  Pilot is the basic skill of flying the ship.
Tactics is the skill of maximizing you chances of getting an advantage in a
combat situation.  Together they could easily sum up to >20 points, so just
adding 1 to 6 (the MDrive number) won't do! Using the MDrive number as the
number of dice to roll gives an average 3.5 point advantage per number
difference, and won't really start offsetting a skill advantage until the
difference gets to 3 or 4. It also adds some unpredictability due to the
random nature of rolling the dice.]


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar pantomimed:

> Don't really shop the comics places, so can't say on that.  Of the 5 
> stores here that specialize in games, 3 have already committed to 
> carrying the stuff...not sure on the others, as I don't go to either 
> of them all that much...

Just goes to show that, despite its proximity to Lake Geneva, Northestern 
Illinois is pretty much devoid of quality games stores.  

BTW, I went up to Lake Geneva last weekend for their annual faire, and 
was surprised to find that the local phone directory listed abstolutely 
no game stores.  Under "Games, Retail" it had only TSR (which, unless 
they have a company store at their facility, was rather strange).  

Almost like going to Silicon Valley and finding no computer resellers...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:31:41 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 availability

Greetings, fellow Travellers!

I'm new to the TML, but not to Traveller. I've been playing the game and exploring the 
game universe since '78 or so. I've skipped around a lot between lots and lots of 
various game systems, but always did I come back to Traveller.

I was heartbroken to see GDW go out of business, since Traveller: The New Era and the 
Reformation Coalition/Star Viking background excited me like no other RPG has in the 
last ten years. I'm sorry to see the RC laid by the wayside by IG, but I hope they will 
revisit the RC soon.

Enough introductory and whining for one post; on to commentary!

Clint Fishback wrote:
> 
> The hobby store I used hadn't heard anything from distributors about
> Traveller's release.  I asked him the other week if he knew when they
> might be getting it and he said hadn't heard any promo or
> solicitations for it.  Don't know if they'll get it or not.  Guess
> there's always mail order.
> 
> Clint


Clint, my local store got a Imperium Games flyer back in mid-July. He knew I was deep 
into TNE and looking foreward to anything with _Traveller_ written on it, so he showed 
it to me. I then badgered, annoyed, vexed and harrassed the poor store owner here in the 
armpit of California's Central Valley to order it for prerelease, and I _kept after him_ 
like a pouncer after bleeding game until he got it. After I did, I thanked him and 
promised to buy the forthcoming supplements from him.

That way, he gets a loyal customer, and I get my Traveller goodies <grin>.


First impressions: it is what Marc Miller promised -- return to classic Traveller with 
the benefit of 20 years' experience. The character creation system is about what I 
expected. Aging every five years instead of every term will take getting used to, 
though. Skills -- the variable dice version of the task system seems to work...but there 
were no task difficulties listed for normal starship operations. The combat system works 
well, even if the weapons list is a little short for my taste (I'm into 
military/mercenary adventures). Equipment -- They give us AFVs but no _anti-tank_ 
weaponery! Ships -- I wasn't surprized that IG tossed out the HEPlaR drive for high-trch 
ships . . . the QSDS is very nice indeed. I wish more time had been spent on explaining 
what a starship crew _does_ during a journey! Rest of the Book: What I expected, more or 
less. The art was STUNNING, the color pieces had me asking "What _is_ this 
thing/ship/whatever supposed to be?" all the time!

I'm looking forward to the Year Zero background books, but pining away for the return of 
the Reformation Coalition.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:34:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sending to lists and revised reprint.

Hi all.  I have a couple of questions, one stupid and one (relatively)
intelligent:

1) First the dumb question:  when I send to the list, should I respond
"yes" to "reply to all recipients?", or will this give everyone two
copies?  I was just wondering whether non-digest subscribers get my
message if I don't "reply to all recipients".

2) Now a slightly smarter one:  does anyone know if there's going to be a
revised reprint of the new Traveller rules?  I don't mean a new edition,
which we've heard is at least 2 years off, but rather a slightly corrected
second print batch (I believe TNE had one or two of these).

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Russell H Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:34:53 -0400
Subject: Planet III Old Frontiers Sector

Does anyone have a copy of Planet III's Old Frontiers sector for their
Traveller Navigator?  Planet III is no longer supporting Traveller
Navigator.  I have the Diaspora Sector but waited until too late to see
about ordering the Old Frontiers.   Actually, I'm not sure if the Old
Frontiers sector was ever released; but if it was, I'd sure like to get my
hands on a copy...

Also, I'd love to get a copy of the computer game "The Zhodani Conspiracy"
if anyone has a copy they'd part with.


------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Found some old Traveller stuff, etc.

Hello,

        I was wandering through Bushman's Games and Comics (Streetsville,
Ontario) today and noticed that they have several copies of the
MegaTraveller Digest and the Traveller Digest.  Also, lots of TNE material.
Unfortunately, the owners of the store are oblivious to T4 even coming out
(the guy told me that 'the company that produced Traveller has gone
under..." - Oh, really? <g>), so I wouldn't expect much of that stuff.
However, the prices on the CT, MT and TNE material is good, and some of it
(like the digests) are hard to find, so I thought I'd let people know.
        Also, one little question.  In another store I found two CT books
which were soft-covered, yet the same size as The Traveller Book.  ONe was
called 'The Rules Book' or something, and the other I can't remeber.  They
were both, as I said softcovered, and were definitely CT.  Anyone know what
these are?  Are they rare, or worth getting if you have the little black
books aready?

Thanks,

Peter Miller


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:03:27 -0700
Subject: Re:  RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

Advice: use the same labels (Long/Medium/Short/Very Short) that the existing
combat system does or you'll confuse *everyone*. Ranges would be 
No Contact, Out of Range, Extreme Range, Long Range, Effective Range, 
Short Range, and Contact.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:56:25 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 availability

At 01:31 pm 8/21/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings, fellow Travellers!
>I'm looking forward to the Year Zero background books, but pining away for
the return of 
>the Reformation Coalition.

        Don't pine ... visit my Web site. More coming soon (%^$&^%$ exams).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:56:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document

At 03:51 pm 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
> I was wondering how or when the Imperial warent can into existant.
>perhaps it is stated in The Imperial Establishing Document by a simple line...

        Per Adventure 1, "Kinunir," it was created by "Imperial Edict 97,"
so it wasn't in the establishing document. The library data entry on the
Imperial Warrant implies but doesn't state that the edict was issued by
Strephon. MegaTraveller Library Data doesn't have the same implication, but
does state that Dukes and Archdukes could also issue them.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:56:29 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Found some old Traveller stuff, etc.

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> Hello,
> 
>         I was wandering through Bushman's Games and Comics (Streetsville,
> Ontario) today and noticed that they have several copies of the
> MegaTraveller Digest and the Traveller Digest.  Also, lots of TNE material.
> Unfortunately, the owners of the store are oblivious to T4 even coming out
> (the guy told me that 'the company that produced Traveller has gone
> under..." - Oh, really? <g>), so I wouldn't expect much of that stuff.
> However, the prices on the CT, MT and TNE material is good, and some of it
> (like the digests) are hard to find, so I thought I'd let people know.
>         Also, one little question.  In another store I found two CT books
> which were soft-covered, yet the same size as The Traveller Book.  ONe was
> called 'The Rules Book' or something, and the other I can't remeber.  They
> were both, as I said softcovered, and were definitely CT.  Anyone know what
> these are?  Are they rare, or worth getting if you have the little black
> books aready?

	Those two books are the rules from the Traveller STarter Edition 
- - a boxed set that came out about concurrently with the Traveller Book.  
They contain about the same info as the Traveller Book, if I recall 
correctly.  I don't think that they are all that rare, my local bookstore 
has 3-4 copies.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:25:22 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 availability

> 
> Don't really shop the comics places, so can't say on that.  Of the 5 
> stores here that specialize in games, 3 have already committed to 
> carrying the stuff...not sure on the others, as I don't go to either 
> of them all that much...

I got mine at Wargeames West today :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:38:13 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 availability

At 03:40 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Eris wrote:

>On 08/21/96 at 09:31 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
>
>>On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>
>>> The softcover has hit the stores here today, and I picked 1 up...
>
>>I've been keeping in touch with the small games stores around here 
>>(northern IL), and as of yesterday none had the softcovers.  :(  The 
>>comic shops I spoke to won't even be carrying it.  One offered to special 
>>order it, the others didn't.
>
>I checked here (Pensacola FL) again late yesterday calling a game store and
>a comics shop.  (I've called the game store every day since the 15th.  <g>)
>Neither had it, both say they *will* have it. The guy at the comics shop
>called his distributer to check and called me back, saying that Traveller
>hasn't been released yet, and won't be until the end of the month.  I
>didn't argue with him, why kick the messenger even if his news is wrong.
>
>Stuart, I'm glad *somebody* got the book.  Where are you located? Maybe we
>can track the distribution pattern. <g>

Well, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, and my softcover showed up on
Tuesday the 20th... keep the faith!

What was great was *how* the staff at Gamescape told me that T4 was in.  The
had grown used to my daily visits, all of which started with them shout
"NO!" before I could even ask if it was in.  Yesterday, I returned home from
a day with my niece, checked my voice mail, and heard all of them yell "YES!!"

You gotta love good games stores.


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:01:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> =============================================================
> SENSORS Part One:  Detection
> 
> If the Other Ship is using Active Sensors add it's Active Sensor Rating as
> a plus DM.

If a ship uses active sensors, it should automatically be detected by any 
ships within range.  All that energy radiating out in an effort to 
detect.....

> Use the Other Ship's size is a plus DM.
> 
> 
> Range           Task (Active or Passive + Sensor Skill + DM's)
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Contact         Easy
> Short           Easy
> Effective       Easy
> Long            Average
> Extreme         Difficult
> Out of Range    Formidable
> No Contact      Impossible
> 
> =============================================================
> 

Hmm.  Perhaps we could use one of the range sets from T4?  Perhaps the 
ground combat ranges:  Contact, V.Short, Short, Medium, Long, V.Long

Would that be acceptable?

Please note that, in T4, "Easy" tasks are automatically accomplished 
by anyone with skill level 1 or greater (1.5D for level-0 skill use, if 
allowed for that skill).  Also note that there is a task rating between 
Formidable and Impossible, called Staggering.

>     [This is when you are trying to just detect a ship.]
> 
>     [If a ship is using Active sensors then it should be much easier to
> pick up.  These sensors are rated from 0 up, and for most smaller ship
> designs I've seen are under 10.]

See above.

> 
>     [The ship's size should come into play, and ships are rated by size
> from 0 up.]

You're right, size should definitely come into play.

> 
>     [Obviously, using your own Active or Passive Sensors should give you an
> advantage in detecting the other ship.  From the sample ship designs I've
> seen posted these numbers are all in the 0 to 16 range, with civilan ships
> usually between 0 and 3.]

Active and passive sensors, given the same rating value, will have the 
same chance of detecting another ship.  If you look at the Standard 
Sensor Designs from QSDS, you'll see that, at the highest levels, ships 
tend to have very high active sensor ratings vs. passive.  For example, 
Medium Military at TL 12 has a rating of: A16 P5 J16, meaning an Active 
rating of 16, Passive of 5, and Jamming of 16.  

Therefore, I feel that simply using the values as DM's will do the trick.
If you have, for example, the above sensors intalled, sure you can easily 
detect somethin by going Active, but you'll also reveal yourself to every 
ship within range. Or, you can use passive sensors, take a lower chance 
of success, and hope no one else is successful at scanning you.

If you're jamming, then that value should be a negative DM if we are 
going with your system.


>     [I actually think the sum is going to end up too low for the Task
> difficulties I've used, and that relates to my request for suggestions
> below.]
>     
>     ***Something I'm not sure of here, I suspect Active sensors do a better
> job of detecting a ship than Passive sensors.  I'd like to give using
> Active sensors an advantage in detecting, but also make it more likely that
> YOU will be detected.  I went with Active OR Passive for now, but I'm not
> happy with it.  So I'm open for suggestions.***

See above.



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:06:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> =============================================================
> RANGE  (from Derek Wildstar)
> 
> No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
> Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
> Extreme Range   - In range of band 4 weapons.
> Long Range      - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
> Effective Range - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
> Short Range     - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
> Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.
> =============================================================
> 
>     [This fits with the ships everyone will have from T4.  It also means
> that civil type weapons won't come into play until Effective or more often
> Short range.]

Sounds fine.

>     [It includes one more thing that I really want, the ability to sense
> (sight) a ship well before it gets into firing range.  Foex: I want my
> players to have time to try talking to that pirate ship, have him lie to
> them, for them to suspect it's a lie and worry about it for a bit, all
> while the two ships come closer together and before the pirate can actually
> start firing on them.]

Works for me.

But, I would like to change the range names to:

 =============================================================
 RANGE  (from Derek Wildstar)
 
 No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
 Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
 Long            - In range of band 4 weapons.
 Medium          - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
 Short           - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
 V. Short        - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
 Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.
 =============================================================

This will jibe with Ground Combat better, and also includes the subset 
that is from the T4 space combat (v. short, short, medium, long).

I think there will be less confusion that way.  Any time we can avoid 
making people learn something new, we should take it IMO.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 22 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 340

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement
         2. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative
         3. The Establishing Declaration
         4. RSSC Proposal 4, Reply
         5. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         6. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement
         7. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         8. Re: Imperial Warents [sic] and the Establishing Document
         9. Harn-L list
        10. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
        11. Warrants
        12. Re: KKMs
        13. Re: T4 availability
        14. Re: T4 availability
        15. IG Web Page
        16. One Thought on the Enabling Document...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:07:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> MOVEMENT
>   Movement Tasks
>      Evade    - move one range away from the other ship
>      Maintain - stay at the same range from the other ship
>      Close    - move one range closer to the other ship
>     
> 1.  Player without Initiative states Movement Task for this round,
>     if this player has Detected the opposing ship.  If this player
>     has failed to Detect the opposing ship, she may take no action.
> 
> 2. Player with Initiative states Movement Task for this round.
> 
> 3a. If both choose the same task it automatically succeeds.
>     Both choose Evade - ships move one range apart
>     Both choose Maintain - ships maintain current range
>     Both choose Close - ships move one range closer
>     
> 3b. If tasks don't match then there is a contest to see which
>     succeeds.
>     
> Winner of:  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)  vs  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)
> =============================================================

That all sounds fine to me.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 20:08:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> =============================================================
> 
> INITIATIVE
> 
> If both ships are detected or in combat:
> 
>     Winner of:  (Leader+1d6)  vs  (Leader+1d6)
>     
> A ship that has detected another and is still undetected
> Automatically has the Initiative.
> 
> =============================================================

Makes sense.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:19:11 -0700
Subject: The Establishing Declaration

To his highness, Cleon Zhanastu of Sylea, and the lords of the Moot in assembly.

>From Mosaic Tapestry, Baron of Park, and the core-spinward fringe of
recovered humainity.

With our daughter receive our regret at having been delayed in our arrival
in assembly.  The battle here has gone well thanks to the starships of new
design you have provided.

Please consider our thoughts on the pending declaration of our combined
intention to reform the Empire of Man. (1)  We hope and expect to be in
assembly with you when the great moment is at hand.

We agree that the declaration should stem from a "spontaneous" movement of
the lords.  The proposal know as the "Oath of Sylea" comes closest to our
intentions. Matters of constitution are best left for another day when we
can deliberate at length.  We must act know in a way that will legitimize
our current actions and perhaps preclude the kind of violent action upon
which we are currently embarked in your name.

Yours in service, loyalty and honor from the depths of our heart and being;

MT, Baron of Park.

Recommended reading for this month:
_The Death of Common Sense_ by Philip Howard; Warner Books; $10.99


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:49:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RSSC Proposal 4, Reply

Eris' Proposal 4, while offering good Initiative and Movement rules, 
generates target numbers that are too large when it comes to tasks 
relying on the Range table's # of dice to roll (Detection right now, and 
undoubtedly Attack Reslution if it follows the same format).

The class of ship this system is meant to be used for will have a size of 
about 8 (100 to 999 tons), Active sensors of 0-10, Passive of 2-4, and 
Jamming of 0-4.

Add in skills, M-drive rating, etc., and you come up with a target number 
it is quite easy to achieve even at the "Formidable" difficulty level.

I think this system we are developing should handle any of the basic 
ships - any ship in the T4 rulebook, and quite a few of those in the 
upcoming Starships book (which will include the Corsair, some more 
fighters, etc.).  

The T4 rule book includes the 200-ton Patrol Cruiser, with scanners of:
A10 P4 J4.  It also includes the 300-ton Mercenary Cruiser, with scanners 
of: A10 P4 J10.  Although most other ships in the T4 book have ratings in 
the 0-3 range for each, I think it is important that we consider such ships 
as the Mercenary Cruiser and Patrol Cruiser when developing the RSSC 
system.

The sticking places (ie, sources of large numbers) are Size and Sensors.  
We can either ignore those factors (yuck!), change them (double yuck!, 
but T4 does this, believe it or not), or deal with them.  I think we 
should deal with them.

The way I envision it, RSSC will heavily rely on skills for success.  
But, we also have to factor in equipment ratings, and a random factor.  

I wanted to go with a "contested tasks" rule, but those same factors keep 
messing it up.  Let me show you what I have, and perhaps someone else 
will come up with a way to handle those factors better than I have:


Contested Tasks (Proposed Rule):

Each individual makes a task roll, using the basic T4 rules.  That is, 
add the skill and relevant characteristic, and add appropriate DMs to 
determine the target number.  The number of dice to roll is based on 
difficulty, which in our case is, in turn, based on range.

Here's how it plays out:

One succeeds, one fails:  The one who succeeds gets to do what s/he 
                          wanted to do.

Both Win:  Whichever player's roll is furthest from his target number wins.

Both Fail:  Whichever player's roll is closest to her target number wins.


This way, there are no re-rolls, and no times when nothing happens 
(unless, of course, that is what the winner wanted).

I think this system is more exciting, because both players participate, 
each character gets to contribute his or her skill, and it keeps the 
action moving.

The problem, of course, comes in the DM's, which is the problem Eris is 
running into.  

(Sigh)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)





------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:55:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

> IV.     Combat for Ship with Initiative
>         A.  Weapon Lock Attempt
>         B.  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>         C.  Damage Resolution and Allocation
A.  Weapon Lock Attempt (Deleted)

	[This phase is unnecessary, as this is achieved by Detecting the 
ship.  If it is detected, or is running Active sensors, then the weapons 
lock has been achieved.  Otherwise, it is impossible to fire on the ship.]

[The below assumes the defending ship is within effective range of the 
weapon to be used, of course.]

[T4 uses the defender's Size Rating as the target number.  Unfortunately, 
this number is too big to be a good DM, as it is from 5 to 12 (most often 
at this level of battle, it will be 8, as that covers ship in the size 
100-999 ton range).  So, we can either:

1)  Use Size as the target
2)  Discard Size
3)  Come up with another, different Size Rating (some sort of conversion 
chart, perhaps, or use the number in the hundreds column of the tons 
displacement, since this system is meant for use with ships that are small).

Although it is perhaps unrealistic, I favor discarding the size rating 
altogether for this system.  If that isn't a popular decision, then I'd 
prefer option 1 to option 3.  The last resort, IMO, would be option 3.  
The system laid out below assumes using option 2.]

[Fire Control Ratings are another DM in the T4 system.  They range from 0 
to 6, but are most often 0 for ships such as Traders (almost all T4 basic 
rule book ships have ratings of 0).  The Mercenary Cruiser, for example, 
has a rating of 2.  We can dump this, too, but perhaps it would be wise 
to include it as a DM.]

============================================================================
IV.  Combat for Ship with Initiative

A)  Weapon To Hit Resolution

	Target Number:  Gunnery skill
	                + Fire Control Rating
                        + Target's Size Rating
                        - Target's G Rating
                        - Target's Pilot or Tactics Skill
                           (Whichever is higher)

	# of Dice to Roll based on Range (q.v.)


B.  Damage Resolution and Allocation

	Resolution:  [Is this where defenses are subtracted?]

	Allocation:  Subtract the value from the weapon rating from Armor 
(if any) first, then from Structure.  Once Structure is at 0, the ship is 
destroyed.  Each Armor hit results in a roll on the Surface Explosion 
Table (T4, p. 120).  Each Structure hit results in a roll on the Interior 
Explosion Table (T4, p. 120).  Hits that take away the last of the Armor 
and then do damage to Structure get one roll on each table.  Meson Gun 
hits only roll on the Interior Explosion table.  
        [This is all from T4.]
==========================================================================

I still think the numbers generated in the To Hit section are too big.  
 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)





------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 21:27:19 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Movement

On 08/21/96 at 08:07 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> MOVEMENT
>>   Movement Tasks
>>      Evade    - move one range away from the other ship
>>      Maintain - stay at the same range from the other ship
>>      Close    - move one range closer to the other ship
>>     
>> 1.  Player without Initiative states Movement Task for this round,
>>     if this player has Detected the opposing ship.  If this player
>>     has failed to Detect the opposing ship, she may take no action.
>> 
>> 2. Player with Initiative states Movement Task for this round.
>> 
>> 3a. If both choose the same task it automatically succeeds.
>>     Both choose Evade - ships move one range apart
>>     Both choose Maintain - ships maintain current range
>>     Both choose Close - ships move one range closer
>>     
>> 3b. If tasks don't match then there is a contest to see which
>>     succeeds.
>>     
>> Winner of:  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)  vs  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)
>> =============================================================

>That all sounds fine to me.

Ok, we've got two parts nailed down:

Initiative          -  agreement
Movement            -  agreement
Detection           -  almost agreed to
Sensor vs Jammers   -  we have several competing ideas here
Gunnery Task        -  we haven't really started yet
Damage Resolution   -  we haven't really started yet

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 21:20:30 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

On 08/21/96 at 08:01 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> =============================================================
>> SENSORS Part One:  Detection

>If a ship uses active sensors, it should automatically be detected by any 
>ships within range.  All that energy radiating out in an effort to 
>detect.....

[Ok, I'm willing to go with that.  That was my first inclination anyway.]

Agreed to Rule:  Any ship using active sensors is automatically
                 detected by all ships within sensor range.

Agreed to Rule:  Use the Other Ship's size is a plus DM.
 
 
>> Range           Task (Active or Passive + Sensor Skill + DM's)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> Contact         Easy
>> Short           Easy
>> Effective       Easy
>> Long            Average
>> Extreme         Difficult
>> Out of Range    Formidable
>> No Contact      Impossible
>> 
>> =============================================================
 
>Hmm.  Perhaps we could use one of the range sets from T4?  Perhaps the 
>ground combat ranges:  Contact, V.Short, Short, Medium, Long, V.Long

>Would that be acceptable?

Somebody else suggested that too.  I'm not tied to range names, but the
ones used in the ship combat in the T4 book would be more appropriate than
the ground combat range names, and we need to be consistent all across the
parts of RSSC.  

Range Name    Weapons bearing       Sensor Task
- --------------------------------------------------
Contact     Boarding, no weapons    Easy
Very Short  1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
Short       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
Medium      3 & 4 band weapons      Average
Long        band 4 weapons only     Difficult
Very Long   out of range            Formidible
No Contact  out of range            really impossible!

[For sensor task I'm leaning toward the idea William's progressive rolls
triggered, or the progressive rolls themselves.  I really like have the
variable quality to the lock it gives.]

>Please note that, in T4, "Easy" tasks are automatically accomplished  by
>anyone with skill level 1 or greater (1.5D for level-0 skill use, if 
>allowed for that skill).  Also note that there is a task rating between 
>Formidable and Impossible, called Staggering.

I know, I purposely did it that way.  I thought those Easys would draw some
comments.  I want ships to have a pretty good chance of *detecting* another
ship even at Very Long Range.  This is *just* detecting, not weapon locks. 
At No Contact a sensor detect is *really* impossible.

You have to detect the presence of a ship before you can even think about
shooting at it.  I'd say you can "fire blind", but to have a *prayer* of a
chance you have to at least have detected the other ship's presence.  The
next step is trying to improve on simple detection to some kind of
"location solution", or "lock".

>>     [Obviously, using your own Active or Passive Sensors should give you 
>> advantage in detecting the other ship.  From the sample ship designs I've
>> seen posted these numbers are all in the 0 to 16 range, with civilan ship
>> usually between 0 and 3.]

>Active and passive sensors, given the same rating value, will have the 
>same chance of detecting another ship.  If you look at the Standard 
>Sensor Designs from QSDS, you'll see that, at the highest levels, ships 
>tend to have very high active sensor ratings vs. passive.  For example, 
>Medium Military at TL 12 has a rating of: A16 P5 J16, meaning an Active 
>rating of 16, Passive of 5, and Jamming of 16.  

>Therefore, I feel that simply using the values as DM's will do the trick.
>If you have, for example, the above sensors intalled, sure you can easily 
>detect somethin by going Active, but you'll also reveal yourself to every 
>ship within range. Or, you can use passive sensors, take a lower chance 
>of success, and hope no one else is successful at scanning you.

Ok, I don't know if it's that way in the real world, but it's that way in
the game so that's the way we'll go too.

>If you're jamming, then that value should be a negative DM if we are 
>going with your system.

Take a hard look at my post concerning William's progressive roll and the
simple alternative I proposed.  It handles the sensor vs jammer situation
and let's us finess ranges for sensors.  Range will still have to be used
in the Gunnery Task, but our goal is simplify and this idea does that.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:15:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Imperial Warents [sic] and the Establishing Document

On Aug 21, 1996 17:56:23, '"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>' wrote: 
 
>At 03:51 pm 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote: 
>> I was wondering how or when the Imperial warent can into existant. 
>>perhaps it is stated in The Imperial Establishing Document by a simple  
>line... 
> 
>Per Adventure 1, "Kinunir," it was created by "Imperial Edict 97," 
>so it wasn't in the establishing document. The library data entry on the 
>Imperial Warrant implies but doesn't state that the edict was issued by 
>Strephon. 
 
I'm not sure what balck hole my copy of "Kinunir" fell down, but 
Supplement 8:Library Data (A-M) contains no such implication (about 
Strephon). 
 
In any case, the word "warrant" may apply to more than 
the "Imperial Warrant" as we know it. According to my dictionary, 
the word can mean: "1a) authorization or sanction, as by a  
superior or the law". 
 
My suggestion to MM for the name of the document was the 
"Warrant of Restoration", as Cleon "authorizes" the restoration 
of Imperial (read: his) authority over Vilani and Solomani territories. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:15:31 GMT
Subject: Harn-L list

On Aug 19, 1996 18:15:09, '"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>' wrote: 
 
>I am also on the Harn-L list, 
 
Where is this list, and how do I subscribe? 
 
And does the "-L" signify anything in particular? 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 22:18:56 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

On 08/21/96 at 08:06 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>But, I would like to change the range names to:

> =============================================================
> RANGE  (from Derek Wildstar)
> 
> No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
> Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
> Long            - In range of band 4 weapons.
> Medium          - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
> Short           - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
> V. Short        - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
> Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.
> =============================================================

>This will jibe with Ground Combat better, and also includes the subset 
>that is from the T4 space combat (v. short, short, medium, long).

>I think there will be less confusion that way.  Any time we can avoid 
>making people learn something new, we should take it IMO.

Ok, fine with me.  I'd already agreed, got your message about
Detection before I saw this one.  <g> I just what it to match up with what
T4 is calling things so we don't confuse people.

There is a difference creeping in though, do we go with "Very Long" or "Out
of Range"?  They can mean the same thing, but we should be consistent.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:49:28 -0800
Subject: Warrants

The actual establishing document for Imperial Warrants is Edict 97; 3097
passes this power on to Dukes and Archdukes, with limited durations and
scope. (MT Imp Encyclopedia, pp27 & 28, etries "Imperial Edict 97" and
"Imperial Warrant"

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:51:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: KKMs

 
Michael Koehne said: 
> Moin John Macpherson,

> > This sounds pretty good, but I have been assured by folks on the Beta 
> > list more knowledgable than I that any ship laser could eat dozens of 
> > these missiles at such a close range.
> 
> 	Normaly every missile seen can be destroyed if you have a
> 	good FireControll, which can ignore Diff-Mod's.
> 	But you need to make a sensor lock on the missile first,
> 	and even a Gazelle needs a Formidable sensor lock, because
> 	a missile is sub micro.

	True.  Sometimes I forget that not everyone has participated in 
the massive "Brilliant Lances Done Right" discussions on the beta list.  
Since KKMs must get much closer to the target than even a det-laser, we 
had assumed that with a fairly decent sensor array (SR4) that a KKM 
should be automatically detected.  The example you give is not even the 
worst one.  If you use a heplar-powered missile with EMM and decoy 
dispensors the target becomes Impossible+1 to detect.  Because of this, 
and the fact that a missiles exhaust would be very visible at sub-hex 
ranges, we made the "auto-detect" rule.
	If you're interested in this subject, you might want to check out 
David Golden's page, I believe he has the latest edition of the beta-list 
rules compiled by Merrick.
 
 
> > 	So how does one accomodate KKMs into the game?  Give different
> > stats for each type of target?  Assume a 4G target, allowing lower accel
> > targets to escape with less damage than they deserve and higher accel
> > targets with none?  How do you regulate/defend against the mass
> > destruction capabilities of KKMs?
> 
> 	To place I direct hit I would design the following rule :
> 
> 	The missile MUST have more g-turns left than the number
> 	of G-Turns spend for evasion by the target. The base
> 	difficulty is Imposible with the following modifiers :
<snip>
	This is very close to what the beta-list came up with.  The 
problem though is not the to-hit task.  The problem is dealing with all 
of the aspects of to-hit, range, and damage which vary with the 
situation.  Again, a BB missile that will obliterate a 1G 100Td target or 
a 6G 100,000Td target could be ineffective against a 4G 500Td target.  
Making simple rules for this sort of thing is very tough.  I may still 
try, but I gave up once and I may again.

> 	Did you calculated the damage of these KKM's and SandMan's.

	I didn't do the sand missile but I made a few BB missiles.  See 
above for the problems with them.
 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:58:02 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 21 Aug 96 at 17:38, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> You gotta love good games stores.

Yup, sounds like they know ya pretty well...

Perhaps too well... ;-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:02:34 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 21 Aug 96 at 11:53, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> Stuart, I'm glad *somebody* got the book.  Where are you located? Maybe we
> can track the distribution pattern. <g>

Phoenix, AZ.  I inquired initially at 1 store, but bought it at one 
closer to home...  Both said that they shipped from the distributor 
last Friday, and they apparently arrived on Tuesday...

Picked mine up on Tuesday afternoon...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:16:37 -0800
Subject: IG Web Page

For those who might not have checked it out already...

Imperium Games website now has an errata page for T4.  Most of the 
stuff are things already pointed out by Joe Walsh and others...

Nice to see they jumped on this.  I can understand that an errata 
page is a mixed blessing for a publisher, but I think they will 
benefit from their forthrightness about the game and its very few 
shortcomings...  

I'm still reading my book...  Soon as I finish it (Probably tomorrow 
sometime), I'll post my thoughts on it.

1 thing I will tell you right away:  They've done a superb job of 
putting together a book that is very pleasing to the eye.  Less of 
the annoying sidebars, lots of interior illustrations (with captions 
even), and the artwork by Chris Foss is absolutely breathtaking...  Ken 
or Marc, I'm not sure whose idea it was to commission Chris for 
artwork, but it was a GREAT decision!

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:27:54 -0800
Subject: One Thought on the Enabling Document...

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the Restoration 
Proclamation is going to be more a rallying cry/proclamation of 
principles, than any sort of legal document.

1 more thought on those who would burden this document with rules of 
war/imperial warrants/definition of sophonts and other hair-splits:

Most of us seem to be looking at the Imperium of Cleon I as though it 
were the Empire of Strephon...  NOTHING could be farther from the 
case...  The Empire of Cleon at Year 0 numbered maybe a couple of 
dozen systems, all within about 3-4 weeks travel of each other, while 
that of Strephon, spanned 11,000 systems, all withing about 3-4 years 
travel of each other.  The Empire of Cleon was on the rise.  The 
nobility would have the sense of purpose (manifest destiny) in year 0 
that is lacking in the later years of empire.

Finally, The sheer smallness of the Imperium in the early years is 
going to allow Cleon to have a measure of direct control that 
Strephon could never have dreamed of or imagined.  The Imperium is an 
authoritarian trade federation.  In the early years, I suspect that 
the key word is AUTHORITARIAN.  

In a situation where Cleon could get messages to the far extent of his 
empire in a couple of weeks, he is going to be able to exercise a lot more 
direct control than his successors.  There is therefore no reason he would 
want to tie his hands with minutiae.  In fact, since he is going to be fighting 
wars, subverting/absorbing rival governments, etc, he's going to avoid them 
like the plague, so as to avoid tying his hands...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #340
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 22 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 341

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 availability
         2. re: RSSC
         3. Comments about T4
         4. Re: Programs in the Digests
         5. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         6. Re: T4 availability
         7. re: RSSC
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #339
         9. RSSC: Jamming After Sensor Lock??
        10. Re: Re: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)
        11. Re: Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)
        12. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
        13. Found some old Traveller stuff, etc. -Reply
        14. Re: RSSC: Jamming After Sensor Lock??
        15. Re: Harn-L list
        16. Re: IG Web Page
        17. Re: Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)
        18. RC is still alive.
        19. Reality outruns fiction, again!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:31:40 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 21 Aug 96 at 15:30, Joe Walsh spewed:

> BTW, I went up to Lake Geneva last weekend for their annual faire, and 
> was surprised to find that the local phone directory listed abstolutely 
> no game stores.  Under "Games, Retail" it had only TSR (which, unless 
> they have a company store at their facility, was rather strange).  
> 
> Almost like going to Silicon Valley and finding no computer resellers...

Of course, there are dozens of computer companies in Silicon Valley, 
there are only a couple of game companies in Lake Geneva...

How big is Lake Geneva, anyways???  I was realizing that I have zero 
feel for the place...having never been within 500 miles of 
Wisconsin...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 08:36 +0100
Subject: re: RSSC

I like the direction that the RSSC discussion is going.  Since I haven't 
received my hardback copies yet...(sad face), I haven't joined in on the 
discussion.  However, I would like to make a suggest on the product or outcome 
of the discussion.  For the RSSC to meet the original intent--a really simple 
ship combat--the final product should be a single page with either/both 
flowchart or tables.

The actual rules and explanations for the RSSC could be on several pages. A 
normal rulebook, but a single page with all charts, flowchart, and/or tables 
would be great.

JD
Twolf
                           

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Comments about T4

Well, T4 has arrived in Portland OR-

I like it!  The art is unusual, but interesting.  The new ship designs are
odd, and I think I like the old designs earlier. However, it makes much
since, I sincerely hope that ship designs would have changed in the 1104
years between the founding of the Imperium and the CT era. 

A question:

How much to grav vehicles cost?  On pp 83-86 there are 3 specific models
of grav vehicle described:  The Rolen Ploitesse, the Iliant Lion, and the
Mylin Ranger.  They cost 50,000 Cr, 30,000 Cr and 40,000 Cr.  All but the
Lion are high speed (600-900 kph) the Lion is for some reason limited to
120 kph, even with 3 gees of acceleration, but hey, maybe it's open
topped. 

OK, great, sensibly priced, interesting, grav vehicles.  Now we turn to
the main text where the air raft is limited to 100 kph and costs 600,000
Cr, and the G carrier costs 100,000 Cr and has no listed top speed. 

Clearly one of these sets of data is a misprint.  I prefer the stats for 
the intersting, detailed grav vehicles, rather than the same old 
air-raft, but someone should clarify this one.

As for rules, I love the char gen system, the new aging rules make much
more sense.  I wish they added a -1 to aging rolls for say TL 11+, but
hey, its easy to add.  I also like the new large numbers of skills, though
they did overpower the Scout a bit.  As a minor change I'd make Scout 1
skill/year + 1/term and make this true of all non-ranked professions (ie
Entertainer, Rouge and Scholar).  hey, I really *like* playing Scouts, but
they get 3 rand and service skills, extra skills a term and the change of
+2 on INT and EDU on mustering out, this seems like a too bit much. 

I don't like the new task system, because like TNE stats are much more
important than skills.  I'd much have preferred Stat/2 or Stat/3 + Skill. 
I'll likely use the MT task system (Stat/5+ Skill vs 3+, 7+ 11+.. on 2D6)
grafted on the the new skills and such. 

My only major disappointment is the Psi system because I hate Psi 
points.  The psi system was the *only* thing I liked about TNE.  The best 
thing about that Psi system is being able to import the system from
the Dark Conspiracy Empathic Sourcebook:

In the Imperium they train Psionics, a few folks whose psionic training 
consists of a high Psi stat and taking lots of Pis drugs become Neuropaths,
and folks on odd, isolated (usually low-tech) worlds know Mysticism (this 
throws folks off really well).  Best to drop Sorcery though, it doesn't fit.

Soon I'll post the Andre Norton derived Traveller Psi system I've 
been working on.

Other than a few complaints I love it.

Other Comments?

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 19:58:42 
Subject: Re: Programs in the Digests

Hello Michael, on Aug 17 you wrote:

>   Sorry I did'nt know that, the FAQ only stated that long articles
>   should be marked "LONG", what I had done.
>
  OK, I have added an extra clarification to the FAQ. I hope it makes things
clearer. Thanks for marking it as LONG though.


James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:59:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> There is a difference creeping in though, do we go with "Very Long" or "Out
> of Range"?  They can mean the same thing, but we should be consistent.

You're right.  It should be "Very Long," since it /is/ possible to use 
sensors and communicators at that range. (Ergo, they are not truly "out 
of range" of anything but weapons.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:11:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Of course, there are dozens of computer companies in Silicon Valley, 
> there are only a couple of game companies in Lake Geneva...

True...

> How big is Lake Geneva, anyways???  I was realizing that I have zero 
> feel for the place...having never been within 500 miles of 
> Wisconsin...

It's not a one-horse town, but it's not too big either.  Having only been 
there once, and not knowing which other town I could compare it to that 
you'd be familiar with, I'm at a loss! :)  Uh...bigger than a bread box? :)

We did drive around quite a bit (okay, we got lost[G]), and it seemed to 
be about the size of the town in CA I came from.  And that town had a 
games store... :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:12:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: re: RSSC

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, J D Burdick wrote:

> The actual rules and explanations for the RSSC could be on several pages. A 
> normal rulebook, but a single page with all charts, flowchart, and/or tables 
> would be great.

I agree!  'Course, that's what IG has in T4, too. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:18:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #339

Charles,

>From what I heard in email from IG, there will indeed be a corrected
printing released sometime.

Don't quote me on this, as I may have misinterpreted an email I got from IG
on the subject.  (Actually, I was asking whether the printing delay had
anything to do with fixes; it doesn't.)


Everyone; go see Trainspotting.  Off topic perhaps, but worthy of being
said nonetheless.



------------------------------

From: "Garriss J ACC/DR (Mitre)" <garrissj@HQACCDR7.LANGLEY.af.mil>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 08:24:00 +6
Subject: RSSC: Jamming After Sensor Lock??

For those of you keeping score at home, here's a summary of a portion of   
the attack phase of RSSC.

 ------------

3 Attack Phase

    3.1 Ship with the highest Initiative attempts to attack.
 
  3.1.1 Attempt Sensor/Weapons Lock - Once a sensor lock has been   
achieved, it can be maintained unless circumstances drastically change   
(such as the pirate ducking behind an asteroid).
  
   3.1.1.1 If target is actively scanning, then the attacking ship can   
sense target and lock on automatically.
          

   3.1.1.2 If target is passively scanning, then the attacking ship must   
make a task roll based on range:  Sensor Ops, DM + Sensor Rating.
   
   3.1.1.3 If target is jamming, then the attacking ship must make an   
opposed task roll: (SensorSkill+SensorFactor+?Die?)  vs   
(SensorSkill+JamFactor+?Die?)

 ---------------

Question:  Suppose shipA suceeds in acquiring sensor lock on shipB during   
turn1.  If shipB decides to begin jamming during turn2, does shipA have   
to attempt to re-establish the sensor lock, or does shipA automatically   
maintain the sensor lock?  

The following binary file has been uuencoded to ensure successful
transmission.  Use UUDECODE to extract.

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`
end

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Aug 1996 08:56:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)

>I like the idea [of opposing tasks] a lot.  A hot pilot could (I think
should) be able to evade a 
>pursuing enemy even though the enemy had a faster ship.  This is what 
>roleplaying games are all about.  The hero (with Pilot-4 and a ship with 
>maneuver-2) is jumped by a pirate ship (Pilot-2 and a ship with maneuver-3).
 
>The hero is Hans Solo and Maverick all rolled into one.  He does some of
that 
>pilot sh-t and leaves the pirate wondering "where's he gone." I am
definitely 
>using this in my games.

I like the idea of opposing tasks for maneuver, but not this far.  At least,
not in clear space.  There is no way a pilot with a 1G ship can stop a pilot
with a 2G ship overhauling him, no matter how good he is.

Now, if the fight takes place in orbit, through a ring, or in similar
circumstances where 'terrain' can be used for concealment or where superior
skill makes a difference, I'll agree with you.
z

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Aug 1996 09:18:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Year 0 Politics (was Founding Document)

>Naw:  I figure that if they bore a resemblance to anything current
>they'd owe more to the Civil law tradition than the Common law tradition.

[snip]

I agree with everything you said.

There's another reason for using a civil-law tradition: it's _not_ what's
used in America, therefore it will seem 'different & exotic' to a large
gaming market.  I don't know how much of the T4 market will be teenagers, but
my colleagues south of the border tell me that most schools teach very little
history except American history and no law except American law. I know up
here we do a horrible job of teaching Asian history (nothing except where it
impinges on the West) and so I have impressed the non-Asian kids with my
detailed societies just by 'lifting' elements from China, Vietnam and Burma.

As well, the tendency in Ct/MT for the Imperium to begin to resemble 20th
century North America in attitude/outlook/law will be held off for a bit. 
(This was a trend that HIWG writers noticed.  We figured it was caused by
many writers individually incorporating 'throwaway' references, based on a
familiar setting, that were taken by other writers as 'canon', as well as a
few writers (names withheld) who seemed to be incapable of writing with
characters that weren't 20th century American males in their native setting.)


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:52:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >Hmm.  Perhaps we could use one of the range sets from T4?  Perhaps the 
> >ground combat ranges:  Contact, V.Short, Short, Medium, Long, V.Long
> 
> >Would that be acceptable?
> 
> Somebody else suggested that too.  I'm not tied to range names, but the
> ones used in the ship combat in the T4 book would be more appropriate than
> the ground combat range names, and we need to be consistent all across the
> parts of RSSC.  

T4 Space combat uses a subset of the Ground Combat ranges - only four of 
them.  Since you wanted more range bands than that, I figured extending 
it to the Ground Combat ranges made sense.  No incompatability, we're 
just using the same superset of the Space Combat ranges that the Ground 
Combat section uses.


> Range Name    Weapons bearing       Sensor Task
> --------------------------------------------------
> Contact     Boarding, no weapons    Easy
> Very Short  1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
> Short       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
> Medium      3 & 4 band weapons      Average
> Long        band 4 weapons only     Difficult
> Very Long   out of range            Formidible
> No Contact  out of range            really impossible!

Looks good.

> [For sensor task I'm leaning toward the idea William's progressive rolls
> triggered, or the progressive rolls themselves.  I really like have the
> variable quality to the lock it gives.]
> 

> I know, I purposely did it that way.  I thought those Easys would draw some
> comments.  I want ships to have a pretty good chance of *detecting* another
> ship even at Very Long Range.  This is *just* detecting, not weapon locks. 
> At No Contact a sensor detect is *really* impossible.

Ah, so we're separating out detection and weapon lock, eh?  Ok.

> You have to detect the presence of a ship before you can even think about
> shooting at it.  I'd say you can "fire blind", but to have a *prayer* of a
> chance you have to at least have detected the other ship's presence.  The
> next step is trying to improve on simple detection to some kind of
> "location solution", or "lock".

Gotcha.


> Take a hard look at my post concerning William's progressive roll and the
> simple alternative I proposed.  It handles the sensor vs jammer situation
> and let's us finess ranges for sensors.  Range will still have to be used
> in the Gunnery Task, but our goal is simplify and this idea does that.

I did, and I noted my concern - the wide ranges of values we'll be 
dealing with.  As long as you're comfortable with that, though . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:58:24 -0400
Subject: Found some old Traveller stuff, etc. -Reply

>        Also, one little question.  In another store I found two CT books
>which were soft-covered, yet the same size as The Traveller Book. 
>ONe was called 'The Rules Book' or something, and the other I can't
>remeber.  They were both, as I said softcovered, and were definitely
>CT.  Anyone know what these are?  Are they rare, or worth getting if
>you have the little black books aready?

GDW began printing CT that way toward the end of the CT era. You got a
Rules booklet and a Charts and Tables booklet. Generally, it came as part
of the "Starter Traveller" set (which also came with two adventures,
printed back-to-back, Shadows and Mission on Mithril), but they also
began printing Deluxe Traveller that way as well (I have both sets). In
fact, that is the only copy of CT that I have: I never got a copy of the three
little black books. I've never seen the books, however, outside of the
boxed sets they were supposed to come with. I doubt they're supposed
to be sold that way.

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:22:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Jamming After Sensor Lock??

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Garriss J ACC/DR (Mitre) wrote:

> 
> Question:  Suppose shipA suceeds in acquiring sensor lock on shipB during   
> turn1.  If shipB decides to begin jamming during turn2, does shipA have   
> to attempt to re-establish the sensor lock, or does shipA automatically   
> maintain the sensor lock?  

ShipB will have to complete an opposed task of some sort to attempt 
jamming.  In effect, he will be trying his sensor skill and sensor 
jamming rating against ShipA's sensor skill and sensor (active/passive) 
rating (plus some random factor).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:27:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Harn-L list

At 02:34 AM 8/22/96 -0400, John Brogan wrote:

>On Aug 19, 1996 18:15:09, '"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>' wrote: 
> 
>>I am also on the Harn-L list, 
> 
>Where is this list, and how do I subscribe? 

Harn-L is a discussion list, similar to the TML, devoted to Columbia Games'
Harn and HarnMaster.  The threads go as deeply into folklore and medieval
economics as we do about Imperial sucession and rock dropping.  N. Robin
Crosby, Harns designer, is a regular, as are many of CG's editors, etc.

To subscribe:  send mail to LISTSERV@MITVMAN.MIT.EDU  with a blank subject
line and the following message  Subscribe <your name>
> 
>And does the "-L" signify anything in particular? 

Some lists have them, some don't, go figure.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:39:14 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: IG Web Page

> I'm still reading my book...  Soon as I finish it (Probably tomorrow 
> sometime), I'll post my thoughts on it.
 
Yeah, I will as soon as I absorb it all, too.

> 1 thing I will tell you right away:  They've done a superb job of 
> putting together a book that is very pleasing to the eye.  Less of 
> the annoying sidebars, lots of interior illustrations (with captions 
> even), and the artwork by Chris Foss is absolutely breathtaking...  Ken 
> or Marc, I'm not sure whose idea it was to commission Chris for 
> artwork, but it was a GREAT decision!

Yeah, it looks good.  Great job, guys.  Now I have to design all the
cool Foss ships in there :-)  Thanks for the straightforward fonts,
too.  The inside is elegant looking for no other reason than a
restrained font and consistant headers.  (I have to say I always
liked the design of the little black books, too)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:56:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial Matters (Td V96#334)

On 20 Aug 96 at 17:13, Derek Wildstar spewed:

> > > But the power of the Moot to reject an heir to the Iridium Throne 
> > > should not be taken lightly. For a hereditary monarch there's 
> > 
> > Actually it should...  The Moot NEVER denied the succession of a 
> > legitimate heir to the throne.
> 
> Here's a thought for you, borrowed from 20th century Earth history.  Perhaps
> the Moot was created with fairly broad powers to approve the sucession, veto
> Imperial legislation, and other "supervisory" roles ... but the Emperor
> persuaded them to abdicate this power entirely.
> 
> How?
> 
> Simple.  The Emperor has the power the ennoble anyone; I'm sure he could
> find enough people to support him that he could "water down" the moot with
> nobles.  If he can convince the existing nobles of the Moot that he's
> serious about doing so, then it's quite possible that the Moot would
> abandon it's powers without having to be so watered down (the Nobility would
> much rather be a less-powerful debating society than see the Emperor elevate
> commoners - oh, the horror - COMMONERS into the Moot).
> 
> It worked for King Edward, didn't it?

Actually, there are some American precedents for this as well.  The 
US Supreme Court, which currently consists of 9 members, is not 
constitutionally or legally specified to have any particular number 
of justices.  There have been several instances in which Presidents 
have tried to "stuff" the Supreme Court with a bunch of handpicked 
nominee...  most recently, FDR in the late 30's...  Between adding 
your own members, and placing a few grumblers under house arrest (or 
spacing them) it would be easy to arrange...

I still don't think that you want to put too much specific language 
on the powers of the Moot into this document.  Too much could call 
question on the legitimacy of any number of emperors who came 
later...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 13:44:27 -0400
Subject: RC is still alive.

>I'm looking forward to the Year Zero background books, but pining away
for the >return of 
>the Reformation Coalition.

>- --Rich Ostorero

Hi,
A bunch of us on the TML like the RC and are still creating stuff for
it.  A long article on Helios was just released two days ago. (Email me
for a copy if it was released before you signed onto the TML.) The next
planet we are doing is Phoebus. (Its a Sci-Fi game, and we start off
detaling the TL-4 and TL-3 planet in the  RC, go figure) 

If you have stuff you have created on the RC, we would all love to see
it. Or just offer suggestions on the stuff everyone else puts out.

Lewis

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:17:01 MST7
Subject: Reality outruns fiction, again!

This was in today's paper.  I think the Trav implications are pretty 
obvious.  I'd never thought of human powered computers.

"RENTON, Wash. (AP) - Think computers, only smaller.

So small you could swallow one or wear one in your long johns. So
smart they'd fade into the background and you'd notice only the
information you were getting, not where it was coming from.

That's the hope - and the promise - of wearable computers, the next
phase in the personal computing revolution, embodied in the
eye-catching array of devices displayed this week at a conference
sponsored by the Boeing Co.

Already, the Army has a computer the size of a pill that could be
swallowed to track the core body temperatures of soldiers on training
missions. A pager-sized alarm would alert the commanding officer that
a recruit was about to go into hypothermia.

Intelligent long johns

In San Diego, the Navy is building a ``sensate liner'' - an
intelligent set of long johns woven from conductive polymers that
would tell medics what was wrong with a wounded soldier and how soon
they should get there.

``It can tell the difference between a high-speed round and a bayonet
and, using reflective microscopy, it can tell if the soldier is
bleeding, and if it's a vein or an artery depending on the oxygen
content,'' said Eric Lind of the Naval Command Control and Ocean
Surveillance Center.

Although military applications were a major topic at the Boeing
Wearable Computers Workshop, civilian uses were also very much in
evidence.

Thad Starner of the vaunted Media Lab at the Massachusetts Institute
of Technology was one of several wired individuals wandering the hall.
His plastic lab glasses held a Private Eye, a tiny screen that hung in
front of his right eye like a jeweler's loupe, allowing him to read
off the laptop computer slung over his shoulder.

He was careful not to glance up at the screen when talking, but every
once in a while during a lull in the conversation, he discreetly
consulted his private information servant, which displays notes,
background information and his latest e-mail via a radio link to the
Internet.

Whenever he heard something interesting, he pulled his oval, hand-held
input device - called a Twidler - off the side of the computer, where
it's attached by Velcro, and took notes using a chordal system, in
which each letter of the alphabet is formed by pressing on several
keys.

Already, inspectors at an Air Force F-16 squadron in Ohio now call up
manuals and airplane schematics using a head-mounted computer screen
and voice-activated software, rather than consulting printed manuals.

And Marines are conducting vehicle inspections with the use of
wearable computer systems. Previously, two mechanics had to walk
around with clipboards, checking off more than 600 items. Now it takes
only one person and 40 percent less time using voice-recognition
software that allows the mechanic to check items off merely by saying
them aloud.

At MIT, researchers envision a world where the computer a person is
wearing would interact with its environment, plucking information out
of the air for its master's use. Scientists have already set up visual
tags throughout the lab that broadcast information to whomever looks
at them through a wearable lens.

``Water me''

``We have a plant in our lab which doesn't get watered
appropriately,'' Starner said. ``A sensor on the plant notes when it
is watered and sends a message to the room computer. A month later,
the plant can send the message `I need to be watered' and it would be
uploaded to the system so that anyone looking at the plant would see a
little note that says, `Water me!' ''

At the University of Washington in Seattle, researchers are building
retinal scanning displays that would get rid of the need for
head-mounted screens entirely. Users would instead wear a little
projector just below the eye.

The projector would use an extremely low-power laser to paint a
picture one pixel at a time on the retina, at the back of the eye, in
much the same way a cathode ray tube paints and repaints the image on
a TV screen.

How to supply power to these wearable computer systems is still being
worked out. Batteries are heavy and need to be frequently replaced or
recharged.

At MIT, scientists are investigating the possibility of computers
powered by the human body. The military calls it ``energy
harvesting.''

For example, a band strapped across the torso could use the movement
of the chest in breathing to produce enough energy to run a low-power
computer. Another possibility is an electrical system that would
enable a person to produce a charge simply by walking. "


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #341
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 23 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 342

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Comments about T4
         2. Re: T4 availability
         3. Re: T4 Availability
         4. A Grumble-Free Post
         5. Re: Comments about T4
         6. Re: Comments about T4
         7. Re: Comments about T4
         8. StarShip Troopers
         9. RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
        10. Re: StarShip Troopers
        11. Re: Comments about T4
        12. Re: Reality outruns fiction, again!
        13. Re: Imperial Warents [sic] and the Establishing Document
        14. Trainspotting Traveller
        15. Foss Ships
        16. Re: Planet III Old Frontiers Sector
        17. Re: Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:36:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> Well, T4 has arrived in Portland OR-
> 
> I like it!  The art is unusual, but interesting.  The new ship designs are
> odd, and I think I like the old designs earlier. However, it makes much
> since, I sincerely hope that ship designs would have changed in the 1104
> years between the founding of the Imperium and the CT era.

Yep, the art is stunning. We've come a long from William Kieth's line drawings, eh? I 
like the storylines linking some of the series of B&W drawings found in the book, and 
the Foss color art evoked a real sense of wonder. I kept asking myself: "What *is* this 
thing? Who made it? What does it do?" 

The ship designs are okay; just what I would expect from a product called "Traveller." I 
agree that designs would certainly evolve over the span of 1100+ years.

> 
> A question:
> 
> How much to grav vehicles cost?  On pp 83-86 there are 3 specific models
> of grav vehicle described:  The Rolen Ploitesse, the Iliant Lion, and the
> Mylin Ranger.  They cost 50,000 Cr, 30,000 Cr and 40,000 Cr.  All but the
> Lion are high speed (600-900 kph) the Lion is for some reason limited to
> 120 kph, even with 3 gees of acceleration, but hey, maybe it's open
> topped.
> 
> OK, great, sensibly priced, interesting, grav vehicles.  Now we turn to
> the main text where the air raft is limited to 100 kph and costs 600,000
> Cr, and the G carrier costs 100,000 Cr and has no listed top speed.
> 
> Clearly one of these sets of data is a misprint.  I prefer the stats for
> the intersting, detailed grav vehicles, rather than the same old
> air-raft, but someone should clarify this one.

Didn't notice this one . . . but there are similar discrepancies between the text and 
tables. Notice the Magnum Revolver text said it did 10 damage? More than a laser rifle! 
I reported this one to the IG Errata Patrol. Good on IG for posting the errata on their 
page.

> 
> As for rules, I love the char gen system, the new aging rules make much
> more sense.  I wish they added a -1 to aging rolls for say TL 11+, but
> hey, its easy to add.  I also like the new large numbers of skills, though
> they did overpower the Scout a bit.  As a minor change I'd make Scout 1
> skill/year + 1/term and make this true of all non-ranked professions (ie
> Entertainer, Rouge and Scholar).  hey, I really *like* playing Scouts, but
> they get 3 rand and service skills, extra skills a term and the change of
> +2 on INT and EDU on mustering out, this seems like a too bit much.

I'd add the age-roll DM at a higher tech level, but I'm pretty much in agreement with 
you. Yep, the Scouts are a little buffed, but the surviv, er, *injury* roll is 
relatively hard.


> 
> I don't like the new task system, because like TNE stats are much more
> important than skills.  I'd much have preferred Stat/2 or Stat/3 + Skill.
> I'll likely use the MT task system (Stat/5+ Skill vs 3+, 7+ 11+.. on 2D6)
> grafted on the the new skills and such.

I happened to like TNE's task system -- a matter of taste, I think. I'll settle for the 
one IG gave us.
> 
> My only major disappointment is the Psi system because I hate Psi
> points.  The psi system was the *only* thing I liked about TNE.  The best
> thing about that Psi system is being able to import the system from
> the Dark Conspiracy Empathic Sourcebook:
> 
> In the Imperium they train Psionics, a few folks whose psionic training
> consists of a high Psi stat and taking lots of Pis drugs become Neuropaths,
> and folks on odd, isolated (usually low-tech) worlds know Mysticism (this
> throws folks off really well).  Best to drop Sorcery though, it doesn't fit.

I didn't import the DC stuff for my TNE game, and I didn't run any adventures with psi. 
PCs who wanted psi had to _work_ for it:)

> 
> Soon I'll post the Andre Norton derived Traveller Psi system I've
> been working on.

I'm looking forward to it:)


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:15:15 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 availability

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
 
> Well, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, and my softcover showed up on
> Tuesday the 20th... keep the faith!

That seems to be a by-word these days for us Traveller fans.

> 
> What was great was *how* the staff at Gamescape told me that T4 was in.  The
> had grown used to my daily visits, all of which started with them shout
> "NO!" before I could even ask if it was in.  Yesterday, I returned home from
> a day with my niece, checked my voice mail, and heard all of them yell "YES!!"

Same here in Lodi. I have a very good rapport with my local store, the Comics Grapevine. 
He gave me pretty much the same 'rap' as the fellows at Gamescape gave you.

> 
> You gotta love good games stores.

Especially these days, when any new RPG faces an uphill struggle. I know that Traveller 
isn't exactly new, but to the masses, it _appears_ to be a new product.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

     I talked with the folks at IG today.  The hardbound should return to
them by the end of this week/early next week and sent.  So, you should expect
to see your hardcovers in 10-14 days.  Evidently, the printer made some sort
of "graphical" error (?omission of table???) but there was no further
clarification, but at least the folks at IG took the effort to note and to
repair that gaffe.
     In addition, the softcovers were somewhat delayed as well.  I can't see
a pattern yet, but the Compleat Strategist chain out here in the East just
received the softcovers today 8/22/96 and are shipping it out to their chains
this evening.  So for those in NY, PA, and Boston, you should see it anytime
from Friday to Monday.
     If anyone has Arcane magazine, an excellent British RPG publication,
their September 10 issue features the first review of T4, I haven't seen it,
but would be interested in it.  Considering the full color cover, they
probably liked it.
     Speaking of full-color, has anyone seen the newest printing for the Star
Wars RPG???   Only one word.... WOW.  The error-free color gloss hardcover is
impressive.  IG take note, this is the current standard of production.
 Grognards beware, don't laugh... glitz sells (just look at the collectible
card games).
      Later... avoid excessive downloading today, I understand some timed
virus exists for 8/22/96.
                 Charles

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:19:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A Grumble-Free Post

A Grumble-Free (and Content-Free?) Post
 
 
I've done several versions of my review of the T4 product, as many of you 
know.  However, I never felt free to fully explore the game system (I 
wanted to give TMLers a taste of it, not ruin their experience of 
exploring a new game system).  Nor did I feel free to give anything but 
an objective opinion (or as close to that as I am capable of giving).  
 
Now that the reviews are all done, and more people have T4, I'd like to 
engage in a little subjective . . . what's the word . . . well, almost 
gloating! :)
 
I'm so happy to see that more people now own the T4 rules set!  It's 
great that more and more of us are gaining this common frame of 
reference.  The discussions should become much more lively now that more 
people can be included.  I can't wait to see what we (individually, in 
groups, and collectively) come up with, based on this new set of rules!
 
Another good, recent event is the inclusion of the T4 Errata on the IG 
web page.  After going through and making the changes noted therein (and 
one other which was addressed in a brief email exchange with Matt 
Machtan), I'm now well on my way to a perfect T4 rule set.  :)   I hope 
that, once the errata is complete, IG will arrange it with distributors 
and game shops so that an errata sheet is included with every copy of T4 
sold.  Might as well get purchasers off on the right foot and show them 
that IG cares.
 
I also want to join with the other owners of T4 in saying that this is 
truly a great rule set.  While it isn't perfect for everyone, I feel it 
is a solid basis from which to grow a game system that will offer options 
that appeal to each style of gaming.  Truly and honestly, T4 adheres to 
the vision of Marc Miller, as given here and elsewhere.  
 
It is definitely to IG's credit that they stayed true to the vision Marc, 
Ken, Don, and others have shared with us.  I cannot ask anything more of 
a company than to do exactly what they told us they would do.  After all, 
how many companies can honestly say the same thing?
 
All of this makes me even more impatient for the upcoming supplements.  
Personally, I'm waiting most impatiently for the Central Supply Catalog 
and the Starships Supplement.  The Milieu books are important, certainly, 
but CSC and Starships are the two that make my mouth water. <G>
 
Here's to Marc Miller and Imperium Games, Inc., for putting out the best 
and most exciting Traveller edition I've ever seen: May it sell more 
copies than any RPG before or since!
 
 
- -Joe
 
P.S.  No, I'm still not selling my collection of CT items.  :P

P.P.S.  Whew!  Now that I've gotten THAT out of my system . . . <G>

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:03:21 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

 
>Yep, the art is stunning. We've come a long from William Kieth's line drawings, eh? I 

I like those line drawings!  Actually, I prefer them to a lot of the
B&W work in T4.  It's not bad mind you, but I can take it or leave
it myself.

> the Foss color art evoked a real sense of wonder. I kept asking myself: "What *is* this 
> thing? Who made it? What does it do?" 
 
True, I wanna do some of those ships soon :-)

> The ship designs are okay; just what I would expect from a product called "Traveller." I 
> agree that designs would certainly evolve over the span of 1100+ years.

The ATV is just plain dumb, though.  Mag wheels?  No clearance in
front?  Duh!

And the lab ship drawing is goofy too.  It looks streamlined, and
the loop part has no function.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:15:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> OK, great, sensibly priced, interesting, grav vehicles.  Now we turn to
> the main text where the air raft is limited to 100 kph and costs 600,000
> Cr, and the G carrier costs 100,000 Cr and has no listed top speed. 

Hmmm.  I'll bet the Air-Raft costs 6,000 Cr.  Just a guess, but that's 
the only logical cost I can come up with considering the 600,000 MUSt be 
a typo, and considering the costs of other vehicles.  

We'll see what IG says...


> As for rules, I love the char gen system, the new aging rules make much
> more sense.  I wish they added a -1 to aging rolls for say TL 11+, but
> hey, its easy to add.  

Personally, I'm going to assume the aging rules are for TL 12, and use 
DM's for TL's significantly above and below that.


> Other than a few complaints I love it.

Glad to hear it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:07:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> >Yep, the art is stunning. We've come a long from William Kieth's line drawings, eh? I 
> 
> I like those line drawings!  Actually, I prefer them to a lot of the
> B&W work in T4.  It's not bad mind you, but I can take it or leave
> it myself.

I like both the old and the new B&W artwork.  Of course, I've attached a 
lot more memories and nostalgic feeling to Kieth's work, so I still favor 
it.

I'm glad they chose to keep some B&W stuff in the new book.


> The ATV is just plain dumb, though.  Mag wheels?  No clearance in
> front?  Duh!

The ATV struck me as a strange design as well.  It looks like some sort 
of a sports car, rather than a rugged all terrain vehicle.  But, I guess 
that at TL 11-12 they no longer require the rugged look in order for 
something to /be/ rugged. :)

> And the lab ship drawing is goofy too.  It looks streamlined, and
> the loop part has no function.

Uhmmm....maybe the loop part is a way to radiate excess energy? :)

As I said before, I'll be using the old ship designs in my game.  So what 
if they haven't changed in 1100 years? :)  I now have enough invested in 
TNE ship miniatures that I'd rather not buy a whole new collection of them.  

Then again, that could change if RAFM comes out with a new line that 
looks good.  Lord knows I'm prone to buying just about anything with the 
Traveller name on it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:44:04 -0700
Subject: StarShip Troopers

Howdy all.

Just finished watching tonights episode of Entertainment Tonight.  They 
had a bit piece on Starship Troopers.

Director: Paul Verhoven
Star: Some unknown guy
His buddy:  Gary Buseies (?) son, looks a lot like pop.
and some other dude from Melrose Place.

Costumes look okay, Dark Blue Ridged body armor.  Big hefty Bulpup 
rifles, Weird red Captian Planet shooting squares on armor.  Nasty 
looking drop ships.  No sign of drop capsules though.  Although lets face 
it thats a special effect shot so I'm not expecting to see that till 
January or May.  No sign of the bugs yet either, more Special Effects.

Projected budget.

$100,000,000.  Thats one-hundred Million for those of you to shocked by 
the sight of that many zero's in a single figure.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

I want to walk through what's going on with a TO HIT task.  Remember we're
talking ridiculously simple here so let's not add every little nuance we
can think of.  <g>

We want to sum:

Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task (-4 to 16)
Size of Target DM               (8 or 9)
Fire Control DM                 (0 to 4)
Gunnery Asset                   (1 to ??, expect around 10)

  Anything else?

We could get very big numbers on the margin, (16 + 9 + 4 + 10) = 39

However we could also subtract some things:

Defending Ships Movement        (1 to 6)
Defending Pilot's Asset         (1 to ??, around 10?)
What else?
  There was a computer program in CT that assisted in Evasion,
  probably by randomly jinking the ship.  That should give you a DM
  of 2 to 6.
  
Anyway, let's look at a couple of examples.

Civilian Systems

Range       Difficulty  Dice
- -----------------------------
Very Short  Average     2d
Short       Difficult   2.5d
Medium      Formidable  3d   <--[Personally, I'd make these 2] Long       
Staggering  3.5d <--[tasks one level more difficult]
                                [but we want to stay within the]
                                [rules as much as possible]
    
        Patrol Cruiser  vs  Far Trader
Size:         8                 8
Active:      10                 0
Passive:      4                 0
Jamming:      2                 0
FireCtrl:     4                 0
MDrive:       4                 2
Sensor Skl:  10                10  [I made the skills exactly] Gunner Skl: 
10                10  [the same just to keep things] Pilot Skl:   10               
10  [fair. Try varying skl levels]


Cruiser uses Passive

    Cruiser Attempts TO HIT  (4+8+4+10)-(2+10) = 14

    Range   Chance to Hit        
    -----------------------------------
    Long        73% <--if Impossible then 56%  
    Medium      91% <--if Staggering then 73%
    Short      100% <--if Formidable then 91%
    Very Short 100%
    
Cruiser uses Passive  and Trader uses +2DM Evade program

    Cruiser Attempts to hit (4+8+4+10)-(2+2+10) = 12
    
    Range   Chance to Hit
    -------------------------
    Long        34%
    Medium      50%
    Short       74%
    Very Short  91%
    
Cruiser uses Active  and Trader uses +2DM Evade program
        
    Sensor DM = (10 + 10) - (0 + 10)  = 10

    Cruiser Attempts to hit (10+8+4+10)-(2+2+10) = 18
    
    Range   Chance to Hit
    ---------------------------
    Long        90%
    Medium      98%
    Short      100%
    Very Short 100%

Trader tries to attack Cruiser +2DM Evade program. The Cruiser can't jam
because the Trader isn't using active sensors.
        
    Sensor DM = (0 + 10) - (0 + 10)  = 0

    Trader Attempts to hit (0+8+0+10)-(4+2+10) = 2
    
    Range   Chance to Hit
    ---------------------------
    Long         0%
    Medium       0%    [Can't say I like this a lot, but isn't]
    Short        0%    [reasonable that a Trader would have a]
    Very Short   3%    [*very* hard time hitting a warship.]

Let's do one more Cruiser vs Cruiser!

Cruiser uses Active  against Cruiser using Jamming & +2DM Evade program
        
    Sensor DM = (10 + 10) - (4 + 10)  = 6

    Cruiser Attempts to hit (6+8+4+10)-(4+2+10) = 12
    
    Range   Chance to Hit
    ---------------------------
    Long        34%
    Medium      50%
    Short       74%
    Very Short  91%
    
Unless, I'm missing something...By Jove I think we've got it! <g> 

This is the TO HIT Task, the Defending Ship still gets to apply it's
defensive weapons, Sandcasters against Lasers, Laser Arrays against
Missiles, and screens against other stuff.

Eris

ps.  BTW, is it true that there isn't a Screens Skill in T4?  Ok then, what
skill applies to screens then?    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 22:24:42 -0500
Subject: Re: StarShip Troopers

On 08/22/96 at 07:44 PM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Projected budget.

>$100,000,000.  Thats one-hundred Million for those of you to shocked by 
>the sight of that many zero's in a single figure.

Geeze Louise!  I enjoy my entertainment as much as the next guy, but take a
couple of these and an ID4 or two and we could *be* living on the moon and
on the way to Mars already!  ;-<

Maybe, somebody should sell the movie rights for a *real* trip to the moon,
or the first Mars mission!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:47:29 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

 
> I'm glad they chose to keep some B&W stuff in the new book.

It's growing on me I guess.  I agree about nostalgia and Kieth's
stuff.
 
> that at TL 11-12 they no longer require the rugged look in order for 
> something to /be/ rugged. :)
 
It's past that though.  I don't care what it looks like, but it
needs clearance!  Hell, my wagoneer (old, full-sized type) doesn't
have enough!

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 05:00:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Reality outruns fiction, again!

What I want to know is where I can get one of those wearable computers! :-)
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Warents [sic] and the Establishing Document

>From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)

>On Aug 21, 1996 17:56:23, '"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>' wrote: 
> 
>>At 03:51 pm 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote: 
>>> I was wondering how or when the Imperial warent can into existant. 
>>>perhaps it is stated in The Imperial Establishing Document by a simple  
>>line... 
>> 
>>Per Adventure 1, "Kinunir," it was created by "Imperial Edict 97," 
>>so it wasn't in the establishing document. The library data entry on the 
>>Imperial Warrant implies but doesn't state that the edict was issued by 
>>Strephon. 
> 
>I'm not sure what balck hole my copy of "Kinunir" fell down, but 
>Supplement 8:Library Data (A-M) contains no such implication (about 
>Strephon). 

It's interesting to compare the two sources.  Adventure 1, The Kinunir, at 40:

"Imperial Warrant:  In some select instances, Strephon has been known to
exercise his power through agents rather than directly through the
bureaucracy of the Imperium.  These instances are rare, although there is
reason to believe that such agents are more numerous than appears.  The
instrument of power for such Imperial agents is the Imperial warrant, a
document on Imperial stationery containing statements similar to the example
shown to the right.

"Known uses for such warrants have included the establishment of colonies in
areas requiring development, the assumption of military power in the midst
of crisis, and the unilateral establishment of new noble lines to administer
provinces which have suffered from war or economic collapse."

Supplement 8, Library Data (A-M), at 32-33:

"Imperial Warrant:  Instrument of power issued at the highest levels of
government.  A warrant is a written or electronic document provided to
trusted agents of the Imperium as a method of bypassing the bureaucracy.
Typically, a warrant is provided by the Emperor to an individual who
utilizes the power it provides to accomplish some mission. Missions may
include establishment of colonies in areas requiring development, the
assumption of military command in the midst of a crisis, and the unilateral
establishment of new noble lines to administer provinces which have suffered
from war or economic collapse.  See also Imperial Edict 97."

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trainspotting Traveller

>From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)

>Everyone; go see Trainspotting.  Off topic perhaps, but worthy of being
>said nonetheless.

I don't think it's off topic at all.  The characters in Trainspotting have
adventures and lives similar in many ways to the sordid, squalid, and often
short ones of PCs in my campaigns.  In fact, my current campaign involves
the sudden widespread distribution of an addictive, dangerous, psionic drug
in Jewell, Regina, and Aramis subsectors just before (and now during) the
Fifth Frontier War.  Will the main PC, an ex-Imperial Navy MCPO medic, and
his side-kicks, two Kforuzeng hoods on the run from Vargr justice, save the
Imperium from the Zhodani menace (if that's what it is)?  Or will he and his
gang just keep getting by?  Stay tuned.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:18:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Foss Ships

>From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>

>Yeah, it looks good.  Great job, guys.  Now I have to design all the
>cool Foss ships in there :-)  

Let's hope that we have model ships to paint a little sooner than last time!
(This is said without even having seen the Foss ships.)

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:45:39 PST
Subject: Re: Planet III Old Frontiers Sector

In mail you write:

> Does anyone have a copy of Planet III's Old Frontiers sector for their
> Traveller Navigator?  Planet III is no longer supporting Traveller
> Navigator.  I have the Diaspora Sector but waited until too late to see
> about ordering the Old Frontiers.   Actually, I'm not sure if the Old
> Frontiers sector was ever released; but if it was, I'd sure like to get my
> hands on a copy...

Was this program for the Apple or the Mac? I've recently come into
possesion of a decent Apple clone, so I'm interested in the software
that was released for the Apple.

> Also, I'd love to get a copy of the computer game "The Zhodani Conspiracy"
> if anyone has a copy they'd part with.

If that's what I think it is, a local store has several (used) copies
for sale, cheap. I doubt that they'll do mail order, but I might be
persuaded to buy a copy and ship it to you. (Sorry, but after getting
burned on some modules, it's either COD or *money order* in advance)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:38:25 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial Warents and the Establishing Document

In mail you write:

>  I was wondering how or when the Imperial warent can into existant.
> perhaps it is stated in The Imperial Establishing Document by a simple 
> line...
>
> "All worlds are free to govern them selves.......
> However, all worlds and individuals must heed, obey and assist our(the
> emperor and all his successors) duly appointed represenitives."
>
>         This would mean that the warrent is a simple document reminding the
> reader that the individual who owns the document is to be treated as if he
> where the emperor, and must be assisted in any way. If the holder of the
> warent is to be limeted to certain activities then note of this can be made
> in the doccument itself.
>
>  This would also open a door for Imposters/duplicates to pose for the
> emperor on his day off or vaction to the core sector.  ;)

It also opens other fun possibilities. For example, consider the
warrant Cardinal Richilieu wrote in "The Three Musketeers". Not wanting
to advertise just *what* sort of skuldugerry his agent was likely to be
up to, he had to make it general, and all-inclusive: "By my hand, and
for the good of the State, what the bearer has done has been done."

This came back to haunt him when D'Artangan presented said warrant when
asked just how he planned to deal with all the laws he'd broken. "One
must be careful what one writes... and who one gives it to. <sigh>" 

Many Imperial Warrants will be subject to the same sort of "creative
abuse", especially given that they too aren't always going to *name*
the bearer, or just what he is supposed to be up to. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #342
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 23 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 343

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 availability
         2. T4 Availability
         3. Re: Comments about T4
         4. Re: T4 availability
         5. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         6. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         7. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         8. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         9. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        10. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        11. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        12. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
        13. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
        14. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
        15. UPP details
        16. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
        17. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        18. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        19. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
        20. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        21. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:34:59 +1000
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 21 Aug 96 at 15:30, Joe Walsh spewed:
> 
> > BTW, I went up to Lake Geneva last weekend for their annual faire, and 
> > was surprised to find that the local phone directory listed abstolutely 
> > no game stores.  Under "Games, Retail" it had only TSR (which, unless 
> > they have a company store at their facility, was rather strange).  
> > 
> > Almost like going to Silicon Valley and finding no computer resellers...
> 
> Of course, there are dozens of computer companies in Silicon Valley, 
> there are only a couple of game companies in Lake Geneva...
> 
Actually , Don Perrin owns a game store there (The Games Guild, 
http://www.mag7.com) allong with Margret Weiss.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:50:46 +0000
Subject: T4 Availability

it hasnt hit the stores yet in Central Illinois yet either, probably 
Monday. I was told
I
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:57:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> > that at TL 11-12 they no longer require the rugged look in order for 
> > something to /be/ rugged. :)
>  
> It's past that though.  I don't care what it looks like, but it
> needs clearance!  Hell, my wagoneer (old, full-sized type) doesn't
> have enough!

True, but I was thinking more along the lines of having the front 
automatically raise and lower as needed, giving it more clearance.  Not 
probable, since they didn't mention that, though . . . :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:08:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> Actually , Don Perrin owns a game store there (The Games Guild, 
> http://www.mag7.com) allong with Margret Weiss.

No kidding!  They need to get into the local phone book's yellow pages 
under "Games, Retail" then.  I would have gladly stopped by, but because 
there were no games stores in the local phone book . . .

Thanks for the info.  I'll look up their web page, and if it gives the 
address, perhaps I'll be able to stop by.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:41:53 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

At 09:20 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/21/96 at 08:01 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
>
>>> =============================================================
>>> SENSORS Part One:  Detection

>You have to detect the presence of a ship before you can even think about
>shooting at it.  I'd say you can "fire blind", but to have a *prayer* of a
>chance you have to at least have detected the other ship's presence.  The
>next step is trying to improve on simple detection to some kind of
>"location solution", or "lock".

I'd like to propose that for the simple version of RSSC (is that
redundant?), firing blind is NOT an option.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:41:53 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

At 06:59 AM 8/22/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> There is a difference creeping in though, do we go with "Very Long" or "Out
>> of Range"?  They can mean the same thing, but we should be consistent.
>
>You're right.  It should be "Very Long," since it /is/ possible to use 
>sensors and communicators at that range. (Ergo, they are not truly "out 
>of range" of anything but weapons.)

I'd like there to be a range at which you can "see" your opponent, but have
virtually no chance at striking him.  Can we leave this range as "Out of
Range" and degrade the chance of hitting your opponent (with a Range Band 4
weapons only) to "staggering?"

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:41:52 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

At 09:20 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/21/96 at 08:01 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Range Name    Weapons bearing       Sensor Task
>--------------------------------------------------
>Contact     Boarding, no weapons    Easy
>Very Short  1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>Short       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>Medium      3 & 4 band weapons      Average
>Long        band 4 weapons only     Difficult
>Very Long   out of range            Formidible
>No Contact  out of range            really impossible!

I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
bands?  If not, is someone planning to organize all weapons into range bands
1 through 4?  What criteria will you use (ie missiles are always range 4 and
pulse lasers are always range 3)?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:35:59 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>> IV.     Combat for Ship with Initiative
>>         A.  Weapon Lock Attempt
>>         B.  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>>         C.  Damage Resolution and Allocation
>A.  Weapon Lock Attempt (Deleted)
>
>	[This phase is unnecessary, as this is achieved by Detecting the 
>ship.  If it is detected, or is running Active sensors, then the weapons 
>lock has been achieved.  Otherwise, it is impossible to fire on the ship.]

So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquiring
sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>[The below assumes the defending ship is within effective range of the 
>weapon to be used, of course.]
>
>[T4 uses the defender's Size Rating as the target number.  Unfortunately, 
>this number is too big to be a good DM, as it is from 5 to 12 (most often 
>at this level of battle, it will be 8, as that covers ship in the size 
>100-999 ton range).  So, we can either:
>
>1)  Use Size as the target
>2)  Discard Size
>3)  Come up with another, different Size Rating (some sort of conversion 
>chart, perhaps, or use the number in the hundreds column of the tons 
>displacement, since this system is meant for use with ships that are small).
>
>Although it is perhaps unrealistic, I favor discarding the size rating 
>altogether for this system.  If that isn't a popular decision, then I'd 
>prefer option 1 to option 3.  The last resort, IMO, would be option 3.  
>The system laid out below assumes using option 2.]

Older versions of Traveller had an agility rating for ship's.  Perhaps it
would make more sense to use the agility rating of the ship as a negative
DM.  Or perhaps the difference in agility of the two ships could be used as
a postive/negative DM.

Takers??

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:45:42 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>A)  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>
>	Target Number:  Gunnery skill
>	                + Fire Control Rating
>                        + Target's Size Rating
>                        - Target's G Rating
>                        - Target's Pilot or Tactics Skill
>                           (Whichever is higher)
>
>	# of Dice to Roll based on Range (q.v.)

Once upon a time, combat attacks were divided into two categories:

        4.1.2 Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense  
        4.1.3 Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense

Does your "target number" above (based on a range) include both of these
types of attacks?  If there is no difference, then we should no longer
distinguish them.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:49:04 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>A)  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>
>	Target Number:  Gunnery skill
>	                + Fire Control Rating
>                        + Target's Size Rating
>                        - Target's G Rating
>                        - Target's Pilot or Tactics Skill
>                           (Whichever is higher)
>
>	# of Dice to Roll based on Range (q.v.)

What is "Target's G Rating?"  Is this the same as Maneuver Drive rating?

Counter proposal:  gunnery skill + fire control rating - target's G rating -
target's pilot skill +/- sum of both ship's agility rating

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:01:51 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I want to walk through what's going on with a TO HIT task.  Remember we're
>talking ridiculously simple here so let's not add every little nuance we
>can think of.  <g>
>
>We want to sum:
>
>Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task (-4 to 16)
>Size of Target DM               (8 or 9)
>Fire Control DM                 (0 to 4)
>Gunnery Asset                   (1 to ??, expect around 10)
>
>  Anything else?

I would like to remove "Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task."  Let's leave
sensor /weapons lock out of this.  Either you have lock and can fire or you
do not have lock and cannot fire.  Simple, remember?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:04:56 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Range       Difficulty  Dice
>-----------------------------
>Very Short  Average     2d
>Short       Difficult   2.5d
>Medium      Formidable  3d   <--[Personally, I'd make these 2] Long       
>Staggering  3.5d <--[tasks one level more difficult]
>                                [but we want to stay within the]
>                                [rules as much as possible]

Last I saw, these were the ranges selected for RSSC:

No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
Extreme Range   - In range of band 4 weapons.
Long Range      - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
Effective Range - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
Short Range     - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.

Care to expand your range to hit chart to include these?  (You do need more
things to do, don't you? :-)

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:11:30 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>This is the TO HIT Task, the Defending Ship still gets to apply it's
>defensive weapons, Sandcasters against Lasers, Laser Arrays against
>Missiles, and screens against other stuff.

So are you saying combat goes like this?

1. Attack attempts TO HIT
2. If (1) was successful, defender attempts TO BLOCK
3. If (2) was not successful, location of hit and damage
   is determined.

Why not combine (1) and (2) into an opposing roll?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:32:59 +1000 (EST)
Subject: UPP details

Dear Folks -

Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net> asked:
> Does '.-...000-0' mean nobody is there or that there are 1-9 people with
not gov't, no law, and primative tech? 

Mark, there is an extension of the UPP (see _Spinward Marches Campaign_, 
_Regency Sourcebook_) that contains 3 digits for "The number, times 10, 
raised to the Pop digit from the UPP", number of planetoids, and number 
of gas giants in the system. If this population digit is 0, then there 
really is no population.

For example, Tavonni (Vilis/Spinward Marches 1520) is stated to have a 
UPP of:

E-567000-7	Lo Ba Ni	434	DD	G6 II	<----- 1120 data

The "434" is pop/belts/GG's. Tavonni has a population of 4 x 10^0 (ie. 4 
people - I have these down as a permanent Scout team). It has 3 planetoid 
belts: The Peanuts, Chips, and The Ice-Cubes. It also has 4 gas giants: 
Ryzel (around which Tavonni orbits), Martini, Vermouth, and Scotch.

[The remainder: "DD" = "Domain of Deneb" (allegiance); "G6 II" is the 
star type]

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:40:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:

> I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
> bands?  If not, is someone planning to organize all weapons into range bands
> 1 through 4?  What criteria will you use (ie missiles are always range 4 and
> pulse lasers are always range 3)?

In T4, weapons are listed with damage values for each range band, like this:

L Laser Battery 4,2,1,0

this would mean that this particular battery does 4 points of damage at 
range 1, 2 points of damage at range 2, 1 point of damage at range 3, and 
no damage at range 4.

Hope this helps.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:32:55 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>> IV.     Combat for Ship with Initiative
>>         A.  Weapon Lock Attempt
>>         B.  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>>         C.  Damage Resolution and Allocation
>A.  Weapon Lock Attempt (Deleted)
>
>	[This phase is unnecessary, as this is achieved by Detecting the 
>ship.  If it is detected, or is running Active sensors, then the weapons 
>lock has been achieved.  Otherwise, it is impossible to fire on the ship.]

So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquiring
sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:33:45 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>[The below assumes the defending ship is within effective range of the 
>weapon to be used, of course.]
>
>[T4 uses the defender's Size Rating as the target number.  Unfortunately, 
>this number is too big to be a good DM, as it is from 5 to 12 (most often 
>at this level of battle, it will be 8, as that covers ship in the size 
>100-999 ton range).  So, we can either:
>
>1)  Use Size as the target
>2)  Discard Size
>3)  Come up with another, different Size Rating (some sort of conversion 
>chart, perhaps, or use the number in the hundreds column of the tons 
>displacement, since this system is meant for use with ships that are small).
>
>Although it is perhaps unrealistic, I favor discarding the size rating 
>altogether for this system.  If that isn't a popular decision, then I'd 
>prefer option 1 to option 3.  The last resort, IMO, would be option 3.  
>The system laid out below assumes using option 2.]

Older versions of Traveller had an agility rating for ship's.  Perhaps it
would make more sense to use the agility rating of the ship as a negative
DM.  Or perhaps the difference in agility of the two ships could be used as
a postive/negative DM.

Takers??

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:35:27 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I want to walk through what's going on with a TO HIT task.  Remember we're
>talking ridiculously simple here so let's not add every little nuance we
>can think of.  <g>
>
>We want to sum:
>
>Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task (-4 to 16)
>Size of Target DM               (8 or 9)
>Fire Control DM                 (0 to 4)
>Gunnery Asset                   (1 to ??, expect around 10)
>
>  Anything else?

I would like to remove "Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task."  Let's leave
sensor /weapons lock out of this.  Either you have lock and can fire or you
do not have lock and cannot fire.  Simple, remember?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:34:52 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
Cc: gdw-beta@qrc.com

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>A)  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>
>	Target Number:  Gunnery skill
>	                + Fire Control Rating
>                        + Target's Size Rating
>                        - Target's G Rating
>                        - Target's Pilot or Tactics Skill
>                           (Whichever is higher)
>
>	# of Dice to Roll based on Range (q.v.)

What is "Target's G Rating?"  Is this the same as Maneuver Drive rating?

Counter proposal:  gunnery skill + fire control rating - target's G rating -
target's pilot skill +/- sum of both ship's agility rating

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:34:20 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
Cc: gdw-beta@qrc.com

At 09:55 PM 8/21/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:

>A)  Weapon To Hit Resolution
>
>	Target Number:  Gunnery skill
>	                + Fire Control Rating
>                        + Target's Size Rating
>                        - Target's G Rating
>                        - Target's Pilot or Tactics Skill
>                           (Whichever is higher)
>
>	# of Dice to Roll based on Range (q.v.)

Once upon a time, combat attacks were divided into two categories:

        4.1.2 Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense  
        4.1.3 Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense

Does your "target number" above (based on a range) include both of these
types of attacks?  If there is no difference, then we should no longer
distinguish them.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #343
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 23 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 344

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         2. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
         3. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         4. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
         5. RSSC: Where to post
         6. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         7. Re: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)
         8. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Sensor Lock DM
         9. Extraterritoriality (draft article - LONG!)
        10. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        11. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        12. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
        13. RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        14. Re: RSSC: Where to post
        15. Trade Rules WWW Page
        16. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:42:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:

> So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquiring
> sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
> different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?

That was my idea, while Eris wants to add that step.  T4 does it the way 
I suggest.

I guess we're going to have to decide whether we want RSSC to be lesser 
than, greater than, or equal to T4 in complexity.  As it stands now, it 
is becoming far more complex than the T4 space combat system, IMO.

Now that that's necessarily bad.  We probably shouldn't call it RSSC in 
that case, though.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:36:06 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Range       Difficulty  Dice
>-----------------------------
>Very Short  Average     2d
>Short       Difficult   2.5d
>Medium      Formidable  3d   <--[Personally, I'd make these 2] Long       
>Staggering  3.5d <--[tasks one level more difficult]
>                                [but we want to stay within the]
>                                [rules as much as possible]

Last I saw, these were the ranges selected for RSSC:

No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
Out of Range    - In Sensor range, Out of weapons range.
Extreme Range   - In range of band 4 weapons.
Long Range      - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
Effective Range - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
Short Range     - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.

Care to expand your range to hit chart to include these?  (You do need more
things to do, don't you? :-)

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:44:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:

> Once upon a time, combat attacks were divided into two categories:
> 
>         4.1.2 Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense  
>         4.1.3 Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense
> 
> Does your "target number" above (based on a range) include both of these
> types of attacks?  If there is no difference, then we should no longer
> distinguish them.

In the earlist stages of this project, Eris proposed (and I agreed) that 
we deal only with lasers at first, then add on the rest of the weapons 
later.  So, this first draft attack table that I proposed is concerned 
only with lasers.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:37:02 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

At 09:47 PM 8/22/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>This is the TO HIT Task, the Defending Ship still gets to apply it's
>defensive weapons, Sandcasters against Lasers, Laser Arrays against
>Missiles, and screens against other stuff.

So are you saying combat goes like this?

1. Attack attempts TO HIT
2. If (1) was successful, defender attempts TO BLOCK
3. If (2) was not successful, location of hit and damage
   is determined.

Why not combine (1) and (2) into an opposing roll?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:02:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RSSC: Where to post

Hi,

I suggest we move the RSSC discussion to TML only.  I don't think there 
is a need to copy all this stuff to GDW-Beta.  So, if there are no 
objections, TML is where I'll be doing all my RSSC posting and I suggest 
others involved in this discussion do so as well.

Also, there is no need to send a separate copy to me or Eris when posting 
about RSSC.  We both subscribe to the list.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 09:59:09 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

On 08/23/96 at 09:41 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

>>You're right.  It should be "Very Long," since it /is/ possible to use 
>>sensors and communicators at that range. (Ergo, they are not truly "out 
>>of range" of anything but weapons.)

>I'd like there to be a range at which you can "see" your opponent, but
>have virtually no chance at striking him.  Can we leave this range as "Out
>of Range"...

You mean add a range beyond Very Long and No Contact called "Out of Range?" 
Where you aren't *really* out of range, you can still detect ships, but so
far out as to make it virtually impossible to hit them?

>...and degrade the chance of hitting your opponent (with a Range
>Band 4 weapons only) to "staggering?"

Not with staggering.  Unless we find some more DM's to cut down on Sensor
DM's and/or size's affect on the TO HIT numbers you'll have to go to 6d6 to
really make you chances of hitting at that range.

There are two things I'm pondering now:  1) How to get the Sensor DM down
some (not a lot, but some); 2) more DM's to make it harder to hit a ship.


In the meantime, this is not an Offical RSSC proposal, but it might be a
good House Rule if you want *really* long range duels...

Long Range Combat
- -- 
Range           dice    Description
- ------------------------------------------------------
Contact*         --     No Weapons, boarding only
Very Short      2.5d6   Any weapons    
Short           3d6     band 2-4 weapons
Medium          3.5d6   band 3 & 4 weapons
Long            4d6     band 4 weapons
Very Long       5d6     band 4 weapons, smaller chances to hit
Out of Range    6d6     band 4 weapons, very small chances to hit
No Contact      ---     unsightable, no chance to hit

The Tasks are all harder and you have a small chance of hitting at
the extreme ranges with long range weapons.


*An Idea!  If this is for boarding, then maybe we should call it the
Boarding range instead of Contact.  Oh, and I think we need to
explictly state that in the basic RSSC you can't board a ship with
at working MDrive.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:22:47 -0500
Subject: Re: T4:  RSSC Proposal 3 (Addendum)

On 08/22/96 at 08:56 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

>I like the idea of opposing tasks for maneuver, but not this far.  At
>least, not in clear space.  There is no way a pilot with a 1G ship can
>stop a pilot with a 2G ship overhauling him, no matter how good he is.

>Now, if the fight takes place in orbit, through a ring, or in similar
>circumstances where 'terrain' can be used for concealment or where
>superior skill makes a difference, I'll agree with you.

All the above is true.  <g> I *know* what I'm proposing isn't
realistic in open space where one ship wants to 'run like hell' and the
other want to close.  In that case the ship with the faster MDrive ought to
*always* succeed.  I don't oppose making that a rule.

However, all rules are subject to the GM's discression!  <g> So, if you
want to be a little less realistic or the ships were in orbit, ring, belt
(I *know* what a belt's like, but for game purposes it's just as cluttered
as the GM decides <g>) or whatever you could go one way, and if you wanted
to be more realistic and the ships were in open space you could go another.  
How does that sound?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:13:40 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Sensor Lock DM

- -- 

=============================================================
SENSORS II: Weapons Locking (DM for TO HIT)

AShip : Attacking Ship
DShip : Defending Ship

Range_Mod*     Task        dice    scope of mod
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Contact        Auto          0d   0
Very Short     Easy        1.5d   2 to 9
Short          Average       2d   2 to 12
Medium         Difficult   2.5d   3 to 15
Long           Formidable    3d   3 to 18
Very Long      Staggering  3.5d  * House rule proposal
Out of Range   Impossible    4d  * House rule proposal
No Contact           -- not applicable --

Jamming Rule:  A Defending Ship may use it's Jamming Rating 
               only if the Attacking ship is Actively Scanning.
               
Formula: 

  (DShip's_Size + AShip's_Sensor_Rating + AShip's_Sensor_Skill)
- - (DShip's_Sensor_Skill + Range_Mod + [DShip's_Jam_Rate] )
  ---------------------------------------------------------  
            Sensor DM added to TO HIT
            
            
=============================================================

*Range SHOULD be included!  I don't know if the Range_Mod should
be included as number of dice to roll or not.  <G> My first thoughts
were a simple number based on the range like:

            Simple
Range       PropA   PropB   PropC   PropD
- -----------------------------------------
Contact       0       0       0       0
Very Short    1       1       1       2
Short         2       2       3       4
Medium        3       4       5       8
Long          4       8       7      16

Then I thought, "we don't have any randomness in the sensing task
yet, so I'll through some in", that's were the Range_Mod being based
on a number of dice came from.  If the defending ship's Size is used
in both the Sensor DM Task and the TO HIT task, the numbers work out
pretty well.  On average it should LOWER the chances to hit at the
longer ranges without raising them much at the shorter ranges.  We
*might* need to push the difficulty up one level too, but I haven't
had a chance to run many tests yet, so I'm not sure.  

BTW, I think having the Defending Ship's size be on the Attacking
Players side of the equation (so to speak) is confusing, but that's
the way it has to work.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 02:35:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extraterritoriality (draft article - LONG!)

Dear Folks -

Here is a draft article about extrality. Upon reading this, you'll 
understand why I am opposed to forcing *all* 'ports to be 
extraterritorial. I firmly believe that only one port - and in some case 
only one *part* of a 'port, such as the orbital component - need be 
handed over to the Imperium. This is similar to the concept of "domestic" 
and "international" airports today.

I intend submitting this to IG, after some refinement. Please let me know 
what you think!

BTW, I now have a web page at http://pcug.org.au/~davidjw. This links to 
my "Links Page" - and then to (drum-roll!) my _Traveller Library Data_ 
pages. Very rudimentary now, but I hope to have more soon.

EXTRATERRITORIALITY

Introduction

The major basis of Cleon's Imperium is that it is a trade protectorate; 
that is, joining the Imperium brings a world's merchants and merchandise 
under the protective umbrella of the Imperial Navy. One of the chief ways 
of ensuring that travel and trade are protected has been to standardise 
many of the factors involved. These standards attempt to level the 
playing field, providing certain basic advice and protection for traders. 
Some examples are:

- - classification of planetary systems with a standard UPP;
- - creation of standard hazard warning labels;
- - use of standard regulations governing shipping, such as the requirement 
for annual maintenance.

Another way that Cleon has standardised trade is to introduce the concept 
of starport extraterritoriality. That is, a system's main starport is 
considered to be Imperial territory and not part of their homeworld. This 
allows standardisation of procedures, and allows the Starport Authority 
(SPA) to function Imperium-wide.

Creating an Extraterritorial Starport

When contacted by the expanding Imperium, a system may or may not have a 
number of 'ports. These may be actual starports (usually still-functional 
leftovers from the Second Imperium), or spaceports constructed by the 
home planet for its own in-system operations.

A pre-requisite for Imperial membership is to cede at least one 'port to 
the Imperium, which becomes the chief starport. The signing of the 
allegiance document transfers ownership of the 'port (and such adjacent 
land as has been agreed upon) from the home system to the Imperium. The 
latter now controls the starport's operations, personnel, regulations, 
finances, and so forth. The starport grounds are considered to be 
surrounded by an extrality line, and Imperial law prevails within this 
area. The SPA rates the starport facilities and publishes them as part of 
the system's UPP. Field facilities are maintained by SPA personnel - 
generally recruited from the local population.

Note that this does not prevent a system from having other starports. 
High population systems often have more than one starport, and these 
extra 'ports may or may not be extraterritorial. Planets may even have 
private starports, but only billionaires are able to afford such things. 
If other 'ports exist, they are usually only spaceports, and are almost 
certainly locally-owned.

Starport Laws

Imperial Law applies within starports. The law level is generally set at 
1, to ban the most destructive and insidious weaponry. Naturally, such 
devices may be stored aboard ship, internal ship security still being the 
prerogative of the ship's captain. All ships' weapons are allowed, 
although there seems to be a move to regulate the usage of nuclear 
weapons. Nothing has been codified, but traders who carry nukes notice 
that the Navy and SPA are decidedly jumpy when they are discovered.

Imperial law is in its infancy. Of necessity it is generalised, as it 
covers many cultures. The law retains some basics to prevent anarchy, 
such as its classification of murder as a crime, as well as many forms of 
violence upon a person. Piracy and barratry are expressly outlawed as 
they directly affect trade. Other laws are expressed as regulations, and 
while still Imperial, may be more to do with local conditions. Dangerous 
activities are often outlawed, such as dangerous driving or flying, 
shooting off weapons in public, and so on. Often the local culture has an 
effect, and common sense should be used in framing such local regulations.

Wholesale disruption of trade is known to bring retribution from the 
Imperium, although no definite laws exist to codify the meaning of this 
term. In the few demonstrable instances of this type, the new Imperium 
has responded in different ways. When the ??? company stifled trade in 
the ??? system, the Imperium forced the company into liquidation by 
subsidising other merchants and providing patrol cruisers as escort 
vessels (ostensibly on "training missions"). However, it appears to have 
turned a blind eye to the activities of the sector-wide Tukera merchant 
line, currently involved in buy-outs of a number of smaller lines in the 
??? area. Whether this mixed response continues to be a feature of the 
new Imperium remains to be seen.

Legal assistance is available at starports of Type-C and above, at least 
for local matters. Interplanetary lawyers - those versed in Imperial Law 
- - are rarer, but there is at least one per Type-A or -B starport. Lower 
class starports must send away for legal aid, often taking weeks before a 
hearing is possible. Due to this time lag, the Starport Director has 
authority to rule on most crimes and all regulations. The Director, at 
their own discretion, can also hold people in custody, withhold exit 
visas, and impound starships. Appeals to higher authority are possible, 
but incur lengthy delays.

Starport Finances

Businesses with their head office located within the extrality line do 
not pay tax to the local system. Instead, they pay tax to the Imperium, 
which sets its rate 5% higher than the local rate. This prevents 
companies from using starports as tax havens. In any case, the buildings 
and land in the starport area are owned by the Imperium. Firms using 
starport facilities must pay rent, rates, power bills and so forth to the 
Starport Authority.

In turn, the Imperium considers its acquisition of the starport as an 
indefinite lease, and returns half of the starport's revenue to the 
planet. The SPA keeps the other half to pay for personnel, maintenance, 
and starport upgrades. Revenue consists of land and building leases, 
landing fees, cost of fuel, ship maintenance fees, possible exit taxes, 
and so on.

Extra monies, when present, are paid into the Imperial Starport Fund. 
This is administered by the SPA, in consultation with the Contact and 
Liaison Branch of the IISS. Starport Directors or the SPA Executive may 
submit funding requests for special projects. If approved, ISF money is 
directed towards the project. Additionally, the ISF is drawn upon to 
build new starports, repair damaged ones, acquire extra land, and so on.

Later Milieux

All the previous discussion has assumed Milieu 0. By Milieu 1100, the 
Imperial bureaucracy has made some minor changes to extrality.

Firstly, rare cases exist where a system's main trading starport is not 
extraterritorial. Generally, these systems are also Amber or Red Zones, 
and the starport rating is C or less. Sometimes one element - usually 
orbital - is extraterritorial, but the other is owned by the local system 
(often the case with balkanised worlds and multiple downports). Note that 
locally-owned starports can be commandeered by the local Naval commander 
in the event of an emergency.

The chance that a planetary starport is not Imperial is determined by the 
following table:

Starport Type			A	B	C	D	E
% chance of local ownership	5	5	5	10	20
Modifiers: Amber Zone and not Captive Government, +15%.
           Red Zone and not Captive Government, +25%.

The law level within a starport is determined by 1D-2, treating results 
less than 0 as 0. Even at low law levels, the open display of personal 
weaponry is discouraged.

Privately-owned buildings may exist within the extrality line. The land 
on which they stand is generally leased from the Imperium, with a 99-year 
term. Under a special agreement, TAS Hostels are exempt from paying a 
lease, but they must still pay rates, power, and so on.

The ISF is run on a sector-wide basis, with monies from the sector 
channelled back into the same sector. The Imperial Ministry of 
Colonisation may also submit funding requests on behalf of new or 
struggling colonies.

Further Potential topics:
- - smuggling
- - customs in slightly more detail
- - local crim requests shelter aboard PC's ship

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:50:31 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On 08/23/96 at 10:49 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

>Counter proposal:  gunnery skill + fire control rating - target's G rating
> - target's pilot skill +/- sum of both ship's agility rating

Could somebody with T4 tell me if there *is* an agility rating anymore?  I
can see using the Defending ship's agility to lower the TO HIT number.  I
don't think the Attacking ship's agility would have enough effect to
include it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:45:08 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On 08/23/96 at 10:42 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquirin
>> sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
>> different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?

>That was my idea, while Eris wants to add that step.  T4 does it the way 
>I suggest.

>I guess we're going to have to decide whether we want RSSC to be lesser 
>than, greater than, or equal to T4 in complexity.  As it stands now, it 
>is becoming far more complex than the T4 space combat system, IMO.

I was afraid of that! <g>  We're all grognards at heart.

>Now that that's necessarily bad.  We probably shouldn't call it RSSC in 
>that case, though.

Maybe so, but our system might *play* pretty simple after we get finished. 
But even if it does get a little more complex then, how about "Reasonable
Skill-based Space Combat?"

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:32:02 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

On 08/23/96 at 09:41 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

>>Range Name    Weapons bearing       Sensor Task
>>--------------------------------------------------
>>Contact     Boarding, no weapons    Easy
>>Very Short  1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>>Short       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>>Medium      3 & 4 band weapons      Average
>>Long        band 4 weapons only     Difficult
>>Very Long   out of range            Formidible
>>No Contact  out of range            really impossible!

>I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
>bands?  

I don't either, and not for lack of trying either!  <G> I'm basing all this
on the designs that have been posted over the last couple of months, here
and on the other lists.  All the weapons seem to be listed with 4 range
bands, so I'm assumming....<g>

>If not, is someone planning to organize all weapons into range
>bands 1 through 4?  What criteria will you use (ie missiles are always
>range 4 and pulse lasers are always range 3)?

I think that varies with the weapon.  There are lasers that go out to range
4, but do progressively less damage.  Missiles, I'm not sure about (Joe and
I are concentrating on Lasers first), but I think they are listed with
similar range band descriptions.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:39:56 -0500
Subject: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On 08/23/96 at 10:35 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

>>A.  Weapon Lock Attempt (Deleted)
>>
>>	[This phase is unnecessary, as this is achieved by Detecting the 
>>ship.  If it is detected, or is running Active sensors, then the weapons 
>>lock has been achieved.  Otherwise, it is impossible to fire on the ship.]

>So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquiring
>sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
>different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?

No consensus yet, I don't think.  I'm still pushing the 2 step approach:  

Detection - you know it's there, so you *can* shoot at it, but you don't
yet know enough to hit it.  Simple Detection should be fairly easy, but
locating a ship with the precision to hit should be much harder.

Locking DM - determining the *quality* of your sighting on the other ship,
so you can add a DM to your TO HIT task.  The quality can range from a
negative number (poor chance), through zero
(better chance), into positive numbers (best chances).

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 12:05:26 -0500
Subject: Re: RSSC: Where to post

On 08/23/96 at 11:02 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>I suggest we move the RSSC discussion to TML only.  I don't think there 
>is a need to copy all this stuff to GDW-Beta.  So, if there are no 
>objections, TML is where I'll be doing all my RSSC posting and I suggest 
>others involved in this discussion do so as well.

>Also, there is no need to send a separate copy to me or Eris when posting 
>about RSSC.  We both subscribe to the list.

Ok by me, as long as Rob doesn't run us off TML, we'll stick to just
posting to this list. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Aug 1996 11:29:04 GMT
Subject: Trade Rules WWW Page

Has anyone other than JD Burdick had trouble accessing my Traveller pages?

Has anyone successfully accessed my Traveller pages?

I'm trying to debug a problem here, so if you've tried (successfully or
unsuccessfully) please send me a note.  And if you had a problem, the exact
error message would be useful.

Thanks.


The URLs are:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html
http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/trade.html


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

At 09:59 AM 8/23/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/23/96 at 09:41 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
>
>>>You're right.  It should be "Very Long," since it /is/ possible to use 
>>>sensors and communicators at that range. (Ergo, they are not truly "out 
>>>of range" of anything but weapons.)
>
>>I'd like there to be a range at which you can "see" your opponent, but
>>have virtually no chance at striking him.  Can we leave this range as "Out
>>of Range"...
>
>You mean add a range beyond Very Long and No Contact called "Out of Range?" 
>Where you aren't *really* out of range, you can still detect ships, but so
>far out as to make it virtually impossible to hit them?

No, no, no.  I don't want to add a new range.  I want the name of the range
just beyond detection to be called "out of range."  See below....

            Range Name      Weapons bearing         Sensor Task
            --------------------------------------------------
            Contact         Boarding, no weapons    Easy
            Short           1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Effective       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Long            3 & 4 band weapons      Average
            Extreme         band 4 weapons only     Difficult
            Out of Range    out of range            Formidible
            Out of Contact  out of range            Impossible!

When this chart was suggested, someone noted that if the sensor task for
"Out of Range" is formidable, then it really shouldn't be called Out of
Range, but perhaps Very Long.  My suggestion is to leave the name as Out of
Range, but make the Sensor Task Staggering instead of Formidible.  The idea
is that you are outside of the effective range of band 4 weapons, but you
can take a really wild shot if you want to.

I *really* like the idea of having a range at which you can detect but not
attack your opponent.  I think this will foster rp'ing.  But I want it to be
very rare, desparate measures when someone attempts to attack his opponents
at the "out of range" range.  Do one of two things:

1) Don't allow attacks at "Out of Range."
2) Allow attacks, but make them Staggeringly Difficult.

>In the meantime, this is not an Offical RSSC proposal, but it might be a
>good House Rule if you want *really* long range duels...

No, I don't want really long range duels.  That's not my point at all.

As a matter of fact, I'd be happy with only two combat ranges - short and
long (simple, remember?).  Do the types of weapons on the market lend
themselves to four combat ranges, as we have now?  Are there certain
military types of weapons that can be used on range bands 3 and 4 that
ordinary people can't get?

>*An Idea!  If this is for boarding, then maybe we should call it the
>Boarding range instead of Contact.  Oh, and I think we need to
>explictly state that in the basic RSSC you can't board a ship with
>at working MDrive.

The name is purely semantics.  Change it if you want.  And I have stated in
the rules.

Note that I have been collecting all the info on RSSC and condensing it into
one file.  I've been keeping all the info that we've come to consensus on
and organizing it.  Later today I'll post it.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #344
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 23 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 345

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         2. Hey You!! Was: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         3. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         4. RE: Trade Rules WWW Page
         5. RSSC - Summary (Long)
         6. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection
         7. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         8. Preliminary Thoughts About T4
         9. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
        10. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
        11. T4 Availability
        12. Help and T4 Availability
        13. Re: Preliminary Thoughts About T4
        14. Re: Comments about T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:28:13 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

At 10:40 AM 8/23/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:
>
>> I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
>> bands?  If not, is someone planning to organize all weapons into range bands
>> 1 through 4?  What criteria will you use (ie missiles are always range 4 and
>> pulse lasers are always range 3)?
>
>In T4, weapons are listed with damage values for each range band, like this:
>
>L Laser Battery 4,2,1,0
>
>this would mean that this particular battery does 4 points of damage at 
>range 1, 2 points of damage at range 2, 1 point of damage at range 3, and 
>no damage at range 4.

Ah!  Well then, if all weapons are like this, then let's keep 4 combat
ranges.  I also move to not allow combat at the "Out of Range" range.  And I
suppose my "Hey You!!" posting was a bit pre-mature.  I didn't realize that
you had a book, Joe.  Sorry all.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:21:08 -0400
Subject: Hey You!! Was: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

At 11:32 AM 8/23/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/23/96 at 09:41 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:

If you have a copy of the T4 rules, please read this and attempt to answer
our question.  Thanks,

>>>Range Name    Weapons bearing       Sensor Task
>>>--------------------------------------------------
>>>Contact     Boarding, no weapons    Easy
>>>Very Short  1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>>>Short       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
>>>Medium      3 & 4 band weapons      Average
>>>Long        band 4 weapons only     Difficult
>>>Very Long   out of range            Formidible
>>>No Contact  out of range            really impossible!
>
>>I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
>>bands?  

>>If not, is someone planning to organize all weapons into range
>>bands 1 through 4?  What criteria will you use (ie missiles are always
>>range 4 and pulse lasers are always range 3)?
>
>I think that varies with the weapon.  There are lasers that go out to range
>4, but do progressively less damage.  Missiles, I'm not sure about (Joe and
>I are concentrating on Lasers first), but I think they are listed with
>similar range band descriptions.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:42:23 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

At 11:39 AM 8/23/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/23/96 at 10:35 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
>
>>>A.  Weapon Lock Attempt (Deleted)
>>>
>>>	[This phase is unnecessary, as this is achieved by Detecting the 
>>>ship.  If it is detected, or is running Active sensors, then the weapons 
>>>lock has been achieved.  Otherwise, it is impossible to fire on the ship.]
>
>>So you're suggesting that detecting a target ship is the same as acquiring
>>sensor/weapon's lock on that ship?  Do we have consensus on this?  It's
>>different than what Eris was proposing?  How does T4 handle it?
>
>No consensus yet, I don't think.  I'm still pushing the 2 step approach:  
>
>Detection - you know it's there, so you *can* shoot at it, but you don't
>yet know enough to hit it.  Simple Detection should be fairly easy, but
>locating a ship with the precision to hit should be much harder.

I'm in favor of this.  See my posting of the why I don't think jamming
renders passive scanners ineffective.  BTW, does T4 still use the concept of
a passive and an active EMS suite, Joe?

>Locking DM - determining the *quality* of your sighting on the other ship,
>so you can add a DM to your TO HIT task.  The quality can range from a
>negative number (poor chance), through zero
>(better chance), into positive numbers (best chances).

I think it would be simpler to not have a quality.  Let's leave this as a
binary result:  it's either on or it's off.

General suggestion:  the less DMs that we have to keep track of, the faster
(and simpler) that RSSC will be.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:50:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Trade Rules WWW Page

Tried.  Got onto both pages without a problem.

- ----------
From: 
	Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca[SMTP:Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-  
york.on.ca]
Sent: 	Friday, August 23, 1996 7:29 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Trade Rules WWW Page

Has anyone other than JD Burdick had trouble accessing my Traveller 
pages?

Has anyone successfully accessed my Traveller pages?

I'm trying to debug a problem here, so if you've tried (successfully 
or
unsuccessfully) please send me a note.  And if you had a problem, the 
exact
error message would be useful.

Thanks.


The URLs are:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html
http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/trade.html




------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:54:42 -0400
Subject: RSSC - Summary (Long)

Here's my take on RSSC to date.  Notice that I have slanted it for
multi-ship combat, but it can easily be condensed for ship-to-ship combat.

- -----------

The RSSC System
- ---------------

Ranges
- ------

There are 7 abstract ranges:

No Contact      - beyond sensor range, unsighted, escaped.
Out of Range    - In Sensor range, out of weapons range.
Extreme Range   - In range of band 4 weapons.
Long Range      - In range of band 3 & 4 weapons.
Effective Range - In range of band 2, 3 & 4 weapons.
Short Range     - In range of band 1 to 4 weapons (all).
Contact         - Boarding only, no ship weapons may fire.

The initial range is determined by the GM (usually Out of Range).
Boarding is possible only if one ship's manuever drive is disabled.


Roleplaying
- -----------

Roleplaying is be encouraged at each step in this process:  PC's may
attempt to communicate with the other ship; roleplay damage control
attempts, undertake Boarding actions (when possible), or anything
else they want to do.


The Process
- -----------

1 Pre-Contact Detection Phase - The ship is routinely scanning and
may detect another ship.  A ship may not enter the next phase until
it detects another ship.

    1.1 Any ship using active sensors is automatically detected by
    all ships within sensor range.

    1.2 To detect another ship, complete detection task based on
    range as noted in Figure One.
        
        1.2.1 The active or passive rating of the detecting ship is a
        positive DM.
        
        1.2.2 The sensor ops skill of the crew member on the
        detecting ship is a positive DM.
        
        1.2.3 The size of the detectee ship is a positive DM.
        
        1.2.3 The jamming rating of the detectee ship is a negative
        DM.

                                Figure One

            Range Name      Weapons bearing         Sensor Task
            --------------------------------------------------
            Contact         Boarding, no weapons    Easy
            Short           1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Effective       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Long            3 & 4 band weapons      Average
            Extreme         band 4 weapons only     Difficult
            Out of Range    out of range            Impossible
            Out of Contact  out of range            mpossible!

2 Initiative Phase - Each ship rolls 2d6 + Leadership.  Highest
number has the highest Initiative.
    
3 Movement Phase - The three movement actions are:  Evade (move
away), Maintain (stay in same range band), Close (draw closer).
    
    3.1 Player with lowest Initiative states Movement Action for this
    round.
    
    3.2 Remaining ships state Movement Task in order of increasing
    Initiative.

    3.3 Determine movement results.
    
        3.3.1 If both choose the same task it automatically succeeds.
    
            3.3.1.1 Both choose Evade - ships move one range apart
        
            3.3.1.2 Both choose Maintain - ships maintain current
            range
        
            3.3.1.3 Both choose Close - ships move one range closer
    
        3.3.2 If tasks don't match then there is a contest to see
        which succeeds. (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)  vs  (Pilot+Tactics+Md6)
        Highest number wins, but ships with higher Initiative may
        concede contest.  Ties go to the ship with higher Initiative.

[Comment:  Making the ships with lower initiatives move first gives
the ship with a higher Initiative the advantage of seeing what their
opponents are doing before moving.  Also, notice that the ships with
a higher Initiative can *let* their opponent's action succeed.]

4 Attack Phase

    4.1 Ship with the highest Initiative attempts to attack.
    
        4.1.1 Attempt Sensor/Weapons Lock - Once a sensor lock has
        been achieved, it can be maintained unless circumstances
        drastically change (such as the pirate ducking behind an
        asteroid).  
        
            4.1.1.1 If target is actively scanning, then the
            attacking ship can sense target and lock on
            automatically.
        
            4.1.1.2 If target is passively scanning, then the
            attacking ship must make a task roll based on range:
            Sensor Ops, DM + Sensor Rating. 
            
            4.1.1.3 If target is jamming, then the attacking ship
            must make an opposed task roll:
            (SensorSkill+SensorFactor+?Die?)  vs
            (SensorSkill+JamFactor+?Die?)
        
        4.1.2 Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense  
        
            4.1.2.1 Weapon To Hit Resolution - Attacker's would add
            (Gunnery skill)+(Some Weapon Factor)+(Fire Control
            Rating). Defender's would add (Range: some # of
            dice)+(Pilot)+(Some Defensive Weapon Factor/Ship's
            Agility)
            
            OR Target Number:  Gunnery skill  + Fire Control Rating
            + Target's Size Rating  - Target's G Rating  - Target's
            Pilot or Tactics Skill (Whichever is higher).  # of Dice
            to Roll based on Range (q.v.)
         
            OR Add 
                Sensor DM from Lock vs Jam Task (-4 to 16) 
                Size of Target DM               (8 or 9) 
                Fire Control DM                 (0 to 4) 
                Gunnery Asset                   (1 to ??, expect
                around 10)

            Subtract
                Defending Ships Movement        (1 to 6) 
                Defending Pilot's Asset         (1 to ??, around 10?)
                Evasion s/w                     (2 to 6)
         
                       Figure Two
                    
                Range       Difficulty  Dice
                -----------------------------
                Very Short  Average     2d
                Short       Difficult   2.5d
                Medium      Formidable  3d   
                Long        Staggering  3.5d
         
         
            This is the TO HIT Task, the Defending Ship still gets to
            apply it's defensive weapons, Sandcasters against Lasers,
            Laser Arrays against Missiles, and screens against other
            stuff.
         
            4.1.2.2 Damage Location Resolution -
            
            4.1.2.3 Damage Allocation - Subtract the value from the
            weapon rating from Armor (if any) first, then from
            Structure.  Once Structure is at 0, the ship is
            destroyed.  Each Armor hit results in a roll on the
            Surface Explosion Table (T4, p. 120).  Each Structure hit
            results in a roll on the Interior Explosion Table (T4, p.
            120).  Hits that take away the last of the Armor and then
            do damage to Structure get one roll on each table.  Meson
            Gun hits only roll on the Interior Explosion table. 
        
        4.1.3 Missile Attack vs Defending Laser Defense
        
            4.1.3.1 Weapon To Hit Resolution - Attacker's would add
            (Gunnery skill)+(Some Weapon Factor)+(Fire Control
            Rating). Defender's would add (Range:  some # of
            dice)+(Pilot)+(Some Defensive Weapon Factor/Ship's
            Agility)
            
            4.1.3.2 Damage Location Resolution -
            
            4.1.3.3 Damage Allocation - 
        
    4.2 Remaining ships attack in order of decreasing Initiative.

5 Repeat from Initiative Phase as needed or until all sides pass
beyond Out of Contact range or until all sides close to Contact
range.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:34:55 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Detection

> >I don't have a copy of T4 rules yet.  Are weapons categorized by range
> >bands?  
> 
> I don't either, and not for lack of trying either!  <G> I'm basing all this
> on the designs that have been posted over the last couple of months, here
> and on the other lists.  All the weapons seem to be listed with 4 range
> bands, so I'm assumming....<g>

Yes.  The range bands correspond to Short Range breakdowns from
FFS/BL/BR.  The basis is SR10, so the ranges are 10, 20, 40, 80
hexes (10hexes=1light second).  Try to make your to-hit rolls so
that hitting a player sized ship past range band 3 is bloody
unlikely.

> I think that varies with the weapon.  There are lasers that go out to range
> 4, but do progressively less damage.  Missiles, I'm not sure about (Joe and
> I are concentrating on Lasers first), but I think they are listed with
> similar range band descriptions.

Missiles should close range over time (giving PCs time to plan ways
to shoot it down or spoof it (makes for neat role playing, IMHO).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:29:48 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

Subject: 

At 09:59 AM 8/23/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 08/23/96 at 09:41 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
>
>>>You're right.  It should be "Very Long," since it /is/ possible to use 
>>>sensors and communicators at that range. (Ergo, they are not truly "out 
>>>of range" of anything but weapons.)
>
>>I'd like there to be a range at which you can "see" your opponent, but
>>have virtually no chance at striking him.  Can we leave this range as "Out
>>of Range"...
>
>You mean add a range beyond Very Long and No Contact called "Out of Range?" 
>Where you aren't *really* out of range, you can still detect ships, but so
>far out as to make it virtually impossible to hit them?

No, no, no.  I don't want to add a new range.  I want the name of the range
just beyond detection to be called "out of range."  See below....

            Range Name      Weapons bearing         Sensor Task
            --------------------------------------------------
            Contact         Boarding, no weapons    Easy
            Short           1 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Effective       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy
            Long            3 & 4 band weapons      Average
            Extreme         band 4 weapons only     Difficult
            Out of Range    out of range            Formidible
            Out of Contact  out of range            Impossible!

When this chart was suggested, someone noted that if the sensor task for
"Out of Range" is formidable, then it really shouldn't be called Out of
Range, but perhaps Very Long.  My suggestion is to leave the name as Out of
Range, but make the Sensor Task Staggering instead of Formidible.  The idea
is that you are outside of the effective range of band 4 weapons, but you
can take a really wild shot if you want to.

I *really* like the idea of having a range at which you can detect but not
attack your opponent.  I think this will foster rp'ing.  But I want it to be
very rare, desparate measures when someone attempts to attack his opponents
at the "out of range" range.  Do one of two things:

1) Don't allow attacks at "Out of Range."
2) Allow attacks, but make them Staggeringly Difficult.

>In the meantime, this is not an Offical RSSC proposal, but it might be a
>good House Rule if you want *really* long range duels...

No, I don't want really long range duels.  That's not my point at all.

As a matter of fact, I'd be happy with only two combat ranges - short and
long (simple, remember?).  Do the types of weapons on the market lend
themselves to four combat ranges, as we have now?  Are there certain
military types of weapons that can be used on range bands 3 and 4 that
ordinary people can't get?

>*An Idea!  If this is for boarding, then maybe we should call it the
>Boarding range instead of Contact.  Oh, and I think we need to
>explictly state that in the basic RSSC you can't board a ship with
>at working MDrive.

The name is purely semantics.  Change it if you want.  And I have stated in
the rules.

Note that I have been collecting all the info on RSSC and condensing it into
one file.  I've been keeping all the info that we've come to consensus on
and organizing it.  Later today I'll post it.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:43:14 -0400
Subject: Preliminary Thoughts About T4

The softcover T4 arrived in Boston today... I got one, not willing to wait
two more weeks for the hardcover.
   I shall read it through pretty quickly to give some thoughts about it,
though I must state that the presentation, layout, and artwork look mighty
good and the typos & errors noted to date really pale by comparison.
   I do note something interesting that people should ponder....
         In the ground combat section (pg57) where the discussion about
damage occurs, there is a statement new from any early Traveller edition:

     "Regardless of a weapon's damage rating, however, a character normally
takes no more than three dice of damage from any single attack. (Some things
such as shotguns break this rule.)"

I would like to know the philosophy behind this, realizing that the book
further explains that higher damage attacks tend to blow through the target,
thus wasting energy.  
    Exceptions should be made to this, as this seems to be a perfectly
logical rule only in the case of weapons that depend on kinetic energy for
the majority of its damage power (i.e. slug weapons and lasers).  But blunt
damage (i.e fall from a 100 ft height) as well as weapons that do not depend
on kinetic energy per se (i.e. the high energy weapon types like plasma and
fusion guns which fire bolts of superheated plasma that not only deliver
kinetic, but also thermal energy that "splatters" a target when hit, thus
distributing its energy as damage more efficiently... as well as
<<theoretically>> disintegrators which cause on effect on the specific target
that disrupts the molecular cohesion of the target to cause its damage {thus,
not a high kinetic energy effect} etc. etc.   There may be more examples, but
I think people should be aware that there will be significant exceptions
aside from shotguns, they just may not be addressed until these weapons
become available down the timeline of the Third Imperium (and beyond).
Combat should be deadly, and on the practical side, it promotes roleplaying
not recreating Rambo In the 46th Century.
    Anyway, more thoughts later.









                                                                      Charles

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:14:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Maybe so, but our system might *play* pretty simple after we get finished. 
> But even if it does get a little more complex then, how about "Reasonable
> Skill-based Space Combat?"

Sounds like a good name.  :)  

I can't wait till we get to a point where we can thoroughly playtest this 
sucker. ;)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:

> Note that I have been collecting all the info on RSSC and condensing it into
> one file.  I've been keeping all the info that we've come to consensus on
> and organizing it.  Later today I'll post it.

Great!  I've been hoping someone would step forward and take over the 
duties of keeping track of what we all agree to!  Thanks! :)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 17:12:00 -0500
Subject: T4 Availability

  This past Monday, I went to my FNGS (Friendly Neighborhood
  Game Store) [Compleat Strategist, E.33d St. off 5h Av., NYC -
  plug plug] and looked around.  Now, this place bears a strong
  resemblance to someone's attic - very cluttered, but neatly
  stacked - just no indication of where anything is or how
  important it is.  But I like it.

  So, I go to where the Traveller material traditionally is, and
  I find Cyberpunk instead.  I then start walking up to the
  front counter, and as I pass the traditional location for
  GURPS, I find Traveller.  But no T4.  So, I get to the
  counter, and I look at the guy (who's on the phone).  He
  finished the call, and I say one word: "Traveller?"

  He says "Not yet".  I say "Gee, it was supposed to be in the
  stores by now, and they had the softcovers at GenCon." (The
  latter part of that based on what I've seen posted here - I
  can't afford to take time off to go to both Pennsic and
  GenCon.)  He looks upset; it seems that they "should" have
  gotten it before IG was selling it at GenCon.  He mutters
  something about phone calls, and I leave.

  Fast-forward about 27 hours.  I'm at home, and I'm pressing
  buttons on my phone.  A very pleasant young woman (at least by
  her voice) answers, and I explain that my FNGS seems to be a
  little upset, and I'm a little disappointed, because I don't
  have T4 yet, and neither do they.  I provide all sorts of
  pertinent information; she says that they _should_ have gotten
  it by now, and she'll get right on it, and oh by the way,
  there was a slight delay at the printers; you should have your
  signed hardcover within about a week.

  Fast-forward to Thursday, about 15:30.  I'm in my FNGS,
  walking up to the front counter.  Same person behind the
  counter as on Monday, but this time with a puzzled look on his
  face.  I put down a copy of T4 on the counter, and hand him my
  VISA card.  He rings up the sale, and I casually mention that
  if IG keeps responding the way they did when I called on
  Tuesday, they will make a _lot_ of friends.  I also told him
  that I had mentioned our conversation of Monday to them, and
  she said she'd get right on it.  He brightened, and said
  "that must be why she had all the information right there when
  I called."

  Conclusion:  IG has its act together.  Milky Ways (I like them
  better than Kudos) to them, and a strong hope that they'll
  keep it up.

  I was favorably impressed by T4; there are some minor
  production issues I wasn't ecstatic about - there were a
  couple of typography errors (as opposed to typos - I wasn't
  looking for them) and I think they would have done better to
  set the text in Optima instead of Helvetica.  I _do_ like the
  otherwise clean presentation (as contrasted with the
  gingerbread on much of the TNE material) of the material, the
  drawings aren't overly cluttered, and the color plates are
  _fantastic_ even if they _aren't_ the ships that we know and
  love from 1100.

  <snicker>  I'm looking at the pictures opp. p. 84 - that
  Air-raft _has_ to be a Cadillac...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are.


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 17:47:17 -0400
Subject: Help and T4 Availability

Hi, folks ...

I just got off the phone with Dream Wizards, and they've told me that
they got a grand total of two (yes, 2) copies of the T4 softcover.  Out
of 24 that they ordered.  Since the waiting list was about 8 or 10
people long, I didn't get a copy.

Therefore ... I could use some help getting QSDS cross-checked and some
definitive errata made up.  If any of you have the current (v1.4)
edition of QSDS (available from my web site, http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/
in lots of different formats), could you please cross-check what I wrote
with what was printed ... I'm mainly interested in the tables: which ones
were omitted, and which ones don't matche the tables in QSDS 1.4?

Thanks!
wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:20:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Preliminary Thoughts About T4

ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com wrote:

<<deletia>>
> 
>          In the ground combat section (pg57) where the discussion about
> damage occurs, there is a statement new from any early Traveller edition:
> 
>      "Regardless of a weapon's damage rating, however, a character normally
> takes no more than three dice of damage from any single attack. (Some things
> such as shotguns break this rule.)"
> 
> I would like to know the philosophy behind this, realizing that the book
> further explains that higher damage attacks tend to blow through the target,
> thus wasting energy. 
A heavy-damage weapon will either punch through the body or hit a bone on the way, 
breaking it. I think IG went with the simpler damage model to keep game complexity in 
line with the "classic Traveller" concept behind T4

<<deletia>>

>  There may be more examples, but
> I think people should be aware that there will be significant exceptions
> aside from shotguns, they just may not be addressed until these weapons
> become available down the timeline of the Third Imperium (and beyond).
> Combat should be deadly, and on the practical side, it promotes roleplaying
> not recreating Rambo In the 46th Century.

I can see exceptions for  flamethrowers, frag grenades, flechettes and heavy 
weapons.  What about a soldier hit by a tank's main-gun APDSFSDU round? Major and 
significant exceptions are needed.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:41:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> >Yep, the art is stunning. We've come a long from William Kieth's line drawings, eh? I
> 
> I like those line drawings!  Actually, I prefer them to a lot of the
> B&W work in T4.  It's not bad mind you, but I can take it or leave
> it myself.

I like WHK's work, too. 

> 
> > the Foss color art evoked a real sense of wonder. I kept asking myself: "What *is* this
> > thing? Who made it? What does it do?"
> 
> True, I wanna do some of those ships soon :-)

It _does_ bring out the desire to design, I see <g>

> 
> > The ship designs are okay; just what I would expect from a product called "Traveller." I
> > agree that designs would certainly evolve over the span of 1100+ years.
> 
> The ATV is just plain dumb, though.  Mag wheels?  No clearance in
> front?  Duh!

IG ain't perfect...<g>

> 
> And the lab ship drawing is goofy too.  It looks streamlined, and
> the loop part has no function.

I know the conveyances looked a little strange. WHK and Brad McDevitt drew most of the 
best-known Traveller images of these things, and they have been given into the care of 
another artist. Still, I'm not going to banish T4 to my shelf for minor artistic 
probs<g>.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #345
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 24 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 346

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: StarShip Troopers
         2. Re: Trade Rules WWW Page
         3. Re: T4 Availability
         4. Re: T4 Availability
         5. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit
         6. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Sensor Lock DM
         7. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack
         8. Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges
         9. More T4 comments
        10. RE: Tech Level
        11. RE: Tech Level
        12. Gun Combat: Specialties
        13. Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        14. Re: Gun Combat: Specialties
        15. Re: New Traveller Site (with trade rules)
        16. Going TL3...
        17. Re: RSSC: Where to post
        18. Re: UPP details
        19. Re: Random Thoughts
        20. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:48:04 -0700
Subject: Re: StarShip Troopers

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> Howdy all.
> 
> Just finished watching tonights episode of Entertainment Tonight.  They
> had a bit piece on Starship Troopers.
> 
> Director: Paul Verhoven
> Star: Some unknown guy
> His buddy:  Gary Buseies (?) son, looks a lot like pop.
> and some other dude from Melrose Place.
> 
> Costumes look okay, Dark Blue Ridged body armor.  Big hefty Bulpup
> rifles, Weird red Captian Planet shooting squares on armor.  Nasty
> looking drop ships.  No sign of drop capsules though.  Although lets face
> it thats a special effect shot so I'm not expecting to see that till
> January or May.  No sign of the bugs yet either, more Special Effects.

Good military-action flick potential, all right . . . but Hollywood is going to murder 
the philosophical groundwork that made the novel an enduring classic. Release date: 2 
July 1997. 

There is a Web site, BTW (don't know the URL)

> 
> Projected budget.
> 
> $100,000,000.  Thats one-hundred Million for those of you to shocked by
> the sight of that many zero's in a single figure.

I can hear Sergeant Jelly now (chapter 1, for those of you who haven't read the book 
yet): "Do you know how much you cost the guvment, after training . . . not to mention 
how much you overeat, better than a quarter million dollars. Toss in the two cents 
you're actually worth . . . "

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:05:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Trade Rules WWW Page

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Has anyone other than JD Burdick had trouble accessing my Traveller pages?
> 
> Has anyone successfully accessed my Traveller pages?

I got onto the first page, didn't try the second one. I'll comment in more detail at 
another time (busy)!

> 
> I'm trying to debug a problem here, so if you've tried (successfully or
> unsuccessfully) please send me a note.  And if you had a problem, the exact
> error message would be useful.

Good luck finding it, Rob.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:30:42 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com wrote:
><<deletia>>

>      If anyone has Arcane magazine, an excellent British RPG publication,
> their September 10 issue features the first review of T4, I haven't seen it,
> but would be interested in it.  Considering the full color cover, they
> probably liked it.

I saw an ad for _Arcane_ in the back of my copy of T4. Hmmm . . . 

>      Speaking of full-color, has anyone seen the newest printing for the Star
> Wars RPG???   Only one word.... WOW.  The error-free color gloss hardcover is
> impressive.  IG take note, this is the current standard of production.
>  Grognards beware, don't laugh... glitz sells (just look at the collectible
> card games).

I just got a peek at a copy of SW: I'm impressed with the artwork. Interior color is now 
_de regeur_ for game products. We've come a long way from three booklets in a 
black-red-white box, from b/w line art and boring typography. 

As a grognard (gaming since 1969), I _can't_ laugh at how pretty products have become. 
Hey, if a product sells well, _it will remain available and supported_! Look at all the 
less-than-pretty late 70s/early 80s RPGs that are no longer supported.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:35:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

>   looking for them) and I think they would have done better to
>   set the text in Optima instead of Helvetica.  I _do_ like the

Yes.  Optima or Myriad.  Some sans serif font that has a little
flairing to increase readability.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:20:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | To Hit

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> However we could also subtract some things:
> 
> Defending Ships Movement        (1 to 6)
> Defending Pilot's Asset         (1 to ??, around 10?)
> What else?
>   There was a computer program in CT that assisted in Evasion,
>   probably by randomly jinking the ship.  That should give you a DM
>   of 2 to 6.

In T4, at the beginning of the QSDS system tables section, the first 
table given is for "Additional Software."  Predict-1 through 5 are there, 
as are Evade 1-4, Gunner, Return Fire, Anti-Hijack, and Library.  [All 
other programs, presumably Jump-x, Maneuver-x, etc. are included with the 
ship when purchased - thus, no tables show their cost.]

So, yes, we do have Evade!

Good catch, Eris!


> Anyway, let's look at a couple of examples.
[Snipped a lot of Eris' hard work[G].]

> Unless, I'm missing something...By Jove I think we've got it! <g> 

I do believe so.

> This is the TO HIT Task, the Defending Ship still gets to apply it's
> defensive weapons, Sandcasters against Lasers, Laser Arrays against
> Missiles, and screens against other stuff.

Right-o!

> ps.  BTW, is it true that there isn't a Screens Skill in T4?  Ok then, what
> skill applies to screens then?    

Uhhmmm.....I dunno.  Nothing in T4 indicates that any such skill is 
necessary.  [at least, not that I can find.]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:22:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Sensor Lock DM

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

Just a quick note to say I agree with the inclusion of you Sensor's II: 
Weapons Lock addition.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:23:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Initiative Winner's Attack

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 08/23/96 at 10:49 AM,  James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said:
> 
> >Counter proposal:  gunnery skill + fire control rating - target's G rating
> > - target's pilot skill +/- sum of both ship's agility rating
> 
> Could somebody with T4 tell me if there *is* an agility rating anymore?  I
> can see using the Defending ship's agility to lower the TO HIT number.  I
> don't think the Attacking ship's agility would have enough effect to
> include it.

There is no agility rating in T4.  Just an M-Drive rating.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:29:46 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: Proposal 4 | Ranges

At 04:17 PM 8/23/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, James Garriss wrote:
>
>> Note that I have been collecting all the info on RSSC and condensing it into
>> one file.  I've been keeping all the info that we've come to consensus on
>> and organizing it.  Later today I'll post it.
>
>Great!  I've been hoping someone would step forward and take over the 
>duties of keeping track of what we all agree to!  Thanks! :)

You're welcome.  You and Eris have been doing most of the rules generating,
but I've been asking questions hoping to get some clarifications.  I posted
a boatload of questions on Fri and got precious few answers.  I hope you and
Eris attempt to answer each one and come to a consensus.

Did the summary I put out state things well?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:01:16 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: More T4 comments

Hi all,

A few comments on the grav vehicles.  10gs at TL12, "and compensate
for it so that passengers feel only a slight acceleration, or even
none at all."  Grav comp is 3gs at TL12.  1g is about like taking
off in an F-16 (plus real gravity, of course).  I don't like using
gs to describe atmosperic vehicles performance, it gets way too
confusing, IMO.

I'd rather see max speed (per atmosphere type) and some notes about
pulling gs in maneuver.  A fighter now can pull 9-ish gs, but can't
accelerate linearly at 9 gs.  Do they mean 10 gs _pulled_ before it
disintegrates, or 10gs linear acceleration?  See what I mean.

I have a related idea on antigrav for your perusal:  AG works to
provide propulsion now, right (air rafts, speeders, grav tanks,
etc.)?  With some hand waving we could allow the lateral propulsion
value (perpendicular to the gravity gradient) drop of rapidly with
distance from the surface.  The idea is that you'd need nearby mass
in quantity around (in front of, behind, etc.) the craft to use it
for lateral movement.  This would mean that grav vehicles could
still get to orbit, but the lateral maneuver would be maximized as
altitude is reduced.  Grav tanks would be maneuverable at NOE, but
slow pigs at high altitude.  Seems like a neat way to make sense of
the way grav vehicles are vs. space craft, etc..

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 07:33 +0100
Subject: RE: Tech Level

What is the tech level (highest and average) in Year 0?

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 23:23:10 -0800
Subject: RE: Tech Level

On 24 Aug 96 at 7:33, J D Burdick spewed:

> What is the tech level (highest and average) in Year 0?
> 

There's been a lot of discussion in the early weeks of IG's presence 
on the list as far as the Maximum...

Imperium=12
Other Pocket Empires=11, giving the Imperium some substantial 
edges...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 07:27:25 -0400
Subject: Gun Combat: Specialties

Gun Combat is a Cascade Skill divided into four categories:  Pistol, Rifle,
Shotgun, SMG.  Quoting from T4 page 37:

"When a cascade skill is obtained, one of its subskills must be chosen as a
specialty."

So if I get a Gun Combat skill, I could choose Rifle (1) as my specialty.

"...that expertise in this specialty can be used in place of any other
subskill in the cascade skill, at one lower level of expertise."

So when I get Rifle (1), I also get Pistol (0), Shotgun (0), and SMG (0).
And if get another Gun Combat and choose Rifle again, it goes to (2) and the
other three go to (1).

So one would naturally think that when a PC chooses a specialty (ie Rifle),
he would always continue to select that specialty, knowing that all the
other specialties are only one level behind.  Agree?

But get this:

"Should a character picks [sic] up another subskill within the same cascade
skill, his first point in that new skill is level-1, his second point
level-2, and so on, as normal."

Hey, isn't this really, REALLY stupid?  If after I pick Rifle to be my
specialty the first time I get Gun Combat, why in the world would I pick
anything else as a specialty the next time around?!?  If I pick Pistol the
second time I get Gun Combat, it would go to level (1), but the other three
would remain the same.  But if I pick Rifle again, then Pistol (and the
other two) go to level (1).  Anybody else get what I'm driving at?  Am I
understanding these rules right?  Anybody from IG want to clarify this logic
(or lack thereof)?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 07:27:28 -0400
Subject: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

Laser Pistol and Laser Rifle are listed in the weapons section, but there is
no "laser" skill.  Can one presume that acquiring the Gun Combat specialty
skill of "pistol" enables you to also use laser pistols, and acquiring
"rifle" enables you to also use laser rifles?  And what skill would enable
you to use energy weapons (ie FGMP, PGMP)?

In the weapons section there are precious few military weapons (ACR and
Stable Gun Pistol).  So do characters in non-military careers who choose
Rifle learn to fire miliary rifles as well as non-military rifles?  I really
don't like that!  One of the defining characteristics, IMHO, about being in
the military is learning to use advanced weaponry that the rest of the world
rarely even sees (ie Gauss Rifle, FGMP) except in news clips.

Given that artillery and heavy weapons are skills, why aren't there any
weapons listed for these skills?  

This book really skimps on weapons.  Does anyone know if a more
comprehensive list of weapons will appear in the Central Supply Catalog?  If
not, let's all petition IG loudly for more weapons.  I'm missing my gauss
rifle with RAM grenade launcher already.  :-)

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:56:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Specialties

James Garriss wrote:
 
>"Should a character picks [sic] up another subskill within the same 
>cascade skill, his first point in that new skill is level-1, his second 
>point level-2, and so on, as normal."
> 
>Hey, isn't this really, REALLY stupid?  If after I pick Rifle to be my
>specialty the first time I get Gun Combat, why in the world would I pick
>anything else as a specialty the next time around?!?  If I pick Pistol 
>the second time I get Gun Combat, it would go to level (1), but the 
>other three would remain the same.  But if I pick Rifle again, then 
>Pistol (and the other two) go to level (1).  Anybody else get what I'm 
>driving at?  Am I understanding these rules right?  Anybody from IG want 
>to clarify this logic (or lack thereof)?

If I get this right your basic problem is not that a character with a 
rifle of 4 has a pistol and shotgun of 2, something I would refer to as 
basic firearms familiarization.  Once you start to learn about one type 
of firearm you can't help but become passingly familiar with other types, 
not saying that you've ever used one but rather that you've developed a 
basic understanding of firearm mechanics and could probably figure out 
how to shot it and where to point the gun to get the effect you desire 
fairly rapidly.

Your problem is that upper line which seems to indicate that a character 
with a rifle of 4 and pistol shotgun of 2 who decides to throw specialty 
points into his pistol, he's become a cop or something, suddenly has to 
spend his first pistol point to get a pistol of 1 when he already had a 
pistol of 2.  

This is what your basic problem is with the system as presented right?

Gut instict tells me that's a typo, common sence would dictate that the 
character in the above example would spend that first point and get a 
pistol of 3 not 1.  Personally I'd ignore IG's text as it seems to be a 
boo-boo on their behalf and substitue you're own ruling.  That is pistol 
become a 3 not 1.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 02:47:36 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: New Traveller Site (with trade rules)

Moin Rob Prior,

> I've just uploaded and verified my school's Traveller site.  At the moment it
> is very sketchy, just an intro page and my trade rules.  More information
> will follow as my students get a chance to work on it during the year.

	looks ok, but it would be nicer to have these tables finished.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 09:29:15 -0800
Subject: Going TL3...

Well...

Suzette (suzd@goodnet.com) and I are going low tech for the next 
week.  Up to a cabin in the rim country here in Arizona.  Not only 
will I be unable to check e-mail for a week (due to lack of a PC), I 
won't even have a phone or television...  (YEESSS!!!!!)

You can still send posts, comments, e-mails, etc. to me at 
sdollar@goodnet.com, Just don't expect a response until next 
Saturday...  I will still be getting the digests, so I wil be able to 
catch up.  

Or you can send flames to the kill file of my choice...  :-P

TTFN for now, friends...

I intend to get a lot of gaming in.  By the time I get back, I should 
have most of a new campaign written, and probably played a few games 
of Fifth Frontier War & Imperium  (see, I'll also have no cats for a 
week either...)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:07:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: Where to post

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Christopher Weuve wrote:

> Actually, I suggest exactly the opposite -- GDW-beta is where the RSSC 
> discussion should take place, just like the GDW-beta list is where all the 
> hard-core design issues (e.g., the ship design sequences) have been discussed.  
> Also, this will make it easier both for people to sort messages and for those 
> who want to discuss T4/TNE without a hundred messages about proposed sensor 
> rules and such.

Derek Wildstar made the same obersvation in a private email, and Eris and 
I are currently considering whether it is worthwhile to move the 
discussions yet again since it appears that everything is done with the 
pre-playtesting phase...or so it seems to me.

The problem came about when, several months ago, I asked someone what the 
"GDW-Beta" list was all about (via private email - this was before I 
had subscribed to it).  He replied that it was for "gearhead" 
discussions.  I asked what that meant, and whether I, as someone who 
enjoys designing rules, should subscribe.  He replied that, unless I 
enjoyed designing starships down to the last bolt it probably wasn't the 
list for me.  So, I didn't subscribe until the Starships for T4 firestorm 
was moved there.

>From that private e-mail discussion, I have carried with me a feeling that 
GDW-Beta wasn't for something like RSSC, which is decidedly non-technial 
and non-"gearhead."  

However, Derek just yesterday told me tha the true purpose of GDW-beta is 
the hashing out of rules, and that it was created in order to move those 
discussions off of the more general TML.  Since it is Derek's list, I 
assume he knows whereof he speaks. :)

So, in the future, I'll definitely start such discussions in GDW-Beta.  The 
only question is whether it is worthwhile to move RSSC there at this 
point, since there may not be too many additional posts made on the topic.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:12:28 -0700
Subject: Re: UPP details

David,

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post.....  I really wasn't talking about the sector listing, as that pop. 
index makes it pretty obvious.  What I was refering to though, was when an individual system was 
flushed out.  In that case,  there is no standard way to distinguish between a pop of 0 meaning that 
there's nobody living there or 1-9 inhabitants (think of the star trek episode "Mudd's Women).  

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:38:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

Sorry 'bout the delay, I've been having to much of a real life lately.  Which 
also means that I don't have a copy of T4 yet.  If anyone in the SE Michigan area
could point me to someone carrying it, I would appreciate it.  The last time that 
I went to the Ryders in Canton, the game section was pretty dry.....

Anyhow, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> T4 does have DMs, just like in previous versions of Traveller.  However,
> they do seem to be less numerous than in CT, since there is no DM matrix
> for weapons vs. armor now that penetration is taken into account (that
> is, it is now possible to score a hit but not do any damage because the
> armor worn by the defender absorbed the attack).
> 
> Just looking at combat, there are still DMs for range, concealment,
> darkness, increased/decreased damage attacks, attacks to disarm, evading,
> aimed fire, and more.

That doesn't sound real good in light of what I was pointing out earlier:   a DM
not being the same to different target die rolls.  For instance, a +4 to a target
of 7 (yeah, I'm sure these aren't the right terms) on 2d6 is a lot more significant 
then on 3d6.  It would seem that if the _task_ system was defined well enough, 
that these would change the difficulty and be an unfair adjustment to the die roll.

Don't get me wrong, I will pick T4 up, and put more than this ideal thinking towards 
it.

MAN

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:46:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

James Garriss wrote:
> 
> Laser Pistol and Laser Rifle are listed in the weapons section, but there is
> no "laser" skill.  Can one presume that acquiring the Gun Combat specialty
> skill of "pistol" enables you to also use laser pistols, and acquiring
> "rifle" enables you to also use laser rifles?

That would seem to be the case here. 

> And what skill would enable you to use energy weapons (ie FGMP, PGMP)?

Battle Dress, as long as the firing character is in battle dress and the weapon (say a 
FGMP-12) _requires_ the firer to be in Battle Dress. The skill definition for Battle 
Dress skill, pp 39, says "The ability to operate specially armored vacuum suits designed 
especially for combat, including all the sensors and weaponry built into such a suit."

I'd argue that since operating a PGMP-12 requires the strength augmentation found in 
(T4's augmented) battle dress armor, it is effectively part of the armor. Therefore,  
the battle dress skill, as taught to TL-12 troops, would include the ability to fire the 
PGMP-12.

Of course, this doesn't address the question of using HE weapons outside of battle 
dress, such as the compensated TL-14/15 weapons.

> 
> In the weapons section there are precious few military weapons (ACR and
> Stable Gun Pistol).  So do characters in non-military careers who choose
> Rifle learn to fire miliary rifles as well as non-military rifles?  I really
> don't like that!

There may some merit to splitting off the "Rifle" part of Gun Combat skill into Combat 
Rifleman (remember _Mercenary_?) for selective fire combat rifles (CPR and gauss ACRs, 
"assault rifles," and SAW/GPMGs); Rifle, for semiauto and other "civilian" rifles; Laser 
for all small arms and SAW-type lasers; and High Energy Weapons for PGMP/FGMP weapons.

> One of the defining characteristics, IMHO, about being in
> the military is learning to use advanced weaponry that the rest of the world
> rarely even sees (ie Gauss Rifle, FGMP) except in news clips.

Not to mention SAW/GPMG, heavy machine gun, mortar, guided missile . . .<g

> 
> Given that artillery and heavy weapons are skills, why aren't there any
> weapons listed for these skills?

THAT was disappointing . . . listing the stats on a tracked AFV and not giving stats on 
the main gun, leaving it an impossibly vague "laser or missile launcher." What do I do 
when I want to run a military scenario that calls for an armed G-Carrier? Arm it with a 
laser rifle?

> 
> This book really skimps on weapons.  Does anyone know if a more
> comprehensive list of weapons will appear in the Central Supply Catalog?  If
> not, let's all petition IG loudly for more weapons.  I'm missing my gauss
> rifle with RAM grenade launcher already.  :-)

My RC players will scream if I take away their battledress and  laser-guided tac 
missiles, claymore mines, orbital-bomb, er, _strike_ (this _is_ the RC, after 
all!) missiles, etc. ;) My players really like military/mercenary adventures so I'm a 
little stuck converting to T4 until I see some. I'm going to send IG a letter asking 
them to include LOTS and LOTS of weapons in CSC!



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #346
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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 25 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 347

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: More T4 comments
         2. RSSC: Where to Post II
         3. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         4. Re: Random Thoughts
         5. Re: Comments about T4
         6. Re: Sending to lists and revised reprint.
         7. Re: Random Thoughts
         8. T4 has arrived!
         9. They call him Muecke
        10. Re: Comments about T4
        11. Re: Random Thoughts
        12. Re: T4 has arrived!
        13. Re: They call him Muecke
        14. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        15. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        16. MT Traveller errata sheet
        17. Cold Fusion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:06:44 -0700
Subject: Re: More T4 comments

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
><<deletia>>
> 
> I have a related idea on antigrav for your perusal:  AG works to
> provide propulsion now, right (air rafts, speeders, grav tanks,
> etc.)?  With some hand waving we could allow the lateral propulsion
> value (perpendicular to the gravity gradient) drop of rapidly with
> distance from the surface.  The idea is that you'd need nearby mass
> in quantity around (in front of, behind, etc.) the craft to use it
> for lateral movement.  This would mean that grav vehicles could
> still get to orbit, but the lateral maneuver would be maximized as
> altitude is reduced.  Grav tanks would be maneuverable at NOE, but
> slow pigs at high altitude.  Seems like a neat way to make sense of
> the way grav vehicles are vs. space craft, etc..

On the surface, I agree with your bit of hand waving, Merrick. It makes scientific 
sense, given that gravitational forces between two bodies is inversely proportional to 
their distance from one another.

However, there is a problem: _spaceships_ also use a gravitic-based technology now for 
normal-space propulsion, and this idea has problems if it is extended to spaceships. 

It would also have some interesting tactical implications for lift armor deployment from 
orbit. The lower maneuverability of a lift vehicle deploying from orbit would make it an 
easier target for aerospace defense troops. Granted, tanks would be hard to hurt if hit, 
but eventually anything that can be hit can be killed. Dropping a tank unit against 
significant aerospace opposition would demand credible decoys to get them past the 
defenses, just as a meteoric assault does now, because now drop capsules and grav tanks 
are going to be (in relative terms) easy ballistic targets at high altitides.

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


> 
> -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 16:59:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RSSC: Where to Post II

Welp, Eris and I have agreed that the RSSC should be moved to GDW-Beta.  
I'm sorry about the earlier switch, but I didn't know the true purpose of 
GDW-Beta at the time.  Now that I do, we'll do it right. :)

Anyone who doesn't yet subscribe to GDW-Beta and who wishes to 
participate in the RSSC design/debate process should email Derek Wildstar 
(wildstar@qrc.com) and tell him you want to be added to the mailing list.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 17:10:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> My RC players will scream if I take away their battledress and  laser-guided tac 
> missiles, claymore mines, orbital-bomb, er, _strike_ (this _is_ the RC, after 
> all!) missiles, etc. ;) My players really like military/mercenary adventures so I'm a 
> little stuck converting to T4 until I see some. I'm going to send IG a letter asking 
> them to include LOTS and LOTS of weapons in CSC!

While I'm not known for my military campaigns, I do like to have a good 
range of weapons available.  You just never know when you'll need a TL 7 
Light Howitzer. :)  I guess I'm just spoiled because I'm used to having 
the huge variety available if one owns a great deal of CT products.  

Looking at T4 objectively, it is a complete RPG system.  One could 
certanly get by with what is there.  It is no less complete than, say 
first edition Shadowrun.  But if I don't keep that perspective, and 
realize what it /should/ be compared to, I end up comparing it to the 
whole CT system, and I feel like there are many huge chunks missing.

I expect the CSC to have everything in it.  The blurb about it does say 
that it will collect all of the already-published Traveller equipment 
into one place, and add new stuff as well.  

But if that's not the case, I'll be mighty disappointed.


- -Joe (Who won't feel comfortable running a T4 campaign until all the 
products scheduled for release this year are available.)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 17:21:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Mark Nordstrand wrote:

> Sorry 'bout the delay, I've been having to much of a real life lately.  Which 

Mark, that is totally inexcusable.  I've been meaning to post a complaint 
here, and you've given me the opportunity.  It is my contention that 
those who participate on this list should not have real lives, especially 
on weekends.  I'm tired of putting up with the drop in message traffic 
over the weekend.  And it is time you all did something about it! :)  
Just because you all have lives doesn't give you the right to ruin my 
non-life. :D


> also means that I don't have a copy of T4 yet.  If anyone in the SE Michigan area
> could point me to someone carrying it, I would appreciate it.  The last time that 
> I went to the Ryders in Canton, the game section was pretty dry.....

Here in NE IL, I understand the game won't be available until Monday or 
Tuesday ("Wednesday at the very latest," I was told by one store).  
[Yeah, I'm gonna buy another softcover copy.  I've already trashed my 
first one, and I'd like a nicer softcover copy.  Yup, that'll make four 
copies sold to me, including the two MIA hardbacks.  IG must love me.[G]]


> That doesn't sound real good in light of what I was pointing out earlier:   a DM
> not being the same to different target die rolls.  For instance, a +4 to a target
> of 7 (yeah, I'm sure these aren't the right terms) on 2d6 is a lot more significant 
> then on 3d6.  It would seem that if the _task_ system was defined well enough, 
> that these would change the difficulty and be an unfair adjustment to the die roll.

Your comments, like last time, are absolutely true.  Nonetheless, I have 
run a few T4 combats now, and the system seems to work well enough.   The 
range of weapons and armor seems to be the biggest sticking point.  With 
the new way of figuring armor effects, and the paucity of weapons, it is 
difficult to come up with very many combinations that will make for 
exciting combat.

I tried using two people (777777 each), each with 1 level of Pistol 
skill, each with Flexible armor (armor rating: 5), and each with 
cP003's (damage rating: 5).  It was a boring combat.  The only way to 
spice it up was to try for double damage, but that made it almost 
impossible to hit.

I prefer combat with armor value:weapon damage ratio of 1:2 or so.  At 
this point, that just leaves Cloth (armor value of 1) and Body Pistols, 
Staple Guns, or Submachineguns.  [Yeah, I could use "Diplo," but that 
didn't seem like a type of armor that would be very popular in my 
campaigns.]

We need more armor and more weapons!  


> Don't get me wrong, I will pick T4 up, and put more than this ideal 
> thinking towards it.

I look forward to hearing what you think whenever you do get T4.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 17:23:35 
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

> [Talking about strange looking ATVs]
> that at TL 11-12 they no longer require the rugged look in order for
> something to /be/ rugged. :)

  Well given current trends, maybe it is just the yuppie version, comes complete
with two cans of spray on mud and a bull bar for those offroad adventures -
onto the footpath! :-)

BFN,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 17:39:00 
Subject: Re: Sending to lists and revised reprint.

Hello Charles, on Aug 21 you wrote:

> Hi all.  I have a couple of questions, one stupid and one (relatively)
> intelligent:
>
  I can answer the 'stupid' one, but not the intelligent one, hmm, maybe
that says something. :-)

> 1) First the dumb question:  when I send to the list, should I respond
> "yes" to "reply to all recipients?",
>
  Well, "all receipients" would probably have your message going to both the
list and a second copy to yourself as a Blind Carbon Copy (BCC) recipient. A
"reply to sender" will get it to everyone once from most mail programs. The
digests are automagically generated for the digest receipients from anything
sent to traveller@mpgn.com (and traveller@ns.mpgn.com too it seems), so they
won't miss out.

  Can't answer your second question about reprints, but I can guess. I doubt
that IG would announce it now even if it is planned, as it would cause
people to wait for the next printing, so leaving their current one on
shelves and not selling. We will probably first hear about it when it hits 
the streets.

BFN,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 16:55:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

>> Sorry 'bout the delay, I've been having to much of a real life lately.
Which 
>
>Mark, that is totally inexcusable.  I've been meaning to post a complaint 
>here, and you've given me the opportunity.  It is my contention that 
>those who participate on this list should not have real lives, especially 
>on weekends.  I'm tired of putting up with the drop in message traffic 
>over the weekend.  And it is time you all did something about it! :)  
>Just because you all have lives doesn't give you the right to ruin my 
>non-life. :D

Hear, Hear!  No more lives allowed forn list-members...or we'll send the men
in black after you...we know where you live....:) :)

>Here in NE IL, I understand the game won't be available until Monday or 
>Tuesday ("Wednesday at the very latest," I was told by one store).  
>[Yeah, I'm gonna buy another softcover copy.  I've already trashed my 
>first one, and I'd like a nicer softcover copy.  Yup, that'll make four 
>copies sold to me, including the two MIA hardbacks.  IG must love me.[G]]

Feel lucky your local game store plans on carrying it.  I went o my local
one, and asked about Traveller, only to be told that the company that
produces Traveller has gone out of business.  So, I told him all about
Imperium, and how Traveller debuted at Gen Con.  Well, then I received the
reply that 'I went to Gen Con and didn't see anything about it...if it comes
out we'll get it...'.  Needless to say I may try and find it elsewhere
(anyone know of a store in the GTA with Traveller in stock?)

>> Don't get me wrong, I will pick T4 up, and put more than this ideal 
>> thinking towards it.
>
>I look forward to hearing what you think whenever you do get T4.

BTW, when I get T4 Im gonna be posting my thoughts on it as well.

Thanks,

Peter Miller
       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:38:59 -0500
Subject: T4 has arrived!

Well, T4 srrived in south Mississippi Friday I guess.  I got my softback
copy today and have just started reading it.  More comments will follow.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 02:07:31 +0000 ()
Subject: They call him Muecke

Hy folks,

	here comes one of my ship designs, I leave it formatted as
	HTML, and hope to upload it somewhere soon. The deckplan
	is available as XFig source or GIF via email.

	I hope to you like idea and enjoy on the scenarios for MT or TNE.

By Michael

PS : perhaps somebody like to improve grammar and spelling.
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

<Title>	Mosquito Scout Cruiser
</Title>
<Center>
<H1>	Mosquito Scout Cruiser
</H1>

<IMG SRC = "mos1.gif" ALT="Deckplan">
</Center>

<hr>

<H2>	Design
</H2>
	The Mosquito Scout Cruiser was designed by ARW, as a study before
	they designed the well known Kinunir. The Imperator stoped ARW
	studys as he realiesed that the TL17 AI was build with a similar
	aproach as the Cimberlayne chips. So ARW limiteded the AI for
	the Kinunir's what made a lot of well know problems, and later
	stoped military vessels at all.
<P>
	The mosquito is flying with reduced crew and is designed to
	work without a crew at all.
	Only 4 of them where build, one got mad at 1074 and destroyed
	several ships and a starport, before it was killed, the remaing
	3 served in Stephanons house fleet.

<H2>	General M|cke
</H2>
	When virus arived two of them changed their motivations by
	the virus attack and got destroyed. The last one refused
	to fly for quite a while rethinking life and death,
	its origin and aims. It has reprogrammed it self
	and is now known as one of the brains behind some vampire
	activity. His nicname is general "M|cke" as he often join
	fleet with much larger ships.
<P>
	His first action was to remotivate some other ships to continue
	war against Lucan, the so called Doomslayer strains. He later
	stoped remotivating other ships as he saw the resulting
	destruction. 

<H2>	Scenarios
</H2>
<ul>
<li>	1073 - The group get hired by Ling Standart to rogue ship design
<li>	1074 - The group get hired by a solomani (or zhodani if you prefer)
	intelligence agency to deliver a chip containing Akiri-Kurosavas
	famous films to a starport, where a new warship should arive. They
	should place this film inside the starships computer.
<li>	1075 - The group should visit ARW to give a decrete 97 that ARW
	has to stop Mosquito studys. They should deliver the remaining 3
	ships to a hidden naval base, and ensure that non of them get
	mad.
<li>	1132 - The group is serving in Stephanons fleet as virus arived.
<li>	1170 - M|cke visits the regency, he claims that he has a a grandchild
	of Stephanon on board. He is without a fleet and avoid fight.
<li>	1203 - M|cke visits Upsala, Montezuma, Kide and Bika with a trade
	fleet :
<p>
	2 Bastien + 1 Fiery (Empire), 3 brand new Jayhawks (Puppetier),
	1 Lab Ship + 2 brand new Eakau (Parents), 1 Chysanthemum (Peacemaker),
	1 Zhdits (Human crewed).
<p>	All ships have meat on board, so as long as nobody visits one (and
	sees the robots working) they look like a normal free trader fleet.
	The fleet will offer to join on a tour to Massila - a big profit.
	He is also interested in RC, and would travell there if RC offers
	free flight. Camille Allea Alkhalikoi is still on board.
</ul>
<hr>
<pre>
General Data:
	Displacement :   300 dt     	Tech Level :    15
	Length       :  60.1 meters 	Volume     :  4200 m3
	Hull         :  1510 m2     	Armor      :    44
	Mass         :  1705 tons   	Load       :    29 dt

Engineering Data:
	Hull             : 25 m3, 1.8 dt, 388 tons
	Power plant      : 760 MW, 202 m3, 14.5 dt, 259 tons
	Jump performance : 4 (Drive 210 m3, 15.0 dt, Mass 30 tons)
	G-Rating         : 4G (Thusters 600 MW, 60 m3)
	G-Turns          : 30 (86 using jump fuel) 18.8 m3 of fuel each
	Contra Graph     : 30 MW, 90 m3, 6.4 dt, 60 tons
	Fuel scope       : 3.9 m3, 24 hours to refine 1612 m3, 115.2 dt

Electronics:
	Controll system  : Synaptic linked 0.30 MW, 4.2 m3, 0.42 tons
	Computer         : 3*Fb Synaptic 3 MW, 30.0 m3, 6 tons
	Avionics         : TL 8+ 0.1 MW 
	Commo            : Radio 30,000 km 1.0 MW 
	                 : Laser 1000 AU 0.6 MW 
	                 : Maser 1000 AU 0.3 MW 
	Sensors          : Aktive EMS 300,000 km 15.0 MW 3.0 m3 6.0 tons 
	                 : EMS Jammer 300,000 km 30.0 MW 3.0 m3 6.0 tons 
	                 : Passive EMS 30,000 km 0.1 MW 4.2 m3 3.6 tons 
	                 : EMS Masking 4.2 MW 84.0 m3 42.0 tons 
	Controlls        : 4 Workstations 28.0 m3 0.2 tons 
	                 : 6 Crewstations 7.0 m3 0.1 tons 
	                 : 2 Master fire directors 6.0 m3 6.0 tons 

Armament:
	Weapons          : 400 Mj PPC 11.1 MW 254.0 m3 278.0 tons 
	                 : Damage 10:100 20:100 40:60 80:30 
	                 : 2 150 Mj Tuneable Lasers 4.2 MW 42.0 m3 57.0 tons 
	                 : Damage 10:1/10-31 20:1/10-31 40:1/10-31 80:1/10-31 
	                 : 2 750 Mj X-Ray Lasers 4.9 MW 42.0 m3 72.0 tons 
	                 : Damage 10:1/22-68 20:1/13-41 40:1/7-21 80:1/3-10 
	Deffence         : 2 Sandcasters 1.0 MW 42.0 m3 
	                 : Meson Screen PV240 9.0 MW 180.0 m3 135.0 tons 

Accomodations:
	Life Support     : Extendet 0.22 MW, 17.4 m3, 17 tons for 2172 m3
	Crew             : 8 small staterooms 28.0 m3 2.0 tons 
	                 : 2 large staterooms 48.0 m3 2.0 tons 
	                 : 2 common area 70.0 m3 
	Airlocks         : 3 - 42.0 m3 0.2 tons 
	Cargo            : 2 large cargo hatches 
	                 : 419 m3 29 dt

Notes:
	The left cargo bay currently contains 6 small staterrooms containers,
	while the rigth one is a large conference room.
</pre>

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:12:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Comments about T4

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, James Dempsey wrote:

[Discussion of the T4 picture of an ATV]

>   Well given current trends, maybe it is just the yuppie version, comes complete
> with two cans of spray on mud and a bull bar for those offroad adventures -
> onto the footpath! :-)

You mean they still have yuppies thousands of years from now?!?!  I 
thought for sure the sub-species would have died out by then. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 22:25:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Peter Miller wrote:

> Hear, Hear!  No more lives allowed forn list-members...or we'll send the men
> in black after you...we know where you live....:) :)

Whoo-hoo!  Another TMLer without a life!  :)


> Feel lucky your local game store plans on carrying it.  I went o my local

I guess I should feel lucky, but most of them won't be.  Games+ (the 
store I won't go to anymore because of their rediculous stance on the 
parodyish RPG "HoL," mentioned on this list a while back) will indeed be 
carrying it.  Gamers Paradise will not be carrying it, but will order it 
for me.  The comics shops, however, won't carry it and didn't offer to 
order it.  I think that's pretty bad news for IG.

Then again, we'll be going to The Game Guild up in Lake Geneva next 
weekend.  Considering who owns the store, they should have a rather large 
display of T4. :)


> one, and asked about Traveller, only to be told that the company that
> produces Traveller has gone out of business.  So, I told him all about
> Imperium, and how Traveller debuted at Gen Con.  Well, then I received the
> reply that 'I went to Gen Con and didn't see anything about it...if it comes
> out we'll get it...'.  

[sigh]  If he really went to Gen Con, he probably hung out at the TSR and 
Games Workshop areas.  :P  It's not like IG had a huge booth or anything, 
but they certainly were there and they did have their table filled with 
T4 books (and a mint copy of The Traveller Book (hardbound)).  

Sounds like this person has his head buried in the sand (or somewhere 
else). 

I wish these idiotic games store owners and clerks would get with it and 
realize that they depend on /customers/, which means offering those 
customers what they want, not what the owner wants to sell them.  It's 
great to hear the good stories about games stores from the TML members, 
otherwise I'd dispair for our hobby.
  

> BTW, when I get T4 Im gonna be posting my thoughts on it as well.

I am very anxious for everyone here to get T4 and read it!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 22:24:49 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 has arrived!

On 08/24/96 at 07:38 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>Well, T4 srrived in south Mississippi Friday I guess.  I got my softback
>copy today and have just started reading it.  More comments will follow.

Hey!  No fair!  <g> Here in northwest Florida, it still hasn't arrived, and
yes I checked today too!

I've been pestering two stores, I plan to buy a softcover from the one that
gets it first.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:40:55 -0700
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Hy folks,
> 
>         here comes one of my ship designs, I leave it formatted as
>         HTML, and hope to upload it somewhere soon. The deckplan
>         is available as XFig source or GIF via email.
> 
>      I hope to you like idea and enjoy on the scenarios for MT or TNE.

I'll buy that deck plan in Gif format for a dollar.  Give me tonight and 
I'll check your spelling and grammer. and ship it back your way.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:16:12 PST
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

In mail you write:

> I'd argue that since operating a PGMP-12 requires the strength
> augmentation found in (T4's augmented) battle dress armor, it is
> effectively part of the armor.

I don't think it's the *strength* the you need. Way back in the 3
little books days, the image that sprang into my mind was that trying
to use a PGMP/FGMP *without* battledress was a good way to kill
yourself. While it';s mostly dangerous "downrange", being *near* one of
those when it is fired ought to be good for some damage if you aren't
armored. 

In support of this viewpoint, I note that I'v'e never seen an example
of something like a "pintle mount" for a FGMP! It's too dangerous. Sort
of like a recoiless rifle, the backblast is kinda unhealthy. Only in
this case, it's more along the lines of the "muzzle blast". :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:03:04 PST
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

In mail you write:

> In the weapons section there are precious few military weapons (ACR and
> Stable Gun Pistol).  So do characters in non-military careers who choose
> Rifle learn to fire miliary rifles as well as non-military rifles?  I really
> don't like that!  One of the defining characteristics, IMHO, about being in
> the military is learning to use advanced weaponry that the rest of the world
> rarely even sees (ie Gauss Rifle, FGMP) except in news clips.

Well, the energy weapons should require a different skill or skills.
But regular rifles shouldn't require any real skill difference. I
leraned to shoot on a 22. And shooting everything from a muzzle-loading
flintlock to an SKS or MAK-90 is the same skill. *Loading* a muzzle
loader, or maintaining *any* weapon breaks down into different skills,
but just shooting them is the same (except for the kick).

Full auto fire may be different, I have yet to get a chance to fire one
of those. But single shot is single shot.

> Given that artillery and heavy weapons are skills, why aren't there any
> weapons listed for these skills?  

The biggest difference shooting a laser weapon will be that it doesn't
"drop", but you'll still need to make sight adjustments for range
(unless you are willing to always have the shot hit low, by setting the
sight and "bore" parallel).

So as long as the laser rifle/gauss rifle/whatever has been sighted in
ok, you should be able to shoot it ok. Fusion and plasma weapons are a
different matter, but they are "heavy weapons". 

So short of having a seperate skill for every single weapon in the
book, I'd say that just "rifle" and "pistol" are a reasonable
compromise. It'll sure help playability.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:18:40 +1300
Subject: MT Traveller errata sheet

Hi there,

Dose anyone out there know if there is an errata sheet for MT? I've
recently got the system and am having particular trouble in ship
construction (ie. determination of control points). Is there a spreadsheet
that can do this?

Any help greatfully accecpted.


PS. T4 should be down-under in 3-4 weeks :-x (holding breath!)



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 00:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cold Fusion

So, does anyone know what's the deal with the cold fusion?  At TL 12, the
smallest possible starship fusion plant is 0.4 Displacement Tons, ie 5.6
cubic meters. 

OK, fine, but we also have descriptions of "cold fusion" plants which 
power the grav vehicles and ground cars.  Given that the 4 ton (metric 
ton, not disp. tons) grav vehicle and the 1.5 ton ground car can both use 
cold fusion plants I doubt that they take up 5.6 cubic meters.

So, what are the stats for cold fusion plants, and why aren't they being 
used in starships.


- -John jsnead@netcom.com





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #347
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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 25 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 348

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: They call him Muecke
         2. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         3. Re: MT Traveller errata sheet
         4. Re: They call him Muecke
         5. Re: They call him Muecke
         6. Re: Random Thoughts
         7. Re: Cold Fusion
         8. Space Yuppies (Was: Comments about T4)
         9. Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)
        10. Re: Cold Fusion
        11. The Yuppie Character
        12. Re: More T4 comments
        13. Re: They call him Muecke
        14. Re: Cold Fusion
        15. Re: T4 availability
        16. Re: MT Traveller errata sheet
        17. Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking
        18. Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:37:51 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

Moin Derek Stanley,

> I'll buy that deck plan in Gif format for a dollar.  Give me tonight and 
> I'll check your spelling and grammer. and ship it back your way.

	I've uploaded it to http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
	in traveller/mosquito both GIF and XFig source are available.

	BTW as it has tradition in traveller to spread german words
	in source and rulebooks, you can leave "M|cke" anchanged.
	And just a question : is ARW "Algemeine Raumschiffwerft"
	the original name of the company making the first Kinunir
	or just a translation ?

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:49:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In support of this viewpoint, I note that I'v'e never seen an example
> of something like a "pintle mount" for a FGMP! It's too dangerous. Sort
> of like a recoiless rifle, the backblast is kinda unhealthy. Only in
> this case, it's more along the lines of the "muzzle blast". :-)

Oooh...that makes for a nice image.  Perhaps when/if Marc is able to make 
a Traveller movie, one of the characters can die a glorious death while 
holding off the enemies as the rest of the good guys escape, by operating a 
FGMP without battledress. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:52:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: MT Traveller errata sheet

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, B Lynch-Blosse wrote:

> Dose anyone out there know if there is an errata sheet for MT? I've

Hoo, boy is there an errata sheet! :)

Check the web-site at:  http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/

That's where the TML FAQ is located, as well as lots of useful stuff such 
as errata listings, product listings, reviews, etc.  It's a web-site that 
should be in all Traveller enthusiast's bookmark listings.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 10:24:25 -0700
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin Derek Stanley,
> 
>>I'll buy that deck plan in Gif format for a dollar.  Give me tonight 
>>and I'll check your spelling and grammer. and ship it back your way.
> 
>         I've uploaded it to http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
>         in traveller/mosquito both GIF and XFig source are available.

Okay, Going to check that out and get the map...
 
>         BTW as it has tradition in traveller to spread german words
>         in source and rulebooks, you can leave "M|cke" anchanged.
>         And just a question : is ARW "Algemeine Raumschiffwerft"
>         the original name of the company making the first Kinunir
>         or just a translation ?

Good question.  I've only just got back into Traveller after a really 
long hiatus.  And I mean really long.  I like the sound of the Company 
name.  Mind you German names for things always have a cool ring.

BTW.  Is the Emperor's granddaughter in cold sleep or is she actually 
alive and awake.  She'd be in her 70's by the time the new era came 
about.  How did Strephon get a granddaughter anyway.  I know people will 
ask.

Derek Stanley
Chillin' on the Left Coast of Canada

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:57:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> Good question.  I've only just got back into Traveller after a really 
> long hiatus.  And I mean really long.  I like the sound of the Company 
> name.  Mind you German names for things always have a cool ring.
> 
> BTW.  Is the Emperor's granddaughter in cold sleep or is she actually 
> alive and awake.  She'd be in her 70's by the time the new era came 

Not sure, I think she would be in cold sleep but I dont have any canonical
material to back that.

> about.  How did Strephon get a granddaughter anyway.  I know people will 
> ask.


Probably the usual way ;) Of course she and her parents could have been
invitro I s'pose, but where would the fun have been in that? 

> 
> Derek Stanley
> Chillin' on the Left Coast of Canada
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 11:32:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

>> Hear, Hear!  No more lives allowed forn list-members...or we'll send the men
>> in black after you...we know where you live....:) :)
>
>Whoo-hoo!  Another TMLer without a life!  :)

Without a life...the Internet is my life, I mean, doesn't that count :) :)

>> Feel lucky your local game store plans on carrying it.  I went o my local

>> one, and asked about Traveller, only to be told that the company that
>> produces Traveller has gone out of business.  So, I told him all about
>> Imperium, and how Traveller debuted at Gen Con.  Well, then I received the
>> reply that 'I went to Gen Con and didn't see anything about it...if it comes
>> out we'll get it...'.  
>
>[sigh]  If he really went to Gen Con, he probably hung out at the TSR and 
>Games Workshop areas.  :P  It's not like IG had a huge booth or anything, 
>but they certainly were there and they did have their table filled with 
>T4 books (and a mint copy of The Traveller Book (hardbound)).  

Well ya, most likely, I mean, the guy I admit is not that bright.  However,
it's pretty annoying.  If I had gone to GenCon (I'm hoping I will next year)
I wouldn't stand around only the games I play, I'd try new things, and new
games.

>Sounds like this person has his head buried in the sand (or somewhere 
>else). 

:)

>I wish these idiotic games store owners and clerks would get with it and 
>realize that they depend on /customers/, which means offering those 
>customers what they want, not what the owner wants to sell them.  It's 
>great to hear the good stories about games stores from the TML members, 
>otherwise I'd dispair for our hobby.

Right.  Actually, this game store would not really get my business if the
only other one wasn't a comic store (it sells only Star Wars, AD&D and White
Wolf) and the only real game stores are 30 minutes away at least...and, this
problem is compunded cause I can't drive :(

Thanks,

Peter
       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 13:40:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

On 08/25/96 at 09:55 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

>> So, what are the stats for cold fusion plants, and why aren't they being 
>> used in starships.

>This is just a guess, but the smaller cold fusion plants will probably be 
>in with the vehicle/small craft design rules.  Given the space 
>constraints on QSDS, they probably had to make a decision as to how small 
>of fusion plants to include, and decided that those smaller ones had to 
>be left out.

I think these are the MrFusion units that Greg Porter has talked about on
the gdw-beta list.  It was my understanding that the units used in the
vehicles/small craft are going to have "problems" that won't let them be
used (commonly) to power starship systems.  Foex, I *think* they are going
to be listed as having much lower power/cc than normal Fusion+ units.  In
other words, they will scale down extremely well, but scaling up won't work
nearly as well.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Space Yuppies (Was: Comments about T4)

Thus spake Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>:

> You mean they still have yuppies thousands of years from now?!?!  I 
> thought for sure the sub-species would have died out by then. :)

It's kinda like that drug-resistant tuberculosis:  If you slack off on 
the extermination effort, they start having the spare time to negotiate 
"love moments" and then, once again, the population gets out of control.

As a new species of Traveller alien, these characters could be downright 
formidable...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

Some guy said:

> > I'd argue that since operating a PGMP-12 requires the strength
> > augmentation found in (T4's augmented) battle dress armor, it is
> > effectively part of the armor.
> 
> I don't think it's the *strength* the you need. Way back in the 3
> little books days, the image that sprang into my mind was that trying
> to use a PGMP/FGMP *without* battledress was a good way to kill
> yourself. While it';s mostly dangerous "downrange", being *near* one of
> those when it is fired ought to be good for some damage if you aren't
> armored. 

I think that in once of the first three book, or perhaps Mercenary (book 
4?  I forget -- it's still in storage) it mentions that the uncompensated 
plasma/fusion weapons cannot be fired by 'unpowered' troops.  In fact, 
the 'stock' for those weapons is merely a big shock-absorber with a 
universal data jack at the end which plugs into the firer's battle dress 
at the shoulder.  Ever wonder what those wierd rectangular depressions 
near the shoulders that showed up in the illustrations of MT battle dress 
were?

Another point:  In CT/MT, if you bricked your firing roll really bad (or 
was it a roll against your Battle Dress skill?) will using an 
uncompensated plasma/fusion weapon, you could severely injure yourself by 
bending your shoulder in a way not originally intended.
 
> In support of this viewpoint, I note that I'v'e never seen an example
> of something like a "pintle mount" for a FGMP! It's too dangerous. Sort
> of like a recoiless rifle, the backblast is kinda unhealthy. Only in
> this case, it's more along the lines of the "muzzle blast". :-)

While there is some thermal effect on the firer attributed to these 
weapons, it is typically sufficient for the firer to be wearing 
flame-retardant clothing if using a compensated weapon.  I'd point out 
the page number in the TNE rulebook (or was it FF&S), but my whole life 
is in storage (I'm moving this month).  Now, if you should happen to hit 
a target at point-blank range while just wearing your camo coveralls, I 
should suspect that you'll end up wearing some of the plasma splatter...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

Thus spake "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>:

> So, does anyone know what's the deal with the cold fusion?  At TL 12, the
> smallest possible starship fusion plant is 0.4 Displacement Tons, ie 5.6
> cubic meters. 
> 
> OK, fine, but we also have descriptions of "cold fusion" plants which 
> power the grav vehicles and ground cars.  Given that the 4 ton (metric 
> ton, not disp. tons) grav vehicle and the 1.5 ton ground car can both use 
> cold fusion plants I doubt that they take up 5.6 cubic meters.
> 
> So, what are the stats for cold fusion plants, and why aren't they being 
> used in starships.

Are you talking about T4, or Fire Fusion and Steel (TNE)?  If you're 
talking about something in the T4 rulebook, I can't help you -- I'm 
pinching the pennies so tight this month that I can't even afford to buy 
the softcover book 'til next month.

If, however, you're talking about FF&S, then I feel compelled to remind 
you that it's one of them 'alternate' technologies that they included in 
the book but which isn't part of the 'official' Traveller universe.  If 
you decide to use them, then it'll delight you to know that there is no 
minimum size for cold fusion power plants.  At TL-12, they put out 0.8 MW 
per cubic meter, so you just make them as big as (or as small as) you 
need.  They mass one ton per cubic meter, and each cubic meter costs 
Cr5000.  Cold fusion power plants consume two liters of ordinary water 
per hour per megawatt of output.  Hope this helps...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:09:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The Yuppie Character

Enlistment 9+
	DM +2 if Soc 8+
	DM +1 if Edu 9+
	Social under 6 or above 10 not allowed.

Draft N/A

Survival 4+
	DM +1 if Int 10+

Commission: N/A

Promotion: N/A (Rank is instead determined by the type and cost of vehicle
one drives.)

Reenlist 5+

Retirement after 5 terms with pension allowed, pension is twice the
equivalent miltary pension.

				Mustering Out

Benfits
1	Low Passage
2	+1 Int
3	+1 Edu
4	High Passage
5	Sporty Ground Vehicle
6	Sporty Grav Speeder

Cash
1	5000
2	5000
3	10000
4	20000
5	40000
6	80000
7	100000
	
	DM +1 if Gambling skill posessed.

				Skills

4 initial term, 2 per subsequent term

Personal Developement
1	+1 Str
2	+1 Dex
3	+1 End
4	+1 Edu
5	Brawling
6	Gambling

Service Skills
1	Admin
2	Computer
3	Trading
4	Liason
5	Carousing
6	Vehicle (ground or grav)

Advanced Education
1	Computer
2	Legal
3	Medical
4	Recruiting
5	Streetwise
6	Admin

Advanced Education (Education 8+ only)
1	Forgery
2	Bribery
3	Legal
4	Medical
5	Jack-o-Trade
6	Ship's Boat



_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:11:38 -0600
Subject: Re: More T4 comments

At 01:06 pm 8/24/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>><<deletia>>
>> 
>> I have a related idea on antigrav for your perusal:  AG works to
>> provide propulsion now, right (air rafts, speeders, grav tanks,
>> etc.)?  With some hand waving we could allow the lateral propulsion
>> value (perpendicular to the gravity gradient) drop of rapidly with
>> distance from the surface.  The idea is that you'd need nearby mass
>> in quantity around (in front of, behind, etc.) the craft to use it
>> for lateral movement.  This would mean that grav vehicles could
>> still get to orbit, but the lateral maneuver would be maximized as
>> altitude is reduced.  Grav tanks would be maneuverable at NOE, but
>> slow pigs at high altitude.  Seems like a neat way to make sense of
>> the way grav vehicles are vs. space craft, etc..
>
>On the surface, I agree with your bit of hand waving, Merrick. It makes
scientific 
>sense, given that gravitational forces between two bodies is inversely
proportional to 
>their distance from one another.
>
>However, there is a problem: _spaceships_ also use a gravitic-based
technology now for 
>normal-space propulsion, and this idea has problems if it is extended to
spaceships. 

        Thruster plates are a different gravitic-based technology, working
more or less undiminished out to a certain threshold (for Sol system, around
3000AU IIRC -- chosen to deny the Kuiper belt as a refueling stop). Standard
contragravity diminishes much more quickly as the local G-field goes down,
so they aren't really useful for anything more than getting to low orbit.
100 diameters would take forever.

        This is what Greg Porter, Don Perrin, myself, & the rest of the SSDS
design folks hashed out back in May/June.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:11:48 -0600
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

At 01:37 pm 8/25/96 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Moin Derek Stanley,
>
>> I'll buy that deck plan in Gif format for a dollar.  Give me tonight and 
>> I'll check your spelling and grammer. and ship it back your way.
>
>	I've uploaded it to http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
>	in traveller/mosquito both GIF and XFig source are available.
>
>	BTW as it has tradition in traveller to spread german words
>	in source and rulebooks, you can leave "M|cke" anchanged.

        Given the varying character sets on computers, we have to change it
to "Mueke" as the umlauts don't come through. To me it looks like "M|cke."

>	And just a question : is ARW "Algemeine Raumschiffwerft"
>	the original name of the company making the first Kinunir
>	or just a translation ?

        Translation of "General Shipyards."

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:11:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

At 12:56 am 8/25/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>So, does anyone know what's the deal with the cold fusion?  At TL 12, the
>smallest possible starship fusion plant is 0.4 Displacement Tons, ie 5.6
>cubic meters. 
>
>OK, fine, but we also have descriptions of "cold fusion" plants which 
>power the grav vehicles and ground cars.  Given that the 4 ton (metric 
>ton, not disp. tons) grav vehicle and the 1.5 ton ground car can both use 
>cold fusion plants I doubt that they take up 5.6 cubic meters.
>
>So, what are the stats for cold fusion plants, and why aren't they being 
>used in starships.

        Check out the fuel usage for the cold fusion and see how long you
can run a starship with a reasonable amount of fuel. That was supposed to be
the distinguishing characteristic and the reason why starships don't use
cold fusion.

        This dichotomy was forced on us by the "fusion+" thing that forced
us to multiply minimum powerplant size by 10 below TL 12. Greg Porter still
wanted 15G family speeders available, hence cold fusion.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:11:31 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 availability

At 11:02 pm 8/21/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On 21 Aug 96 at 11:53, Eris Reddoch spewed:
>
>> Stuart, I'm glad *somebody* got the book.  Where are you located? Maybe we
>> can track the distribution pattern. <g>
>
>Phoenix, AZ.  I inquired initially at 1 store, but bought it at one 
>closer to home...  Both said that they shipped from the distributor 
>last Friday, and they apparently arrived on Tuesday...

        If you're still tracking, I went to two stores in CSprings today.
Heroes & Dragons informed me that there was no more Traveller, that GDW went
under. After I corrected them, they explained their distributor hadn't told
them anything. When their distributor tells them about it, they'll think
about carrying it.

        The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
and sold them already.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:11:44 -0600
Subject: Re: MT Traveller errata sheet

At 05:18 pm 8/25/96 +1300, you wrote:
>
>Hi there,
>
>Dose anyone out there know if there is an errata sheet for MT? I've
>recently got the system and am having particular trouble in ship
>construction (ie. determination of control points). Is there a spreadsheet
>that can do this?
>
>Any help greatfully accecpted.

        Check out my traveller site for the MT errata.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:35:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> Another point:  In CT/MT, if you bricked your firing roll really bad (or 
> was it a roll against your Battle Dress skill?) will using an 
> uncompensated plasma/fusion weapon, you could severely injure yourself by 
> bending your shoulder in a way not originally intended.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oooh, that would be a bad thing.  The original manufacturer's 
specifications must not be exceeded, or the warranty will be invalid!  As 
for a pleasant afterlife, you can just forget it if you void the warranty!
:)


> While there is some thermal effect on the firer attributed to these 
> weapons, it is typically sufficient for the firer to be wearing 
> flame-retardant clothing if using a compensated weapon.  I'd point out 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So, for example, your average UseNETter would be safe, then?


- -Joe, whose sense of humor leaves much to be desired.
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:51:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         If you're still tracking, I went to two stores in CSprings today.
> Heroes & Dragons informed me that there was no more Traveller, that GDW went
> under. After I corrected them, they explained their distributor hadn't told
> them anything. When their distributor tells them about it, they'll think
> about carrying it.

[stunned look]  "When their distributor...."  Huh?  Geez.  They may has 
well have said, "Well, we're pretty sure you're lying through your 
teeth, but if our distributor proves you aren't, we might decide to order 
some."  

That's a go example of how NOT to win customers and become profitable.

I've gotta start a games store.  I'll make a mint!  All I have to do is 
treat my customers like intelligent human beings, and I'll be rolling in 
it!  Anyone know a good demographics researcher? :)


>         The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
> and sold them already.

Good news, good news, bad news, good news.  It's good that they knew 
about it and ordered them, and good that they've sold out.  But they 
ordered a dozen and recived four, eh?  I hope that's because their 
distributor underestimated demand...and not because IG underestimated 
demand. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #348
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 26 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 349

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)
         2. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         3. Re: Random Thoughts
         4. Re: Random Thoughts
         5. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         6. Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         7. [none]
         8. Re: T4 availability
         9. Re: Random Thoughts
        10. Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)
        11. Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)
        12. The Yuppie Character
        13. Re: T4 Availability
        14. Re: Cold Fusion
        15. Re: your mail
        16. Re: Random Thoughts
        17. Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 15:26:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)

Wes Payne wrote:
> 
> Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):
> 

> 
> I think that in once of the first three book, or perhaps Mercenary (book
> 4?  I forget -- it's still in storage) it mentions that the uncompensated
> plasma/fusion weapons cannot be fired by 'unpowered' troops.  In fact,
> the 'stock' for those weapons is merely a big shock-absorber with a
> universal data jack at the end which plugs into the firer's battle dress
> at the shoulder.  Ever wonder what those wierd rectangular depressions
> near the shoulders that showed up in the illustrations of MT battle dress
> were?

It was _Mercenary_ where the issue of an unpowered trooper firing a high-energy weapon 
was raised. The data jacks for HE weaponry are made explicit in TNE for FGMP-12 and 
other uncompensated high-energy weapons.

> 
> Another point:  In CT/MT, if you bricked your firing roll really bad (or
> was it a roll against your Battle Dress skill?) will using an
> uncompensated plasma/fusion weapon, you could severely injure yourself by
> bending your shoulder in a way not originally intended.

Yep. 
> 
> > In support of this viewpoint, I note that I'v'e never seen an example
> > of something like a "pintle mount" for a FGMP! It's too dangerous. Sort
> > of like a recoiless rifle, the backblast is kinda unhealthy. Only in
> > this case, it's more along the lines of the "muzzle blast". :-)

Yeah...the G-carrier -- a craft that is is usually armed with a HE weapon carries 
something more along the lines of a enclosed cupola/ small turret than a pintle-mount 
MG. Not only is the muzzle blast dangerous, there's also going to be a significant 
hazard from ionizing radiation due to excited hydrogen plasma (or _fusing_ plasma, in 
the case of a FGMP). 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:13:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

Joe Walsh wrote to Rich Ostorero:
> 
> While I'm not known for my military campaigns, I do like to have a good
> range of weapons available.  You just never know when you'll need a TL 7
> Light Howitzer. :) 

My group likes to bring "Crunch Guns" on barhopping runs <sigh>.

> I guess I'm just spoiled because I'm used to having
> the huge variety available if one owns a great deal of CT products.

Can't disagree about being spoiled, Joe.

> 
> Looking at T4 objectively, it is a complete RPG system.  One could
> certanly get by with what is there.

A good ref should be able to get by without specific rules for "God weapons" by 
extending the basic rules to situations not covered yet. Example: RAM greandes. If you 
have Book 4 or MT, use the range stats therein, else use TNE . . . then consider the 
weapon's basic concept. An antiarmor RAM grenade, it should be able to penetrate the 
armor of a light AFV and totally Ruin The Day(tm) of anyone in TL-10 to 12 battle dress; 
a frag RAM grenade would be virtually the twin of the hand grenade already defined, 
except it is fired from a launcher with a different skill . . . .  

There's always the "avoid God weapon" option, too . . . .:)

Still, Joe, I'm not going to _like_ all the improvising I'm going to need to do while 
running.

> It is no less complete than, say
> first edition Shadowrun.  But if I don't keep that perspective, and
> realize what it /should/ be compared to, I end up comparing it to the
> whole CT system, and I feel like there are many huge chunks missing.

That feeling -- the one you identify so well --  among us fans is why IG is going to 
release the major supplements on a monthly schedule into '97.

> 
> I expect the CSC to have everything in it.  The blurb about it does say
> that it will collect all of the already-published Traveller equipment
> into one place, and add new stuff as well.
> 
> But if that's not the case, I'll be mighty disappointed.

I have _very_ high hopes for CSC. My hopes are so high that I'll not be disappointed too 
much if the book is released late _as long as IG publishes *all* the gear_. If they fail 
to be complete and rush the book into release, I'll be unhappy. I'm expecting a preview 
in JTAS 26.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 16:25:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

Joe Walsh wrote:

> 
> Whoo-hoo!  Another TMLer without a life!  :)

This thread reminds me of a post I saw on a BBS awhile ago:

"I don't have a life. I have a modem"

 
<<deletia>>
 

> The comics shops, however, won't carry it and didn't offer to
> order it.  I think that's pretty bad news for IG.

The problem IG seems to be facing is that comics stores (with a few heroic exceptions, 
like the one in my town) have been burned so hard on games (esp CCGs), and that the 
comics biz has been so terrible these last few years that store owners are being 
especially cautious about any new game.

<<deletia>>

>
> I wish these idiotic games store owners and clerks would get with it and
> realize that they depend on /customers/, which means offering those
> customers what they want, not what the owner wants to sell them.  It's
> great to hear the good stories about games stores from the TML members,
> otherwise I'd dispair for our hobby.

Not to mention the _distributors_ who are taking a chance on IG and T4. Yep, let's hear 
it for the unsung heroes of the hobby -- the good stores and distributors who bring the 
goodies from the publisher to us!> 


Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:44:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

[Snipperoo]
> The problem IG seems to be facing is that comics stores (with a few heroic exceptions, 
> like the one in my town) have been burned so hard on games (esp CCGs), and that the 
> comics biz has been so terrible these last few years that store owners are being 
> especially cautious about any new game.

Very true.  One of my friends is a comics fan who is pretty knowledgeable 
about the industry.  He's told me that some pretty weird stuff has been 
happening to the distribution channels (Marvel now distributes its own 
stuff, apparently, and won't let others distribute it) which, when 
coupled with the well-known CCG fiasco, does (as you said) explain comic 
store owner's being reticent about carrying anything that isn't known to 
be a big seller.

That's frustrating, but understandable.


> Not to mention the _distributors_ who are taking a chance on IG and T4. Yep, let's hear 
> it for the unsung heroes of the hobby -- the good stores and distributors who bring the 
> goodies from the publisher to us!> 

I'm trying to convince one local store to carry it.  I asked the owner to 
special-order a copy of T4 for me.  When I pick it up next week, I'm 
going to try to whip up some interest in the game among whoever will 
listen to me.  :)   "Yes!  I've been waiting for this game!  Look at 
these beautiful full-color pictures!  Did you hear game stores across the 
nation are selling out of this thing?"  Well, maybe not that extreme, but 
. . . :)

Heck, it's in my best interest to get stores around here to carry it.  I 
have to have /somewhere/ to buy the loads and loads of T4 merchandise 
that is soon to be pouring out of the numerous companies who are (or soon 
will be) liscensed to make official Traveller items. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:50:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> My group likes to bring "Crunch Guns" on barhopping runs <sigh>.

That sounds mighty familiar, Rich. :)


> That feeling -- the one you identify so well --  among us fans is why IG is going to 
> release the major supplements on a monthly schedule into '97.

Too true.  I hope IG sticks to the schedule outlined in Marc Miller's 
seminar at Gen-Con:  one product each month FOREVER. :)


> I have _very_ high hopes for CSC. My hopes are so high that I'll not be disappointed too 
> much if the book is released late _as long as IG publishes *all* the gear_. If they fail 
> to be complete and rush the book into release, I'll be unhappy. I'm expecting a preview 
> in JTAS 26.

[sigh]  Thanks for reminding me of the other things I'm dying to get, 
Rich. :)  JTAS, the Citizens of the Imperium club materials, . . .

The good thing is that IG has two products planned for December.  That 
means two lucky relatives will have the opportunity to buy Traveller 
stuff for me as Christmas presents. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:59:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

Help! :)

I've recently acquired several dozen TNE-era Traveller starship 
miniatures by RAFM.  While I've painted a few hundred fantasy miniatures 
in my time (long ago), I'm new to starships.  I need some assistance from 
those who are more experienced with this sort of thing.

Since it has been so long, I had to purchase all new paints (went with 
Armory brand - bought 24 w/ a case at Gen-Con, then bought 20 more via 
mail order), brushes, primer, matte finishing spray, etc.  But I'm still 
rather unsure how to proceed.

My main problem is in color choice.  Now, obviously I could just go with 
whatever I like.  I'm torn between "Iron" (a nice, dark, metallic color) 
and "Insignia White."  I've done a figure with each, and both look 
equally nice.

Any advice for what looks best as the base coat?

The biggest problem I'm having is in painting the details.  /Should/ they 
be painted?  Or are the ships simply monochromatic?  If they should be 
painted a different color than the rest of the ship, should I stick with 
black, or is it the normal procedure to go with other colors?   Primary 
colors?  Subdued or bright?  Sheesh!

Fantasy was easy.  Keeping the ships from looking boring while not 
looking garish is proving difficult, though. :(

Any advice or assistance would be greatly appreciated.


- -Joe

P.S.  I only have CT and T4.  CT has B&W pictures which are no help at 
all.  T4 has B&W drawings of the ships included, and Foss color art of 
ships I've never seen before...not much help there, either.
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 00:54:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

James Dempsey
> Can't answer your second question about reprints, but I can guess.
> I doubt that IG would announce it now even if it is planned,

My suspicion is that the economical $25 pricetag was achieved by a
huge initial print run. I wouldn't count on a new printing for a
while, unless everyone follows the practice of buying 4 or more
copies.

LKW

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 21:37:36 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 08/25/96 at 04:11 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        If you're still tracking, 

Not officially or anything, but I'm keeping an eye out.

>I went to two stores in CSprings today.  Heroes & Dragons informed
>me that there was no more Traveller, that GDW went under.  After I
>corrected them, they explained their distributor hadn't told them
>anything.  When their distributor tells them about it, they'll think
>about carrying it.

> The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
>and sold them already.

It seems to be doing much better in the west than anywhere
else..distribution wise, but that could be a mis-preception based on who'd
reported that they'll gotten it.  Paul reported T4 in southern Mississippi
yesterday, but I haven't seen it and I'm about 100 miles east of him.  I've
got 2 stores that say they've got it on order, but they are still talking
"end of month."  That's getting pretty close now. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:04:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

Joseph E. Walsh wrote
[snip]
>> Feel lucky your local game store plans on carrying it.  I went o my local...

[snip]

>I wish these idiotic games store owners and clerks would get with it and
>realize that they depend on /customers/, which means offering those
>customers what they want, not what the owner wants to sell them.  It's
>great to hear the good stories about games stores from the TML members,
>otherwise I'd dispair for our hobby.
>

Joe,

That's where we have the problem. The problem is that *most* of their
customers want T$R, White Wolf, and card games (e.g. Magic), not new games
or games that require extensive thinking. Why even try something new, when
you can get supplement after supplement of predigested pap. (BTW, to quell
protests, I own quite a bit of AD&D and WW stuff, I just steal the concepts
and the rules for "better purposes".) We have several games stores here in
Minneapolis and St. Paul, some better than others. The last time I made the
rounds, the majority of the players were well under 20 and either going
over the latest from T$R and the newest magic set. Checking out the
tabletop gamers, most where arrayed with the latest from GW, painted just
like the figures do in White Dwarf ("Sounds of lamentations for the old
days of White Dwarf, you know, when it was a gaming mag, not a slick ad").

It actually is reminiscant of the computer industry in the early-mid
eighties. There were a bunch of operating system, a number of producers of
hardware and software. Now, there seems to be Microsoft and Apple for the
mainstream, UNIX for the "elites". Hopefully, more gamers will migrate to
games are more diverse or that require more imagination (e.g. Traveller,
Torg, Call of Cthulhu). I've played great AD&D games, but they have been
those where only the framework has been taken and the latest/greatest arms
race has been ignored and something has been built from the tools.

Well, this has been rather disjointed, sorry for being fuzzy, but I've not
managed to put it it to words properly. Maybe what we need to do is find a
good way to expose good players to new games, help the munchkins grow up,
and renew interest in the good games, not the predigested pap.



Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris

Homebrew - If it's a hobby, it's not a problem!

And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
                        M. Arnold "Dover Beach"




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 22:18:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

On 08/25/96 at 05:51 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>[stunned look]  "When their distributor...."  Huh?  Geez.  They may has 
>well have said, "Well, we're pretty sure you're lying through your  teeth,
>but if our distributor proves you aren't, we might decide to order  some." 

Oh Joe, it's not like most retailers *ever* believe their customers.

>That's a go example of how NOT to win customers and become profitable.

Unfortunately, most retail employees don't really care about
profitablity, they just want their paycheck.  As far as customers go,
they're just more work.  Haven't you ever been studiously ignored by
clerks?  Now, *owners* are a different story. <g>

>I've gotta start a games store.  I'll make a mint!  All I have to do is 
>treat my customers like intelligent human beings, and I'll be rolling in 
>it!  Anyone know a good demographics researcher? :)

Don't expect me to drive all the way up there from the gulf coast to buy
suppliments! <g>  

>>         The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
>> and sold them already.

>Good news, good news, bad news, good news.  It's good that they knew 
>about it and ordered them, and good that they've sold out.  But they 
>ordered a dozen and recived four, eh?  I hope that's because their 
>distributor underestimated demand...and not because IG underestimated 
>demand. 

Actually, I hope IG underestimated demand too!  I hope they sell their
production run out and have to order another run right away. I also hope
they have plenty of ready capital to cover a very fast runup of production
costs.  They've got ?6? more products to get into the channel by the end of
the year! <G>

Distribution seems pretty spotty with lots of stores still not getting
their copeis, and it appears lots of stores are getting fewer copies than
they ordered too.  I suspect IG has enough product to fill the channels, so
it's probably the distributers holding back on orders.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi-Temp Nitpicking (Was: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons)

>From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>

>I think that in once of the first three book, or perhaps Mercenary (book 
>4?  I forget -- it's still in storage) it mentions that the uncompensated 
>plasma/fusion weapons cannot be fired by 'unpowered' troops.  In fact, 
>the 'stock' for those weapons is merely a big shock-absorber with a 
>universal data jack at the end which plugs into the firer's battle dress 
>at the shoulder.  Ever wonder what those wierd rectangular depressions 
>near the shoulders that showed up in the illustrations of MT battle dress 
>were?

Book 4, Mercenary, at 37-38, describes High Energy Weapons.  Regarding
recoil for the PGMG-12 (which we always call the PGIP here in Berkeley
(Plasma Gun, Individual-Portable), so as not to be specist nor sexist), it
says, "Because of the considerable recoil, the PGMP-12 may only be fired
every other combat round."  The PGMP-13, however, "may only be fired by an
individual wearing battle dress and only when the firer is stationery and
firmly braced in one of several standard firing positions.  This allows the
suit's normal strength enhancements to function as a recoil carriage.
Instead of a conventional stock, the PGMP-13 has a recoil cylinder
terminating in a computer link to the battle dress.  The computer link
engages when placed in the PGMP socket integral []to the battle dress...."

The PGMP-14 "incorporates a gravitic field generator which enables personnel
not in powered armor both to carry the weapon and to fire it, since the
weapon's computer system automatically biases the field to provide near
total recoil compensation."   

The FGMP-14 does not have a gravitic field generator, and can only be fired
by personnel in battle dress, much like the PGMP-13; the FGMP-15 is similar
to the PGMP-14.  

So there's no mention of thermal backblast, just recoil.

>Now, if you should happen to hit 
>a target at point-blank range while just wearing your camo coveralls, I 
>should suspect that you'll end up wearing some of the plasma splatter...

High energy weapons may not be fired at targets at Close or Short range
(Book 4, at 50), for exactly that reason (likewise HE weapons).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:00:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Yuppie Character

>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>

ROTFL, but I would change a few things (I've had to make up a few things):

>Enlistment Draft Survival Commission Promotion Reenlist Retirement 

These are all right on.

Benefits
>1	Low Passage
>2	+1 Int
>3	+1 Edu
>4	High Passage
>5	Sporty Ground Vehicle
>6	Sporty Grav Speeder

Remove Low Passage; add +1 Soc (what's the point of being a yuppie if you
can't social-climb?).

>
>Cash

I'd make a bigger spread, to reflect the true importance of luck in a yuppie
career:

1 Cr0
2 Cr5000
3 Cr20000
4 Cr60000
5 Cr100000
6 Cr500000

>	DM +1 if Gambling skill posessed.

Definitely.

Skills
>4 initial term, 2 per subsequent term
>
>Personal Developement
>1	+1 Str
>2	+1 Dex
>3	+1 End
>4	+1 Edu
>5	Brawling
>6	Gambling

+1 Str and +1 End should stay -- what's the purpose of that personal fitness
trainer, anyway?  +1 End also comes from dealing with all the bureaucratic
and psychological difficulties of corporate life.  Edu continues with
seminars, etc.  Gambling is part of the life-style (both risk-taking and
Forday night Fizzbin with the other corpyups).  I'd substitute melee combat
for brawling (that personal trainer, again).

>Service Skills
>1	Admin
>2	Computer
>3	Trading
>4	Liason
>5	Carousing
>6	Vehicle (ground or grav)

ok

>Advanced Education
I would change as follows:
1 Accounting
>2	Legal
3 Broker
>4	Recruiting
>5	Streetwise
6 Sales & Marketing

>Advanced Education (Education 8+ only)

These should be available only to Soc 9+ (whom you know is far more
important than what you know).  I suggest the following:

>1	Forgery
>2	Bribery
3  Interrogation
4  Vehicle (choose from:  watercraft/sail; watercraft/motor; light aircraft
pilot; ship's boat)
5  Sports (choose from:  golf or its local equivalent; skiing or its local
equivalent; equestrian/animal rider)
6  +1 Soc

- --Glenn



------------------------------

From: jbucsek@delsplace.com
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:20:48 -0500 
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

Really good gaming stores seem to be at a premium anywhere (I miss 1701
Enterprise in Orlando) but Bridgeton Hobbies here in Portland knew about
T4 and expected it in by now but I haven't checked as my checkbook is
telling me not until next month :(
Del's Place BBS 204.245.241.76 delsplace.com (503)655-1335 Portland, Oregon, USA
http://www.delsplace.com 

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

David J. Golden wrote:

>        Check out the fuel usage for the cold fusion and see how long you
>can run a starship with a reasonable amount of fuel. That was supposed 
to be
>the distinguishing characteristic and the reason why starships don't use
>cold fusion.
>        This dichotomy was forced on us by the "fusion+" thing that forced
>us to multiply minimum powerplant size by 10 below TL 12. Greg Porter still
>wanted 15G family speeders available, hence cold fusion.

So, does this mean that they are using the FF&S Cold Fusion for small
craft?  

- -Thanks

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 06:40:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: your mail

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> My suspicion is that the economical $25 pricetag was achieved by a
> huge initial print run. I wouldn't count on a new printing for a
> while, unless everyone follows the practice of buying 4 or more
> copies.

Well, there you go!  I'm doing /my/ part to bring about a second, 
error-free print run.  How about you? :)


- -Joe
I knew there was /some/ logical reason for buying four copies...
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 06:57:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Derek Dees wrote:

[cut]
> That's where we have the problem. The problem is that *most* of their
> customers want T$R, White Wolf, and card games (e.g. Magic), not new games
> or games that require extensive thinking. Why even try something new, when
> you can get supplement after supplement of predigested pap. 

Heh.  On the one hand, they are /games/, so I can sorta understand the 
attitude.  If you've never experienced the additional fun you can have 
when you use more of your intelligence, why would you want to go to the 
trouble? :)

On the other hand, it's just yet another example of how darned 
intellectually lazy people can be.


[snip]
> and the rules for "better purposes".) We have several games stores here in
> Minneapolis and St. Paul, some better than others. The last time I made the
> rounds, the majority of the players were well under 20 and either going
> over the latest from T$R and the newest magic set. Checking out the

It's the same all over, eh?


> tabletop gamers, most where arrayed with the latest from GW, painted just
> like the figures do in White Dwarf ("Sounds of lamentations for the old
> days of White Dwarf, you know, when it was a gaming mag, not a slick ad").

Yes!  I started buying White Dwarf just at the tail end of the magazine 
era, and quickly stopped buying it when it became a huge advertisement 
for Warhammer.


> It actually is reminiscant of the computer industry in the early-mid
> eighties. There were a bunch of operating system, a number of producers of
> hardware and software. Now, there seems to be Microsoft and Apple for the
> mainstream, UNIX for the "elites". Hopefully, more gamers will migrate to
> games are more diverse or that require more imagination (e.g. Traveller,
> Torg, Call of Cthulhu). 

That's a good analogy.  I certainly hope the gaming industry doesn't end 
up like the computer industry!  We'd have T$R as Microsoft, White Wolf as 
Apple, and Magic as the Fisher Price/Mattel "let's pretend" laptop 
computers. 


> Well, this has been rather disjointed, sorry for being fuzzy, but I've not
> managed to put it it to words properly. Maybe what we need to do is find a
> good way to expose good players to new games, help the munchkins grow up,
> and renew interest in the good games, not the predigested pap.

Hmmm.  I guess we could run through T4 at gaming stores that offer space 
for such.  Demonstrate it, I guess.

Any other ideas?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:07:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Oh Joe, it's not like most retailers *ever* believe their customers.

I know, it's sad isn't it?  I guess my experience with Games Unlimited in 
Walnut Creek, CA has given me a warped image of the gaming retail 
industry.  They were /so/ good.

An example:  My best friend and I spent our paper route money ($80 or so) 
in that store every month.  The owner knew us because of that.  One month 
we came in there and bought our usual load of games, then started looking 
at the dice.  The previous month, we'd gotten Champions, so we needed a 
whole lotta D6's.  (At the time, we each had only the dice that came with 
the games we'd bought, so "a whole lot" of D6's was less than a 
dozen.[G])  The dice were on a shelf on the wall behind the counter, so 
we told the owner which we wanted.  He pulled them out of the jar, and 
let us know they were free!

Well, that was pretty impressive to us, let me tell you! :)  They were 
friendly and helpful to 13-year-olds for one thing, but being given 
something free was icing on the cake.  That definitely solidified our 
relationship with that store.

I never bought a single gaming item from any other store, until I moved 
out of state.

I'm not saying all store owners should give away merchandise.  I just 
wish they'd follow the spirit of that example, and make the effort to 
build a relationship with customers.


> Unfortunately, most retail employees don't really care about
> profitablity, they just want their paycheck.  As far as customers go,
> they're just more work.  Haven't you ever been studiously ignored by
> clerks?  Now, *owners* are a different story. <g>

What you say is true, but when we're talking about a gaming store with 
what, maybe 3 employees, it isn't unreasonable to expect the owner to 
make sure all of his employees treat customers right.  That is part of 
the responsibility of being the owner of a business.  Fail in that, and 
you're giving profits away.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 26 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 350

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 availability
         2. Re: T4 availability
         3. Re: Pbem Game
         4. Affordable Grav Vehicles
         5. Re: Laser/Military Weapons
         6. Re: Re: New Traveller Site (with trade rules)
         7. PGMP-12 recoil
         8. Re: More T4 comments
         9. RE: Pbem Game
        10. Re: More T4 comments
        11. Re: Pbem Game
        12. Re: T4 Availability
        13. Re: Laser/Military Weapons
        14. Re: Random Thoughts
        15. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        16. Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking
        17. Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)
        18. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        19. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        20. Re: Laser/Military Weapons
        21. Re: Random Thoughts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:14:16 MST7
Subject: T4 availability

Being a invertebrate impulse shopper, I just couldn't wait for my 
hardbound to get here, so I popped into my local gaming store on 
Saturday (Things for Thinkers for you locals).  They have a white board up with new arrivals on it, under 
New Toys, at the top of the list was Marc Miller's Traveller 4th Ed.

Unfortunately they were also sold out, supposed to get more on 
Wednesday.  I didn't think to ask how many they had sold out of...

I sure hope this is unprecedented demand...;-)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 26 Aug 96 13:14:49 EDT
Subject: Re: T4 availability

theres another problem I've found: I tried to order T4 from a store that only
deals with Greenfield Distributors (when I used to do ordering for a bookstore,
they were good enough for most of our stuff, too). People who are used to just
getting thimngs from one source may be getting stuck in a blind spot at no
fault of their own. 

Am trying Plan B....

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 19:17 +0100
Subject: Re: Pbem Game

Players Wanted:

I am looking for 6-8 players interested in PBEM Traveller game.  The campaign 
takes place in the year 4519 A.D. by the Terran calendar.  It will tie into 
Milieu 0 later.  The party lives in the Confederation of Altec, Altec Subsector, 
Fornast Sector.  The party is in an ideal position.  The Conferation is starting 
to expand as the period of the Long Night draws to an end.  I am using Gal2.1 to 
run the campaign.  Part of the turn information will be Gal2.1 txt files for the 
players.  The campaign is starting to shape up really well.  The campaign is 
setup to lean towards the economic side of Traveller.  If you are interested 
send me an email at JD.Burdick@t-online.de   Be sure to include what type of 
character you like to play.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Aug 1996 18:19:54 GMT
Subject: Affordable Grav Vehicles

Several years ago George macLure and I decided that grav vehicles cost too
much to be as common in the Traeller setting as they seemed.  As well, there
was a definate lack of civilian vehicles.  So we designed a whole pile of
cheap civilian vehicles for MegaTraveller, frequently letting a design evolve
through several tech levels.

I have placed many of these vehicles on my Traveller site ("Traveller at Don
Mills" if you go through Imperium Games site).  You'll find the vehicle
library (with 25 designs so far) under "Resource Materials".  I will be
adding more as I get them converted to HTML.  I will be converting these to
FF&S designs eventually, and will place those designs online as well.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Aug 1996 18:34:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Laser/Military Weapons

Still waiting for my T4 hardcover.  

However, designing FF&S weapons is easy.  Could some kind soul post the rules
to convert TNE weapon designs to T4 weapons designs?  This should be just a
matter of revising the damage/penetration/recoil values.  (Unless T4 went
back to fixed ranges - ie. medium is 5m-50m - rather than keeping range as a
function of weapon.)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Aug 1996 18:30:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: New Traveller Site (with trade rules)

>	looks ok, but it would be nicer to have these tables finished.

Thanks.  When I get time to type them in...

Actually, it might be faster to rewrite my Metator code to output to HTML
format, then import the file.  Hmmm.....

------------------------------

From: ollerenb@cadvision.com (Bruce Ollerenshaw)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:40:06 -0700
Subject: PGMP-12 recoil

        Book 4, "Mercenary", states that Battle Dress is required for a
PGMP-13 but not for a PGMP-12.  The recoil of the PGMP-12 did limit its use
to once every other round.

                                        Bruce Ollerenshaw



------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 11:56 PDT
Subject: Re: More T4 comments

I bought my copy of T4 last saturday morning and after glancing through it
breifly was fairly unhappy with it.  My first impression was that the color
artwork was horribly unoriginal and where there was original art is was fine
EXCEPT for the ships and especially the weapons art.  I'd hoped they would
have been on a par with the technical drawings in 2300AD, or at least been
less cartoonish.  It was very obvious that the artist (who was perfectly
fine on most of the illustrations) had no experience with real weapons.  I
know I'm being nit picky here, but I did pay $22.50 for a book that I
suspect will start falling apart in no time flat.  (The shotgun appears to
be a left handed bolt action _with_ a pump action on top of the barrel, the
auto pistol appears to have a recoil spring guide rod above the barrel, the
laser pistol looks like a hollywood prop made in the 50's from an old
Craftsman drill, the revolver is so funky looking that you have to wonder if
it's supposed to be a lighter.  The body pistol looks like one of those
little collapseable hand held hair dryers...Of course, the foil is the most
unweildy looking sword I've seen drawn yet - is that supposed to be a basket
hilt?)

The skill lists under careers seems to be missing the italics, bolds, and
asterixes mentioned later in the skills chapter...

It took me a couple of tries before I realized how the skill assets worked,
which was an improvement over the CT, in my opinion.  I haven't had a chance
to read the whole book through and through, but I can already see how this
system is going to be extremely light on the mechanics and that it will be
fine for the GM's who are want to focus on story and pace over detail...

Just wanted to rant and rave a bit and be obnoxiously picky about the art.
As far as the game itself, I can see that the original CT fans will love
it....I bet you can't tell I'm a diehard 2300AD and TNE fanatic...  :)

Anyone have an errata yet???

Joel

 


------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:38:03 -0400
Subject: RE: Pbem Game

I would be more than interested in playing in your campaign.  Which 
version Traveller rules are you going to be using?

A bit of background on me.  I have been gaming for past 10years.  I 
have played MegaTraveller for about 5 or 6.  I've looked at TNE and 
have the books, matter of fact have all but newest.  I have played in 
PBeM games for past 4years.  Originally starting off on local BBS 
running Vampire.  I have played several PBeM over Internet.  Let me 
know any further details & I create a character.

Clint

- ----------
From: 	JD.Burdick@t-online.de[SMTP:JD.Burdick@t-online.de]
Sent: 	Monday, August 26, 1996 2:17 PM
To: 	Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Pbem Game

Players Wanted:

I am looking for 6-8 players interested in PBEM Traveller game.  The 
campaign
takes place in the year 4519 A.D. by the Terran calendar.  It will tie 
into
Milieu 0 later.  The party lives in the Confederation of Altec, Altec 
Subsector,
Fornast Sector.  The party is in an ideal position.  The Conferation 
is starting
to expand as the period of the Long Night draws to an end.  I am using 
Gal2.1 to
run the campaign.  Part of the turn information will be Gal2.1 txt 
files for the
players.  The campaign is starting to shape up really well.  The 
campaign is
setup to lean towards the economic side of Traveller.  If you are 
interested
send me an email at JD.Burdick@t-online.de   Be sure to include what 
type of
character you like to play.

JD
Twolf



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:53:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More T4 comments

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Joel Lovell wrote:

[Disparaging comments about T4 art snipped]

> Anyone have an errata yet???

Check IG's web site:  http://www.imperiumgames.com

They have the known errata list up there, with fixes.  They're adding to 
it as they find new errors.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:48:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Pbem Game

Jim,
	Sign me up!  I'm not really all that familiar with PBEM's so if you 
have some background on how you'll be running it, let me know.  Also, it's 
been AGES since I've done any Traveller.  I'm a recent subscriber(?) to the 
Traveller list.  I was thinking of playing either a Scout or Navy character.  
BTW, do the new rules account for special forces training (ala SEAL team, 
etc.)?  Hope to hear from you soon!

Matt

------------------------------

From: Rich ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:08:16 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

jbucsek@delsplace.com wrote:
> 
> Really good gaming stores seem to be at a premium anywhere (I miss 1701
> Enterprise in Orlando)

I remember Enterprise 1701 from back when I  was stationed at NTC Orlando in 1977-78! 
What a great store it was even then. I used to _walk_ there from the base (several 
miles!), and it was there that I bought my first copies of D&D and Classic Traveller 
there, as well as Ogre/GEV and lots and lots of other stuff.

I guess you always remember your First Really Good Game Store ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:02:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Laser/Military Weapons

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Still waiting for my T4 hardcover.

Good things come to those who wait, Rob ;)

> 
> However, designing FF&S weapons is easy. 

If you like mutant math tests . . . :) hey, my players _liked_ designing custom 15mm 
electroplasmatic slugthrowers, so I didn't care.

> Could some kind soul post the rules
> to convert TNE weapon designs to T4 weapons designs?  This should be just a
> matter of revising the damage/penetration/recoil values.

I'd like a systematic conversion system, too. Maybe there will be one in CSC or JTAS 
(grrr...), but one is not provided in T4.

> (Unless T4 went back to fixed ranges - ie. medium is 5m-50m - rather than keeping   > 
> range as a  function of weapon.)

That is the case. 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:46:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

Joe Walsh wrote:

 
> Very true.  One of my friends is a comics fan who is pretty knowledgeable
> about the industry.  He's told me that some pretty weird stuff has been
> happening to the distribution channels (Marvel now distributes its own
> stuff, apparently, and won't let others distribute it) which, when
> coupled with the well-known CCG fiasco, does (as you said) explain comic
> store owner's being reticent about carrying anything that isn't known to
> be a big seller.

I know all about this from my FLGSO. He's a frustrating situation for him. Since comics 
stores _are_, in small towns like the one I live in (~50K population, with 100K+ 
population centers 20 minutes away), the de-facto game stores, the distribution wars are 
going to hurt the stores. I wonder if this is a plot like the one Games Workshop has 
been rumored to be hatching?  GW now distributes its own line, just like Marvel (DC 
Comics go through an exclusive distributor now, too). In a few years, GW, according to 
speculative rumor, analyzes the sales data and picks, based on the data, locations in 
which to open its own stores! GW _is_ a store chain in the UK and parts of the US now, 
so the reasoning goes, why not complete the vertical integration of the industry? 

The implications for Small Local Game Stores are frightening.

<<sniperoo>> 

> 
> I'm trying to convince one local store to carry it.  I asked the owner to
> special-order a copy of T4 for me.  When I pick it up next week, I'm
> going to try to whip up some interest in the game among whoever will
> listen to me.  :) 

I managed to do that for TNE by _running a game in the store_. My FLGS has gaming space, 
and I put it to use for TNE. Time to do the same with T4.

> "Yes!  I've been waiting for this game!  Look at
> these beautiful full-color pictures!  Did you hear game stores across the
> nation are selling out of this thing?"  Well, maybe not that extreme, but
> . . . :)

You might breathlessly add  "It's all over the  _Internet_!" <evil grin>.

> 
> Heck, it's in my best interest to get stores around here to carry it.  I
> have to have /somewhere/ to buy the loads and loads of T4 merchandise
> that is soon to be pouring out of the numerous companies who are (or soon
> will be) liscensed to make official Traveller items. :)

You can always add "If _you_ won't get T4 merchandise for me, I'll take my custom 
elsewhere!" There's no better way to get a businessman's attention. Unless you don't 
really have an elsewhere. ;)


What's this about liscensed products coming out soon? I hope IG and Marc adopt GDW's 
late-70s CT licensing strategy (liscense small startups to make goodies that grap store 
shelf-space and increase exposure . . . ) to T4. 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:26:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> > My group likes to bring "Crunch Guns" on barhopping runs <sigh>.
> 
> That sounds mighty familiar, Rich. :)

Funny, I keep hearing a kind of Jimminy Cricket in my head that tells me "It's _my_ 
fault" when PCs think "dressing formal" means wearing their combat-armor tuxedo instead 
of casual battle dress to tea . . . but when I try to get them to think "subtle," 
the players revolt (it happened once . . . .) So I give them combat-heavy adventures, 
and ol' JC keeps yakking in that voice only I can hear;) 

 
> Too true.  I hope IG sticks to the schedule outlined in Marc Miller's
> seminar at Gen-Con:  one product each month FOREVER. :)

Yes, I'm hoping that IG sticks to the schedule and maintains the quality they have shown 
so far with T4. The monthly release schedule has advantages: (1) It makes business sense 
for a small game company trying to expand, pay the bills, and maybe make a profit in the 
meantime; (2) The fans aren't disappointed by long waits; (3) Frequent releases mean 
frequent reviews means more name exposure to the gaming public means more goodies for us 
to snap up;)

> 
> > I have _very_ high hopes for CSC. My hopes are so high that I'll not be disappointed too
> > much if the book is released late _as long as IG publishes *all* the gear_. If they fail
> > to be complete and rush the book into release, I'll be unhappy. I'm expecting a preview
> > in JTAS 26.
> 
> [sigh]  Thanks for reminding me of the other things I'm dying to get,
> Rich. :)  JTAS, the Citizens of the Imperium club materials, . . .

Sorry about making you so wistful, Joe ;) I'm going to order my _Citizens_ stuff and 
register my character, LtCol. Wu Li, Aubaini Marines, (rtd), callsign "Kung Fu," newly 
converted over from TNE (not too difficult). I'll type up Li's character sheet and post 
it sometime.  As for JTAS, I'm having my FLGSO (Friendly Local Neighborhood Game Store 
Owner) get it on comics-saver/standing order for me, just like he does for _Shadis_ and 
comic books.

> 
> The good thing is that IG has two products planned for December.  That
> means two lucky relatives will have the opportunity to buy Traveller
> stuff for me as Christmas presents. ;)

Lucky you. My relatives think gaming is some kind of wierd  mind-control cult, and that 
by buying non-gaming stuff for me, that I'll be "saved" from gaming's pernicious 
influence.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 16:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Hi-Temp Nitpicking

Thus spake Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>:

> On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
 
[snip]
 
> > While there is some thermal effect on the firer attributed to these 
> > weapons, it is typically sufficient for the firer to be wearing 
> > flame-retardant clothing if using a compensated weapon.  I'd point out 
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> So, for example, your average UseNETter would be safe, then?

Relatively.  There'd still be a lot of toasted AOLe^H^H^H^Hnewbies which 
would probably lead to another round of attempted Net legislation.

Of course, the real nice thing is that a plasma bolt can't travel through 
an ISDN line...
 
> - -Joe, whose sense of humor leaves much to be desired.

Pobody's nerfect...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:13:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> That's a go example of how NOT to win customers and become profitable.
> 
> I've gotta start a games store.  I'll make a mint!  All I have to do is 
> treat my customers like intelligent human beings, and I'll be rolling in 
> it!  Anyone know a good demographics researcher? :)

  Thus has been demonstrated, not once, but THREE times locally. There's a
well-known gamer indivivual who's made a career of selling gamer material
and has for many years worked for minimal compensation (fwiw, he now owns
his own store) in other peoples' businesses. Each time he was hired on,
the owners of said businesses became the beneficiaries of a large consumer
base who knew him and appreciated his gamer expertise and business acumen.

   Time and again, the same thing happened: business would go well, until
a blip in the economy happened and they ignored his advice or otherwise
laid him off, etc. This forced him to consider other options for
employment and yet another business owner becane the beneficiary of his
expertise while the previous shop's game business takes a dive. Finally,
one owner got wise and helped him finance another shop in another
town close by while still retaining him as a buyer.

  Funny thing was, the other shops NEVER clued in. Taking the loss in
business as "proof" that he was wrong and they were right.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 17:44:10 PST
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

In mail you write:

> Joe Walsh wrote to Rich Ostorero:
>> 
>> While I'm not known for my military campaigns, I do like to have a good
>> range of weapons available.  You just never know when you'll need a TL 7
>> Light Howitzer. :) 
>
> My group likes to bring "Crunch Guns" on barhopping runs <sigh>.

Heck, some of the folks I hang out with want to buy the current
"equivalent" of a crunch gun and rag it along to our "plinking" trips.
Given that we already have everything from .177 pellet rifles up to SKS
"assualt rifles",  plus various shotguns and pistols it won't really be
noticed much. :-)

Seriously, some of the bolt action .50 cal rifles being sold right now
would seriously inconvenience high tech troops. 

Consider the "fun" of trying to invade a planet with a scattered
population (say something like Alaska, the Yukon or the Northwest
Territories) and some native "nuisance" animals along the lines of a
grizzly crossed with a wolverine. 

*Everyone* will have rifles capable of punching holes in battledress
given the right ammo. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 17:39:46 PST
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

In mail you write:

> Too true.  I hope IG sticks to the schedule outlined in Marc Miller's 
> seminar at Gen-Con:  one product each month FOREVER. :)

If those are their plans I hope they get to the point where they have
enough "slack" built into the schedule to allow for "holding back" a
product for more testing or editing if needed. No rushing things to
market just to meet a schedule.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:26:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Laser/Military Weapons

At 06:34 pm 8/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Still waiting for my T4 hardcover.  
>
>However, designing FF&S weapons is easy.  Could some kind soul post the rules
>to convert TNE weapon designs to T4 weapons designs?  This should be just a
>matter of revising the damage/penetration/recoil values.  (Unless T4 went
>back to fixed ranges - ie. medium is 5m-50m - rather than keeping range as a
>function of weapon.)

        Unfortunately, they did go back to fixed range bands for everything.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:26:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

At 07:44 pm 8/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I'm trying to convince one local store to carry it.  I asked the owner to 
>special-order a copy of T4 for me.  When I pick it up next week, I'm 
>going to try to whip up some interest in the game among whoever will 
>listen to me.  :)   "Yes!  I've been waiting for this game!  Look at 
>these beautiful full-color pictures!  Did you hear game stores across the 
>nation are selling out of this thing?"  Well, maybe not that extreme, but 

        What's extreme about that? You have one data point -- Compleat Gamer
in CSprings sold out. One data point is all anybody needs to claim a trend,
nowadays...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #350
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 27 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 351

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Cold Fusion
         2. Re: Cold Fusion
         3. Re: Cold Fusion
         4. Re: Random Thoughts
         5. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         6. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         7. Re: Random Thoughts
         8. Joe finds a FLGS (but still hasn't found a life[G])
         9. Gaming Convention -- Ann Arbor, MI
        10. Know Thy Customer (Was: Good News and Bad News)
        11. Re: T4 Availability
        12. Re: Pbem--Slots filled
        13. Re: T4 Availability
        14. Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        15. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        16. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        17. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:26:35 -0600
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

At 03:41 am 8/26/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>        Check out the fuel usage for the cold fusion and see how long you
>>can run a starship with a reasonable amount of fuel. That was supposed 
>to be
>>the distinguishing characteristic and the reason why starships don't use
>>cold fusion.
>>        This dichotomy was forced on us by the "fusion+" thing that forced
>>us to multiply minimum powerplant size by 10 below TL 12. Greg Porter still
>>wanted 15G family speeders available, hence cold fusion.
>
>So, does this mean that they are using the FF&S Cold Fusion for small
>craft?  

        Well, the original intent was that NOBODY have decent small craft
prior to TL12. That was to provide the "hook" that gave the nascent Imperium
a boost. Unfortunately, they didn't think things out well enough -- if you
can have a 15G speeder, you can certainly have a 15G fighter.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:58:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

 
>         Well, the original intent was that NOBODY have decent small craft
> prior to TL12. That was to provide the "hook" that gave the nascent Imperium
> a boost. Unfortunately, they didn't think things out well enough -- if you
> can have a 15G speeder, you can certainly have a 15G fighter.

Not necessarily.  If the speeder requires a planetary mass nearby...
Hmm, what about saying gs as stated are for sea-level use on a 1 g
world.  Use it on the moon, and the accel. drops to 1/6, on mars,
1/3, etc..  The 15g fighter would do
15*acceleration_of_gravity_at_this_altitude.  By the time it gets to
orbit, it'll be doing "normal" g loads.  The real problem is
g-compensation.  That can't be broken regardless.

Then factor in aerodynamics.  Regardless of thrust, it can't go too
fast or it'll come apart due to pressure/temp. loading.  Add to that
that it'll leave the atmosphere after a few seconds at that accel.
and be on its way to whatever max limit grav tech works (100
diameters, right?) and things look better.  At worst you get *nasty*
interface fighters... but is that a bad thing?

- -Merrick



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:35:00 -0600
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

At 07:58 pm 8/26/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
> 
>>         Well, the original intent was that NOBODY have decent small craft
>> prior to TL12. That was to provide the "hook" that gave the nascent Imperium
>> a boost. Unfortunately, they didn't think things out well enough -- if you
>> can have a 15G speeder, you can certainly have a 15G fighter.
>
>Not necessarily.  If the speeder requires a planetary mass nearby...

        But if you have a deep-space thrust agency that requires power, it
won't care too much whether it gets that power from "hot fusion" or "cold
fusion" unless it's something like HEPlaR. At TL11, you get thruster plates.
So if you can build big ships with hot fusion, you can build little ships
with cold fusion. The little guys will suck down fuel much faster, and hence
have a more limited endurance. But who wants to be stuck in a fighter for a
whole year (standard endurance for "hot fusion").

        So the TL11 guys _can_ build fighters and other small craft. Which
was the whole idea fusion+ was supposed to prevent -- prior to TL12 nobody
was supposed to be able to build anything smaller than about 100Td and still
have room in it for anything but the powerplant.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:49:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Rich ostorero wrote:

[cut]
> going to hurt the stores. I wonder if this is a plot like the one Games Workshop has 
> been rumored to be hatching?  GW now distributes its own line, just like Marvel (DC 
> Comics go through an exclusive distributor now, too). In a few years, GW, according to 
> speculative rumor, analyzes the sales data and picks, based on the data, locations in 
> which to open its own stores! GW _is_ a store chain in the UK and parts of the US now, 
> so the reasoning goes, why not complete the vertical integration of the industry? 
> 
> The implications for Small Local Game Stores are frightening.

Very true.  If TSR follows suit, then all the big names will have their 
own distribution channels...and possibly their own stores at some point.  
Imagine going to three different game stores so you can buy what you want!


[snip]

> You can always add "If _you_ won't get T4 merchandise for me, I'll take my custom 
> elsewhere!" There's no better way to get a businessman's attention. Unless you don't 
> really have an elsewhere. ;)

Ah, but I now have a FLGS!  I just found it tonight.  More on that in a 
post to follow.


> What's this about liscensed products coming out soon? I hope IG and Marc adopt GDW's 
> late-70s CT licensing strategy (liscense small startups to make goodies that grap store 
> shelf-space and increase exposure . . . ) to T4. 

That was just speculation on my part.  I don't know of anyone who 
actually has products for T4 in the works (except for the Silent Death T4 
Space Battles that was mentioned here by Dave Golden).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:55:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Rich ostorero wrote:

> Funny, I keep hearing a kind of Jimminy Cricket in my head that tells me "It's _my_ 
> fault" when PCs think "dressing formal" means wearing their combat-armor tuxedo instead 
> of casual battle dress to tea . . . but when I try to get them to think "subtle," 
> the players revolt (it happened once . . . .) So I give them combat-heavy adventures, 
> and ol' JC keeps yakking in that voice only I can hear;) 

Geez, you hose the players in a bar a few dozen times, and they think 
you're /always/ going to do that. :)


> Yes, I'm hoping that IG sticks to the schedule and maintains the quality they have shown 
> so far with T4. The monthly release schedule has advantages: (1) It makes business sense 
> for a small game company trying to expand, pay the bills, and maybe make a profit in the 
> meantime; (2) The fans aren't disappointed by long waits; (3) Frequent releases mean 
> frequent reviews means more name exposure to the gaming public means more goodies for us 
> to snap up;)

I hadn't thought about (3).  Good point!


> Sorry about making you so wistful, Joe ;) I'm going to order my _Citizens_ stuff and 
> register my character, LtCol. Wu Li, Aubaini Marines, (rtd), callsign "Kung Fu," newly 
> converted over from TNE (not too difficult). I'll type up Li's character sheet and post 
> it sometime.  As for JTAS, I'm having my FLGSO (Friendly Local Neighborhood Game Store 
> Owner) get it on comics-saver/standing order for me, just like he does for _Shadis_ and 
> comic books.

Ah, another Shadis reader!  That's the only gaming mag I currently 
subscribe to. (Well, I have a subscription in for JTAS, but I don't 
consider that "current" since I haven't seen the first issue yet.)


> Lucky you. My relatives think gaming is some kind of wierd  mind-control cult, and that 
> by buying non-gaming stuff for me, that I'll be "saved" from gaming's pernicious 
> influence.

/Still/?  Sheesh!  

I thought of trying to get a game up at the Republican Convention, but 
decided against it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:02:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> If those are their plans I hope they get to the point where they have
> enough "slack" built into the schedule to allow for "holding back" a
> product for more testing or editing if needed. No rushing things to
> market just to meet a schedule.

I agree, they should test things more.  Hopefully, they'll have their 
labor distributed properly, and therefore they'll be spending months on 
each release, but each release will have a different group working on 
it.  (This is what Intel does - several years ago, group "A" was working 
on the 486 while group "B" worked on the Pentium.  Once the design of the 
486 was complted, group "A" started working on the Pentium Pro.)

Since they have each product assigned to a specific individual (Don 
Perrin on Starships, Greg Porter on CSC, etc.), this should be the case.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:04:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         What's extreme about that? You have one data point -- Compleat Gamer
> in CSprings sold out. One data point is all anybody needs to claim a trend,
> nowadays...

That's right!  Plus, it's an election year, so it is pretty much expected 
anyway!  Good point. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:25:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Joe finds a FLGS (but still hasn't found a life[G])

Howdy,

Tonight I found a Friendly Local Game Store...finally!

As mentioned several times previously, I've been trying to find a good 
games store here in NE Illinois, but to no avail. 

Today I wanted to stop at a hobby shop and pick up a 000 brush and some 
other miniatures painting supplies.  So, I picked up the phone book and 
looked up the number for the local hobby store.  I called....it rang and 
rang and rang.  Apparently, they're closed on Mondays. 

So, I decided to check for other hobby shops in my area.  I scanned down 
the "Hobby Retailers" listings, and found "Friends' Hobbies" in Waukegan, 
IL (which is only a few minutes from where I live).  The little 
yellow-pages ad stated they sold dollhouses, models, painting supplies, 
miniatures, wargames...and role-playing games!

I'd always looked for games stores under "Game Retailers," so I'd missed 
this one.  I decided to give it a try.  It probably wouldn't have a 
greater selection of RPGs than the comic shop, but it should have the 
painting supplies I needed.

Carole and I made the trip right after work (well, not /right/ after - 
there was the little matter of my muffler falling off on the way home. 
:(  Luckily, I live close to a Midas muffler shop, so I was able to have 
it taken care of by 7:00, early enough to get to the hobby store, which 
closes at 10:00).  

When we got there, we saw a small building that didn't look too 
promising.  I figured we would be disappointed.  Boy, was I wrong!

The first good sign came when I saw a cat just inside the door.  Anyone 
who likes cats can't be all bad. :)  When we got inside, we found it was one 
of those stores that are so /packed/ with goods that there is hardly room 
to walk.  They have /everything/!  Huge displays of paints; thousands of 
miniatures; hundreds of RPG games and supplements; tons of wargames.  
What a find!

I asked the owner (Robert Bigelow - some of you may recall his byline 
from the numerous reviews he did for Dragon Magazine several years ago) 
whether he had T4 - and he did!  Several copies!  He also had many of the 
RAFM TNE miniatures, and I was able to buy the few blister packs that RAFM 
doesn't stock any more. :) :)

I also picked up a minatures case, a nice 000 brush, and Carole got a 
very nice B-17 miniature.  Everything was discounted by about 10%, too!  

I was impressed, to say the least.  As an acid-test, I asked whether he 
carried HoL.  He does!  I got no lectures from him about the 
unwholesomeness of that game, either (unlike my experience at Games 
Plus).  ;)

Carole and I talked to the owner for about 1/2 an hour, then he had one 
of the guys who were hanging out there show us the club room.  It is 
an 1100 square foot room, with an extensive library (with board games, 
RPGs, wargames, miniatures, and scenery), a kitchen, 6 large tabletops 
and 2 HUGE tabletops.  Very nice!

As I said, we were impressed.  This is definitely the place I'll be 
spending my gaming dollars from now on. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:26:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gaming Convention -- Ann Arbor, MI

The U*CON Gaming Convention is being held in Ann Arbor, MI, on October
25-27th.  We're soliciting events from GMs at this point -- and if you get
one in before September 2nd, you're eligible for a $50 gift certificate
from a local gaming store.  (And all GMs get in free.)

I'm posting this to the TML because I hope some folks will come to the
convention and run some T4 (or CT, or MT, or TNE) events.  I usually run
one, but I'm chairing the con this year, so I won't have time to.  It's a
big con for a local con; we're expecting between 600 and 700 attendees.

For more information about U*CON, email ucon96info@umich.edu.  To run an
event, email ucon96events@umich.edu.  We also have a Web page at
http://www.deathstar.org/~ucon.

Thank you, and hope to see you there!

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:42:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Know Thy Customer (Was: Good News and Bad News)

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>   Thus has been demonstrated, not once, but THREE times locally. There's a
> well-known gamer indivivual who's made a career of selling gamer material
> and has for many years worked for minimal compensation (fwiw, he now owns
> his own store) in other peoples' businesses. Each time he was hired on,
> the owners of said businesses became the beneficiaries of a large consumer
> base who knew him and appreciated his gamer expertise and business acumen.

An expert gamer, AND he's knowledgeable about running a business?!  What 
a treasure of an employee!


>    Time and again, the same thing happened: business would go well, until
> a blip in the economy happened and they ignored his advice or otherwise
> laid him off, etc. This forced him to consider other options for
> employment and yet another business owner becane the beneficiary of his
> expertise while the previous shop's game business takes a dive. Finally,
> one owner got wise and helped him finance another shop in another
> town close by while still retaining him as a buyer.

That last guy was smart.  You could do much worse for a business partner.


>   Funny thing was, the other shops NEVER clued in. Taking the loss in
> business as "proof" that he was wrong and they were right.

Who was it that said, "Humans are the only ratinalizing animal?"  :)

Thanks for the great post!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:27:59 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

Rich ostorero wrote:
> 
> I guess you always remember your First Really Good Game Store ;)
> 
The Citadel in New London, CT, USA, '81-'85.

	:-)

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 06:37 +0100
Subject: Re: Pbem--Slots filled

Thanks for the response to the player wanted ad.  I have enough players to start 
the game in the next couple of days.  I am putting together a waiting list in 
case more slots open later or I find time to run a second game concurrently. Ha! 
Ha!  Again, thanks for the response.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:20:16 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Availability

Tx all for replies!  T4 arrived at several game shops in Wash. DC area on
Aug. 23 and reportedly is selling v. well... - Bill

At 12:23 AM 8/27/96 EST, you wrote:
>Rich ostorero wrote:
>> 
>> I guess you always remember your First Really Good Game Store ;)
>> 
>The Citadel in New London, CT, USA, '81-'85.
>
>	:-)
>
>Matt McL
>
>


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:47:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>I've recently acquired several dozen TNE-era Traveller starship 
>miniatures by RAFM.  While I've painted a few hundred fantasy miniatures 
>in my time (long ago), I'm new to starships.  I need some assistance from 
>those who are more experienced with this sort of thing.

Didn't we just have this discussion a few months ago?  I think it was right
after feudal technocracy and just before rock dropping.  Don't get me wrong;
I enjoyed the painting discussion, and am happy to start again.

I think that we came to the following (admittedly pedestrian) conclusions:
Ships engaging in space combat would ordinarily be matte black, possibly
with a few white specks.  Ships involved in military or covert operations on
or near planetary surfaces would be camouflaged appropriately to the planet.
Merchant and civilian ships could be painted in any color scheme, depending
primarily on the owner's whim or corporate policy, as applicable.  That does
leave it wide open.

>My main problem is in color choice.  Now, obviously I could just go with 

>The biggest problem I'm having is in painting the details.  /Should/ they 

Joe, you appear to have some aesthetic problems.  I recommend that you try
several different approaches, then scan them into your web site so that we
can vote on the best ones.

One approach that I've taken for camouflage has been to go out into nature
and try to duplicate the colors present there.  For example, I painted a
metal toy fighter plane in various shades of gray to match the rocks on the
beach at Point Reyes; it looks great today, and was nearly invisible at the
beach.  The bark of the London Plane Tree is also inspiring, as are the
colors of the desert (sage grey, dark red-brown, yellows, etc.) (I've lived
in Idaho and Utah).  

You don't need to limit the use of natural colors to camouflage situations,
but can also apply them to civilian ships.

As far as painting details, by which I assume you mean hatches, weapons
systems, etc., I usually pick some of them out in some way, depending on the
ship.  For example, the RAFM Type S Scout is too small to do much detailing;
I just painted it flat black, put white dots on the maneuver drives, and
added an Imperial sunburst (red for Scouts).  On larger models, I've used
metallic colors for some outside details (which looks good on matte black)
like guns, but also earth tones and grays for bits of hardware.  I usually
paint bridge viewports yellow-green (like on the SDB).  

I try to avoid using too clashing colors to pick out details on ships (even
Vargr ships), but sometimes use them on aircraft or small craft models.

Dry-brushing is another technique worth mastering.  You can improve the
depth and texture of a model by lightly brushing a very dry brush with just
a little paint in a slightly lighter shade of the base color across textured
areas.  This helps even matte black ship avoid looking dull.

You can get a color wheel at an art supply store, which will guide you in
mixing colors.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 01:21:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

 
> As far as painting details, by which I assume you mean hatches, weapons
> systems, etc., I usually pick some of them out in some way, depending on the
> ship.  For example, the RAFM Type S Scout is too small to do much detailing;
> I just painted it flat black, put white dots on the maneuver drives, and
> added an Imperial sunburst (red for Scouts).  On larger models, I've used
> metallic colors for some outside details (which looks good on matte black)
> like guns, but also earth tones and grays for bits of hardware.  I usually
> paint bridge viewports yellow-green (like on the SDB).  

I found a neat thing.  It's called "Color Tag."  It is an iron on
material (comes with a tiny, low temp iron) available in many
pantone colors.  Print your detail on the laser printer, and iron on
the color tag, wherever you have black it colors.  Make, say a
sunburst (i did :-)) but _negative_.  The colortag will color the
paper and leave a colored area where there was white on the mylar
sheet it comes on.

The result is a sheet of little decals minus the adhesive.  Then dull
coat it on.  Looks really, really good.  Works for all kinds of
stuff.  I scanned the insignia from the MT Rebellion book and
reduced them to put on all my 1:5000 traveller minis (my own, BTW).

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 01:26:03 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

 
> Heck, some of the folks I hang out with want to buy the current
> "equivalent" of a crunch gun and rag it along to our "plinking" trips.
> Given that we already have everything from .177 pellet rifles up to SKS
> "assualt rifles",  plus various shotguns and pistols it won't really be
> noticed much. :-)
> 
> Seriously, some of the bolt action .50 cal rifles being sold right now
> would seriously inconvenience high tech troops. 

I was at the range once... maybe 30 people sighting in hunting
rifles... bang.  bang, bang.  bang, bang, bang, BOOOOOM!  everyone
looks right.  The last guy on the right had a bolt action .50 cal.
Wow.  He shoots it in competition at absurdly long ranges (1000+
yards).  Those rounds went *deep* into the berm.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:19:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Didn't we just have this discussion a few months ago?  I think it was right
> after feudal technocracy and just before rock dropping.  Don't get me wrong;
> I enjoyed the painting discussion, and am happy to start again.

Oop.  I didn't mean to wander into a flame topic.  :(


> I think that we came to the following (admittedly pedestrian) conclusions:
> Ships engaging in space combat would ordinarily be matte black, possibly
> with a few white specks.  Ships involved in military or covert operations on
> or near planetary surfaces would be camouflaged appropriately to the planet.
> Merchant and civilian ships could be painted in any color scheme, depending
> primarily on the owner's whim or corporate policy, as applicable.  That does
> leave it wide open.

Huh.  So, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. have been right in making 
what I consider to be boring-looking ships, but wrong in using white 
instead of black.  


> Joe, you appear to have some aesthetic problems.  I recommend that you try
> several different approaches, then scan them into your web site so that we
> can vote on the best ones.

Heh.  Well, I like the look of the dark metallic iron color from Armory, 
with details painted in dark versions of other colors.  It may not be 
realistic, but it does look pleasing.

But, if black is the way to go...

I just despair that there will then be no fun involved in paiting them.  
Get a can of black spraypaint and mass-paint 'em. [sigh]


> One approach that I've taken for camouflage has been to go out into nature
> and try to duplicate the colors present there.  For example, I painted a
> metal toy fighter plane in various shades of gray to match the rocks on the
> beach at Point Reyes; it looks great today, and was nearly invisible at the
> beach.  The bark of the London Plane Tree is also inspiring, as are the
> colors of the desert (sage grey, dark red-brown, yellows, etc.) (I've lived
> in Idaho and Utah).  

Camouflage sounds fun.  Kind of strange to think of something in space 
being camouflaged.  I thought ships typically detected eachother at 
ranges too far for the naked eye to be of use.  Or is that a misconception?


> Dry-brushing is another technique worth mastering.  You can improve the
> depth and texture of a model by lightly brushing a very dry brush with just
> a little paint in a slightly lighter shade of the base color across textured
> areas.  This helps even matte black ship avoid looking dull.

I've used dry-brushing with fantasy figures (cloaks, faces, etc.), but 
hadn't thought highlighting would be useful for ships.  Thanks for 
letting me know!


> You can get a color wheel at an art supply store, which will guide you in
> mixing colors.

I think I still have my (home-made) color wheel around somewhere...

Thanks for all the tips on how these things are generally done.  And, 
again, I apologize for staring a topic that is prone to flames.  I didn't 
want that...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 27 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 352

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Random Thoughts
         2. Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)
         3. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         4. Re: Random Thoughts
         5. Re: The Yuppie Character
         6. Re: Re: Random Thoughts
         7. Re: Re: Laser/Military Weapons
         8. Re: Painting Starships.
         9. RE:  IMPERIAL Warrant
        10. RE: Re: Random Thoughts
        11. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        12. Re: Know Thy Customer (Was: Good News and Bad News)
        13. NEW STUFF ON DAVES SITE!!!
        14. Painting Starship Miniatures
        15. Re:Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        16. Starship Aesthetics
        17. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        18. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        19. Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        20. Re: Random Thoughts
        21. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        22. Re: Random Thoughts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:25:19 PST
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

In mail you write:

> I know all about this from my FLGSO. He's a frustrating situation for
> him.  Since comics stores _are_, in small towns like the one I live
> in (~50K population, with 100K+ population centers 20 minutes away),
> the de-facto game stores, the distribution wars are going to hurt the
> stores.

I'm reminded of the situation 20 years ago. The comic stores had to get
comics from whoever had the "lock" on magazine distribution for the
area. And those distributors were geared for supplying things to
grocery stores, variety stores, etc. Which meant that you told them
which titles you wanted and "about" how many you wanted. They'd make
thier order based *loosely* on what their customers numbers were, and
then they'd divvy up the shipment they got *proportionally*. So a comic
shop would order 100 copies and might get 50 or 200. This is not
terribly workable for subscriptions. :-)

And, since they were afraid that the comic shops would sell comics,
then take them back "in trade", then return them as "unsold" for the
refund, they wouldn't let comic stores return unsold stock! Which,
combined with the inability to get the exact number they'd ordered made
finances a *real* problem. (Can you tell that I used to help out at a
comic shop back then? :-)

Eventually, this led to the comic stores ordering from out of state
outfits, in spite of the higher charges, and the rise of new
distributors geared to the comic market. 


> I wonder if this is a plot like the one Games Workshop has been
> rumored to be hatching?  GW now distributes its own line, just like
> Marvel (DC Comics go through an exclusive distributor now, too). In a
> few years, GW, according to speculative rumor, analyzes the sales
> data and picks, based on the data, locations in which to open its own
> stores! GW _is_ a store chain in the UK and parts of the US now, so
> the reasoning goes, why not complete the vertical integration of the
> industry?

If such did occur. GW would find themselves facing an anti-trust suit
rather quickly. You aren't allowed to "lock" the market that way. 

> The implications for Small Local Game Stores are frightening.

We could wind up with "chain" game stores, but the small local store
would still have to be able to exist. Because restricting the
availability of games to them can only be done in limited ways without
running into legal problems. And trust me, *somebody* being squeezed
out would find a lawyer willing to take the case on contingency...

> You can always add "If _you_ won't get T4 merchandise for me, I'll
> take my custom elsewhere!" There's no better way to get a
> businessman's attention. Unless you don't really have an elsewhere.
> ;)

That's why Bay News thought they could get away with screwing the comic
stores. Between being a small part of their customer base, and Bay
being "the only game in town", they figured they didn't have to care.
They found out differently when someone got the money to start a local
distribution company for comics and related stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:19:56 PST
Subject: Re: Good News and Bad News (Was: Re: T4 availability)

In mail you write:

> Unfortunately, most retail employees don't really care about
> profitablity, they just want their paycheck.  As far as customers go,
> they're just more work.  Haven't you ever been studiously ignored by
> clerks?  Now, *owners* are a different story. <g>

I've been ignored. Especially by chain computer store clerks when I
wander in on Saturday wearing jeans and a T-shirt. I got my revenge
once though. Same guy showed up on Monday at my then job to try getting
us to order their latest and greatest system as our company standard.

Picture the look on his face when after being referred to me, he
suddenly realizes *why* I look familar. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 15:08:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

It's not 'official', but here's the colour schemes I'm using:

Free Trader:
  - gloss red, black nose & windows, matt gray nozzles and back flanges
  - gloss white with red equatorial stripe, windows & nozzles as above

Scout/Courier:
  - gloss white, gloss black window, red Imperial sunburst

System Defense Boat:
  - flat battle gray with light ghost gray tiger stripes, black windows &
nozzles

Yacht:
  - gloss green with french blue stripes
  - metallic blue with gold stripes

Lab Ship:
  - gloss white with scattered coloured panels, attached cutter in gray

Donosev Survey Ship:
  - gloss white with scattered coloured panels, coloured ducting, red cutter
with blue modules

Far Trader:
  - steel with yellow safety stripes around doors and ports, will add logo to
tail and rust stains.

In general, I'd go for bright colours - in space, you aren't worried about
visual detection anyway.  Atmospheric fighters would have cammo colours.

So far I've been fairly Western in colour scheme.  I'm going to do the other
far trader in East Indian style, if I can (like those old locomotives that
have been in the family for generations).

Are there any mentions of colours for Regency ships?  Couldn't find any, but
was skimming book.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 15:17:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

>If you've never experienced the additional fun you can have 
>when you use more of your intelligence, why would you want to go to the 
>trouble? :)

Point.  But if your view of the world is taken from the D&D manual?  I've had
kids tell me that the ancient Greek myths were wrong, citing their D&D monter
manuals as 'proof'.  I had one kid tell me that Wizards of teh Coast was
responsible for 'certifying' new games, and that nothing could be an official
role playing game (like Magic) until WotC approved it!


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 15:13:59 GMT
Subject: Re: The Yuppie Character

>Remove Low Passage; add +1 Soc (what's the point of being a yuppie if you
>can't social-climb?).

With the proviso that you can't be enobled.

On the other hand, leave it as a low passage - just remember the rules from
MT about conspicuous consumption.  Let the yuppie _buy_ increases in social
level with those credits, at 100 000Cr per level!

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 15:20:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Random Thoughts

>I'm not saying all store owners should give away merchandise.  I just 
>wish they'd follow the spirit of that example, and make the effort to 
>build a relationship with customers.

In Toronto, Mike Cheney at Sci-Fi World gives away single figures at the
painting workshops he runs.  Always struck me as being an excellent idea:
give a customer a figure, teach him/her how to paint it so it looks nice, and
they'll be back for more figures (and paints and brushes).

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 15:27:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Laser/Military Weapons

>> Still waiting for my T4 hardcover.
>
>Good things come to those who wait, Rob ;)

Uh, yeah.  You know, given that IG has had my money since June, it would be
nice to get a little bonus when the books do arrive.  Now, with 2200 sold
(and delayed), it would have to be something that wouldn't cost IG much
money.  What about a free citizen of the Imperium?


>> (Unless T4 went back to fixed ranges - ie. medium is 5m-50m - rather than
keeping   > 
>> range as a  function of weapon.)
>
>That is the case. 

Merde.  Looks like I'll be running Milieu 0 with my stripped-down version of
TNE rules.

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:01:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Painting Starships.

Hi all.  Just wanted to tell Joe Walsh:  The painting thing is not a
flamewar topic, just a "done to death" topic (James Dempsey, are you
listening? :-).  So don't worry about it.  The major points of view are as
follows:

1.  Military ships would be matt black to be camouflaged against space.
Civilian ships can be painted pretty much any color.

2.  All ships have cameleon skins according to the SOM, so paint them any
way you want.  Colorful military ships can be assumed to be in "parade
mode".  They turn black while on missions. 

I tend to favor the second approach, since it allows more artistic
freedom.

Au revoir,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 16:57 +0100
Subject: RE:  IMPERIAL Warrant

I like the general ideas within the warrant.  The only recommendation I have is 
instead of the Grand Empire of the Stars, use the Grand Imperium of the Stars.  
The Provisions have been discussed in earlier threads.  Just keep the provisions 
broad and general.  The calendar, a standardize monetary system, and 
establishment of the Position of Emperor are the most important. 

JD
Twolf





------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 17:17 +0100
Subject: RE: Re: Random Thoughts

>If you've never experienced the additional fun you can have 
>when you use more of your intelligence, why would you want to go to the 
>trouble? :)

Point.  But if your view of the world is taken from the D&D manual?  I've had
kids tell me that the ancient Greek myths were wrong, citing their D&D monter
manuals as 'proof'.  I had one kid tell me that Wizards of teh Coast was
responsible for 'certifying' new games, and that nothing could be an official
role playing game (like Magic) until WotC approved it!

This is scary!  It means that we need to teach more people to play Traveller 
before the masses pass into stupidity.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:52:33 MST7
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

> 
> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:59:46 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
> 
> Help! :)
> 
> I've recently acquired several dozen TNE-era Traveller starship 
> miniatures by RAFM.  While I've painted a few hundred fantasy miniatures 
> in my time (long ago), I'm new to starships.  I need some assistance from 
> those who are more experienced with this sort of thing.

 SNIP


> P.S.  I only have CT and T4.  CT has B&W pictures which are no help at 
> all.  T4 has B&W drawings of the ships included, and Foss color art of 
> ships I've never seen before...not much help there, either.

	Well, Joe, since I haven't painted a miniature in a dogs age, I 
can't much help, but some of the TNE books have color schemes in 
them, and, well, garish is the way to go from their examples. Since 
my books are three miles away, I disremember which ones have the 
color illos; 'Personalities of the Reform Coalition' perhaps.  (I only 
paid $2.50 for it used, and so don't feel too ripped off, but it's 
certainly not a book I'd pay full cover for.)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:51:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Know Thy Customer (Was: Good News and Bad News)

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:
> > expertise while the previous shop's game business takes a dive. Finally,
> > one owner got wise and helped him finance another shop in another
> > town close by while still retaining him as a buyer.
> 
> That last guy was smart.  You could do much worse for a business partner.

  Ted's a great guy. He started out in business selling Comics and CCGs.
Steve introduced him to gaming(tm) and opened his eyes to the potential
profit in rpg's and wargaming. I think Ted's heard a few things about
previous employers from customers as well. ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:03:11 -0700
Subject: NEW STUFF ON DAVES SITE!!!

Morning all...

Well it's morning here I hope it's morning where ever you might be. 8)

I just wanted to get some feed back from people on some of the work I'd 
been doing on Dave Golden's site.  Thus far I've been mostly concerened 
with the scribbling part of the job and haven't had time to get super 
involved in the nuts and bolts parts of the site.

Now before I give you the URL there's a few things I'd like to point out. 
 Aw screw it here's the URL and then all babble on:

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Wilds.html

1)  A couple of these links go nowhere, it's that under construction 
stuff.

2)  I haven't included any UPP data or maps yet and I'm wondering if 
they're really going to be missed.  Mind you that is pretty simple nuts 
and bolts kind of stuff...

3)  I didn't make the art work, that's all Chris Cox's work.  You can 
find his site and more of his magnificent art work here:

http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm

So anyway's I'd love to get some feed back from you all on my stuff.  
What you think, what's it need, what doesn't it need etc.  Thanks in 
advance.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:12:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Painting Starship Miniatures

Rob Prior, Charles Collin, Bruce Johnson, et al:

Thank you for the great information on painting starship miniatures.  
You've given me what I needed in order to put paint to lead with 
confidence. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: JDD7918@ACS.TAMU.EDU
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:39:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re:Painting Traveller starship miniatures

	I think that space colored camoflage could be really interesting.  
And, it is important to keep in mind that camoflage is more than just being 
invisible to the eye.  The comment was made on this subjest that other 
scanners would just negate the effects of any camo painting anyway, but in 
thinking about the "stealth technology" (actually a host of technologies 
used togather to make the ship hard to spot by any type of sensor) I think 
camo is important to traveller.  Maybe traveller doesn't use cloaking per 
se, but interesting camoflage patterns would be really neat.  First of all, 
it wouldn't have to just be plain black.  Nebulae are huge, colorful objects 
in space that cover entire clusters of stars within their boundaries.  Any 
ship that frequents a nebula could be quite colorful.  Any ship that often 
visits planetoid belts or gas giants could be camo-ed 
appropriately as well.  Any ship that wants to loudly proclaim its 
neutrality and/or allegance should be clearly marked.
	
To me it is most important to paint it in a way that you like.  Just because 
the list agrees that a scheme that you think is boring is the most likely 
doesn't mean you should use that scheme.  With a little imagination, you can 
justify any colors you want.  That's always been one of the nicer things 
about traveller-  they give you a game system and let you use your 
imagination to create the universe to game in (besides giving some very 
broad ideas about the empire, rebellion etc.)

Joshua Dyal
J-Dyal@tamu.edu

------------------------------

From: Graham Spearing <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:27:19 GMT
Subject: Starship Aesthetics

In your message dated Tuesday 27, August 1996 Joe wrote :

> Huh.  So, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. have been right in making 
> what I consider to be boring-looking ships, but wrong in using white 
> instead of black.  

It's funny how different people have such different perceptions. Most of my 
gaming group laugh at third Imperium Trav ship pictures - all the grace of shoe 
boxes :) Star Wars, ah now that gets them all going...

Having said that they feel the same way about Trav's high tech bolt action 
rifles, revolvers and 'slow' ftl speeds.

What can you do?

Pip pip 

- -- 
Graham

Visit the Fantasy world of Kalland: http://www.io.com/zunder/kindex.htm


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:14:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:39:14 -0500 (CDT), JDD7918@ACS.TAMU.EDU wrote:

> To me it is most important to paint it in a way that you like.  Just because 
> the list agrees that a scheme that you think is boring is the most likely 
> doesn't mean you should use that scheme.  With a little imagination, you can 
> justify any colors you want.

I agree.  Look at it this way... if you are close enough to a florescent
pink battleship to actually SEE it, you're probably too close  :-)  Colour
schemes would probably be designed more for the benefit of the crew's
morale than that of the enemy (kinda like writing "Hello Hussein!" on a
missile and launching it towards Bagdad... who's gonna see?).

You just can't get the visually pleasing detail you want when using flat
("iron ball") black paint on a small miniature (who wants to squint?).
Sure, the F117A looks aggressive... but only in the daytime.  Look at it at
night and the novelty of its visual stealth technology quickly becomes
boring to the eye.

I can see it now... two fleets converging with angry slogans and nasty
artwork adorning the outsides of their vessels... faxing each other photos
of their ships in an attempt to intimidate the other side  :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 23:27:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

>I think that we came to the following (admittedly pedestrian) conclusions:
>Ships engaging in space combat would ordinarily be matte black, possibly
>with a few white specks. [snip]

Why?  At the ranges they're fighting at, visual detection doesn't count. 
Better to worry about your infra-red signature, neutrino emissions, and radar
cross-section.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 23:33:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

>Kind of strange to think of something in space 
>being camouflaged.  I thought ships typically detected eachother at 
>ranges too far for the naked eye to be of use.  Or is that a misconception?

No, not a misconception.  If the ship is purely a space fighter, such as the
Gazelle, use whatever colours you like.  If it might get involved in
atmospheric combat (eg. SDB) or be sitting on the ground (eg. Merc Cruiser)
then use appropriate cammo.  (I plan on doing my merc cruiser in desert
cammo, as soon as I build a stronger mount - that sucker's too heavy for the
plastic mount it came with!)

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:50:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 07:44 pm 8/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >>I'm trying to convince one local store to carry it.  I asked the owner to
> >special-order a copy of T4 for me.  When I pick it up next week, I'm
> >going to try to whip up some interest in the game among whoever will
> >listen to me.  :)   "Yes!  I've been waiting for this game!  Look at
> >these beautiful full-color pictures!  Did you hear game stores across the
> >nation are selling out of this thing?"  Well, maybe not that extreme, but
> 
>         What's extreme about that? You have one data point -- Compleat Gamer
> in CSprings sold out. One data point is all anybody needs to claim a trend,
> nowadays...

Just to let all of you who are having probs getting T4 know . . . The FLNGS I've 
been bragging about will _mail order_ it for you!

The Comic Grapevine (Lodi, CA) has a Web page at:
http://www.cgrape.com

Or, you can reach Doug Blevins at cgrape@inreach.com

End of commerical. If this is Bad Form, I apologize ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:44:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> 
> Heck, some of the folks I hang out with want to buy the current
> "equivalent" of a crunch gun and rag it along to our "plinking" trips.
> Given that we already have everything from .177 pellet rifles up to SKS
> "assualt rifles",  plus various shotguns and pistols it won't really be
> noticed much. :-)

Sounds like a guy I went hunting with . . . once ;) Just once.

> 
> Seriously, some of the bolt action .50 cal rifles being sold right now
> would seriously inconvenience high tech troops.

With SLAP/sabot ammo, they certainly could. 

> 
> Consider the "fun" of trying to invade a planet with a scattered
> population (say something like Alaska, the Yukon or the Northwest
> Territories) and some native "nuisance" animals along the lines of a
> grizzly crossed with a wolverine.

How 'bout the stubborn, hairless-apelike, two-legged kind who are (1) armed with the 
local brand of Real Big Game Rifle; (2) Know the ground like the back of their gnarled 
hands; and (3) Objects strongly to the presence of _Thems im-PER-eel boys_ coming to 
their world. Toss in something about scarce resources (lanthanium, gold, buxom 
redheads<g>, rare animal pelts) and how the indig inbreeds stand in the way of Progress, 
and you have an adventure!

> 
> *Everyone* will have rifles capable of punching holes in battledress
> given the right ammo.

Damm Tootin'!


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:58:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

Joe Walsh wrote:

> 
> Very true.  If TSR follows suit, then all the big names will have their
> own distribution channels...and possibly their own stores at some point.
> Imagine going to three different game stores so you can buy what you want!

Except perhaps for WotC and other companies that make the leap to the legendary 'mass 
market.' A mass-market strategy would eschew distribution exclusivity because of the 
multiplicity of channels to the various segments of the mass market.
> 

> Ah, but I now have a FLGS!  I just found it tonight.  More on that in a
> post to follow.

Yippee! Let's hear about it ;)
>
> 
> That was just speculation on my part.  I don't know of anyone who
> actually has products for T4 in the works (except for the Silent Death T4
> Space Battles that was mentioned here by Dave Golden).

I thought you might have caught some rumbles from Marc and the IG crew about 
prospective liscenees/products at Gen Con. I'd attend, but being here on the Left Coast 
and relatively poor . . . oh well ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #352
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 28 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 353

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         2. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
         3. Re:Painting Traveller starship miniatures
         4. Re: Random Thoughts
         5. Painting Miniatures
         6. Re: Re: Random Thoughts
         7. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
         8. Gamer's Paradise
         9. Re: T4 Availability & first impressions
        10. TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr
        11. Re: TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr
        12. Hardcovers: when?
        13. IG's new Aslan picture
        14. Fixing T4
        15. Traveller Ship Colours
        16. Traveller-digest V1996 #
        17. Re: Fixing T4
        18. Re: TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #
        20. T4 availability

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:00:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

At 01:21 am 8/27/96 -0600, you wrote:

>The result is a sheet of little decals minus the adhesive.  Then dull
>coat it on.  Looks really, really good.  Works for all kinds of
>stuff.  I scanned the insignia from the MT Rebellion book and
>reduced them to put on all my 1:5000 traveller minis (my own, BTW).

        Any chance of sharing some photos with us? I remember you talking
way back when about creating your own minis. Sounds interesting.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:00:58 -0600
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

At 10:14 pm 8/27/96 GMT, you wrote:
>You just can't get the visually pleasing detail you want when using flat
>("iron ball") black paint on a small miniature (who wants to squint?).
>Sure, the F117A looks aggressive... but only in the daytime.  Look at it at
>night and the novelty of its visual stealth technology quickly becomes
>boring to the eye.

        Not boring at all. Invisible. There've been reports of people
winding up with head and face injuries from walking into it because they
just couldn't see it clearly or judge distance.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:00:55 -0600
Subject: Re:Painting Traveller starship miniatures

At 03:39 pm 8/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>	I think that space colored camoflage could be really interesting.  
>And, it is important to keep in mind that camoflage is more than just being 
>invisible to the eye.  The comment was made on this subjest that other 
>scanners would just negate the effects of any camo painting anyway, but in 
>thinking about the "stealth technology" (actually a host of technologies

        A big thing for camouflage is actually a very "busy" pattern. I.e.
instead of a few large blocks change the color frequently -- look a Marine
Recon tiger stripe. It doesn't alway even have to be "subdued" colors. I
remember an article by G. Harry Stine, talking about a guy who painted a
homebuilt airplane with a hodgepodge of garish colors, and kept getting
"nearmissed" in the pattern. Other pilots' eyes just missed him. I've done
the same thing with a model rocket. Never have found it.

        Something Anne McAffrey used in one of her novels was a pattern of
highly reflective (silver) and highly absorbtive (black) patches. Not only
does it confuse the eye, it could also cause confusion for sensors -- it's
harder (especially for dumb computers) to pick out details and understand
what they're seeing.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:17:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Random Thoughts

On 27 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Point.  But if your view of the world is taken from the D&D manual?  I've had
> kids tell me that the ancient Greek myths were wrong, citing their D&D monter
> manuals as 'proof'.  I had one kid tell me that Wizards of teh Coast was
> responsible for 'certifying' new games, and that nothing could be an official
> role playing game (like Magic) until WotC approved it!

I'd laugh if that wasn't so sad.  "Never understimate the power of human 
ignorance."


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:21:55 -0600
Subject: Painting Miniatures

        This thread inspired me to dig up the old painting hints that used
to be on my web site and repost them, with the new stuff added, of course!
If you missed those suggestions, check them out under Artwork.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:19:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Random Thoughts

On 27 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> In Toronto, Mike Cheney at Sci-Fi World gives away single figures at the
> painting workshops he runs.  Always struck me as being an excellent idea:
> give a customer a figure, teach him/her how to paint it so it looks nice, and
> they'll be back for more figures (and paints and brushes).


Perfect example.  The investment is probably 50 cents plus some of the 
owner's time.  And the return on that investment could be anywhere from 
20 bucks a month to . . . as much as I'm embarrassed to say I spend on my 
hobbies. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:40:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> I can see it now... two fleets converging with angry slogans and nasty
> artwork adorning the outsides of their vessels... faxing each other photos
> of their ships in an attempt to intimidate the other side  :-)

The above made both Carole and I laugh out loud. :)   

I can see it now . . . 

Fax Officer Stibley:  "Captain!  Look at this!  Look at what vulgarities 
they've written on the side of their ships!"

Captain:  "Mr. Stibley, you know what to do."

Stibley:  [Salutes smartly] "Yes, Sir!  When I get done faxing what the 
boys over in the newly christianed destroyer 'Eat Psionic Death, Impies!' 
have drawn on the of their ship, they'll be sorry they ever started a war 
with us!"

Hmmmm.  Perhaps the most popular positition in the Navy for Yuppie 
characters is the Fax officer. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:47:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Gamer's Paradise

Well, I've gotten /one/ store to carry T4....on a trial basis anyway.

I'd mentioned last week that I asked the manager of the local Gamer's 
Paradise to order a copy of T4 for me.  After talking it up to him, he 
decided to order a few extras for the store.

They came in today....two whole copies.  It seems his distributor didn't 
have enough to fill his order. :(

Still, I dropped off some copies of the errata sheet from IG's web site 
(with the copyrights, trademarks, and source acknowledged, and a mention 
that it cannot be sold), and told him having those might be a nice 
service to offer his customers.

He said he will try Traveller at his location, and if it sells well 
(assuming he is able to get more in), he will tell the other 7 Gamers 
Paradise locations about the game.

Here's hoping . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:06:15 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Availability & first impressions

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 21:37:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: T4 availability
>
>On 08/25/96 at 04:11 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>
>>        If you're still tracking,
>
>Not officially or anything, but I'm keeping an eye out.
>
>>I went to two stores in CSprings today.  Heroes & Dragons informed
>>me that there was no more Traveller, that GDW went under.  After I
>>corrected them, they explained their distributor hadn't told them
>>anything.  When their distributor tells them about it, they'll think
>>about carrying it.
>
>> The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
>>and sold them already.
>
>It seems to be doing much better in the west than anywhere
>else..distribution wise, but that could be a mis-preception based on who'd
>reported that they'll gotten it.  Paul reported T4 in southern Mississippi
>yesterday, but I haven't seen it and I'm about 100 miles east of him.  I've
>got 2 stores that say they've got it on order, but they are still talking
>"end of month."  That's getting pretty close now. <g>
>
>Eris
>- --
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>- -----------------------------------------------------------


        FWIW, it was available in Montreal at Valet d'Coeur as of Monday at
3:00 PM.  TML regular Ross Coburn did me a major favour and picked up a
copy for me, dropping it off at my place within two hours of it having hit
the shelf (many thanks, dude).  As a complete Traveller Newbie (previous
exposure was the TML and the MT SOM) whose previous RPG experience consists
of getting thoroughly disgusted with AD&D in High School and playing a lot
of Vampire the Masquerade, my impressions are as follows:

Art: Some of the Foss stuff is amazing.  The B&W stuff was so-so to blah.
I didn't like the starship & equipment drawings and would have greatly
preferred pseudo-technical side-front-top elevation blueprint-type
illustrations.  A lot of the illustrations just didn't look terribly "Far
Future", especially the ones involving that Crocodile Dundee lookalike.

Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for text is
against my religion.  OTOH, the various topic headings are easy to spot and
separate just by skimming...

Content: Did a goodish job of covering what I understand to be the basics.
As for systems, I lack the experience to comment.

        All in all I'm not disappointed after having skimmed through it
twice.  I thought that the MT SOM looked prettier, at least in terms of B&W
art and layout, and I think that the skill list is military-heavy, but
other than that I don't regret buying it and can't wait until I can use it.
Second session of our campaign is Monday next, so I'll be better able to
judge then

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Stephen Refeld <refeld@powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:13:29 GMT
Subject: TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr

A few questions reguarding TNE Vacc Suits, Combat Armour and Battle Dress
Can battle dress with life support be used in a vacume (space)?
How do you design Vacc suits in TNE?
To what minimum pressures are Hostile Env Suits and combat armour useable?
Can a Vacume belt (TNEp337) be used to augmet these?
The various rules RCES, FFS, and TNE are not clear on these points.

My Traveller page is now up, but still under construction
www.powerup.com.au/~refeld/travindx.htm

Thanks
Steve.


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:25:59 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr

Stephen Refeld wrote:
> 
>A few questions reguarding TNE Vacc Suits, Combat Armour and Battle 
>Dress Can battle dress with life support be used in a vacume (space)?

Yes, in RCEG you have options for Vacuum capable Battledress.  It even 
includes it's duration.

>How do you design Vacc suits in TNE?

I don't think there's anything specific.  Look in FF&S.

>To what minimum pressures are Hostile Env Suits and combat armour 
>useable?

HEV can be used in a vacuum, combat armor, depends greatly upon the type. 
 I wouldn't want to wear chain mail in a vaccum, a Combat 
Environmental Suit I would.

> Can a Vacume belt (TNEp337) be used to augmet these?

I'd never noticed the Vac belt.  Don't know...

> The various rules RCES, FFS, and TNE are not clear on these points.


Ya, and they never will be either...  I guess that means we can look at 
old Trav stuff and make up our own rules.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:29:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Hardcovers: when?

I spoke to Ken Whitman of Imperium Games today, and he said that they 
expect the hardcovers to arrive in time to get them in the mail to us 
by the end of next week (allowing time for Marc to sign them).  After 
that, it'll be up to the postal service as to how much longer we have to 
wait. 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:55:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG's new Aslan picture

Anybody checked out the "Aslan warrior" sketch in the TNS section of IG's
webspace?  If you still love the old Keith drawings (or anatomical/skeletal
studies, yet, in Alien Module 1!), then don't.  He kind of looks like a
reject makeup study from *Island of Dr. Moreau* done up with glare-lines
(black makeup on cheek bones) and a Einstein-bad-hair-day do.  That is to
say that, like the weapons pictures (which I haven't seen yet: oh pray for
the hardback printers!) it leans solidly and disturbingly towards the
space opera end of the spectrum, rather than the more-or-less scientific
realism CT was heralded for.

If anyone from IG is reading this list, I'd love to know exactly what
niche T4 is aimed for: West End's *Star Wars* (in second edition now,
yet!) would seem to have the Space Opera genre sewn up, though with
Shatterzone in fairly hot pursuit.  *Warhammer 40K*, *Renegade Legion*,
*Mekton Z*, etc. have the spiky-bits killer-mech hand-waving it's-cool
angle well-covered.  Holistic Design's new *Fading Suns* might even lure
a few of the *Vampire* crowd into SFRPG's.  But did *2300AD* spook
everyone away from the hard-science genre?  (I note that even SJG, of
the GURPS sourcebook for everyone, have largely neglected Space settings,
aside from the low-high-tech *Terradyne* and the even-more-niche
*Lensman*).  What sort of person is IG gambling on as a first-time buyer
of their product over any other company's?  We have too little advertising
copy (or product, as of yet) to tell.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:32:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fixing T4

Hi,

I hate to write in my books, so I came up with an alternate plan for 
making the errata corections to T4.   I think perhaps others might 
find my method to be of use.

I grabbed the errata from IG's web site, then imported the stuff into 
my word processor.  I then pulled up one of the Avery label formats (in 
this case, all I had at hand were the Diskette labels, but any large 
labels will do) and put the Jump Drive Potential Table on one label, the 
Rank/Rolls table on another, and the corrected ranges for the Sandcasters 
Table on a third.  I formatted them to be as close to the T4 type font as 
possible, then printed them out.  

It took a little cutting, but I got them to fit into the T4 book pretty 
well. I put the Benefits Rolls table next to the Draft Table on page 26.  
The Jump Drive Potential Table fits well on the bottom of page 104, which 
is the page just before the QSDS tables start.  Of course, the revised 
Sandcasters Table went right over the one on page 120.

This gives me a copy of T4 that is without serious error.  More 
importantly, it is a copy of T4 I can refer to without having the errata 
sheet nearby.

I hope you're able to find this of use.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:32:08 +1200
Subject: Traveller Ship Colours

Hi all,

Just want to add my two cents to this thread. This may be off topic, but it
could be standard practice for ships to be painted some colour in
Traveller. In space, thousands of micro-meteorites pound into the ships
hull every miniute creating some damage to the hull. The paint maybe a way
of maintaining the "good looks" of the ship by absorbing some of the
impact, something like ablative armour? Sure, this would soon become
patchy, but when it comes to the annual refit, the hull can be repaired,
and paint scheme redone, or a new one put on. I realise I've gone from
minitures to the real this but if you can justify it in a "real" world
scale, then its easy to apply to the smaller scale.

Just some thoughts...





------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 27 Aug 96 23:59:39 EDT
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #

For those of you still wibbling on about "how do I get a .5D result", here's
Unca Fozzie's magic trick for solving the problem. Make yer own d3.

1. Get a normal D (d6), a pocket knife or small drill, and some paint - the same
colour as the dice and the spots.

2. Fill in some dots, viz:

    On the 4, two dots opposite each other, making a 2.

    On the 5, two dots opposite each other, making a 3.

    On the 6, all of 'em. Then make a small dint in the middle of that face, and
dot some "dot colour" paint into the dint.

That's it. Yeah, I know, the dots don't follow the strict rules of sides adding
up. But I've been using two of these for That Other Game for about ten years now
and they work fine, fine, fine.

HWF


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:20:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Fixing T4

At 10:32 pm 8/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I hate to write in my books, so I came up with an alternate plan for 
>making the errata corections to T4.   I think perhaps others might 
>find my method to be of use.
>
>I grabbed the errata from IG's web site, then imported the stuff into 
>my word processor.  I then pulled up one of the Avery label formats (in 
>this case, all I had at hand were the Diskette labels, but any large 
>labels will do) and put the Jump Drive Potential Table on one label, the 
>Rank/Rolls table on another, and the corrected ranges for the Sandcasters 
>Table on a third.  I formatted them to be as close to the T4 type font as 
>possible, then printed them out.  
>
>It took a little cutting, but I got them to fit into the T4 book pretty 
>well. I put the Benefits Rolls table next to the Draft Table on page 26.  
>The Jump Drive Potential Table fits well on the bottom of page 104, which 
>is the page just before the QSDS tables start.  Of course, the revised 
>Sandcasters Table went right over the one on page 120.

        I did something similar with the FF&S errata and upgrade ... printed
them out, cut each correction out separately, and then taped one side on the
appropriate place. That way, I can still flip up the correction to see
what's under it (especially if the correction is bigger than the original text).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:20:36 -0600
Subject: Re: TNE: Vacc Suits & ArmoUr

At 02:13 am 8/28/96 GMT, you wrote:
>
>A few questions reguarding TNE Vacc Suits, Combat Armour and Battle Dress
>Can battle dress with life support be used in a vacume (space)?

        Combat Armor and battle dress are sealed, so yes, they can be used
in space. LS is built into battle dress (short-duration).

>How do you design Vacc suits in TNE?

        You can't, really. There's not much variation, so you just pick them
out of the equipment list. The only thing that would be worth even thinking
about, IMO, would be the life support packs.

>To what minimum pressures are Hostile Env Suits and combat armour useable?

        Hostile Environment Suits _are_ vacc suits, built to withstand more
hostile environments (corrosive atmospheres, etc.), so they can be used down
to zero pressure.

        Combat _armor_ is fully sealed, so it is good down to zero pressure.
A combat _environment suit_ is not.

>Can a Vacume belt (TNEp337) be used to augmet these?

        Not needed. A vacuum belt is intended to provide additional support
for your body when wearing a body pressure suit below 0.43 atm (Thin). The
suit itself is sealed, which a combat environment suit isn't. Battle dress,
hostile environment suits and combat armor have this support built in.

>The various rules RCES, FFS, and TNE are not clear on these points.

        Some of it was apparently assumed from previous versions of Traveller.

>My Traveller page is now up, but still under construction
>www.powerup.com.au/~refeld/travindx.htm

        Welcome to the club! Looks nice -- I take it you're a TNE fan.
Thanks for the link. BTW, if you want to "borrow" some of the formats for
weapons, ships, etc. from my site, go right ahead.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:25:17 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #

On 27 Aug 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:

> For those of you still wibbling on about "how do I get a .5D result", here's
> Unca Fozzie's magic trick for solving the problem. Make yer own d3.
> 
> 1. Get a normal D (d6), a pocket knife or small drill, and some paint - the same
> colour as the dice and the spots.
> 
> 2. Fill in some dots, viz:
> 
>     On the 4, two dots opposite each other, making a 2.
> 
>     On the 5, two dots opposite each other, making a 3.
> 
>     On the 6, all of 'em. Then make a small dint in the middle of that face, and
> dot some "dot colour" paint into the dint.
> 

Or order some of the blank D6's that are available form one of the 
companies (i recall Zocchi or Flying Buffaloe, I'll check into it 
tomorrow) and stencil in 2-1's, 2-2's, 2-3's.  Then put on some clear 
finish (the same stuff you use on miniatures).  Presto, D3's


Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: T4 availability

Games of Berkeley still doesn't have T4, but they said today that were
expecting it soon.  They said, "sometimes the West Coast is the last to
receive things," or words to that effect.

While I was there, I saw a game called something like "The Merchant Marine
Game."  It's apparently a board game in which the players try to become
international shipping magnates.  It was sealed in its attractive, plain
blue box, so I couldn't review the rules.  Traveller hook? what Traveller hook?

- --Glenn


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #353
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 28 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 354

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #
         3. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         4. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         5. THE FIRST LICENSED MILIEU 0 TRAVELLER PRODUCT?
         6. Re: Cold Fusion [2]
         7. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
         8. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         9. Re: Cold Fusion
        10. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        11. Re: Cold Fusion
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
        13. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        14. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        15. RSSC: Jamming
        16. RSSC: avoid detection
        17. RSSC: sandcaster
        18. Laser Error??
        19. Re: IG's new Aslan sketch

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:52:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:00:58 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 10:14 pm 8/27/96 GMT, you wrote:

> >You just can't get the visually pleasing detail you want when using flat
> >("iron ball") black paint on a small miniature (who wants to squint?).
> >Sure, the F117A looks aggressive... but only in the daytime.  Look at it at
> >night and the novelty of its visual stealth technology quickly becomes
> >boring to the eye.
> 
>         Not boring at all. Invisible. There've been reports of people
> winding up with head and face injuries from walking into it because they
> just couldn't see it clearly or judge distance.

Boring to the EYE, but not the BRAIN  :-)

True, the non-reflective nature of the skin of the F117A is remarkable and
mind boggling, but it doesn't "catch the eye".  If you want realism, go for
black... if you want a miniature that draws attention to it and looks
attractive to the eye, there are better colours to choose from.  This is
the main selling feature of anything from Games Workshop... brightly
coloured miniatures with rediculous banners for those slogans I mentioned.

When you spend a few hours finishing & painting your miniatures, you want
something that actually looks like you spent "a few hours finishing &
painting them"... and these means lots of detail.  It is just hard getting
a black miniature to look detailed due to the fact that they are so small
to begin with.  Extra colours (used tastefully, of course) add to that
detail.

When I play table-top, I try to insist on painted miniatures (that is,
after all, what miniature gaming is all about... at least as much detail as
a coloured cardboard counter would be if those were used instead).  An
unpainted miniature can be just as difficult to identify (as to its type)
as a flat black miniature from across the table and this can lead to all
sorts of wasted time moving around the gaming table to see exactly *what*
your opponent is fielding.

Here's my advice.  When painting a miniature that is supposed to be black,
use dark grey instead and save the black for detailing.  That way, at least
the black detailing will stand out (for those few areas that absolutely
*must* be painted black).


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:52:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:25:17 -0600 (MDT), P. ENGEBOS wrote:

> On 27 Aug 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:
> 
> > For those of you still wibbling on about "how do I get a .5D result", here's
> > Unca Fozzie's magic trick for solving the problem. Make yer own d3.
> > 
> > 1. Get a normal D (d6), a pocket knife or small drill, and some paint - the same
> > colour as the dice and the spots.
> > 
> > 2. Fill in some dots, viz:
> > 
> >     On the 4, two dots opposite each other, making a 2.
> > 
> >     On the 5, two dots opposite each other, making a 3.
> > 
> >     On the 6, all of 'em. Then make a small dint in the middle of that face, and
> > dot some "dot colour" paint into the dint.
> > 
> 
> Or order some of the blank D6's that are available form one of the 
> companies (i recall Zocchi or Flying Buffaloe, I'll check into it 
> tomorrow) and stencil in 2-1's, 2-2's, 2-3's.  Then put on some clear 
> finish (the same stuff you use on miniatures).  Presto, D3's

Or take a Toblerone, mark all three long sides, and pitch it across the
table underhanded.  It's a little biased, though  :-)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:52:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:30:30 -0700 (PDT), Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> The naked eye isn't necessarily the standard for visual range.  Ships will
> certainly have visual sensors and image processing capabilities, and may
> well use lenses to enhance the capabilities of the naked eye (or maybe I
> just like the thought of naval officers on the bridge looking through
> binoculars).

Visual sensors will only be useful under *powerful* zoom, and this means a
*very* narrow field of vision.  To acquire a visual lock on a ship at these
distances would either be pure luck or require the use of other sensors to
acquire the target first (meaning that the ship already has a better way of
tracking the target than "visually").

Personally, I like the idea of painting "This Optical Sensor Out of Order"
in big letters on the side of a ship.  Maybe the enemy will think it's a
sensor glitch and fire at somebody else.  Or maybe really cool (or naughty)
artwork so that the enemy becomes mesmurized and pauses....  :-)

> What color should you paint the 0.1c rock?

I believe it should be painted slightly blue due to the blue-shift of an
object moving towards you (red if moving away)  :-)



------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:05:53 +1000
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

Joe. 

You cold have an attack of the Foss and use whatever colors you want. 
After all , grey is boring, and looking at Chris Foss' art, he thinks so too.




>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:33:51 +0100
Subject: THE FIRST LICENSED MILIEU 0 TRAVELLER PRODUCT?

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> in TML351, responded to Rich
ostorero: >> What's this about liscensed products coming out soon? I hope IG
and Marc
>> adopt GDW's late-70s CT licensing strategy (liscense small startups to make
>> goodies that grap store shelf-space and increase exposure . . . ) to T4. 

>That was just speculation on my part.  I don't know of anyone who 
>actually has products for T4 in the works (except for the Silent Death T4 
>Space Battles that was mentioned here by Dave Golden).

HUGE SELF PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN FOLLOWS
************************************

"The Long Way Home" is a 96 page campaign adventure containing 8 superb
scenarios with full colour cover, deck plans for a new design of Scout Ship,
details of over 50 worlds (adventure worlds include system maps, world maps,
etc.), maps for all the major adventure settings, and a few pictures
squeezed in...

It's due to be published by BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) in about
2 days time for release at Euro GEN CON. It will also be published by Sword
of the Knight in the US in the very near future.

Hang on to your hats - the first licensed Milieu 0 adventure...

==============
...IS HERE!!!!
==============

Distribution should be through normal channels in the US, and through mail
order and at BITS events in the UK, i.e. we hope to be selling copies at
Euro GEN CON in a few days time.

I will send more details (e.g. ordering info) to the list as they become
available.

This is just the first in a line of products brought to you by the CORE(tm)
Traveller products team.

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion [2]

I checked the figures for Cold Fusion, using the numbers in FF&S and made
an estimate of the power consumption of the various grav vehicles, and
discovered a crucial error.  If the value for 2 Liters/hour per megawatt
is kept then the fuel tank capacities of all of the grav vehicles should
be multiplied by 10.  If IG intended to reduce the fuel use of cold fusion
plants by a factor of 10 then cold fusion starts getting very competitive
with "hot" for use in starships. 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:15:54 PST
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

In mail you write:

>> Heck, some of the folks I hang out with want to buy the current
>> "equivalent" of a crunch gun and rag it along to our "plinking" trips.
>> Given that we already have everything from .177 pellet rifles up to SKS
>> "assualt rifles",  plus various shotguns and pistols it won't really be
>> noticed much. :-)
>> 
>> Seriously, some of the bolt action .50 cal rifles being sold right now
>> would seriously inconvenience high tech troops. 
>
> I was at the range once... maybe 30 people sighting in hunting
> rifles... bang.  bang, bang.  bang, bang, bang, BOOOOOM!  everyone
> looks right.  The last guy on the right had a bolt action .50 cal.
> Wow.  He shoots it in competition at absurdly long ranges (1000+
> yards).  Those rounds went *deep* into the berm.

We've discussed the problems of trying to hunt with one of them
("Honest officer, it's a hunting rifle!" :-). With normal "ball" ammo,
they'll punch a hole clear through just about any land animal, doing
minimal damage. But the thought of a .50 cal hollowpoint round is a bit
scary. (especially when someone get's this thoughtful look and starts
muttering things like "fill with C4, add a recessed primer as a
detonator, yeah!") 

They do tend to get noticed. But I'm told that a friend of a friend
gets *really* noticed when he digs out his 4 pounder cannon!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:25:48 PST
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

In mail you write:

> I think that we came to the following (admittedly pedestrian) conclusions:
> Ships engaging in space combat would ordinarily be matte black, possibly
> with a few white specks.  Ships involved in military or covert operations on
> or near planetary surfaces would be camouflaged appropriately to the planet.
> Merchant and civilian ships could be painted in any color scheme, depending
> primarily on the owner's whim or corporate policy, as applicable.  That does
> leave it wide open.


Actually, most ships that don't have a *good* reason to be painted some
other way will be a "light" color overall, with the radiator panels
being black. This is due to heat loading considerations. Sunlight at 1
AU is several kW/m^2 of heat. Since ships already have problems getting
rid of heat, you paint them a color that tends not to absorb it. 

Likewise, you paint the radiators as black as you can, as that helps
radiate heat. 

You want all the radiators placed so that the ship is *easily* oriented
with them facing *away* from the sun. If you ever need to absorb heat,
just orient the ship with them towards the sun.

And of course, if you get close, you'll see details like emergency
access hatches picked out in distinctive colors, and various labels and
warnings ("Not a Step", "Warning: cryogenic temps likely", etc). On
miniatures, I'd try to suggest such by placing *very* fine broken lines
in appropriate areas (the idea is that the "pieces" of the line are
individual words).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:11:15 PST
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

In mail you write:

>         But if you have a deep-space thrust agency that requires power, it
> won't care too much whether it gets that power from "hot fusion" or "cold
> fusion" unless it's something like HEPlaR. At TL11, you get thruster plates.
> So if you can build big ships with hot fusion, you can build little ships
> with cold fusion. The little guys will suck down fuel much faster, and hence
> have a more limited endurance. But who wants to be stuck in a fighter for a
> whole year (standard endurance for "hot fusion").
>
>         So the TL11 guys _can_ build fighters and other small craft. Which
> was the whole idea fusion+ was supposed to prevent -- prior to TL12 nobody
> was supposed to be able to build anything smaller than about 100Td and still
> have room in it for anything but the powerplant.

Remember that manuevering in space tends to require many *hours* of
fuel. "Car" type vehicles only require a few at most. Add in the
requirements for life support, acceleration compensation, and weapons,
and you may discover that either you have a "fighter" with only a
couple turns of endurance, or that you can't get the acceleration you
want because of all the fuel required.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:19:11 PST
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

In mail you write:

> se, but interesting camoflage patterns would be really neat.  First of all, 
> it wouldn't have to just be plain black.  Nebulae are huge, colorful objects 
> in space that cover entire clusters of stars within their boundaries.  Any 
> ship that frequents a nebula could be quite colorful.  Any ship that often 
> visits planetoid belts or gas giants could be camo-ed 
> appropriately as well.  Any ship that wants to loudly proclaim its 
> neutrality and/or allegance should be clearly marked.

Hate to tell you this, but those brightly colored nebula you see in the
books are in the same league as the "neon color" pictures of Jupiter.
That is, the color has been *very* enhanced. The sort of nebula you see
in Star Trek just plain doesn't exist. 

Real nebulas are a harder vacuum than you'll find in a light bulb. The
colors are the result of *long* exposures, and the results are the
summing of all the light generated by the gases over a path *light
years* long.

Sitting in the middle of a "dense" and "bright" nebula, you'd notice
that you had trouble seeing things more than a few *thousand* AU off,
due to the slight fuzziness caused by the gases. It'd take special
instruments to detect the glow. 

Asteroid and planetoid belts aren't like on TV or in the movies either.
Remember, we've sent at least 5 or six probes thru the asteriod belt,
and we had to aim them carefully to get them close enough to take a
picture of an asteroid. An asteriod may be miles across, but it's a
*lot* of thousands of niles from the next one. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:49:24 PST
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

In mail you write:

>         Well, the original intent was that NOBODY have decent small craft
> prior to TL12. That was to provide the "hook" that gave the nascent Imperium
> a boost. Unfortunately, they didn't think things out well enough -- if you
> can have a 15G speeder, you can certainly have a 15G fighter.

Except *nobody* should have a "15G speeder". 

Folks are confusing areodynamic *manuevering* acceleration with
straight-line acceleration. 

In a fluid medium like air, a craft capable of less than *2* gees
sustained acceleration can use the reaction between airfoils and the
fluid to make turns that impose 15 gees on passengers. But that's a
quite different situation than being able to accelerate at 15 gees.
Even in bursts.

You rate an atmospheric craft by thrust, and figure its thrust to
weight ratio, and figure the drag coefficient. And the situation is
much the same for a land or water vehicle. 

Drag sets a very definite speed limit, and acceleration drops off
*rapidly* as velocity increases. 

To look at it another way, I don't care *how* much power you have,
exceeding mach one in the city limits *is* going to get your license
pulled. Especially near the ground.

Most folks don't realize it, but close up the shock cones that
constitute "sonic booms" are *incredibly* damaging. The US Air Force
Academy in Colorado had to delay opening some buildings when they
started up because *one* pilot in a T-34 trainer had done a low level
supersonic pass over the campus. It didn't just break windows. It did
several million dollars worth of *structural damage* to the buildings
(we are talking about things like warping steel girders!)

So Junior is not going to be going supersonic except out in the sticks.
And even there, he's liable to get ticketed if he does it to close to
anything that can be damaged. 

Thus, the market for supersonic personal vehicles will be limited to
the folks who operate them out of "airport" type facilities. 

BTW, for an interesting take on the way a cultural much like America
might go if very high speed vehicles *were* common, try to track down
the stories Rick Raphael wrote about the Transcontinental Thruway
Police back in the 60's. They appeared in Analog (even got the cover a
couple of times) and were collected in a book titled "Code Three" (I've
seen exactly *two* copies. One belonged to a friend who bought it new.
The other took a book hunter a couple of years to track down for me.

Anyway, we have "cars" shift to ground effect at high speeds and cruise
at 500 mph... If nothing else, it'll give you some ideas on how to
handle a society that is a logical outgrowth of a trend, but quite
different from what the players might expect.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:58:23 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

>Not necessarily.  If the speeder requires a planetary mass nearby...
>Hmm, what about saying gs as stated are for sea-level use on a 1 g
>world.  Use it on the moon, and the accel. drops to 1/6, on mars,
>1/3, etc..  The 15g fighter would do
>15*acceleration_of_gravity_at_this_altitude.  By the time it gets to
>orbit, it'll be doing "normal" g loads.  The real problem is
>g-compensation.  That can't be broken regardless.

Very good. Get rid of grav thrust drops of to 10% after a few dims and use
gravthrust equals design gravthrust times local gravity. With this a 100
ton mass vehicle will always need 100 ton gravthrust or more to
float/levitate, no matter the local grav. I've used this in my campaign for
close to 5 years and it makes for interesting spacefights when gravthrusted
lowtech fighters zip close to planet surfaces to get extra thrust. Also,
hitech gravthruster missiles are really dangerous because they're pretty
hard to see without thrustflames et c.



/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Andrew Whincup <9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:09:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

Yep I can just see it now. However I can't see the imperial navy 
doing it somehow. Hell Imagine their stony faces when the comms come 
up  with a picture of the enemy crew pulling a mooney just for their 
benefit. 

Just a thought.....
Andrew_whincup<9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: Andrew Whincup <9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:37:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

I get the feeling from this thread that the navy is going to start 
employing art school graduates to do the paint jobs on their ships.
You know a kind of traveller cistine chapel. Or is that a little OTT

Just to keep y'all thinking

Andrew
Andrew_whincup<9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:53:11 -0400
Subject: RSSC: Jamming

>From the definition of the skill 'Communications'

  "Communications skill also denotes a character's ability to jam airwaves..."

Therefore...

- -----------

        4.1.3 If the target is jamming, then there is an opposing
        task roll to see which succeeds. Note that the Sensor
        Rating depends on whether active or passive sensors are being
        used.  Weapons lock must be re-established every round that
        the target is jamming.

            (Sensor + Sensor_Rating + 1d6) vs 
            (Communications + Jam_Rating + 1d6)

- -----------

Agree?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:53:08 -0400
Subject: RSSC: avoid detection

In T4, ships have Electromagnetic Masking (p90) which helps a ship avoid
detection.  But nowhere does it give the EM rating for the ship.  It does
however give a rating active sensors, passive sensors, and jamming.  So are
we to assume that the jamming rating of a ship includes it's EM rating?  I
think I'm going to use that until we get some clarification.  Therefore...

- -------

    1.2 To detect another ship, complete detection task based on
    range as noted in Figure One.  Note that the Electromagnetic Masking
rating of the ship is the same as the Jamming rating.

        Detect Task + (Sensor + Sensor_Rating - Jamming_Rating)
        
                    Figure One - Detect Another Ship

        Range Name      Weapons Bearing         Detect Task   Dice
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        Out of Range    Out of range            Formidable      3d
        Extreme         Band 4 weapons only     Difficult     2.5d
        Long            3 & 4 band weapons      Average         2d
        Effective       2 - 4 band weapons      Easy          auto
        Short           1 - 4 band weapons      Easy          auto
        Contact         Boarding, no weapons    Easy          auto

- -------

Make sense?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:53:18 -0400
Subject: RSSC: sandcaster

So, here's where we left off.  We've resolved how to attack with lasers, so
now it's time to defend with sandcasters.

- --------

            4.2.1.2 Defensive Weapon Resolution - If a defending ship
            is using sandcasters to defend against laser attacks,
            they must make a Sandcaster Task roll.  Sandcaster Task +
            (Gunnery + ?? - ??)
            
                   ?? not based on range, is it ??

- --------

So upon what criteria will we make the sandcaster roll?  Not range, is it?
You're not shooting sand too much farther away then Contact range anyway,
are we?  Is sandcaster always an Average (2d) roll?

Gunnery is the applicable skill in T4, but what are the applicable
modifiers?  Or are any modifiers really necessary?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:53:16 -0400
Subject: Laser Error??

Check out the Standard Civilian Laser Batteries chart on page 106.  

TL USP
11 1000 or 2000
12 1000 or 2000
13 1100 or 2200
14 1000 or 2000
15 1111 or 2222

Hmmm.  Anybody else see a problem here?  TL 14 weapons are less effective
than Tl 13 weapons.  Maybe it should read like this:

14 1110 or 2220

Anybody want to send an email to IG and see if this is right?

And the number of weapons in all of these batteries is 1.  Does that imply
that in order to have multiple lasers in a battery, you MUST purchase
Military Batteries?

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:00:48 +0100
Subject: Re: IG's new Aslan sketch

I was horrified by the new sketch of the 'Aslan Warrior' on IG's webpage -
It looks like a human with make-up on. They should get W.H. Keith or Rob
Caswell to illustrate the Aslan - or at least give the artists they 
hire a lend of the Aslan Aliens book and Solomani and Aslan.

All I can say to the sketch is 'NO!'

Eamon.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #354
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 28 August 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 355

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RSSC: laser attack
         2. Re: Re: Random Thoughts
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
         4. Re: IG's new Aslan sketch
         5. FRGGS, Painting
         6. Starship Colours
         7. Re: IG's new Aslan picture
         8. Re: Cold Fusion [2]
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
        10. Re: RSSC: avoid detection
        11. Re: Cold Fusion
        12. Clarification on "RSSC"
        13. Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons
        14. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        15. Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        16. Re: Aslan Sketch.
        17. RE: Hardcovers: when?
        18. RE: T4 Availability & first impressions
        19. Got T4!
        20. Re: T4 Availability & first impressions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:53:13 -0400
Subject: RSSC: laser attack

Here's what I have for Laser attack:

- ---------

        4.2.1 Laser Attack vs Sandcaster Defense  
        
            4.2.1.1 Weapon To Hit Resolution - In order to hit a
            target with laser weapons, the attacking ship must make a
            Laser Task roll based on range as noted in Figure Three.
            
                Laser Task + (Gunnery + Fire_Control - Evasion_s/w)
 
                  Figure Three - Laser Attack
                    
                Range         Laser Task     Dice
                ---------------------------------      
                Extreme       Staggering     3.5d                   
                Long          Formidable       3d                   
                Effective     Difficult      2.5d                    
                Short         Average          2d    

- ---------------

It's interesting to note that until you reach TL 15, no Standard Civilian
Laser Batteries have a damage rating for Long or Extreme range.  The
Standard Military Laser Batteries start at TL 11.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Aug 1996 14:14:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Random Thoughts

>If such did occur. GW would find themselves facing an anti-trust suit
>rather quickly. You aren't allowed to "lock" the market that way. 

Oh?  I'm certain the people in competition with Microsoft will be happy to
hear this.

It may be technically illegal, but if you can drive your competition out of
business (eg. NCR) or if the increased profits are more than the fine (eg.
Microsoft) then it makes "sound business sense" to do it.

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:56:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

Anders Backman wrote:
 
>Very good. Get rid of grav thrust drops of to 10% after a few dims and 
>use gravthrust equals design gravthrust times local gravity. With this a 
>100 ton mass vehicle will always need 100 ton gravthrust or more to
>float/levitate, no matter the local grav. I've used this in my campaign 
>for close to 5 years and it makes for interesting spacefights when 
>gravthrusted lowtech fighters zip close to planet surfaces to get extra 
>thrust. Also, hitech gravthruster missiles are really dangerous because 
>they're pretty hard to see without thrustflames et c.

Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few 
questions reguarding their use.

1)  In order to funtion corretly they need a gravity well of some kind to 
"push off" of, Right?

2)  The weaker the gravity well, ie the further out in a system you are, 
the less effective these thrusters are, correct?

3)  What's the theoretical cut off point for Grav-Plates?  ie.  Where do 
they crap out?  100 diameters?  1000 diameters?  And I'm assuming we're 
talking planetary diameters here not stellar diameteres.

4)  If a ship some how wound up in an asteroid field, very small bodies 
of rock, eg. the Kininur, how would a rescue team get in?  You'd think 
all these very small gravity feilds would play hell upon the Grav-plates 
mechanisms.

5)  Does the momentum you've accumulated using grav thrusters stick with 
you when the thrusters crap out?  ie. If you're travelling at 100 kps (I 
always do math with round numbers) heading away from a planet, you pass 
point "y" at which the Grav-Plates ceace to function correctly, do you 
maintatain your current vector you do you just sort of slow down and 
stop?

6)  If a ship miss-jumps into deep space, you're stuck right?  Assuming 
you don't have the fuel to get back into J-Space, you're doomed to spend 
an eternity floating about the void without any propulsion to at least 
point you in the right direction.

Thanks
Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:22:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: IG's new Aslan sketch

I agree. It not like any other picture we have seen of Aslan Warriors. It 
not what I pictured.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:40:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: FRGGS, Painting

Dear Folks -

1.	FIRST REALLY GOOD GAME STORE

_Mind Games_, Sydney, NSW, Australia.

2.	PAINTING

Joe, I use the chrome from the _Starship Operator's Manual_, that the 
ship has a "chameleon circuit". Then it's easy to justify bright colour 
schemes, because you say, "When you get into combat, you simply switch to 
black". Paint one miniature black and the other in your colur scheme of 
choice (didn't you buy up all of RAFM's stock?? No wonder I can't get 
any!?! ;-).

Think of it as the difference between the brightly-painted "sales model" 
F-16 (White, red, etc) vs the dull grey version with low-res national 
markings, and you'll get the drift.

Camo is to disguise ships _on the ground_ (although black, in space, _is_ 
camo). Again, another use for the chameleon circuit. No wonder hulls cost 
so much!

Why is this topic "prone to flames"? It should just be about "here's a 
good technique to use", not "you must paint ALL Imp Marine units in maroon".

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:07:45 -0300
Subject: Starship Colours

If you want to take a page from the real world, you might take a look at
modern warships (living in a port, I do so regularly).  Basicly, they are
gray.  But if you look again, there are all sorts of interesting details of
colour.  Black antennae, white phalanxes, small splashes of other shades.
My experience with miniature painting suggests that those small details are
essential to a sense of "completeness"

Just a thought.

Also, you might get some good effects by mixing flat black with gloss details.

Civilian ships, of course, are floating advertisements: great big logos,
very attractive colours.  Coast guard goes for high visibility.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:34:31 -0400
Subject: Re: IG's new Aslan picture

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett writes:

>Anybody checked out the "Aslan warrior" sketch in the TNS section of
>IG's webspace?

   I was struck by how much it resembled a Klingon warrior with a
perpendicular groove in its upper lip (presumably to make it more ``cat``
like.  Otherwise, I wasn't particularly impressed one way or the other.
To be certain, though, it is a different rendering than the previous
versions.

Regards,

Harold




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:36:10 -0600
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion [2]

At 02:37 am 8/28/96 -0700, "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I checked the figures for Cold Fusion, using the numbers in FF&S and made
>an estimate of the power consumption of the various grav vehicles, and
>discovered a crucial error.  If the value for 2 Liters/hour per megawatt
>is kept then the fuel tank capacities of all of the grav vehicles should
>be multiplied by 10.  If IG intended to reduce the fuel use of cold fusion
>plants by a factor of 10 then cold fusion starts getting very competitive
>with "hot" for use in starships. 

        I don't know if Greg Porter based his cold fusion on the rules in
FF&S, so I don't know if the comparison is valid. Why don't you check with
him: BTRC@aol.com
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:36:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

At 06:56 am 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Anders Backman wrote:
> 
>>Very good. Get rid of grav thrust drops of to 10% after a few dims and 
>>use gravthrust equals design gravthrust times local gravity. With this a 
>>100 ton mass vehicle will always need 100 ton gravthrust or more to
>>float/levitate, no matter the local grav. I've used this in my campaign 
>>for close to 5 years and it makes for interesting spacefights when 
>>gravthrusted lowtech fighters zip close to planet surfaces to get extra 
>>thrust. Also, hitech gravthruster missiles are really dangerous because 
>>they're pretty hard to see without thrustflames et c.
>
>Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few 
>questions reguarding their use.
>
>1)  In order to funtion corretly they need a gravity well of some kind to 
>"push off" of, Right?
>
>2)  The weaker the gravity well, ie the further out in a system you are, 
>the less effective these thrusters are, correct?
>
>3)  What's the theoretical cut off point for Grav-Plates?  ie.  Where do 
>they crap out?  100 diameters?  1000 diameters?  And I'm assuming we're 
>talking planetary diameters here not stellar diameteres.
>
>4)  If a ship some how wound up in an asteroid field, very small bodies 
>of rock, eg. the Kininur, how would a rescue team get in?  You'd think 
>all these very small gravity feilds would play hell upon the Grav-plates 
>mechanisms.
>
>5)  Does the momentum you've accumulated using grav thrusters stick with 
>you when the thrusters crap out?  ie. If you're travelling at 100 kps (I 
>always do math with round numbers) heading away from a planet, you pass 
>point "y" at which the Grav-Plates ceace to function correctly, do you 
>maintatain your current vector you do you just sort of slow down and 
>stop?
>
>6)  If a ship miss-jumps into deep space, you're stuck right?  Assuming 
>you don't have the fuel to get back into J-Space, you're doomed to spend 
>an eternity floating about the void without any propulsion to at least 
>point you in the right direction.

        ContraGravity used by grav vehicles is something entirely different
than thrust plates used by spacecraft. ContraGravity depends on the local
gravity, and goes down very quickly. The way we orginally discussed it,
thrust is directly proportional to the local gravity field, with an upper
limit so once you get to about 1.5 or so gravities, the thrust doesn't go up
regardless.

        Thruster plates work out to several thousand AU basically
unaffected, at which point some quantum tetrionic mumble mumble mumble
effect sets in, and thrust drops by a factor of a hundred or so.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:44:12 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC: avoid detection

 
> In T4, ships have Electromagnetic Masking (p90) which helps a ship avoid
> detection.  But nowhere does it give the EM rating for the ship.  It does
> however give a rating active sensors, passive sensors, and jamming.  So are
> we to assume that the jamming rating of a ship includes it's EM rating?  I
> think I'm going to use that until we get some clarification.  Therefore...

Ships either have EMM or they don't.  The +3 or whatever in T4 is
for any ship with EMM.  no DM if they don't have it.  Just like
BL/BR.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:50:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> BTW, for an interesting take on the way a cultural much like America
> might go if very high speed vehicles *were* common, try to track down
> the stories Rick Raphael wrote about the Transcontinental Thruway
> Police back in the 60's. They appeared in Analog (even got the cover a
> couple of times) and were collected in a book titled "Code Three" (I've
> seen exactly *two* copies. One belonged to a friend who bought it new.
> The other took a book hunter a couple of years to track down for me.

   Great book - I've got a copy. (The only one _I've_ seen) ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:36:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Clarification on "RSSC"

I just want to prevent any confusion by pointing out that James Garriss' 
"RSSC" postings do not refer to the system currently being worked out by 
Eris and me over on GDW-Beta.  James emailed us privately to tell us that 
he wanted to go his own direction with a ship combat system, which is 
what he is doing.

I have emailed James privately asking him to forgo the use of the "RSSC" 
acronym to avoid confusion.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:25:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Combat: Laser/Military Weapons

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> We've discussed the problems of trying to hunt with one of them
> ("Honest officer, it's a hunting rifle!" :-). With normal "ball" ammo,
> they'll punch a hole clear through just about any land animal, doing
> minimal damage. But the thought of a .50 cal hollowpoint round is a bit
> scary. (especially when someone get's this thoughtful look and starts
> muttering things like "fill with C4, add a recessed primer as a
> detonator, yeah!")

One word: OUCH. Make it a shaped charge and you have good antiarmor medicine.
> 
> They do tend to get noticed. But I'm told that a friend of a friend
> gets *really* noticed when he digs out his 4 pounder cannon!

A college buddy of mine(and fellow Traveller player) made a 2-pounder cannon out of a 
piece of steel stock that he bored out on a lathe. He fired lead balls the size 
(roughly, it's been almost 20 years since then) of a baseball out of a 24'' barrel 
mounted to a naval-style carriage (small wheels as opposed to the classic "Napoleonic" 
style carriage) with trunnions. 

When charged with 2-3 shot glasses full of black powder, it would could drive that lead 
ball hard enough to wreck the engine of a (junk) car or punch a very big hole in 
someone/thing.

We took this cannon to a range one day, and it _really_ got the instant respect of all 
the camou-cald AR-15/AK totin' crowd (this was before the Ban on "assault weapons"). 
These guys stopped shooting as a pair of college students laid this gun on the junked 
car we were all shooting at and perforated the target like it was a tin can.

We even fired grapeshot out of it at a wooden silhouette target and blew it to 
splinters.

In other words, We had FUN! Good, clean FUN!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> Joe.
>
> You cold have an attack of the Foss and use whatever colors you want.
> After all , grey is boring, and looking at Chris Foss' art, he thinks so too.

Well, I suppose as the TL gets up there, one could create weird
scintillating ships.  For anyone whose read William Gibson's _Count Zero_,
something along the lines of the jump-jet that Turner flies could be
interesting.   'Course I dunno how well it'd hold up in deep space....

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Aug 1996 22:35:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

>Actually, most ships that don't have a *good* reason to be painted some
>other way will be a "light" color overall, with the radiator panels
>being black. This is due to heat loading considerations. Sunlight at 1
>AU is several kW/m^2 of heat. Since ships already have problems getting
>rid of heat, you paint them a color that tends not to absorb it. 

You're partly right.

That is, you're right about the physics, but it's a part of physics that
Traveller ignores.  If you look at the actual power consumed on a starship,
which will end up as heat, you find many starships should be glowing a nice
cherry-red colour!  And then there's the robots emitting several kilowatts of
heat.

Passenger: "Steward, warm my coffee please."
Robot Steward: "My pleasure, sir." - sticks finger in coffee.

Anyway, for the sake of the game (and because I'm too lazy to rewrite FF&S,
or MT) I'll ignore the laws of thermodynamics in ship design.  And I'll paint
my ships to be eye-catching.

Having said that, most of my ships _are_ light-coloured, so that they stand
out against the black playing surface.  If I'm going to spend hours painting
a ship, I want it to be seen!

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan Sketch.

I apologize to the IG artist who did this drawing, but I _really_ don't
like it.  The Aslan in the sketch looks too humanoid.  I much prefered the
pics from the Aslan module (though the one in the anatomical drawing was
somewhat poorly done).  IG, please go back to the look of the Aslan on the
cover of Alien Module 1! 

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 10:41:53 UT
Subject: RE: Hardcovers: when?

Is it too late to order a hardcover?  I am already enjoying a softcover T4, 
but now would like to have a hard-bound copy if possible.

			---Boyd

- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Joe Walsh
Sent: 	Tuesday, August 27, 1996 9:29 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Hardcovers: when?

I spoke to Ken Whitman of Imperium Games today, and he said that they 
expect the hardcovers to arrive in time to get them in the mail to us 
by the end of next week (allowing time for Marc to sign them).  After 
that, it'll be up to the postal service as to how much longer we have to 
wait. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 10:54:36 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Availability & first impressions

Someone wrote:

>>I went to two stores in CSprings today.  Heroes & Dragons informed
>>me that there was no more Traveller, that GDW went under.  After I
>>corrected them, they explained their distributor hadn't told them
>>anything.  When their distributor tells them about it, they'll think
>>about carrying it.
>
>> The Compleat Gamer knew about it, ordered a dozen, received four,
>>and sold them already.
>
>It seems to be doing much better in the west than anywhere
>else..

When I talked to a guy at Games Unique at a north Dallas shopping mall last 
month, he emphatically denied the existance of T4 (said GDW was going under).  
I placed my name on a waiting list anyway, and when I picked my copy up on the 
22nd, he acted as though he was on top of all the latest news about T4 
(quoting all the things I said previously back to me).  

Anyway, they only got two copies, allegedly shipped without cellophane or 
plastic covers.  The copies were covered with greasy fingerprints as were the 
interior art.  Is this consistant with everyone your experience?  Or was he 
lying about the cellophane cover?  I personally like for my fingerprints to be 
the first ones on stuff I purchase (I otherwise rag-out my gaming materials).

BTW: I got both copies...(nyaah, nyaah)   <grin>

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:26:54 -0500
Subject: Got T4!

<LURKER MODE OFF>

I've been gone/busy for a while (thesis deadlines, a conference in
Seattle, blah, blah, ...) so have only been reading, and that
occasionally.  600+ messages after a week away!  

I got a paperback T4 yesterday; got tired of waiting for the hardbound
and besides (as I told my wife), it'll be handy to have a spare.  I told
the owner of the local hobby shop/game store/wedding decorations
showroom (it's a mother-and-son venture) about it a couple of weeks ago,
and he ordered exactly 1 copy.  The first thing I noticed was a page
which had been folded when cut at the printer and so had about 1/4 inch
of 'flash' hanging out of the cover.  Hopefully this isn't indicative of
the printers QA efforts.  However, since I wanted the book (he offered
to re-order with a 2-week wait), I wanted to encourage him carrying it,
and he offers a 20% discount on all 'adventure' games, I got it.  That
plus 4 D3's (numbers instead of pips, but only one was red on black)
cost about $24 :)  Next step is hypeing it to my game gang.

First impressions (more or less in order):

+  The cover looks sharp, and the type is easy to read.

- -  The binding doesn't lie open easily; hopefully it'll break in
without     breaking down.

- -  I made a point of looking for the weapons pictures and, yeah,
they      suck rocks.  My wife, who's something of an artist, wasn't so
kind ;)

+  The color pictures are really cool!

?  The B&W pictures are ok.

?  The pictures in general are scattered through the book with
little      relation to anything else.  Maybe if the bw's were related
to the       adventures and the colors were at chapter breaks?  Oh well,
too late    now.

- -  The editing leaves more than a little to be desired.  How a
'junp       drive' got through a spell checker is beyond me.  I hereby
volunteer    to assist with proofreading of future work (seriously, IG,
e-mail       me!).  I'm afraid this is a bit of a pet peeve for me;
in-line typos    and grammer errors tend to derail my train of thought.

+- QSDS is in there (+), but they butchered the organization (-)

?  The task system, IMHO, weighs characteristics too heavily compared
to    skills.  I'm considering dividing characteristics in half
and           subtracting 1D from each task difficulty level.  Comments?

?  I don't know MT or TNE, but I thought AHL/Striker was a
big             improvement over CT in terms of weapon pen vs armor. 
I'm not           terribly impressed by the combat system on first
glance.  Guess I'll    have to play test that a little.

The overall quality seems to be quite good.  I _do_ wish they had
another week or two to do the job as well as they appear to be able to.
Hopefully next time.

Gotta go.

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:32:55 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Availability & first impressions

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Anyway, they only got two copies, allegedly shipped without cellophane or
> plastic covers.  The copies were covered with greasy fingerprints as were the
> interior art.  Is this consistant with everyone your experience?  Or was he
> lying about the cellophane cover?  I personally like for my fingerprints to be
> the first ones on stuff I purchase (I otherwise rag-out my gaming materials).
>

It sounds right.  Mine looked a bit the worse for wear, and had just
come in that morning (yesterday)!  Moderately abused corners and misc.
smudges on front, plus a mis-cut page.  I guess they went for a lower
bid on the printing to keep the price down.  I figure that it'll make
little difference after a year or two of wear.  Hopefully, the hardbacks
will get a little more TLC.

> 
> BTW: I got both copies...(nyaah, nyaah)   <grin>

Yep, I got the only one, and the same day it came in.  Hopefully he'll
take the hint.  Gotta get back and start bugging him about JTAS.  Does
anyone know if IG's distributing that through retailers?

> 
>                                 ---Boyd

	Matt McL

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #355
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 29 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 356

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Hardcovers: when?
         2. RE: T4 Availability & first impressions
         3. T4 Availability
         4. Re: They call him Muecke
         5. Re: Got T4!
         6. Thanks from Imperium
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 # (fwd)
         8. Random Rambling but mostly Starship Miniature Painting...
         9. Doomed 3rd Imperium
        10. GM Screen contents
        11. Simple^n Combat system
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
        13. Re: Aslan Sketch.
        14. Re: Aslan Sketch.
        15. FRGGS, Painting
        16. [none]
        17. Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:37:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Hardcovers: when?

On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Is it too late to order a hardcover?  I am already enjoying a softcover T4, 
> but now would like to have a hard-bound copy if possible.
> 
> 			---Boyd


Hmm.  I really don't know.  

email imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com and ask 'em. :)

And please post the response here, in case anyone else might want to buy a 
hardcover. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Availability & first impressions

On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

[snip, snip, snip to my lou!]
> Anyway, they only got two copies, allegedly shipped without cellophane or 
> plastic covers.  The copies were covered with greasy fingerprints as were the 
> interior art.  Is this consistant with everyone your experience?  Or was he 
> lying about the cellophane cover?  I personally like for my fingerprints to be 
> the first ones on stuff I purchase (I otherwise rag-out my gaming materials).

Hmmm.  I don't know how T4 is being shipped, but I do know that every 
copy I've purchased (four softcover copies so far!) has been in prime 
condition.  No fingerprints, smudges, etc.  (In fact, my FLGS keeps one 
bagged copy of each game where people can see it, and the rest of the 
stock is kept in drawers so that they stay in perfect condition.  When 
you ask for a copy of a game, they deliver it to you by holding it on 
their fingertips, like a waiter carries a tray!)

> BTW: I got both copies...(nyaah, nyaah)   <grin>

Ut oh. Another one is on the road to owning too many copies of T4, like 
me. :)  (Once I get my two hardbacks, I'll have six copies...if I don't 
come up with an excuse to buy more in the meantime[G].  Yes, it's an 
illness.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Date: 29 Aug 96 10:08:34 +0000
Subject: T4 Availability

     On 27 Aug, Glenn M. Goffin said:
     
     >Games of Berkeley still doesn't have T4, but they said today that 
     >were expecting it soon.  They said, "sometimes the West Coast is the 
     >last to receive things," or words to that effect.
     
     Amazing - I picked up my softcover from Logical Choice, Canberra, 
     _Australia_ yesterday. A very rare occurrence. We must have got it 
     from the first shipping or something like that.
     
     First impressions are that it is really visually appealing. What I 
     would love to see though is a story behind the Foss colour plates. I 
     liked the storylines that went with the black and white prints too. 
     
     James Dempsey
     jamesd@spirit.com.au
     james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:21:45 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: They call him Muecke

Moin Derek Stanley,

> Good question.  I've only just got back into Traveller after a really 
> long hiatus.  And I mean really long.  I like the sound of the Company 
> name.  Mind you German names for things always have a cool ring.

	ARW sounds cooler than "general shipyard" TNE also used
	some german names for military companys e.g. "Sternmetal"

> BTW.  Is the Emperor's granddaughter in cold sleep or is she actually 
> alive and awake.  She'd be in her 70's by the time the new era came 
> about.  How did Strephon get a granddaughter anyway.  I know people will 
> ask.

	As known Stephanon had a lot of women (he even prefered to
	short leave his throne for them. This was the reason he
	stayed alive) one of them was on board of a P-Cruiser
	travelling with a small escord through the wilds to bring her
	save to Gusmege when Virus arived. As the other ships suicided,
	the mosquito powering up some weeks later, was the only
	fucking ship available.

	If forced to make shure that she realy is an Alea Alk, she will
	tell that most was lost by the last 100 years of war. I fact
	the only "truth" she has are some handscribles and voicedictates
	from stephanon in Mueckes synaptical memories. And a false holo
	containing the mariage of her mother an stefanon made by Muecke.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:55:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Got T4!

On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Matthew K. McLaughlin wrote:

[snip]
> First impressions (more or less in order):

> -  The editing leaves more than a little to be desired.  How a
> 'junp       drive' got through a spell checker is beyond me.  I hereby
> volunteer    to assist with proofreading of future work (seriously, IG,
> e-mail       me!).  I'm afraid this is a bit of a pet peeve for me;
> in-line typos    and grammer errors tend to derail my train of thought.

The editing bugs me as well.  

As for proofreading for IG, I do know that they are soliciting 
corrections.  If you want to go through the book and note every 
correction, then send your corrections to IG, I'm sure they'd appreciate 
it every much.  Someday, there will be a second printing, and they will 
need to know where the errors are. 

If you decide to do this, you might format your message like this:

Page 137, Line 1:  "Through them, PCs with NPCs, events, animals . . ."
Should Read: "Through them, PCs will have experiences with NPCs, events, 
animals . . ."

Or,

Page 137, Line 1: "Through them, PCs [will have experiences] with NPCs, 
events, animals . . ."


Send comments to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com.  They are actively 
soliciting errata.  Check out their web page 
(http://www.imperiumgames.com) to see the latest errata sheet.


> ?  I don't know MT or TNE, but I thought AHL/Striker was a
> big             improvement over CT in terms of weapon pen vs armor. 
> I'm not           terribly impressed by the combat system on first
> glance.  Guess I'll    have to play test that a little.

I'm having some difficulty adjusting to it, too.  But, I figure 
the T4 core rules are supposed to be simple enough to attract new 
gamers, so that explains why it's not like AHL or Striker.  Marc Miller 
has said he wants to have supplements of increasing complexity produced 
for each major subject.  Maybe there's an advanced combat system planned 
for release next year?

I'm personally looking forward to an advanced trade system.  Maybe in 
'97?  [please, IG, please!:)]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:39:44 -0500
Subject: Thanks from Imperium

Sometimes, when thinks are going well people forget to thank those that
help them out.  I just wanted to let everyone know that Traveller Softbacks
will be sold out within 30 days (Not bad when you consider that we expected
the first print run to last until after christmas).

So THANK YOU all!

Now to answer a few questions...

1) Hardbacks are due here Tuesday the 3rd.  If all goes right some of you
will be gitting yours as early as Saterday.

2) Chessex Distributors sales .5 D6 ask you store owner, he may already
have some.

3) We ship from the WEST COAST.  Our distributors are ordering
conservatively, which causes the retailers to only get a few at at time.
However, when a retailer tells you its out of stock, or his distributor
cant get it, all he is doing is trying to save face, Its hard for people to
say, "I dident think that this game would sale, but heck, what do I know!"

Keep up the good work on pestering the stores.  Every little bit helps.
Oh, and dont forget to play Traveller at your local shops, that really
helps to get new players, and if a store orners sees people playing, they
keep everthing in stock!

Your Friends at IG.

Ken Whitman



------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:45:39 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 # (fwd)

On 27 Aug 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:

> For those of you still wibbling on about "how do I get a .5D result", here's
> Unca Fozzie's magic trick for solving the problem. Make yer own d3.
> 
> 1. Get a normal D (d6), a pocket knife or small drill, and some paint - the same
> colour as the dice and the spots.
> 
> 2. Fill in some dots, viz:
> 
>     On the 4, two dots opposite each other, making a 2.
> 
>     On the 5, two dots opposite each other, making a 3.
> 
>     On the 6, all of 'em. Then make a small dint in the middle of that face, and
> dot some "dot colour" paint into the dint.
> 

Or order some of the blank D6's that are available form one of the 
companies (i recall Zocchi or Flying Buffaloe, I'll check into it 
tomorrow) and stencil in 2-1's, 2-2's, 2-3's.  Then put on some clear 
finish (the same stuff you use on miniatures).  Presto, D3's


Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:08:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Random Rambling but mostly Starship Miniature Painting...

Howdy,

I'm a long time Trav player and fan from the early days...  I had been into
Traveller for about 6-8 months when I bought JTAS #1 from GDW at their
offices in Bloomington-Normal on Father's Day Weekend in 1979.  I've been
on the list before but due to a job change (and loss of a free high-speed
net connection) I discontinued my sub for a couple of years.  With the
arrival of T4 I have resubscribed and have been lurking for the past week
or two.  I've enjoyed all of your posts, especally the one that Joe Walsh
posted about the Game Shop in Waukegan.  I'm planning a road trip from the
far west Chicago Suburbs to check that store out!  I hope that they have a
couple of things I'm looking for (see bottom of message)...

Anyway,  I've watched with increasing interest the posts on color schemes
for starship minatures.  I actually have not gotten around to painting my
Trav Mini's yet, but I've painted a vast number of Star Fleet Battle (SFB)
minatures so I have some experience with the subject.

On the subject of the ships themselves remember the type of ship that it is
and what it is intended for.  In other words, Scout Ships will primarily be
in a scheme of the Scout Service, a patrol craft the scheme of it's service
(planetary or otherwise), a subsidized merchant or "liner" would be in the
scheme of the owning firm or subsidy provider, a yacht would reflect the
personality of it's owner, whereas with a Free or Far Trader it's a case of
"anything goes" etc...

Most of these ships are going to be subjected to adverse conditions.  From
ground to atmosphere to orbit to deep space to jump space to atmospheric
reentry, to gas giant refueling these ships lead a rough life.  I wouldn't
expect a shiny new ship to remain in mint shape for very long.  To borrow a
line from Star Wars: "You came on that thing?  You're braver than I
thought!"...  Many ships will have the signs of hasty repairs from
mishaps... combat and otherwise.  Not to say that every ship is going to
look like a flying junkyard, but, for every professional starship painting
facility there will be 5 "Earl Schiebs".

For inspiration as to paint jobs simply look to your nearest commerical
airport.  I'm not saying that you should copy anyone's scheme but you can
pick similar styles for some of your ships.  Also take a close look at the
planes, they lead a tough life these days too.  Look for weathering details
that you can emulate with your mini's.

One can use the Chris Foss, Bill Keith, or other Traveller artists for
examples if you choose.  While I really like Chris Foss's work on T4, they
are great pictures, I have to admit that the type of ships CF has
illustrated is a marked departure from what I had considered Traveller
Ships to look like.  But then again I have 6 signed Bill Keith original oil
paintings on my bedroom wall too.  I realize that if times were reversed
and Foss did the early artwork and Keith was the newcomer we would probably
be having the same discussion too just with different names.  In a game
that is geared to the use of the imagination it's all a matter of
perspective.

Some thoughts on Camoflauge schemes...  As an experienced PaintBaller I can
tell you that the benefits from effective Camo come from proper
colorization (about 50%) and it's pattern (about 50%).  Half of the
objective of any Camo Scheme is to blend the object's colorization with
it's background and the other half is to disrupt object's shape to complete
the blending.  Consider the background the ship (or other object) wishes to
get lost in: Atmosphere, Desert, Forest, Urban, Ocean, Gas Giant or Deep
Space, etc...  A deep space pattern would have black but some deep grays
and some white specks as well.  A Desert pattern would look similar to the
US Desert Day camo, which would also blend well with similarly colored
terrain, planets, sea floors, etc.  An effective pattern will cause the eye
to skip over it.  Whereas a mono-tone Khaki wearing person on a sand dune
will look to the eye like a Khaki object in the shape of a man.
Interesting note...  The British call their camo uniforms DPM's for
"Disruptive Pattern Military"...   If you have ever seen a "Gillie Suit"
you know the heavy emphasis the British put on disguising the shape they
are trying to hide.

Another painting technique that I use quite frequently are "washes" with
water based colors.  What you do is paint your mini the main color you wish
all of the various parts to be: On a starship, the hull the color you want,
radiators a black the viewports a medium brown or green, the rocket
exhausts black or ashen gray, etc.  On a mini of a person all of the
features and clothing the colors you want, etc.  Then take a dab of black
(or other color such as tan or gray, etc) and dilute it to about 2 or 3
parts water and 1 part paint.  Then quickly spread this dilute mixture all
over the mini in broad strokes (you can use a larger brush for this), then
blow off any excess water.  What you end up with is a weathered effect
where the wash color settles in the details and gives the object a
realistic and detailed effect.  A black wash settles in crevaces and
emulates shadows, while a tan or gray emulates dust or sand.  You get the
idea...

Experiement with your ships.  You will get a better feel for what you like
as you go along.  Don't be afraid of painting over earlier work, after all
many ships will be repainted in the course of their lives.  Use as thin of
coats as possible in order to preserve as much detail as possible.

I have also found that if you do a good job painting your mini's and prime
them properly that they really don't need a gloss or flat clearcoat for
protection.  I have had a lot of SFB ships go through a lot of battles
without any discernable damage as long as they are not thrown around or
dropped onto hard surfaces.  If you take reasonable care of them they don't
need the extra coat.

Anyway, Sorry to ramble on so long about painting mini's, but I hope I have
posted something of use to someone.

BTW, I am in the market for the following items to complete my collection:

Challenge 63, 65 and 78 and up (Does anyone know when GDW ceased production
of Challenge?).  Traveller Chronnicles 1-4.  If anyone knows where I could
obtain these I would be most appreciative.

Cheers!

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 28 Aug 96 23:59:57 EDT
Subject: Doomed 3rd Imperium

>> By allowing this kind of senseless behavior to be perpetrated on it's
citizens the 3rd Imperium was doomed to failure from it's very inception.  It
was a poor government more concerned with the collection of taxes than the basic
human rights of its populace. <<

I agree. Possibly due to Star Wars influences (yeah, we started Travelling
_that_ long ago!), we always played the Imperium as a bureaucratic obstacle at
best and imperious fascists at worst.

"Let's say we'd like to avoid any... Imperial entanglements.." (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

>> I just shudder to thinks what objets d'art will survive into 4th millenia...
Baywatch, Saved by the Bell, Debbie Gibson, Madonna, Friday the 13th, Part 8,
...the HORROR...  ;-) <<

You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...


HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 28 Aug 96 23:59:55 EDT
Subject: GM Screen contents

>> I agree with you.  Equipment lists, skill lists, etc. shouldn't be on the GM
screen.  Penetration values and weapon damage is an iffy thing, though, because
while the PC sheets should have this information already given on them, the
NPC's (esp. on-the-spot ones) oftentimes won't. <<

Definitely weapon, penetration, and combat stuff! Most players have this stuff
down and can trot it out; some don't and my NPCs seem to be very poor at keeping
up their character sheets <g>. If some player suddenly decides to attack the
guards I'd designed as window dressing, I want to be able to easily decide what
they can do.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 28 Aug 96 23:59:59 EDT
Subject: Simple^n Combat system

>> How about an RRSSCS - a really, really, simple, space combat system.

I roll a d6, you roll a d6 if you are 2-over my roll, you get to declare the
result, disabled or destroyed. If I am 2 over ditto. For ties, we check range,
faster side declares it (just like CT). Round over. <<

<chuckle> Reminds me of a spoof wargame system from "Murphy's Rules" in Space
Gamer. Something like; 1) Toss coin. 2). Check result: Heads=Your army destroys
my army, Tails=My army destroys your army.


>> I am also on the Harn-L list, and we've been witness to one of the oddest
things I have seen in 20 years of gaming.  Columbia Games, the publishers of the
Harn line, proudly unveiled their latest product: Har <<

Heyyyy! I thought Harn was OOP! Could you MAIL me the address of the list?

HWF


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:22:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

David J. Golden wrote:

>         Thruster plates work out to several thousand AU basically
> unaffected, at which point some quantum tetrionic mumble mumble mumble
> effect sets in, and thrust drops by a factor of a hundred or so.

What does this mean to the TNE concept of Deep Space Calibration Points? 
 Are they still feasable?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:27:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan Sketch.

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
>I apologize to the IG artist who did this drawing, but I _really_ don't
>like it.  The Aslan in the sketch looks too humanoid.  I much prefered 
>the pics from the Aslan module (though the one in the anatomical drawing 
>was somewhat poorly done).  IG, please go back to the look of the Aslan 
>on the cover of Alien Module 1!

I like the style and I'm not going to knock the artist.  I think as far 
as a concept drawing it's great.  Unfortunately there's just too much 
history to go against here reguarding the appearance of the Aslan.

As far as it looking like an Aslan.  I'd have to say it bites.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:42:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan Sketch.

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> Charles Collin wrote:
> >
>>I apologize to the IG artist who did this drawing, but I _really_ don't
>>like it.  The Aslan in the sketch looks too humanoid.  I much prefered
>>the pics from the Aslan module (though the one in the anatomical 
>>drawing was somewhat poorly done).  IG, please go back to the look of 
>>the Aslan on the cover of Alien Module 1!
> 
> I like the style and I'm not going to knock the artist.  I think as far
> as a concept drawing it's great.  Unfortunately there's just too much
> history to go against here reguarding the appearance of the Aslan.
> 
> As far as it looking like an Aslan.  I'd have to say it bites.
> 
> Derek Stanley

Hummmm... Just looked at that puppie again.  Let me do something of a 
step backwards from my original sumation.  I love the clothes and body, 
tiger stripes are a definate two thumbs up, makes him look cool...  Nice 
agressive if arogant stance, don't take any shit from the fleshy bald 
creatures.  These just one thing I don't like.

The face.  Ya, well...  Mister Worf, take us into jump space...  Ya, just 
too klingon, like the eyes though.  Always had a thing for eyes though.  
That girl on the cover of National Geographic, wooooooo...  Shudder down 
my spine man those were haunting eyes.

One thing to remember this is listed as a concept drawing and let me tell 
you if you'd seen half the concept drawings I've seen and seen what came 
out of it you wouldn't be worried.  Best source for concept drawings to 
see what I mean.  Ralph McQuires (?) art of StarWars...  Must be his 
drawings, you could base a hundred great adventures just on those 
pictures alone.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FRGGS, Painting

>From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>

>2.	PAINTING

>Why is this topic "prone to flames"? It should just be about "here's a 
>good technique to use", not "you must paint ALL Imp Marine units in maroon".

This topic has never been prone to flames.  I just noted in a post that we'd
recently discussed it, and suggested that it was between discussions of rock
dropping and feudal technocracy.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 03:20:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Joe Walsh

>On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:
>
>> My suspicion is that the economical $25 pricetag was achieved by a
>> huge initial print run. I wouldn't count on a new printing for a
>> while, unless everyone follows the practice of buying 4 or more
>> copies.
>
>Well, there you go!  I'm doing /my/ part to bring about a second,
>error-free print run.  How about you? :)

An admirable aim, Joe. Bear in mind, howver, that in attempting to
correct errors, other errors will occur, ergo it is _extremely_
difficult to produce a completely error-free product.

Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

When the RAFM ships first came out (a few days before Origins, some
years ago) we were air-freighted a bunch of them. Frank handed a
couple of each to me and said "Paint these in time for the con...we're
running Brilliant Lances demos, y'know." I had about 8 hours to do
it, counting drying time.

I used a Gull Grey base coat from a spray can, with a wash of sepia
oil paint to pop the details. I then drybrushed small details in a variety of colors, trying for
"visually interesting." Stir in some micro-decals from assorted
sources (1/144 scale aircraft, fantasy and historical shield decals,
etc) and the results were good enough to draw compliments from many of
the players in the Brilliant Lances demos at that summer's con
circuit.

Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
> text is against my religion.

Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!

Loren K Wiseman
   GDW Emeritus



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

Derek Stanley wrote:

Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few 
>questions regarding their use.
>
>1)  In order to funtion corretly they need a gravity well of some kind 
>to"push off" of, Right?
>
>2)  The weaker the gravity well, ie the further out in a system you are, 
>the less effective these thrusters are, correct?

Yes to both.  Thrusters work out to 2000-3000 AU (they get you to Uranus,
but not to Neptune.  Thrusters are expensive and are not available until
TL 11. 

Grav-plates (ie what is used on grav vehicles) are cheap, they don't take
much power, but they are reduced to 1% of their normal thrust at 10
Diameters (I'm assuming stellar, planetary, or even asteroid diameters
here).  I'm getting all these figures off of the QDS. design page (or is
it the SSDS design page, I've forgotten).  Anyway, my take on this is
simply that the thrust of grav plates decreases by a factor of (distance
from the planet in diameters) squared (ie 1/25 thrust at 5 diameters... 

>3)  What's the theoretical cut off point for Grav-Plates?  ie.  Where do 
>they crap out?  100 diameters?  1000 diameters?  And I'm assuming we're 
>talking planetary diameters here not stellar diameters.

See above, they're pretty poor past 5 diameters.  As I said above, it 
makes most sense if both stellar and planetary diameters work, though I'd
not want to be in a ship 5 diameters from the sun.

Oh, I tried some quick back of the envelope calculations and found that
you could use a Grav vehicle capable of a 2 G thrust to go from Earth to
the Moon.  You accelaerate out from Earth to 8-10 diameters (ie when the
thrust is pretty minimal) you are no going *roughly* 16 kps, which is
above escape velocity and is fast enough to get to the Moon in 5 hours or
so (the journey to 10 diameters has taken a similar time). 

At this point you had better be aimed at the Moon or you are truly lost in
space.  If you are, then when you get to 10 diameters from the Moon you
turn your thrust back on and decelerate for all you're worth.  Total Earth
to Moon time will be around 10-15 hours (all very rough).  This will only
work for short journeys, since the travel time to Mars at absolute closest
approach is almost 2 months (ie much more time than I'd want to spend in a
car). 

All in all, I *really* like these grav plates.  They allow executives to
take their 47th century BMW to the moon for a meeting, but they don't work
to well for actual starships. 

>4)  If a ship some how wound up in an asteroid field, very small bodies 
>of rock, eg. the Kininur, how would a rescue team get in?  You'd think 
>all these very small gravity feilds would play hell upon the Grav-plates 
>mechanisms.

That would be very tricky and thrusters would be a much better bet.

>5)  Does the momentum you've accumulated using grav thrusters stick with 
>you when the thrusters crap out?  ie. If you're travelling at 100 kps (I 
>always do math with round numbers) heading away from a planet, you pass 
>point "y" at which the Grav-Plates ceace to function correctly, do you 
>maintatain your current vector you do you just sort of slow down and 
>stop?

I assume velocity is velocity and so once you leave the gravity well and
the grav-plates are useless you keep cruising along.  Any other answer
seems rather silly. 

>6)  If a ship miss-jumps into deep space, you're stuck right?  Assuming 
>you don't have the fuel to get back into J-Space, you're doomed to spend 
>an eternity floating about the void without any propulsion to at least 
>point you in the right direction.

If you misjump further than 3000 AU unless you drift within 10 diameters
of a comet or a moon you are definitely SOL unless you have a HEPLAR drive
too. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #356
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 29 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 357

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Clarification on "RSSC"
         2. Re: RSSC: avoid detection
         3. Re: your mail
         4. Re: your mail -Reply
         5. Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         6. Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #
         8. Re: Cold Fusion
         9. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        10. Greetings follow Traveller fans...
        11. Re: your mail -Reply
        12. Imperial Hulk
        13. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
        14. Re: GM Screen contents
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #352
        16. Imperial Hulk -Reply
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356
        18. I'm Baaack...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:52:03 -0400
Subject: Clarification on "RSSC"

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>I just want to prevent any confusion by pointing out that James Garriss' 
>"RSSC" postings do not refer to the system currently being worked out by 
>Eris and me over on GDW-Beta.  James emailed us privately to tell us that 
>he wanted to go his own direction with a ship combat system, which is 
>what he is doing.
>
>I have emailed James privately asking him to forgo the use of the "RSSC" 
>acronym to avoid confusion.

This posting, while no doubt well intentioned, is in error.  While I may
also be working on another system (I'm usually working on a variety of
things), I am also working with Eris and Joe on RSSC (unless they no longer
want anyone else's input).  So posting with the title RSSC are indeed meant
to be part of the discussion of RSSC and should be treated as such.

Hoping this clears up any confusion that was created,

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:52:03 -0400
Subject: Re: RSSC: avoid detection

At 12:44 PM 8/28/96 -0600, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
>> In T4, ships have Electromagnetic Masking (p90) which helps a ship avoid
>> detection.  But nowhere does it give the EM rating for the ship.  It does
>> however give a rating active sensors, passive sensors, and jamming.  So are
>> we to assume that the jamming rating of a ship includes it's EM rating?  I
>> think I'm going to use that until we get some clarification.  Therefore...
>
>Ships either have EMM or they don't.  The +3 or whatever in T4 is
>for any ship with EMM.  no DM if they don't have it.  Just like
>BL/BR.

You are quite correct.  I reread the rules on using sensors in Combat
(p117).  Good catch and thanks,

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:02:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: your mail

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> Joe Walsh
> 
> >On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:
> >
> >> My suspicion is that the economical $25 pricetag was achieved by a
> >> huge initial print run. I wouldn't count on a new printing for a
> >> while, unless everyone follows the practice of buying 4 or more
> >> copies.
> >
> >Well, there you go!  I'm doing /my/ part to bring about a second,
> >error-free print run.  How about you? :)
> 
> An admirable aim, Joe. Bear in mind, howver, that in attempting to
> correct errors, other errors will occur, ergo it is _extremely_
> difficult to produce a completely error-free product.

So, even though I've done as you said and bought 4 or more copies, the 
next print run could be just as bad?!?  Now you tell me!  Arrghh! :)


> Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> > Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
> > text is against my religion.
> 
> Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!

At work there are standards for just about everything, and the standard 
font is Ariel (which is pretty close to the fonts used for T4 and CT).  
Sooo....we're 30 years behind the times in our standards, eh?  Doesn't 
surprise me. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:57:39 -0400
Subject: Re: your mail -Reply

> Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> > Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
> > text is against my religion.
>  > Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!

>At work there are standards for just about everything, and the standard 
>font is Ariel (which is pretty close to the fonts used for T4 and CT).  
>Sooo....we're 30 years behind the times in our standards, eh?  Doesn't 
>surprise me. :)

What this comes from is that there has been research done (and I don't
remember by who--this info comes from a class I took called Publications
Layout & Design in college) that suggests that serif fonts are better to
use for text, while sans serif fonts should be used for titles, headings,
bulleted lists, etc. The theory is that the serifs (those tiny lines at the
bottom of letters on serif fonts--check out Times New Roman for an
example) help the reader to guide his / her eyes across the line of text.
They form sort of a "border" between one line and the next, and thus
should be used when there is a large block of text on the page. That's
why you'll see novels (and most other books), newspapers, and
magazines printed in some kind of serif font. 

I, for one, find it easier to read serif fonts, and was hoping IG would've
taken some of the latest design research into account when typesetting
T4. Oh well. I'm sure that most people don't notice it.

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:17:38 PST
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:30:30 -0700 (PDT), Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>> The naked eye isn't necessarily the standard for visual range.  Ships will
>> certainly have visual sensors and image processing capabilities, and may
>> well use lenses to enhance the capabilities of the naked eye (or maybe I
>> just like the thought of naval officers on the bridge looking through
>> binoculars).
>
> Visual sensors will only be useful under *powerful* zoom, and this means a
> *very* narrow field of vision.  To acquire a visual lock on a ship at these
> distances would either be pure luck or require the use of other sensors to
> acquire the target first (meaning that the ship already has a better way of
> tracking the target than "visually").

Remember, "lidar" is one of the sensors you are talking about. So the
lower the reflectance of the hull, the less chance of anyone getting a
usable return from your ship. It also reduces the reflected (and
emitted) light, making the ship harder to detect.

The big problem is IR. Reducing radiated IR is going to be a real
problem. Thankfully, IR is not suitable for a reflected beam sensor the
way microwaves and light are. 

Thus my suggested "stealth bubble" for ships. A large, opaque bubble of
a diameter such that the IR it re-radiates will be at too low a temp to
be effectively detected. This could easily require a bubble kilometers
across. So making it black is good insurance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:38:41 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

In mail you write:

>>Actually, most ships that don't have a *good* reason to be painted some
>>other way will be a "light" color overall, with the radiator panels
>>being black. This is due to heat loading considerations. Sunlight at 1
>>AU is several kW/m^2 of heat. Since ships already have problems getting
>>rid of heat, you paint them a color that tends not to absorb it. 
>
> You're partly right.
>
> That is, you're right about the physics, but it's a part of physics that
> Traveller ignores.  If you look at the actual power consumed on a starship,
> which will end up as heat, you find many starships should be glowing a nice
> cherry-red colour! 

Actually, you can produce some *very* eye-catching ships by using real
physics. I forget who did it, but I recall a *lovely* design using
liquid drop radiators. You basicly "spray" out a stream of drops of
molten metal near the nose of the ship. The stream of drops spreads a
bit on the way to the collectors nears the stern. In this design, the
streams are running parallel to some "vanes", that help reflect the
heat into space. 

So you have this ship that looks rather like like a *very* stretched
out hunting broadhead, and with these streams drops that start out
blinding white and cool to a dull orange be the time they reach the
tail. 

Now *that* would be a nice looking ship. Of course, it'd be about as
inconspicuous as a nuclear flare, but it'd still be pretty.

> And then there's the robots emitting several kilowatts of
> heat.

Only if designed badly. It shouldn't take *that* much power. Of course,
there are these problems with folks who don't realize that metals are a
lot weaker than multi-phase composite naterials... like bone... :-)

As John W. Campbell pointed out long ago, if you are confronted by a
human sized robot, with human proportions, and the standard metal alloy
limbs, you can just walk up and tie its arms into knots.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:02:13 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #

In mail, traveller@MPGN.COM writes:

> That's it. Yeah, I know, the dots don't follow the strict rules of sides 
> adding up.

That reminds me. Are your d6 right handed or left handed?

How do you tell? Set them down with the 1 facing you, and the 2 on top.
Now check and see which side the three is on, right or left.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:13:01 PST
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion

In mail you write:

>
> On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> BTW, for an interesting take on the way a cultural much like America
>> might go if very high speed vehicles *were* common, try to track down
>> the stories Rick Raphael wrote about the Transcontinental Thruway
>> Police back in the 60's. They appeared in Analog (even got the cover a
>> couple of times) and were collected in a book titled "Code Three" (I've
>> seen exactly *two* copies. One belonged to a friend who bought it new.
>> The other took a book hunter a couple of years to track down for me.
>
>    Great book - I've got a copy. (The only one _I've_ seen) ;)

Here's an adventure starting point for you. 

Have the players land on a planet that has the Transcon Thruways, and
all that goes with them. Get them into a car with someone and out in
the highspeed lane of the thruway, cruising at 500-600 mph. If you are
nice you'll let them get over being boggled. If not, you'll just start
the action (an accident, an attack, a heart attack by the driver,
whatever) before they can adjust.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 06:58:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
>>Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few
>>questions regarding their use.             ^^^^^^^^^^^

Oops replace all my comments on Grav-plates with Grav-Thrusters.  Sorry.

>Yes to both.  Thrusters work out to 2000-3000 AU (they get you to 
>Uranus, but not to Neptune.  Thrusters are expensive and are not 
>available until TL 11.

Okay, that's acceptable.
 

>>4)  If a ship some how wound up in an asteroid field, very small bodies
>>of rock, eg. the Kininur, how would a rescue team get in?  You'd think
>>all these very small gravity feilds would play hell upon the 
>>Grav-plates mechanisms. 
> That would be very tricky and thrusters would be a much better bet.

Okay, I'd guess that grav thrusters would work out there,  I beleive from 
watching "Bill Nye the Science guy"  Where they build a scale model of 
the Solar System, where the sun was a 1 meter beach ball, that 1000 
diameters is somewhere around Jupiter and 2000 is around Saturn.
 
>I assume velocity is velocity and so once you leave the gravity well and
>the grav-plates are useless you keep cruising along.  Any other answer
>seems rather silly.

This is a problem I've had because I vaguely remember a discussion about 
these things that seemed to indicate they violate the law of conservation 
of momentum in this requard.
 
>>6)  If a ship miss-jumps into deep space, you're stuck right?  Assuming
>>you don't have the fuel to get back into J-Space, you're doomed to 
>>spend an eternity floating about the void without any propulsion to at 
>>least point you in the right direction.
> 
>If you misjump further than 3000 AU unless you drift within 10 diameters
>of a comet or a moon you are definitely SOL unless you have a HEPLAR 
>drive too.

This has always been my greatest mis-giving about the inclusion of 
Grav-Thursters, if for some reason you wind up in the middle of the big 
black you're screwed, boned and f*cked in the biggest sence of the word. 
 You'd never come back and no one would ever know what happened.  The 
rifts would be utterly impassable to ships without HEPLAR because you 
could never manouver into your deep space calibration point they'd just 
watch you float by 100 yards off the starboard bow and there's nothing 
they could do to stop you.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:55:39 -0400
Subject: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

I have bee lurking for a couple of week to get the feel of the group. 
 Several questions and comments arise.

First, I got my copy of T4 yesterday.  I kinda like the new ship 
looks, but the lab ship now looks like a racer instead of research 
vessel.  Some of the ships just need that bukly look.

Is there a FAQ for either this maillist or for painting miniatures.  I 
figured this would keep me & any other newcomers from stepping on 
people's toes.

Since there is the mail list for CT & MT and also one for TNE, which 
will T4 fall into?  It would be more logical to me for it to be in CT 
& MT since it seems (at first glance) to be more like these than TNE.


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:45:37 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: your mail -Reply

 
> What this comes from is that there has been research done (and I don't
> remember by who--this info comes from a class I took called Publications
> Layout & Design in college) that suggests that serif fonts are better to
> use for text, while sans serif fonts should be used for titles, headings,
> bulleted lists, etc. The theory is that the serifs (those tiny lines at the

I've studies of this as well.  Serif fonts are more readable, and
sans serifs are more legible.

Someone else had mentioned Optima, and I threw Myriad into the mix.
These 2 are sans serif fonts, but they flair a little at the ends
of the strokes to increase readability.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 29 Aug 96  9:09:19 MS
Subject: Imperial Hulk

Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM> said
>> I just shudder to thinks what objets d'art will survive into 
>>4th millenia...Baywatch, Saved by the Bell, Debbie Gibson, 
>>Madonna, Friday the 13th, Part 8,
>>...the HORROR...  ;-) 
>
>You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...

This would mean that the SciFi channel still exists in the Third Imperium?

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
At least SciFi Channel has Anime Week!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:44:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

Welcome to the list, Clint!

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Clint Fishback wrote:

> Is there a FAQ for either this maillist or for painting miniatures.  I 
> figured this would keep me & any other newcomers from stepping on 
> people's toes.

The FAQ for this mailing list is at http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd
Dave Golden has some stuff about painting miniatures up on his site at:
http://www.usa.net/~goldenj/Traveller


> Since there is the mail list for CT & MT and also one for TNE, which 
> will T4 fall into?  It would be more logical to me for it to be in CT 
> & MT since it seems (at first glance) to be more like these than TNE.

Well, there's really not a mailing list specifically and exclusively for 
TNE...

traveller@mpgn.com is for discussions of all forms of Traveller, while
xboat@mpgn.com is for discussions of CT and MT.

Whether the TNE afficianados will want to split off and make their own 
list is unknown at this time. 

Thanks for posting.  I hope to hear more from you in the future!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:59:27 -0700
Subject: Re: GM Screen contents

My wish list:

1>  The default skill list on both sides.  So that I don't have remember in
the middle of an event that skill X is a default, and player Y has a chance
to pull off his stunt.

2>  The basics of the task system.

3>  Quick reminders on the format of animal/NPC stats.

I'm probably going to design my own screen, and have it printed onto heavy
stock at Kinko's.  My screen will have the going rates for GM bribery on the
players' side.  :)

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #352

In-Reply-To: <9608272256.AA31142@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Random Thoughts
> 
> > I wonder if this is a plot like the one Games Workshop has been
> > rumored to be hatching?  GW now distributes its own line, just like
> > Marvel (DC Comics go through an exclusive distributor now, too). In 
a
> > few years, GW, according to speculative rumor, analyzes the sales
> > data and picks, based on the data, locations in which to open its 
own
> > stores! GW _is_ a store chain in the UK and parts of the US now, so
> > the reasoning goes, why not complete the vertical integration of the
> > industry?
> 
> If such did occur. GW would find themselves facing an anti-trust suit
> rather quickly. You aren't allowed to "lock" the market that way. 

Last I heard, they did and they are. Most British gamers *despise* GW, 
who've killed off many independent games shops and magazines.
 
> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> Subject: Re: Re: Laser/Military Weapons
> 
> >> Still waiting for my T4 hardcover.
> >
> >Good things come to those who wait, Rob ;)
> 
> Uh, yeah.  You know, given that IG has had my money since June, it 
would be
> nice to get a little bonus when the books do arrive.  

They only charged my credit card a few weeks ago.

> From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
> Subject: RE: Re: Random Thoughts
> 
> manuals as 'proof'.  I had one kid tell me that Wizards of teh Coast 
was
> responsible for 'certifying' new games, and that nothing could be an 
official
> role playing game (like Magic) until WotC approved it!

Huh. Everyone knows that's TSR...

> From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

FWIW, I painted Scouts mid-grey, Navy in blue, SDBs in black, and 
merchants etc in whatever lookd good (SubM in yellow, FarT in green, 
FreeT in bright pink(!)...). Engines & guns in black. Dry-brushed in 
something lighter.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:25:49 -0400
Subject: Imperial Hulk -Reply

>> I just shudder to thinks what objets d'art will survive into  >>4th
millenia...Baywatch, Saved by the Bell, Debbie Gibson,  >>Madonna,
Friday the 13th, Part 8,
>>...the HORROR...  ;-)  >
>You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...

>This would mean that the SciFi channel still exists in the Third Imperium?

All right, all right, enough Hulk bashing. He could be the reason some of
those worlds are interdicted, you know. Imagine a race of Hulks running
around on some barren world  :)

Gee, that would be a truly evil thing to do to a group of players!

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:37:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356

Replying to recent digests:
1]  Speaking for a die-hard Traveller loyalists, it pleases me to hear from
Ken that the softcovers have sold out.  I am sure this will encourage my
peers to double their efforts in identifying all the typos and errata that
exist so that an improved second printing will occur soon.
2]   In regards to some desires for IG to produce an Advanced Combat system,
I would approve, but only with the following caveat:  Be true to T4.
I believe one of the early signs of decay of Classic Traveller was the
proliferation of rules and supplements, especially for ground combat.  There
was SNAPSHOT, which was similar to CT (but with a structured action system,
like a wargame but truest to CT's combat system and definitely playable);
there was AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING (nice on its own merits, but a system with
the concepts of penetration and a fixed damage results table modified by net
penetration... making it signifcantly different from CT), and STRIKER (more
similar to AHL, but able to handle massed battles and possessing a pre FF&S
design system).
    THREE distinct supplements... there was no unification with the core
rules except in SNAPSHOT, the earliest of the three.  NO WONDER MegaTraveller
was justified in its pre-release advertisments as a design intended to
"unify" the vast information and rules produced over the last 10 years.
     To IG: IF you should feel it necessary to produce advanced rules for
ground combat, or anything else for that matter (and this is controversial as
I think many players would prefer adventures, Mileau books for the different
backgrounds including beyond the time of TNE, as well as equipment and
starship lists [and design procedures beyond QSDS or SSDS... do I hear FF&S
2?]), IT WILL BE IMPORTANT TO BUILD UPON THOSE SYSTEMS ALREADY IN PLACE IN
THE T4 CORE RULES.  People may quibble and whine about throwing tons of dice,
or its unsuitability for this and that, but as the system developers, you
must make it work. You have built a foundation in T4, use it to build upon
it, not away from it.
      Otherwise, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past
(MegaTraveller 2 aka T5).
      T4 is a good system, everything should stem from it.

                                                                      Charles

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:57:18 -0400
Subject: I'm Baaack...

        After a lengthy and somewhat annoying vacation from the Net, I have
returned to spew more drivel and nonsense about Traveller.
        I have some things to say to a few people, but they aren't personal
and some of you might want to get in on this. So here goes...
        MARC MILLER, KEN WHITMAN AND ALL AT IMPERIUM GAMES: Excellent job.
Could have been a little better in the editing/proofreading department, but
with the deadlines you were working under, I'm actually surprised things
weren't more screwy. I'd also bet that some of these things were PRINTING
problems beyond your control. But the GAME itself is excellent! I also
appreciated how some of the things I liked best about TNE were retained, but
in the framework of a much smoother system.
        GUY "DEREK WILDSTAR" GARNETT: I missed all or most of the discussion
regarding QSDS, and as I'm not on GDW-Beta (or is it IG-Beta now?) anymore,
I couldn't be on on it's design. You did an EXCELLENT job here. Maybe my
friend Dave Nelson will quit whining about the loss of FF&S now...
        LOREN WISEMAN: Delighted to see you here! I'm no longer on AOL, but
now that I'm back on here, maybe I'll drop you a line one of these days.
        ALL ON THIS LIST: T4 should bring the Traveller community together,
not push it farther apart. As more parts of the system are released, I'm
sure it will be as good or better than TNE ever was (it's already far better
in some ways, such as being MUCH more compatible with what went before). I
enjoyed TNE and defended it vigorously, but I have to say I'm pleased as
punch with T4.
        Now, howzabout we work up a good method of converting TNE characters
to the new game?
          Allen Shock
          (not Susan as stated above; that's a vicious Zhodani-inspired
rumor...) 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #357
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 29 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 358

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 Thoughts
         2. [none]
         3. Culture and the Traveller Background (Was: Imperial Hulk)
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #352
         5. Re: Random Rambling but mostly Starship Miniature Painting...
         6. Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply
         7. Re: I'm Baaack...
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356
         9. Errata from IG <thanks!!>
        10. Going TL1 . . .:)
        11. Re: Culture and the Traveller Background (Was: Imperial Hulk)
        12. Traveller special forces training option.
        13. Advanced Combat (was: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356)
        14. Foss ships...
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356
        16. Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
        17. Re: your mail -Reply
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356
        19. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
        20. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:49:40 -0400
Subject: T4 Thoughts

Well, I wanted to wait until I finished reading this before I posted
anything.  I'm not going to waste bandwidth with yet another review.
However, there were a few things that I wanted to say, and a few
comments I hope will spawn discussion.

First, let me say that I think IG did a great job.  A few typos, but I'm
not complaining.  I really liked the Foss art.  I think it does an
excellent job of reminding me that this is Year 0 not 1115.  Oh, the
only Foss art I loathed was the weapon art.  8(  The interior is clean
and crisp.  I would have preferred inline art that had something to do
with the text it's near.  I think that it helps draw more attention to
the product as opposed to full page images.  But the heading are easy to
find and everything is laid out nicely.

I do agree with an idea voiced earlier; tell us what's going on in the
Foss art.  Hey, this is definitely the making of a JTAS article!

Okay, enough posturing.  Time for some discussion.  8)

I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
the controlling attribute.  Good examples of tasks systems that do this
(and also just happen to be my favorites) are:  the task systems for
MegaTraveller, CORPS, and Heavy Gear.  In all of these, the controlling
attribute is used at a fraction of it's level (MT and CORPS), or as a
die modifier (HG).

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Hostman will agree with me on this one.
Speaking of which, William, have you figured out the breakdown of
exceptional success, etc with the new system yet?

Also, what do people think of the experience system?  Some players I was
talking to aren't sure if they're too thrilled with the idea of gambling
experience away to some dice rolls.

The new combat system is definitely much more streamlined than TNE.  A
big plus.  I think this will definitely help in not scaring people off.
There's something to be said with presenting just the basics and adding
advanced stuff later (or at least in a different chapter).

Anyway, enough rambling, mostly I just wanted to see what other people
thought of these topics.

        --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: smithw@bing.televar.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:41:59 -0700
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:54:32 -0700
Subject: Culture and the Traveller Background (Was: Imperial Hulk)

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> 
> Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM> said
> >> I just shudder to thinks what objets d'art will survive into
> >>4th millenia...Baywatch, Saved by the Bell, Debbie Gibson,
> >>Madonna, Friday the 13th, Part 8,
> >>...the HORROR...  ;-)Good style comes and goes, but bad taste lives on FOREVER;)
> >
> >You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...
> 
> This would mean that the SciFi channel still exists in the Third Imperium?

Good question. What would sf and general culture look like in the Far Future[tm]? Styles 
would come and go, but humaniti would take cultural baggage with him, good and bad, into 
the interstellar diaspora. 

How will prestellar Vilani and Zhodani "culture" adapt to the reality of starflight? The 
Zhos would be _very different_ from the rest of humaniti due to the impact psionics have 
had on their culture.

This is an area not often explored by us intrepid travellers. I'd like to see other 
minds chew on the idea of defining a current culture for the various milleus. The work 
thought put into the culture and social outlook of RC society was one of the good (nay, 
GREAT) points of TNE.

> At least SciFi Channel has Anime Week!

A Sailor Moon-a-Thon? Aaaaiiiiii! ;) 

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
I don't have cable...I have a modem



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:04:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #352

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> 
> Last I heard, they did and they are. Most British gamers *despise* GW,
> who've killed off many independent games shops and magazines.

Kinda like the way so many grognards despised TSR back in the early 80s (and I still do) 
after the SPI fiasco. Substitute "companies" for "shops," "TSR" for "GW," and delete the 
word "British," and you have an idea of my opinion of TSR.


> They only charged my credit card a few weeks ago.

Good on IG. I remember something from an old (The) Space Gamer about game ads terms and 
what they _really_ mean, and under "Preorders Accepted" it said something to the effect 
of "You get your game two weeks early, we get your monry two months early." Wonderfully 
cynical, but at least IG didn't charge your credcard _immediately_. 

>
> > manuals as 'proof'.  I had one kid tell me that Wizards of teh Coast
> was
> > responsible for 'certifying' new games, and that nothing could be an
> official
> > role playing game (like Magic) until WotC approved it!
> 
> Huh. Everyone knows that's TSR...

Back in the 80s, I thought SJG did this with all of those capsule reviews in TSG (ghods, 
how I miss it!!). 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:25:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Random Rambling but mostly Starship Miniature Painting...

Chuck Maddox wrote:
<<snip>>
> BTW, I am in the market for the following items to complete my collection:
> 
> Challenge 63, 65 and 78 and up (Does anyone know when GDW ceased production
> of Challenge?).  Traveller Chronnicles 1-4.  If anyone knows where I could
> obtain these I would be most appreciative.

My last ish of Challenge is #77, Chuck.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:13:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply

Richard L. Sezov wrote:

> All right, all right, enough Hulk bashing. He could be the reason some of
> those worlds are interdicted, you know. Imagine a race of Hulks running
> around on some barren world  :)

Maybe they are not hulks all the time and the world is not interdicted...like, say, 
during periods of intense solar flare activity (like the bad-but-not-the-worst one that 
forced their ship down on an Uncharted World[tm] . . .) and the PCs crash-land on a 
world that is host to a people normally as gentle as the "servants of Vol' in that 
ST:TOS episode "The Apple."

Meanwhile, as the PCs race to repair their ship, the flares get worse. The energetic 
particles from the flares interact with strange chemicals in the atmosphere to cause a 
mutagenic reaction among the natives (not the PCs): from Peter Graves in a sheet to HULK 
SMASH!!!
> 
> Gee, that would be a truly evil thing to do to a group of players!

Thanks for the evil idea heheheeeee.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:05:35 -0700
Subject: Re: I'm Baaack...

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>         After a lengthy and somewhat annoying vacation from the Net, I have
> returned to spew more drivel and nonsense about Traveller.

No such thing as Traveller nonsense or drivel. But then again, this is the first time 
I've seen you (I'm new).

>         I have some things to say to a few people, but they aren't personal
> and some of you might want to get in on this. So here goes...
>         MARC MILLER, KEN WHITMAN AND ALL AT IMPERIUM GAMES: Excellent job.
> Could have been a little better in the editing/proofreading department, but
> with the deadlines you were working under, I'm actually surprised things
> weren't more screwy. I'd also bet that some of these things were PRINTING
> problems beyond your control. But the GAME itself is excellent! I also
> appreciated how some of the things I liked best about TNE were retained, but
> in the framework of a much smoother system.

Another TNE fan! Hmmm...

<<deletia>>

>         ALL ON THIS LIST: T4 should bring the Traveller community together,
> not push it farther apart. As more parts of the system are released, I'm
> sure it will be as good or better than TNE ever was (it's already far better
> in some ways, such as being MUCH more compatible with what went before). I
> enjoyed TNE and defended it vigorously, but I have to say I'm pleased as
> punch with T4.

Likewise. I'm now running a small campaign to test out the rules, and so far, I'm 
delighted with the results.
>         Now, howzabout we work up a good method of converting TNE characters
> to the new game?

Hmmm...at least attributes won't really change too much in value, but skills will change 
radically. 

My Quick & Dirty conversion scheme: Attributes retain the same values, but AGL=DEX and 
CON=END. Skills convert at TNE Level 1-3 = T4 level 1, TNE 4-6 = T4 Level 2, and Levels 
7-10 in TNE = levels 4-6 in T4. I'm assuming that since a skill cannot be improved above 
6 in T4, then 6 is the ceiling on skills. 

I invite commentary, flames, and random gunfire on this, and maybe _we_ can create a 
system for IG to publish in JTAS ;)

>           Allen Shock
>           (not Susan as stated above; that's a vicious Zhodani-inspired
> rumor...)

I thought the Zho were _our friends_ now, Allen;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:52:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356

ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Replying to recent digests:
> 1]  Speaking for a die-hard Traveller loyalists, it pleases me to hear from
> Ken that the softcovers have sold out.  I am sure this will encourage my
> peers to double their efforts in identifying all the typos and errata that
> exist so that an improved second printing will occur soon.

That's really good news, IGA . . . and I'll be glad to join you in the 
blue-pencil-athon. See my post re:errata:)

<<deletia>>

>      To IG: IF you should feel it necessary to produce advanced rules for
> ground combat, or anything else for that matter (and this is controversial as
> I think many players would prefer adventures,

> Mileau books for the different backgrounds including beyond the time of TNE,

My personal preference is adventures in what IG is calling the 'Virus Era." but I'll 
take what I can get when it comes to Traveller's "13th Century." I'm a die-hard Star 
Vikings nut.

> as well as equipment and
> starship lists [and design procedures beyond QSDS or SSDS... do I hear FF&S
> 2?]), 

I _thought_ that buzz was the sound of one shipyard building ;) Zen FF&S. Hmmm...

> IT WILL BE IMPORTANT TO BUILD UPON THOSE SYSTEMS ALREADY IN PLACE IN
> THE T4 CORE RULES.  People may quibble and whine about throwing tons of dice,
> or its unsuitability for this and that, but as the system developers, you
> must make it work. You have built a foundation in T4, use it to build upon
> it, not away from it.

Notice that the successful RPG systems do just that? I cite GURPS and Hero as examples.

>       Otherwise, we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past
> (MegaTraveller 2 aka T5).
>       T4 is a good system, everything should stem from it.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:43:29 -0700
Subject: Errata from IG <thanks!!>

Hi all!

Here's the text of a reply to  an email message I sent IG this week. Thanks to Tony Lee 
of IG for the information and kind permission to post it to the TML.

Answers appear before the questions:)

> 1) No.
>
> >1. Do enlisted promotions count for the purporses of skills
> >gained during a term (pg. 29)?
>
> 2) Your #3 is correct.
>
> >2. Do prospective Marine officers: (1) Attend NOTC/Naval Academy;
> >(2) Attend OTC/Military Academy; (3) Always start their Marine
> >careers as enlisted men (no college/academy option)?
>
> 3) Use autofire rules
>
> >3. Do burst-limited "automatic" weapons (the ACRs, SMG and
> >Service Pistol when set on burst) use the autofire rules as
> >written or do burst-limited arms work differently? No alternative
> >mechanic is given . . . but with the differentiation between
> >full-auto and burst-limited, there is some doubt.
>
> 4) Drop "autofire" from the description.
>
> >4. Is the Bullpup Rifle a semi-auto or some kind of full-auto
> >weapon?

Matt also made clear that the Bullpup Rifle is a semiauto rifle.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:16:41 -0700
Subject: Going TL1 . . .:)

I'm going to go offline for a couple of days to attend a Society for Creative 
Anachronism event, Ducal Prize Tournament, over the 3-day holiday weekend. 

>From the cusp of the 21st Century to the late 11th; from a computer head and game geek 
to a invalided Alexian Byzantine cavalry officer and bookworm. Scroll-worm? Whatever.

See all of you on Tuesday. Keep the Flame!

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:58:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Culture and the Traveller Background (Was: Imperial Hulk)

Maybe for Anime week they can have something like:
G-Force 
Speed Racer
Godzilla (it's on Cartoon Network)
and Robotech

EEEEWW... (The sound my daughters make when I make something they don't like 
to eat!!)

Matt

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:18:30 -0700
Subject: Traveller special forces training option.

Just my two cents here.  Does anyone know if there will be any supplements for 
advanced combat training coming out?  This would be similar to the current 
special forces training (S.E.A.L Team, Delta Force, Airborne Rangers, etc.)  
What does everyone else think?  I don't have T4 yet, but if I ever get the 
money I'll nab it:(  Otherwise it's on the Christmas list!!  One way or 
another, I'll get it.

Matt

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:10:07 -0700
Subject: Advanced Combat (was: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356)

At 02:58 PM 8/29/96 -0400, ImpGrAdmr@aol.com wrote:

<snip>

>2]   In regards to some desires for IG to produce an Advanced Combat system,
>I would approve, but only with the following caveat:  Be true to T4.
>I believe one of the early signs of decay of Classic Traveller was the
>proliferation of rules and supplements, especially for ground combat.  There
>was SNAPSHOT, which was similar to CT (but with a structured action system,
>like a wargame but truest to CT's combat system and definitely playable);
>there was AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING (nice on its own merits, but a system with
>the concepts of penetration and a fixed damage results table modified by net
>penetration... making it signifcantly different from CT), and STRIKER (more
>similar to AHL, but able to handle massed battles and possessing a pre FF&S
>design system).

I am currently working on an advanced combat system for T4.  In fact I had
to stop work while I waited for my copy of the rules!  My system, _At close
Quarters_, focuses on the short range encounters most common in my long
Traveller experience.

It seems to me that most Traveller combat takes place in confined spaces..
ships, Ancient sites, Megacorp offices, etc...  I have focused on the
intensity of fire combat at contact range.

My system uses initiative points, similar to Snapshot's Action Points, to
control PC actions.  Players can lose IP by being wounded or having near
miss, failing morale checks, or by committing to long term actions.

The play stresses reaction time.. players are encouraged to conserve IPs and
move carefully, lest they blunder into a pirate ambush.  PCs can either
charge recklessly, or use good tactical movement.. It's their lives, their
choice.

I have worked hard to insure that play is fast and doesn't require
additional paperwork for the players.  I suggest that players use glass
pebbles (most people have them for Magic or something similar) to keep track
of their IPs.

The system is 100% compatable with Traveller, and is intended to serve when
a more detailed combat resolution is called for.

I don't cover more military issues such as heavy weapons, large scale
battles, and the like.  This is a system for adventurers.

Hopefully, I can sell this to IG, and Earn Big Bucks as a Professional Game
Designer!  Be a Man among men.  Stride the world in seven-league boots!

Hey, I could use the money, okay?

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.. a Very Rough draft will be up on
my web page by next weekend (7-8 September).


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:15:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Foss ships...

I was looking at the Foss ships again.  I started working on some
designs, the trick is figuring out the tonnage of these guys.

I'm working on the red/yellow one with the "claw" on the fron towing
the rock/ice over Italy (dunno the page number off hand).  I'm
making it an asteroid mining tug.  The claw will be a grapple to
attach it to asteroids.  It'll be TL12, BTW.  Looks to be several
hundred tons.

Streamlined for remote fueling options, probably be jump-1 for long
trips out.  Lots of storage room for supplies since it might take a
while at low acceleration to get home (its mass will be huge with
something in tow).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:08:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com wrote:

> Replying to recent digests:
> 1]  Speaking for a die-hard Traveller loyalists, it pleases me to hear from
> Ken that the softcovers have sold out.  I am sure this will encourage my
> peers to double their efforts in identifying all the typos and errata that
> exist so that an improved second printing will occur soon.

Now that I have so many copies of T4, I should probably use a highlighter 
to indicate the typos and such, then send it to IG. :)


> 2]   In regards to some desires for IG to produce an Advanced Combat system,
> I would approve, but only with the following caveat:  Be true to T4.

Good advice.  I believe it will be possible to create quite detailed 
rules for various types of combat without invalidating the T4 rules.  IG 
has left the door open on a lot of things, and much of what they have 
defined allows room for expanding those rules.

As for me, I'd be happy if someone came up with a set of tables to roll 
on to find out just what that Lo Ni Po cargo really is . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:13 -0600
Subject: Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

At 09:38 pm 8/28/96 PST, you wrote:
>Actually, you can produce some *very* eye-catching ships by using real
>physics. I forget who did it, but I recall a *lovely* design using
>liquid drop radiators. You basicly "spray" out a stream of drops of
>molten metal near the nose of the ship. The stream of drops spreads a
>bit on the way to the collectors nears the stern. In this design, the
>streams are running parallel to some "vanes", that help reflect the
>heat into space. 

        Hmmm ... I asked at my hobby store for a molten-metal-sprayer and
got this really funny look.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:11 -0600
Subject: Re: your mail -Reply

At 08:57 am 8/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Roderick Darroch Elliott:
>> > Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
>> > text is against my religion.
>>  > Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!
>
>>At work there are standards for just about everything, and the standard 
>>font is Ariel (which is pretty close to the fonts used for T4 and CT).  
>>Sooo....we're 30 years behind the times in our standards, eh?  Doesn't 
>>surprise me. :)
>
>What this comes from is that there has been research done (and I don't
>remember by who--this info comes from a class I took called Publications
>Layout & Design in college) that suggests that serif fonts are better to
>use for text, while sans serif fonts should be used for titles, headings,
>bulleted lists, etc. The theory is that the serifs (those tiny lines at the
>bottom of letters on serif fonts--check out Times New Roman for an
>example) help the reader to guide his / her eyes across the line of text.
>They form sort of a "border" between one line and the next, and thus
>should be used when there is a large block of text on the page. That's
>why you'll see novels (and most other books), newspapers, and
>magazines printed in some kind of serif font. 
>
>I, for one, find it easier to read serif fonts, and was hoping IG would've
>taken some of the latest design research into account when typesetting
>T4. Oh well. I'm sure that most people don't notice it.

        Interesting research ... I find just the opposite is true for
myself. I dislike serif text fonts. I use "Souvienne" (serif) for all my
headings and either Arial or Eurostile for my text because it's much easier
to read and more visually appealing to me.

        But then I've always been different ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #356

At 01:52 pm 8/29/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> as well as equipment and
>> starship lists [and design procedures beyond QSDS or SSDS... do I hear FF&S
>> 2?]), 
>
>I _thought_ that buzz was the sound of one shipyard building ;) Zen FF&S.
Hmmm...

        I'll be coordinating the Naval Architect's Handbook again, starting
some time next week (I've got about a bazillion pages of notes right now I
need to sort out). Look for a synopsis on the GDW-Beta List
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

At 09:55 am 8/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I have bee lurking for a couple of week to get the feel of the group. 
> Several questions and comments arise.
>
>First, I got my copy of T4 yesterday.  I kinda like the new ship 
>looks, but the lab ship now looks like a racer instead of research 
>vessel.  Some of the ships just need that bukly look.
>
>Is there a FAQ for either this maillist or for painting miniatures.  I 
>figured this would keep me & any other newcomers from stepping on 
>people's toes.

        James Dempsey's page has a FAQ; I've got a section on painting
miniatures. Since I don't have his URL handy right now, just go to my
Traveller section, and look in the part labelled "Elsewhere." Painting is
under "Artwork."
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

At 09:22 pm 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         Thruster plates work out to several thousand AU basically
>> unaffected, at which point some quantum tetrionic mumble mumble mumble
>> effect sets in, and thrust drops by a factor of a hundred or so.
>
>What does this mean to the TNE concept of Deep Space Calibration Points? 
> Are they still feasable?

        Sure. Mount an auxiliary HEPlaR or fusion drive if you want to move
around quickly when you get to the calibration point. Otherwise, just
accelerate real slow.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #358
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 30 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 359

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
         2. T4 in Atlanta
         3. Re: T4 Availability & first impressions
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
         5. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
         6. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
         7. Re: T4 in Atlanta
         8. Re: T4 Thoughts
         9. Robot Heat (was Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures)
        10. Joe Walsh's multiple T4s
        11. T4 Combat
        12. T4 appraisal, Part 1
        13. fonts
        14. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        15. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        16. SolSec:  Protector of our Sacred Culture
        17. Re: Too many topics to comment on...
        18. RE: T4 Availability & first impressions
        19. Helios BARD
        20. Whither Mesons?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

At 11:44 am 8/29/96 -0500, you wrote:

>The FAQ for this mailing list is at http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd
>Dave Golden has some stuff about painting miniatures up on his site at:
>http://www.usa.net/~goldenj/Traveller

 http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller!

>Well, there's really not a mailing list specifically and exclusively for 
>TNE...
>
>traveller@mpgn.com is for discussions of all forms of Traveller, while
>xboat@mpgn.com is for discussions of CT and MT.
>
>Whether the TNE afficianados will want to split off and make their own 
>list is unknown at this time. 

        NONONONONONONONONONO! Oops. Sorry.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Amnuss@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:23:31 -0400
Subject: T4 in Atlanta

Traveller 4 finally arrived it Atlanta yesterday.  Titan's Games & Comics has
it.

I've almost finished reading it and am excited about running a Traveller
campain again.  The only thing I would have liked in the basic rules is the
detail of the entire sector.

Alan

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:43:57 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Availability & first impressions

Matthew K. McLaughlin wrote:

>
>From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:32:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: T4 Availability & first impressions
>
>Boyd Schneider wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, they only got two copies, allegedly shipped without cellophane or
>> plastic covers.  The copies were covered with greasy fingerprints as were the
>> interior art.  Is this consistant with everyone your experience?  Or was he
>> lying about the cellophane cover?  I personally like for my fingerprints
>>to be
>> the first ones on stuff I purchase (I otherwise rag-out my gaming materials).
>>
>
>It sounds right.  Mine looked a bit the worse for wear, and had just
>come in that morning (yesterday)!  Moderately abused corners and misc.
>smudges on front, plus a mis-cut page.  I guess they went for a lower
>bid on the printing to keep the price down.  I figure that it'll make
>little difference after a year or two of wear.  Hopefully, the hardbacks
>will get a little more TLC.



        Strange... the one that I got from Valet D'Coeur up here in
Montreal was in mint condition and wrapped in virgin, intact plastic.
While I wouldn't put it past Valet to wrap their copies (they are a
brutally cool store), I'd finger the guys at your local gaming stores...

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:43:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351

Derek Stanley wrote:

>
>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:56:05 -0700
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #351
>
>Anders Backman wrote:
>
>>Very good. Get rid of grav thrust drops of to 10% after a few dims and
>>use gravthrust equals design gravthrust times local gravity. With this a
>>100 ton mass vehicle will always need 100 ton gravthrust or more to
>>float/levitate, no matter the local grav. I've used this in my campaign
>>for close to 5 years and it makes for interesting spacefights when
>>gravthrusted lowtech fighters zip close to planet surfaces to get extra
>>thrust. Also, hitech gravthruster missiles are really dangerous because
>>they're pretty hard to see without thrustflames et c.
>
>Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few
>questions reguarding their use.
>
>1)  In order to funtion corretly they need a gravity well of some kind to
>"push off" of, Right?


        I'd think so...


>
>2)  The weaker the gravity well, ie the further out in a system you are,
>the less effective these thrusters are, correct?


        Makes sense given 1), supra.


>
>3)  What's the theoretical cut off point for Grav-Plates?  ie.  Where do
>they crap out?  100 diameters?  1000 diameters?  And I'm assuming we're
>talking planetary diameters here not stellar diameteres.


        I would think that any gravitational field would do; gravity wells
are gravity wells...  which brings me to a problem: if you're using
grav-based plates dependent on the strength of the local grav well for
their acceleration, assume you take off from say Earth heading for Pluto.
Since Earth's gravity well is deeper than Pluto's you're in a situation
where you get much more acceleration leaving than you do arriving.  This
would have a serious effect on your flight plan: turnaround would have to
be much closer to Earth than Pluto, as you'd build up a lot of speed
relative to Pluto while thrusting off of Earth that you couldn't counter in
Pluto's weaker gravity well.

        I kinda like non-grav T-plates better.


>
>4)  If a ship some how wound up in an asteroid field, very small bodies
>of rock, eg. the Kininur, how would a rescue team get in?  You'd think
>all these very small gravity feilds would play hell upon the Grav-plates
>mechanisms.


        "Thrust off" of the local sun's grav field?


>
>5)  Does the momentum you've accumulated using grav thrusters stick with
>you when the thrusters crap out?  ie. If you're travelling at 100 kps (I
>always do math with round numbers) heading away from a planet, you pass
>point "y" at which the Grav-Plates ceace to function correctly, do you
>maintatain your current vector you do you just sort of slow down and
>stop?


        When I come to one of these difficult spiritu..., er, physical
questions and I don't know where to turn, I always calm myself and find
guidance by asking myself: "What would Isaac Newton say?"

        I bet that Isaac would a) whack us all upside the head for being
cretins, b) immediately point out the flaws in the T-plate idea, c) lock
himself up in his study for a month and come out with a working T-plate
drive, and d) tell us that the momentum in your example would be conserved;
unless the ship met something to rob it of its momentum, it'd just keep on
going..:)


>
>6)  If a ship miss-jumps into deep space, you're stuck right?  Assuming
>you don't have the fuel to get back into J-Space, you're doomed to spend
>an eternity floating about the void without any propulsion to at least
>point you in the right direction.


        I think that "stuck" is a profound understatement, although it does
rhyme with a better way of describing the situation :).


>
>Thanks
>Derek Stanley

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:08:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

On Aug 29, 1996 09:55:39, 'Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>' wrote:

 
>Since there is the mail list for CT & MT and also one for TNE, which  
>will T4 fall into?  It would be more logical to me for it to be in CT  
>& MT since it seems (at first glance) to be more like these than TNE. 
> 
 
A little more specifically than the other answers you've 
gotten: 
 
the Traveller list (traveller@mpgn.com) is for Traveller 
in all forms, eras, rulesets, etc. 
 
the Xboat list (xboat@mpgn.com) is the list that branched 
off after TNE came out, since a not-insubstantial portion 
of the Traveller audience just couldn't abide TNE,  
so X-boat was reserved for CT/MT only discussion. 
 
Since the coming of T4, most of the reasons for the 
split have fallen by the wayside, and, in fact,  
message volume on Xboat is almost nothing. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:13:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> >http://www.usa.net/~goldenj/Traveller
> 
>  http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller!

Woops!  I'm sorry about dropping the "d," Dave. :(


> >Whether the TNE afficianados will want to split off and make their own 
> >list is unknown at this time. 
> 
>         NONONONONONONONONONO! Oops. Sorry.

hehehe.  Hey, I'd like nothing more than a completely unified Traveller 
fan base.  Get rid of Xboat!  Let's learn to live together.

Let's make Traveller the RPG of "inclusion." :P 

[For those not familiar with current American politics (lucky you!), both 
of our major political parties are claiming to be the "party of 
inclusion," while being /very/ selective in what their members are 
allowed to say on certain topics the party leaders have very strong 
opinions about.]

I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:15:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 in Atlanta

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 Amnuss@aol.com wrote:

> I've almost finished reading it and am excited about running a Traveller
> campain again.  The only thing I would have liked in the basic rules is the
> detail of the entire sector.


Howdy,

You don't like the idea of each group making up its own planetary/system 
details?  I rather like the idea myself.  The less "canon" the better 
when it comes to such things, IMO.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:28:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, That Computer Guy wrote:

[Snipple, the new beverage from PepsiCo!]
> I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
> fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
> the controlling attribute.  Good examples of tasks systems that do this
> (and also just happen to be my favorites) are:  the task systems for
> MegaTraveller, CORPS, and Heavy Gear.  In all of these, the controlling
> attribute is used at a fraction of it's level (MT and CORPS), or as a
> die modifier (HG).

I can definitely see where you're coming from here.  When I first found 
out about the task system, I thought..."Wow!  That is so cool!  Get rid 
of the 3+/8+/11+/15+ progression, use the stat as a basis, and vary the 
dice!  How elegant!"

But once I started playing around with it, I got a bit discouraged.  
"Geez, my guy with Survey-6 and Edu of 8 has the same chance of success 
as this other PC with Survey-2 and Edu of 12!  Arrghh!  Doesn't all 
that experience count for anything??"

Then I realized the implications of this system.  What IG has surmised is 
that someone who has a relatively high characteristic that is relevant to 
the task will benefit /more/ from the same amount of training and 
experience than someone who has a lower characteristic score.  Further, they 
decided that the characteristic was more important than the training /if 
the person had at least some training/.  

Example:  Stephanie and Vanna grew up together, attended the 
same high school, and enjoyed the same things.  After graduating, 
Stephanie went on to earn a Ph.D. in Physics (high Edu, high skill in 
Physics), while Vanna passed up higher education in favor of earning a 
decent paycheck right away (moderate Edu). 
Now, if you teach each of these folks the equivalent of Survey-1 (which 
uses as its basis Edu), who is more likely to excel at actually doing a 
survey?  Presumably, Stephanie has a broader base of knowledge because of 
her extra years in the educational system.  This should confer quite an 
advantage when determining "the precise characteristics of an unknown or 
unclassified world." [T4, p 47]

At least, that is how I have come to rationalize it. :)

Comments?


> Also, what do people think of the experience system?  Some players I was
> talking to aren't sure if they're too thrilled with the idea of gambling
> experience away to some dice rolls.

Hmmm.  I can see some players not liking it.  On the other hand, my CT 
players (back in CA, years ago) liked not having to worry about skill 
increases and experience at all.  After D&D's heavy emphasis on 
experience points for killing things, it was quite refreshing, and freed 
us up to explore other pursuits besides bashing monsters.

Personally, I prefer the T4 system.  But then, I posted a system here 
that was quite similar to it several months ago, so I'm biased. :)
 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 30 Aug 1996 03:44:25 GMT
Subject: Robot Heat (was Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures)

>> And then there's the robots emitting several kilowatts of
>> heat.
>
>Only if designed badly. It shouldn't take *that* much power. Of course,
>there are these problems with folks who don't realize that metals are a
>lot weaker than multi-phase composite naterials... like bone... :-)

Both true.  While _real_ robots won't emit that kind of heat, Traveller
robots (ie. robots designed using the Traveller rules) do require that much
power.

In Book 8: Robots, for example, there's a pseudo-biological robot that uses
60kW - this robot could heat my house in a Canadian winter!

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:59:45 -0700
Subject: Joe Walsh's multiple T4s

Joe Walsh said, among other things:

>Now that I have so many copies of T4, I should probably use a highlighter 
>to indicate the typos and such, then send it to IG. :)

Good idea!  Then you have an excuse to buy another copy!  Or two!  Or THREE,
even! }8)

Seriously, I'm so glad you are picking up the slack on multiple purchases of
the new game.  I *tried* to explain to my wife why I needed so many copies,
but she just pointed out the several hundred pounds of Traveller material,
some of it dating back to 1977, currently residing in our apartment.

I got her to agree to one hardcover and one softcover.  Now I just have to
explain the small temple I'm building for my original black books and the
hardcover T4....



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 30 Aug 1996 03:51:01 GMT
Subject: T4 Combat

Quick question about T4 combat (still waiting for my hardcover)...

Has IG gone back to the CT "armour reduces chance to hit" or have they stuck
with the AHL/Striker/MT/TNE "armour resists penetration"?

Could someone manage a 10-15 line summary of T4 interpersonal combat?

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:03:11 -0500
Subject: T4 appraisal, Part 1

Well, I'm in the middle of chapter 6 right now, and I have a bit of time, so
here are some of my thoughts, as someone fairley new to role-playing (or
rather inexperienced).  Overall score is on a 1 (best) to 10 (worst) scale.

Color Art:  (Overall score: 5)
:) - Great pictures, incredible concepts, and action.
:( - Not what I'm used to, kinda cartoony, don't look utilitarian, and NO
        CAPTIONS!!!!

B&W Art:  (Overall score: 2)
:) - Very enlightening captions, good topics, nice artistry.
:( - What are those aliens? and kinda cartoony(equipment & vehicle).

History, Foundations, Chapter 1 (Role Playing):  (Overall score: 2)
:) - Excellent beginning, very informative.
:( - Does this mean I gotta take "Foundations" off my web page?

Chapter 2 (Char Gen):  (Overall Score: 5)
:) - Good ideas, good basic set.
:( - Errors, no updating of other rules' characters, EDU education term rules,
        and I want my CHR attribute back!!!!!

Chapter3 (Skills):  (Overall Score: 8)
:) - Desctiptions.
:( - Multiple potential attributes, errors & formatting.

Chapter 4 (Tasks):  (Overall Score: 4)
:) - Seems simple, easy opposed/uncertain/spectactular rules, I could get used
        to this.
:( - I DON'T LIKE .5D, not clear in places.

Chapter 5 (Ground Combat):  (Overall Score: 4)
:) - VERY SIMPLE.
:( - A bit confusing in places, I don't like range bands, I don't like unranged
        weapons!!!

Chapter 6 (Equipment):  (Overall Score: 1)
**********NOTE: Score for first three sections only!!!************
:) - Money/computers/food oh boy, nice "Poverty" write up, just enough detail.
:( - A bit confusing in the computer section (the rating equal to task idea).


OVERALL IMPRESSION:  (OVERALL SCORE: 3)
:) - This system is great for what it was designed for, the simple beginner.
:( - Errors, and confusing or sifficult parts.


Please let me know if you have any comments on what I've said, I like to
think at least some of you read my stuff.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: fonts

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>> Roderick Darroch Elliott:
>> > Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
>> > text is against my religion.
>> [Loren Wiseman:]
>> Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!
>
>At work there are standards for just about everything, and the standard 
>font is Ariel (which is pretty close to the fonts used for T4 and CT).  
>Sooo....we're 30 years behind the times in our standards, eh?  Doesn't 
>surprise me. :)

It depends on your industry, I guess.  I use Helvetica in my letterhead and
the text, which is too cutting-edge to be trendy yet among lawyers (many of
whom have never stopped using Times New Roman for letterhead and courier for
text -- to make letters look as typewritten as possible).

"Oh, you can tell that memo is from Makhidkarun.  They're still using that
ancient Helvetica font from the Interstellar Wars, when they use Galanglic
at all."

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 21:28:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

On 08/29/96 at 02:59 AM,  "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:

>Yes to both.  Thrusters work out to 2000-3000 AU (they get you to Uranus,
>but not to Neptune.  Thrusters are expensive and are not available until
>TL 11. 

Uh, not 2000-3000 AU.  It's more like 20-30 AU.  <g> 

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 21:46:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

On 08/29/96 at 06:58 AM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:

>Okay, I'd guess that grav thrusters would work out there,  I beleive from 
>watching "Bill Nye the Science guy"  Where they build a scale model of 
>the Solar System, where the sun was a 1 meter beach ball, that 1000 
>diameters is somewhere around Jupiter and 2000 is around Saturn.

Radii yes, but not diameters.

The Sun is ~1.4Mk in diameter.  Jupiter is 778Mk out so it's about 555
diameters from the Sun. Saturn is 1426Mk out, so it's just over 1000
diameters out from the sun.  Uranus is about 2000 diameters out and Neptune
is about 3000.

>>If you misjump further than 3000 AU unless you drift within 10 diameters
>>of a comet or a moon you are definitely SOL unless you have a HEPLAR 
>>drive too.

Are you guys refering to Solar diameters as AU's?  An Astronomical Unit
(AU) is the distance from the Sun to the Earth, 149Mk. If the cut off point
for thrusters is 3000 AU's then they are good *way* beyond Pluto..way,
*way* out into the Ooot belt.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SolSec:  Protector of our Sacred Culture

>From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>

>>You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...
>
>This would mean that the SciFi channel still exists in the Third Imperium?

Actually, the SciFi channel is discouraged in the Third Imperium (not
censored, because the Third Imperium makes no pretense of being able to
censor anything effectively), because it is a very popular educational
program broadcast throughout the Solomani Confederation.  

SolSec: Protecting our Television Heritage.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:47:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Too many topics to comment on...

On 25 Aug 96 at 3:58, owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPG spewed:

> - -Joe (Who won't feel comfortable running a T4 campaign until all
> the products scheduled for release this year are available.)

Personal opinion...  I probably won't be running a T4 campaign until 
the release of Milieu 0 in December...  although looking at the way 
the hardcovers are coming, should I say January... ;-)

> > Sorry 'bout the delay, I've been having to much of a real life
> > lately.  Which 

I keep telling you folks...

Reality is for people who can't handle Traveller... ;-)

> Here in NE IL, I understand the game won't be available until Monday
> or Tuesday ("Wednesday at the very latest," I was told by one
> store).  [Yeah, I'm gonna buy another softcover copy.  I've already
> trashed my first one, and I'd like a nicer softcover copy.  Yup,
> that'll make four copies sold to me, including the two MIA
> hardbacks.  IG must love me.[G]]

Apparently, its been here and sold out in a few of the stores, 
according to another Phoenix area person on TML...  

> You mean they still have yuppies thousands of years from now?!?!  I
> thought for sure the sub-species would have died out by then. :)

Naw...  yuppies are more difficult to kill than cockroaches...  No 
way to kill them...  short of nuking New England...

Oh wait... that's preppies...

Stu...

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 17:14:58 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Availability & first impressions

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote...

        Strange... the one that I got from Valet D'Coeur up here in
Montreal was in mint condition and wrapped in virgin, intact plastic.

When I get my hardback copy of T4, I won't even open the book to read Marc's 
signature...  I'll just have it encased immediately in liquid plastic to 
preserve it forever...

						---Boyd	;-)

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 01:44:58 EDT
Subject: Helios BARD

If no-one else has gotten around to saying it, Well Done that Man! Nice post,
good quality stuff. Usable for everyone.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 01:45:00 EDT
Subject: Whither Mesons?

>> > 	- Why do ships have particle accelerators and meson guns ?  > 	 Even the
small tl15 accelerator displaces 87 tons, enough > 	  to have a devasting
laser batterie. Meson guns have a very > 	 short range, and a meson screen
is cheap. <<

Because before TNE cocked around with "reality", a meson gun was much more
powerful than a scuzzy laser. And most of the ships were retained into TNE, even
though this and other things made it apparent that the rules describe a
different reality. <gibber> I apologise if I'm bringing up old wounds. Don't
start an argument. Sorrry.

HWF


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #359
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 30 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 360

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Missiles
         2. Zhodani consp
         3. RE: T4 Thoughts 
         4. Re: T4 Availability & first impressions
         5. Astrological Units and the Solar System
         6. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
        10. Marine Officers
        11. Bad Subject Lines
        12. Re: TNE: Vacc Suits and ArmoUr (sic)
        13. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        14. D'ohh!!!
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
        16. T4 Miniatures
        17. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        18. Re: T4 Thoughts
        19. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        20. Re: T4 in Atlanta
        21. Re: Missiles
        22. Ship design

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 01:45:02 EDT
Subject: Missiles

>> Not to drag out interminable gdw-beta discussions into the harsh light of the
TML...but I should also note that impact-type missiles are a lot easier to shoot
down than detonation lasers. The net result is that you end up with large swarms
of missiles trying to overwhelm point defense systems, with the missiles so
deadly that a single hit kills a player-sized spacecraft...a very different
flavour than canonical combat. <<

I always figured that A missile against A laser PD emplacement wouldn't have a
chance. The reason hits get through are swarms of missiles coming in very very
fast, overwhelming the fire rate of the PD hardware. Stuck in CT mode, I
suppose. <g>

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 01:45:10 EDT
Subject: Zhodani consp

>> Russell H Wright <ruwright@InfoAve.Net>

Also, I'd love to get a copy of the computer game "The Zhodani Conspiracy" if
anyone has a copy they'd part with. <<

I picked the CD up at a computer fair for a fiver. There's no manual, but the
security check asks things like "what's the PEN of a rifle?" so it's possible to
start it.

If you can figger out a way for me to get it to you, you're welcome to a copy.

HWF


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:38:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Thoughts 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21: 28:05 CDT
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:38:00 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, That Computer Guy wrote:
: 
: [Snipple, the new beverage from PepsiCo!]
: > I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
: > fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
: > the controlling attribute.  Good examples of tasks systems that do this
: 
: I can definitely see where you're coming from here.  When I first found 
: 
: Example:  Stephanie and Vanna grew up together, attended the 
: same high school, and enjoyed the same things.  After graduating, 
: Stephanie went on to earn a Ph.D. in Physics (high Edu, high skill in 
: Physics), while Vanna passed up higher education in favor of earning a 
: decent paycheck right away (moderate Edu). 
: Now, if you teach each of these folks the equivalent of Survey-1 (which 
: uses as its basis Edu), who is more likely to excel at actually doing a 
: survey?  Presumably, Stephanie has a broader base of knowledge because of 
: her extra years in the educational system.  This should confer quite an 
: advantage when determining "the precise characteristics of an unknown or 
: unclassified world." [T4, p 47]

But the greater your skill level, the more knowledge you suppossedly
have in a subject.  Assume that Steph has EDU 12 and Vanna 9.  Under MT,
Steph has +2 to the skill roll and Vanna only a +1.  So, the advantage
of a greater education while having the same level of training is
present.

However, let's say that Steph has EDU 12 and Survey 1 while Vanna has
EDU 9 and Survey 3.  Under MT, Steph has +3 DM (+2 EDU +1 skill), while
Vanna has +4 (+1 EDU +3 skill).  Vanna wins out because she has more
training in the task at hand (even a rocket scientist can't know
everything about anything).  However, under T3 (and TNE), Steph as a
target roll of 13, while Vanna has only 12.  So, in this case there is
no benefit to knowing more about the job at hand.

So, even though Steph may have a broader base of knowledge, she is still
better than Vanna who has specialized in a particular field and
understands that field's nuances.

Maybe I should just get to bed and realize that this is only a game.
Worse comes to worse, I can always just get around to that CORPS
conversion of Traveller of been meaning to finish up all summer.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 06:12:04 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Availability & first impressions

My pb copy came from The Game Parlour, in Chantilly, VA, on 8/23, and was
pristine.  It was plastic wrapped (I think the shop does that themselves
because even their magazines are plastic wrapped!) and had no dings,
fingerprints, or anything else...  The Eagle and Empire, in Mt. Vernon, VA,
also got it in on 8/23 and their copies looked good, too... - Bill

At 07:49 PM 8/28/96 EST, you wrote:
>Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> 
>> Anyway, they only got two copies, allegedly shipped without cellophane or
>> plastic covers.  The copies were covered with greasy fingerprints as were the
>> interior art.  Is this consistant with everyone your experience?  Or was he
>> lying about the cellophane cover?  I personally like for my fingerprints
to be
>> the first ones on stuff I purchase (I otherwise rag-out my gaming materials).
>>
>
>It sounds right.  Mine looked a bit the worse for wear, and had just
>come in that morning (yesterday)!  Moderately abused corners and misc.
>smudges on front, plus a mis-cut page.  I guess they went for a lower
>bid on the printing to keep the price down.  I figure that it'll make
>little difference after a year or two of wear.  Hopefully, the hardbacks
>will get a little more TLC.
>
>> 
>> BTW: I got both copies...(nyaah, nyaah)   <grin>
>
>Yep, I got the only one, and the same day it came in.  Hopefully he'll
>take the hint.  Gotta get back and start bugging him about JTAS.  Does
>anyone know if IG's distributing that through retailers?
>
>> 
>>                                 ---Boyd
>
>	Matt McL
>
>


------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:30:31 +0100
Subject: Astrological Units and the Solar System

Hi all,

Um, before I ask my question, first a quickie intro.  I'm a computer
systems geek who works for a UK oil exploration company.  Last game of
Trav was about 15 plus years ago (dont even *know* what Mega Trav and
TNE are :-).  Read about T4 in last month's Arcane mag and said to
myself "Yum yum yum" (I'm strange like that :-) - So I've ordered a hard
back copy from IG and got myself on this list.  Intro over.

Here's a set of reasonably Trav oriented questions for you educated
types out there.  I am trying to get my head back into astrological
units et.al. for when I start to referee again.

1. What is the precise speed of light?

2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
sun).

3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
in real life?

4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
hex?  If so, why?

Many thanks,

Pete "desperately trying to remember some CT basics" Blake.

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:10:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

>
>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>
>> >Whether the TNE afficianados will want to split off and make their own
>> >list is unknown at this time.
>>
>>         NONONONONONONONONONO! Oops. Sorry.
>
>hehehe.  Hey, I'd like nothing more than a completely unified Traveller
>fan base.  Get rid of Xboat!  Let's learn to live together.
>
>Let's make Traveller the RPG of "inclusion." :P

Traveller: The Big Tent roleplaying game. :-)

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:41:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

>From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
>Date: 30 Aug 96 01:44:58 EDT
>Subject: Helios BARD
>
>If no-one else has gotten around to saying it, Well Done that Man! Nice post,
>good quality stuff. Usable for everyone.
>
>HWF

Thanks, I just hope more than one person thinks so. :)


Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:41:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

>Let's make Traveller the RPG of "inclusion." :P 
>
>[For those not familiar with current American politics (lucky you!), both 
>of our major political parties are claiming to be the "party of 
>inclusion," while being /very/ selective in what their members are 
>allowed to say on certain topics the party leaders have very strong 
>opinions about.]
>
>I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
>found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
>government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
>ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
>drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...

How bout Imperial Scouts!  Or is that just a bit too presumtuous?


Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 30 Aug 1996 13:52:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

>You don't like the idea of each group making up its own planetary/system 
>details?  I rather like the idea myself.  The less "canon" the better 
>when it comes to such things, IMO.

A big problem with this is that an 'official' published adventure can
contradict what your group has created.  This leaves you either branching off
from the common universe, having a sudden reality shift, or otherwise coping.
 Bit more work, whatever you do.

------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Marine Officers

> 2) Your #3 is correct.
>
> >2. Do prospective Marine officers: (1) Attend NOTC/Naval Academy;
> >(2) Attend OTC/Military Academy; (3) Always start their Marine
> >careers as enlisted men (no college/academy option)?^?

If this is accurate, then that is a *change* from CT/MT.  In the earlier
versions, it was explicitly stated that prospective Marine officers attend
the Naval Academy.  (This is also how it's done in the US, which provides
the model for how the Imperial military services are organized in general
- -- yes, I know there are some departures, but it's overall closer to the
US model than to anyplace else.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:02:49 -0500
Subject: Bad Subject Lines

Oops, sorry about the last two messages I sent in.  I forgot to change the
Subject lines.  :(

Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE: Vacc Suits and ArmoUr (sic)

Thus spake Stephen Refeld <refeld@powerup.com.au>:

> Can battle dress with life support be used in a vacume (space)?

Yes, it can.  According to Fire, Fusion and Steel, battle dress is sealed 
against vacuum by default -- it includes environmental control 
automatically, and even has filter/respirator fittings for thin/tainted 
atmospheres.  Unfortunately, in an oxygen-poor environment (such as 
space), the wearer turns blue pretty quick.  You'll need a Portable Life 
Support System (PLSS) from the back section of the TNE rulebook to be 
spaceworthy in battle dress.  Previous (MT) canon stipulated that battle 
dress came with standard fittings for PLSSs, and my TNE powered armor 
designs have included them within their storage volume, so that the 
wearer's precious oxygen is also protected.

> How do you design Vacc suits in TNE?

If the selection in the TNE rulebook is insufficient, I suppose that you 
would use the FF&S armor rules to design a flexible or semi-rigid suit, 
add environmental control to seal it, and then either design a visored 
(sealed) helmet to go with it or borrow one of the vacc suit helmets from 
the TNE rulebook, along with some other handy items, such as the self- 
sealing option.

> To what minimum pressures are Hostile Env Suits and combat armour useable?

Hostile Environment suits?  If you mean Hostile Environment VACC suits, 
then the minimum usable pressure would be, umm... vacuum?  As for combat 
armor, "it depends," mostly on whether there's environment control, a 
sealed helmet, and a PLSS available.  Combat Armor, per se, is similar to 
battle dress, except that it lacks the strength enhancements and other 
electronic goodies -- you have to carry it instead of the other way around.

> Can a Vacume belt (TNEp337) be used to augmet these?

I dunno.  What is a vacuum belt?

> The various rules RCES, FFS, and TNE are not clear on these points.

Sometimes, in order to get a usable answer, you need to ask a sensible 
question.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 00:02:55 
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

Hello Pete, on Aug 30 you wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Um, before I ask my question, first a quickie intro.  I'm a computer
> systems geek who works for a UK oil exploration company.  Last game of
> Trav was about 15 plus years ago (dont even *know* what Mega Trav and
> TNE are :-).  Read about T4 in last month's Arcane mag and said to
> myself "Yum yum yum" (I'm strange like that :-) - So I've ordered a hard
> back copy from IG and got myself on this list.  Intro over.
>
  Great to see someone returning to the fold. :-) I hope you enjoy the
T4 book and get a chance to play it.

> 1. What is the precise speed of light?
>
  2.99792458 x 10^8 m/s (in vacuum)

> 2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
> distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
> sun).
>
  Here are the mean distances, of course the orbits are not circular, so the
distances vary a fair bit, particularly Pluto.

  Earth to moon: 3.82 x 10^8 m

  Sun to Mercury:   57.9 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Venus:    108 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Earth:    150 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Mars:     228 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Jupiter:  778 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Saturn:  1430 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Uranus:  2870 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Neptune: 4500 x 10^6 Km
  Sun to Pluto:   5900 x 10^6 Km


> 3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
> in real life?
>
  An AU is the distance from Earth to the Sun. It is used in real life, but
I am not sure how much. I guess it is a lot more meaningful for comparisons
than looking at figures in the millions.

> 4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?
  Yes.

> why is this so significant?
>
  Well, you asked - It is "the distance at which 1AU would subtend an angle
of 1 second of arc." or "The distance at which a star would show a parallax
of 1 second of arc". I think it is mostly a pretty convenient measure of a 
very large distance. As well as being the standard size of a stellar hex, it,
apparently, is more often used than Light Years by astronomers too.

> Many thanks,
>
  No problems for me, you have just allowed me to justify my little used
physics textbook's existance for another couple of years! :-)

Enjoy,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: D'ohh!!!

Stephen Refeld <refeld@powerup.com.au> asked the following question:

[snip]

> Can a Vacume belt (TNEp337) be used to augmet these?

To which, I replied:

> I dunno.  What is a vacuum belt?

There it is, in the bottom line of the Body Pressure Suit table at the 
bottom, right corner of page 337 of the TNE rulebook.  "Vacuum Belt."  
The devil's in the details, ennit?

Since somebody's already explained what a Vacuum Belt is and answered Mr. 
Refeld's question regarding them, I'm not going to duplicate effort.  Any 
flames sent to me for my misdirected correction will be quietly and 
politely redirected to a null device.  I've already kicked myself enough 
for all of you.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:27:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

On 30 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >You don't like the idea of each group making up its own planetary/system 
> >details?  I rather like the idea myself.  The less "canon" the better 
> >when it comes to such things, IMO.
> 
> A big problem with this is that an 'official' published adventure can
> contradict what your group has created.  This leaves you either branching off
> from the common universe, having a sudden reality shift, or otherwise coping.
>  Bit more work, whatever you do.

Very true.  The reason that doesn't conern me is that I only very rarely 
run published adventures. :)  But you're right, for those who do, they'll 
have to do some changing.

Then again, perhaps the new published adventures will not give all the 
details of the world it takes place on.  For instance, they might give 
the name of the world, the UPP, and of course details about the world - 
but not the location of the world.  Then the individual referee could 
place the adventure on whichever undetailed world he wishes.  That way 
there would be less chance for conflict between published and individual 
universes.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:56:44 -0400
Subject: T4 Miniatures

What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...  You can easily
model a 15mm Scout; in 25mm it becomes daunting.  Rousting the local
constabulary (in my case, a bunch of 15mm French Foriegn Legion figures from
Stone Mountain) can be done on a dining room table in 15mm; it requires the
game table in the basement in 25mm.  What think the rest of you? -Bill

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:36:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 08/29/96 at 02:59 AM,  "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:
> 
>>Yes to both.  Thrusters work out to 2000-3000 AU (they get you to 
>>Uranus, but not to Neptune.  Thrusters are expensive and are not 
>>available until TL 11.
> 
> Uh, not 2000-3000 AU.  It's more like 20-30 AU.  <g>

I think that's supposed to read Diameters not AU.  At that kind of AU 
you'd be way beyond the edges of our system.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:28:35 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

<---- Begin Included Message ---->
< BIG SNIP >

> Also, what do people think of the experience system?  Some players I was
> talking to aren't sure if they're too thrilled with the idea of gambling
> experience away to some dice rolls.

Hmmm.  I can see some players not liking it.  On the other hand, my CT 
players (back in CA, years ago) liked not having to worry about skill 
increases and experience at all.  After D&D's heavy emphasis on 
experience points for killing things, it was quite refreshing, and freed 
us up to explore other pursuits besides bashing monsters.

Personally, I prefer the T4 system.  But then, I posted a system here 
that was quite similar to it several months ago, so I'm biased. :)
 

*************** MSG Start **********************

Perhaps for an experience system we could use something along the lines of 
Chaosiums where you check a skill that you used during a game and roll to see 
if you've improved at the end of the adventure.  It's also setup so the more 
skill you have the harder the roll is (ie if you have an 85% Sneak, you have 
to roll OVER 85%, etc.) I don't know what kind of increment you could use 
since after 5 adventures you could - potentially - go up 5.  Maybe a tenth of 
a point for slow progression or a quarter point if you want faster 
advancement.  

I welcome comments - constructive please :) - on this.  Anyone?

Matt-man

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:40:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 08/29/96 at 06:58 AM,  Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> said:
> 
>>Okay, I'd guess that grav thrusters would work out there,  I beleive 
>>from watching "Bill Nye the Science guy"  Where they build a scale 
>>model of the Solar System, where the sun was a 1 meter beach ball, that 
>>1000 diameters is somewhere around Jupiter and 2000 is around Saturn.
> 
>Radii yes, but not diameters.
> 
>The Sun is ~1.4Mk in diameter.  Jupiter is 778Mk out so it's about 555
>diameters from the Sun. Saturn is 1426Mk out, so it's just over 1000
>diameters out from the sun.  Uranus is about 2000 diameters out and 
>Neptune is about 3000.

Thank you for that clarification.  I was uncertian as to how far out 2000 
diameters was...
 
>>>If you misjump further than 3000 AU unless you drift within 10 
>>>diameters of a comet or a moon you are definitely SOL unless you have 
>>>a HEPLAR drive too.
> 
>Are you guys refering to Solar diameters as AU's?  An Astronomical Unit
>(AU) is the distance from the Sun to the Earth, 149Mk. If the cut off 
>point for thrusters is 3000 AU's then they are good *way* beyond 
>Pluto..way *way* out into the Ooot belt.

Not me...  I know what an AU is and I'd never confuse the two.   Well 
unless I was writing at about 2:00 and had just drunk 3 or 4 six packs... 
I understood what was being said even if the term was wrong.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:04:54 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 in Atlanta

At 10:14 PM 8/29/96 EST, you wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 Amnuss@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I've almost finished reading it and am excited about running a Traveller
>> campain again.  The only thing I would have liked in the basic rules is the
>> detail of the entire sector.
>
>
>Howdy,
>
>You don't like the idea of each group making up its own planetary/system 
>details?  I rather like the idea myself.  The less "canon" the better 
>when it comes to such things, IMO.
>
>
>-Joe
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>
>
>
>
I agree, but for central or well known locations, pregenerated sectors
would, to me, make sense, just for commonality - as part of the whole idea
of playing in the same mileau (sp?), so if I, say, move to Rome NY and fall
in with the group there, Deneb is still Deneb...  There are lots of
sectors/subsectors/systems not on the beaten path whose details should
(again IMO) be left to each group to detail... - Bill

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:48:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Missiles

Hugh Foster wrote:

>I always figured that A missile against A laser PD emplacement wouldn't 
>have a chance. The reason hits get through are swarms of missiles coming 
>in very very fast, overwhelming the fire rate of the PD hardware. Stuck 
>in CT mode, I suppose. <g>

I always figured that the odds of a missle fired from x distance way at a 
fast moving target in 0 gravity even finding its mark in the first place 
were so remote that detonation lasers were the only way to go.

Derek Stanley
They call it space because there's lots off it.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:13:34 -0400
Subject: Ship design

        Here's the first ship I designed using the version of QSDS in the
new TRAVELLER rules. I was attempting to recreate a Pirate Corsair that
appeared in an issue of HIGH PASSAGE. It differs in some respects, but the
essentials are there.
I envision this as a civilian ship that got hijacked and transformed into a
pirate ship at some secret facility operated by a ring of pirates infesting
the outer fringe of the Imperium in Year 0 (which is, of course, much
smaller than it will later become.) I'm sure I made some errors here and
there. I will say that the lack of rules for figuring out how much INTERNAL
space a vehicle takes up is a bit annoying. ALSO, I found no clear rules or
explanation regarding ship's computers as to size, capacity, what have you.
Are these subsumed into the volume/price of Controls? (That is what I'm
assuming until I hear differently.)

IRON FIST CLASS CORSAIR

Tons: 400

Volume: 5,600 cubic meters

Cost: 98.25 (73.7 shipyard cost; this would be for one built from the ground up)

Crew: 11

High Passengers: 0

Medium Passengers: 0

Low Passengers: 20 (in 5 Emergency Low Berths, used mainly for captives)

Cargo: 170.3 tons

Controls: TL 11 Std /Bridge

TL: 11

Size Rating: 9

Jump: 2

Fire Control: 0

G Rating: 3

Power Plant Rating: 2.5

Fuel: 118.4 S

Sensor Rating: A1 P2 J0

Armor: 10

Structure: 12

Batteries: 3 Lasers 2-0-0-0

Notes: Ship is Needle A configuration. To save cargo space for booty, no
fuel purification plant is included. (This is actually because I forgot it.
It's further evidence of a secret support facility, I suppose.) The ship
carries a stolen G-Carrier for use as an assault vehicle.

        I have an adventure that goes along with this, designed to kick off
my Year 0 game. As soon as I've run it (because one of my players is on this
list) I'll post it. Hope I didn't screw up too badly. Improvements and other
suggestions are quite welcome.

Allen Shock



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #360
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 30 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 361

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 Combat Summary
         2. RE: T4 Thoughts 
         3. Re: Marine Officers
         4. Re: T4 Thoughts
         5. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
         6. Re: T4 Thoughts
         7. Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply
         8. So you want to steal ideas?
         9. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        10. [none]
        11. RE: T4 Thoughts 
        12. Re: Various Topics on TD #355
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #354
        14. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        15. T4 (Now that I can comment)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:55:22 -0400
Subject: T4 Combat Summary

To Rob Prior:
   Trying to be succint as possible, I shall hit the highlights:
1]  The system is based largely on Classic Traveller, with range bands
representing 1.5m indoors and 15m outdoors, time scale of 6 seconds per
combat round.
2]   Actions allowable usually include a move and a fire, inless aimed fire
or going prone is performed.
3]   Armor works by subtracting its value from the damage (in dice) of the
weapon, for example, a laser rifle doing 7D of damage hits someone wearing a
rigid armor suit with a value of 3, a total of 4 dice of damage would be
done, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT....
4]    MAXIMUM damage that can be inflicted in a single attack is 3D (!).
 This was justified in the rules by stating that higher dice attacks tend to
simply blow through and out of the target (presumably without imparting an
optimal amount of energy as damage).   
      I sent email to the TML last week indicating (as IG vaguely indicates)
that exceptions to this MUST exist (i.e. in T4, the only listed exception is
shotguns.. 4D).
Other exceptions which should be addressed in the future include shaped
charges, flamethrowers, high energy weapons (plasma and fusion guns), and
disintegrators.  There are probably more, but the above weapons should
probably have no restriction due to the efficiency of their transfer of
energy to damage a target and/or their reliance on thermal rather than
kinetic energy (also remember for what little canon existed for
disintegrators, they cause an effect at a target and thus aren't dependent on
the velocity of a "projectile or bolt" and they IGNORE armor if you recall
the MT space combat tables).
5]  The weapons list only goes up to the basics (lasers)
6]  Distribution of damage and damage effects are per CT (i.e. the three
physical characteristics... if all three are reduced to zero, the target is
dead.)
7]  You can now fire for specific effects including doubling and tripling
damage (after armor reduction), note, this may exceed the 3D damage rule.
8]   Tactics pools as DMs that can be drawn on a nonreusable basis per
encounter.  Optional STR, DEX, and END pools as well for HTH (armed and
unarmed) combat.

In short, a refined CT with some twists that need one to bear in mind to
allow for exceptions, and some chrome.  Definitely playable, and can be built
upon (or, <<sigh>> tinkered with).






















                                                                      Charles

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:22:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Thoughts 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07: 28:35 PDT
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:22:29 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Perhaps for an experience system we could use something along the lines of 
: Chaosiums where you check a skill that you used during a game and roll to see
 
: if you've improved at the end of the adventure.  It's also setup so the more 
: skill you have the harder the roll is (ie if you have an 85% Sneak, you have 
: to roll OVER 85%, etc.) I don't know what kind of increment you could use 
: since after 5 adventures you could - potentially - go up 5.  Maybe a tenth of
 
: a point for slow progression or a quarter point if you want faster 
: advancement.  
: 
: I welcome comments - constructive please :) - on this.  Anyone?

This is what the T4 system is.  Well, you're given an experience point
or two or three (depends on the adventure) and then those points can be
used to grant a roll to see if you've improved the skill (that was used
during the adventure).  So, if you use three skills and you get one xp,
you choose which skill to get a die roll for.  Equal or over the skill
and you increase it, under it and you don't.  It would seem a little
fairer if you got to roll for all the skills you used.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 30 Aug 96 11:44:20 EDT
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

oh my lord. it's true. T4 is a different game from CT. 

I think I may faint.

;->

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 30 Aug 96 11:48:00 EDT
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

I like the Chaosium system as well for that; the 'i've got more points than
you' stuff arising within systems like (blech) D&D gets really tiresome. Kinda
like Pepsi Points, and you STILL don't get the AV-8B! ;->

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 30 Aug 96 11:55:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

actually(not to nab nits), but aren't we talking about 'astroNOMICAL units'? If
we were dealing with the other, wouldn't this be a matter of what Sign your
character was in relation to the nasty pirate-type who is trying to rob you of
life and liberty? 

but perhaps I digress....

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:

> Perhaps for an experience system we could use something along the lines of 
> Chaosiums where you check a skill that you used during a game and roll to see 
> if you've improved at the end of the adventure.  It's also setup so the more 
> skill you have the harder the roll is (ie if you have an 85% Sneak, you have 
> to roll OVER 85%, etc.) I don't know what kind of increment you could use 
> since after 5 adventures you could - potentially - go up 5.  Maybe a tenth of 
> a point for slow progression or a quarter point if you want faster 
> advancement.  
[> 
> I welcome comments - constructive please :) - on this.  Anyone?

Here's the system I posted a while back (keep in mind this was created 
with CT in mind, as T4 wasn't even announced at the time):

==================

                Dynamic Characters for Traveller

     The basic Traveller system provides very limited rules by
which characters may change over time.  Book 2 outlines some 
rules for character improvement, but it requires eight years of 
a character's life in order to permanently gain one skill level.  
That may be a realistic system, but it is not one which increases 
enjoyment of the game.
     The following is an additional system by which a character's 
skill set may evolve during the course of his adventures.  It
has been found to increase the excitement in adventures by
encouraging daring and risky acts on the part of player
characters.  This system provides rules for gaining, improving, and
degrading skills..  It is meant as an addition to the Book 2 rules, 
not as a replacement.


Gaining New Skills

     In order to gain a new skill, a character must successfully
resolve a situation that would require that skill during the
course of an adventure.  If this occurs, at the end of the
adventure the referee should allow the player to roll 11+ for a
skill gain, with a positive DM of 1/2 the value of a related skill
(round fractions down).  When more than one skill is related to
the skill to be gained, only the one at the highest level is
used.
     In the case of weapons skill, a successful roll will yield a
skill of 1.  In all other instances, a skill level of 0 will be
received.  In either case, subsequent skill increases can be
attained using the rules outlined below, or through the course of
study given in Book 2.
     It is suggested that Jack-of-all-Trades skill not be used as
a "related" skill, as the knowledge granted by J-o-T is not great
enough to aid in the gaining of a new skill.
     Example:  Jyond, an ex-marine who has no survival skill, has
just completed an adventure wherein he had to live off of the land
while stranded on an uncivilized world for an extended period.
While his skill of Hunting-3 helped to some degree by giving him
meat, he also had to find sources of water and edible vegetation.
Through good judgment and some luck, Jyond survived this
ordeal.
     After the adventure is over and Jyond has been rescued, the
referee allows Jyond's player to roll 11+ with a DM of +1 for his
Hunting skill (3/2 = 1.5, rounded down to 1).  The player rolls 4
and 6, plus the DM of 1, yielding 11.  Jyond now has Survival-0.


Improving Current Skills

     In order to increase the level of skill a character has, the
skill must be successfully used during the adventure in such a way
that it would cause the skill to be increased.  High-risk uses of
the skill as well as using it in original ways are both examples
of this.  For instance, repairing an ATV while under fire as the
enemy advances steadily closer (Mechanical skill); piloting an
air/raft through twisting ravines to avoid radar detection
(Air/Raft skill); using a revolver to fire at a cable, severing it
and dropping 10 tons of cargo on the enemy group are all valid
specific instances wherein skill may be increased.
     Typically, two conditions must be met: first, the task must
be relatively difficult; second, success must have a great impact
on the adventure.  In the example above, the referee might have
imposed a DM of -4 to the roll for hitting the cable by firing the
revolver.  Assuming the character has a skill of Revolver-2, this
would require a roll of 10 or more on two dice for success.  This
is hardly a roll on which to pin the hopes of a band of
adventurers!  But, if all goes well, the adventurers will have
gained a significant advantage.
     The roll for increasing a skill is 7+, with a negative DM of
the current skill level.  In our example above, the player would
have to roll 9 or more on two dice to increase his Revolver skill
level to 3.  As you can see, this system does not allow for skill
increases beyond level 6.  If a character wishes to gain higher
skill levels, he or she must follow the rules outlined in Book 2.


Skill Degradation

     Unless a character is one of those rare individuals with a 
near-eidetic memory, skills which are not used will degrade.  
If a skill is not used at all within 180 game days, the character 
will lose one level of that skill (although the skill level will 
never fall below 0).  
     A single routine use of the skill during an adventure 
each 180 game days will keep the character from losing any skill 
levels.  If such usage is impossible for the character, then skill
degradation may still be avoided by engaging in one hour of non-
adventure use of the skill per skill level.  For example, a character
with Electronics-3 must engage in three hours of non-adventure 
skill  use each 180-day period or lose one skill level.   If the 
character has the time and materials necessary for exercise 
of the skill, then the player has only to inform the referee that 
his character will, from time to time, be undertaking skill 
maintenance activities.  But if, for whatever reason, the character 
is unable to complete the requisite number of hours of skill 
maintenance activities for a given 180-day period, then the 
skill level will be lost.
     If the process for a skill increase (as outlined in the 
previous section) is completed within a year of the date on 
which the skill level was lost, the result will be that the skill 
level will return to its earlier, pre-degrade level.  In addition, 
the player may roll an unmodified 7+ in order to gain an 
additional level.
     If such exceptional skill usage is not made within a 
year (including a successful die roll as outlined in the previous
section), the skill level is permanently lost, and can only be 
increased using the procedure outlined in the "Improving 
Current Skills" section, above.


Using the Dynamic Character System

     Referees and players should keep in mind that a character may
never have more skill levels than the sum of his intelligence and
education characteristics.  This puts a restraint on which skills
players attempt to improve or add.  Because of this, players
may of course choose not to attempt skill improvement or gain in
some instances.  The referee will determine whether the character
may gain a skill as a result of his actions, but the player
decides whether to use that opportunity.  Additionally, a player may
decide to let one or more of his character's skills degrade, which will
also make room for more skills or skill levels.
       Use of the above system, in conjunction with the system given
in Book 2 of the Traveller rules, will create a more dynamic and
exciting universe for the players and the referee.


Copyright (C) 1996, Joseph E. Walsh



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:14:04 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply

In mail you write:

>>You forgot the Incredible Hulk <g>...
>
>>This would mean that the SciFi channel still exists in the Third Imperium?
>
> All right, all right, enough Hulk bashing. He could be the reason some of
> those worlds are interdicted, you know. Imagine a race of Hulks running
> around on some barren world  :)
>
> Gee, that would be a truly evil thing to do to a group of players!

No, that'd merely be *evil*. To qualify as *incredibly* evil, they need
to find out that an interdicted world more or less corresponds to the
Earth found in the Marvel Universe. So it ain't just the Hulk. It's
also the FF, Avengers, X-Men, and all their enemies!

PC1 (upon seeing a flamboyantly dressed figure wearing a winged helmet
and carrying a crude hammer as a weapon): "Look at the stupid barbarian!"

NPC local (explaining things to other PCs as they stare at smoking hole
in ground where PC1 was standing): "That 'barbarian' is the god of
thunder, you idiots...."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:21:12 PST
Subject: So you want to steal ideas?

How about a pair of systems. One is a Type M star with an *extensive*
planetoid belt formed when the single habitable world was destroyed.
The world was of gas giant mass, but in the star's habitable zone (like
some of the newly discovered planets we've found). Apparently it was
massive enough that it was on the edge of having most of the core go
degenerate, and something managed to trigger the change, which released
enough energy to blast the planet into pieces.

The other system is a six parsecs away, but even so, it's the nearest
star to the one with the destroyed world. This system has a rather
normal type G star. And the mainworld is fairly Earth-like. It's been
settled by the survivors of the ruined planet. They have *very* high
tech, but due to the great distances involved, they'd not gone to the
stars until it became obvious that their planet was going to be
destroyed. They managed to build a couple of large ships with a highly
experimental jump-6 drive and get enough people and materials to the
new system to preserve their culture.

The G system is interdicted not only because of their high tech, but
because while humanoid, their native planet resulted in a race that has
some highly unusual abilities in a "normal" environment.

The M system is interdicted for several reasons. First of all, there
may be artifacts that survived the breakup of the planet. Next, there
is some worry that the survivors might take it amiss if they ever
caught folks poking about the remains of their old home (though oddly,
they don't seem to have visited it themselves other than a couple of
expeditions that returned to their new home rather hurriedly). And
finally, the remains seem to emit some odd radiations. They seem to be
harmless to humans, but no one is taking chances.

Oh yes, the natives called the destroyed planet "Krypton"...

:-)

(Gee why did the players all turn white as a sheet? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:20:35 PST
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

In mail you write:

>>I assume velocity is velocity and so once you leave the gravity well and
>>the grav-plates are useless you keep cruising along.  Any other answer
>>seems rather silly.
>
> This is a problem I've had because I vaguely remember a discussion about 
> these things that seemed to indicate they violate the law of conservation 
> of momentum in this requard.

It's rather more complicated. These things violate conservation laws
just by *operating* unless you have them work in ways that don't much
resemble the way folks expect them to work.

If you have them pushing on the nearest object, then the only way they
work is if the energy input is equal to the kinetic energy change
*relative to the object*. Thus, if it takes X amount of energy to
accelerate to 1 km/s, it takes *three times* as much to get to 2 km/s.
	Ke = m V^2/2
The mass of the vessel is constant. So at 1 km/s we have:
	X = m (1)^2/2
	X = m 1 /2
	X = .5m

At 2 km/s we have:
	X = m (2)^2/2
        X = m 4/2
        x = 2 m

So the difference is 1.5m, which is indeed 3 times the energy required
for 1 km/s.

So we get this (assuming a mass of 1):
	E = .5 m V^2

V	total E	delta E	adjusted
- ------	-------	-------	-------
0	0	0	0
1	.5	.5	1
2	2	1.5	3
3	4.5	2.5	5
4	8	3.5	7
5	12.5	4.5	9
6	18	5.5	11
7	24.5	6.5	13
8	32	7.5	15
9	40.5	8.5	17
10	50	9.5	19

Obviously high speeds are *very* impractical.

If we instead assume that you can somehow convert energy directly into
Kinetic energy things get equally interesting. You use the "energy
equals force times distance" rule. Which means that to accelerate at 1
gee for a distance of one meter will always take the same amount of
power! Trouble is, the distance goes up as the *square* of the time,
meaning that your power requirements go up likewise:

	V = A T
	D = .5 A T^2
	E = V D

T	V	D	E	delta E	adjusted
- ----	-----	----	-----	-------	--------
0	0	 0.0	0.0	0	0
1	1	 0.5	0.5	.5	1
2	2	 2	4	3.5	7
3	3	 4.5	13.5	9	18
4	4	 8	32	18.5	37
5	5	12.5	62.5	30.5	61
6	6	18	108	45.5	91
7	7	24.5	171.5	63.5	127
8	8	32	256	84.5	169
9	9	40.5	364.5	108.5	217
10	10	50	500	135.5	271

Sheesh! This is even *more* of a power hog!

Reaction drives don't have this problem, because what counts with them
is the *exhaust* velocity, which is always measured relative to the
*ship*. 

I'd really like to see some "thruster plates" that worked this way. It
would require the typical "handwaving" physics, but it wouldn't do
gross violence to the basics. And it'd make for some interesting
playing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:56:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Thoughts 

In Reply to Your Message of 30 Aug 1996 11: 48:00 EDT
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:29:01 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: I like the Chaosium system as well for that; the 'i've got more points than
: you' stuff arising within systems like (blech) D&D gets really tiresome. Kind
a
: like Pepsi Points, and you STILL don't get the AV-8B! ;->

True, but in most civilized games, you only get two or three points, and
they're used as standard awards for all the players.  Thus, everyone
gains the same experience.  Usually, my group will give out an extra
point to the people that roleplayed the best, but that's just us.

Lots of games are going this route now.


       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:52:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Various Topics on TD #355

On 28 Aug 96 at 19:34, owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPG spewed:

1.  ANTITRUST LAW...


> >If such did occur. GW would find themselves facing an anti-trust
> >suit rather quickly. You aren't allowed to "lock" the market that
> >way. 
> 
> Oh?  I'm certain the people in competition with Microsoft will be
> happy to hear this.
> 
> It may be technically illegal, but if you can drive your competition
> out of business (eg. NCR) or if the increased profits are more than
> the fine (eg. Microsoft) then it makes "sound business sense" to do
> it.
> 

I'm glad somebody else pointed this out...  In a perfectly just 
world, where everybody could hire the same quality legal team, this 
would probably be the case...  Unfortunately, as Microsloth, IBM, the 
NFL vs. USFL case, and others in recent years have shown, antitrust 
cases usually come down to who can hire the best battery of 
lawyers...  Usually, its the private company, not the 
government...and who do you think is going to have better lawyers:  
Games Workshop or Ma and Pa Kettle's local game store, that was 
barely in the black before GW moved into town...

On the other hand, the nature of a GW store that sold ONLY GW 
products wouldn't be all that successful IMHO...  More likely a GW 
store is only going to carry fast movers...  T$R, GW, White Wolf, 
Star Wars & Star Trek because of the license recognition, Magic: The Gathering 
of $$$$...  Little to no wargames, little to no other CCG's or RPG's...  Little 
companies just would find such a development to be 1 more barrier to entry...

Personal opinion:  Such a development is inevitable to a certain 
extent...  

Any lawyers on the list choose to kibbitz on this one???

2. NON CANONICAL ASLAN SKETCHES...

> From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:22:27 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: IG's new Aslan sketch
> 
> I agree. It not like any other picture we have seen of Aslan
> Warriors. It not what I pictured.

Finally got home to see this last night...

Not happy.  Too human like.  Definitely a human in a furry suit (and 
not to furry at that).  I don't mind a variation on the previous 
Keith Bros. themes, but this is way too space operatic for my taste.  
Much prefer the previous CT & MT drawings...

On the other hand this is a rough sketch, so let's hope somebody 
takes a few of the comments from here, and the finished product is a 
little different...

> 1.	FIRST REALLY GOOD GAME STORE
> 

Flying Buffalo Games operated a game store for years in Scottsdale, 
and later Tempe, before Rick Loomis decided to get out of the game 
retail business, and focus on the PBM games his company is more 
famous for...

Not only did I buy most of the wargames, and about 80% of my CT stuff 
from there, but you'd frequently run into members of FBG's staff 
there...  Liz Danforth (did a lot of the CT artwork), Mike Stackpole, 
and others...

The game store I frequent most here is Waterloo Adventure Games, in 
Gilbert, AZ...   The store is about the size of a small drug store, 
and stacked floor to ceiling with games, miniatures, RPG books, 
CCG's, including a TON of out of print and rare items.  The owner is 
knowledgable, and 1 of the few people in Phoenix who had as much 
information about the upcoming T4 release as I did...

It's about 20 miles away from where I live, but well worth the 
drive...

Stu

> 2.	PAINTING

> Joe, I use the chrome from the _Starship Operator's Manual_, that
> the ship has a "chameleon circuit". Then it's easy to justify bright
> colour schemes, because you say, "When you get into combat, you
> simply switch to black". Paint one miniature black and the other in
> your colur scheme of choice (didn't you buy up all of RAFM's stock??
> No wonder I can't get any!?! ;-).

Certainly this gives a convenient excuse to actually paint stuff in 
primary colors...  Wonder at what TL the "chameleon option" is 
available at...

OTOH, I have an aversion to painting SF & Fantasy miniatures in matte 
black anyways...

BTW, has anybody considered that by the time you have a ship in 
"visual range" in deep space, he's probably been close enough to fire 
several salvoes of missiles at you...  Remember, we're not talking 
about dogfighting aircraft here.  Typical space combat ranges are 
going to measure in the 100K's of miles range...

Not trying to provoke a flame, just thought I'd get a few comments...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 18:04 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #354

In-Reply-To: <9608281303.AA32396@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:00:48 +0100
Subject: Re: IG's new Aslan sketch

I was horrified by the new sketch of the 'Aslan Warrior' on IG's webpage 
- -
It looks like a human with make-up on. They should get W.H. Keith or Rob 
>>

I've just had a peek, and I totally agree. It's *horrible*.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:22:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

> Here's a set of reasonably Trav oriented questions for you educated
> types out there.  I am trying to get my head back into astrological
							 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
							astroNOMICAL

Sorry, what you asked for was astrology (we astro types are a tad
sensitive on the subject (a GF of mine was a dance major, man, I got
lots of "astrology" questions at theater parties, yeesh! :-))

> 1. What is the precise speed of light?

3.00 x 10^8 m/s  (yes, it's 299,xxx.xxx, but I don't remember :-)
 
> 2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
> distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
> sun).

I can look them all up for you, but it would be more useful for you
to check out a basic astronmy book.  A long time ago I was given a
book called the "Atlas of the solar system" by RAnd McNally.  It has
proved useful for giving people ideas about what different types of
worlds look like, as well as scale.

The moon's about 400,000km away (ballpark) as I recall.  I'm sure
there's a web page with all this in a table.  

> 3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
> in real life?
 
Yes.

> 4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
> why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
> hex?  If so, why?
 
It's a parallax measurment of distance.  Look at a star now, look at
it in 6 months, compare the difference in position.  You know the
size of our orbit, so you can triangulate the distance. The half
angle is actually used.  Something that has a half angle of 1 second
of arc of parallax is 3.26 ly away from us, so that's a parsec.

(correct me if I'm wrong, this is off the top of my head)

- -Merrick 

------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:02:12 -0800
Subject: T4 (Now that I can comment)

I can comment now in full guilt as I purchased one of the seven to hit
anchorage alaska. Two were gone before they had been in town a full day.

>I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
>fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
>the controlling attribute.  Good examples of tasks systems that do this
>(and also just happen to be my favorites) are:  the task systems for
>MegaTraveller, CORPS, and Heavy Gear.  In all of these, the controlling
>attribute is used at a fraction of it's level (MT and CORPS), or as a
>die modifier (HG).
>I'm pretty sure that Mr. Hostman will agree with me on this one.

Yes, and no... I think that there must be a ballance between skill and
attribute. I think that TNE was too much attribute, cause of the d20.
Pistol 6 on average guy in T4 is one helluva shot; he can make double
damage called  snapshots to short range, and screw up one in 36 times...

>Speaking of which, William, have you figured out the breakdown of
>exceptional success, etc with the new system yet?

not the numbers yet... have been too busy at work to crunch them. Give me
the weekend, chipmunk basic, and I'll have some numbers. crit succ is :

Task Diff       Crit Suc Chance         Note: T4 CS is totally without
1.5d            1/18    =5.55555%       any relationship to skill levels,
2d              1/36    =2.77777%       attribute levels, or modifiers.
2.5d            1/108   =0.92592%
3d              1/216   =0.46296%       Crit fails, although different,
3.5d            1/648   =0.15432%       also have no relation to skill or
4d              1/1296  =0.07716%       attribute leves, either.

>Also, what do people think of the experience system?  Some players I was
>talking to aren't sure if they're too thrilled with the idea of gambling
>experience away to some dice rolls.

I like it... it is a blend of sheer genius and realism. You see, since T4
experience must be spent IMMEDIATELY, and rolls are the ONLY thing it can
be spent upon, it works. The checking of skills when used tells what is
available. On my homegrown (25 skill lines) Character sheet, I've added a
check-box for experience purposes. The only hitch I see with the experience
system is that levels 0 and 1 both automatically raise when exp is thrown
at them. So, in my game, a one on an exp check will always fail.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #361
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 30 August 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 362

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 -> TNE Conversion?
         2. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
         3. Re: T4 Thoughts
         4. Re: "grav thrust"
         5. Norton PSI
         6. Bad-mouth Keith?
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360
         8. Task Systems
         9. Re: Astronomical Units and the Solar System
        10. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        11. RE: T4 Thoughts 
        12. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        13. Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters
        14. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        15. Re: Astro-Lord-Help-Us Units.
        16. Re: Aslan sketch
        17. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        18. Re: Task Systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:17:34 -0800
Subject: T4 -> TNE Conversion?

>My Quick & Dirty conversion scheme: Attributes retain the same values, but
>AGL=DEX and
>CON=END. Skills convert at TNE Level 1-3 = T4 level 1, TNE 4-6 = T4 Level
>2, and Levels
>7-10 in TNE = levels 4-6 in T4. I'm assuming that since a skill cannot be
>improved above
>6 in T4, then 6 is the ceiling on skills.

Wrong... the upper limit is 12, since there is a procedure for doing level
7+ skills. So, I'd simply convert by going straight across. No changes.
Then total skill levels up, and, if below (age-12), allow rolls on the T4
tables to catch up. Same with Mega or CT.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com





------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 12:43:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

On 08/30/96 at 12:30 PM,  Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk> said:

>Um, before I ask my question, first a quickie intro.  I'm a computer
>systems geek who works for a UK oil exploration company. 

I resemble the first half of that, but not the last.  <g> So we have
computer geekdom in common.

>Last game of Trav was about 15 plus years ago (dont even *know*
>what Mega Trav and TNE are :-).  Read about T4 in last month's
>Arcane mag and said to myself "Yum yum yum" (I'm strange like that
>:-) - So I've ordered a hard back copy from IG and got myself on
>this list.  Intro over.

More and more similarities!  <g> I bought and played MT and TNE, but the
old black books were always my favorite.  

>Here's a set of reasonably Trav oriented questions for you educated types
>out there.  I am trying to get my head back into astrological units et.al.
>for when I start to referee again.

Ooo!  Don't call 'em astrological units..not unless you're going to ask the
players "what's your sign?"  <g> You're referring to
astroNOMical units.

>1. What is the precise speed of light?

Precise!  David asks for precise!  <g> Sorry, but the best I can do without
looking things up is approximation.

Speed of light: 186,000mph or 300,000kph

>2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.: distance
>from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the sun).

>3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit in
>real life?

>4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
>why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
>hex?  If so, why?

Ok, definitions time! <g>

AU (Astronomical Unit) ~150million kilometers, is the distance from
    the Sun to the Earth.  AU is a convenient unit that is often
    used in astronomy when referring to distances within the solar
    system.  No *direct* game purpose.
    
ParSec (Parallax Second) ~3.26 (I use 3.25 <g>) light years.  I
    won't go into *why* a parsec is the distance it is, but just say
    it is a convenient measure of distance.  For game purposes, a
    parsec is the distance from the center of one subsector hex to
    the center of another, and the ~distance by which jumps are
    measured..in one interpretation of the rules anyway.
    
SD (Solar Diameter) The diameter of the Sun ~1.5million kilometers.
    This is a measure that *I* use in the game for several purposes.
    In Traveller, a ship should be 100 diameters (for safe
    operation) and 10 diameters (for moderately safe) from *any*
    large masses before engaging it's Jump Drive.  It just so
    happens that 100 Solar Diameters is about 1 AU.  <g>
    
Distances from Sun (Really Loose Approximations)

Mercury      .4AU
Venus        .7AU
Earth       1.0AU
Mars        1.5AU
Asteroids   2.5AU
Jupiter     5.0AU
Saturn     10.0AU
Uranus     20.0AU
Neptune    30.0AU
Pluto      40.0AU

And the Moon is 400,000km (240,000miles) from Earth.

    
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Graham Spearing <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:35:00 GMT
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

In your message dated Thursday 29, August 1996 Jerry wrote :

> I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
> fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
> the controlling attribute.

Yes agreed. The trend however definitely is headed toward attribute based skills 
with notable exceptions from older systems still used such as the Chaosium % 
system

> Good examples of tasks systems that do this
> (and also just happen to be my favorites) are:  the task systems for
> MegaTraveller, CORPS, and Heavy Gear.

I'm on a couple of groups at the moment, and you are the second person to rave 
about the Heavy Gear system. Somebody outlined it tom me and it sounded 
excellent. Would there be a seamless way of intigrating that task system with T4 
as a variant? I imagine characteristics would be a problem.

Er is that heresy? :-}

- -- 
Graham

------------------------------

From: dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov (David Summers)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:45:18 -0700
Subject: Re: "grav thrust"

rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott), Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:43:51 -0500
>Derek Stanley wrote:

>>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>>Though I'm still not keen on the return to Grav-plates I've got a few
>>questions reguarding their use.

>>3)  What's the theoretical cut off point for Grav-Plates?  ie.  Where do
>>they crap out?  100 diameters?  1000 diameters?  And I'm assuming we're
>>talking planetary diameters here not stellar diameteres.

>        I would think that any gravitational field would do; gravity wells
>are gravity wells...  which brings me to a problem: if you're using
>grav-based plates dependent on the strength of the local grav well for
>their acceleration, assume you take off from say Earth heading for Pluto.
>Since Earth's gravity well is deeper than Pluto's you're in a situation
>where you get much more acceleration leaving than you do arriving

The real problem is the time lag.  Gravitational effects propigate
at the speed of light and if you push off of a planet that is
a light hour away, then you are going to have a an hour lag
on your drive.
>
>        I kinda like non-grav T-plates better.

I kind of prefer generic reactionless thrusters.  I would have
them push in the direction they exhaust just because I find
thruster plated too sterile.

________________________
(Disclaimer: If NASA had any postion on any of this do you
think they would have ME give it?)
David Summers - DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov



------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 14:55:00 EDT
Subject: Norton PSI

>> Soon I'll post the Andre Norton derived Traveller Psi system I've been
working on. <<

Now this I'd like to see. Are you going to include Moon Singers? Yiktor's in the
Spinward if I remember....<g>

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Aug 96 14:55:04 EDT
Subject: Bad-mouth Keith?

>> Yep, the art is stunning. We've come a long from William Kieth's line
drawings, eh? <<

Hey, hey! I won't listen to people dissing the Keith brothers! For me and many,
their art still remains the definitive Aslan - and the main portrayal of
Traveller. The new stuff is gonna be good, judging by the web page - but for me
it doesn't replace the old.

BTW, what the hell is the Aslan illustrated on said web page doing with a bloody
_sword_?! Aslan don't use blade weapons - check the Traveller Digest with the
Kyusu adventure and the dagger. Artistic licence... Never mind, I'm sure I'll
enjoy my copy when it arrives :(


HWF


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360

>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:56:44 -0400
>Subject: T4 Miniatures
>
>What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
>15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
>switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
>ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...

I agree. I've still got a bunch of the old Citadel Miniatures. Maybe
somebody could buy the molds from Games Workshop. They were gorgious. I
hated having to play Striker with 25mms. And just THINK of all those old
15mm starship grids we had... (sigh)

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:05:31 -0700
Subject: Task Systems

Greetings, All.

I'm new to this list and I have been lurking about, the thread about task 
systems prompted me to ad my .02CR.

General Def's to ensure we're speaking the same language:

Attribute: General, natural aptitude and ability; difficult to improve upon.
Skill: Specific experience; gained through training, trail and error, etc.

In The Real World(tm) an ideal task system would mean that each person has far 
more than 6 measly attributes, and each task could depend upon several 
different attributes and skills. Traveller, being a game, needs a necessary 
abstraction and generalizes our many attributes into six, and keeps track of 
only those skills relevent to adventures in Far Future. (no Flower Arranging-6 
until we meet a race which navigates through space with a specialized Flower 
Arranging computer interface)

Now I don't have my T4 yet (aargh, the waiting is killing me) but from what I 
gather, the target roll is the addition of attribute and skill, and the number 
of dice you get to roll determines the difficulty. So, the question has been, 
does T4 give adequate relative weight to Attributes and Skills when determining 
the success of a task at hand?

Well, I would argue that weight given to attributes would depend upon the task 
which the character is trying to accomplish.

To use Joe Walsh and That Computer Guy's example:
> : Example:  Stephanie and Vanna grew up together, attended the
> : same high school, and enjoyed the same things.  After graduating,
> : Stephanie went on to earn a Ph.D. in Physics (high Edu, high skill in
> : Physics), while Vanna passed up higher education in favor of earning a
> : decent paycheck right away (moderate Edu).
> : Now, if you teach each of these folks the equivalent of Survey-1 (which
> : uses as its basis Edu), who is more likely to excel at actually doing a
> : survey?  Presumably, Stephanie has a broader base of knowledge because of
> : her extra years in the educational system.  This should confer quite an
> : advantage when determining "the precise characteristics of an unknown or
> : unclassified world." [T4, p 47]
> But the greater your skill level, the more knowledge you suppossedly
> have in a subject.  Assume that Steph has EDU 12 and Vanna 9.  Under MT,
> Steph has +2 to the skill roll and Vanna only a +1.  So, the advantage
> of a greater education while having the same level of training is
> present.
> 
> However, let's say that Steph has EDU 12 and Survey 1 while Vanna has
> EDU 9 and Survey 3.  Under MT, Steph has +3 DM (+2 EDU +1 skill), while
> Vanna has +4 (+1 EDU +3 skill).  Vanna wins out because she has more
> training in the task at hand (even a rocket scientist can't know
> everything about anything).  However, under T3 (and TNE), Steph as a
> target roll of 13, while Vanna has only 12.  So, in this case there is
> no benefit to knowing more about the job at hand.
> 
> So, even though Steph may have a broader base of knowledge, she is still
> better than Vanna who has specialized in a particular field and
> understands that field's nuances.

While I agree that Vanna may have more experience in the field of Survey, would 
that mean that she would have a better chance of *succeeding* in the task at 
hand? Not necessarily. Perhaps, she would do the job more efficiently, taking 
less time, resources, etc. Steph may indeed have a better chance at succeeding 
given her natural ability conferred to her through her education.

Some people would argue that there are certain tasks that *do* require a 
certain amount of the relevant experience to accomplish.

Well, I don't know if this will break any laws of statistics, but what you 
could do is the following:

a) choose a minimum skill level required. 
b) if the character has that skill level or higher, do task normally
c) otherwise first *subtract* the minimum skill level from the attribute, then 
add the character's actual skill.

Using Stef and Vanna's example, lets say the ref decides that this survey 
mission is so different and alien that only those with extensive survey 
experience (Survey-3) have a decent chance of succeeding. So, if Steph has EDU 
12 and Survey 1 while Vanna has EDU 9 and Survey 3, Stef needs 12-3+1=10 and 
Vanna needs 9+3=12, giving Vanna's survey experience and expertise the nod in 
this situation.

ON the other hand, in another game system, Stef is piloting her m'gh*spth'!tr 
science vessel through unknown space and has to avoid collision with a rogue 
comet. She doesn't have time to put together a really GREAT flower arrangement 
through her computer interface, so the ref decides that her Aesthetics 
controlling attribute of 12 isn't as important, and the computer will accept no 
less than Flower Arraging-5 in order to avoid the comet. Well, her skill level 
is 4, so she needs a roll of 11 to avoid collision...

Just a thought.

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Astronomical Units and the Solar System

> Subject: Astrological Units and the Solar System

I've retitled this from your original post -- "astrology" is a divinatory 
technique making use of the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets of 
the Solar System, while "astronomy" is the scientific study of these 
objects and other bodies in space.  I think you mean the latter. :)

> Here's a set of reasonably Trav oriented questions for you educated
> types out there.  I am trying to get my head back into astrological
> units et.al. for when I start to referee again.
> 
> 1. What is the precise speed of light?

3.0 x 10^8 m/s (just under that, actually, but that's accurate to two sig 
figs.)  186,282 mi/s.

> 2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
> distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
> sun).

This info is all over encyclopediae, the Web, et al, but two basic 
distances will get you started:

Earth-Luna:      400,000 km        1.25 light-seconds
Earth-Sun:   150,000,000 km        8    light-minutes

> 3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
> in real life?

150 million km, 93 million miles, the mean Earth-Sun distance.  And yes, 
it's the standard unit for discussing solar system distances in real 
life.  It stands for "Astronomical Unit".

> 4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
> why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
> hex?  If so, why?

Yes, it is.  This is the distance at which an object will display a 
parallax of one second of arc when viewed from opposite sides of Earth's 
orbit around the Sun (a 2 AU baseline).  "PARallax SECond" leads to the 
contraction "parsec".  It's a unit of convenience...you can convert a 
stars parallax in arcseconds into a distance in parsecs by just taking 
the reciprocal.  It's a useful unit because most stars in our part of the 
galaxy are separated by one or two parsecs from their neighbors.  Thus 
Trav quite reasonably picked it as the hex size.  A map with light-year 
hexes would be *much* sparser.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:58:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

Please excuse repeated information, I'm a bit behind on mail....

jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey) wrote:

>> 3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
>> in real life?
>>
>  An AU is the distance from Earth to the Sun. It is used in real life, but
>I am not sure how much. I guess it is a lot more meaningful for comparisons
>than looking at figures in the millions.

One figure that I liked using in TNE was the megameter (Mm), a thousand
times bigger than the kilometer.  It's a lot cleaner to speak of sensors
with ranges of 300 Mm instead of 300000 km, and then I didn't have to 
worry about how big a hex was -- MT's 25 Mm or TNE's more logical 30 Mm.
One AU is 149.6 thousand Mm (or 149.6 million km, pick your poison).

>> 4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?
>> why is this so significant?
>>
>  Well, you asked - It is "the distance at which 1AU would subtend an angle
>of 1 second of arc." or "The distance at which a star would show a parallax
>of 1 second of arc". I think it is mostly a pretty convenient measure of a 
>very large distance. As well as being the standard size of a stellar hex, it,
>apparently, is more often used than Light Years by astronomers too.

This is because one of the better ways to calculate distance to a stellar
object is by using parallax.  Converting from parallax shown to parsecs in
range basically involves dividing one by the parallax observed.  And in case 
anyone is curious, a parsec is about 206265 AU.  (Or as they say in the 
Imperial Marines, 
  "It's a long way to alpha Centauri, / It's a long way to go....") 

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:33:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Thoughts 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10: 35:00 GMT
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:33:28 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: In your message dated Thursday 29, August 1996 Jerry wrote :
: 
: I'm on a couple of groups at the moment, and you are the second person to rav
: about the Heavy Gear system. Somebody outlined it tom me and it sounded 
: excellent. Would there be a seamless way of intigrating that task system with
: T4 as a variant? I imagine characteristics would be a problem.

Hey, anything's doable.  Just make any Traveller attribute levels of 6
equal HG 0 and do something like for every two above six, it's a +1 to
the attribute (sorry for the non-Trav talk here).

Anyway, like I said, I'm happy with T4, but I just wanted to see what
everyone else thinks about some of the things that made me think twice.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:35:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

Shadow writes:

>Actually, most ships that don't have a *good* reason to be painted some
>other way will be a "light" color overall, with the radiator panels
>being black. This is due to heat loading considerations. Sunlight at 1
>AU is several kW/m^2 of heat. Since ships already have problems getting
>rid of heat, you paint them a color that tends not to absorb it. 
>Likewise, you paint the radiators as black as you can, as that helps
>radiate heat. 

This is sort of true but not completely. The heat you absorb from sunlight
comes in mostly at visible light wavelengths, the heat you radiate comes
out at 10-20 microns, so what you want (ideally) is a material that's 
relatively light/shiny in the visible and black in the IR. There are many
materials that satisfy this (clear anodized aluminum, for example.) Since most
Traveller players don't have access to 10-20 micron cameras, you probably only
need to worry about the visual appearance while painting...so paint it 
whatever color you like, preferably fairly light colored.

Also, the heat loads for Traveller spaceships are (probably) dominated by
waste heat from the power plant (see the recent long, inconclusive radiator
thread on gdw-beta), so sunlight reflection/thermal emission isn't very
important. 

re: camoflage and colors for military ships: visual spotting is somewhat
important, in fact; TNE (and presumably T4) passive sensors integrate
information over a variety of wavelengths, and there are situations where 
reflected visible light is an important part of a ship's signature. Not the
most important part, usually - thermal IR is probably where ships are most
easily detected - but fairly important. I'd say any EMM-equipped ship 
probably implicitly has a black/dark grey hull, non-EMM ships are dominated
by their thermal emission and can be any color you like. 

Bruce 

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:09:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

Quoth Derek Stanley:
> >If you misjump further than 3000 AU unless you drift within 10 diameters
> >of a comet or a moon you are definitely SOL unless you have a HEPLAR 
> >drive too.
> 
> This has always been my greatest mis-giving about the inclusion of 
> Grav-Thursters, if for some reason you wind up in the middle of the big 
> black you're screwed, boned and f*cked in the biggest sence of the word. 
>  You'd never come back and no one would ever know what happened.  The 
> rifts would be utterly impassable to ships without HEPLAR because you 
> could never manouver into your deep space calibration point they'd just 
> watch you float by 100 yards off the starboard bow and there's nothing 
> they could do to stop you.

Yep.  That's one reason why we decided on the distance limit over on the
Beta list.  (I wrote the basic description of thruster plates that wound
up on the Golden Web Pages, and did some example math for the list of what
might constitute a good cut-off value).  We wanted to provide an advantage
to old-fashioned HEPlaR under some circumstances, rather than making
thrusters an all-around improvement.  Particularly if they're gravitically
based, lack of a gravity field seems a good idea, and also explains why,
in CT/MT, so much was made of deep-space refuelling bases being built
around brown dwarfs or rogue comets instead of a manufactured facility/
fuel dump: the very mass of the rendezvous allows efficient thruster use. 
However, rather than banning thruster use entirely (which I at first
supporter), I think the "new canon" has an efficiency drop of 99% or so. 
You can move: you're just awful pokey.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 15:47:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

On 08/30/96 at 12:43 PM,  eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:

>Speed of light: 186,000mph or 300,000kph

Eeek!  My bad!  <g> Make that per *second*, not hour...  186,000mps or
300,000kps.

That's better,

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:42:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Astro-Lord-Help-Us Units.

At 10:53 AM 8/30/96 -0400, Pete Blake wrote:

>4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
>why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
>hex?  If so, why?
>

Its the standard unit for measurement of interstellar distances (here on
good old Earth) because, as Merrick pointed out, it is the quantity we can
measure directly  -- that is, its 1 over the paralax, the angular movement
of a star attributable to Earth's revolution around the Sun.

If you convert a measured paralax (which has an error) to, say, light years,
you depend upon the accuracy of the AU (a measured quantity with an error)
and the speed of light (measured: yet more error).  Instead of letting all
those errors have a party in your data, you just talk about what you have
measured directly.

One presumes, given the accuracy of jump systems, that along with jump drive
some rather more accurate methods of measuring interstellar distances have
been developed by year 0.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan sketch

Just adding my 2 cents here:

I think it's VERY BAD too!  The muscles/bones are all wrong,
the posture is all wrong... And why would an Aslan need all those
spikes?  He's got dewclaws.

Speaking of dewclaws... I seem to remember that Aslans had only
4 fingers? (3 + weird opposable thumb)  If so, the person who
drew the aslan has never really paid attention to the depictions
of aslans we all know and love.


Other things:  I plan to rewrite/update my miniatures painting ideas
that's on Dave J. Golden's site in light on the discussion here 
and some of the stuff I've done since... When I have time.

Also I think I came up with the most simple ship combat system
that is still exciting and fun...  I'll post all of that next week.
Just remind me when I have time ok? :)


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:03:37 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

> Precise!  David asks for precise!  <g> Sorry, but the best I can do without
> looking things up is approximation.
> 
> Speed of light: 186,000mph or 300,000kph

mpSecond and kpSecond!

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:17:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Task Systems

I hope I don't cause an infinite loop, but I'm going to reply to my own 
message because I had another Idea :-)

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> Well, I don't know if this will break any laws of statistics, but what you
> could do is the following:
> 
> a) choose a minimum skill level required.
> b) if the character has that skill level or higher, do task normally
> c) otherwise first *subtract* the minimum skill level from the attribute, then
> add the character's actual skill.
> 
> Using Stef and Vanna's example, lets say the ref decides that this survey
> mission is so different and alien that only those with extensive survey
> experience (Survey-3) have a decent chance of succeeding. So, if Steph has EDU
> 12 and Survey 1 while Vanna has EDU 9 and Survey 3, Stef needs 12-3+1=10 and
> Vanna needs 9+3=12, giving Vanna's survey experience and expertise the nod in
> this situation.

Instead of subtracting the minimum skill level for a situation in which a 
ref wanted a minimum skill level of competence, perhaps it would be more 
intuitive to say that for any skill level under the minimum, the 
character would be treated as unskilled, ie. use *half* the controlling 
attribute then add skill.

For the example above, Stef would need a (12/2)+1=7 and and Vanna 9+3=12. 
This would *really* make the skill level more important than the 
controlling attribute.

Does this make sense?

Glenn.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #362
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 31 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 363

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: New Aslan sketch
         2. Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply
         3. Re: Building temples to CT
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
         5. Re: Marine Officers
         6. Re: T4 Miniatures
         7. Re: T4 in Atlanta
         8. Re: Task Systems
         9. Re: T4 Thoughts
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
        11. Re: T4 Task System
        12. T4: Shadis Review
        13. Re: Marine Officers
        14. T4: Characteristics Analysis
        15. Re: Pierre's MSSCSTISEAF System
        16. Re: Bad-mouth Keith?
        17. Re: Marine Officers
        18. Resources at Dave Golden's Site.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:35:49 -0500
Subject: Re: New Aslan sketch

>>I was horrified by the new sketch of the 'Aslan Warrior' on IG's webpage
>>It looks like a human with make-up on. They should get W.H. Keith or Rob
>
>I've just had a peek, and I totally agree. It's *horrible*.

Actually, it looks a LOT better in 3-D, where you can atually SEE the tail
and the fur and the makeup and the dancing and....oh, wait. Darn it. I was
thinking of "Cats."

"Miiiiiid-night,
Not a sound from the Aslan,
Just the humming of starships,
Life was beautiful then...."

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:44:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> NPC local (explaining things to other PCs as they stare at smoking hole
> in ground where PC1 was standing): "That 'barbarian' is the god of
> thunder, you idiots...."
 How about(for a milleu 0 less so but more TNE oriented) the "God of
Thunder" would be a very wealthy person in command of a meson site(and
assorted nasties) whose brain got damaged during coldsleep and some of the
first material he came along was mythologicial records printouts he was
reading before they went to sleep(could have been a amateur historian...)
so that's what they use to fill in the holes in their identity.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
                -- Mark Twain


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:48:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Building temples to CT

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

[Snip, Crackle, Pop!]
> Seriously, I'm so glad you are picking up the slack on multiple purchases of
> the new game.  I *tried* to explain to my wife why I needed so many copies,
> but she just pointed out the several hundred pounds of Traveller material,
> some of it dating back to 1977, currently residing in our apartment.

[cough]  Well, uh, I'm guilty of that, too.  Fortunately, my wife is a much 
greater pack-rat than I am, so she understands the need to keep lots 
and lots of stuff around, even if it doesn't get used for a few years. :)


> I got her to agree to one hardcover and one softcover.  Now I just have to
> explain the small temple I'm building for my original black books and the
> hardcover T4....

I suggest starting with white marble shelves.  They set off the black CT 
books nicely. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:54:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> >I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
> >found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
> >government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
> >ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
> >drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...
> 
> How bout Imperial Scouts!  Or is that just a bit too presumtuous?

Hmmm....let's see...

"Join the Imperial Scouts: the Big Tent Party.  With your help, we can 
take over the world!"  Nah, too much like Pinky and the Brain. :)  

Would anyone who is better at ad copy than I am care to take a crack at 
coming up with a slogan for our new party?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:58:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> If this is accurate, then that is a *change* from CT/MT.  In the earlier
> versions, it was explicitly stated that prospective Marine officers attend
> the Naval Academy.  (This is also how it's done in the US, which provides
> the model for how the Imperial military services are organized in general
> -- yes, I know there are some departures, but it's overall closer to the
> US model than to anyplace else.)

Until someone produces a Marine equivalent of the Military Academy, I'm 
going to allow graduates of that Academy to choose enlistment in Army or 
Marines at O1 upon graduation.  Why leave the Marines out of the 
educational process when Merchants have their own academy...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:59:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
> 15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
> switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
> ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...  You can easily
> model a 15mm Scout; in 25mm it becomes daunting.  Rousting the local
> constabulary (in my case, a bunch of 15mm French Foriegn Legion figures from
> Stone Mountain) can be done on a dining room table in 15mm; it requires the
> game table in the basement in 25mm.  What think the rest of you? -Bill

Although I don't own any of the CT 15mm miniatures, I'm a traditionalist, 
so I agree with you.  I'd like to see T4 use 15mm miniatures.

However, I seem to recall something being said at Gen Con about using 25mm 
miniatures.  But, I can't remember for sure...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:06:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 in Atlanta

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> I agree, but for central or well known locations, pregenerated sectors
> would, to me, make sense, just for commonality - as part of the whole idea
> of playing in the same mileau (sp?), so if I, say, move to Rome NY and fall
> in with the group there, Deneb is still Deneb...  There are lots of
> sectors/subsectors/systems not on the beaten path whose details should
> (again IMO) be left to each group to detail... - Bill

So you feel IG should have provided stats on a whole sector or more, 
rather than the few planets in T4?  You're right, that would be helpful, 
but it would be hard to justify.  The Imperium is just beginning in 
Milieu 0, after the Long Night.  I think it makes more sense to have only 
a few core planets defined, given that.

Alternatively, IG could have provided /referees/ with the UPPs of more 
planets while leaving the information off of maps to be shared with players.
But, I think that would be a non-optimal solution.  Not only would it be 
possible for players to spoil things by buying the book(s) containing 
this information, it would also make all campaigns run in Milieu 0 after the 
first have few "unknowns" for players. 

I like the idea of customizing the setting each time I start a new 
campaign in the same milieu. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:14:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Task Systems

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Instead of subtracting the minimum skill level for a situation in which a 
> ref wanted a minimum skill level of competence, perhaps it would be more 
> intuitive to say that for any skill level under the minimum, the 
> character would be treated as unskilled, ie. use *half* the controlling 
> attribute then add skill.
> 
> For the example above, Stef would need a (12/2)+1=7 and and Vanna 9+3=12. 
> This would *really* make the skill level more important than the 
> controlling attribute.
> 
> Does this make sense?

It does to me.  And it's way better than what that Glenn Hopper guy who 
you were responding to came up with. :)

Seriously, I like it.  Let's say the ref decides that it takes Medical-4+ 
to do brain surgery.  If Stephanie has Medical-3 and Dex 12, while Vanna 
has Medical-4 and Dex-8, the targets would be (12/2)+3=9 and 8+4=12, 
respectively.

It works for me, and I can see a lot of situations where it could be 
applied to good effect.  Plus, it leaves the decision for which tasks 
require a minimum skill level (and what that minimum skill level is) in 
the referee's hands - a good thing in my estimation.

Good Job, Glenn!


- -Joe
p.s.  As an added bonus, it's such a short rule IG could put it in their 
errata, and claim they just left it out. ;)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:21:35 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

        Joe Walsh wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, That Computer Guy wrote:
>
>[Snipple, the new beverage from PepsiCo!]
>> I don't know if I'm going to like the task system.  I've always been a
>> fan of task systems that place more emphaisis on the skill as opposed to
>> the controlling attribute.  Good examples of tasks systems that do this
>> (and also just happen to be my favorites) are:  the task systems for
>> MegaTraveller, CORPS, and Heavy Gear.  In all of these, the controlling
>> attribute is used at a fraction of it's level (MT and CORPS), or as a
>> die modifier (HG).
>
>I can definitely see where you're coming from here.  When I first found
>out about the task system, I thought..."Wow!  That is so cool!  Get rid
>of the 3+/8+/11+/15+ progression, use the stat as a basis, and vary the
>dice!  How elegant!"
>
>But once I started playing around with it, I got a bit discouraged.
>"Geez, my guy with Survey-6 and Edu of 8 has the same chance of success
>as this other PC with Survey-2 and Edu of 12!  Arrghh!  Doesn't all
>that experience count for anything??"
>
>Then I realized the implications of this system.  What IG has surmised is
>that someone who has a relatively high characteristic that is relevant to
>the task will benefit /more/ from the same amount of training and
>experience than someone who has a lower characteristic score.  Further, they
>decided that the characteristic was more important than the training /if
>the person had at least some training/.
[snip]
>- -Joe

        I've been thinking about this one a little bit since Ross Coburn
raised the specter of himself playing one-on-one basketball with Michael
Jordan.  Ross rightly pointed out that despite the fact that he's generally
a pretty coordinated guy, and likes basketball, Michael Jordan's base
characteristics are such that no amount of training on Ross's part would
enable him to win.

        For those of us who have a good idea of Ross's characteristics,
this is instantly comprehensible :).

        On the other hand, let's take me & my old fencing coach, Herr Obst.
Despite the fact that I am several inches taller than Herr Obst, am
somewhat skinnier (both of which really help in epee), and have the usual
youth-related physical advantages, even at the peak of my form (four-five
years ago, when I was fencing for McGill), I wouldn't have had a snowball's
hope in hell of beating the guy.  Despite my superior characteristics, his
superior skill is such that I will have to wait until he's 95 or so before
having a hope of beating him.

        It's an interesting question, actually... in some areas training is
all-important, in other's it's native talent.  Maybe a system that left the
weighting of each up to the ref might better reflect reality.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:21:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

Paul Walker wrote:

>From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:41:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
>
>>Let's make Traveller the RPG of "inclusion." :P
>>
>>[For those not familiar with current American politics (lucky you!), both
>>of our major political parties are claiming to be the "party of
>>inclusion," while being /very/ selective in what their members are
>>allowed to say on certain topics the party leaders have very strong
>>opinions about.]
>>
>>I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's
>>found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world
>>government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call
>>ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who
>>drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...
>
>How bout Imperial Scouts!  Or is that just a bit too presumtuous?
>
>
>Paul  {tiger}
>http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


        Naw... it sounds like Boy Scouts with a bad case of megalomania :).


*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:18:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Task System

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, R.D. Elliott wrote:

[Discussion of agreement with previously surmised importance of native 
talent - snipped]
>         On the other hand, let's take me & my old fencing coach, Herr Obst.
> Despite the fact that I am several inches taller than Herr Obst, am
> somewhat skinnier (both of which really help in epee), and have the usual
> youth-related physical advantages, even at the peak of my form (four-five
> years ago, when I was fencing for McGill), I wouldn't have had a snowball's
> hope in hell of beating the guy.  Despite my superior characteristics, his
> superior skill is such that I will have to wait until he's 95 or so before
> having a hope of beating him.

Hmm.  I don't know enough about fencing (heck, I don't know /anything/ 
about fencing!) to be able to discuss it with you. :(

However, perhaps this can springboard us into a discussion of . . .

>         It's an interesting question, actually... in some areas training is
> all-important, in other's it's native talent.  Maybe a system that left the
> weighting of each up to the ref might better reflect reality.

Is there some simple rule-of-thumb we could use to define when skill is 
of primary importance vs. when characteristics are of primary importance?
An example might be physical skills vs. mental skills (I know, that 
doesn't hold up - it's just an example).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:23:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: Shadis Review

The latest issue of Shadis (#28) has a review of Marc Miller's Traveller.

The review itself is only about 1/6 of a page (after you take out the 
list of products to be available, the stats (# pages, price, publisher, 
etc.), and a brief review of Traveller product history).  

The review is generally favorable, noting that the book is "quite 
complete," the character system "provides characters with more depth," 
"the skill system is sharp," etc.

However, they note that the book could use more examples.  Specifically, 
lengthy examples for the complex subjects like ground combat.  Also, the 
reviewer says he wishes there were more "background information on the 
game world."  

It's not a glowing review, but perhaps it will get a few people to check 
the game out.  At the very least, it increases the number of people who 
will know that the product exists.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 20:59:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

 
At Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:15:01 -0400 (EDT) "Joseph M. Saul"
<jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:

>> 2) Your #3 is correct.
>
>> >2. Do prospective Marine officers: (1) Attend NOTC/Naval Academy;
>> >(2) Attend OTC/Military Academy; (3) Always start their Marine
>> >careers as enlisted men (no college/academy option)?^?

>If this is accurate, then that is a *change* from CT/MT.  In the earlier
>versions, it was explicitly stated that prospective Marine officers attend
>the Naval Academy.  (This is also how it's done in the US, which provides
>the model for how the Imperial military services are organized in general
>- -- yes, I know there are some departures, but it's overall closer to the
>US model than to anyplace else.)

This gives a nice feel for the Marines... You can't lead until you have
followed.  Puts the Noble fops in their place.  (I imagine some Marine Drill
thusly:  "M'Lord Philip? Duke of Nova Cartago? GET DOWN AND DO PUSH-UPS
UNTIL THIS PLANET LEAVES ITS GOD-ASSIGNED ORBIT!!  If that *pleases* you..." )

I have also come up with new ranks for the Imperial Navy Ground Force

   E-1  Private             O-1  Force Ensign
   E-2  Private, 1st Class  O-2  Lieutenant
   E-3  Lance Corporal      0-3  Force Commander
   E-4  Corporal            0-4  Major
   E-5  Sergeant            0-5  Lieutenant Colonel
   E-6  Gunnery Sergeant    0-6  Colonel
   E-7  Ship's Sergeant     0-7  Brigade General
   E-8  Fleet Sergeant      0-8  Force General
   E-9  Master Fleet Sergeant
        Senior Master Fleet Sergeant
        Command Master Fleet Sergeant


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 23:07:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4: Characteristics Analysis

I've been meaning to add up the number of times each characteristic is 
listed in the skill listing as being the primary characteristic related 
to a given skill.  

I only counted the number of times each characteristic is listed /first/ 
in the Skills List.  The results are surprising.  Dex, Int, and Edu each 
have more than 20 skills that list them as primary characteristics.  
Strength has 1, End has 4, and Soc has 2.

Usefulness outside of the skills range:  Strength has usefulness in 
hand-to-hand attacks (the Strength pool), as one of the "hit point" 
characteristics, and in carrying things; Endurance is used 
for the Endurance pool (to determine the number of fully effective attacks 
one can make), and as one of the "hit point" characteristics; and Social 
Standing can be useful if one has a very high score - good contacts, etc.

This helps to balance the usefulness of the characteristics.  However:

1)  In addition to being a much-used characteristic in tasks, Dexterity is 
useful in avoiding being hit by hand-to-hand attacks, and as one of the 
physical characteristics that acts as "hit points.".  This is a pretty 
useful characteristic to have a high score in.

2)  Social standing is the least useful characteristic, except at very 
high levels. (Or am I forgetting something?)

The rest of the characteristics (Strength, Endurance, Intelligence, and 
Education) seem pretty balanced in terms of their importance.

Soooo..if one is using one of the alternate character generation methods, 
AND if one is the type of player that wants to max out his character's 
potential in terms of raw statistics, it might be wise to put the best 
roll on Dex, and the worst roll on Soc.

Still, the T4 system is one of the most balanced games in terms of 
the usefulness of characteristics that I've seen.

Sorry...it's late, and I'm rambling.  I'm going to bed . . .


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 13:25:12 UT
Subject: Re: Pierre's MSSCSTISEAF System

In a previous post, Pierre-Louis Constantin wrote:

>
>Also I think I came up with the most simple ship combat system
>that is still exciting and fun...  I'll post all of that next week.
>Just remind me when I have time ok? :)

ok...

Hey Pierre, when you have time, will ya post yer MSSCSTISEAF System next week 
when ya have some time....  on behalf of all of us here on the network, 
thanks.    ;-)

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:42:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Bad-mouth Keith?

On 30 Aug 96 at 14:55, Hugh Foster spewed:

> Hey, hey! I won't listen to people dissing the Keith brothers! For
> me and many, their art still remains the definitive Aslan - and the
> main portrayal of Traveller. The new stuff is gonna be good, judging
> by the web page - but for me it doesn't replace the old.

Not to mention the fact that the Keith Brothers had a whole lot to do 
with defining not only what the aliens looked like, but also what 
they acted like in many cases...  Take a look through old JTAS's...  
Just about all the major races got their first writeups from the 
Keith Brothers...

Although, I gotta tell you...  despite the odd spaceships, Foss runs 
rings around the quality of their drawings...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:42:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On 30 Aug 96 at 19:58, Joe Walsh spewed:

> Until someone produces a Marine equivalent of the Military Academy,
> I'm going to allow graduates of that Academy to choose enlistment in
> Army or Marines at O1 upon graduation.  Why leave the Marines out of
> the educational process when Merchants have their own academy...

Correct me if I'm wrong...but wouldn't it more appropriate for 
Marines to attend Naval Academy???  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:43:05 -0700
Subject: Resources at Dave Golden's Site.

Evening all.

Well I didn't get much of a responce the first time I put forth my 
request for creative critisim, so being an undetured Canuckle Head, I 
shall once again put forth my request.

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Wilds.html

I've sent a number of articles to Dave Golden's page and they have been 
posted to his Resources Page.  My pages are all linked to the "Wilds" 
section of his page, now I realize that this is largely TNE specific and 
before you start reaching for your crosses and wooden stakes remember I'm 
not asking you to agree with the system, I'm asking for critisim on the 
construction layout and general content of the pages.

I'm also asking for critisim on my writing style and the manner in which 
the information is presented, now I know from reading most of the posts 
that have been floating about on T4 that you're all capable of presenting 
your own opinion.  So give it a try, check out the Wild's page and the 
links contained there in.  I realize several of the links go no where 
that's an oversight that I'm working on.

So here's that address again.  Check it out and let me know what you 
think.  It's a long weekend so don't tell me you haven't got time.

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Wilds.html

Thanks in advance.

Derek Stanley

"Memory is the medium of past experience, as the
 ground is the medium in which dead cities lie inturred."
				Walter Benjamin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #363
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 31 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 364

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
         2. Converting TNE characters to T4
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360
         4. Typesetting and Trendy Fonts
         5. Keith Brothers
         6. Re: T4 Miniatures
         7. Non-Aslan Illustration
         8. Random Musings about T4
         9. Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)
        10. Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis
        11. RE: Non-Aslan Illustration 
        12. Re: T4 Miniatures
        13. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360
        15. Re: Keith Brothers
        16. Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis
        17. Re: Bad-mouth Keith?
        18. Possible PBEM?
        19. Skill System Fix

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:04:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

>I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
>found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
>government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
>ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
>drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...

Count me in.  I have resolved that if a certain politician is elected come
November that I will give up all hope in democracy.  And the current
totalitarian parties, the communists and nazis, are so distasteful.

The beer connotation will do wonders with the masses.


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 05:33:19 -0400
Subject: Converting TNE characters to T4

        Here's the procedure I've been using to convert characters to the
new game.

1.) Attributes as for TNE, with 1 added to each one. (Traveller uses 2d6;
TNE used 2d6-1.) Charisma is of course dropped. (ALTERNATIVE: Divide the
Charisma stat by 3 and let the character take that many levels in skills
from the Charisma Cluster)

2.) I assume that T4 skill equals TNE skill/2. Thus a Slug Weapon(Slug
Pistol)-10 becomes Pistol-5. Skills that are at level 1 or level 0 are dropped.

3.) I assume an average of 5 levels per term for a character with 4 terms or
less, 4 levels a term for characters with 5+ terms. I total up the skill
levels assigned above; if they do not add up to the proper total, I begin
reinstating level 1 and level 0 skills dropped above at 1 level per skill
until the proper total is reached.
IF you have a complete record of the character's service career (my players
are sloppy about record keeping sometimes), you could calculate EXACTLY how
many levels the character is supposed to have.

4.) Equipment is handled by giving the character the closest equivilents, or
by fudging stats for the stuff T4 doesn't cover yet. (Anyone have a T4
version of the Crunch Gun?)

        I know this isn't the most accurate formula in the world, but it
handles the characters well, and allows people to play characters that are
on a par with T4-generated ones. Suggestions for improvements that preserve
the general simplicity of the system (or add only minor complexities) would
be highly welcome.

        Allen Shock


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:38:58 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360

>I think that's supposed to read Diameters not AU.  At that kind of AU
>you'd be way beyond the edges of our system.
>
>Derek Stanley

I think Marc and friends means AUs so gravthrusters have a range of several
thousand AU thus making them useful everywhere in a solar system and
probably between far binaries as well (Scouts have  far binaries at 1D6 x
1000 AU apart).

Somebody asked what real world use Parsec has for astronomers. Well if you
take a picture from earth at some stars and then again 6 months later when
earth is on the other size of its orbit a star that has apparantly moved on
arcsecond is at one parsec range. This is the best way to measure the
distance to nearby stars.
PS Mac users can download my World builders handbook based HyperCard stack
for generating star systems at my website below.DS


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 06:11:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Typesetting and Trendy Fonts

Thus spake Loren K. Wiseman <gdw.support@genie.com>:

[snip]

> Roderick Darroch Elliott:
> > Format: Typesetting was pretty blah.  Using sans serif fonts for
> > text is against my religion.
> 
> Gosh...and 30 years ago it was _so_ trendy!

The nice thing about low chairs like mine is that it minimizes the 
distance my butt has to travel when I fall out of such chairs laughing.

I dunno.  In and of itself, it wasn't that hysterical.  Something about 
the historical context, I guess...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 14:22:00 GMT 
Subject: Keith Brothers

Stu:

> Take a look through old JTAS's...Just about all the major races got
> their first writeups from the Keith Brothers...

I think you'll also find the phrase "and Loren K Wiseman" on the
majority of those writeups.

Loren "If thou tootest not thine own horn, none will tootle it for
thee" Wiseman

P.S. The basic point, however, is well taken. Bill and Andy defined
the look of Traveller, and I for one liked it _very_ much. My decision
to hire Bill to do artwork for JTAS is arguably the best thing I ever
did for Traveller. BTW, the K in Loren K Wiseman stands for
"Keith"...a fine old Gaelic name.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:22:04 GMT
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

My preference is for 25mm.  I started with 15mm, and still have many of the
figures, but I find 25mm has more visual appeal - you can get more detail in
the figure without straining your eyes.  I used to like 15mm for the reason
you gave (space), but found that as I shifted emphasis from wargaming to
roleplaying I prefered the larger size.

That said, I should note that I consider most Twilight: 2000 adventures to be
wargaming scenarios, not role-playing adventures.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:32:12 GMT
Subject: Non-Aslan Illustration

>BTW, what the hell is the Aslan illustrated on said web page doing with a
bloody
>_sword_?!

How can you tell the sword is bloody?  It's in its sheath, after all :-)

I, too, don't like the illustration.  It _does_ look like a Klingon.  (Tuned
in to Star Trek - ug - to check that.)  The proportions look too humanoid,
mucles are more human than feline, and the face and costume are Klingon (with
a samuri katana).

In my universe, at least, the Aslan will look like they did in CT/MT.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:11:39 -0400
Subject: Random Musings about T4

        Last night we created some of the characters that will be played in
our T4 Year 0 campaign. We wound up with: an archaeologist who drifted into
criminology and forensics (my wife had seen a show about forensic
archaeology), a Noble, a Navy officer who quit and joined the Merchants, an
undercover cop (2 terms as an Agent and a partial term as a rogue) and a
Naval officer who joined Imperial Intelligence after his naval career was
over. These folks, and two more, are now going to be freelance
Scouts...could get interesting.
        I've been futzing around with this, and it looks to me like it would
be relatively easy to convert at least the task system-oriented parts of
Brilliant 
Lances and/or Battle Rider to the new task system. You'd still need to use
the funny dice and cards for some things, but it allows the use of BL at
least until Traveller Starship Battles comes out.
        I've created a T4 style version of Hiver Technical Academy for
purposes of continuing my Virus Era (I'm trying to get out of the habit of
saying "New Era") game. I'm not entirely happy with it. I'll post it here,
and if any of you have ideas for improvements, please feel free to pass 'em
along.

HIVER TECHNICAL ACADEMY (4 Years)

PREREQUISITE: Education or Intelligence 7+
ADMISSION: 5-; DM +1 if Int 9+; DM +2 if Edu A+
FAILED ADMISSION: No Age penalty
PERSEVERANCE: 7-; DM +1 if End 8+; DM +2 if Int 8+
FLUNKED OUT: Spent 1d3 years
             Roll once per year on Academic Skills
ACADEMIC SKILLS (roll two per year)
                
                1. SCIENCES
                2. SCIENCES
                3. TECHNICAL
                4. TECHNICAL
                5. SPACECRAFT
                6. Jack of all Trades

GRADUATION: Automatic enlistment in RCES at enlisted rank
HONORS: 8-
        Benefit: +2 Edu. Can apply for Flight School, Commando School or
Medical         School.


What'cha all think?

                  Allen Shock


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:47:00 GMT
Subject: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)

>Alternatively, IG could have provided /referees/ with the UPPs of more 
>planets while leaving the information off of maps to be shared with players.
>But, I think that would be a non-optimal solution.  Not only would it be 
>possible for players to spoil things by buying the book(s) containing 
>this information, it would also make all campaigns run in Milieu 0 after the

>first have few "unknowns" for players. 
>
>I like the idea of customizing the setting each time I start a new 
>campaign in the same milieu. :)

A reasonable compromise would be to provide a starmap (location/size/spectrum
 only) because that can be done by observation from Sylea.  Define one axis
of exploration/conquest as 'official', the other as 'open', and keep the
official adventures to the official area.  Referees setting a campaign in the
open area wouldn't have to worry about being overwritten; referees lacing the
time/inclination to do their own thing could rely on a continuing series of
adventures in the official area.

IMHO, the problem with specifying just a planet and letting the referee site
it is that few planets are isolated.  It's rather like specifying Canada
without the USA: they are different countries (despite what many Americans
think) but very significant to each other (each is the other's largest
trading partner).

Now, if your game tends to ignore politics and economics, this isn't
important.  But if your players are diplomats, merchants, spies, etc then the
relationship between systems becomes significant (proximity, politics,
economy, culture...) - which makes it hard to relocate an adventure with
these elements to "a world with a feudal technocracy and insidious
atmosphere".

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:55:51 GMT
Subject: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis

>2)  Social standing is the least useful characteristic, except at very 
>high levels. (Or am I forgetting something?)

You probably aren't, assuming that T4 is like CT/MT/TNE.  On the other hand,
America is a fairly classless society, and one in which class is determined
mainly by money.

If you had grown up in Britain, you would realize that class can make a great
difference.  Having the right accent, the right parents, going to the right
school... all affect your life far more than they do in North America.

In my game, I use social  level as the characteristic for many tasks:
everything from getting a good table at a restaurant to clearing customs
quickly. 

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Non-Aslan Illustration 

In Reply to Your Message of 31 Aug 1996 16: 32:12 GMT
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:29:51 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: >BTW, what the hell is the Aslan illustrated on said web page doing with a
: bloody
: >_sword_?!
: 
: How can you tell the sword is bloody?  It's in its sheath, after all :-)
: 
: I, too, don't like the illustration.  It _does_ look like a Klingon.  (Tuned
: in to Star Trek - ug - to check that.)  The proportions look too humanoid,
: mucles are more human than feline, and the face and costume are Klingon (with
: a samuri katana).

I've got nothing against the sword, the makeup, or the style of dress.
My only beefs were the anatomically incorrect hands.

Just some food for thought (it goes with my first sentence):  why aren't
the Aslan of 1000 years ago allowed to be different from the Aslan of
CT/MT?  Hasn't our society changed drastically in that time?  Why can't
they also have a past?

Hey, look at the Scots.  How about the kilt?  The kilt of today is
definitely not the kilt of 1200, 1500, 1700, nor 1800.  Neither are the
weapons that the Scots carried.  The point is that as time, technology,
and society changes people (and Aslan, and Klingons) change as well.

: In my universe, at least, the Aslan will look like they did in CT/MT.

Mine will too, when we get to that Mileau.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:19:09 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

At 10:56 am 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
>15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
>switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
>ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...  You can easily
>model a 15mm Scout; in 25mm it becomes daunting.  Rousting the local
>constabulary (in my case, a bunch of 15mm French Foriegn Legion figures from
>Stone Mountain) can be done on a dining room table in 15mm; it requires the
>game table in the basement in 25mm.  What think the rest of you? -Bill

        Sorry, I'd disagree. I prefer 25mm figures for roleplaying games
because very few of my roleplaying games turn into tactical (read:
wargaming) games with vehicles, etc. The 25mm figures are more detailed,
there are more available, easier to paint with significant detail (these are
_player_ characters -- much loving care).

        Oh, yeah, and I have exclusively 25mm figures already.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:19:02 -0600
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

At 12:30 pm 8/30/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>Here's a set of reasonably Trav oriented questions for you educated
>types out there.  I am trying to get my head back into astrological
>units et.al. for when I start to referee again.
>
>1. What is the precise speed of light?

        Speed of light depends on wavelength and the material through which
it is travelling (no pun intended). Speed of visible light through concrete
is 0 <G>. However, in a vacuum the speed of light is 2.99793x10^8 m/s

>2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
>distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
>sun).

        Mean lunar orbital distance is 384,400km.

        For other planets, perihelion (closest) and aphelion (furthest)
distance in AU

        Mercury          0.307/ 0.467
        Venus            0.718/ 0.728
        Earth            0.983/ 1.017
        Mars             1.382/ 1.666
        Jupiter          4.953/ 5.453
        Saturn           9.005/10.073
        Uranus          18.279/20.082
        Neptune         29.790/30.331
        Pluto           29.580/49.300 -- yes, Pluto dips inside Neptune's orbit

>3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
>in real life?

        One Astronomical Unit is defined as the semi-major axis, or mean
distance, of Earth's orbit around the Sun, and is equal to 1.496x10^8 km.

>4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?  If so
>why is this so significant?  Isn't this the standard size of a subsector
>hex?  If so, why?

        A parsec is the distance at which one Astronomical Unit will subtend
one arc second (1 degree = 60 arcminutes = 3600 arcseconds). Simple trig
works out a distance of 3.26 lightyears.

        As for why it was chosen as the size of a subsector hex -- sounded
scientific, I guess.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:19:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360

At 02:38 pm 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>I think that's supposed to read Diameters not AU.  At that kind of AU
>>you'd be way beyond the edges of our system.
>>
>>Derek Stanley
>
>I think Marc and friends means AUs so gravthrusters have a range of several
>thousand AU thus making them useful everywhere in a solar system and
>probably between far binaries as well (Scouts have  far binaries at 1D6 x
>1000 AU apart).

        Nope. We meant solar radii. The whole reason the limitation on
thrust plates (WHICH ARE NOT CONTRAGRAVITY, D&*^*&IT! DON'T CONFUSE THEM)
was another one of those "canon" arguments. Canon says invaders first tried
to capture the system's gas giant for refueling. Defenders protected it.

        But the Kuiper Belt, around and beyond Pluto's orbit, is a large
repository of comets. Comets=ice=fuel. And a huge belt is impossible to
defend. So if there wasn't a reason NOT to refuel there, that's where
invaders would refuel. Which isn't canon, so there had to be a reason. To
avoid the canon police, we agreed on the "shelf" in Tplate performance,
inside Neptune's orbit (IIRC). The canonical research station on Pluto
(which Don changed to Sylea for some reason) had to be supplied via
old-fashioned reaction drives.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:19:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Keith Brothers

On 31 Aug 96 at 14:22, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> Stu:
> 
> > Take a look through old JTAS's...Just about all the major races
> > got their first writeups from the Keith Brothers...
> 
> I think you'll also find the phrase "and Loren K Wiseman" on the
> majority of those writeups.

Mine apologies...  It would be unfair to minimize your own 
contributions to the look and feel of the Traveller universe.  As we 
have discussed in the past...  Your work on the game is very 
appreciated...  I just felt somebody should leap to the defense of 
the Keith's a little bit...

> P.S. The basic point, however, is well taken. Bill and Andy defined
> the look of Traveller, and I for one liked it _very_ much. My
> decision to hire Bill to do artwork for JTAS is arguably the best
> thing I ever did for Traveller. BTW, the K in Loren K Wiseman stands

I would have to agree...  They wrote quite a few mean adventures and 
other things as well...  I remember reading an interview with the 
Keith Bros. in Megatraveller Journal 3, in which they used a few 
pseudonyms to write other articles so that it wouldn't like JTAS had 
been written by the Keith Brothers, yourself, MM, and Frank 
Chadwick...  How prevalent was that???  Did anybody else (yourself, 
or the other GDW staffers) do much of that???

> for "Keith"...a fine old Gaelic name.

Stu "whose got a wee bit o' blarney in him as well" Dollar
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:19:08 -0800
Subject: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis

On 31 Aug 96 at 16:55, Rob Prior spewed:

> >2)  Social standing is the least useful characteristic, except at
> >very high levels. (Or am I forgetting something?)
> 
> You probably aren't, assuming that T4 is like CT/MT/TNE.  On the
> other hand, America is a fairly classless society, and one in which
> class is determined mainly by money.

Actually, judging by the skill list in T4 this is a whole lot less 
true with T4 than others.  A large number of skills default off of 
Social Standing, including some that I might not have expected...

Your points on usefulness of the attribute in personal situations is 
good, but remember the reverse would be true as well.  A guy with an 
upper crust accent, clothes, manner, etc, is going to have an awful 
time finding somebody to sell him that black market PGMP-15 from the 
local mob...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:14:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Bad-mouth Keith?

"Stuart L. Dollar" said

>On 30 Aug 96 at 14:55, Hugh Foster spewed:
>
>> Hey, hey! I won't listen to people dissing the Keith brothers! For
>> me and many, their art still remains the definitive Aslan - and the
>> main portrayal of Traveller. old.
>
>Not to mention the fact that the Keith Brothers had a whole lot to do
>with defining not only what the aliens looked like, but also what
>they acted like in many cases...
>
>Although, I gotta tell you...  despite the odd spaceships, Foss runs
>rings around the quality of their drawings...

Technically, Foss is the more professional artist. But some of his work is
cold. And some of his ideas (the weapons and vehicles in T4) are just
awful. I *don't* want my Traveller to have a 1950s feel to it.

What the Keith brothers brought were stunning ideas with art that was
mostly more than adequate, and often quite good. After the AWFUL art in the
latter TNE releases, I was beginning to wonder if any of the editors at GDW
had any idea how to judge an illustration.

The two artists I'd LOVE to see back in the fold are Blair Reynolds (what
great work he did with DGP!) and Ken Frank, the best illustrator in the
original TNE book. I find that few of the illustrations in T4 elicit any
excitement or atmosphere. The starships are obviously the best, but some of
the color pieces at least are just recycled (I've seen some on book
covers), and simply don't feel like Traveller to me (oooooooh yeah - giant
claws on a ship. What a GREAT idea. Next they'll give us Ork Mekboys).

On the other hand, having new ship designs is better than I first thought
(given the fact that we're several thousand years into Traveller's past),
and I think the black and white starship illustrations have a lot going for
them.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:08:05 -0500
Subject: Possible PBEM?

I'm considering running a PBeM with the T4 Rules in a pre Year 0 adventure.
I'm thinking of a Year -4 or so during the time of the Sylean Federations
expansion into core sector.  I'm hoping to make the adventure into a JTAS
submission, but, having never done a JTAS adventure, I want to see how it
goes over first.  I'm looking for 3 to 5 players (OK 6 if you can give me a
good reason).

Anyway, EMail me if you want to help me learn how to be a better referee by
participating in my adventure.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:08:00 -0500
Subject: Skill System Fix

First of all, I have one BIG gripe.  Whose idea was it to have the potential
for multiple attributes applying to a single skill.  I thought the idea was
to make it easy on new ref's.  I understand the reasoning as far as making
the game realistic, but I don't think it makes the skill system any more
playable.  I vote for a single attribute for each skill. (I know the voting
is over, but I can still say it.)

Now, I had an idea for the skill problem that folks have mentioned.  I don't
like the idea of the soooo powerful attribute either, so I've thought about
it a bit, and we need a method that's gonna give us the same base number
when you add skill and attribute.  In the book they say an average character
will have an attribute of 7 and a skill of 2 or 3, yeilding an average
targer number of 9 or 10.

So, the goal is to come up with a target number of 9 or 10 but by making the
skill the "power" behind the number rather than the attribute.  Now, I don't
claim to be a whiz at role playing, nor am I a whiz at statistics, but I
have a potential fix.  At least its the potential fix that I'm gonna use
till I find either a problem with it or I find a better method.

Here's the method.  First half the attribute(round up) and double the skill.
Now, for the average person we get an attribute of 4 and a skill of 4 or 6
for a target number of 8 or 10, really close to our 9 or 10 in the book.

The examples from the list, Stef(12/1) and Vanna(9/3) would give target
numbers of 7(Stef) and 11(Vanna) which is more realistic, IMO.  This will,
I'm sure, upset some of the Traveller canon die-hards, but it does have the
advantage of working. :)

An interesting side-note, is that this could be backwards integrated into
character generation.  Rather than rolling 2D6 for attribute generation,
roll 2D3 (Hey don't want those D3 to go to waste!) and whenever the book
allows for a single skill to be gained, allow the character to choose two
skills.  I'm sure this thought will really perterb some Traveller canon
die-hards as well, but I kinda like it.  :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #364
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 31 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 365

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Miniatures
         2. Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)
         3. Re: T4 Miniatures
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360
         5. Re: Marine Officers
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #361
         7. Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)
         8. Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures
         9. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
        10. Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply
        11. Re: New Aslan sketch
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #361
        13. Real Physics and Thrusters
        14. Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)
        15. Marine Officers
        16. Brief questions, writing, ect....
        17. Re: The Imperialist Party
        18. Multiple Attributes in the Skill System
        19. Skill System Fix

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:53:04 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

On 31 Aug 96 at 11:19, David J. Golden spewed:

>         Sorry, I'd disagree. I prefer 25mm figures for roleplaying
>         games
> because very few of my roleplaying games turn into tactical (read:
> wargaming) games with vehicles, etc. The 25mm figures are more
> detailed, there are more available, easier to paint with significant
> detail (these are _player_ characters -- much loving care).

Frankly for those of us who are dexterity 3-4 on the ole' Traveller 
1-15 scale, painting even a 25 mm miniature is a chore...  Besides 
which, just about the whole industry is now geared towards 25mm at 
this point, and I think we do want to be compatible with standards... 
 Gonna be a lot easier to convert players from other systems if they 
don't have to toss ALL their miniatures...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 13:36:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)

On 08/31/96 at 04:47 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

>>I like the idea of customizing the setting each time I start a new 
>>campaign in the same milieu. :)

>A reasonable compromise would be to provide a starmap
>(location/size/spectrum only) because that can be done by
>observation from Sylea.

It was my understanding that that was precisely what they were going to do. 
Systems near Sylea would be better defined, and as you moved away from the
Syleaian core there would be less and less detail.

>Define one axis of exploration/conquest as 'official', the other as
>'open', and keep the official adventures to the official area.

That would be fine with me.  Actually, it doesn't matter because I'll
either use all, some or none of their details anyway.  <g> It'll depend on
how their details fit into my campaigns.

>It's rather like specifying Canada without the USA:  they are
>different countries (despite what many Americans think)...

<Sigh!> Now *why* did you have to make a crack like that?  We were getting
along so well! <g>

Now while it's true that many Americans would have trouble pointing to
Canada on a map, most of us *do* know Canada is a different country...just
like Hawaii.  But, you know, it's *obvious* that Canada is different, you
know, it's COLD up there!  It's a big frozen wasteland, sort of like
Alaska, right?  <g>

We know Canadians are different from us, Americans, too.  They speak
*french*, even when they don't have to!  And when they *do* speak english
they don't say, "you know", like we do, you know?  Instead they say "a"...a
lot.  They've got their own national anthem too, something like "Old
Can-a-da, mumble, mumble, mumble...", at least that's what it sounds like
when they sing it.  We know they have these cops in Red jackets and funny
hats called mounties that we suspect talk to their horses, but maybe that's
just a joke.  We also *suspect* that there are some women up there, but
don't hold us to it.  We know that there are a lot of real smart
Canadians...we know they're smart because they move down here to get out of
the cold.  I guess that explains why the ones that stay can't get a
football field marked right, eh?  <g>

And finally we know Canadians are different because they *choose* to live
up there! <g>

Eris, 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:02:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

 
>         Sorry, I'd disagree. I prefer 25mm figures for roleplaying games
> because very few of my roleplaying games turn into tactical (read:
> wargaming) games with vehicles, etc. The 25mm figures are more detailed,
> there are more available, easier to paint with significant detail (these are
> _player_ characters -- much loving care).
> 
>         Oh, yeah, and I have exclusively 25mm figures already.

My requirement for figures (beings) is that they are proportioned.
Except for some of the Mithril Middle Earth figs, I'm not sure I've
ever seen a fantasy/SF mini that was even close to looking human.

We ended up bashing figures from plastic models in 1:72 and 1:48
scale since they have human proportions (you can sculpt on/over the
original then make a quick mold).

BTW, to any IG types out there, what are the licencing requirements
for T4?  Is there some nasty up-front money, or can it just be a
royalty?  I cast resin for a living, and was thinking of doing some
traveller stuff if the start up costs won't kill me.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:05:24 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360

> was another one of those "canon" arguments. Canon says invaders first tried
> to capture the system's gas giant for refueling. Defenders protected it.
> 
>         But the Kuiper Belt, around and beyond Pluto's orbit, is a large
> repository of comets. Comets=ice=fuel. And a huge belt is impossible to
> defend. So if there wasn't a reason NOT to refuel there, that's where
> invaders would refuel. Which isn't canon, so there had to be a reason. To
> avoid the canon police, we agreed on the "shelf" in Tplate performance,
> inside Neptune's orbit (IIRC). The canonical research station on Pluto
> (which Don changed to Sylea for some reason) had to be supplied via
> old-fashioned reaction drives.

So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:16:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 30 Aug 96 at 19:58, Joe Walsh spewed:
> 
> > Until someone produces a Marine equivalent of the Military Academy,
> > I'm going to allow graduates of that Academy to choose enlistment in
> > Army or Marines at O1 upon graduation.  Why leave the Marines out of
> > the educational process when Merchants have their own academy...
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong...but wouldn't it more appropriate for 
> Marines to attend Naval Academy???  

Eh, the skills are the same (unless that is an errata item), so I figured 
the generically named "military academy" fit better than "naval academy" 
for marines.

But, it probably doesn't make much difference, given that the skills are 
the same.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 20:47 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #361

In-Reply-To: <9608301745.AA05578@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Various Topics on TD #355
> 
> 1.  ANTITRUST LAW...
> 
> On the other hand, the nature of a GW store that sold ONLY GW 
> products wouldn't be all that successful IMHO...  More likely a GW 
> store is only going to carry fast movers...  T$R, GW, White Wolf, 
> Star Wars & Star Trek because of the license recognition, Magic: The 
Gathering 
> of $$$$...  Little to no wargames, 

About 10 years ago, there were 4 games shops here in Leeds. One was part 
of a small chain of games shops, one sold mostly wargames and 2nd hand 
stuff, the others sold games in addition to their main business. 

Then GW arrived.

At first, everything was fine: GW sold pretty much the same things as 
the others, at roughly the same prices. 

Then they declared war.

They dropped their prices, sometimes selling at a loss in order to 
undercut the opposition. The wargames shop went mail-order only. One of 
the non-dedicated shops stopped selling games, the other cut the size of 
their games department. The last shop staggered on, then went out of 
business (possibly because of behind-the-scenes dirty tricks). Soon 
after, GW dropped all other products and sold only their own games and 
figures.

There is a slightly happy ending: a few years later, a new games shop 
opened to fill the vacuum (Travelling Man - excellent shop, BTW), and 
seems to Be doing pretty well. Also, the GW shop never seems to have any 
customers in it these days.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:11:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)

On 31 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> A reasonable compromise would be to provide a starmap (location/size/spectrum
>  only) because that can be done by observation from Sylea.  Define one axis
> of exploration/conquest as 'official', the other as 'open', and keep the
> official adventures to the official area.  Referees setting a campaign in the
> open area wouldn't have to worry about being overwritten; referees lacing the
> time/inclination to do their own thing could rely on a continuing series of
> adventures in the official area.

That's a nice idea.  IG could take a big chunk for their own official 
adventures, and they could set aside other pieces for licensees.  
Everything else would be open for individual referee (ie, unpublished) 
development.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:15:00 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Painting Traveller Starship Miniatures

In mail you write:

> At 09:38 pm 8/28/96 PST, you wrote:
>>Actually, you can produce some *very* eye-catching ships by using real
>>physics. I forget who did it, but I recall a *lovely* design using
>>liquid drop radiators. You basicly "spray" out a stream of drops of
>>molten metal near the nose of the ship. The stream of drops spreads a
>>bit on the way to the collectors nears the stern. In this design, the
>>streams are running parallel to some "vanes", that help reflect the
>>heat into space. 
>
>         Hmmm ... I asked at my hobby store for a molten-metal-sprayer and
> got this really funny look.

Hey, at the scale of most ship miniatures, you just paint the vanes to
match the color the metal drops would be at that point.  :-)


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:07:51 PST
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

In mail you write:

> I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
> found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
> government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
> ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
> drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...

How about "Imperialists"? :-)

"We of the Imperialist Party feel that what the worl needs is a strong
guiding hand..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:34:54 PST
Subject: Re: Imperial Hulk -Reply

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> NPC local (explaining things to other PCs as they stare at smoking hole
>> in ground where PC1 was standing): "That 'barbarian' is the god of
>> thunder, you idiots...."

>  How about(for a milleu 0 less so but more TNE oriented) the "God of
> Thunder" would be a very wealthy person in command of a meson site(and
> assorted nasties) whose brain got damaged during coldsleep and some of the
> first material he came along was mythologicial records printouts he was
> reading before they went to sleep(could have been a amateur historian...)
> so that's what they use to fill in the holes in their identity.

You've been watching the Batman cartton series on TV, haven't you? (For
those who haven't they have a millionaire who go just a bit *too*
fascinated with Zeus, and had a "lightning cannon" constructed to let
him throw thunderbolts)

Let's see, Iron Man is easy, just a *very* advanced set of Battle Dress
(what do you mean "it fits in an attache case"!). 

Anybody want to tackle other superheroes or villians?


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David P. Summers" <DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:04:41 -0700
Subject: Re: New Aslan sketch

The problem I have is that it doesn't look a like a fur covered
being and the "mane" just looks like a "big hair" hairdo.

The ones on the cover of the Aslan Alien module were much
better.

____________________________
(Disclaimer: Would NASA have ME speak for them?)
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:15:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #361

On 31 Aug 96 at 20:47, Andrew Boulton spewed:

> tricks). Soon after, GW dropped all other products and sold only
> their own games and figures.
> 
> There is a slightly happy ending: a few years later, a new games
> shop opened to fill the vacuum (Travelling Man - excellent shop,
> BTW), and seems to Be doing pretty well. Also, the GW shop never
> seems to have any customers in it these days.
> 

This is what I would rather suspect would happen to any vertically 
integrated game company with its own stores...at least if they were 
myopic enough to only carry their own products...even GW's stuff 
isn't going to be popular forever...even TSR has cranked out its 
share of lemons over the years...

OTOH, I could very easily see a game company buying/operating its own 
shops as a means of getting wider distribution.  First, they'd need 
to buy distributors though...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:15:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Real Physics and Thrusters

Thus spake Leonard Erickson:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:20:35 PST
>Subject: Re: Grav plates, gravity and thrusters

	[deletia...]

>It's rather more complicated. These things violate conservation laws
>just by *operating* unless you have them work in ways that don't much
>resemble the way folks expect them to work.

	Oh yeah, very true...

	[lots of physics deleted...]

>Obviously high speeds are *very* impractical.

	[even more physics deleted...]

>I'd really like to see some "thruster plates" that worked this way. It
>would require the typical "handwaving" physics, but it wouldn't do
>gross violence to the basics. And it'd make for some interesting
>playing.

	Your wish is my command!

	Actually, it is possible to design a thruster plate which does
not fire mass out of its exhaust like a rocket, and which does operate
the way folks expect it to, and which does not violate the basic
conservation laws of physics --- but it takes A LOT of energy.

	"Handwaving" physics: The drive emits some kind of field (ie,
massless particles) which carries a momentum, causing the ship to move
in an equal and opposite manner.

	Hard physics: Conservation of energy and momentum requires that
for a ship of mass "M" (measured in kilograms) and acceleration "a"
(measured in meters per second) the power "P" requirement of the drive
(in watts, assuming 100% efficiency) be

	P = c * (Ma)

where "c" is the speed of light (300,000,000 meters per second).

	This means that a scout courier with mass M = ~1,000,000 kg,
and acceleration a = 20 m/s, would require a power plant outputting
6,000,000,000 megawatts. Yow.

	Obviously, this figure can be lowered by cheating --- let the
power plant drive a small rocket motor which spews mass out the back at
a rate "R" (in kilograms per second). Now the optimal power requirement
becomes:

	P = c * sqrt( (Ma)^2 + (Rc)^2 ) - R * c^2

If you don't have a calculator that computes to 20 decimal places, you
can approximate the above equation (in the low-power region) as:

	P = (M * a)^2 / (2 * R)

You can actually get the power requirement down to 500 MW (the CT value)
if you set R = 400,000 kg/s. The only problem is, where do you get the
400 metric tons of ejectile every second that you need to fire out the
back of the rocket? NOW is when handwaving comes in handy!

> - -- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) 
>shadow@krypton.rain.com         <--preferred 
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -----
Rob Flammang

PS	If you want to see the derivation of the above formulae, please
email me directly. I've posted them to the list before (6 months or so
ago) on at least two occasions. But I think they are too technical for
most folks to actually /read/ --- or at least, they generated no discussions
previously! 8^)



------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:01:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)

Quoth Merrick Burkhardt:
> So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
> anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
> GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
> I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.

And that's fine, and anticipated by the canon-maintaining "fix" we came up
with on beta -- but it means you're wasting space on board your warships
by including limited special-use HEPlaR drives.  And at least HEPlaR is
more visible than thrusters (viz. extended discussions of plasma plumes),
so the defenders have an idea that you're coming.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Marine Officers

Thus spake Joe Walsh:

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:58:26 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Marine Officers

	[deletia...]

>Until someone produces a Marine equivalent of the Military Academy, I'm 
>going to allow graduates of that Academy to choose enlistment in Army or 
>Marines at O1 upon graduation.  Why leave the Marines out of the 
>educational process when Merchants have their own academy...

In the US today, marine officers are trained in NROTC programs at
colleges, or at the Naval Academy. They are not trained at the Military
Academy.

I always used the rules for NROTC and the Naval Academy found in High
Guard for my marine characters.

Just in case you care...

			-Rob


------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Aug 96 17:32:38 EDT
Subject: Brief questions, writing, ect....

	Still waiting for T4 here in Baltimore.... The Armory says that THEY
won't get it until sometime mid Sep.

	WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
	(hope that the mail goons don't goof my book up when they delever next
week. Yea, right....)

	So, for you all:  What about experence? Can you improve your skills AND
stats? Is level 6 the highest reachable on skills?
	For IG:  What about submitting writings for publication? I have the subs
guidelines for JTAS, but are you going to do books like GDW did? (Reason being
is that I have an IRIS-type story in MSWORD being compiled for printing,
someday...) When is JTAS hitting the racks, so to speak?

	Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).

	Jeff


	Life is a Hillary....


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:41:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Imperialist Party

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> How about "Imperialists"? :-)
> 
> "We of the Imperialist Party feel that what the worl needs is a strong
> guiding hand..."

"I'm Bob Edwards, and this is NPR, National Public Radio.  The Imperialist 
Party, having been founded only four years ago, today gained control of 
the Supreme Court, the final branch of government to become dominated by 
Imperialists.  It is said that Imperialist supporters will, within days, 
be convening the Third Continental Congress in order to abolish the 
current governmental structures and impose their own system."

[A few days later...]

"This just in:  The Third Continental Congress, having legally defined 
itself as the sole legal government of the land, has declared that 
something called the 'Imperial Establishing Document' will be the 
equivalent of the new government's constitution.  It is rumored that the 
first leader, or 'Emperor,' of the new government will be Marc W. 
Miller.  We have reporters scouring the country, trying to determine who 
this individual is."

[Hours later...]

"NPR has just obtained a copy of the Imperial Establishing Document.  
While most of it is what one would expect of such a document, 
inexplicably it decrees that NPR will now be known as 'The Traveller News 
Service,' or 'TAS'.

"We will have more news on this evolving story as it becomes available."


:)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 14:54:57 -0500
Subject: Multiple Attributes in the Skill System

On 08/31/96 at 01:08 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>First of all, I have one BIG gripe.  Whose idea was it to have the
>potential for multiple attributes applying to a single skill.  I thought
>the idea was to make it easy on new ref's.  I understand the reasoning as
>far as making the game realistic, but I don't think it makes the skill
>system any more playable.  I vote for a single attribute for each skill.
>(I know the voting is over, but I can still say it.)

I think I'm going to cancel your vote.  ;-> I like the added
flexiblity, and don't think it makes the skill system any *less* playable. 
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you'd have to choose which attribute to use
during chargen (or when a new skill is learned), right?  So once you
choose, then you're back to one attribute per skill.

Of course, the GM is ghod, so if you don't like multiple attributes just
outlaw them for your game.  ;->

Eris,
 still grumbling cause T4 hasn't come to his town.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 16:32:39 -0500
Subject: Skill System Fix

On 08/31/96 at 01:08 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>I don't like the idea of the soooo powerful attribute either, so
>I've thought about it a bit, and we need a method that's gonna give
>us the same base number when you add skill and attribute. 

If we keep the same number of dice for the various difficulties, I agree. 

>In the book they say an average character will have an attribute of
>7 and a skill of 2 or 3, yeilding an average targer number of 9 or
>10.

Yes, the expected value of 2d6 is 7, and 2/3's of the time the number will
be in the range of 5 to 9.  Historically most skills are in the range of 1
to 4.  So, I'd say the asset will almost always be in the range of 6 to 13
and cluster around 9 and 10. <g>

>So, the goal is to come up with a target number of 9 or 10 but by
>making the skill the "power" behind the number rather than the
>attribute...I have a potential fix.

>Here's the method.  First half the attribute(round up) and double
>the skill.  Now, for the average person we get an attribute of 4 and
>a skill of 4 or 6 for a target number of 8 or 10, really close to
>our 9 or 10 in the book.

This is an interesting idea well worth pursuing. 

It will be better to "bite the bullet" and pull this all the way back into
Chargen.  The attribute adds during Chargen will have to be halved, the
skills earned need to be doubled.  There is going to be an affect on
unskilled rolls..do you half the already halved attribute?  There might be
have to be changes in the number of dice for difficulty levels too.

Changes to consider
Base Attributes: Roll 2d3
Attributes earned during CharGen: cut numbers in half
Skills:  double number of skills earned
Unskilled tasks:  Think about this one!  Do you use full attribute or 1/2
of the already halved attribute?

>The examples from the list, Stef(12/1) and Vanna(9/3) would give
>target numbers of 7(Stef) and 11(Vanna) which is more realistic,
>IMO.  This will, I'm sure, upset some of the Traveller canon
>die-hards, but it does have the advantage of working.  :)

I added Jo, high attribute but NO skill, Gail *extremely* high attribute
low skill, and Lou average attribute average skill to the examples.

Examples:
- -- 
             Hlf Dbl               Chances of Success 
             Att/Skl   Asset  Easy  Aver  Diff  Form  Stag  Impo
Jo   (C/0)     6/0       6     67%   42%   18%    9%    2%    1%
                     or  3     17%    8%    1%    0%    0%    0%
Gail (F/1)     8/2      10    auto   92%   71%   50%   27%   16% 
Lou  (7/2)     4/4       8    auto   72%   43%   26%   10%    5% 
Stef (C/1)     6/2       8    auto   72%   43%   26%   10%    5%
Vanna(9/3)     5/6      11    auto   97%   82%   63%   38%   24%

How do these percentages of success strike you?

Eris, 
  who just called the local game stores and is still disappointed!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 31 August 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 366

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Imperial Scout Party
         2. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364
         4. Re: Multiple Attributes in the Skill System
         5. Re: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis
         6. Re: Imperial Scout Party
         7. Re:  Aslan?
         8. Traveller Chat
         9. Aslan Appearance (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364)
        10. Re: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis
        11. Re: Traveller Chat
        12. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        13. Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures
        14. Re: Astro-Lord-Help-Us Units.
        15. Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System
        16. Re: Marine Officers
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #363  Skills
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
        19. Analysis of Proposed 2d3 System Fix (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:36:54 -0700
Subject: Imperial Scout Party

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

>"Join the Imperial Scouts: the Big Tent Party.  With your help, we can 
>take over the world!"  Nah, too much like Pinky and the Brain. :)  
>
>Would anyone who is better at ad copy than I am care to take a crack at 
>coming up with a slogan for our new party?

(Establishing shots of a small farm community)

(Friendly voiceover)
Hi, we're the people of the Imperial Scout Party.. ready to led you into a
new edition, err.. millennium.  Our platform can be summed up in one word:

Orbital. As in Orbital Platforms

Yes, we control high orbit; and from here we can guide near-c rocks onto
your population centers.

(Farmtown suddenly eclipsed, them destroyed in massive impact)

(Deep voiceover)
the ISP, a bridge to the future or impact craters that'll have
planetologists drooling.. the decision is yours.



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:37:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

On 31 Aug 1996, jeff_michelle nort wrote:

> 	So, for you all:  What about experence? Can you improve your skills AND
> stats? Is level 6 the highest reachable on skills?

You can improve both skills and stats.  For skills, if you are awarded an 
experience point (or more) by the referee after an adventure, you can 
roll 1D against your skill level /if you used that skill during the 
just-concluded adventure/.  Roll equal to or greater than your skill 
level, and the skill increases.
If your skill level is higher than 6, you must roll a 6, then roll 
again. (If you don't roll a six the first time, then you don't advance a 
level in that skill).  If your two rolls are equal to or greater than 
your skill level, it is increased by one.
For improving characteristics, see the section in The Traveller Book.  
It's the same in T4. (That is to say, it is a difficult and lengthy process 
for the character.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:38:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364

>Just some food for thought (it goes with my first sentence):  why aren't
>the Aslan of 1000 years ago allowed to be different from the Aslan of
>CT/MT?  Hasn't our society changed drastically in that time?  Why can't
>they also have a past?

Society has changed. Clothing has changed.  Hairstyle has changed.  Thus,
I'll grant you the katana and strange armour.  Even the shorter fur (could
have been cut, after all).

Basic physical features haven't.  Different body types have been in and out
of fashion, but humans just haven't changed that much.  Thus, the muscular
structure and facial features are still off.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:51:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Multiple Attributes in the Skill System

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I think I'm going to cancel your vote.  ;-> I like the added
> flexiblity, and don't think it makes the skill system any *less* playable. 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you'd have to choose which attribute to use
> during chargen (or when a new skill is learned), right?  So once you
> choose, then you're back to one attribute per skill.

Under T4, the attribute to be used with the skill depends on the 
situation.  For example, diagnosing a patient as having a known disease 
would take Medical skill and Education.  Diagnosing a patient as having a 
never-before-discovered disease would take Medical skill and 
Intelligence.  Performing surgery would take Medical skill and Dexterity.

It makes sense to me.  And, it doesn't seem that difficult.  So the 
referee has to think about the task being performed before announcing the 
target number; doesn't seem like that much of a bother.  And, considering 
the added realism it brings to the game, I think it is a positive change, 
on the whole.


> Of course, the GM is ghod, so if you don't like multiple attributes just
> outlaw them for your game.  ;->

Exactly. :)

> Eris,
>  still grumbling cause T4 hasn't come to his town.

"Oh, you better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why!
'Cause Traveller is coming to town!"

"Marc's seen into the future,
And things won't be the same,
He's asked IG to write it out,
It will be the greatest game!"

"Oh, you better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why!
'Cause Traveller is coming to town!"



Sorry, couldn't be helped. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:42:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis

>Your points on usefulness of the attribute in personal situations is 
>good, but remember the reverse would be true as well.  A guy with an 
>upper crust accent, clothes, manner, etc, is going to have an awful 
>time finding somebody to sell him that black market PGMP-15 from the 
>local mob...

Maybe.  But so would a scuzzy stranger.  In a case like this _local_
connections would be the key factor.  And having the goods on a high-class
toff might be useful to the mob.  

I tend to use social standing a fair amount - but I _do_ use common sense. 
(Not that my players always agree...)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:18:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Scout Party

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> (Establishing shots of a small farm community)
> 
> (Friendly voiceover)
> Hi, we're the people of the Imperial Scout Party.. ready to led you into a
> new edition, err.. millennium.  Our platform can be summed up in one word:
> 
> Orbital. As in Orbital Platforms

Oh, no! :)

> 
> Yes, we control high orbit; and from here we can guide near-c rocks onto
> your population centers.
> 
> (Farmtown suddenly eclipsed, them destroyed in massive impact)
> 
> (Deep voiceover)
> the ISP, a bridge to the future or impact craters that'll have
> planetologists drooling.. the decision is yours.


Sounds good, Douglas.  Now, who's gonna bankroll it?  Oh, I know!  We'll 
just add this tagline:

(This message paid for by the Citizens for an Imperial Future.)

That way, we can get around campaign finance reform.  The Imperial Scouts 
("Imperialists" for short) will be the party, and Citizens for an 
Imperial Future will be one of our many contact groups raking in the soft 
dollars (soon to be Imperial Credits) for us. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:31:40 -0500
Subject: Re:  Aslan?

Well, what can one say?  This artist does not appear to have done his/her
homework.  The sketch fits some of the background on the Aslan, but much
appears to have been overlooked.  At least the thing does look violent, but
to me it does not look very Aslan.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:31:43 -0500
Subject: Traveller Chat

I've been thinking about something.  Occasionally, I enjoy IRC chatting with
some friends that I have made, and it occurred to me that I haven't seen an
IRD channel on undernet for Traveller.  I have no idea what it takes to make
a real IRC channel, but I do know that I can create a temp channel to chat
on.  So here's the deal, if you would be interested in talking on IRC about
Traveller on IRC, let me know, and if there is much interest in this, I'll
see what needs to be done to develop an official channel, but until then,
I'm gonna be on Saturday nights, starting about 6:00 to 7:00 Central Time
untill everyone decides to leave.  I'm gonna be on starting tonight, and if
you want to talk about Traveller, just query me, my nick is paulw , or join
#traveller.  I'm going there right now to create the channel.  Hope to see
you there.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  If you wanna chat, let me know when you can.  I'd
prefer the times in Central format, but if you can't convert it, I'll see
what I can do,just tell me whether the time you give me is your time, or CT.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:37:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Aslan Appearance (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364)

Quoth Rob Prior:
> >why aren't the Aslan of 1000 years ago allowed to be different from the
> >Aslan of CT/MT?  Hasn't our society changed drastically in that time?
> >Why can't they also have a past?
> 
> Society has changed. Clothing has changed.  Hairstyle has changed....
> Basic physical features haven't.  Different body types have been in and out
> of fashion, but humans just haven't changed that much.  Thus, the muscular
> structure and facial features are still off.

In defense of IG, I'll point out that Traveller has regularly changed
elements of the "canon" out from under us (ship design from CT to MT to
TNE to, now, T4; some discrepancies in the chronology, etc.).  Usually
this has appeared to be for the sake of making the game "better", not just
out of sloppiness. 

I'd certainly not object to "different"-looking Aslan (after all, you need
to give your artists _some_ free rein and not force cardboard cut-outs). 
If the Aslan are "re-designed", it just means some new excitement and
discovery for Milieu 0 (and 200). 

What I _DO_ object to is the blatant "space opera" character of the new
illustrative style -- as I wrote previously, I'm starting to wonder if
GDW is deliberately playing to a different demographic.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:59:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Re: T4: Characteristics Analysis

On 31 Aug 96 at 23:42, Rob Prior spewed:

> >Your points on usefulness of the attribute in personal situations
> >is good, but remember the reverse would be true as well.  A guy
> >with an upper crust accent, clothes, manner, etc, is going to have
> >an awful time finding somebody to sell him that black market
> >PGMP-15 from the local mob...
> 
> Maybe.  But so would a scuzzy stranger.  In a case like this _local_
> connections would be the key factor.  And having the goods on a
> high-class toff might be useful to the mob.  

Granted... but a rogue is more likely to be able to make the 
connections than Edward, Duke of the Trailing Realm...whose only 
contact with the masses is to remind his stable boy to clean out the 
stables today...

> I tend to use social standing a fair amount - but I _do_ use common
> sense. (Not that my players always agree...)

True...  just wanted to point out that in some cases, high social 
standing could be a handicap in an adventure...unless of course, the 
local noble has connections with the mob... (Possible adventure 
seed...)

Stu


Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:13:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

Sounds like a good idea.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:09:44 PST
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

In mail you write:

Note, all the figure below are swiped from part 4 of the sci.space FAQ.
The figures in parens following the long ugly figures are the generally
used "rule of thumb" values for when you are doing quick & dirty
calculations.

> 1. What is the precise speed of light?

The speed of light is now a *defined* constant. That is, any
measurements of it now merely tell you how accurate your equipment is,
rather than giving a more accurate answer. This happened in the late
70s or early 80s.

	299792458 m/s	  (3e8)  -- speed of light in vacuum "c"

> 2. Can anyone give me rough dimensions of the Solar system (i.e.:
> distance from earth to moon, and size of each of the orbits around the
> sun).

	384401 km	 ( 4e5)  -- Mean Earth-Moon distance
	1.496e11 m	 (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)
	6371 km		 (6400)  -- Mean radius of Earth
	6378 km		 (6400)  -- Equatorial radius of Earth
	1738 km		 (1700)  -- Mean radius of Moon
	5.974e24 kg	 (6e24)  -- Mass of Earth
	7.348e22 kg	 (7e22)  -- Mass of Moon
	1.989e30 kg	 (2e30)  -- Mass of Sun

	Titius-Bode Law for approximating planetary distances:

	    R(n) = 0.4 + 0.3 * 2^N Astronomical Units

	    This fits fairly well for Mercury (N = -infinity), Venus
	    (N = 0), Earth (N = 1), Mars (N = 2), Jupiter (N = 4),
	    Saturn (N = 5), Uranus (N = 6), and Pluto (N = 7).

>
> 3. What is an AU (distance wise) in Trav? - Is it a standard astro unit
> in real life?

	1.496e11 m	 (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)

It's a real unit. As you can see, it's the average distance between the
Earth and the Sun. For various reasons, it's *much* easier to determine
distances in the solar system in terms ofAUs than in any sort of
absolute units. 

> 4.  Is a parsec (if I remember correctly) about 3.26 light years?

	206264.806 AU	  (2e5)  -- \
	3.2616 light years (3)	 --  --> parsec
	3.0856e16 m	 (3e16)  -- /

> If so why is this so significant?

"Parsec" comes from the way the figure is determined. Distances to the
nearer stars are measured by using parallax. You measure the position
of the star against the *distant* starts and galaxies. Them you wait
until earth is on the opposite side of its orbit and measure the
position agaim. It'll have shifted, due to the slightly different angle
you are looking at it from. The closer the star, the bigger the shift.

For an example of how this works, hold up a finger at arm's length,
withg one eye closed. Note where it appears to be against the
background. Now close that eye and open the other. The position will
have shifted.

A parsec is the distance an object would have to be at to show a
parallax of one second of arc. And the value is actually something like
the cotangent of 1 arc-second times one AU.

> Isn't this the standard size of a subsector hex?

Yes.

>  If so, why?

They probably figured it was a "good" value. In this part of the
galaxy, the average distance between star systems runs around 5-6 light
years, or about 2 parsecs. Note that this is a good match to the 50%
chance of a star in any given hex. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:45:11 PST
Subject: Re: Painting Traveller starship miniatures

In mail you write:

> Also, the heat loads for Traveller spaceships are (probably) dominated by
> waste heat from the power plant (see the recent long, inconclusive radiator
> thread on gdw-beta), so sunlight reflection/thermal emission isn't very
> important. 

I just spotted the exact figure in the sci.space FAQ when I was looking
up the "astrological[sic] units".

	1370 W / m^2	 (1400)  -- Solar Constant (intensity at 1 AU)

So that's 1.37 kW/m^2. So you get a megawatt for every 730 m^2. That's
a circle a bit over 30 meters in diameter. 

I'd say that's important, if only to the extent that if it is ignored,
it'll render the living quarters unihabitable rather quickly. :-)

After all, the machinery spaces can run a lot hotter, the equipment
would be designed for it.

> re: camoflage and colors for military ships: visual spotting is somewhat
> important, in fact; TNE (and presumably T4) passive sensors integrate
> information over a variety of wavelengths, and there are situations where 
> reflected visible light is an important part of a ship's signature. Not the
> most important part, usually - thermal IR is probably where ships are most
> easily detected - but fairly important. I'd say any EMM-equipped ship 
> probably implicitly has a black/dark grey hull, non-EMM ships are dominated
> by their thermal emission and can be any color you like. 

Yep. And any ship that is "stealthed" that way is going to have
*severe* problems with heat loading. 

I think that if you have the time, the best way to "sneak" into a
system is to find a likely "dirty snowball" far enough out that your
jump signatature isn't likely to be detected, nudge it into a parabolic
(or even hperbolic) orbit that passes somewhere near the target and
then just dig in. You'll be just another long period comet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:59:28 PST
Subject: Re: Astro-Lord-Help-Us Units.

In mail you write:

> If you convert a measured paralax (which has an error) to, say, light years,
> you depend upon the accuracy of the AU (a measured quantity with an error)
> and the speed of light (measured: yet more error).

Actually, the speed of light has been *defined* for 15 or 20 years. 

> One presumes, given the accuracy of jump systems, that along with jump drive
> some rather more accurate methods of measuring interstellar distances have
> been developed by year 0.

I made a post about it a while back. For "crude" measurements (e.g.
preliminary survey of all stars within a few hundred light years) you
just use a decent sky cam and shoot a full sphere set of plates. Then
you make a one parsec jump and repeat. Better yet, have several ships
jump out a parsec each along all six axes. 

The parallax measuresments over a 1 to 2 parsec *baseline* get kinda easy.

For more accuracy, you set up a system of observatories, and link them
with a laser or maser baseline (you have to wait 6.5 years, but you get
the length of the baseline *very* accurately). Then you compare plates
as before, using time hacks in the link beams to symchronize stuff.

This should give you accuracies far higher than the accuracy to which a
jump can be calculated.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:37:10 PST
Subject: Re: Astrological Units and the Solar System

In mail you write:

> One AU is 149.6 thousand Mm (or 149.6 million km, pick your poison).

No, it's 149.6 Gm (giagmeters). BTW, "giga" is supposed to be
pronounced as in "gigantic". Not that anybody does...

> This is because one of the better ways to calculate distance to a stellar
> object is by using parallax.  Converting from parallax shown to parsecs in
> range basically involves dividing one by the parallax observed.  And in case 
> anyone is curious, a parsec is about 206265 AU. 

It's *exactly* cotan(1 arcsec) AU.

:-)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:49:16 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

In mail you write:

> This gives a nice feel for the Marines... You can't lead until you have
> followed.  Puts the Noble fops in their place.  (I imagine some Marine Drill
> thusly:  "M'Lord Philip? Duke of Nova Cartago? GET DOWN AND DO PUSH-UPS
> UNTIL THIS PLANET LEAVES ITS GOD-ASSIGNED ORBIT!!  If that *pleases* you..." 
> )

Given what little I know about practices in the British Navy, the DI is
likely to just call him "Cartago", (I believe that they've used "Ensign
Wales" at one time...)

> I have also come up with new ranks for the Imperial Navy Ground Force
>
>    E-1  Private             O-1  Force Ensign
>    E-2  Private, 1st Class  O-2  Lieutenant
>    E-3  Lance Corporal      0-3  Force Commander
>    E-4  Corporal            0-4  Major
>    E-5  Sergeant            0-5  Lieutenant Colonel
>    E-6  Gunnery Sergeant    0-6  Colonel
>    E-7  Ship's Sergeant     0-7  Brigade General
>    E-8  Fleet Sergeant      0-8  Force General
>    E-9  Master Fleet Sergeant
>         Senior Master Fleet Sergeant
>         Command Master Fleet Sergeant

You forgot "Fleet Sergeant of the Corps" :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:08:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #363  Skills

About the example of the guys performing brain surgery, speaking AS a
surgeon, it is more important for that operaotr to have that dex of 12....
trust me, there isn't much difference between Med-3 and Med-4, primary care
guys probably know more... but you'd want a surgeon to operate on you, not
the know-it all internist.
My vote is in favor of the current system, but people can tinker around with
it for their own campaigns.

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:43:17 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359

In mail you write:

>>How bout Imperial Scouts!  Or is that just a bit too presumtuous?

>         Naw... it sounds like Boy Scouts with a bad case of megalomania :).

I guess you aren't old enough to recall the story in Playboy (back in
the 60s) where someone came up with cheap nukes, and before you knew
it, *everybody* had them. At one point Congress is debating a law to
ban them, and get persuaded not to by the large number of privately
owned missiles cruising overhead. Including ones from the BSA!

Lovely illustration of missiles woth Boy Scout insignia cruising over
the capital. :-)

Shades of Tom Lehrer and "Who's Next?" :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 20:00:08 -0500
Subject: Analysis of Proposed 2d3 System Fix (Long)

Paul, 

Having more time than sense this afternoon, I ran an analysis of your
proposed change to the CharGen/Skill's rules.  I divided unskilled attempts
by 2 on the first row of each Attribute level, and used the attribute alone
on the second row.  I think either would work, it just depends on whether
you want to make default attempts *really* hard or just hard.  I went up to
Attribute Level 8, because you can pick up some attribute benefits..I don't
think more than 2 would work too well with this system I went up to Skill
Level 10, actually 12 should be very possible in this system, but I wimped
out (it was supper time <g>).

Take a look, and tell me what you think.  

- -- 
                           Chances of Success

 2d3                1.5d6  2d6    2.5d6  3d6    3.5d6  4d6
 2-6                2-9    2-12   3-15   3-18   4-21   4-24
Attrib Skill Asset  Easy   Aver   Diff   Form   Stag   Impos
   2  /  2     1      0     0      0      0      0      0
   2  +  0     2      6%    3%     0      0      0      0
   2  +  1     3    auto    8%     1%     0%     0      0
   2  +  2     4    auto   17%     4%     2%     0%     0%
   2  +  3     5    auto   28%     9%     5%     1%     0%
   2  +  4     6    auto   42%    18%     9%     2%     1%
   2  +  5     7    auto   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   2  +  6     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   2  +  7     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   2  +  8    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   2  +  9    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   2  + 10    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%

   3  /  2     2      6%    3%     0      0      0      0
   3  +  0     3     17%    8%     1%     0%     0      0
   3  +  1     4    auto   17%     4%     2%     0%     0%
   3  +  2     5    auto   28%     9%     5%     1%     0%
   3  +  3     6    auto   42%    18%     9%     2%     1%
   3  +  4     7    auto   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   3  +  5     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   3  +  6     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   3  +  7    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   3  +  8    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   3  +  9    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   3  + 10    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%

   4  /  2     2      6%    3%     0      0      0      0
   4  +  0     4     33%   17%     4%     2%     0%     0%
   4  +  1     5    auto   28%     9%     5%     1%     0%
   4  +  2     6    auto   42%    18%     9%     2%     1%
   4  +  3     7    auto   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   4  +  4     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   4  +  5     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   4  +  6    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   4  +  7    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   4  +  8    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   4  +  9    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%
   4  + 10    14    auto  100%    99%    91%    74%    56%

   5  /  2     3     17%    8%     1%     0%     0      0
   5  +  0     5     50%   28%     9%     5%     1%     0%
   5  +  1     6    auto   42%    18%     9%     2%     1%
   5  +  2     7    auto   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   5  +  3     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   5  +  4     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   5  +  5    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   5  +  6    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   5  +  7    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   5  +  8    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%
   5  +  9    14    auto  100%    99%    91%    74%    56%
   5  + 10    15    auto  100%   100%    95%    83%    66%

   6  /  2     3     17%    8%     1%     0%     0      0
   6  +  0     6     67%   42%    18%     9%     2%     1%
   6  +  1     7    auto   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   6  +  2     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   6  +  3     9    auto   83%    57%    385    17%    10%
   6  +  4    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   6  +  5    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   6  +  6    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   6  +  7    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%
   6  +  8    14    auto  100%    99%    91%    74%    56%
   6  +  9    15    auto  100%   100%    95%    83%    66%
   6  + 10    16    auto  100%   100%    98%    90%    76%

   7  /  2     4     33%   17%     4%     2%     0%     0%
   7  +  0     7     84%   58%    29%    16%     5%     3%
   7  +  1     8    auto   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   7  +  2     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   7  +  3    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   7  +  4    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   7  +  5    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   7  +  6    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%
   7  +  7    14    auto  100%    99%    91%    74%    56%
   7  +  8    15    auto  100%   100%    95%    83%    66%
   7  +  9    16    auto  100%   100%    98%    90%    76%
   7  + 10    17    auto  100%   100%   100%    95%    84%

   8  /  2     4     33%   17%     4%     2%     0%     0%
   8  +  0     8     95%   72%    43%    26%    10%     5%
   8  +  1     9    auto   83%    57%    38%    17%    10%
   8  +  2    10    auto   92%    71%    50%    27%    16%
   8  +  3    11    auto   97%    82%    63%    38%    24%
   8  +  4    12    auto  100%    91%    74%    50%    34%
   8  +  5    13    auto  100%    96%    84%    62%    44%
   8  +  6    14    auto  100%    99%    91%    74%    56%
   8  +  7    15    auto  100%   100%    95%    83%    66%
   8  +  8    16    auto  100%   100%    98%    90%    76%
   8  +  9    17    auto  100%   100%   100%    95%    84%
   8  + 10    18    auto  100%   100%   100%    98%    90%

It looks like this idea would work, but you certainly would have to
increase the skills a character earned.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #366
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 1 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 367

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [none]
         2. Re: Multiple Attributes in the Skill System
         3. Re: Traveller Chat
         4. Re: Imperial Scout Party
         5. Re: Task system
         6. An Andre Norton Psi System: A T4 Alternative
         7. Re: Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)
         8. Re: Traveller Chat
         9. I feel unloved...
        10. Nobles
        11. Characteristics vs. Skills
        12. It's Miller Time, in more ways than one
        13. 15 or 25 mm
        14. Re: Traveller Chat
        15. Re: I feel unloved...
        16. re: 15 or 25mm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:35:54 -0500
Subject: [none]

Joe Walsh wrote:

>
>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:18:21 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: T4 Task System
>
>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, R.D. Elliott wrote:
>
>[Discussion of agreement with previously surmised importance of native
>talent - snipped]
>>         On the other hand, let's take me & my old fencing coach, Herr Obst.
>> Despite the fact that I am several inches taller than Herr Obst, am
>> somewhat skinnier (both of which really help in epee), and have the usual
>> youth-related physical advantages, even at the peak of my form (four-five
>> years ago, when I was fencing for McGill), I wouldn't have had a snowball's
>> hope in hell of beating the guy.  Despite my superior characteristics, his
>> superior skill is such that I will have to wait until he's 95 or so before
>> having a hope of beating him.
>
>Hmm.  I don't know enough about fencing (heck, I don't know /anything/
>about fencing!) to be able to discuss it with you. :(
>
>However, perhaps this can springboard us into a discussion of . . .
>
>>         It's an interesting question, actually... in some areas training is
>> all-important, in other's it's native talent.  Maybe a system that left the
>> weighting of each up to the ref might better reflect reality.
>
>Is there some simple rule-of-thumb we could use to define when skill is
>of primary importance vs. when characteristics are of primary importance?
>An example might be physical skills vs. mental skills (I know, that
>doesn't hold up - it's just an example).
>
>
>- -Joe
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>


        Well, at the risk of getting flamed, what Traveller calls Skills,
Vampire subdivides into talents, skills, and knowledges.  To give you the
really short version, talents are things that you're just naturally good
at, skill requires practice, and knowledges require study.  Talents
includes Brawl, for example, whereas Skills includes firearms, and
knowledges includes Law.

        Maybe Talentish skills in T4 could be weighted more towards
Characteristic, whereas Skillish skills would go more towards Skill?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 20:33:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Multiple Attributes in the Skill System

On 08/31/96 at 05:51 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Under T4, the attribute to be used with the skill depends on the 
>situation.  For example, diagnosing a patient as having a known disease 
>would take Medical skill and Education.  Diagnosing a patient as having a 
>never-before-discovered disease would take Medical skill and 
>Intelligence.  Performing surgery would take Medical skill and Dexterity.

Oooo, that's different from what I thought.

>It makes sense to me.  

Well, it does to me too, but...

>And, it doesn't seem that difficult.  

...Paul was right.  It *is* more complicated than a single
attribute.  I must rethink how I was going to organize the character sheet.

>So the referee has to think about the task being performed before
>announcing the target number; doesn't seem like that much of a
>bother.  And, considering the added realism it brings to the game, I
>think it is a positive change, on the whole.

I'll have to rethink how I was going to handle task generation too. You're
right though, it does sound like a positive change.

>> Eris,
>>  still grumbling cause T4 hasn't come to his town.

>"Oh, you better watch out,
>You better not cry,
>You better not pout,
>I'm telling you why!
>'Cause Traveller is coming to town!"

<snip>

I just hope it gets here before Christmas! <g>

>Sorry, couldn't be helped. :)

Sure it could!  You with, how many copies now..., four, five!  Just have to
rub it in don't you? <g>

It's not fair, I tell you!  You rich Imperialist Party plutocrates with
your multiple copies, while all of us little people are scratching to find
even one copy and making do with used little black books.  Beware the wrath
of the Fellow Travellers!  Our time *shall come!

I say, Travellers of the world unite!  All we have to gain is our Hardback
T4's!  <g>

Eris, 
  poor, underprivilaged Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:11:07 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I've been thinking about something.  Occasionally, I enjoy IRC chatting with
> some friends that I have made, and it occurred to me that I haven't seen an
> IRD channel on undernet for Traveller.  I have no idea what it takes to make
> a real IRC channel, but I do know that I can create a temp channel to chat
> on.  So here's the deal, if you would be interested in talking on IRC about
> Traveller on IRC, let me know, and if there is much interest in this, I'll
> see what needs to be done to develop an official channel, but until then,
> I'm gonna be on Saturday nights, starting about 6:00 to 7:00 Central Time
> untill everyone decides to leave.  I'm gonna be on starting tonight, and if
> you want to talk about Traveller, just query me, my nick is paulw , or join
> #traveller.  I'm going there right now to create the channel.  Hope to see
> you there.
> 
> Oh yeah, one more thing.  If you wanna chat, let me know when you can.  I'd
> prefer the times in Central format, but if you can't convert it, I'll see
> what I can do,just tell me whether the time you give me is your time, or CT.


I am interested in the IRC chat, but could you please use either GMT time or 
give the Local time plus difference from GMT (eg Sydney is +10 hours 
GMT)? Time management allways make my mind explode.


> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:17:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial Scout Party

On 31 Aug 96 at 18:18, Joe Walsh spewed:

> That way, we can get around campaign finance reform.  The Imperial
> Scouts ("Imperialists" for short) will be the party, and Citizens
> for an Imperial Future will be one of our many contact groups raking
> in the soft dollars (soon to be Imperial Credits) for us. :)

I can help you with campaign finance reform...  We won't let them 
know its for a campaign...

I'll handle the finances.  Just send the checks to 

Stuart L. Dollar
c/o  Imperial Scout Party Headquarters
123 Afulandis money 
Rsoonparted AZ 85260

Make the checks out to "CASH." 

:-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:18:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Task system

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, R.D. Elliott wrote:

>         Well, at the risk of getting flamed, what Traveller calls Skills,
> Vampire subdivides into talents, skills, and knowledges.  To give you the
> really short version, talents are things that you're just naturally good
> at, skill requires practice, and knowledges require study.  Talents
> includes Brawl, for example, whereas Skills includes firearms, and
> knowledges includes Law.

Hero System, James Bond, and several others do this as well.  I like the 
subdivision...


>         Maybe Talentish skills in T4 could be weighted more towards
> Characteristic, whereas Skillish skills would go more towards Skill?

That could work.  Too bad the Default Skills don't neatly devide this.  
They should...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:50:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: An Andre Norton Psi System: A T4 Alternative

This is an alternate psi system for Traveller.  It is based on the psychic
powers described in Andre Norton's various SF novels, and is an attempt to
systematize this type of psi and to make it a playable as possible.  This
system is in no way compatible with the existing psi rules.  In addition,
no rules for learning psychic powers are included, because when I run
Traveller I let the PCs each have one or two points of Merits.  Merits are
special powers, or advantages.  Mind Touch, 200,000 Cr, having an eidetic
memory or having a computer implant are all examples of 1 point Merits.
PCs can have up to 2 points of Merits (two point Merits are things like
Illusion, extensive cyborg implants, or being very wealthy). Merits work
well to make characters very individual and to make sure one character is
not a psychic prodigy while none of the others have anything to make up
for their lack of psychic powers. 

This system does not use psi points (a mechanic I personally hate)
Instead, all normal abilities are useable at will.  As I see it, any
uncontested use of an psychic ability should be as easy as walking.  This
fits with the books and reduces die rolling. Contested abilities (ie where
the target has a chance to resist) obviously require die rolls.  Some of
the abilities listed below are called strenuous abilities.  These
abilities require a special effort to perform.  These activities can be
performed whenever desired, but: 

1) The psychic must not be otherwise involved in strenuous activity
(including combat) wen attempting to perform them. 

2) When a strenuous psychic power is used the character is very tired. The
character is at half endurance and -1 to all task rolls until the
character has rested for at least 30 minutes.  In addition, no additional
strenuous psychic abilities may be used until after the character has
rested. 

Contested Rolls:  The psychic rolls an opposed task using the average of
Intelligence and Endurance (round up) + the value of the Merit (+1 or or
+2) vs the subjects average of Intelligence and Endurance (round up).  The
subject also add the Merit value of any psychic powers possessed.  Like
all other default rolls, if the subject is not a psychic the average of
their Int and End is halved.  So a psychic with an Int of 8 and End of 5
with the +1 Merit Mindtouch would roll 7+1 = 8 + 1D6.  If the subject of
their psychic endeavor was a non-psychic with the same Int and End (8 and
5) the subject would roll (7/2) = 4 + 1d6.  Clearly the subject is likely
to loose. 

Mindtouch (+1 Merit):

The most basic psychic power is Mindtouch.  Mindtouch consists of the
ability to send and receive thoughts, images and emotions.  Every psychic
possesses Mindtouch.  Two psychics can communicate much more rapidly and
in greater detail using Mindtouch than they could with speech.  If two
psychics know each other well they can also use Mindtouch to communicate
over long distances (up to Continental Range [5000 km]. Mindtouch works
regardless of linguistic or even species barriers. 

However, it is only possible to use Mindtouch to communicate with another
psychic.  Non-psychics simply can't receive thoughts. Psychics can use
Mindtouch to scan non-psychics.  Scanning allows the psychic to determine
the approximate distance, direction, and level of sentience of any mind
within Very Long range [5 km].  Each mind must be scanned one at a time.
Sentients and animals larger than insects will all be detected, though the
psychic can choose to only look for sentient (or non-sentient) minds.
Mindtouch will also allow a psychic to determine if any of these minds are
psychic. 

If the psychic desires a single, individual mind can then be scanned.
Scanning an individual allows the psychic to determine the individuals
basic emotional state and to catch vague glimpses (the GM can be as vague
and enigmatic as desired as long as some truthful inf. is given) of the
thoughts at the from of the individuals mind.  For non- sentients scanning
will reveal only such basic information as <Hungry> or <cold, tired,
afraid>.  Ordinary Mindtouch cannot be used to pull a person's computer
password from their mind, but it can be very useful in determining
motivation and in getting useful hints. All forms of scanning require some
concentration and cannot be done while performing any strenuous activity
or when concentrating on other tasks. However, communication between two
psychics is as easy as talking. Neither communication nor scanning are
strenuous activities. 

Strenuous uses of Mindtouch:

Suggestion:

Mindtouch can be used to implant a suggestion in a non-psychic's mind. The
idea will be believed unless it is obviously nonsensical or ridiculous,
but it does not have coercive force.  A guard might believe a suggestion
that their leader already knows the psychic and it is OK to let them
through the check-point, but the guard would ignore a suggestion to commit
suicide or to attack their leader.  Suggestions appear as thoughts,
memories and ideas in the head of the subject and are treated as if they
were normal thoughts, ideas, or memories.  Suggestions must be made to a
single perceptible target, so a psychic may only give a suggestion to one
subject at a time.  This is a contested roll. 

Probe:

The psychic can probe for a single piece of information which is well-
known to the subject and which lies close to the surface of the subject's
thoughts.  The probe must be phrased by the player as a specific question,
like "What is their computer password" and the answer will contain only
the desired information.  If the subject to not know the answer to the
question the probe will reveal this information too.  Probing is a
contested roll if used against another psychic. 

Illusion (+2 Merit)

Illusion includes all of the abilities listed under Mindtouch.  In
addition, the psychic can create realistic sensory illusions.  These
illusions are mental and physical in nature so they cover all five sense,
including touch.  However, they are in no way real or solid.  If, for some
reason a subject tries to press on or try to reach through an illusion,
the illusion will vanish. Someone shaking the hand of a human disguised as
a Vargr would feel fur, but an illusionary knife would do no damage, and
an illusionary wall would not impede movement (if someone actually tried
to walk through the wall). 

Creating an illusionary disguise for a single willing individual or for an
object no larger than a motorcycle is a non-strenuous task.  The disguise
must conform to the rough contours of the subject of the illusion.  A
human could be disguised as an Aslan, but not as a Hiver or a K'Kree. 
Illusions work on all non-psychics who view them, an will also fool
cameras and other sensors which do not actually physically contract the
subject of the illusion.  When a psychic perceives and illusion make a
difficult perception roll. if the roll succeeds the psychic is aware of
the illusion and can see through it at will.  Illusions last as long as
the psychic is thinking about them (this does not mean concentrating on
them).  Illusions vanish during sleep, or if the psychic becomes involved
in highly demanding or strenuous activity like combat. 

Strenuous Illusions:

Making a single target invisible for  5 minutes.

Disguising a group of up to 7 individuals or objects (once again this
illusion will last until the psychic stops thinking about it). 

Creating a large illusion like a wall in a corridor, or a different
registry number and color scheme on a ship. 

Place an illusion on a unwilling or unsuspecting living target (making
someone suddenly look and feel old and withered can be a very effective
distraction).  This is a contested roll. 

No psychic can maintain more than one illusion at a time. 

Physical Psychic (+2 Merit)

Physical Psychic includes all of the abilities listed under Mindtouch. In
addition, physical psychics can probe for psychic residues in objects.
This ability is called psychometry.  Suing psychometry on an object will
replay images of the object in use, and the emotions of those holding it. 
Scenes with significant emotional content will be the most vivid.  Highly
detailed information is not usually available, but a psychic could run
their hand over the surface of a box, and if they were looking for a
secret compartment they might well receive the impression of hands
pressing two designs in sequence to open the concealed latch. 

Also, while it would be obvious that a knife had been used as a murder
weapon, and likely that the murder had happened outdoors at night, the
identity of the murderer or the victim might not be revealed and the
psychic might be left with clues like the murderer was very angry at the
victim and held the knife in his large, scared left hand.  psychometry is
a non-strenuous activity. 

Strenuous uses of Physical Psychic powers:

Erase or change the psychic impressions of an object

Move a single small (under 2 kg) object.  The psychic must either be able
to clearly perceive the object, or must have used psychometry on it before
and know exactly where it is. A visible object can be no further than 5
meters away, and a known object must be within 50 meters. 

The object can moved slowly, as if dragged by an unseen hand. It can move
through space, but once again, slowly, at a speed no faster than 5 km/hour
(human walking speed).  The psychic can aim and fire a weapon like a gun
once using this ability, but cannot use a weapon like a knife to do
anything more damaging than slowly cutting bonds.  Moving the object
demands intense concentration and the psychic can perform no other tasks,
including talking, while doing so. 

Sources:

The Zero Stone

Uncharted Stars

Moon of Three Rings

Exile of the Stars

Storm Over Warlock

Ordeal in Otherwhere

Forerunner Foray

All by Andre Norton




------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:49:29 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)

 
> Quoth Merrick Burkhardt:
> > So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
> > anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
> > GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
> > I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.
> 
> And that's fine, and anticipated by the canon-maintaining "fix" we came up
> with on beta -- but it means you're wasting space on board your warships
> by including limited special-use HEPlaR drives.  And at least HEPlaR is
> more visible than thrusters (viz. extended discussions of plasma plumes),
> so the defenders have an idea that you're coming.

There's more space wasted in the freshers for magazine storage.  The
one thing HEPlaR *drives* are is tiny.  (0.357% of hull volume per
g)

Also, the drives will only be used in the cloud for little station
keeping, besides, I'll be gone by the time the light from my drive
plume reaches your sensor!

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:03:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

Well, about four or five of us enjoyed an evening of chat on IRC undernet
Saturday night.  For those of you who couldn't be there, we missed you.

I think a Traveller Channel on IRC would be a good thing to help discuss the
game, and therefore, I'm going to try to get an official Undernet channel
set up.  If you think this is a good idea, please send me your name, IRC
chat name, and your Email Address.  Also, please include the times most
comvient for you to be on IRC.  At least 10 of you will be put on the
channel application, but I need as many names and times to know when to have
an Op on the channel.  By sending your name, and if you are put on the
application as a supporter, you are agreeing to the following.

G) Supporter's list :
	This is a list of people who support you as channel 
   manager of this channel and who will frequent the channel.
   You may want to CC them a copy of your application.
   - Please do NOT include yourself as a supporter.
   - Please do NOT use 2 (or more) different email addresses 
     of a user as being 2 (or more) different supporters.  
     Each entry in this list must be a different user.

   ---------------------------------------------------------------
   		Nickname	|	E-mail address            
   ---------------------------------------------------------------

As I said earlier, I think this is a great idea, and I think it will be good
for Traveller.  Who knows, maybe we can get Marc, Ken, or some of the staff
to visit every now and again.  Hope to hear from you.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:47:27 -0400
Subject: I feel unloved...

...not one comment about anything I've posted! The Incredible Hulk has got
more attention around here lately than I have <sniff>.
        Of course. he's a lot bigger than I am...
                                 Allen Shock

------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:35:39 -0400
Subject: Nobles

I'll remind the peasants on the list hear that Imperial nobility (feudalism
and nobleese oblige) as well as the Xboat network helped nurture the Third
Imperium to its height (and fall?).  Nobles do have advantages in society
(including contacts with all sorts, either directly or indirectly), but they
pay for them in the sense that they must serve in the best interests of
Imperial society (noblesse oblige).  The ordinary joe can always call it a
day and go home.
   Enough of bashing the Peerage!

------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:59:24 -0500
Subject: Characteristics vs. Skills

Dear Traveller fans,

I just wanted to clearify a few things...


***** Task System *****

The task system was set up so that someone with a natural apptitude could
perform a SINGLE action almost as well (or sometimes better) than a
professional.

Example: Bob has a Dex of 9 and Pistol-2.  Dirk has a Dex-7 and a pistol-4.
Taking a singel shot Bob (with natural ability) can shoot as good as Dirk
(the pro).

Now if we all read the rules we will find that when a character performs
multapul actions in a round attributes are devided by the number of actions
(round down). This is where we determin the pros from the naturaly gifted.

Example: Taking three shots, Bob has to make three rolls at 4 or less
(11=F73=3D3, rounded down, +1 for his skill).  Dirk may take three shots at =
7
or less (7=F73=3D2, rounded down, +5 for his skill).

This rule can be applied to all skills.  Professional, however, can do
multaple things at once!

***** 1/2 D6 *****

If you cannot buy a half D6, use the folloing meathod.  Get a differant
color D6 and roll.

1-2 =3D 1
3-4 =3D 2
5-6 =3D 3

***** Critical Hits/Failures  *****

To make a critical Hit one must roll 1's on all dice rolled, however, to
roll a critical Failure all you have to roll is two 6's.  Therefore, as
difficult goes up your chance of Critically hits goes down while chance of
Critical Failure goes up.

***** Aslian Sketch  *****
=46rom time to time we will be posting things just to get a reaction.  A tes=
t
one might say.  just because you see something, its not cannon until it is
in print, and then again we might change that later if Marc so wishes.

Thanx,

Ken Whitman
President of Imperium Games

P.S. - I would like to see some talk on Year 0.  What do you feel is going
on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way the government is set
up, etc.) What is it like to live in Year 0 (with honor and a mans word as
gold, etc.)  What are the corporations like, what do Travellers feel.  Let
us know!



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:19:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: It's Miller Time, in more ways than one

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
>found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
>government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
>ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
>drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...

This could be an excellent marketing approach, however.  "Join the
Millerites; it's really Miller time."

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 15 or 25 mm

>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>

>What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
>15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
>switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
>ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...  

No, no, I'd much prefer 25mm, but them my eyes are aging.  I'm already
looking for a stereo-microscope (about 40x; you'll remember them from high
school biology class) to help me see what I'm painting, and regularly use a
fixed-mount magnifying glass (only about 10x) for that purpose.

My personal life aside, however, 25mm makes more sense for the games I tend
to run.  If there's combat requiring miniatures, it's usually among fewer
than ten figures, in a diarama setting.  I usually make the vehicles out of
cardstock.  Sometimes I use HO scale plastic figures and vehicles, but 25mm
lead figures are still easier to identify (and I haven't found any plastic
figures in battle dress -- the only ones in vacc suits are Airfix's Apollo
mission set).  Larger battles tend to get played with Azhanti High Lightning
or even Striker, using counters instead of miniatures, and a map instead of
a big diarama.  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:19:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

Darryl Adams wrote:
>
>I am interested in the IRC chat, but could you please use either GMT 
>time or give the Local time plus difference from GMT (eg Sydney is +10 
>hours GMT)? Time management allways make my mind explode.

Not wanting to sound stupid but, (too late) never having attended or even 
bothered looking for an IRC chat zone where would one find this?

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:22:33 -0700
Subject: Re: I feel unloved...

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>...not one comment about anything I've posted! The Incredible Hulk has 
>got more attention around here lately than I have <sniff>.
>         Of course. he's a lot bigger than I am...
>                                  Allen Shock

Sometimes you get a bigger responce with a pity letter than you get with 
something serious.  If there's a problem people always bitch if it's all 
right only one in 1000 people will say so.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 08:17:19 -0700
Subject: re: 15 or 25mm

Traveller has long been associated with 15mm figures.  In fact, my first 15s were probably 
Martian Metals Trav adventurers.  AHL and Snapshot were in 15 scale.  But look around you 
and you'll find that most every other rpg is doing 25s.  Therefore, most of my miniatures 
collection is 25s.  Which means, when I need a tap-man in a barroom I can probably find 
something in 25 without looking too far.  Try that with 15s.  Or better yet, try to find a 
human female in 15? 

What are IG's plans, I wonder?  If they ever intend to put out another ASL-like product 
(I hope they do), it would probably be a large boxed affair somewhere in the $35 price 
range.  For that kind of money, I'd prefer 25mm.  

One last thing, I agree completely with Merrick Burkhardt's statement about well 
proportioned figures.  No one makes figures better than Mithril.  Hmmm, maybe they could 
produce a Traveller line?

Ensign John

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #367
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 1 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 368

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: An Andre Norton Psi System: A T4 Alternative
         2. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         3. Re: Imperial Scout Party
         4. De lurking & Sylean Federation
         5. Death by Starship Fuel Accident
         6. RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 
         7. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         8. Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)
         9. Re: Real Physics and Thrusters
        10. MPGN FTP Archive
        11. Re: Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360) (fwd)
        12. Year 0
        13. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
        14. T4 Miniatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:45:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: An Andre Norton Psi System: A T4 Alternative

This was pretty good, and being familar with the Norton version of Psi I
found it pretty accurate, but not terribly Travellesque enough for my
tastes.  Perhaps one day I will neaten up and post my CT Psi rules, which
attempt to capture the feel of CT Psi while expanding upon the use and
flexibility of Psionics.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:37:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Matt Machtan wrote:

> Dear Traveller fans,
> 
> I just wanted to clearify a few things...

Great!

[multiple vs. single action tasks example snipped]
> This rule can be applied to all skills.  Professional, however, can do
> multaple things at once!

Ah, okay.  So, my sensor ops guy can detect two, three, four, or even 
more ships if he has enough skill and gets lucky - while a person with 
high attribute and low skill hasn't nearly as much of a chance.
Makes sense.  Thanks for clearing that up!

It's just such a different way of looking at things than what I am used 
to that I probably won't understand all the implications until I've 
played the game extensively.  I was thinking of multiple actions as if 
they only related to making attacks.

BTW, it would be helpful if this were noted in the Tasks section next 
printing, rather than (or in additon to) in the Ground Combat section.
Although the Multiple Tasks rule in Ground Combat /does/ say that a 
character can perform any task (not just firing a gun, in other words) 
during a single combat round, this is not mentioned again in Space 
Combat.  Some of us (Me!  I do!) need to have such key rules shoved in our 
faces before we take notice of them. :)

[Side Note:  Good Lord, I'm just not used to learning a new RPG system 
after all of these years.  Even though T4 is pretty close to being CT, 
the differences keep tripping me up.  Every time I assume something is 
so, it turns out not to be.  I've got to get it through my head that this 
is a NEW game, not CT.]
[It would be interesting to hear from those who are completely new to 
Traveller - are they picking this stuff up right away?  Is it just all 
the Traveller "baggage" I'm carrying with me that is impeding my full 
understanding of the new system?]


> P.S. - I would like to see some talk on Year 0.  What do you feel is going
> on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way the government is set
> up, etc.) What is it like to live in Year 0 (with honor and a mans word as
> gold, etc.)  What are the corporations like, what do Travellers feel.  Let
> us know!

I like thinking about what the "common Traveller" is going to experience 
in year 0.  The idea of honor being so important...it is one I like, and 
one I wish were prevalent right now all over the world.  

Let's see...there are still dishonorable people, there always will be 
(Rogues, Pirates, etc.).  But, if honor is still something to be relied 
upon, it must be pretty common.  There must not be much risk of running 
into a dishonorable person - else no one would trust anyone they didn't 
know very well, and the whole flavor of the game becomes like it is in 
Year 1100.  

So, Rogues and such are uncommon.  And, they might be easily recognizable 
in some way - some sort of "dishonorable persons" list distributed by 
TNS?  Hmmm.

One way to keep the number of dishonorable persons to a minimum is, of 
course, the use of ritual combat.  I'm glad T4 uses this method.  If you 
lie and get caught, the one you lied to can challenge you to a duel.  
Rogues will have to be careful of who they cross - it better be someone 
who is less skilled than they are! :)

So, the Rogues that survive will tend to be strong, cunning, fast, highly 
skilled - Darwinian natural selection applied to the scum of the universe!

But, back to how the average Traveller lives.  He lives in a polite 
society, if he is of middle class or above (do the lower classes consider 
honor to be of importance?  Perhaps...perhaps as much as, or more than, 
the upper classes do!  Sticking together, helping eachother over rough 
spots...).  Brashness is probably greeted with freezing contempt.  

Is it an egalitarian society?  Or are there severe differences between what 
is expected of (and allowed to) each gender?  

What about aliens?  Are they treated well as equals by this 
human-dominated society?  The existance of the Staple Gun might be a clue 
in this...

Can a Traveller use his word as his I.O.U.?  Can a Traveller arrive at a 
starport creditless, and still get a place to stay for the night on the 
strength of his word that he will repay the favor at a later date?  What 
about meals?

Hmmm.  This bears more thought.  I can't wait to see what others think 
of, though!
    

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:47:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Scout Party

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> I'll handle the finances.  Just send the checks to 
> 
> Stuart L. Dollar
> c/o  Imperial Scout Party Headquarters
> 123 Afulandis money 
> Rsoonparted AZ 85260
> 
> Make the checks out to "CASH." 
> 
> :-P

Wow...you sound just like a real politician!  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:18:31 +0000
Subject: De lurking & Sylean Federation

Greetings;

I have been following the Traveller Digest for a few weeks and have decided
to join the full mailing list.

My travelling goes back to the orginal three book set in '79, though I got
them second hand. I did not get into MT; but I did pick up the TNE. I have a
fascination for designing things, so FF&S, like the Trillion Credit
Squadron, the orginal Striker equipment design book, and High Guard, has
been getting the most wear. 

I am not inclined to rapid responses, so I may be a little late on some of
the recent topics. I am still cogitating on the Fighters discussion, but I
have formulated my take on the Imperial establishing document. The
perception that I have long held was that the Sylean Federation was in many
ways more like the current UN than anything else. It functioned great with a
small, monolithic group of countries. Expansion has brought too many
divisive cultural and politcial conflicts. The military is actually
comprised of 'loaned' units form the various member worlds, resulting in a
wide variation in troop quality and quantity, incompatable equipment and
contradictory lines of command. Each world is biasing trade rules to help
their freinds and disrupt their enemies. For all the great press the
Federation gives itself, most of the actions the Federation takes are mostly
after the fact confirmations of local military actions (re: Bosnia). It is
in this light that Cleon issues the following statement:


Civilization is sliding back towards The Long Night.  Our Federation has
seen many new members, hungry for peace and prosperity, but such goals seem
now further away. We have seen piracy grow; we have watched trade slow. We
have seen the Council bog down in endless dispute and debate while
conditions worsen. I have worked hard for the Federation, committing  my
industires, businesses and wealth to the future, only to be faced, in the
final analysis, that the Federation is following the Ramshackle Empire
instead of the Grand Imperium of Stars. As descendant of Emperors and heir
to the Iridium Throne, I must, my ancestors demand it of me, take
responsibility and action, to reclaim the Iridium throne. 

I call upon the Nobles to live up to their ancestral duties. I call them to
be Representatives of the Iridum Throne to their worlds, and to be Advocates
of their worlds before the Iridium Thone.  I call upon the Nobles  to
assemble with me to plan and implement a medium of exchange that will
simplify and expand interstellar commerce. I call upon the Nobles to
assemble with me to plan and implement a military organization to secure our
borders, to suppress  piracy, and to ensure domestic peace, that each world
may be safe, secure and prosperous.  I call upon the Nobles to meet with me
in the future at intervals, that the needs of Civilization may be made known
and action take to satisfy those needs.

We must act, or we must endure the curses of our descendants from the
blackness of a new Long Night. 


The view of the Noblitiy that Cleon has is different from how the Nobles
1100 years later view themselves. Here the nobles are placed into a unique
position, being both the representatives of the Emperor to the world
containing their fief and the advocates of that same world before the
Emperor. By doing this, Cleon implicitly makes the nobles the head of the
local Imperial political machinery. Cleon also establishes a consistent long
term long presences that can be neutral in local disputes. Local governement
can change every third tuesday if it wants to; the interface to the
Imperium, the local noble, is fixed and stable. I have never taken the
social standing of a PC to mean their personal standing, but that of their
family. A social standing of Baron may mean that Great Uncle Matt is a
baron, not the PC. Cleon's action can also create some interesting local
politics. Example: after several years of effort, Adolf, a charismatic
dictator has managed to take contol of Deutschine. He can do as he wants.
Whoops; no, there is Baron Bonhoffer, watching out for the Imperium's
interests (taxes, stable trade, general peace). Adolf can not <openly> touch
the Baron, who holds the title by will of the Emperor. Adolf can not
<openly> interfere with the Imperial machinery, the Baron heads that. Lots
of ways to go from here. 

Cleon, a good business person, next plans to establish a standardized
currency to help trade. I do not think the Federation had an independent
currency, resulting in very unstable pricing of goods and services as more
and more worlds, of differing tech levels joined. A stable government needs
a stable currency (re: Russia).

Cleon's statement leaves the military last and defines it in terms of the
security of all the worlds. As I said before, I picture the Sylean
Federation to be much like the UN. Sylean Security Forces, like UN
peacekeepers, are assembled as needed from member worlds, with diverse
training, equipment and often conflicting orders from home governments and
Federation leaders. Using the same indirection that many member worlds had
used, pointing one way while moving troops another, by summoning the NOBLES
to develop the military, he is trying to sidestep transient local politics. 

The last call he makes is to have the Nobles continue to meet "at intervals"
to discuss the state of Civilisation, which he has equated to the Empire. He
does not provide an exact interval, but leaves that open. He has setup the
Moot, and provides the nobles a sense of participating the overall running
of the Imperium. 

The Emperors and the Nobility changed, across 1100 years, leading to the
final collapse of the Civil War.

Cleon would not have succeeded just on nostalgia alone. 

Hitler became German Prime Minister because of the economic and social
collapse that followed World War I. He was able to manuver multiple
fragmented special interest groups around due to the economic, social and
political fears of the time. Musolini did the same in Italy. Mao succeeded
in China because he had a consistent steady approach for government instead
of fragmented warlords.

To really define the Imperial Establishing Document, we need to really get
into the social, political and economic structures of the Sylean Federation
and how they failed. 

Now, how does this fit with your image of the early days of the Imperium?   



  


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 08:46:08 -0700
Subject: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

After working hard to get my NPC engineers aboard my PC's starship I now
need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  My concept: As the NPCs are
conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.

Questions:

1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

Senario:  "Captain, the ship just shunted to battery power and I can't raise
Zathra on the comm.  She was in engineering working on the power plant 2
minutes ago."
Mosaic Tapestry
___________________________________________________________________
									  TRAVELLER
				      Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 01 Sep 1996 00: 59:24 CDT
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 11:56:42 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Dear Traveller fans,
: 
: I just wanted to clearify a few things...
: 
: 
: ***** Task System *****
: 
: The task system was set up so that someone with a natural apptitude could
: perform a SINGLE action almost as well (or sometimes better) than a
: professional.

Designer's Notes!!!  I love these things, it's always nice to know how
things came about.

: Now if we all read the rules we will find that when a character performs
: multapul actions in a round attributes are devided by the number of actions
: (round down). This is where we determin the pros from the naturaly gifted.
: 
: This rule can be applied to all skills.  Professional, however, can do
: multaple things at once!

The problem is that multiple actions are usually only performed during
combat.  When you need something fixed (engines, cuisinart, crew
members), you're usually concentrating on just that task.  This is when
you get into the realm where being more skilled doesn't help you as much
as having higher attributes.

: ***** Critical Hits/Failures  *****
: 
: To make a critical Hit one must roll 1's on all dice rolled, however, to
: roll a critical Failure all you have to roll is two 6's.  Therefore, as
: difficult goes up your chance of Critically hits goes down while chance of
: Critical Failure goes up.

Seems a little anti-climatic doesn't it?  8)

: ***** Aslian Sketch  *****
: From time to time we will be posting things just to get a reaction.  A test

I think you definitely got a *very strong* reaction with this one.

: P.S. - I would like to see some talk on Year 0.  What do you feel is going
: on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way the government is set
: up, etc.) What is it like to live in Year 0 (with honor and a mans word as
: gold, etc.)  What are the corporations like, what do Travellers feel.  Let
: us know!

I don't know about others on this mailing list, but I was waiting to see
what was released before commenting on it.  It's difficult to put
together a mock-up like this when your only guidelines are 1000 years in
the future, and a few paragraphs in a rulebook.  You'd probably spawn a
discussion if you posted some ideas and asked for comments and
extrapolations based on what you told us (similar to when Marc asked for
the declaration of the Third Imperium).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:29:37 PST
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

In mail you write:

>         Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).

Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't even
have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the Jack Ryan
timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?

*First* we infect your computer with Virus. *Then* we start dropping
near c rocks. 

And if none of those make you repent, we'll confiscate all your
Traveller materials!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:16:13 PST
Subject: Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)

In mail you write:

> On 31 Aug 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>
>> A reasonable compromise would be to provide a starmap
>> (location/size/spectrum only) because that can be done by
>> observation from Sylea.  Define one axis of exploration/conquest as
>> 'official', the other as 'open', and keep the official adventures to
>> the official area.  Referees setting a campaign in the open area
>> wouldn't have to worry about being overwritten; referees lacing the
>> time/inclination to do their own thing could rely on a continuing
>> series of adventures in the official area.

> That's a nice idea.  IG could take a big chunk for their own official
> adventures, and they could set aside other pieces for licensees.
> Everything else would be open for individual referee (ie,
> unpublished) development.

That's how CT started out. But by the time they came up with the
"freebie" map of the known galaxy, they'd managed to wind up with the
Imperium completely surrounded by either their own products, or
"licensed" ones.

I'd say that the IG sectors should form a sort of sprawling web. The
licenced sectors could attach to this, but with "free" sectors
in-between. That way there would *always* be "free" sectors adjacent to
official ones. 

Manipulate stellar placement a bit so the the "backbone" has lots of
shorter jump routes along it, that gives an excuse for the main thrust
of exploration to go that way. The "free sectors may have nice chains
of jump routes, but there may be a single longer jump seperating them
from the "mainstream" areas. But that's all it takes. Lok at any town
that gets bypassed by the Interstate. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:34:01 PST
Subject: Re: Real Physics and Thrusters

In mail you write:

>         Hard physics: Conservation of energy and momentum requires that
> for a ship of mass "M" (measured in kilograms) and acceleration "a"
> (measured in meters per second) the power "P" requirement of the drive
> (in watts, assuming 100% efficiency) be
>
>         P = c * (Ma)
>
> where "c" is the speed of light (300,000,000 meters per second).
>
>         This means that a scout courier with mass M = ~1,000,000 kg,
> and acceleration a = 20 m/s, would require a power plant outputting
> 6,000,000,000 megawatts. Yow.

The heck with using it that way. If you can interconvert energy and
momentum that way, do it like this:

Rig up a scaled down mass driver that gives a metal slug a momentum of
1 kg m/s towards the stern. This gives the ship a momentum of 1 kg m/s
in the opposite direction. Now convert the momentum of the slug into
energy according to the stress energy tensor, E = p*c. So

	E = 1 * 3e8

So we get 300 megajoules of energy from destroying that momentum. Who
needs fusion? 

It gets even worse when you look at the stress energy tensor term for
angular momentum. One unit of atomic spin is equivalent to either 6.5
kg m/s of momentum, 22 micrograms of mass or 2 gigajoules. 

> PS      If you want to see the derivation of the above formulae, please
> email me directly. I've posted them to the list before (6 months or so
> ago) on at least two occasions. But I think they are too technical for
> most folks to actually /read/ --- or at least, they generated no discussions
> previously! 8^)

I don't recall seeing them before. I got my figures above from one of
Dr. Forward's articles. I'd just as soon *not* see energy/momentum/spin
conversions available in Traveller, as it makes the amount of energy
available something that is simply mind-boggling.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Sep 1996 17:49:22 GMT
Subject: MPGN FTP Archive

Who runs the MPGN gaming archive, and how long does it take them to clear
files?

I uploaded some Traveller files 12 days ago, and nothing has moved.  There's
files there (for other systems) from even earlier.

Does anyone know where else I can upload Traveller files?  I have:

- - several deckplans in 25mm scale
- - several decplans in 15mm scale
- - character generation, language analysis, and mercenary HyperCard stacks
- - combination Scouts/WBH/World Tamer custom Mac program that details a system
down to colour maps for every planet
- - sector mapping program (again for Mac)


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:59:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Thruster Tactics (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360) (fwd)

Quoth Merrick Burkhardt:
> Also, the drives will only be used in the cloud for little station
> keeping, besides, I'll be gone by the time the light from my drive
> plume reaches your sensor!

Not so!  The Oort Cloud, I'd guess, is no more than a light-day out, if
that.  If you're refuelling there for a jump to the inner system, and
emitting drive plumes, I ought to have six day's notice at least.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:48:35 -0400
Subject: Year 0

>P.S. - I would like to see some talk on Year 0.  What do you feel is going
>on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way the government is set
>up, etc.) What is it like to live in Year 0 (with honor and a mans word as
>gold, etc.)  What are the corporations like, what do Travellers feel.  Let
>us know!
        Howdy Ken! I'll be happy to discuss Year 0 (Getting ideas to use in
the Year 0 Mileau Book? :) ) as I've been doing a lot of thinking about that
lately. I've been re-reading Clayton Bush's excellent article "A Concise
History of the Third Imperium" from TRAVELLER'S DIGEST # 18. I get the
impression that the switch from the Sylean Federation to the Third Imperium
wasn't an overnight thing; people didn't go to bed on the last day of year
651 SF and wake up Imperial citizens on 001-0. Cleon must have had this in
mind from the very beginning. I seriously doubt that Cleon was just this
humanitarian guy who wanted to restore interstellar culture and all that.
Personal Power could have been a motive, maybe greed. Maybe Cleon was one of
those who lived in the past, so to speak, and wanted to restore the glory of
his ancestors.
>From all accounts, he was certainly ruthless in many respects in the way he
went about consolidating his power. I'm sure there were a few enemies who
were silenced in one way or another.
        The thing that intrigues me is what did the average citizen think of
all this? There were undoubtably those who opposed Imperialization (is that
a word?), and many probably felt "Things are going fine as is-why mess with
it"? What happened to those with opposing viewpoints? (This may come up in
my campaign, as my wife, who has a Master's degree in History, doesn't like
the Imperium because it's so "imperialistic". I'm sure her character will
follow a similar path.)
        Still, this is going to be an exciting time to adventure in. The
Imperium is, what, about 30 star systems at this point? A LONG way to go to
get to where it will be. My characters are going to be explorers helping to
expand that frontier. I'm really looking forward to this.
                                Allen Shock

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:36:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> After working hard to get my NPC engineers aboard my PC's starship I now
> need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  My concept: As the NPCs are
> conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
> fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

Cold, very cold. Freezing cold. Near absolute zero cold. It would rapidly
vaporize of course. I would imaging the sound (for the few seconds one
would be alive) would be that of rapidly escaping gas but much much
louder, a roaring/rushing sound.

> 
> 2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

Well, at the least it would seriously shorten the 1 year duration of
fusion reactors. (see below for worse cases)


> 
> 3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"


Only the fact that hydrogen is very, very volatile and the most likely
outcoume of such a massive internal leak would be a *massive* expolsion,
potentially destroying the ship.


> 
> Senario:  "Captain, the ship just shunted to battery power and I can't raise
> Zathra on the comm.  She was in engineering working on the power plant 2
> minutes ago."
> Mosaic Tapestry
> ___________________________________________________________________
> 									  TRAVELLER
> 				      Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 1 Sep 96 10:50:24 MS
Subject: T4 Miniatures

So, about this whole 15mm vs 25mm thing:

Is it overly greedy on my part to want BOTH?  I use 25mm for roleplay; its 
easier to identify with and relate to a 25mm figure as a representation of your 
character; more detail, easier to see (and lets face it; I'm too damned old to 
paint tiny details on 15mm figures).  On the other hand, I am proud and pleased 
to admit that I do a lot of combat in my games, and sometimes this gets large 
and complex enough to be a Striker/wargame situation.  That's when I want the 
15mm stuff.  Fortunately, I have some of the old Martian Metals minis, and a 
lot of "standard" 15mm wargaming minis (mostly W.W.I Germans, Brits and French, 
with some civil war, Roman Empire, Vikings and American indians thrown in for 
fun.  

What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of standard 
NPCs and a squad or two of marines.  Basically, look to the careers in the T4 
book as your figure archetypes; I'd like two male and two female examples of 
each career as a starter.  For NPCs, a few 3 or 4 figure packs focused on 
specific roles would be good; a pack of Navy crew, a pack of Navy officers, a 
pack of Merchant crew, a pack of Mercenaries, a pack of Government Officials, a 
pack of Marines in Battledress, a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of 
Starport Tavern Thugs (come on, everybody uses these!), a pack of Typical TL12 
Civilians, and a pack of Belters (of course).  With the 6 4-packs of character 
figures, and the 10 packs of NPC figures, you would have most all of your 
normal needs met.  Add to that four different sets of Aliens, and you have a 
basic 20-pack assortment of Traveller figures to please one and all.  Add to 
that a nice resin-cast Air Raft and G-Carrier, and life would be good indeed.

What I _do not_ want is a pile of oversculpted, overarmed, overarmored, 
OVERPRICED Games Workshop crap.  I have asked people at several mini companies 
about SciFi miniatures, but they all seem to think that the Games Workshop 
archetype is what everyone wants.  I'm sure there is a good market for it, but 
there are plenty of people that don't want Space Orkz or similarly concepted 
pre-teen fantasies.

As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24 
character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of Marines in 
Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five 
different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles 
would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.

Unfortunately, I realize this probably won't happen.  But I would like to dream 
about it.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #368
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 1 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 369

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. (MT)Ship design there now!!
         2. Re: Trav Chat
         3. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         4. Adventure ideas, etc.
         5. Re: T4 Miniatures
         6. Trade System Update
         7. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
         8. [none]
         9. Re: T4 Miniatures
        10. Traveller programs
        11. Language Tables Online
        12. Multiple tasks
        13. RE: Characteristics vs. Skills
        14. Re: Possible PBEM?
        15. Re: Possible PBEM?
        16. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
        17. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
        18. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
        19. Re: T4 Miniatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:39:11 +0200
Subject: (MT)Ship design there now!!

        Now you can get my ship design if you go to my home page and klick
the (M)Traveller extension in the table. It is not the prettiest but it will
do for now. 
        Swnd me feedback so that i will know what you think of it.

	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Namn : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:37:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Trav Chat

OK, I guess I need to clarify some things here.  First off, the chat room
will be on Undernet, and will be called #traveller.  How often I will be
there, I don't know, but I will try to be present for all of the times
listed below.  Next, the room is not an official room yet, I need sponsers
first, so when you get logged on, you have to join #traveller.  I don't
think we were on the channel listing the other night.  OK, one last plea for
channel sponsers; you aren't committing yourself to anything but being there
occasionally.  I do need some volunteers for ops, but for now, whoever gets
there first will be the op (as we are not an official channel).  There is a
chance that we wont get a channel right off cause they may not want to give
us one till they see that we are gonna be active, that's why I want to know
who will be there and when, so we can show them that the channel will be active.

Now, the times I will be on.  All of these are based on when you gus can be
on.  I may not be on for all of these times, that's why I need to know which
are best for you guys.  Also, if anyone is willing to be an op, let me know
what times you will be on, and I'll include them in the official faq.
Here's the times I could possibly be on:

                    CST                 GMT
 Mon - Fri      1200 - 1300         1800 - 1900
Either of:
 Mon - Fri      0800 - 1000         1400 - 1600
 Mon - Fri      1400 - 1600         2000 - 2200

 Fri            2100 - 0000     Sat 0300 - 0600
 Sat            1900 - 2200     Sun 0100 - 0400

Well, there it is, I really don't want to clutter up TML with this stuff, so
if you're interested, EMail me direct.  I'll post updates to TML to let you
know what's going on.

Tnks


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:37:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

>From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
>Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:59:24 -0500
>Subject: Characteristics vs. Skills
>
>Dear Traveller fans,
>
>I just wanted to clearify a few things...
>
>
>***** Task System *****
>
>The task system was set up so that someone with a natural apptitude could
>perform a SINGLE action almost as well (or sometimes better) than a
>professional.
>
>Example: Bob has a Dex of 9 and Pistol-2.  Dirk has a Dex-7 and a pistol-4.
>Taking a singel shot Bob (with natural ability) can shoot as good as Dirk
>(the pro).
>
>Now if we all read the rules we will find that when a character performs
>multapul actions in a round attributes are devided by the number of actions
>(round down). This is where we determin the pros from the naturaly gifted.
>
>Example: Taking three shots, Bob has to make three rolls at 4 or less
>(11=F73=3D3, rounded down, +1 for his skill).  Dirk may take three shots at =
>7
>or less (7=F73=3D2, rounded down, +5 for his skill).
>
>This rule can be applied to all skills.  Professional, however, can do
>multaple things at once!
>
<<<major snippage>>>
>
>Ken Whitman
>President of Imperium Games
>
Thanks for the clarification, Ken.  I now see somewhat the importance of
this, but for the example we have been using, the Survey skill, I don't know
how important multiple actions are.  I understand the useage (and honestly,
I had forgotten when I posted my fix) for the combat setting, and I would
agree, but the problem IMO is really with the non-combat skills.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: cshort@cix.compulink.co.uk (Christopher Short)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 96 19:56 BST-1
Subject: Adventure ideas, etc.

In-Reply-To: <9609011219.AA09818@NS.MPGN.COM>
First I must say it is nice to see a firm that produced a game so closely 
involved in a newsgroup.

The main point of this email/message is that i was wondering on the net 
is there anywhere to find Traveller adventures - for any version, T4 
would be nice, but at the moment I seem to be able to find all sorts of 
links, ship designs, gear, whatever, but the actual sites with full 
adventures are far and few between.

I am hoping that someone may be able to point out the errors of my ways 
and lead me to some good sites.  The best I have found so far are :
The Imperium Games Site (Obviously)
Travellers Aid Society
Traveller Chronicle.



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:07:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

On 1 Sep 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

[snip]
> What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of standard 
> NPCs and a squad or two of marines.  Basically, look to the careers in the T4 
> book as your figure archetypes; I'd like two male and two female examples of 
> each career as a starter.  For NPCs, a few 3 or 4 figure packs focused on 
> specific roles would be good; a pack of Navy crew, a pack of Navy officers, a 
> pack of Merchant crew, a pack of Mercenaries, a pack of Government Officials, a 
> pack of Marines in Battledress, a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of 
> Starport Tavern Thugs (come on, everybody uses these!), a pack of Typical TL12 
> Civilians, and a pack of Belters (of course).  With the 6 4-packs of character 
> figures, and the 10 packs of NPC figures, you would have most all of your 
> normal needs met.  Add to that four different sets of Aliens, and you have a 
> basic 20-pack assortment of Traveller figures to please one and all.  Add to 
> that a nice resin-cast Air Raft and G-Carrier, and life would be good indeed.

Steve,

You've covered a lot there, but since we're dreaming anyway, I'd add:

- - a complete set of bar room figures (bar, tables, bartender, 2 servers)
- - a TAS set! Go whole hog!  Do the typical TAS office (a few desks, a 
  reception desk, some clerks, some bedroom acouterments for those freebie 
  overnight stays, some terminals, etc.) - this could be used for LOTS
  of other situations - not just TAS offices - but calling it that would
  be nice for sales, and unity of the Traveller line.
- - An Imperial Court Set!  Nobles, throne, the whole bit.  Again, this would
  be useful for other settings as well - any time you need a majestic court
  scene.

I could go on and on.  The gist is, I want diorama type stuff.  I got a 
lot of use out of the Fantasy setting bars, kegs, beds, etc.  Why not have 
similar sets for our favorite Sci Fi game?


> What I _do not_ want is a pile of oversculpted, overarmed, overarmored, 
> OVERPRICED Games Workshop crap.  I have asked people at several mini companies 
> about SciFi miniatures, but they all seem to think that the Games Workshop 
> archetype is what everyone wants.  I'm sure there is a good market for it, but 
> there are plenty of people that don't want Space Orkz or similarly concepted 
> pre-teen fantasies.

Loud, vociferous agreement!


> As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24 
> character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of Marines in 
> Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five 
> different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles 
> would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.
> 
> Unfortunately, I realize this probably won't happen.  But I would like to dream 
> about it.

When it comes down to it, it probably won't happen.  But, if Marc's 
dreams for Traveller come true, it could.  If it gets to be on the level 
of Star Wars and Star Trek, there would be enough money in the market for 
companies to do such things.

Here's hoping.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Sep 1996 20:09:14 GMT
Subject: Trade System Update

I've uploaded a more recent version of my detailed trade system.  I had to
split the original document into two, because my HTML editor balked at larger
files, but it is substancially unchanged.

In fact, the only changes are that I have uploaded about half the good types
(eg. produce, bulk carbohydrate, skins & furs, etc.).

URL is:
http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/trade.html

Tables are at:
http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/tradeTables.html

Or you can take the easy way and access it through the "Traveller at Don
Mills" link at IG's "Other Sites" page.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 14:13:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

On 09/01/96 at 08:46 AM,  Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com> said:

>need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  

I assume you don't want to destroy your ship and you want it to either be
repairable or at least able to limp into a port. <g>

>My concept:  As the NPCs are conducting maintenance on the power
>plant of this 138 year old ship the main fuel feed line bursts
>flooding the compartment with refined fuel.

>Questions:

>1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

Insufficient data!  <g> What are you using for fuel?  Are you using
hydrogen to power a hot fusion plant?  Are you using water to fuel a cold
fusion plant?  Is the fuel under pressure and how much?

If it's hydrogen then it might be cryogenic, or it might be
preheated.  Either way if you vent a lot H2 into an O2 rich
atmosphere you'll get fire and explosion.  A small, slow leak would be
detected, if your equipment was working correctly, and could be dealt with,
of course if you didn't detect the leak you'd soon have an explosive
situation.  The effects of a smaller leak under a lot of pressure would
*start* as a jet of almost invisible flame across the room, but soon the
ship goes boom.

On my ships the fuel of choice is water, but your engineers won't be
drowning.  <g> The water is also used as coolant and reaction mass.  Water
is already very hot when it enters the engine room.  It runs through
several cycles around the engine room becoming:  steam, live steam, and
eventually plasma.  The effects of a fuel leak depend on where in the
process it takes place.  It could be a stream of scalding water, but that's
not as dangerous as if the leak occurs later in the process.  A small leak
could result in a jet of almost invisible steam (or plasma) lancing across
the room.  A large rupture would cause an explosion and basically parboil
anybody in the engine room.  Not much different from hydrogen in the end,
but a little more forgiving...perhaps. <g>

>2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

Insufficient data!  <g> It depends on what kind of power plant you are
using and how it was designed.  The lose of fuel flow *should* cause the
plant to shutdown gracefully.  It's the lose of coolant that will really
get you!  If the component parts run hot (and they probably do) then losing
coolant will do anything from cracking to slagging them down.  OTOH, a
starship's power plant should have been built with redundant automatic and
manual safety systems, designed to survive most accidents.

>3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

Think Challenger.  A big engine room explosion *could* blow a ship apart. 
Even a smaller explosion would be devastating and felt though out the ship. 
Minor leaks or explosions could still be deadly *in* Engineering and are
likely to be *felt* throughout the entire ship.

>Senario:  

The ship suddenly shudders and lurches throwing everyone to the deck. The
lights on the Bridge flicker and come back dimly as the backup systems kick
in.  The boards around the control room are covered with flashing red
lights.  Bleeding from a gash on his head Byner turns to you and says...

>"Captain, the ship just shunted to battery power and I can't
>raise Zathra on the comm.  She was in engineering working on the power
>plant 2 minutes ago."



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: smithw@bing.televar.com
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:04:29 -0700
Subject: [none]

Please remove my name from the mailing list.

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:20:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

 
> As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24 
> character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of Marines in 
> Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five 
> different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles 
> would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.
> 
>Unfortunately, I realize this probably won't happen.  But I would like to dream 
> about it.

Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
so desire.  A guy we game with used a SW Star Destroyer model to
make a Type S in 1:72.  Neat-o.  The top lifts off to see the halls
inside :-)

Those Micro Machines SW figures are pretty well proportioned, too.


- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 16:21:32 -0500
Subject: Traveller programs

On 09/01/96 at 05:49 PM, Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

>- combination Scouts/WBH/World Tamer custom Mac program that details a
>system down to colour maps for every planet
>- sector mapping program (again for Mac)

I don't suppose you did them with a cross-platform tool?  Something that
creates source generic enough to port over to the more common
DOS/Win/OS2/*nix systems?

Pretty soon Mac, OS/2, Windows and *nix systems will all be able to run the
same Java programs from the desktop and over the net.  I think it's likely
to become the BASIC of the 90's.  

Personally, I *like* Pascal better (I use Sybil and Delphi much more than
C++ <g>) than the C like Java, but I really think Java is the wave of the
future.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Sep 1996 23:11:12 GMT
Subject: Language Tables Online

I upgraded Metator to output language tables in HTML format, which I've placed
on my web site.  Since I uploaded I've spotted a few minor formatting bugs,
but the information looks accurate.

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html

You'll find the link under "Resource Materials".  Enjoy.



PS. The next step is to upgrade Metator to output HTML system reports. 
Because I can't write a GIF file (lack of knowledge), these will be text
format for a while.  So far I see the following level 1 headings:

System Listing
Military Forces
Planetary Reports:
- - Survey Report (physical, sociological, economic)
- - Animal Encounter Tables
- - Trade Tables
- - Pressure Tables
- - Climate & Weather Tables

What am I missing (other than the maps?

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 16:59:56 -0500
Subject: Multiple tasks

- -- 

Multiple actions per turn!  

I'm sort of slow, can we go through a couple of examples?

Bob's                       Single
Skills      Attrib  Skill   Asset
==================================
Pistol (DEX)   9      2      11
Survey (EDU)   9      1      10

Dirk's                      Single
Skills      Attrib  Skill   Asset
==================================
Pistol (DEX)   7      4      11
Survey (EDU)   6      4      10


If Bob and Dirk perform ONE action using either skill they have an
equal chance of success or failure.  11=11 and 10=10

If Bob and Dirk perform TWO actions using Pistol in one turn...

Bob     9/2,dn = 4 + 2 = 6
Dirk    7/2,dn = 3 + 4 = 7    Dirk has a 1 point advantage, right?

...or TWO actions using Survey in one turn...

Bob     9/2,dn = 4 + 1 = 5
Dirk    6/2,dn = 3 + 4 = 7   Dirk has a 2 point advantage, right?

With THREE actions...

for Pistol...
Bob     9/3,dn = 3 + 2 = 5
Dirk    7/3,dn = 2 + 4 = 6 

for Survey...
Bob     9/3,dn = 3 + 1 = 4
Dirk    6/3,dn = 2 + 4 = 6

Am I understanding this correctly?  The characteristic is divided by
the number of actions attempted (rounded down) and the result is
added to the skill.  Therefore you *always* roll against your full
skill plus some fraction of the controlling attribute.

Next question. If Bob wants to perform ONE pistol and ONE something
else during one turn then you divide his controlling characteristic
for Pistol by 2 and add his skill; and you divide his controlling
characteristic for something-else by 2 and add his skill for that,
right?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 17:16:39 -0500
Subject: RE: Characteristics vs. Skills

On 09/01/96 at 11:56 AM,  That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu> said:

>: This rule can be applied to all skills.  Professional, however, can do :
>multaple things at once!

>The problem is that multiple actions are usually only performed during
>combat.  When you need something fixed (engines, cuisinart, crew members),
>you're usually concentrating on just that task.  This is when you get into
>the realm where being more skilled doesn't help you as much as having
>higher attributes.


Paul {tiger} said:

>Thanks for the clarification, Ken. I now see somewhat the
>importance of this, but for the example we have been using, the
>Survey skill, I don't know how important multiple actions are.  I
>understand the useage (and honestly, I had forgotten when I posted
>my fix) for the combat setting, and I would agree, but the problem
>IMO is really with the non-combat skills.


Joe Walsh said:

>Ah, okay.  So, my sensor ops guy can detect two, three, four, or
>even more ships if he has enough skill and gets lucky - while a
>person with high attribute and low skill hasn't nearly as much of a
>chance.  Makes sense.  Thanks for clearing that up!


I want to hear what Ken and crew have to say about these objections, but I
think Joe is on the right track.  I suspect we are, I know *I* am, guilty
of using pretty broad tasks.  With a *broad* task there isn't a reason for
multiple tasks..."Fixing the Radio" is the whole task.

What if we break the task down into smaller chunks?  We are
attempting to "Fix the Radio", and let's say that is really 4
sub-tasks:  dianosising the problem, tearing the device down,
applying the fix, putting the device back together.  If we take 4 turns
then we get to use *all* of our Asset on each part, but if we are in a
hurry and try to do it all in one turn then we have to complete each part
with our Skill + (.25*Attribute).

Is this a fair representation of the rule's intent?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:47:05 +0000
Subject: Re: Possible PBEM?

Paul,

I'd be interested, if you aren't already full up.  The only potential 
problem is I am out of town Sept 15-22 on business.  I am Stu's wife 
and have played CT/MT with him on and off over the last 10 years.  I 
am not as fanatical about it as he is, but I do love role-playing.

Suz

> Date:          Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:08:05 -0500
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> From:          Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
> Subject:       Possible PBEM?
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> I'm considering running a PBeM with the T4 Rules in a pre Year 0 adventure.
> I'm thinking of a Year -4 or so during the time of the Sylean Federations
> expansion into core sector.  I'm hoping to make the adventure into a JTAS
> submission, but, having never done a JTAS adventure, I want to see how it
> goes over first.  I'm looking for 3 to 5 players (OK 6 if you can give me a
> good reason).
> 
> Anyway, EMail me if you want to help me learn how to be a better referee by
> participating in my adventure.
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 
> 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:06:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Possible PBEM?

You should join our game, the one I am refereeing, Stu is playing in it.
We just lost a person, the only female player by coincidence.

http://www.lm.com/~tellis/traveller/ if Stu hasn't already told you about
it.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:16:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> After working hard to get my NPC engineers aboard my PC's starship I now
> need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  My concept: As the NPCs are
> conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
> fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

   Freezing cold, followed by a BOOM as the refined fuel (hydrogen) meets
atmosphere (oxygen) and spark...

> 2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

   The aformentioned BOOM might have a more immediate effect, but the
power plant should taper off rather than suddenly stop. Safeties would
probably take over and shut down the reactor quietly whle batteries/aux
power take over.

> 3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

  See  1) above. ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >         Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).
> 
> Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't even
> have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the Jack Ryan
> timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?

  He's talking about _Executive Orders_. Looks like it's a dynamite book,
from what I've been hearing. (A pleasant surprise - I didn't like the last
two or three chapters of _Debt of Honor_ for those not in the know)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu (Kelly St. Clair)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 96 16:20:45 PDT
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

Early on in the (now-defunct, I fear) Traveller PBeM, we lost a few 
  inactive PCs in this manner.  A fuel line broke, due to sabotage.
  I'd have to check the archives to see how it was described, but I
  have a vivid memory of one person getting showered with LHyd,
  falling/skidding across the ice-covered floor, and SHATTERING...

Someone else has already mentioned the explosion hazard.  I recommend
  keeping the actual volume of hydrogen released small (just enough
  to get rid of your 'target') so the whole ship doesn't go up in a
  fireball.  Automatic safety cutoff triggered by a loss of pressure
  in the line?


- --------------------------------
Kelly St.Clair (Nishu Neriika)
kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:38:25 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

>
>So, about this whole 15mm vs 25mm thing:
>
>Is it overly greedy on my part to want BOTH?  I use 25mm for roleplay; ...
>  On the other hand, I am proud and pleased
>to admit that I do a lot of combat in my games, and sometimes this gets large
>and complex enough to be a Striker/wargame situation.
>
>What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of standard
>NPCs and a squad or two of marines.  Basically, look to the careers in the T4
>book as your figure archetypes; I'd like two male and two female examples of
>each career as a starter. ...
>
>As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24
>character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of Marines in
>Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five
>different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles
>would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.

My LORD you've just described the perfect world! IS ANYBODY AT IG LISTENING?

The Future Warriors line's been pretty good tp me for generic 25mm
Travellers. But surely some 15mm producer could license Traveller, which
could be used for generic 15mm for other systems.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 1 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 370

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: MPGN FTP Archive
         2. Traveller-digest V1996 #368
         3. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         4. Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         5. RE: Characteristics vs. Skills
         6. Re: Multiple tasks
         7. 15mm --no way!
         8. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         9. Re: Traveller Chat
        10. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
        11. Re: MPGN FTP Archive
        12. Re: Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)
        13. Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
        14. Re: T4 Miniatures
        15. Re: Year 0 (was Characteristics vs. Skills)
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #363  Skills
        17. Re: Analysis of Proposed 2d3 System Fix (Long)
        18. Re: T4 Miniatures
        19. Re: Marine Officers
        20. Re: Marine Officers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:42:31 -0700
Subject: Re: MPGN FTP Archive

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Who runs the MPGN gaming archive, and how long does it take them to clear
> files?
> 
> I uploaded some Traveller files 12 days ago, and nothing has moved.  There's
> files there (for other systems) from even earlier.
> 
> Does anyone know where else I can upload Traveller files?  I have:
> 
> - several deckplans in 25mm scale
> - several decplans in 15mm scale
> - character generation, language analysis, and mercenary HyperCard stacks
> - combination Scouts/WBH/World Tamer custom Mac program that details a system
> down to colour maps for every planet
> - sector mapping program (again for Mac)

Ya, send it to Dave Golden...  He'll love that kind of stuff.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 01 Sep 96 19:50:24 EDT
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #368

>         Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).

Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't even
have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the Jack Ryan
timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?

*First* we infect your computer with Virus. *Then* we start dropping
near c rocks. 

And if none of those make you repent, we'll confiscate all your
Traveller materials!


	It IS Jack Ryan in Execitive Orders, what else? My wife (gawd I love her !)
got it for me and I started reading it saturday afternoon. When I looked up, it was
evening, 300 pages gone, and 'honey, it's bed time...' Talk about an ethicial
problem! So much for writing another chapter...
	HEY ! I just got Win95 to WORK! PLEASE, NO VIRUSES! I've had enough comp
problems this year.(...whataya mean I need the new MS Office? I just bought the new
one last year!!!) T$R, Microsoft, and the IRS: the evil Triad...
	Can't drop rocks on me; there's a Patriot batt near by... (fat lot of good
 that will do...) I thought the Army was doing an AA laser? Anyone...
	I'm an Army MP and that would be cruel. And darn hard to replace on a GI paycheck. 
Cruel AND un-Imperial! What I have I wouldn't trade, 'cept for my wife.(tho a copy
of... NAAAA she'd escape and rip up my Trav books... AND take back the NEW Clancy)
	(just wish he'd signed it like MM is.(I hope...))
		

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:51:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

Executive Order.  Takes up where Debt of Honor leaves off.  And I 
can't wait to get my hands on it!  Oh, payday, where are you?

Suz

> >         Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).
> 
> Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't even
> have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the Jack Ryan
> timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?
> 
> *First* we infect your computer with Virus. *Then* we start dropping
> near c rocks. 
> 
> And if none of those make you repent, we'll confiscate all your
> Traveller materials!
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 01 Sep 96 20:25:46 EDT
Subject: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

	For the question of  liquid hydrogen leaking in an engine room, I wish
you luck...
	After the BIG explosion, I think little, if any, of the ship would be
around. (Of couse, if it was a large ship, yea, it MAY have some areas still
habitable. But, not for long without power and heat) I'm not the chem guy in my
family, but it is damn cold (I work near l-nitrogen and it is awful cold, even
in July!) Once it begins to 'heat up', it gases real easy. Just think of the
Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes is a stray spark and
POOF.
	Try this: the chief dons his vacc suit and goes into the tanks to inspect
them. The suit has a small rip or crack, say in the faceplate, and, you're less
one chief. Or, the chief goes EVA to check the static probe (or what ever...)
and catches his suit on a stray edge. Suit rips, vacume comes in, cheif gets
offed. Or, the static probe discharges and shorts the suit, stuns the chief, and
goes spinning off into the darkness.
	Lots can go wrong on a starship. Compensators go goofy and amplifly the
grav, anti-hijack malfunctions and floods the ship with gas (maybe LH...), doors
and iris valves fail, ect, ect...
	Oh, we did play the one of the chief going into the tanks. Took the
players the better part of the night to figure out where he went. They figured
that he did a number on the ship, skipped out, and left them stranded. They
managed to land the ship, find a new chief, THEN get the annual maint done.
Shock was that when they came back to the ship to continue, they were charged
with neglagence by the local law and saw the bodybag brought out of the tanks.
	What the chief did was put the e-room on standby, enter the tanks, and
let the players thoughts carry themselves away. Made for a real good game
session...  
	 
	

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:33:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Characteristics vs. Skills

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I want to hear what Ken and crew have to say about these objections, but I
> think Joe is on the right track.  I suspect we are, I know *I* am, guilty
> of using pretty broad tasks.  With a *broad* task there isn't a reason for
> multiple tasks..."Fixing the Radio" is the whole task.
> 
> What if we break the task down into smaller chunks?  We are
> attempting to "Fix the Radio", and let's say that is really 4
> sub-tasks:  dianosising the problem, tearing the device down,
> applying the fix, putting the device back together.  If we take 4 turns
> then we get to use *all* of our Asset on each part, but if we are in a
> hurry and try to do it all in one turn then we have to complete each part
> with our Skill + (.25*Attribute).
> 
> Is this a fair representation of the rule's intent?

I want very much to hear the Official Response from Ken, but here's my 
take on it:

In combat, no matter what tasks are involved, those with high skill are 
going to be able to do more than those with low skill....thus potentially 
saving the day by pushing themselves.  Outside of combat, those with 
lower skill but higher characteristics are going to do just as well with 
tasks...they can take the time they need, so they have a good chance of 
success.

So, when it really matters, you want a highly skilled person.  Otherwise, 
it doesn't matter too much - all that matters is the sum of char+skill, 
not the individual values.

This should also be useful in other, non-combat situations: using 
Diplomacy or Fast talk on a group of people, for instance.  

In the Survey example, if one follows Eris' suggestion and breaks the 
task down into sub-tasks - perhaps one for each of the UPP values - and 
there is a time constraint of some sort, then the person with high Survey 
skill will carry the day.

To me, this seems reasonable.  It may not be perfectly realistic, but it 
is as close as I care for it to be.

As Eris said, it is a different way of doing things for many (most?) of 
us, but it /is/ more realistic.  In the Survey example, the character 
could, for instance, get everything right except for the Hydrographics by 
succeeding in all rolls but that one (of course, this would also be a 
good place to use the Uncertain Tasks rule, IMO).  This seems more 
realistic than treating it as one big task.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:39:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Multiple tasks

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Am I understanding this correctly?  The characteristic is divided by
> the number of actions attempted (rounded down) and the result is
> added to the skill.  Therefore you *always* roll against your full
> skill plus some fraction of the controlling attribute.

That's right.  The constraint is that you can never do so many tasks that 
the controlling characteristic, when divided by the number of tasks, 
becomes less than 1.  So, a Str. 7 person could do up to 7 brawling 
attacks in a combat round.

> Next question. If Bob wants to perform ONE pistol and ONE something
> else during one turn then you divide his controlling characteristic
> for Pistol by 2 and add his skill; and you divide his controlling
> characteristic for something-else by 2 and add his skill for that,
> right?

The book doesn't say either way.  The example uses only one type of skill 
(Brawling).  I don't see any reason why not, though.  The skill with the 
lesser controlling characteristic would determine the limit to the number 
of tasks possible at once.  And, of course, it would be up to the 
referee's common sense whether the simultaneous tasks would be possible.  
Other than that, I can't see any reason for what you say to be false.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 08:10:36 -0800
Subject: 15mm --no way!

>>What word on licensing/availability/etc. for T4 miniatures?  My vote's for
15mm figures.  I started back in 1977 with 15s and never quite made the
switch to 25s.  For tactical (read: role playing) games with vehicles,
ranged fire combat, etc., I don't think 25s can compare...  You can
easily
model a 15mm Scout; in 25mm it becomes daunting.<<

Bad idea.

Not only has the precedent been set for 25mm figures with the classic
Grenadier figs (I have a few hundred!) and the TNE figs, but there are
dozens of other companies producing fantastic 25mm figures for other
sci-fi games that are completely compatible with Traveller. 

One that specifically comes to mind is Geohex's Star Grunts. They have a
wonderful line of troops and futuristic military vehicles that work
great with Trav. It'd be a shame to cut out all the compatibles.

IG cannot possibly produce enough molds to meet all the variation
required. Stick with compatibility, not the obscure 15mm figs.

Best,

Chris


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:40:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

Matt Machtan wrote:
> 
> Dear Traveller fans,
> 
> I just wanted to clearify a few things...
>

Real, honest-to-goodness feedback from the company!  You gotta _love_
these guys!

Thanks, Ken!
 
> ***** Task System *****
> 
[snippage]
That part was fairly clear.  The problem is, this only seems to work
when there is a time constraint.  IMHO there are some things that the
less skilled person will never do as well as the more skilled, no matter
how high the natural aptitude or how much time is available.  Of course,
this would be quite complex to include in the game system.

I'm playing around with a potential easy fix.  Basically, divide the
attribute by 2 and round up while dropping 1D from the dice code for
each difficulty level.

I figure the average stat is 2D, while the average 'professional' level
skill is about 3-4, or 1D.  This gives a 2-to-1 weighting of attribute
vs skill.  By dividing the atribute by 2, it gets a value of 1D, about
equal in weighting to skill.  The 1D lost by halving the attribute is
simply removed from the number of dice rolled for the task.

I need to work out actual numbers for this, and I'll post when I get
something.

Feedback is, of course, welcome.

[snip .5D and crit hit stuff]

> 
> ***** Aslian Sketch  *****
> From time to time we will be posting things just to get a reaction.  A test
> one might say.  just because you see something, its not cannon until it is
> in print, and then again we might change that later if Marc so wishes.
> 

My first reaction was to wonder when Humaniti and the Aslan became
cross-fertile ;)

Thanks again, Ken



	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> untill everyone decides to leave.  I'm gonna be on starting tonight, and if
> you want to talk about Traveller, just query me, my nick is paulw , or join
> #traveller.  I'm going there right now to create the channel.  Hope to see
> you there.
 I wonder, why not use EFNet? It is larger....
 I would be interested in IRC #traveller, also.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
                -- Mark Twain


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 02:31:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

>As the NPCs are
>conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
>fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.
>
>Questions:
>
>1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

A jet of liquid hydrogen, suddenly released from pressure?  You probably
wouldn't see the hydrogen itself, as there would be a lot of condensation
(water, gasses) around it.  L-Hyd is cold, plus you have expansion cooling as
well.  When the jet hits things you will get thermal damage.  Lots of
crackling and hissing.  Then the l_Hyd evaporates.  Now you have hydrogen and
oxygen (admittedly cold).  A spark or hot surface and they combine into
water, plus lots of light, sound, and heat. 

>2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

Assuming that the L-Hyd was being used for cooling (mentioned in SOM, I
think), you could have interesting thermal problems.  Erratic/no flow could
also really screw with some valving.

>3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

Well, I don't know about you, but _I'd_ want to be a long way away when it
happened, and even farther when the players found out that I caused it :-)


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:53:32 -0500
Subject: Re: MPGN FTP Archive

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Who runs the MPGN gaming archive, and how long does it take them to clear
> files?
> 
> I uploaded some Traveller files 12 days ago, and nothing has moved.  There's
> files there (for other systems) from even earlier.
> 
> Does anyone know where else I can upload Traveller files?  I have:
> 
> - several deckplans in 25mm scale
> - several decplans in 15mm scale
> - character generation, language analysis, and mercenary HyperCard stacks
> - combination Scouts/WBH/World Tamer custom Mac program that details a system
> down to colour maps for every planet
> - sector mapping program (again for Mac)

There are a number of WWW pages carrying stuff.  Look at Dave Golden's
for example:

  http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

He also has links to a number of others.  Try emailing him. 

I look forward to seeing your stuff wherever it ends up, especially the
deckplans.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 02:40:50 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Sector Maps (was T4 in Atlanta)

>I'd say that the IG sectors should form a sort of sprawling web. The
>licenced sectors could attach to this, but with "free" sectors
>in-between. That way there would *always* be "free" sectors adjacent to
>official ones. 

I like this idea.  But I wouldn't restrict the free/official areas by sector
boundaries.  Use 'natural' astrographic features (rifts, mains, etc.) to set
them.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 02:38:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

>When you need something fixed (engines, cuisinart, crew
>members), you're usually concentrating on just that task. 

I wish I had your task.  Even in an emergency I'm usually trying to do more
than on thing at once. 

This could make for some great role-playing!  Picture your
high-attribute/low-skilled engineer trying to do maintenance.  The referee
rules that interruptions could like multiple tasks (because you have to deal
with them).  Pretty soon this character has a reputation for being _really_
grumpy:

"How much longer to fix the jump drive?  Ten minutes if you leave me alone. 
FIVE BLOODY HOURS IF YOU KEEP ASKING ME HOW LONGER!!!"

This could also be a use for Jack-of-Trades.  Every level lets you have a
'free' interruption.

Given what my paramedic relatives have told be about working an emergency
scene, I would count group tasks as being automatically interrupted
(questions, instructions, and so on) unless the team has practiced.  This
also gives you rules to cope with a shakedown cruise.

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:02:16 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

Time to try this again.  I panic-stopped my machine in the middle of
replying to this when we got light flickers from a fast-moving t-storm. 
The _last_ thing I need is another unplanned hardware expense.

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> 
> So, about this whole 15mm vs 25mm thing:
> 
> Is it overly greedy on my part to want BOTH?  

NO!  (or if it is, color me greedy :) )

When I saw this thread, I was thinking the exact same thing.  25mm for
roleplaying and 15mm for large scale or starship combat (got all those
deckplans, don't you know?).  

I had more to say, but Steve's done a great job of covering it.  Just
count this as another vote for both 15mm and 25mm figures.

Is anyone (who makes these decisions) listening?

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:13:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Year 0 (was Characteristics vs. Skills)

Matt Machtan wrote:
> 
> Dear Traveller fans,
> 
> I just wanted to clearify a few things...

[snippage on task system etc.

> Thanx,
> 
> Ken Whitman
> President of Imperium Games
> 
> P.S. - I would like to see some talk on Year 0.  What do you feel is going
> on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way the government is set
> up, etc.) What is it like to live in Year 0 (with honor and a mans word as
> gold, etc.)  What are the corporations like, what do Travellers feel.  Let
> us know!

I like the honor thing, although I may be a bit cynical on this. 
(Nothing to do with 20th (or 18th or 19th) century US politics, I'm
sure.)  I do see it playing an important part, with letters of
introduction playing a _very_ significant part, since news travels only
as fast as transportation.  Maybe membership in certain
guilds/organizations (some secret) with verifiable
passwords/IDs/whatever to act as introduction also.  This also gives
some capability to 'start over' with an acquired ID which could be
parleyed into a reputation/social standing over a few years with
subsequent intro to 'polite' society.  Relatively little way to check
background tens of parsecs away, so must trust references.  Local
nobility plays _large_ part in references as representative of
imperium.  Is 'honor' an introduction of the Imperium, and does it
extend equally to all, or only in the Imperial sphere of influence?

[rambling mode OFF]

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:20:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #363  Skills

ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com wrote:
> 
> About the example of the guys performing brain surgery, speaking AS a
> surgeon, it is more important for that operaotr to have that dex of 12....
> trust me, there isn't much difference between Med-3 and Med-4, primary care
> guys probably know more... but you'd want a surgeon to operate on you, not
> the know-it all internist.

Never argue with the guy who's going to be standing over your sleeping
carcass with a scalpel! <g>

Seriously, good point.  As someone else pointed out, there is wide
variance in the extent to which attributes should contribute to success
across different tasks.  I just happen to feel that, on the average, a
2-to-1 weighting of attributes vs skills is too heavy.  Maybe it's just
my CT prejudices showing.

> My vote is in favor of the current system, but people can tinker around with
> it for their own campaigns.

That's one of the reasons I like Traveller so much; adaptation is so
widely accepted.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:30:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Analysis of Proposed 2d3 System Fix (Long)

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Having more time than sense this afternoon, I ran an analysis of your
> proposed change to the CharGen/Skill's rules.  I divided unskilled attempts
> by 2 on the first row of each Attribute level, and used the attribute alone
> on the second row.  I think either would work, it just depends on whether
> you want to make default attempts *really* hard or just hard.  I went up to
> Attribute Level 8, because you can pick up some attribute benefits..I don't
> think more than 2 would work too well with this system I went up to Skill
> Level 10, actually 12 should be very possible in this system, but I wimped
> out (it was supper time <g>).
> 
> Take a look, and tell me what you think.
> 
> --

This is _good_ stuff!  You don't happen to have a couple of quick lines
of code you used to do this, do you?  I'm working a task system tweak I
want to figure similar numbers for.

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> BTW, to any IG types out there, what are the licencing requirements
> for T4?  Is there some nasty up-front money, or can it just be a
> royalty?  I cast resin for a living, and was thinking of doing some
> traveller stuff if the start up costs won't kill me.
> 
> -Merrick

Are you following the dual-sizes discussion?  How feasible do you think
this would be?

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:43:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> 
> At Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:15:01 -0400 (EDT) "Joseph M. Saul"
> <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> >> 2) Your #3 is correct.
> >
> >> >2. Do prospective Marine officers: (1) Attend NOTC/Naval Academy;
> >> >(2) Attend OTC/Military Academy; (3) Always start their Marine
> >> >careers as enlisted men (no college/academy option)?^?
> 
> >If this is accurate, then that is a *change* from CT/MT.  In the earlier
> >versions, it was explicitly stated that prospective Marine officers attend
> >the Naval Academy.  (This is also how it's done in the US, which provides
> >the model for how the Imperial military services are organized in general
> >- -- yes, I know there are some departures, but it's overall closer to the
> >US model than to anyplace else.)
> 
> This gives a nice feel for the Marines... You can't lead until you have
> followed.  Puts the Noble fops in their place.  (I imagine some Marine Drill
> thusly:  "M'Lord Philip? Duke of Nova Cartago? GET DOWN AND DO PUSH-UPS
> UNTIL THIS PLANET LEAVES ITS GOD-ASSIGNED ORBIT!!  If that *pleases* you..." )
> 

I COMPLETLY agree!  Although CT etc. tended to follow US mil structure,
which did give this old swabbie a nice comfy feeling, the feel of
something _different_ would be nice.  Take that young noble, stick him
in the dirt for four years, then IF he survives, maybe some kind of
officer program.  I think it ties in nicely with the 'even the cook
jumps' mentality from Starship Troopers.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:00:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

I always require my Impie Marie officers to spend at least a year as a
grunt.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #370
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 2 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 371

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
         2. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
         3. Re New PBeM
         4. Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         5. Re: T4 Thoughts
         6. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360
         8. Re: Aslan Appearance (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364)
         9. Re: MPGN FTP Archive
        10. Re: Adventure ideas, etc.
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #369
        12. re: 15 or 25mm
        13. Re: T4 Miniatures
        14. Re: T4 Miniatures
        15. [none]
        16. Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
        17. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
        18. Imperial Jarheads
        19. T4 stuff I would like to see

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:27:07 PST
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

In mail you write:

> After working hard to get my NPC engineers aboard my PC's starship I now
> need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  My concept: As the NPCs are
> conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
> fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless gas. Liquid hydrogen (LH2) is a clear
liquid, with a temperature *below* 20K (-253.17C or -423.7 F).

There's actually little fire hazard in this case, because there will be
too *much* hydrogen (as a percentage of the air) to burn. And the low
temperature will help make ignition unlikely.

There will be lots of splashing and bubbling (remember, the
ridiculously low temp I gave above is the temp LH2 *boils* at!)

> 2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

Depends on how fast it is using fuel. If it is using liters per hour,
then it'll be a gradual shutdown. If it's using "displacement tons" per
minute, it'll shutdown right now, and the emergency power systems had
better kick in.

> 3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

Well, anybody in or near the path of the LH2 is gonna get flashfrozen.
People farther back will get *severe* frostbite. 

And while it may not be strictly correct, it's always a nice touch to
have one of the flash frozen corpses fall over and shatter when it hits
the deck. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:37:46 PST
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

In mail you write:

> If it's hydrogen then it might be cryogenic, or it might be
> preheated.  Either way if you vent a lot H2 into an O2 rich
> atmosphere you'll get fire and explosion.  A small, slow leak would be
> detected, if your equipment was working correctly, and could be dealt with,
> of course if you didn't detect the leak you'd soon have an explosive
> situation.  The effects of a smaller leak under a lot of pressure would
> *start* as a jet of almost invisible flame across the room, but soon the
> ship goes boom.

Actually, an explosion requires that the hydrogen be *well* mixed with
oxygen, and that the mixture being in a fairly narrow range of relative
percentages. 

In fact, if you dump *lots* of hydrogen into the atmosphere, it *can't*
explode (too much hydrogen is as bad as too little). 

Several odd effects are possible with a high hydrogen concentration. 

1. It's like helium only worse. Your voice gets *very* "Donald duck"
   like.  
2. Any vacuum tubes in the area (including CRTS) develop leaks rather
   quickly and fail (hydrogen molecules will slip thru cracks that air
   can't)
3. anything leaking *oxygen* (or air) into the mostly hydrogen
   atmosphere is a potential fire hazard. So rather than a fire
   starting at the broken fuel lines, it could start at the exhuast
   port of your emergency breathing mask!

That later one is sometimes used in an interesting lab demo. You have a
clear "tank" full of flammable gas, with a bunsen burner inside, and
one sitting on top. The one inside is hooked to an *air* hose. The one
outside is hooked to the same gas outlet that is keeping the tank full.

You light the outside burner, which shows what everyone expects,
namely, gas burning in air.

Then using a glovebox port, or the like, you strike a spark inside the
tank at the top of the burner, while opening the valve on the air
supply leading to. And the class sits there with their mouths hanging
open as you burn *air* in a gas atmosphere.

> could result in a jet of almost invisible steam (or plasma) lancing across
> the room.

A steam jet will be invisible. A *plasma* jet will be *dangerously*
visible. Plasmas *glow*, due to the constant recombination of the
electrons and ions that make them up. A lot of the glow from your
plasma is going to be in the UV range. 

>>Senario:  
>
> The ship suddenly shudders and lurches throwing everyone to the deck. The
> lights on the Bridge flicker and come back dimly as the backup systems kick
> in.  The boards around the control room are covered with flashing red
> lights.  Bleeding from a gash on his head Byner turns to you and says...
>
>>"Captain, the ship just shunted to battery power and I can't
>>raise Zathra on the comm.  She was in engineering working on the power
>>plant 2 minutes ago."

More like "Zathra's voice went all "ducky and then I lost the link..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:21:21 -0500
Subject: Re New PBeM

Well, I have five players already.  I am not opposed to taking on one or
maybe two more, but that will be it and anyone wanting in will have to have
a good story. :)  No, the dog ate your EMail is not a good enough excuse.
Thanks for everyone who sent in.

PS - keep sending in the Traveller Chat sign ups.  I'm working on a more
detailed explanation for those few who have asked what I am talking about.
If you don't know much about IRC, Undernet, or Real Time Chat, but are
interested, just let me know.  I don't know much, but I can tell you how to
get set up I think. :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:47:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

On 2 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Given what my paramedic relatives have told be about working an emergency
> scene, I would count group tasks as being automatically interrupted
> (questions, instructions, and so on) unless the team has practiced.  This
> also gives you rules to cope with a shakedown cruise.

Oooh. I /like/ that idea!  Now we have a good way to handicap ad-hoc 
groups, as they should be.  Nice one!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:51:22 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

That Computer Guy wrote:
[snippage]
> 
> This is what the T4 system is.  Well, you're given an experience point
> or two or three (depends on the adventure) and then those points can be
> used to grant a roll to see if you've improved the skill (that was used
> during the adventure).  So, if you use three skills and you get one xp,
> you choose which skill to get a die roll for.  Equal or over the skill
> and you increase it, under it and you don't.  It would seem a little
> fairer if you got to roll for all the skills you used.
> 

I was just looking at this again.  Basically I like it.  The on thing I
don't like is that you can't carry over points.  It makes sense in terms
of making sure that exp is applied to skills used in the adventure, but
it doesn't allow accumulation of experience across artifically short
adventures to improve chances of skill improvement.  I think it might be
better to let points accumulate to a given amount of time (i.e. a given
point is only good for (say) 6 months after earned, this one is my
preference) or a max number of points. If the points earned during a
given adventure were not used immediately at the end of the adventure,
they would have to be assigned to specific skills used during the
adventure.  This would ensure that experience can only be used for
skills actually exercised.  More flexibility would be allowed if used
immediately since the points dont have to be assigned to a skill until
used.

Comments?

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:19:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

Hit the road; drive to Chantilly, VA, and pick it up at the Game Parlour...
Take I95 south to the DC beltway.  take it west into VA to I66.  Take that
west to Fair Oaks/Rt50.  Take that west to Sully Plaza.  Go all the way to
the back and look for the shop. - Bill  PS - Or, you could go to Dream
Wizards in Rockville or Barbarian Books in Wheaton; they both, I'm told,
have it already. (You'll have to call them for directions, though...)

At 05:32 PM 8/31/96 EST, you wrote:
>	Still waiting for T4 here in Baltimore.... The Armory says that THEY
>won't get it until sometime mid Sep.
>
>	WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
>	(hope that the mail goons don't goof my book up when they delever next
>week. Yea, right....)
>
>	So, for you all:  What about experence? Can you improve your skills AND
>stats? Is level 6 the highest reachable on skills?
>	For IG:  What about submitting writings for publication? I have the subs
>guidelines for JTAS, but are you going to do books like GDW did? (Reason being
>is that I have an IRIS-type story in MSWORD being compiled for printing,
>someday...) When is JTAS hitting the racks, so to speak?
>
>	Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey. RECOMEND IT!).
>
>	Jeff
>
>
>	Life is a Hillary....
>
>


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:03:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #360

At 01:05 pm 8/31/96 -0600, you wrote:
>> was another one of those "canon" arguments. Canon says invaders first tried
>> to capture the system's gas giant for refueling. Defenders protected it.
>> 
>>         But the Kuiper Belt, around and beyond Pluto's orbit, is a large
>> repository of comets. Comets=ice=fuel. And a huge belt is impossible to
>> defend. So if there wasn't a reason NOT to refuel there, that's where
>> invaders would refuel. Which isn't canon, so there had to be a reason. To
>> avoid the canon police, we agreed on the "shelf" in Tplate performance,
>> inside Neptune's orbit (IIRC). The canonical research station on Pluto
>> (which Don changed to Sylea for some reason) had to be supplied via
>> old-fashioned reaction drives.
>
>So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
>anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
>GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
>I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.

        OK, I never said this was well thought out, given the time
constraints. But when you jump into the Kuiper belt we'll pick up the
gravitational disturbance, and pick up your HEPlaR exhaust on our mondo
massive PEMS, so at least we'll know you're coming. Then we can send our own
jump ship for help.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:03:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Aslan Appearance (was Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #364)

At 06:37 pm 8/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>What I _DO_ object to is the blatant "space opera" character of the new
>illustrative style -- as I wrote previously, I'm starting to wonder if
>GDW is deliberately playing to a different demographic.

 ^^^ Excuse me, your Freudian Slip is showing...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:04:06 -0600
Subject: Re: MPGN FTP Archive

At 05:49 pm 9/1/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Who runs the MPGN gaming archive, and how long does it take them to clear
>files?
>
>I uploaded some Traveller files 12 days ago, and nothing has moved.  There's
>files there (for other systems) from even earlier.
>
>Does anyone know where else I can upload Traveller files?  I have:
>
>- several deckplans in 25mm scale
>- several decplans in 15mm scale
>- character generation, language analysis, and mercenary HyperCard stacks
>- combination Scouts/WBH/World Tamer custom Mac program that details a system
>down to colour maps for every planet
>- sector mapping program (again for Mac)

        I'll take anything you've got, but I'm running a few weeks behind in
posting stuff. Anybody wanna come put in a yard for me?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:04:10 -0600
Subject: Re: Adventure ideas, etc.

At 07:56 pm 9/1/96 BST-1, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <9609011219.AA09818@NS.MPGN.COM>
>First I must say it is nice to see a firm that produced a game so closely 
>involved in a newsgroup.
>
>The main point of this email/message is that i was wondering on the net 
>is there anywhere to find Traveller adventures - for any version, T4 
>would be nice, but at the moment I seem to be able to find all sorts of 
>links, ship designs, gear, whatever, but the actual sites with full 
>adventures are far and few between.

        Write some up! Or take some of the many existing ideas (see my site
for about 8-12), detail them, and send them back whence they came!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:09:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #369

The reason I like this mailing list is that you guys are very inventive.
IG only write rules as guidlines and you guys have to figure out how to
play them.  However, once in a blue moon I try to stear you guys in a
direction when things go off a stray.

Some of the questions you raise are neat and cool, like taking two
different actions and dividing them by two.  We never thought of that, but
its a good idea.

IG is not here to make cannon or tell someone what is right or wrong.  You
(the players) have to figure out what is best for you and your players.
Help each other figure things out, and remember its fun to talk about all
this stuff but its best when you are playing it.

BTW, keep up the presser on the retail stores, and dont forget to play
Traveller there every once in a while.

- -Ken Whitman

Students steal, artist barrow - Pacaso



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:29:18 -0400
Subject: re: 15 or 25mm

I've a funny feeling I'm outvoted...  If Mithril went in, though, I'd change
my vote in a heartbeat! My biggest reason for liking the 15s (all MY other
RP figures are 25s, too), beyond the matter of percieved (by me) scale, was
that the old Citadel and Martian Metals ranges allowed you to put out a wide
variety of Traveller types - Vargyr (sp?), K'kree, etc., while none of the
25mm ranges ever got very far...  - Bill

At 08:26 AM 9/1/96 EST, you wrote:
>Traveller has long been associated with 15mm figures.  In fact, my first
15s were probably 
>Martian Metals Trav adventurers.  AHL and Snapshot were in 15 scale.  But
look around you 
>and you'll find that most every other rpg is doing 25s.  Therefore, most of
my miniatures 
>collection is 25s.  Which means, when I need a tap-man in a barroom I can
probably find 
>something in 25 without looking too far.  Try that with 15s.  Or better
yet, try to find a 
>human female in 15? 
>
>What are IG's plans, I wonder?  If they ever intend to put out another
ASL-like product 
>(I hope they do), it would probably be a large boxed affair somewhere in
the $35 price 
>range.  For that kind of money, I'd prefer 25mm.  
>
>One last thing, I agree completely with Merrick Burkhardt's statement about
well 
>proportioned figures.  No one makes figures better than Mithril.  Hmmm,
maybe they could 
>produce a Traveller line?
>
>Ensign John
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:35:14 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

Good dreams!  Don't forget that 6th 15mm pack - the Vargyr!  Good point,
though - use a given scale where the game demands it... - Bill

At 02:10 PM 9/1/96 EST, you wrote:
>So, about this whole 15mm vs 25mm thing:
>
>Is it overly greedy on my part to want BOTH?  I use 25mm for roleplay; its 
>easier to identify with and relate to a 25mm figure as a representation of
your 
>character; more detail, easier to see (and lets face it; I'm too damned old to 
>paint tiny details on 15mm figures).  On the other hand, I am proud and
pleased 
>to admit that I do a lot of combat in my games, and sometimes this gets large 
>and complex enough to be a Striker/wargame situation.  That's when I want the 
>15mm stuff.  Fortunately, I have some of the old Martian Metals minis, and a 
>lot of "standard" 15mm wargaming minis (mostly W.W.I Germans, Brits and
French, 
>with some civil war, Roman Empire, Vikings and American indians thrown in for 
>fun.  
>
>What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of standard 
>NPCs and a squad or two of marines.  Basically, look to the careers in the T4 
>book as your figure archetypes; I'd like two male and two female examples of 
>each career as a starter.  For NPCs, a few 3 or 4 figure packs focused on 
>specific roles would be good; a pack of Navy crew, a pack of Navy officers, a 
>pack of Merchant crew, a pack of Mercenaries, a pack of Government
Officials, a 
>pack of Marines in Battledress, a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of 
>Starport Tavern Thugs (come on, everybody uses these!), a pack of Typical TL12 
>Civilians, and a pack of Belters (of course).  With the 6 4-packs of character 
>figures, and the 10 packs of NPC figures, you would have most all of your 
>normal needs met.  Add to that four different sets of Aliens, and you have a 
>basic 20-pack assortment of Traveller figures to please one and all.  Add to 
>that a nice resin-cast Air Raft and G-Carrier, and life would be good indeed.
>
>What I _do not_ want is a pile of oversculpted, overarmed, overarmored, 
>OVERPRICED Games Workshop crap.  I have asked people at several mini companies 
>about SciFi miniatures, but they all seem to think that the Games Workshop 
>archetype is what everyone wants.  I'm sure there is a good market for it, but 
>there are plenty of people that don't want Space Orkz or similarly concepted 
>pre-teen fantasies.
>
>As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24 
>character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of Marines in 
>Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five 
>different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles 
>would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.
>
>Unfortunately, I realize this probably won't happen.  But I would like to
dream 
>about it.
>
>Steve Charlton
>scharlto@avalon.com
>scharlto@rtd.com
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:38:10 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

While you're at it, take a look at the AHM/ROCO/Roskopf 1/87th scale
vehicles.  Lots of modern German vehicles for TL7-9 utility carriers, as
well as a bunch of modern IFVs and AFVs...  - Bill

At 04:20 PM 9/1/96 EST, you wrote:
> 
>> As for 15mm, I would like a pack of characters (smaller versions of the 24 
>> character figures above), a pack of Marines in fatigues, a pack of
Marines in 
>> Battledress, a pack of Mercenaries, and a pack of Aslan Mercs.  That's five 
>> different sets; more could easily be dreamed up later.  Some 15mm vehciles 
>> would be good also; again, resin is cheaper and easier to cart around.
>> 
>>Unfortunately, I realize this probably won't happen.  But I would like to
dream 
>> about it.
>
>Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
>minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
>so desire.  A guy we game with used a SW Star Destroyer model to
>make a Type S in 1:72.  Neat-o.  The top lifts off to see the halls
>inside :-)
>
>Those Micro Machines SW figures are pretty well proportioned, too.
>
>
>-Merrick
>
>


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Mon,  2 Sep 96 02:26:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Stu,

> How prevalent was that???  Did anybody else (yourself,
> or the other GDW staffers) do much of that???

Marc and I used pseudonyms from time to time. I don't think Frank ever
did.

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett:

>as I wrote previously, I'm starting to wonder if
>GDW is deliberately playing to a different demographic.

Do you mean IG when you say GDW? GDW isn't doing anything these days
except generating memories...GDW has formally ceased to exist,
doncha know?


  LKW


------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 00:29:01 -0400
Subject: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

Hi,

I have just finished reading #10 of Traveller Chronicle.  While I am
impressed by the overall quality of the information on the Solomani Rim,
 I can't help but wonder the treatment of Vegans.  For those of you who
haven't read the magazine, the author treats the Vegans like humans,
in that they haven't recuperated from Virus.

The problem that I have with this question is that, even though I never
saw their stats (I never found the article concerning them), I was told
by a friend of mine (who is on the list and who has an unnatural attraction
to Vegans) that they can live to be 250 years old.

While humans can forget knowledge in a few generations, the length of time
that the 'night' lasted means that some of the Vegans (if not a lot!) who are
alive today would have been alive during the Collapse.  Assuming they kept 
the knowledge they learned in schools (there is no reason to doubt it), they 
should have been able to recuperate faster than humans.  Furthermore, they 
used to live in a politically stable and united society.  Since a lot of the 
Vegans alive in 1200+ were alive at the time of the collapse, they should still
have the memory of having only one government for them all, achieving unity 
shouldn't be a problem.

What do people think.

NOTE: I still haven't received my hardcopy of T4.  Anyone knows what is going on
or should I get in touch with them?


Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

> More like "Zathra's voice went all "ducky and then I lost the link..."

Zathras not know why Zathras' voice went all ducky. Maybe something good,
maybe something bad, but Zathras not know. Probably something bad.
Something good would never happen to Zathras.

- --
There is something wrong with your nose: it is not a llama's nose. If
it were a llama's nose, the treats would smell pretty, er, groovy.
(Sorry; that's how llamas like, er, relate to the world. They are very
sixties animals, basically. Right on, man.)           -- "Bureaucracy"



------------------------------

From: Patrick Murphy <murphy@gibbs.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:54:02 -0400
Subject: Imperial Jarheads

[several of many messages deleted]

>Until someone produces a Marine equivalent of the Military Academy, I'm
>going to allow graduates of that Academy to choose enlistment in Army or
>Marines at O1 upon graduation.  Why leave the Marines out of the
>educational process when Merchants have their own academy...

>In the US today, marine officers are trained in NROTC programs at
>colleges, or at the Naval Academy. They are not trained at the Military
>Academy.

I know some people don't give a hoot, and that's OK.  And maybe there's 
not an official answer.

But let me also chime and again insist the Marines are based on the Few 
and the Proud (and maybe not just our Marines).  So yes they should be 
able to attend the Academy, and yes, it should be the Naval Academy.  You 
can have them hang out with the dogfaces if you want, but that's not in 
keeping with (to my mind) the proud traditions that are so integral to 
the Corps mentality.  They are *not* soldiers, they are *marines*.  To 
suggest otherwise is an insult, as my dad would insist... ;^)

(Although I heard graduates in the top 25% of their class at West Point 
are eligible to become Marine officers, though many probably do not take 
them up on the offer.)

Semper Fi,
Patrick M.

------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:15:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: T4 stuff I would like to see

I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple things 
I would like to see released or posted in the future.

1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait till 
December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the ones from 
T:TNE, but I would like to have one from Classic Traveller period. Maybe 
IG could a early example to their web page (hint hint).


2. Re-release The Traveller Adventure: One of the only old Traveller 
books I have is a copy of The Traveller Adventure (The Big Red Book). It 
is a great multi-session adventure. I think it would big a good adventure 
for IG to release.

3. Character sheets in an electronic format: I would love a character, 
sector, ship form I could fill out and print of of my computer. I think 
it is the new trend in gaming, and I think it is long over due.


Any other ideas,
Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Monday, 2 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 372

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)
         2. Re: T4 Miniatures
         3. Re: T4 Thoughts
         4. RE: T4: Characteristics Analysis
         5. Re: Miniatures
         6. RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
         7. Re: Marine Officers
         8. RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 
         9. RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 
        10. Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)
        11. SSDS?
        12. Re: Nobles
        13. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
        14. Re: Attributes vs. Skills
        15. Re: Traveller Chat
        16. Re: Traveller programs
        17. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        18. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        19. [none]
        20. Re: Year 0
        21. Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?
        22. Re: Imperial Jarheads
        23. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 23:22:04 -0600
Subject: Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)

At 10:26 pm 8/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, after many months of work here is the first BARD paper.  I'm hoping to
>get it on my web page this weekend.  This paper is the result of the work of
>Lewis Roberts and John Muir Macpherson with a little help from me.  I really
>appreciate all of the energy and creative effort these guys put forth.
>Without their help, this paper wouldn't exist!  Thanks to Lewis and Muir,
>you guys are great!
>
>BTW, I've split the paper into three parts because it is so long.  This is
>the physical information section, next I'll post the history/cultural
>section, and last I'll post the World Tamer's Handbook Data that we developed.

        Going through my email "todo" list, and I've converted this paper to
HTML. Do you mind if I post it on my web site? If you want to look at it,
it's at 

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Regency/BARDPapers/
Helios.html
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:41:59 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Miniatures

> Are you following the dual-sizes discussion?  How feasible do you think
> this would be?

It would take two sets of sculpts.  The problem I have with
compatability with extant 25mm figs is that they all suck.  I guess
guys in vacc suits or power armor might be OK since the head/body
proportions are hidden.  I've always been at a loss since I won't buy
poorly proportioned figures, I'd rather have nothing at all if the
alternative is cartoonish ones.

But that said, if you have a good scupt it's easy enough to do.  I
have a white metal setup, but I prefer resin to metal anyway.  Metal
is easier to do in quantity, but the quality is lower (IMHO).  The
Mithral fuigures are sand-blasted, that's a nice touch, and it gets
rid of the flash.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:44:56 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

 
> I was just looking at this again.  Basically I like it.  The on thing I
> don't like is that you can't carry over points.  It makes sense in terms
> of making sure that exp is applied to skills used in the adventure, but
> it doesn't allow accumulation of experience across artifically short
> adventures to improve chances of skill improvement.  I think it might be

Hmmm.  I'd wanna check and make sure that you don't end up earning
skills faster than during your career (find average number per term,
and see how fast you can get 'em using experience.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 14:21:16 UT
Subject: RE: T4: Characteristics Analysis

	
In a previous message, Rob Prior wrote:

In my game, I use social  level as the characteristic for many tasks: 
everything from getting a good table at a restaurant to clearing customs 
quickly. 

Thanks for the paradigm shift; this will change my campaign somewhat.  I 
appreciate that tiny bit of information immensly!

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 07:43 +0100
Subject: Re: Miniatures

I have been reading the thread on 15mm vs. 25mm miniatures.  It is great to say 
we have both, but it is not practical.  Having been a partner in Dark Horse 
Miniatures, it takes a thousand sales of a miniature to break even on set up 
cost for that miniature.  Given the size of the Traveller population, only a 
small percentage uses miniatures, it is impractical to produce both a 15mm and 
25mm line.  It was finacial decision like that which lead to GDW financial 
problems.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 07:27 +0100
Subject: RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

In supplement 10: The Solomani rim, page 7; it states the Vegan have a lifespan 
of 200 years.  You are correct, many Vegan alive in 1200 would remember back 
before the collapse.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 07:47 +0100
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

I allow players who want to be Marine officers to earn their commissions in any 
of the following ways:  Naval Academy (Marine Option), Military Academy (Rare 
but it is done), NROTC (Marine Option), or OCS (already part of character 
generation; Commission roll). The boot camp for officers is already included in 
all of these options because while attending an Academy, college or OCS the 
character receives the first term skills of a marine officers.  Most first term 
skills are a result of schooling.  That is part of the reason why first terms 
have higher numbers of skills.

Semper Fi
JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 02:27:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 01 Sep 1996 19: 33:26 CDT
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 02:27:26 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: So, when it really matters, you want a highly skilled person.  Otherwise, 
: it doesn't matter too much - all that matters is the sum of char+skill, 
: not the individual values.
: 
: In the Survey example, if one follows Eris' suggestion and breaks the 
: task down into sub-tasks - perhaps one for each of the UPP values - and 
: there is a time constraint of some sort, then the person with high Survey 
: skill will carry the day.

: us, but it /is/ more realistic.  In the Survey example, the character 
: could, for instance, get everything right except for the Hydrographics by 
: succeeding in all rolls but that one (of course, this would also be a 
: good place to use the Uncertain Tasks rule, IMO).  This seems more 

But you don't break down firing a gun into subtask like, making sure
you've braced yourself correctly, taken a general aim, pull the trigger,
deal with recoil.

It's a game, and there needs to be a level of abstraction.  After all,
we can't know all of the steps that would be involved in any given
non-combat task.  So, what do you do.  In the above example, you have a
person that needs to perform a thorough survey, etc.  Hey, that's a
Formidable task that will take the next three days.  Breaking it up into
multiple tasks doesn't incur the minus on the attribute because it's not
all happening in one combat round.

The big problem is that it seems as though the task system ends up being
very combat-centric.

Just some thoughts.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 02:33:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Characteristics vs. Skills 

In Reply to Your Message of 02 Sep 1996 02: 38:52 GMT
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 02:33:19 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: >When you need something fixed (engines, cuisinart, crew
: >members), you're usually concentrating on just that task. 
: 
: I wish I had your task.  Even in an emergency I'm usually trying to do more
: than on thing at once. 

Hey, I agree.  On a given day, I'm working on three or four different
platforms, on a bunch of projects, while trying to suck down some nasty
coffee and keep hold on that last bit of my sanity.

But, when it really counts and something is really hosed, stuff's got to
be put on hold and tasks have to be prioritized.

: This could make for some great role-playing!  Picture your
: high-attribute/low-skilled engineer trying to do maintenance.  The referee
: rules that interruptions could like multiple tasks (because you have to deal
: with them).  Pretty soon this character has a reputation for being _really_
: grumpy:

With interuptions, I wouldn't make talking or listen to someone a task
that requires a skill roll.  What I would do however is say that this
situation is making it more difficult to work effectively, and thus
increase the difficulty level of the task.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 23:33:06 -0700
Subject: Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)

David J. Golden wrote:

>   Going through my email "todo" list, and I've converted this paper to
>HTML. Do you mind if I post it on my web site? If you want to look at 
>it, it's at
> 
>http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Regency/BARDPapers/
>Helios.html                                      ^^^^^^^

Ummmm...  Dave, Helios is in the Reform Coalition, not the Regency.  Just 
though I'd point that out.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 03:16:36 -0400
Subject: SSDS?

   Is the SSDS.PDF document found in the Missouri Archive going to be the
system for constructing detailed ships? I'm really impressed by this piece
of work. If this is going to be it, we'll begin translating and posting some
of our previous ship designs so you all can use them. (Dave Nelson built
most of the ships in question, so I'll have to get his permission first.)
        I'd like to see a T4 version of the standard Rift Trader (a ship
designed by Wildstar) and of the FIDELITY, the modified version from the
TNE-Pocket campaign detailed in TRAVELLER CHRONICLE
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:10:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Nobles

On  1 Sep 96 at 1:35, ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com spewed:

>    Enough of bashing the Peerage!

Sorry, but for the majority of us on this list, as Americans, bashing nobles is 
about as old as the country itself...  :-)

All started with that George III guy, whoever he was...

OTOH, it is going to be important to remember that the nobility of 0 
IE is not the nobility of 1116 IE (Rebellion).

The overwhelming majority of the nobility, and indeed the common folk 
WITHIN the Imperium are going to buy into the Imperial dream, and are 
going to find that their interests and Imperial interests are often 
coincidental.  

When playing GDW's late era Imperium, the nobles were just as likely 
to be scummy as good in some cases.  In year Zero, this should not be 
the case...
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:10:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

On 31 Aug 96 at 19:29, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >         Well, back to writing (and reading the new Tom Clancey.
> >         RECOMEND IT!).
> 
> Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't
> even have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the
> Jack Ryan timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?

Executive Orders...  Definitely a Jack Ryan, if I guess correctly...  
Haven't picked it up, but saw it in a bookstore a couple of days ago. 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 09:34 +0100
Subject: Re: Attributes vs. Skills

I had wanted to avoid this thread but alas I have failed my willpower roll.  My 
job is training Army units and soldiers.  In the last two years, I have seen 
numerous units, (tank, mech.infantry, military police) and thousands of 
individual soldiers (10,000 bound for BH alone).  During this time I have 
observed senior individuals out performed by young privates just out of basic.  
The young privates didn't have the vast amounts of experience but in many cases 
and over a variety of skills, they out performed senior soldiers (with high 
skills).  How could this happen?

When I worked on my MBA, I read about the young entrepreneurs who takes Wall 
Street by storm or the young lawyer that bests the older more experience lawyer. 
 There are many example where having a high attribute (natural ability) allows a 
more inexperienced individual to out performed a more skilled person.

JD
Twolf



------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:43:35 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Darryl Adams wrote:
> >
> >I am interested in the IRC chat, but could you please use either GMT 
> >time or give the Local time plus difference from GMT (eg Sydney is +10 
> >hours GMT)? Time management allways make my mind explode.
> 
> Not wanting to sound stupid but, (too late) never having attended or even 
> bothered looking for an IRC chat zone where would one find this?
> 
> Derek Stanley
Ask your ISP, there should be an IRC Server that you can use locally 
(they change regularly, so if you have a defult setting in a IRC client , 
chech to see if it works.) If you use OS/2, Windows (95 or 3.1) or 
linux, there is an IRC client you can use (IRCII,or the one I use, 
Internet Adventure OS/2). 

When you log on to an Chat session, issue this command /join #TRAVELLER  


There is IRC 101

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 13:23:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller programs

>I don't suppose you did them with a cross-platform tool?  Something that
>creates source generic enough to port over to the more common
>DOS/Win/OS2/*nix systems?

Sorry, Mac-only here.  

I suppose some of the source code is generic, in that Pascal is generic. 
However, most of the source code is U/I code, which won't translate.

I will eventually be converting to Java.  You can hasten that happy day by
sending me a Java development environment - I can't afford it myself right
now :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 13:19:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

>Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
>minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
>so desire.  

Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
use 20mm scale.

So you have a choice: 5mm too large, or 5mm too small.  Standard army sizes
:-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 13:28:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

>Just think of the
>Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes is a stray spark
and
>POOF.

Well, keeping in mind that most passengers on the Hindenburg survived, and
that a starship is stronger than a dirigible, you might have a decent chance.
 It was the blasted reporter freaking out on-air that gave Hindenburg such a
deathtrap reputation.

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:54:41 -0500
Subject: [none]

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:43:17 PST
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #359
>
>In mail you write:
>
>>>How bout Imperial Scouts!  Or is that just a bit too presumtuous?
>
>>         Naw... it sounds like Boy Scouts with a bad case of megalomania :).
>
>I guess you aren't old enough to recall the story in Playboy (back in
>the 60s) where someone came up with cheap nukes, and before you knew
>it, *everybody* had them. At one point Congress is debating a law to
>ban them, and get persuaded not to by the large number of privately
>owned missiles cruising overhead. Including ones from the BSA!
>
>Lovely illustration of missiles woth Boy Scout insignia cruising over
>the capital. :-)
>
>Shades of Tom Lehrer and "Who's Next?" :-)
>
>- --
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


        Oh dear... even disgruntled U.S. Postal Workers had access to these
things?  Wow.  I didn't know that Playboy did post-apocalyptic horror
fiction :).

        I used to know some Boy Scouts... just between you and me, if the
Boy Scouts get the Bomb, we're all doomed :).

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:13:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Year 0

>What do you feel is going on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way
>the government is set up, etc.)

The previous government had proven effective at ruling a small centralized
state.  It was participatory in nature, ruled by an aristocratic senate, and
had been in existence for several hundred years.  As the frontier rapidly
expanded, the old government proved incapable of ruling such a large and
diverse area.  It destabilized and various factions fought for control.
Civil wars ensued, usually led by various charismatic generals, bringing
chaos and economic ruin.  Things eventually got bad enough that virtually
everyone was ready to sacrifice their political participation for the sake
of security.

Dictators rise when participatory governments cannot maintain order.  The
first Emperor was not the greatest soldier of his age, nor the most
respected intellect or talented orator.  He was a supremely ruthless and
gifted politician.  He respected the old institutions and aristocrats,
created a great legal code, reduced corruption, quietly stifled dissent,
and, above all, reestablished order.  The vast majority of the people
supported him, recognizing that they could no longer rule themselves.  The
foundation that the first Emperor established would last for over a thousand
years.

Other than the fact that Cleon renamed the senate, the above could apply to
either Augustus, who I think should be our model, or Cleon.  Cleon was
supported by the lower classes because they were tired of the chaos under
the federation.  The nobles were satisfied by the affirmation of their
titles and their inclusion in the new moot.  The business community above
all things wanted order, protection, and a frontier to exploit.  Look at the
non-Viliani megacorps existing at that time: GSbAG (starships), LSP
(mining), and Tukera (shipping).  They would have all have been interested
in a rapidly expanding frontier and the construction or protection of the
Imperial navy.  Judging from the fact that LSP colonized Mora in 60, the
corporations probably led Imperial expansion with the Imperium itself
struggling to keep up.

There would be plenty of dissent.  Some more established noble families
would see Cleon as an interloper.  Other resistance groups would form to
fight the Imperial institutions that we all know and love: feudalism,
autocracy, the noble class, megacorporations, and tolerance of tyrannical
world governments.  The Ine Givar and the Star Vikings have deep roots.


------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:13:11 +0100
Subject: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

Hi,

	I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.
How do the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are
they given out solely to people in positions of political and economic
power? Landholders? Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility
predating the Third Imperium?

I think this is something that needs to be addressed. There's a great
difference between Duke BlahBlah of the Slyean Nobility becoming 'of
the Third Imperium' compared to Mr. LodsaMoney of Grabbit Industries
becoming a Duke of the Empire - especially as the nobility would be
conferred on thousands (milions?) of individuals virtually at once.

What do think?

Eamon.

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 10:13:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

>But let me also chime and again insist the Marines are based on the Few 
>and the Proud (and maybe not just our Marines).  So yes they should be 
>able to attend the Academy, and yes, it should be the Naval Academy.  You 
>can have them hang out with the dogfaces if you want, but that's not in 
>keeping with (to my mind) the proud traditions that are so integral to 
>the Corps mentality.  They are *not* soldiers, they are *marines*.  To 
>suggest otherwise is an insult, as my dad would insist... ;^)
>
>(Although I heard graduates in the top 25% of their class at West Point 
>are eligible to become Marine officers, though many probably do not take 
>them up on the offer.)
>
>Semper Fi,
>Patrick M.
>
Let me make a comment to Mr. Murphy's musings...as a former U.S. jarhead, I
whole-heartedly agree with you (and your dad).  I would also like to say
that, if you can't be the best, Be All You Can Be.

Doug A.


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:19:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On 2 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >Just think of the
> >Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes is a stray spark
> and
> >POOF.
> 
> Well, keeping in mind that most passengers on the Hindenburg survived, and
> that a starship is stronger than a dirigible, you might have a decent chance.
>  It was the blasted reporter freaking out on-air that gave Hindenburg such a
> deathtrap reputation.
> 


The Hindenburg also was not in deep space at the time of its immolation.

Just an observation, but I think the scenario would be *much* more
dangerous in space on a starship.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #372
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 2 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 373

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Thoughts
         2. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
         3. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         4. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident
         5. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
         6. Response to Ken Whitman
         7. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #371
         9. RE: Response to Ken Whitman 
        10. RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
        11. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        12. RE: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367
        15. Re: Imperial Jarheads
        16. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        17. Re: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?
        18. Re: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?
        19. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
        20. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:38:36 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Thoughts

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
[snip some of my ramblings]
> 
> Hmmm.  I'd wanna check and make sure that you don't end up earning
> skills faster than during your career (find average number per term,
> and see how fast you can get 'em using experience.
> 
> -Merrick

You're right, of course.  OTOH, the book gives _very_ vague guidelines
for assigning experience points anyway, so this was pretty much an issue
already.  I'm not looking to increase the number of skill levels gained
(it'll burn points quickly to optimize your chances), just improve the
flexibility of the system a little.

	Matt  McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:41:01 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

Mike Basinger wrote:
> 
> I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple things
> I would like to see released or posted in the future.
> 

[snip, snip]

> 3. Character sheets in an electronic format: I would love a character,
> sector, ship form I could fill out and print of of my computer. I think
> it is the new trend in gaming, and I think it is long over due.
> 

Keep your eyes open, I'll be surprised if these don't show up on the
web.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:49:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 07:56:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident

I want to thank everyone for their comments. Now I've got some of the juice
I needed to activate a temporary hole in my imagination.
Mosaic Tapestry _______________________________________________________________
								      TRAVELLER
			          Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future

------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:57:06 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

mb> From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: Mon, 2
mb> Sep 1996 00:15:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: T4 stuff I would like to see
mb>
mb> I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple
mb> things I would like to see released or posted in the future.

Perhaps this is something we should all consider doing.  As it appears that
IG is monitoring, perhaps they will listen and respond...

mb> 1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait
mb> till December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the
mb> ones from T:TNE, but I would like to have one from Classic
mb> Traveller period. Maybe IG could a early example to their web page
mb> (hint hint).

What type or scale of map are you looking for?  As I remember the Referee's
manual of MT contained one page maps of: The First Imperium, Rule of Man,
Cultural Regions of the Imperium, and Domains of the Imperium.  Were you
looking for more or less detail?

On a related note, does anyone know how copyright law applies to works
published by defunct companies?  I assume that copyright would still be in
effect and be retained by the copyright holders (ie. IG).  And hence it
would not be possible to make a copy of such a map...  But I do not know.

mb> 2. Re-release The Traveller Adventure: One of the only old
mb> Traveller books I have is a copy of The Traveller Adventure (The
mb> Big Red Book). It is a great multi-session adventure. I think it
mb> would big a good adventure for IG to release.

The problem with doing this is that it is strongly tied to Spinward
Marches, and the Vargr areas of the Third Imperium.  As it appears that IG
will not be visiting those areas for a while.  However, I agree that in
addition to published  single and multiple session adventures, that
frameworks for larger scale champaigns be published as well.

mb> 3. Character sheets in an electronic format: I would love a
mb> character, sector, ship form I could fill out and print of of my
mb> computer. I think it is the new trend in gaming, and I think it is

I'm glad you asked this...  As I was wondering what to do with my "creation"...
When, I first saw the form posted on IG's site, I decided that I wanted to
create a form for myself...  I was just about to fire up a Graphics program
when I realized that I would want to have the form in a format where I
could fill out and print characters that I had created and have it look
great when laser or ink-jet printed.  So instead I created a FileMaker Pro
(3.0, for the Mac) form based on but not identical to IG's.

I used 3.0 because, I figured that in the future I might wish to expand
upon the databases and need to have it be capable of Relationships.
However...  I do own a PC Card for my Mac and own FileMaker Pro 2.0 for
both the Mac and PC.  I could be convinced to convert it over to FMP 2.0
for both Mac and PC.  In fact I had already planned to do so.  The question
I have is where should I post what I have done already?

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:19:50 -0400
Subject: Response to Ken Whitman

>From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
>Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:09:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #369

>The reason I like this mailing list is that you guys are very inventive.
>IG only write rules as guidlines and you guys have to figure out how to
>play them.  However, once in a blue moon I try to stear you guys in a
>direction when things go off a stray.
   You mean we get off topic now and then?! Nahhhh.....

>IG is not here to make canon or tell someone what is right or wrong.  You
>(the players) have to figure out what is best for you and your players.
>Help each other figure things out, and remember its fun to talk about all
>this stuff but its best when you are playing it.
>
>BTW, keep up the presser on the retail stores, and dont forget to play
>Traveller there every once in a while.

        Well, I'll be running TRAVELLER this Friday night and probably for a
number of weeks to come-my players are so hyped they won't let me NOT run
it. And since I'm running two groups in two different time periods (Year 0
and the Virus Era), I suspect I'll be playing a lot of T4!

By the way, Ken, while we've got you on the line, I'm going to air my one
big gripe (my only big gripe) about the new game. The character sheet is too
small!
When you can't fit your skills in the skill section and your character has
only served four terms in the Navy, there's a problem. I realize this is
niggling, and that the sheet is probably the way it is for space
considerations, but how about having someone design a two sided sheet with
more room for skills and maybe the equipment stuff on the back, and then put
it up on the web site (two GIFS, one for the front, one for the back.) Maybe
later it can be part of a pack of useful forms you could include with the GM
screen.
                         Thanks for listening,
                                        Allen Shock

>


------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:49:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

One thought that just occurred to me re characteristics vs skill
rules, would be to say that the skill level puts a limit on how much
of the characteristic can be used, say x3, thus:

skill	max attribute	total max
level	usable		asset
1	3		4
2	6		8
3	9		12
4	12		16
...

in other words, the max modifier is x4 the skill level.

I see this as being justified in that having the inherent
attribute is a big help, but only if you know how to use
it properly...

Does this give too much advantage to those with high skills?
I guess not, because they can only use the asset that they
would have had anyway. 

Or does it screw the skill system up too much? I guess at
low levels it might make the asset too small.

The multiplier could be changed, or there could be some
non-linear settings to skew in favour of lower skill
levels.

Just a thought...

Mark Buckley

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:18:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #371

>From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
>Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:09:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #369
>
>The reason I like this mailing list is that you guys are very inventive.
>IG only write rules as guidlines and you guys have to figure out how to
>play them.  However, once in a blue moon I try to stear you guys in a
>direction when things go off a stray.
>
>Some of the questions you raise are neat and cool, like taking two
>different actions and dividing them by two.  We never thought of that, but
>its a good idea.
>
>IG is not here to make cannon or tell someone what is right or wrong.  You
>(the players) have to figure out what is best for you and your players.
>Help each other figure things out, and remember its fun to talk about all
>this stuff but its best when you are playing it.
>
>BTW, keep up the presser on the retail stores, and dont forget to play
>Traveller there every once in a while.

Uh, I'll admit to being new to the RPG industry, but isn't this kinda weird.
I mean here the RPG company is telling us to make our own variants of the
rules and that their stuff isn't necessarily canon and that we each make
upour own canon.  Sheesh, you'd think these people were trying to make us
happy or womething.  :)  Really, though, good work IG, and thanks Ken.

>- -Ken Whitman
>
>Students steal, artist barrow - Pacaso
>

PS - Uh, Ken, If you send your messages to me first, I'll proof read them
and return them to you ASAP. :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:29:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Response to Ken Whitman 

In Reply to Your Message of Mon, 02 Sep 1996 11: 19:50 EDT
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 11:29:43 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: When you can't fit your skills in the skill section and your character has
: only served four terms in the Navy, there's a problem. I realize this is
: niggling, and that the sheet is probably the way it is for space
: considerations, but how about having someone design a two sided sheet with
: more room for skills and maybe the equipment stuff on the back, and then put
: it up on the web site (two GIFS, one for the front, one for the back.) Maybe
: later it can be part of a pack of useful forms you could include with the GM
: screen.

I agree with Allen on this one (hey, Al, I'll be expecting $5.00 now
that I responded to one of your posts).  8)

However, I must say that you should probably just make it available as
either a PostScript or Encapsulated PostScript file.  PS and EPS are
more portable and easier to print.  Also, they can be configured to
anyone's whims by most modern day wordprocessors.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:46:43 -0800
Subject: RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

On  2 Sep 96 at 7:27, J D Burdick spewed:

> In supplement 10: The Solomani rim, page 7; it states the Vegan have
> a lifespan of 200 years.  You are correct, many Vegan alive in 1200
> would remember back before the collapse.

Good point.  Just about any adult Vegan would be a remnant...
Heck in 1200, many of them would remember the Solomani Rim War...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:46:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On  2 Sep 96 at 10:19, Tom Ellis spewed:

> The Hindenburg also was not in deep space at the time of its
> immolation.
> 
> Just an observation, but I think the scenario would be *much* more
> dangerous in space on a starship.

Yup, especially seeing as the only oxygen supply for hundreds of 
thousands of miles is both fueling the fire, and being breathed by 
the crew...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 17:44 +0100
Subject: RE: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

Eamon;

The Sylean Federation did have nobility prior to the Third Imperium.  They 
maintained their noble titles after Cleon came to power.  Remember Cleon was one 
of them.  As other worlds joined the Imperium the nobility of the new planet 
maintained their worldly title and were given Imperium ones.  That was one 
reason why many leaders decided to join the Imperium instead of fight.  It was a 
very effective tool for Cleon to use.  Join me and I will knight you or fight me 
I will destroy you.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 18:17 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367

In-Reply-To: <9609011219.AA09818@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
> Subject: re: 15 or 25mm
>
> Traveller has long been associated with 15mm figures.  In fact, my > 
first 15s were probably 
> Martian Metals Trav adventurers.  AHL and Snapshot were in 15 scale.  

Don't forget the Grenadier 25mm Traveller sets. They were pretty good, 
although a bit expensive.

> No one makes figures better than Mithril.  Hmmm, maybe they could 
> produce a Traveller line? 

Check out Denizen's SF range. Well-proportioned, lots of detail, and 
there are even some wearing Zho Combat Armour...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 18:17 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367

In-Reply-To: <9609011219.AA09818@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
> Subject: re: 15 or 25mm
>
> Traveller has long been associated with 15mm figures.  In fact, my > 
first 15s were probably 
> Martian Metals Trav adventurers.  AHL and Snapshot were in 15 scale.  

Don't forget the Grenadier 25mm Traveller sets. They were pretty good, 
although a bit expensive.

> No one makes figures better than Mithril.  Hmmm, maybe they could 
> produce a Traveller line? 

Check out Denizen's SF range. Well-proportioned, lots of detail, and 
there are even some wearing Zho Combat Armour...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

At 10:13 AM 9/2/96 -0500, Doug Amlin wrote:
>

>Let me make a comment to Mr. Murphy's musings...as a former U.S. jarhead, I
>whole-heartedly agree with you (and your dad).  I would also like to say
>that, if you can't be the best, Be All You Can Be.
>
>

The score at the end of the first round!

Seagoing Bellhops: 2
Ground Pounders  : 0

:) :) 

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:10:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

 
> >Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
> >minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
> >so desire.  
> 
> Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
> use 20mm scale.
> 
> So you have a choice: 5mm too large, or 5mm too small.  Standard army sizes
> :-)
 
Wow.  Blink.  25mm is no where *near* 1:72 to my eye.  Shows how
crappy 25mm minis are (they look bigger).  15mm looks about right I
bet because they are also all crappy proportion wise (almost all
minis are over sculpted is the lesson here).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:19:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

Hi,

>	I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.

Already...lucky, you must have T4 already :)

>How do the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are
>they given out solely to people in positions of political and economic
>power? Landholders? Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility
>predating the Third Imperium?

I haven't read anything about the Sylean Federation except what's in the MT
Imperial Encylopedia.

What I figure is that the Federation had a democratic form of government,
which was viable because of the small nature of this interstellar gov't.
Once Cleon proclaimed the Imperium, (he was probably president of the Sylean
Federation) he took his top elected members (senators, etc.) and made them
nobles, which gave him a core group of important and respected people who
shared his opinions.  THis would allow Cleon to have most nobles on his side
on each issue.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he fostered some underhanded dealings as
well.  For instance, blackmail, etc. to keep some nobles on his side.

Again, the above is my own personal conjecture :)

Thanks,

Peter Miller


       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:19:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

Hi,

>	I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.

Already...lucky, you must have T4 already :)

>How do the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are
>they given out solely to people in positions of political and economic
>power? Landholders? Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility
>predating the Third Imperium?

I haven't read anything about the Sylean Federation except what's in the MT
Imperial Encylopedia.

What I figure is that the Federation had a democratic form of government,
which was viable because of the small nature of this interstellar gov't.
Once Cleon proclaimed the Imperium, (he was probably president of the Sylean
Federation) he took his top elected members (senators, etc.) and made them
nobles, which gave him a core group of important and respected people who
shared his opinions.  THis would allow Cleon to have most nobles on his side
on each issue.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he fostered some underhanded dealings as
well.  For instance, blackmail, etc. to keep some nobles on his side.

Again, the above is my own personal conjecture :)

Thanks,

Peter Miller


       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:19:36 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

>I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple things 
>I would like to see released or posted in the future.

THey're doing an excellent job!  I can't think of a company I've dealt with
that has had better comsumer service.

>1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait till 
>December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the ones from 
>T:TNE, but I would like to have one from Classic Traveller period. Maybe 
>IG could a early example to their web page (hint hint).

Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
It can be folded any way you want and doesn't tear or rip as easy as paper.
I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.

>2. Re-release The Traveller Adventure: One of the only old Traveller 
>books I have is a copy of The Traveller Adventure (The Big Red Book). It 
>is a great multi-session adventure. I think it would big a good adventure 
>for IG to release.

How about, release an adventure?  I'd like any adventure from IG to be
either published formally or on the Web.  At the ery least how about
HTMLizing some of the old 'double adventures' and such I've heard of, they
have always looked good, and I'm sure they could be converted to Year O.

Secondly, will there we a spot on IG's web page for fans to give you created
material.  IG could become a spot for not only 'official' material as well
as fan-made :)

>3. Character sheets in an electronic format: I would love a character, 
>sector, ship form I could fill out and print of of my computer. I think 
>it is the new trend in gaming, and I think it is long over due.

I've been looking for something like this for a while, but to no avail.  I
agree with you here in the form too, I don't want a gif I can print out but
a fill out form (perhaps in RTF format?) that I can print out filled in from
my computer.

Thanks,

Peter Miller


       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:19:36 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

>I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple things 
>I would like to see released or posted in the future.

THey're doing an excellent job!  I can't think of a company I've dealt with
that has had better comsumer service.

>1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait till 
>December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the ones from 
>T:TNE, but I would like to have one from Classic Traveller period. Maybe 
>IG could a early example to their web page (hint hint).

Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
It can be folded any way you want and doesn't tear or rip as easy as paper.
I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.

>2. Re-release The Traveller Adventure: One of the only old Traveller 
>books I have is a copy of The Traveller Adventure (The Big Red Book). It 
>is a great multi-session adventure. I think it would big a good adventure 
>for IG to release.

How about, release an adventure?  I'd like any adventure from IG to be
either published formally or on the Web.  At the ery least how about
HTMLizing some of the old 'double adventures' and such I've heard of, they
have always looked good, and I'm sure they could be converted to Year O.

Secondly, will there we a spot on IG's web page for fans to give you created
material.  IG could become a spot for not only 'official' material as well
as fan-made :)

>3. Character sheets in an electronic format: I would love a character, 
>sector, ship form I could fill out and print of of my computer. I think 
>it is the new trend in gaming, and I think it is long over due.

I've been looking for something like this for a while, but to no avail.  I
agree with you here in the form too, I don't want a gif I can print out but
a fill out form (perhaps in RTF format?) that I can print out filled in from
my computer.

Thanks,

Peter Miller


       ----------------  PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -----------------

 * Maquis Roleplaying * Teen Federation * RPGs * PBeMs * New Frontiers RPG *
       
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ * Personal Homepage
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/maquis * Maquis Roleplaying
      ----------------------------------------------------------------
    www.youngmerlin.com -- Graphics, Web Design, Lowest Prices On the Web   


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #373
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 2 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 374

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         2. A Design question....
         3. Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         4. Re: Imperial Jarheads
         5. Origin of the Nobility
         6. Re: Imperial Jarheads
         7. Re: Marine Officers
         8. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         9. RE: Charateristic vs skills
        10. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
        11. [none]
        12. Re: Origin of the Nobility
        13. Multi-task
        14. What is IG's copyright policy?
        15. Minis & Whiteboards
        16. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        17. Re: Imperial Jarheads
        18. RE: Charateristic vs skills
        19. IRC and Time Zones
        20. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #372

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:35:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

>Just think of the Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes
is a >stray spark and POOF.

This didn't happen to the Akron.  Helium, which the Akron used, is just a
touch less explosive that Hydrogen.  

 
Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:04:18 -0400
Subject: A Design question....

        Say you wanted to have an orbital shipyard capable of constructing
four or five ships a time of up to 50,000 tons displacement. How big would
it need to be? What would be the levels of staffing? The place is
computer-controlled for the most part, and uses robots for a good part of
the heavy labor.
        Anyone want to take a guess as to what uncompleted epic adventure
series from TNE I'm working on? :) Any help that could be offered would be
appreciated, and the finished project will be shared with those who helped.
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Sep 1996 20:45:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

>But, when it really counts and something is really hosed, stuff's got to
>be put on hold and tasks have to be prioritized.

True, but you still have to explain to those being put on hold that they will
have to be patient.


>With interuptions, I wouldn't make talking or listen to someone a task
>that requires a skill roll.  What I would do however is say that this
>situation is making it more difficult to work effectively, and thus
>increase the difficulty level of the task.

Exactly what I had in mind.  If a character is fixing the airraft while
participating in a discussion (or answering questions from a pesky
passenger/reporter), then I would count the discussion as a task with
automatic success.  But the character's attribute would still be halved. 
Highly skilled characters can kibitz, those who are deriving things from
first principles must concentrate.

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:45:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

>At 10:13 AM 9/2/96 -0500, Doug Amlin wrote:
>>
>
>>Let me make a comment to Mr. Murphy's musings...as a former U.S. jarhead, I
>>whole-heartedly agree with you (and your dad).  I would also like to say
>>that, if you can't be the best, Be All You Can Be.
>>
>>
>
>The score at the end of the first round!
>
>Seagoing Bellhops: 2
>Ground Pounders  : 0
>
>:) :) 
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>-=-=-
>Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
>http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
>VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
>FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."
>
>

Touche, Sir

Doug


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 16:11:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Origin of the Nobility

Hi,

>From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
>Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:13:11 +0100
>Subject: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

>Hi,

>	I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.
>How do the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are
>they given out solely to people in positions of political and economic
>power? Landholders? Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility
>predating the Third Imperium?

I have always had the impression that the nobility predated the 3rd
Imperium; altho I'm no longer entirely sure where I got that impression.

I think that they are the remnants of the old Terran naval officers who
filled the shoes of the older Vilani bureaucrats after the Terran
conquest. These then evolved into the warlords who fought it out amongst
themselves during the Long Night. They then became harbingers of
civilisation when they rallied round the flag to form the Sylean
Federation and, later, the Imperium.

I've always figured that their power came from control of the inter-
stellar navies (see the character generation rules in CT: social stand-
ing is very important in the navy) rather than landholdings (they seem
to have little power in most world governments).

>Eamon.

Rob


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:27:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)had a navy clerk say for him:

>Let me make a comment to Mr. Murphy's musings...as a former U.S. jarhead, I
>whole-heartedly agree with you (and your dad).  I would also like to say
>that, if you can't be the best, Be All You Can Be.

This means war.

Battle of Yorktown:  Continental ARMY is backed up by the Navy and Marines..
French Marines.

Washington, War of 1812:  Capital burned after Marine retreat.

China, 1930s:  4th Marine Regiment fails to notice incresing strength of
Japanese Army in China.. evacuated to the Philipines, they surrender en masse.

Normandy, June 6th, 1944:  Overlord, the largest amphibious invasion in
history happens.  There are no USMC units involved.

Inchon, Korean War:  MacArthur splits the North Korean lines with a daring
amphibious invasion, led by the 7th Infantry Division (US Army)

Chosin Resivoir, Korean War:  After marching into a trap, USMC turns around
in full retreat.

Korea, post war: South Korean goverment requests US troops remain, but asks
that the Marines be withdrawn.

"From the Mud of Parris Island,
To the sands of Waikiki,
We'll confuse the Navy doctors
With new forms of VD"



 


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:27:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

 JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick) wrote:

>I allow players who want to be Marine officers to earn their commissions in
>any of the following ways:  Naval Academy (Marine Option), Military Academy
>(Rare but it is done), NROTC (Marine Option), or OCS (already part of
>character generation; Commission roll). The boot camp for officers is
>already included in all of these options because while attending an
Academy, >college or OCS the character receives the first term skills of a
marine >officers.  Most first term skills are a result of schooling.  That
is part >of the reason why first terms have higher numbers of skills.

There is a vast difference between what happens at the Infantry School at
Ft. Benning, GA, and what happens at a college ROTC course.  Basic Training
is 16 weeks of solid, intensive work to make you an infantryman.  It is
brutal, hard work.  ROTC is a class that you take for maybe 6 or 7 hours a
week, along with your other classes and social life at school.  For two
weeks in the summer, you go to a real unit, where you are basically ignored
by everyone.

After graduation, you are suddenly an Officer of the United States Army.
You attend the Infantry Officers Basic Course (or Armor.. I'm sticking with
what I know) and are declared to be ready to lead men into combat.

There is a reason that 2nd Lieutenants are considered to be worthless.. they
are for the most part.  They have little or no kmowledge of how the Army
works, are in a position where they are responsible for the lives of 40+
men, and may have signed for millions in equipment.

The best officers don't come from West Point or the Citidal.. they are the
ones who rose through the ranks, went to OCS, and bring their real world
knowledge of military matters into their careers as officers.

Most Marines will probably make Corporal in T4 before being selected.  These
guys have proved themselves.  There is an element of nepotism (the SOC bonus
for commission/promotion) but if every Colonel in command of a Regiment
remembers his days as PFC Nobody, the system will, IMHO, run better.

>Semper Fi

United States Infantry- "Follow Me!"

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 14:59:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

On 09/02/96 at 03:49 PM,  mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox) said:

>One thought that just occurred to me re characteristics vs skill rules,
>would be to say that the skill level puts a limit on how much of the
>characteristic can be used, say x3, thus:

>skill	max attribute	total max
>level	usable		asset
>1	3		4
>2	6		8
>3	9		12
>4	12		16
>...

>in other words, the max modifier is x4 the skill level.

Interesting.  I think you're right about the asset being too low at low
skill levels.  I'm *not* going to do another analysis of it though, but I'd
like to see it if somebody else does. <g>

I also thought about using the skill level as a multiplier on
attribute. You get some *big* numbers that way. <g>  Too big!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:17:29 +0001
Subject: RE: Charateristic vs skills

One mechanism I've seen in a set of Pike & Musket skirmish rules 
seemed to handle this sort of thing very nicely. Raw recruits hit 
their opposition as frequently as veterans. This was on the assumpton 
that the weapons of the time were fairly innacurate. The difference 
was on misfires. Raw recruits had three times as many misfires.

A similar mechanism could apply in Traveller. Use the attributes for 
success or failure, but the skill to determine what happens when 
things go wrong. The neophyte tries to mend a circuit board and 
fails, ending up shorting out the whole auxiliary power system. The 
veteran also fails to mend the board, but all he does is damage 
another component - which he can replace and carry on. 
======================================================================
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:14:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On  2 Sep 96 at 7:27, J D Burdick spewed:
> 
>> In supplement 10: The Solomani rim, page 7; it states the Vegan have
>> a lifespan of 200 years.  You are correct, many Vegan alive in 1200
>> would remember back before the collapse.
> 
> Good point.  Just about any adult Vegan would be a remnant...
> Heck in 1200, many of them would remember the Solomani Rim War...

As good a supplement as it is, and there's some great stuff in there.  
I've chosen to ignore both pocket empires presented in TC10.  The Vegan's 
should have their own pocket empire as should the Solomani (Terran 
region) I don't have a problem with a Dingir PE too.  The only problem is 
these things are huge, 20+ stars each.  This throws the whole ballance of 
power in TNE out the window.  The two big players are supposed to be the 
RC and the Regency, suddenly there's 4 big players two of whom are more 
interested in duking it out with each other than they are with returning 
the light of civilization to the galaxy.

Don't get me wrong I like the ideas behind both pocket empires, they're 
just too big.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 13:16:07 +0100
Subject: [none]

>After working hard to get my NPC engineers aboard my PC's starship I now
>need to kill them in spectacular fashion.  My concept: As the NPCs are
>conducting maintenance on the power plant of this 138 year old ship the main
>fuel feed line bursts flooding the compartment with refined fuel.
>
>Questions:
>
>1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?

Depending upon fuel flow, temperature, and electronics condition, the
engineers will either fry or freeze... "Refined Fuel" is nearly pure
cryogenic hydrogen. a leak of the size for a PP will probably result is a
flash-fire if the electronics (or an engineer) generates any spark at all.

>2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

"Slow" fade out (2-3 minutes?) of power as the safeties vent plasma after
detecting loss of fuel input... maybe longer... wait, this is T4/TNE, so
several hours of declining power output. We are looking at fuel needs in
the <=litres per day range.

>3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"

Engineering compartment flash-fry... no oxygen left, and engineers hair
burned off, recognizable corpses.

for catastrophic failure, have a jump drive fuel line burst, and freeze the
Engineers to death in seconds.

William F. Hostman
Aramis@asylumbbs.com





------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:18:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Origin of the Nobility

Robert talked about the roots of the Nobility's power, and I concur with
his assesment that naval power was the real "standard" upon which noble
power was derived, at least in the latter days of the Long Night and the
times of the Sylean Federation and the early Third Imperium.  The ability
to control the spacelanes would be critical, and the warlord/ 
nobles/admrirals could and would "request" any needed resources from their
homeworld governments and corporations.  I do tend to think that more
worlds percentage wise would be under complete noble rule near year 0 than
in year 1100.  Later expansion would outstrip the ability of the nobility
to control each world directly.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 13:16:12 +0100
Subject: Multi-task

>Am I understanding this correctly?  The characteristic is divided by
>the number of actions attempted (rounded down) and the result is
>added to the skill.  Therefore you *always* roll against your full
>skill plus some fraction of the controlling attribute.
>
>Next question. If Bob wants to perform ONE pistol and ONE something
>else during one turn then you divide his controlling characteristic
>for Pistol by 2 and add his skill; and you divide his controlling
>characteristic for something-else by 2 and add his skill for that,
>right?
>
>
>Eris
>- --
Looks right to me...  all of it. At least, it looks like the same
interpretation I got from reading my softcover.

William F. Hostman
Aramis@asylumbbs.com





------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is IG's copyright policy?

Back in May, Ken Whitman of Imperium Games got on the Traveller
Mailing List in order to publicize the coming of "Marc Miller's
Traveller", the new edition of the game, otherwise known as T4
(or Traveller, 4th edition). In order to generate interest over
the game, he offered to deliver questions from TML members to
Marc. Although I never got an answer to it (they've been rather
busy during the past few months, and understandably so), this is
the one that I sent. I decided to include it here as an open
letter since it more or less concerns all of us.

From: Jim Vassilakos (jimv@empirenet.com)
Subject: question for marc or whomever
To: Ken Whitman (whitman@wisenet.net)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT)

Hi, Ken. You said on the TML that you were collecting questions
for Marc Miller. Well, here's mine:

As you are probably already aware, Traveller enthusiasts on the
Internet have been creating and distributing various works which
are compatible with (and in some cases might arguably be
derivative of) professionally published Traveller material. These
fan-authored works typically consist of computer programs, world
write-ups, character write-ups, adventures, stories, and a wide
assortment of other articles which are reminiscent of what one
might find in an old JTAS. Nearly all the professional games
publishers recognize that their fans are doing this, and except
for the condition that this fan-authored material be made
available free of charge, almost all of these publishers condone
(and sometimes even assist) this activity on the part of their
fans. I say "almost", because one roleplaying games publisher
sticks out like a sore-thumb for its unwillingness to condone
fan-authored works which are compatible with its game system (and
this publisher has even threatened its own fans with legal
action, although it has never been willing to openly discuss the
legal specifics behinds its rationale). I am, of course, speaking
of TSR, the great-granddaddy of RPG publishers. Now my question
to you is, what is your/Imperium Games' policy toward
fan-authored Traveller-compatible works which are distributed
free of charge over the Internet?

For more information on the TSR/Copyright controversy, please
see ftp://ftp.cs.pdx.edu/pub/frp/tsr/debate.zip or see my
homepage at http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

Looking forward to hearing from you...   jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 13:16:15 +0100
Subject: Minis & Whiteboards

>Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
>>
>> So, about this whole 15mm vs 25mm thing:
>>
>> Is it overly greedy on my part to want BOTH?
>
>NO!  (or if it is, color me greedy :) )
>
>When I saw this thread, I was thinking the exact same thing.  25mm for
>roleplaying and 15mm for large scale or starship combat (got all those
>deckplans, don't you know?).

 I might do 15mm, but I would NOT do 25mm... also, I prefer plastic or
resin minis over metal (lighter, easy to carry, easier to paint).

Personally, I'd rather have 5mm scale when I use minis (I have a small GW
Epic Scale collection). 1 squad per 2cm base. Vehicles are nice and small.
I only use minis for big backdrop combats (ala the anime genre); for up
close and personal, I use my whiteboard (Paid US$15 for it at Costco 7
years ago) for combat and exploration type gunk.

5mm is great for large scale minis... battalions can be clashing on a
kitchen table... regiments or brigades on a games table. And GW has already
got quite a range of useable vehicles in 5mm (Epic Scale). And the infantry
are interchangeable. Oh, yes, I can run 5mm company actions on my
whiteboard, laying it flat on my hassoc.

William F. Hostman
Aramis@asylumbbs.com





------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:47:15 -0600
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Chris Cox wrote:
> 
> >Just think of the Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes
> is a >stray spark and POOF.
> 
> This didn't happen to the Akron.  Helium, which the Akron used, is just a
> touch less explosive that Hydrogen.
> 
> Just a touch?  Then my admittedly limited knowledge of chemistry is worse
than I thought.  I was under the impression that helium is classed as a
noble (a.k.a. inert) gas and the reason it is used for airships is because
it doesn't react with oxygen.

In fact, that's why (I thought) helium is widely used in balloons of all
sorts, even the kind handed out to kids in shopping malls.

Am I wrong?  
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

As a former US Navy sailor let me say this about my Marine bretheren.  Yes,
I said bretheren as they are also part of the Department of the Navy.

I cannot in good concience disparage the US Marines.  They are very good at
what they do and they perform functions that no other branch of the US (or
any other) military can perform.  They provide our country with a wide
variety of services and should be recognised for this contribution.

After all...  they have been guarding our US Navy gates for almost 300 years
and they have not lost one yet! :) :) {ducking real quick!}
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:07:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Charateristic vs skills

On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Nick Meredith wrote:

[snippeee!]
> A similar mechanism could apply in Traveller. Use the attributes for 
> success or failure, but the skill to determine what happens when 
> things go wrong. The neophyte tries to mend a circuit board and 
> fails, ending up shorting out the whole auxiliary power system. The 
> veteran also fails to mend the board, but all he does is damage 
> another component - which he can replace and carry on. 

Nick,

It's pretty obvious to me that I've been missing out on a lot by being 
very straight-forward in my handling of failure and success.  What you 
point out here is a very good example of how such things should be done.  
It takes more work to consider such factors in determining the effects of 
failure, but it certainly will be worthwhile to do so, I think.  I 
believe players will think so, too!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 18:08:00 -0500
Subject: IRC and Time Zones

  The Internet not being an exclusively American thing, some of
  our readers may not be familiar with the American time zone
  names.  Thus, this brief.

  Eastern Time (New York and Miami) is five hours behind UTC
  normally. (UTC - 5)

  Central Time (Chicago and Houston) is six hours behind UTC
  normally. (UTC - 6)

  Mountain Time (Denver and Phoenix) is seven hours behind UTC
  normally. (UTC - 7)

  Pacific Time (Seattle and San Diego) is eight hours behind UTC
  normally. (UTC - 8)

  Alaska/Hawaii Time (Nome and Honolulu) is ten hours behind UTC
  normally. (UTC - 10)

  Most of the United States is on Daylight Savings Time (what is
  elsewhere called "Summer Time") from the first Sunday in April
  to the final Sunday in October.

  UTC and GMT are the same, except when GMT is British Summer
  Time.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Brain cell currently disengaged ...


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:14:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #372

Ken Whitman said: 
> >What do you feel is going on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way
> >the government is set up, etc.)

Sam said:
> Other than the fact that Cleon renamed the senate, the above could apply to
> either Augustus, who I think should be our model, or Cleon.

	I'd actually rather not see Imperial history just be a rehash of 
Roman history.  Similar forces may be at work, but the hi-tech and 
sophisticated Sylean Federation should be more than the Roman Republic in 
space.

> The business community above
> all things wanted order, protection, and a frontier to exploit.  Look at the
> non-Viliani megacorps existing at that time: GSbAG (starships), LSP
> (mining), and Tukera (shipping).  They would have all have been interested
> in a rapidly expanding frontier and the construction or protection of the
> Imperial navy.  Judging from the fact that LSP colonized Mora in 60, the
> corporations probably led Imperial expansion with the Imperium itself
> struggling to keep up.

	I agree with this and think that this should play a large part in 
the early empire.  Rather than the Roman model, perhaps we should look 
more to the colonial expansions of the Dutch, British, and Americans 
during the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Here we see commercial 
interests leading political and military interests.  
	The problems confronting the Sylean Federation may have had to do
with the rapid expansion of the megacorps into non-Federation space where
they were unregulated and engaged in all kinds of less than honorable
activities.  The megacorps supported Cleon initially because they 
believed he was a good businessman like themselves, but he used the power 
of the Imperium to expand Sylea's sphere of control and curb the 
megacorps' worst abuses.  This would have given an impetus for the 'corps 
to move even further out, with the Navy not far behind.  Thus, a mechinism 
for the rapid expansion of the empire is in place.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #374
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 3 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 375

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
         2. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         3. Re: Traveller programs
         4. Re:  T4 Miniatures
         5. non-scum nobles? hogwash!
         6. Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?
         7. Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         8. Looking for Traveller Players in Bloomington, IN area
         9. Re: IRC and Time Zones
        10. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        11. Re: Marine Officers
        12. Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)
        13. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367
        15. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
        16. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #372
        18. Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:21:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

On  2 Sep 96 at 14:14, Derek Stanley spewed:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > 
> > On  2 Sep 96 at 7:27, J D Burdick spewed:
> > 
> >> In supplement 10: The Solomani rim, page 7; it states the Vegan
> >> have a lifespan of 200 years.  You are correct, many Vegan alive
> >> in 1200 would remember back before the collapse.
> > 
> > Good point.  Just about any adult Vegan would be a remnant... Heck
> > in 1200, many of them would remember the Solomani Rim War...
> 
> As good a supplement as it is, and there's some great stuff in
> there.  I've chosen to ignore both pocket empires presented in TC10.
>  The Vegan's should have their own pocket empire as should the
> Solomani (Terran region) I don't have a problem with a Dingir PE
> too.  The only problem is these things are huge, 20+ stars each. 
> This throws the whole ballance of power in TNE out the window.  The
> two big players are supposed to be the RC and the Regency, suddenly
> there's 4 big players two of whom are more interested in duking it
> out with each other than they are with returning the light of
> civilization to the galaxy.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I like the ideas behind both pocket empires,
> they're just too big.
> 
> Derek Stanley

I haven't seen this article, but what you're saying sounds pretty 
feasible...

Yup...  A strong pair of pocket empires in Solomani Rim would 
probably be able to squash the RC like a bug...

Of course, I was never too crazy about the RC anyways...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:03:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

Paul Walker wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification, Ken.  I now see somewhat the importance of
> this, but for the example we have been using, the Survey skill, I don't know
> how important multiple actions are.  I understand the useage (and honestly,
> I had forgotten when I posted my fix) for the combat setting, and I would
> agree, but the problem IMO is really with the non-combat skills.
> 
> Paul  {tiger}

Actually, I think it is applicable to something like survey.  Assuming that this 
is applied at an orbital level (I still don't have T4, drat this real world), your 
well educated character (sorry, forgot the numbers.....) would have a better chance 
at doing _one_ type of survey (say something equivelant to a releaf map).  But, if 
whoever asked for that survey also wanted population densities, and power distribution
centers, and .......  If time is a luxury (from my position, it never is), your low-
skill, high-edu person could do a better job, but the high-skill, low-edu person could
do it faster.

This sounds like an aspect that I do like (if I could only get a hold of a copy and 
read it).  I'll still have problems with the quassian distribution and .5d6 though.....

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:11:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller programs

Eris Reddoch wrote (refering to Java):
> I think it's likely
> to become the BASIC of the 90's.
> That's to bad, I had hoped it would be a halfway decent language..... ;)

MAN

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re:  T4 Miniatures

>From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>

>What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of standard 

>What I _do not_ want is a pile of oversculpted, overarmed, overarmored, 
>OVERPRICED Games Workshop crap.  I have asked people at several mini companies 

What Steve said!  Why do we see figures with weapons that are obviously too
big to carry?  Ok, we have gravitic assistance (FGIP-15, e.g.), but not for
_every_ weapon.  I usually cut the weapons down to size with an Exacto knife
and metal files, but I'd prefer just to buy them usable off the shelf.

I look for human proportions on miniature human figures; for that reason,
that I often use HO scale plastic figures (Airfix, Esci, Ertl, Matchbox).
The Grenadier 25mm Traveller figures were right on, too.

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>On 1 Sep 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> What I want are a good line of 25mm _characters_, with a few sets of
standard 

>You've covered a lot there, but since we're dreaming anyway, I'd add:
>
>- - a complete set of bar room figures (bar, tables, bartender, 2 servers)

Here some existing fantasy miniatures could work (as long as your bar was
going for the "Pioneers' Inn" look).  

>- - a TAS set! Go whole hog!  Do the typical TAS office (a few desks, a 

Good idea!  I once had a firefight in and around a TAS hostel room (which
I've described here before, I think, or maybe on xboat), which we had to lay
out with matches on a half-inch grid map.

>- - An Imperial Court Set!  Nobles, throne, the whole bit.  Again, this would
>  be useful for other settings as well - any time you need a majestic court
>  scene.

Like those Atlantic sets "Mao and the Chinese Revolution" and "Lenin and the
Russian Revolution"?  Cool -- or maybe more like the Atlantic Coliseum set?
After all, the Imperial Court will be big.  I visualize it looking somewhat
like the imperial court in the Jodorwsky/Moebius three-part graphic novel
"The Incal."  Now certainly, it would grow with time, but even by the Year
0, Cleon would've been in power in the Sylean federation for some time and
would have a really big meeting place.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: non-scum nobles? hogwash!

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>OTOH, it is going to be important to remember that the nobility of 0 
>IE is not the nobility of 1116 IE (Rebellion).
>
>The overwhelming majority of the nobility, and indeed the common folk 
>WITHIN the Imperium are going to buy into the Imperial dream, and are 
>going to find that their interests and Imperial interests are often 
>coincidental.  

Stu, it looks like the 0 IE nobles' marketing people have completely
brainwashed you.  The nobles of 0 IE became nobles by holding on to whatever
their ancestors had managed to grab during and after the collapse of the
Rule of Man -- and those ancestors had been carpetbaggers in the collapsed
Ziru Sirka.  Nobles have a predisposition -- possibly genetic -- to violence
and theft.  They had in 1116 IE, they had it in 0 IE, they even had it 1500
AD -- and at all other times in human history.  

That's not to say that nobles are stupid -- to the contrary.  If their
interests and the Imperium's coincide, they'll certainly support the
Imperium.  It's in their interests to appear to have the people's good in
mind, so they appear to act appropriately.  It's in their best interests to
hide or deny evidence of past violence and theft, so they do.  

"Daddy, how did we come to be the dukes of this subsector?" -or-
"Your Grace, how did your family come to be the dukes of this this subsector?"

"Well, after our glorious Solomani ancestors pushed over the already rotten
and decadent Vilani empire, they sent administrators to teach the Vilani how
to improve themselves.  Our many-times great-grandfather, Lucius O'Trigger,
the commander of a small but brave fleet, was sent to pacify and adminster
this region.  Lucius conquered the rebels and wons the hearts of the local
people.  He then set about rebuilding the subsector, setting a good example
by personally purchasing several industrial and agricultural concerns that
needed to be turned around.  He succeeded so well that the Terran government
did not see fit to send a replacement when he retired, and asked that he
select his own successor.  He chose his first-born daughter, Lucia, who
assumed the title of Admiral and control of the business interests.  Over
time, the Terran government evolved into the Rule of Man, in a story you
well know, and the best of the Terran military governors were created
nobles.  Lucia's son Lucash was the First Duke of the subsector...."

Do I need to deconstruct this typical family myth, or can I leave it as an
exercise for the reader?

- --Glenn



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:39:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sylean Citizens to Nobles - How?

>From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK

>	I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.
>How do the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are
>they given out solely to people in positions of political and economic
>power? Landholders? Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility
>predating the Third Imperium?
>
>I think this is something that needs to be addressed. There's a great

This has been addressed in numerous works that I'm too lazy to cite.  The
history goes like this (caveat lector:  I haven't purported to be objective;
this reflects my view of history.  If you want "just the facts" you'll have
to look at the canon):

A long time ago, the Terrans crushed the 10,000 year-old Vilani Empire (the
Ziru Sirka), and sent military governors to rule it.  This overextended the
Terran government's resources.  Seizing on this instability, an ambitious
admiral named Estagarribia declared himself emperor, and formed the second
empire, formally called the Rule of Man. 

The Rule of Man (also called the Ramshackle Empire) barely held itself
together long enough for the Terrans (now known as Solomani, because many
were no longer born on or anywhere near Terra) to grab virtually all of
power and wealth in what had been the Ziru Sirka.  The descendants of the
military governors sent by the Terran government to consolidate gains and
kill any Vilani still interested in fighting the N+1 Interstellar War became
the nobility of the Rule of Man.

When the RoM collapsed, the nobles held on to what they had (as nobles do --
as anyone does), and formed "pocket empires" out of what they controlled.
By the time Cleon was running the Sylean empire, there were many nobles with
sizeable holdings who wanted a free hand to keep on extracting wealth for
generations to come.  Cleon needed the nobles' support to form the Third
Imperium, so guaranteed to confirm their titles and powers.  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 03 Sep 1996 03:32:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

>> The Hindenburg also was not in deep space at the time of its
>> immolation.
>> 
>> Just an observation, but I think the scenario would be *much* more
>> dangerous in space on a starship.
>
>Yup, especially seeing as the only oxygen supply for hundreds of 
>thousands of miles is both fueling the fire, and being breathed by 
>the crew...

On the other hand, ships are designed with a lot of fire-fighting
capabilities built in, for just that reason.  Air-tight bulkheads would slow
things down a lot.

------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:46:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for Traveller Players in Bloomington, IN area

I'm planning to start a Traveller campaign this fall. I'm looking for
players in the Bloomington, IN area who would be interested in
joining. I'm looking for 4-6 more players. If you are interested
please e-mail dbasinge@copper.ucs.indiana.edu

Mike Basinger


- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:59:22 +0000
Subject: Re: IRC and Time Zones

What, you're not going to get into the Daylight savings time issue?  
Then Denver and Phoenix aren't the same time zone :-)  We're a little 
saner in Arizona.  We don't feel the need to rearrange our lives by 
an hour twice a year :-)

Suz

>   The Internet not being an exclusively American thing, some of
>   our readers may not be familiar with the American time zone
>   names.  Thus, this brief.
> 
>   Eastern Time (New York and Miami) is five hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 5)
> 
>   Central Time (Chicago and Houston) is six hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 6)
> 
>   Mountain Time (Denver and Phoenix) is seven hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 7)
> 
>   Pacific Time (Seattle and San Diego) is eight hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 8)
> 
>   Alaska/Hawaii Time (Nome and Honolulu) is ten hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 10)
> 
>   Most of the United States is on Daylight Savings Time (what is
>   elsewhere called "Summer Time") from the first Sunday in April
>   to the final Sunday in October.
> 
>   UTC and GMT are the same, except when GMT is British Summer
>   Time.
> 
> ==========================================================================
> Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
> ---
>  ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Brain cell currently disengaged ...
> 
> 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:24:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Yer right - only 37 (still bad if you were one...) fatalities on the
Hindenburg, as I seem to have read... - Bill

At 08:50 AM 9/2/96 EST, you wrote:
>>Just think of the
>>Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes is a stray spark
>and
>>POOF.
>
>Well, keeping in mind that most passengers on the Hindenburg survived, and
>that a starship is stronger than a dirigible, you might have a decent chance.
> It was the blasted reporter freaking out on-air that gave Hindenburg such a
>deathtrap reputation.
>


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:07:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

At 07:47 am 9/2/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I allow players who want to be Marine officers to earn their commissions in
any 
>of the following ways:  Naval Academy (Marine Option), Military Academy (Rare 
>but it is done), NROTC (Marine Option), or OCS (already part of character 

        Given the earlier comment that Trav Military resembles US military
organization, any of these options would work. It's not unheard of for an
officer candidate in one branch to actually receive a commission in another.
Every year, a few Naval Academy graduates choose an Air Force commission, etc.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:07:39 -0600
Subject: Re: BARD Paper: Helios (LONG)

At 11:33 pm 9/1/96 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>   Going through my email "todo" list, and I've converted this paper to
>>HTML. Do you mind if I post it on my web site? If you want to look at 
>>it, it's at
>> 
>>http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Resources/Regency/BARDPapers/
>>Helios.html                                      ^^^^^^^
>
>Ummmm...  Dave, Helios is in the Reform Coalition, not the Regency.  Just 
>though I'd point that out.

        Yep. And in fact it's not under the Regency directory, it's under
the Reformation directory. Don't know where that brain burp came from ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:08:08 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

At 09:57 am 9/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
>On a related note, does anyone know how copyright law applies to works
>published by defunct companies?  I assume that copyright would still be in
>effect and be retained by the copyright holders (ie. IG).  And hence it
>would not be possible to make a copy of such a map...  But I do not know.

        AFAIK, all rights to GDW Traveller material reverted to Marc Miller?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:08:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367

At 06:17 pm 9/2/96 BST-1, you wrote:
>Check out Denizen's SF range. Well-proportioned, lots of detail, and 
>there are even some wearing Zho Combat Armour...

        I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
"tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
done you want to start over?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 22:08:55 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

At 11:19 am 9/2/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait till 
>>December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the ones from 
>>T:TNE, but I would like to have one from Classic Traveller period. Maybe 
>>IG could a early example to their web page (hint hint).
>
>Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
>would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
>this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
>It can be folded any way you want and doesn't tear or rip as easy as paper.
>I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.

        Even if you don't make a cloth map, please sell unfolded maps,
rolled in tubes, for those of us who'd like something without all the
creases. And if anybody knows where I can get a set of 3/4" hex maps rolled
that fit together for BL, let me know!

>Secondly, will there we a spot on IG's web page for fans to give you created
>material.  IG could become a spot for not only 'official' material as well
>as fan-made :)

        There's plenty of places out there for "fan" material ... check out
the "elsewhere" list on IG's page. I'd rather they spent their time creating
MORE!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:29:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

25mm is approx. 1/64th scale (S guage for you model railroaders!). Of
course, most 25s are nearer 30mm, which runs up around 1/53rd scale (close
enough to 1/48th scale for many folk), so you will likely notice a bit (ha!)
of a difference between your <25s> and, say, your Airfix or ESCI 1/72 scale
troops... - Bill

At 02:11 PM 9/2/96 EST, you wrote:
> 
>> >Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
>> >minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
>> >so desire.  
>> 
>> Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
>> use 20mm scale.
>> 
>> So you have a choice: 5mm too large, or 5mm too small.  Standard army sizes
>> :-)
> 
>Wow.  Blink.  25mm is no where *near* 1:72 to my eye.  Shows how
>crappy 25mm minis are (they look bigger).  15mm looks about right I
>bet because they are also all crappy proportion wise (almost all
>minis are over sculpted is the lesson here).
>
>-Merrick
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:32:52 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #372

On  2 Sep 96 at 18:14, John Macpherson spewed:

>  I'd actually rather not see Imperial history just be a rehash of
> Roman history.  Similar forces may be at work, but the hi-tech and
> sophisticated Sylean Federation should be more than the Roman
> Republic in space.
> 
> > The business community above
> > all things wanted order, protection, and a frontier to exploit. 
> > Look at the non-Viliani megacorps existing at that time: GSbAG
> > (starships), LSP (mining), and Tukera (shipping).  They would have
> > all have been interested in a rapidly expanding frontier and the
> > construction or protection of the Imperial navy.  Judging from the
> > fact that LSP colonized Mora in 60, the corporations probably led
> > Imperial expansion with the Imperium itself struggling to keep up.
> 
>  I agree with this and think that this should play a large part in
> the early empire.  Rather than the Roman model, perhaps we should
> look more to the colonial expansions of the Dutch, British, and
> Americans during the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Here we see
> commercial interests leading political and military interests.  
>  The problems confronting the Sylean Federation may have had to do
> with the rapid expansion of the megacorps into non-Federation space
> where they were unregulated and engaged in all kinds of less than
> honorable activities.  The megacorps supported Cleon initially
> because they believed he was a good businessman like themselves, but
> he used the power of the Imperium to expand Sylea's sphere of
> control and curb the megacorps' worst abuses.  This would have given
> an impetus for the 'corps to move even further out, with the Navy
> not far behind.  Thus, a mechinism for the rapid expansion of the
> empire is in place.
> 
Bingo, the Imperium is and was a trade federation.  Hence the 
laissez-faire attitude about internal politics of member worlds, and 
hence the obsession with protecting trade, even at the possible cost 
of personal freedom...

Well stated...  But I'd be just as disappointed if the 3rd Imperium 
is Pax Brittanica in space, as well...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:32:52 -0800
Subject: Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!

On  2 Sep 96 at 19:39, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> Stu, it looks like the 0 IE nobles' marketing people have completely
> brainwashed you.  The nobles of 0 IE became nobles by holding on to
> 
> That's not to say that nobles are stupid -- to the contrary.  If
> their interests and the Imperium's coincide, they'll certainly
> support the Imperium.  It's in their interests to appear to have the
> people's good in mind, so they appear to act appropriately.  It's in
> their best interests to hide or deny evidence of past violence and
> theft, so they do.  

Obviously, there are going to be corrupt nobles.  Human beings, by 
their very nature are going to be vain, greedy, arrogant, 
megalomaniacal, etc...  On the other hand, not all actions by the 
nobility are going to be openly cynical...or cynical in any way...  

Many of the ruling class in Europe thought they were doing a service 
when they subjugated the primitive peoples of Asia, Africa, and the 
Americas...  To some, indeed most people, it was about money...  To others, 
it was about a higher purpose...  And to somebody who'd lived through 
1800 years of the middle ages...in a world without the resources and 
advantages of Terran prime world, life under the most corrupt of 
nobles would be better, if trade is restored, if your family has hope 
of someday getting off of that backwater world, etc.  

This is the gist of what I'm getting at...  In the early years of the
Imperium, when the boundaries are going to be expanding at a rapid
rate, there is no reason for a noble to focus inward...when he can
build his power base by grabbing the system 2 parsecs over that's just
getting out of the long night.

If all in your game is dirt, grit, and corruption, its going to be a depressing 
game...  It shouldn't all be dirt, grit and corruption in 0 I.E.  Some of it will be, 
most certainly not all of it...  There are do gooders in this world.  
There are even do gooders who gain political and economic power...  
There just aren't tons of them...

But when they can sate their desires on building power in new 
territory, why go after the throne itself...

Now later, when the borders have stabilized, and there are no more 
worlds to conquer...then it becomes a lot dicier proposition...can 
you say civil war, and right of assassination?  I knew you could...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #375
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 3 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 376

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         2. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         3. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         4. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
         5. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         6. Re: Traveller programs
         7. Re: Response to Ken Whitman
         8. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         9. Questions for anyone who knows...
        10. Re: Imperial Jarheads
        11. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        12. Re: IRC and Time Zones
        13. Re: Marine Officers
        14. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        15. Vegans: was  RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
        16. History of the Galaxy
        17. Traveller on IRC
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367
        19. T4 stuff I would like to see
        20. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
        21. Inaugural Periodic FAQ Posting (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:35:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On  2 Sep 96 at 15:47, Erwin Fritz spewed:

> Am I wrong?  
> -- 

Nope, you're right on...
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:45:13 PST
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

In mail you write:

>>Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
>>minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
>>so desire.  
>
> Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
> use 20mm scale.

Huh? Where did you get *that* idea? 25mm figures are 25mm:6 feet. Or
roughly 1 inch:6 feet. That's 1:72.

20mm is about 1:90 scale. 

And 15 is 1:120 scale.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:05:46 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> The Hindenburg also was not in deep space at the time of its immolation.
>
> Just an observation, but I think the scenario would be *much* more
> dangerous in space on a starship.

Nah. The hatches close and the automatic system vents the compartment
to vacuum. 

And as I pointed out, the flammability range of hydrogen, while large,
isn't *that* large. Too much or too little and I don't care *how* many
sparks there are, it won't ignite. 

And hydrogen is second only to helium for heat conductivity. It
conducts heat like mad. One of the problems in deep sea habitats, which
use heliox, and in the deeper ones, use hydrogen/oxygen as the
breathing mixture, is that you have to crack the temperature *way* up
to keep folks from getting hypothermia. The gases just *suck* the heat
out of you. 

So, give anything approaching intelligent design, the fire hazard is
not as bad as folks are making it out to be. One hazard that *hasn't*
been mentioned is the danger of many cryogenic gases (LH2, LN2, LHe)
causing the accumulation of liquid *oxygen* if they are exposed to air.
Being so cold, they tend to liquify the air even faster than they
evaporate. And both liquid air and LOX are fire hazards because they
are such strong oxidizers.

Come to think of it, am LH2 leak would trigger the hull breach alarms,
simply because it'd cause such a *drop* in air pressure as the air in
contact with it liquefied. The hydrogen evaporated in the process
wouldn't keep up. Especially if the LH2 was "sprayed" into the
compartment. 

So you'd have the alarms trigger, and regardless of whether they
thought it was a hull breach, a hydrogen leak, or a fire they'd do the
same thing. Seal off the hatches and air intakes/outlets, then since
anyone in the compartment who hadn't gotten to emergency gear is "dead"
already, activate the "vent to space" system.

Then, if sensors indicated a fuel leak, they'd shut off the fuel feed.

Anyone not flash frozen is in danger of passing out from the pressure
drop. If they can get to the nearest emergency locker, they can grab an
oxygen supply for the emergency vacuum suit" that is part of standard
gear for working in engineering spaces (basicly, you wear a "skin suit"
under the coverall, and it has a "hood" that unrolls into a *flimsy*
helmet, and you have gloves on the belt).

If they aren't wearing the suit, or don't react in time, too bad.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:54:28 PST
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

In mail you write:

> Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
> would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
> this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
> It can be folded any way you want and doesn't tear or rip as easy as paper.
> I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.

Cloth is a bitch to handle. On the other hand, while it *does* take
some special handling at the printing plant, Tyvek might work rather
nicely. It's chemical resistant, *very* hard to tear, and I don't think
it'll crease well either. The chemical resistance (and general
"slickness") is why it's hard to print on. But if you get an ink
that'll stick, you don't need to worry about players spilling stuff on
it. Just make them take it outside and hose it off!

It'd also be a nice touch having the map printed on something that's
close to what the Imperium is likely to print things on. :-)

For a *real* nice touch, try and format the map (labels, styling, etc)
like a USGS or the like map, only have it be printed by the Imperial
Interstellar Scout Service...

Check USGS maps, both land ones and naval charts to get the styling
and "flavor" right. For one thing, the background may well *not* be
black. It takes a lot of ink to do that. And gloss is right out!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:14:25 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

> >>Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
> >>minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
> >>so desire.  
> >
> > Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
> > use 20mm scale.
> 
> Huh? Where did you get *that* idea? 25mm figures are 25mm:6 feet. Or
> roughly 1 inch:6 feet. That's 1:72.
> 
> 20mm is about 1:90 scale. 
> 
> And 15 is 1:120 scale.

Yikes, you're right.  I always forget the stupid Xmm scales.  In
that case 25mm is well and truely crap.  I have plenty of 1:72
models, and the figures are the same height as most 15mm figs I've
seen.  25mm figs are much closer to 1:48.  If they *claim* to be
25mm, but most human figures are taller than 6ft to scale, they
aren't 25mm.

That's a lot of the problem (aside from people that can't sculpt)
right there.  If I made a 1:72 warplane model that was 25%+ off
scale wise modelers would notice.

So, I am for 1:72 scale figures.  If the lead ones don't look like
the ones in model kits, they ain't 1:72 :-P

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 00:12:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller programs

On 09/02/96 at 10:11 PM,  Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net> said:

>> I think it's likely
>> to become the BASIC of the 90's.

> That's to bad, I had hoped it would be a halfway decent language..... ;)

Ho!  Ho!  I realize BASIC has a bad reputation, but you *can* write well
structured and "correct" code with it...if you try really hard. I picked
BASIC for the comparison because it is also usually interpreted rather than
compiled.  <g> Personally, I prefer Pascal but that's another story.

Here's what I hope Java will give us.  A single source code (or pcoded
object) file that can run on a large number of platforms: Mac, Windows,
*nix, OS2, AS400, etc.  It would be *nice* if it was also a good language
with plenty of RAD tools. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:43:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Response to Ken Whitman

Allen Shock wrote:
> 
> >From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com (Matt Machtan)
> >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:09:19 -0500
> >Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #369
> 
> >The reason I like this mailing list is that you guys are very inventive.
> >IG only write rules as guidlines and you guys have to figure out how to
> >play them.  However, once in a blue moon I try to stear you guys in a
> >direction when things go off a stray.
>    You mean we get off topic now and then?! Nahhhh.....
> 

I've got a sneaking feeling that just _maybe_ he means we go in
directions they didn't intend.

Wait.. no surely _that_ couldn't be the case!

;)

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:49:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

Mystic Musk Ox wrote:
> 
> One thought that just occurred to me re characteristics vs skill
> rules, would be to say that the skill level puts a limit on how much
> of the characteristic can be used, say x3, thus:
> 
> skill   max attribute   total max
> level   usable          asset
> 1       3               4
> 2       6               8
> 3       9               12
> 4       12              16
> ...
> 

Interesting concept, but it is a bit drastic.  Maybe if the max
applicable attribute was (7 + skill ) or some such...

 skill   max attribute   total max
 level   usable          asset
 1       8                 9
 2       9                11
 3       10 (A)           13
 4       11 (B)           15
 ...
 8+	 15 (F)		  23+

Who knows?

But what about attribute division for multiple actions?

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 02:15:56 -0400
Subject: Questions for anyone who knows...

1.) My friend Dave told me he found a web page where you could build Classic
Traveller ships right in the web page. Does anyone know where this is?

2.) Any announcements about immediate plans by DGP or other licensees as to
what they'll be producing?

Some of this may have been discussed before. I was off-line for awhile.

Allen


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:11:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

Peter L. Berghold wrote:
> 
> As a former US Navy sailor let me say this about my Marine bretheren.  Yes,
> I said bretheren as they are also part of the Department of the Navy.
> 
> I cannot in good concience disparage the US Marines.  They are very good at
> what they do and they perform functions that no other branch of the US (or
> any other) military can perform.  They provide our country with a wide
> variety of services and should be recognised for this contribution.
> 
> After all...  they have been guarding our US Navy gates for almost 300 years
> and they have not lost one yet! :) :) {ducking real quick!}

As another USN vet, I'd like to point out that the Marines also have
this charming habit of going ashore, living in foxholes, eating cold
ratiions, and battling with various lower life forms while we eat hot
food, sleep in clean bunks, and lob high explosives over (hopefully)
their heads.

Believe me, we do appreciate not having to do the things those lads do!

	Matt McL

(of course, I probably shouldn't mention the time I had to pick the lock
on a pair of Fredericks of Hollywood handcuffs that one of the young
Marine gate guards had managed to lock himself up with.  ;-) )

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:27:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
[snippage]

> >Yup, especially seeing as the only oxygen supply for hundreds of
> >thousands of miles is both fueling the fire, and being breathed by
> >the crew...
> 
> On the other hand, ships are designed with a lot of fire-fighting
> capabilities built in, for just that reason.  Air-tight bulkheads would slow
> things down a lot.

Plus such things as automatic isolation and evacuation of the
compartment if necessary to save the ship.  Yeah, it's rough on the
engineers, but 'you knew the job was dangerous...'. Recall those WWII
sub movies where the guys are locked in the flooding engine room as the
boat settles to the bottom.  Always gives me the willies. :-[

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:28:59 -0500
Subject: Re: IRC and Time Zones

Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
> 
> What, you're not going to get into the Daylight savings time issue?
> Then Denver and Phoenix aren't the same time zone :-)  We're a little
> saner in Arizona.  We don't feel the need to rearrange our lives by
> an hour twice a year :-)
> 

My wife's from Tucson.  I understand this is, like, sort of a religious
thing out there ...

	:) Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:32:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
[snippage]
>         Given the earlier comment that Trav Military resembles US military
> organization, any of these options would work. It's not unheard of for an
> officer candidate in one branch to actually receive a commission in another.
> Every year, a few Naval Academy graduates choose an Air Force commission, etc.

Yes, but most of that info is year 1000+, right?  I like the idea of the
Imp. Marines having a tradition of officers from the ranks (or nobles
_through_ the ranks).  Nothing says we have to mirror US military
structure.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:42:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Come to think of it, am LH2 leak would trigger the hull breach alarms,
> simply because it'd cause such a *drop* in air pressure as the air in
> contact with it liquefied. The hydrogen evaporated in the process
> wouldn't keep up. Especially if the LH2 was "sprayed" into the
> compartment.
> 
> So you'd have the alarms trigger, and regardless of whether they
> thought it was a hull breach, a hydrogen leak, or a fire they'd do the
> same thing. Seal off the hatches and air intakes/outlets, then since
> anyone in the compartment who hadn't gotten to emergency gear is "dead"
> already, activate the "vent to space" system.
> 
> Then, if sensors indicated a fuel leak, they'd shut off the fuel feed.
> 
> Anyone not flash frozen is in danger of passing out from the pressure
> drop. If they can get to the nearest emergency locker, they can grab an
> oxygen supply for the emergency vacuum suit" that is part of standard
> gear for working in engineering spaces (basicly, you wear a "skin suit"
> under the coverall, and it has a "hood" that unrolls into a *flimsy*
> helmet, and you have gloves on the belt).
> 
> If they aren't wearing the suit, or don't react in time, too bad.
> 

Nice analysis!

One thing I thought of was a 'panic locker', a small booth you can dive
into and seal behind you when the compartment evac/isolation alarms go
off.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 01:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vegans: was  RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

Hmm, info on Vegans, cool.  While I can't stand the virus era I think
Vegans are great.  Does this issue have data on Vegan culture and similar
info?  If I hate the virus era with a passion, but really like Vegans is
this issue worth buying?  Also, does the issue contain Vegan stats? 

I've been assuming: [CT/MT/T4 stats]

Str:  1D6+2
End   1D6+4
Dex   2D6+2
Int   2D6 
Edu   2D6+1
Soc   2D6

How close am I?  Other info would also be great (psionic potential, aging...)

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


PS:  I agree, with the Vegans lifespan *very* little (if any) knowledge
would be lost in the the 75-80 years of the collapse.  Think of it like a
25 year hiatus for human culture, every middle aged person would have been
fully adult at the time of the collapse, and would have had the benefit of
high tech education...  I doubt recovery would take very long once the
virus itself died down, and the vampire fleets stopped attacking. 


------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:16:40 +0100
Subject: History of the Galaxy

Hi All,

As a Traveller returnee (if there's such a word), I am well and truely
lost in the current discussions on the history/origins of the Third
Imperium.

When I last played Traveller (CT), as a young lad our group had no
concept of history or the cannonical traveller galaxy (back then Star
Wars was fresh on the scene and as an 11 year old boy I loved it).  Our
galaxy was full of storm troopers and tie fighters.  Plus this tall evil
dude all in black kept cropping up in the camapign, if I remember right
he had a bit of a bad breathing problem too....  I digress...

Is there anywhere I can go to get a timeline and some background on all
this history I keep hearing about?  The Sylean Federation, the
Rebellion, the Virus, Cleon, Norris (two people I've heard mentioned who
I guess are important)?

Yours, frustrated and still waiting for my hardbook T4 to be shipped to
the UK,

Pete Blake.

------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:49:25 +0000
Subject: Traveller on IRC

I am on IRC most every night from 8pm to midnight CST
I am on the Undernet however.

I can be found on #callahans and or #traveller, as Shadowcat

to get to the undernet just find a working server
such as
atlanta.ga.us.undernet.org
all servers use the city.state.us.undernet.org format

here are several to try
stlouis.mo
chicago.il
monticello.ar
lowell.ma
austin.tx
sandiego.ca
saltlake.ut
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:08:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367

On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
> "tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
> way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
> done you want to start over?

I believe it was the Miniatures Faq that your page points to which said 
that Pine Sol is the best for this.  Put some pine-sol in a container - 
fill it full enough to cover the figure - then put the figure in it.  
Leave it there for 24 hours.  Then, use a toothbrush to remove the paint, 
and put it back in there for another 24.  Use a toothbrush again.
It may be darker in color after this process.  If so, just scrub it real 
good with a toothbrush and some dish- or hand-soap.

I haven't tried it, but IIRC that is what the miniatures FAQ said was the 
process.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:36:39 -0400
Subject: T4 stuff I would like to see

>I think IG has done a great job with T4 so far. There are a couple things 
>I would like to see released or posted in the future.

>Any other ideas,

I'd like to see a drawing of what the various alien races look like.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:36:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

>On 09/02/96 at 03:49 PM,  mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox) said:
>
>>One thought that just occurred to me re characteristics vs skill rules,
>>would be to say that the skill level puts a limit on how much of the
>>characteristic can be used, say x3, thus:

>Interesting.  I think you're right about the asset being too low at low
>skill levels.  I'm *not* going to do another analysis of it though, but I'd
>like to see it if somebody else does. <g>
>
>I also thought about using the skill level as a multiplier on
>attribute. You get some *big* numbers that way. <g>  Too big!

Have we considered doing something really simple?  Allow the GM to make an
arbitrary decision on accomplishing certain tasks.  No matter how naturally
talented you might be:

* you MUST have Medical 4 before you can do brain surgery.
* you MUST have Computer 3 before you can break this security code.
* you MUST have Forgery 5 before you can re-create this document.

etc.  No messy charts or division.  Just a simple requirement.

 James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
 jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.


------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 96 22:34:24 
Subject: Inaugural Periodic FAQ Posting (LONG)

  Well, here is a limited excerpt of the Traveller Mailing List Frequently
Asked Questions (FAQ) document. The full version is available from
http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html. This is the first time I
have posted this. It could become a monthly posting, depending on people's
responses. I thought it was becoming necessary due to the amount
of traffic, including quotes and requests to unsubscribe.

  If you have any comments on how this could be improved, ie leave this out,
put that in etc, I would be most interested in hearing from you.

Enjoy,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd




                          TRAVELLER MAILING LIST FAQ

   Last Updated: 3 September, 1996
     _________________________________________________________________

   This document seeks to give the new subscriber information about the
   lists, how to use them, and also about what else the Internet holds
   for the avid Traveller fan.

    1. What is Traveller?
    2. All About The Traveller Mailing Lists (Updated)
         1. How Do I Subscribe?
         2. How Do I Unsubscribe?
         3. How Do I use the List Processor?
    3. What are the etiquette rules for the lists? (Updated)
    4. What subjects have been 'Done To Death' already on the TML
         1. Effects of rocks on Planets
         2. Was this Virus thing such a good idea?
         3. SDBs and the Defence of Gas Giants
         4. What is a Feudal Technocracy?
         5. Jump Torpedoes - Canon or Otherwise?
         6. Crew Structure on TNE Starships (separate file)
    5. What erratas are available?
    6. What other Resources are there for Traveller on the Internet?
       (Resources.html)
    7. What did other people think of product X? (reviews.html)
    8. What products were produced for TNE? (Products.html)
    9. What products were produced for CT? (Products-CT.html)

     _________________________________________________________________

2. All About The Traveller Mailing Lists

   There are two Traveller Mailing lists, these are TML and XTML. Both of
   these lists exist as a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange
   ideas and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller System, and its
   universe.

   The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to discussions on all aspects
   of Traveller. This includes Marc Miller's Traveller, Traveller: The
   New Era, Mega Traveller and Classic Traveller. This also includes the
   background.

   The Xboat Traveller Mailing List (XTML) is for discussions relating to
   Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller and the Traveller universe dating
   prior to the Rebellion.

  2.2. How Do I Unsubscribe?

   To leave the TML, send a message to majordomo@MPGN.COM and in the body
   put the lines:

   unsubscribe traveller
   unsubscribe traveller-digest

   This will ensure that you are no longer subscribed to either real time
   or digest mode.
   To leave the XTML, the body of the message should be

   unsubscribe xboat
   unsubscribe xboat-digest
     _________________________________________________________________

3. What are the etiquette rules for the lists?

   Here are a few guidelines for posting your thoughts to the TML. Please
   note that they are only guidelines. They are intended to make
   everybody's life easier by keeping the noise level down and keeping
   the content high.
     * All messages should have a meaningful title. Please don't use "Re:
       Traveller-digest V1996 #2" or anything similar.
     * Any message which is over about 150 lines should be labelled as
       LONG in the title. This gives a warning to those running terminal
       sessions over slow links.
     * If you have a very long message that is not relevant to everybody,
       please consider making it available on an FTP or WWW site instead.
       Then announce it's existance on the list. A good example of
       material suitable for this is program listings and scripts.
     * Flame wars should be quickly extinguished or moved to personal
       email addresses.
     * When quoting, please follow these guidelines:
          + Please quote the minimum amount possible to show what you are
            responding to. Remember, everybody has already read the
            original message, they just need to remember it! :-)
          + Please don't paste in 5 generations of replies on a
            particular topic, or an entire 150 line message. Excerpts
            work best.
          + Don't quote signatures.
          + Don't quote a message just to say "me too"
     * Signatures should be limited to around 4 lines please.
     _________________________________________________________________

James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #376
**********************************

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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 3 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 377

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367
         3. Re: IRC and Time Zones
         4. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
         5. Re: Freeze dried Traveller programs
         6. T4: Cleon as Augustus
         7. Re: Characteristics vs. Skills
         8. Hanging on the Hull
         9. Re: Imperial Jarheads
        10. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
        11. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see
        12. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        13. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        14. T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:03:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, James Garriss wrote:
> 
> Have we considered doing something really simple?  Allow the GM to make an
> arbitrary decision on accomplishing certain tasks.  No matter how naturally
> talented you might be:
> 
> * you MUST have Medical 4 before you can do brain surgery.
> * you MUST have Computer 3 before you can break this security code.
> * you MUST have Forgery 5 before you can re-create this document.
> 
> etc.  No messy charts or division.  Just a simple requirement.

What??? A referee actually making a decision without massive tables and
charts or confusing equations??? What a NOVEL idea! <grin>




> 
>  James Garriss                    |   Cats:   
>  jpg@langley.mitre.org            |   proof that not everything 
>  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss   |   in nature has a function.
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:19:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #367

The best way that I know to remove paint is to soak the figure in pure pine-sol for a few days
and then take a tooth-brush to it. After this, wash in hot water and you should have a "new"
miniature. I've used on stuff freshly done and on stuff that was done while I was learning
(I still can't believe I used good miniatures to *learn* on).

Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris


Homebrew - When it's a hobby, its not a problem!



> 
> At 06:17 pm 9/2/96 BST-1, you wrote:
> >Check out Denizen's SF range. Well-proportioned, lots of detail, and 
> >there are even some wearing Zho Combat Armour...
> 
>         I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
> "tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
> way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
> done you want to start over?
> --________________________________________________________________
>    Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
>    goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:28:06 -0800
Subject: Re: IRC and Time Zones

On  3 Sep 96 at 1:28, Matt McLaughlin spewed:

> My wife's from Tucson.  I understand this is, like, sort of a
> religious thing out there ...
> 

Naw not really.  It's just that the sun is up until about 8-830 PM in 
the summer anyways in Southern AZ...

If you add on another hour, it'd still be sunny when curfew hit... 
:-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:36:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

   Nice thing about TML--you have a problem with an author's work, he can
explain it
to you in person....

>From TML #371, Daniel Poulin writes:

>I have just finished reading #10 of Traveller Chronicle.  While I am
impressed by 
>the overall quality of the information on the Solomani Rim, I can't help but
wonder
>the treatment of Vegans.  For those of you who haven't read the magazine,
the
>author treats the Vegans like humans, in that they haven't recuperated from
Virus.

   Thanks.  It is assumed that they used Imperial computer standards just
like
everyone else (with certain interface adaptations).  This would also be true
of other
alien races in the Imperium.  The Vegans' main problem is that they had very
high
tech levels across the board--this only increased the effects of the
Collapse.  If you
have collapsed a subsector in New Era, you soon realize that being TL 14-15
only
means that you get more D6 thrown against you, and the more likely you are to
end
up back in the Stone Age.

>The problem that I have with this question is that, even though I never saw
their
>stats (I never found the article concerning them), I was told by a friend of
mine (who
>is on the list and who has an unnatural attraction to Vegans) that they can
live to 
>be 250 years old.

   The actual number is more like 200.  A lengthy article on the Vegans will
appear
in TTC#11, along with a simple character generation sequence for your friend.

>While humans can forget knowledge in a few generations, the length of time
that the
>'night' lasted means that some of the Vegans (if not a lot!) who are alive
today would
>have been alive during the Collapse.  Assuming they kept  the knowledge they
>learned in schools (there is no reason to doubt it), they  should have been
able to
>recuperate faster than humans.

   Your assumption is that enough of the technically-oriented individuals
from the
various tuhuir survived, and that they have enough equipment to work with.
 Also,
you're assuming that they were able to come up with a solution to the Virus
problem
beyond blowing up the machine or disallowing certain forms of input which
would
prevent further infections.  Big assumptions.

>Furthermore, they  used to live in a politically stable and united society.
 Since a lot
>of the  Vegans alive in 1200+ were alive at the time of the collapse, they
should still
>have the memory of having only one government for them all, achieving unity 
>shouldn't be a problem.

   There are reasons why cultures are stable.  One is that they are naturally
harmonious.  The other is that some internal or external force keeps the
society
harmonious.  Removing that force would cause the society to fall apart.

>From TML #373, Stuart L. Dollar writes:

>Good point.  Just about any adult Vegan would be a remnant...
>Heck in 1200, many of them would remember the Solomani Rim War...

   Gee, so creatures that live for 200 years don't breed?  That might explain
certain
things if you take an Augustine view of things....

   Of course there would be Vegans alive who would remember the First
Solomani
Rim War.  The question is, are they in a position in 1202 of doing anything
with that
knowledge?

>From #374, Derek Stanley writes:

>As good a supplement as it is, and there's some great stuff in there.   I've
chosen to
>ignore both pocket empires presented in TC10.

   Too bad, because you're going to miss out on some good essays about them,
and
the detailed rationale (storyline-wise) as to why they end up existing.  In
my not-so-
humble-opinion, the storyline I have created is less bleak, less of many of
the things
non-TNE fans hated most about the TNE storyline than anything published by
GDW.

>The Vegan's  should have their own pocket empire as should the Solomani
(Terran 
>region) I don't have a problem with a Dingir PE too.  The only problem is
 these 
>things are huge, 20+ stars each.

   There are two reason the Vegans don't have a pocket empire in 1202: the
story
reason and the creative one.  The story reason I'd rather not dicuss at the
moment,
but the creative reason has to do with discussions I had with Dave Nilsen a
couple
of years or so ago.  Originally, I had several development plans in mind for
the
Solomani Rim.  One involved the possibility of four pocket empires in the
Rim: the
Easter Concord, the Vegan Polity, the Dingir League, and the Terran Republic.
Another involved three: the Vegans, the Dingirans, and the Terrans.  The
final one
involved two pocket empires, the Dingirans and the Terrans.  After my
discussions
with Dave, I decided to proceed with development of the final option, with
the Vegans
of Muan Gwi still having starflight technology, but no pocket empire.

>This throws the whole balance of  power in TNE out the window.

   Wrong.  While the Dingir League and the Terran Republic are both more
powerful
than the RC, they do not have powerful friends (the Hivers) that they can
call upon.
They also have another *big* problem:  Cymbeline is in the same sector, and
the
Vampire Highway seperates the Dingirans and the Terrans from the RC.  It
should
also be apparent that the Dingir League and the Terran Republic don't like
each other
very much.  Both powers therefore have enough to worry about (each other)
without
concerning themselves with some Hiver client states that have popped up in
the Old
Expanses.

>The two big players are supposed to be the  RC and the Regency, suddenly
there's
>4 big players two of whom are more  interested in duking it out with each
other than
>they are with returning  the light of civilization to the galaxy.

   I would not call the RC a "big player", unless you count their big money
backers
(the Hivers) into the equation.  As for the Terrans and the Dingirans, they
really aren't
big players either.  They may be big players in the Solomani Rim, but they do
not
have the resources or the logistical capabilities to create anything
resembling the
vast empire that the Regency is capable of creating.  Even if they combined
their
resources and tried, the result would be a false dawn over a region of about
four
sectors or so that would collapse in on itself in short order.  Just because
you can
project power doesn't mean that you can sustain it, or that it is wise to do
so.
Time and again people within the RC question the wisdom of trying to operate
over
the entirety of the Diaspora Sector, and every so often the RC gets burned
(Vampire
ship raids on virtually defenseless RC worlds, the threat of a war with the
Empire of
Solee they may not win, and of course conflict with the Guild) to prove their
point.

>Don't get me wrong I like the ideas behind both pocket empires, they're
 just too big.

   Check the population stats of the worlds in the Terran Republic.  You'll
find that
many of the worlds they claim are uninhabited.  Same goes for the Dingir
League.
Of the worlds that are inhabited, most all of them have rather low tech
levels (below
that capable of constructing starships).  While they may seem vast in
comparison
to other "pocket empires", both the Terran Republic and the Dingir League
really
aren't as big or as powerful as they would first appear.

Regards,

Harold D. Hale



------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:08:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Freeze dried Traveller programs

> I don't suppose you did them with a cross-platform tool?  Something that
> creates source generic enough to port over to the more common
> DOS/Win/OS2/*nix systems?
> 
> Pretty soon Mac, OS/2, Windows and *nix systems will all be able to run the
> same Java programs from the desktop and over the net.  I think it's likely
> to become the BASIC of the 90's.  
> 
> Personally, I *like* Pascal better (I use Sybil and Delphi much more than
> C++ <g>) than the C like Java, but I really think Java is the wave of the
> future.

*sigh*... I think this is a good idea too, _but_...

I teach Java, C++ etc and as much as Java is pretty
good, there's still a lot missing from it. I could come up with
a program that's a million time slicker and that runs faster using
using C++ and MFC, but will only run under Win95. You win some, you 
lose some.

Also, Java is in a state of rapid change... my subsector viewer
workes under Netscape 2, but not under Netscape 3 or IE 3. I haven't
had time to fix it yet.

Anyways, when I find the time (ha!) I will continue improving
my Java subsector viewer. Maybe I will stick a database behind it
or something.

Oh, and as for nasty engineer deaths,

have the fuel line spring a leak. In response, to remove the explosion
hazard, the ship's saftey system does an automatic vacuum purge.
One set of freeze-dried engineers. :)

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 3 Sep 96  9:27:50 MS
Subject: T4: Cleon as Augustus

Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>, responding to Ken Whitman's call 
forideas about Cleon, did say:
- --BEGIN QUOTE--
Dictators rise when participatory governments cannot maintain order.  The
first Emperor was not the greatest soldier of his age, nor the most
respected intellect or talented orator.  He was a supremely ruthless and
gifted politician.  He respected the old institutions and aristocrats,
created a great legal code, reduced corruption, quietly stifled dissent,
and, above all, reestablished order.  The vast majority of the people
supported him, recognizing that they could no longer rule themselves.  The
foundation that the first Emperor established would last for over a thousand
years.

Other than the fact that Cleon renamed the senate, the above could apply to
either Augustus, who I think should be our model, or Cleon.  Cleon was
supported by the lower classes because they were tired of the chaos under
the federation.  The nobles were satisfied by the affirmation of their
titles and their inclusion in the new moot.  The business community above
all things wanted order, protection, and a frontier to exploit.  Look at the
non-Viliani megacorps existing at that time: GSbAG (starships), LSP
(mining), and Tukera (shipping).  They would have all have been interested
in a rapidly expanding frontier and the construction or protection of the
Imperial navy.  Judging from the fact that LSP colonized Mora in 60, the
corporations probably led Imperial expansion with the Imperium itself
struggling to keep up.
- --END QUOTE---

I've been planning on using Augustus as my model for Cleon, but this 
presupposes some events.  Specifically
1.  The Sylean Federation has been expanding, but has enemies that are a 
significant threat; enough so that the Federation sometimes has to play its 
foreign enemies off of each other.  There are also lots of "little players" who 
individually are not a threat, but collectively exert a major impact on 
Federation foreign and military policy.
2.  The Federation is in the midst of a period of massive economic growth; so 
much so that it has created a chaotic economic situation of runaway inflation.
3.  As an outgrowth of 1 and 2, there has been an increasing "centralization" 
of authority in the Federation which has kept the situation under control.  
However, it has also proved to be a system vulnerable to manipulation or 
outright takeover by certain powerful and ambitious individuals.  These efforts 
have thus far been foiled through incompetence, competition from other 
powerfull and ambitious individuals, or by the efforts of more "populist" 
leaders (who are themselves powerful and ambitious).

This is not an attempt to directly map the Roman Empire/Republic onto the Third 
Imperium.  What I am aiming for is creating a similar set of circumstances..  
What this boils down to is Cleon is NOT the first Emperor-like ruler of the 
Third Imperium; he is the one who first acknowledged the situation and 
attempted to codify it.

So what this means is to get a good picture of Cleon's motives and methods you 
need a good backhistory of the Federation.  My backhistory will look like the 
Late Republic (with some very important differences; no Servile Revolts for 
example).  Work is busy, but I may try to write this up this week.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:07:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Characteristics vs. Skills

James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> wrote:
> Have we considered doing something really simple?  Allow the GM to make an
> arbitrary decision on accomplishing certain tasks.  No matter how naturally
> talented you might be:
> 
> * you MUST have Medical 4 before you can do brain surgery.
> * you MUST have Computer 3 before you can break this security code.
> * you MUST have Forgery 5 before you can re-create this document.

This makes perfect sense, I think. There are *some* activities that
require a certain level of expertise no matter how naturally-skilled
you are.

I admit my first reaction to the greater weight put on controlling
attributes was quite negative. I've interviewed candidates that were
fresh out of school with doctorates, and they are usually lacking in
comparison to people with a bachelor's or master's degree and some
experience. Then I realized that the difference in the EDU attribute
would only be 1 or 2.

Of course, this only works if you don't get more than 1 level or so
in a skill for your whole college experience (so as not to double the
impact of the increased EDU). If you wan't to be more realistic, you
should give the "fresh out" a higher level in a very specialized form
of the skill (e.g., to represent a thesis).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:37:59 -0700
Subject: Hanging on the Hull

A. So, undetected, I drifted over to their ship and was able to get a grip.
I was working my way toward the airlock when they jumped!

Questions:

1. Did I live to tell about it?

2. What might I have seen or felt?

B. If DGP's work is cannon then we direct power from the crystals to the
lanth. grid.  What about large thigs attached to the hull that aren't hooked
into the grid. One meter would be just a tiny bit of that extra fuel tank
the PCs lashed on.
Mosaic Tapestry _______________________________________________________________
								      TRAVELLER
			          Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:52:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

Peter L. Berghold wrote:
> 
> As a former US Navy sailor let me say this about my Marine bretheren.  Yes,
> I said bretheren as they are also part of the Department of the Navy.

As a former USN sailor myself, I well remember the friendly rivalry between the various 
branches of the naval service -- _even those aboard the same ship_. Airdales ragged on 
the deck apes. The deck apes give the snipes hell. The snipes snigger at the "p*ck*r 
checkers." 

Of course, everyone in a Navy uniform dissed the Gyrenes. Uncle Sam's Misguided 
Children, we called them . . . the jokes were legendary and not suited for a family 
mailing list. 

> 
> I cannot in good concience disparage the US Marines.  They are very good at
> what they do and they perform functions that no other branch of the US (or
> any other) military can perform.  They provide our country with a wide
> variety of services and should be recognised for this contribution.

While we Navy guys bagged something fierce on the good men of the Corps, we all 
understood that this was all in good fun. Only very new Marines took the ritual dissing 
as anything but good fun -- the one time, back when I was Young And Stupid[tm], that I 
gave some new Marines hell, I had a brawl on my hands (the bruises were interesting). 
With more senior Marines, there was never a case of violence (they could, with their 
experience, take me apart!).

Still, the respect was still there. Navy does stuff the Corps can't; the Corps carries 
out missions the Navy can't. 

> 
> After all...  they have been guarding our US Navy gates for almost 300 years
> and they have not lost one yet! :) :) {ducking real quick!}

Find hard cover . . . FAST!! ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:18:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 

> 
> Executive Orders...  Definitely a Jack Ryan, if I guess correctly...
> Haven't picked it up, but saw it in a bookstore a couple of days ago.

Read EO a couple of weeks ago. Yep, it's a Jack Ryan book. OP-CENTER MUST DIE!! Yep, 
it's LONG, like _Debt of Honor_. Is it good? IMHO, Yes, but TC's done better. Both _The 
Sum of All Fears_ and _DoH_ were better, by the standards Clancy set by his longer Jack 
Ryan books. Of the shorter Jack Ryan books, only _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_ was weak.

For more detailed discussions, check alt.fan.t-clancy.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
> > would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
> > this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
> > It can be folded any way you want and doesn't tear or rip as easy as paper.
> > I'd be willing to pay the extra cost.
>
> Cloth is a bitch to handle. On the other hand, while it *does* take
> some special handling at the printing plant, Tyvek might work rather
> nicely. It's chemical resistant, *very* hard to tear, and I don't think
> it'll crease well either. The chemical resistance (and general
> "slickness") is why it's hard to print on. But if you get an ink
> that'll stick, you don't need to worry about players spilling stuff on
> it. Just make them take it outside and hose it off!

Tyvek isn't all that expensive to print on (family member in the business
as source material---) for a run of about 20000 the price of those
Tyvek jackets you see around is about $40 a pop.  It's gotta be a lot less
for a map (it's flat).

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Matt McLaughlin wrote:

> Rob Prior wrote:
> >
> [snippage]
>
> > >Yup, especially seeing as the only oxygen supply for hundreds of
> > >thousands of miles is both fueling the fire, and being breathed by
> > >the crew...
> >
> > On the other hand, ships are designed with a lot of fire-fighting
> > capabilities built in, for just that reason.  Air-tight bulkheads would slow
> > things down a lot.

Okay, here's a quasi-off-topic question.  Suppose the LH2 flooded
compartment in vented into space, taking (for the purposes of discussion)
say 4 cubic meters of various and asundry liquified gases and spewing them
out of the ship.  What's the plume gonna look like?  Anyone feel like
calculating the rate of expansion?  Will the gas diffuse rapidly enough to
knock the ship off kilter at all?

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Matt McLaughlin wrote:

> > Anyone not flash frozen is in danger of passing out from the pressure
> > drop. If they can get to the nearest emergency locker, they can grab an
> > oxygen supply for the emergency vacuum suit" that is part of standard
> > gear for working in engineering spaces (basicly, you wear a "skin suit"
> > under the coverall, and it has a "hood" that unrolls into a *flimsy*
> > helmet, and you have gloves on the belt).
> >
> > If they aren't wearing the suit, or don't react in time, too bad.
> >
>
> Nice analysis!
>
> One thing I thought of was a 'panic locker', a small booth you can dive
> into and seal behind you when the compartment evac/isolation alarms go
> off.

Also remember the old medical maxim: "You're not dead until you're warm
and dead."  Might it be possible to recover a flash frozen individual?
The only problem would be that the water in one's cells tends to explode
the cell membrane when it freezes, but also consider that most spacers
(accustomed to working in zero-g that is) contain LESS water in their
bodies.   I recall reading that a major problem that the astronauts that
return from the shuttle missions encounter is severe dehydration when they
come back.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:17:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines

Dear Folks -

1.	THE WORLDWIDE SPREAD OF T4

The softcover arrived at _The Games Cupboard_, Canberra, Australia on Monday
26th August. Tim sais this meant it was at the distributors (Jedko Games,
Melbourne??) on the previous Friday.

Is anyone doing a study of this?? (Even offhand?)

2.	CHRIS FOSS

BTW, I thought Chris' art looked familiar. I have a number of E. E. "Doc"
Smith books, comprising snippets of the "Skylark" and "Lensman" series, plus
the *entire* decalogue of the "Family D'Alembert" series (which bears a
striking resembance to Traveller). Chris' artwork is plastered all over the
front covers of these books!! Some of the T4 artwork is similar to these
covers, especially:
	_Children of the Lens_ - Patrol Cruiser?
	_Getaway World_ - similar hoop to the Lab Ship?
	_The Bloodstar Conspiracy_ - it looks like a CT-scout joined up with some
other unfinished-looking triangular hull.

Why do you think the Lab Ship's two looping prongs are unnecessary? You
could still spin the ship to get "gravity" from centrifugal force. This was
always the concept, even with the full CT hoop - the handwaving is that some
experiments require gravity, but grav plates do not foot the bill. Maybe
they would introduce too many variables into the experiment, rendering the
results "tainted"? Maybe the constant fluctuation of the inertial dampers
makes unstable compounds dangerous? Bruce Johnson, can you give us your
opinion on this?

3.	DEEP SPACE CALIBRATION POINTS

Dave Golden said:
>	Otherwise, just accelerate real slow.

This would make the "Battle for Calibration Point Charlie" (_Regency
Sourcebook_ p10, just above the execrable poem) really something to see!!
All these huge warships trying to maneuver around at 10 kph (or whatever).
They would all be sitting ducks - no wonder the battle was slated as memorable.

4.	THE IMPERIUM = ROME

The more I find out, the closer this seems to be... Imperial Rome, when it
conquered new lands, left the local laws and law structures in place
whereever it could. Naturally, there was always the Roman governor at the
top (eg. Pontius Pilate), but the original local rulers were allowed a
limited jurisdiction (eg. Herod, in Galilee). For the most part, local law
prevailed. Certain Roman laws were imposed (eg. If so ordered, you had to
carry a Roman legionnaire's kit). Appeals could be made to the governor, and
offences requiring execution (in local law) had to be brought to the
governor (eg. if crucifixion was considered necessary).

The Trav hook? Local law levels, rules, etc. Remain in place when a planet
joins the Imperium. In fact, the imperium is even more laissez-faire about
this than Rome was.

I'm afraid I don't agree with Joe (yes I know it was tongue-in cheek!): if
the Imperium allows places like Endup (Gulf/Deneb 0436) to exist, it is not
the nicest government to have (SEE _Regency Sourcebook_ p64 for Endup details).

5.	FIGURINES

Bill Rutherford said:
>...Stone Mountain) can be done on a dining room table in 15mm; it requires the
game table in the basement in 25mm.  What think the rest of you? -Bill

You have a BASEMENT?!?

Seriously, I would have preferred to go to 25mm, but no-one stocked the RAFM
miniatures. I found some others that "made do" but never enough. I didn't
want my guys to shoot at *stormtroopers* in Traveller - just lost the
flavour, somehow.

My main reasons for 25mm are:
1.	I'm an old AD&Der (sorry), and I'm used to that scale.
2.	They are (generally) not as crude as the 15mm models.
3.	They are easier to paint details on.
4.	I agree with Douglas Berry: " ...most Traveller combat takes place in
confined spaces..." (looking forward to the adv cbt rules, BTW).

6.	IRON FIST

Argh! You stole my name! (Only kidding, mine is the *Eisern Faust*, an
ex-Ine Givar stealth intruder scout, designed under MT).

And now a general question: how do you make a TNE/QSDS stealth ship? Under
MT, you made the thing Faint and then added EMM Masking to reduce emissions
to Nil. What now?

7.	ASTRO-LORD-HELP-US UNITS

Presumably, Les, you are referring to the apartment blocks built for the
underprivileged by Risbard, Lord Aelphus, of Garda-Vilis? ;-)
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #377
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 3 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 378

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Hanging on the Hull
         2. Removing Paint
         3. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         4. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
         5. Re: A Design question....
         6. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         7. Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         8. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         9. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        10. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        11. Re: IRC and Time Zones
        12. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        13. Thoughts on trade
        14. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        15. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        16. Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:34:29 -0400
Subject: RE: Hanging on the Hull

My gaming group discussed something similiar.  I think the jump field 
is about a meter off the hull.  So technically you could do this.  Now 
the effects on sanity from being outside.  Not to mention unless you 
could get inside your PLSS is gonna run out 2 days max.  Jump last 
7ish.
Not sure what mutating effects the jump grid would have.

- ----------
From: 	Mark Ayers[SMTP:mark@bbic.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, September 03, 1996 3:37 PM
To: 	traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Hanging on the Hull

A. So, undetected, I drifted over to their ship and was able to get a 
grip.
I was working my way toward the airlock when they jumped!

Questions:

1. Did I live to tell about it?

2. What might I have seen or felt?

B. If DGP's work is cannon then we direct power from the crystals to 
the
lanth. grid.  What about large thigs attached to the hull that aren't 
hooked
into the grid. One meter would be just a tiny bit of that extra fuel 
tank
the PCs lashed on.
Mosaic Tapestry 
_______________________________________________________________
								      TRAVELLER
			          Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future




------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 17:00:04 -0400
Subject: Removing Paint

>        I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
>"tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
>way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
>done you want to start over?
>- --________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden     
I've used Nail Polish remover in the past, it seemed to work pretty
well.  It doesn't matter if it is acetone or the other stuff, they both
work fairly well.  
I've only done this a few times, but it worked for me.
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:06:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

>Chris Cox wrote:
>> This didn't happen to the Akron.  Helium, which the Akron used, is just a
>> touch less explosive that Hydrogen.
>> 
> Just a touch?  Then my admittedly limited knowledge of chemistry is worse
>than I thought.  I was  . . .
> [Stuff deleted] . . .
>Am I wrong?  

>Erwin Fritz
>Systems Administrator
>Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
>http://www.glja.com

I apolagize I would seem that my use of sarcasm went complete awry.  I
figurered that eveyone knew that helium wasn't explosive while hydrogen is,
it just didn't occure to me that the sacasm would be missed, Sorry.


Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:25:35 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

Moin Daniel Poulin,

> I have just finished reading #10 of Traveller Chronicle.

	Just a stupid question. From where can I get this #10 ?

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:52:58 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: A Design question....

Moin Susan M. Shock,

>         Say you wanted to have an orbital shipyard capable of constructing
> four or five ships a time of up to 50,000 tons displacement. How big would
> it need to be? What would be the levels of staffing? The place is
> computer-controlled for the most part, and uses robots for a good part of
> the heavy labor.

	Sounds very interesting. I have 2 NPCs who like to visit it ;-)

	The first is coming with a Jayhawk free trader, human crewed
	selling information and small stuff. 2 AI's are on board.

	The other is Muecke coming with a trade fleet from Aslan to
	Promise.

>         Anyone want to take a guess as to what uncompleted epic adventure
> series from TNE I'm working on? :) Any help that could be offered would be
> appreciated, and the finished project will be shared with those who helped.

	Send me a draft, I would like to help.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:02:24 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> Okay, here's a quasi-off-topic question.  Suppose the LH2 flooded
> compartment in vented into space, taking (for the purposes of discussion)
> say 4 cubic meters of various and asundry liquified gases and spewing them
> out of the ship.  What's the plume gonna look like?  Anyone feel like
> calculating the rate of expansion?  Will the gas diffuse rapidly enough to
> knock the ship off kilter at all?

You won't get very much thrust that way. There'll be a *little*, but
since the gases can expand freely, 90% of the vectors cancel. It takes
carefully constructed expansion nozzle to get much thrust out of
expanding gases.

Notice much thrust from that pop-top can? Nope. Expand the same amount
of gas through a properly designed nozzle and you'll be able to *feel*
the push.

As for what it'll look like, there'll be a lot of "ice" crystals as
some of the liquid components get cooled below freezing by the
evaporation/expansion. Most of these won't last long, but between that
and condensation/expansion effects, I'd guess that you'd have a plume
that starts out white with "sparkles" and rapidly becomes transparent. 

Think of the plume from a tea kettle, or from a CO2 extinuisher.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:42:25 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> On the other hand, ships are designed with a lot of fire-fighting
> capabilities built in, for just that reason.  Air-tight bulkheads would slow
> things down a lot.

Actually, a ship in space is pretty much fireproof. Turn off the
gravity and you've just killed the convection currents. Turn off the
ventilators, and there's no way for the combustion products to move
away from the fire, or for oxygen to move towards it. Well, there *is*
diffusion, but that's fairly slow. Then vent the compartment to space,
and the fire is out.

One interesting thing most non-spacers don't realize about "stopping" a
fire by killing the grav plates and ventilators is that you have a
dangerous situation until you *carefully* replace the air, or *rapidly*
vent it to vacuum. All you've done is "suspend" the fire. So unless you
wait a *long* time for the various chemical radicals created by the
partial combustion to diffuse and react, they'll picj right back up
where the left off if you supply gravity or air circulation!

Opening a "burned" compartment and disturbing the air is likely to
result in a brief but intense "flame burst" due to mixing the gases.
Sort of a spacegoing version of a backdraft.

Old hands demonstrate this to newbies by shutting off the ventilators
in a compartment while a candle is burning. Then they kill the grav
plates. The flame goes spherical, then you have a little globe of smoke
sitting there. Wave your hand to create a breeze and it'll start up
again for a moment (wait too long and it'll disperse). Turn on the grav
plates and it'll start burning again. 

(The above is actual, *real* science!) 

It's been suggested that we could produce certain compounds simply by
starting a flame then killing gravity, extracting the radicals from the
"smoke" zone, and then restarting. There are probably easier ways to do
it, but it is a possibility.

Ships on the ground *worry* their captains because of the elevated fire
danger (much like seagoing vessels are at risk in drydock) the regular
fire-fighting gear doesn't work. This may explain why many ships prefer
to dock at a "high port" rather than land. It lets the ship be safe
with much cheaper fire fighting gear.

I'll have to remember to put lots of fire fighting gear in the "berths"
on the ground.

In any case, the above leads to some interesting possibilities. Besides
the dangers of ignorant passengers rushing into compartments that have
"sleeper" fires in them, think of the fun of boarding a derelict. Even
if it is old, it's still possible that there's a fire that's been just
barely holding on and just *waiting* for something to stir up the
atmosphere. Especially if the ship is derelict due to battle damage.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:00:49 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> Plus such things as automatic isolation and evacuation of the
> compartment if necessary to save the ship.  Yeah, it's rough on the
> engineers, but 'you knew the job was dangerous...'. Recall those WWII
> sub movies where the guys are locked in the flooding engine room as the
> boat settles to the bottom.  Always gives me the willies. :-[

Don't worry. Unless they were operating in *very* shallow water the
pressure will crush the hull (and them) long before they can drown.

(Cheerful, ain't I?)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:36:30 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

>> If they aren't wearing the suit, or don't react in time, too bad.
>
> Nice analysis!
>
> One thing I thought of was a 'panic locker', a small booth you can dive
> into and seal behind you when the compartment evac/isolation alarms go
> off.

Possible, but you'd need several, as you never know *which* section of
wall is going to be in the middle of the "problem". And even then,
given Murphy, the only one in reach will require you to run *through*
the LH2 spray!

In any caser, always remember that the answer to "How long do I have to
get to shelter?" is "How long can you hold your breath?" and if there's
a pressure drop, it's much less than that as you don't *dare* hold your
breath (ask any scuba diver what happens to an idiot how holds his
breath during as little as a 20 foot ascent)(1 atm = 30 feet of water)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:47:16 PST
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

In mail you write:

>> Huh? Where did you get *that* idea? 25mm figures are 25mm:6 feet. Or
>> roughly 1 inch:6 feet. That's 1:72.
<snip>
> Yikes, you're right.  I always forget the stupid Xmm scales.  In
> that case 25mm is well and truely crap.  I have plenty of 1:72
> models, and the figures are the same height as most 15mm figs I've
> seen.  25mm figs are much closer to 1:48.  If they *claim* to be
> 25mm, but most human figures are taller than 6ft to scale, they
> aren't 25mm.
>
> That's a lot of the problem (aside from people that can't sculpt)
> right there.  If I made a 1:72 warplane model that was 25%+ off
> scale wise modelers would notice.
>
> So, I am for 1:72 scale figures.  If the lead ones don't look like
> the ones in model kits, they ain't 1:72 :-P

One accidental purchase I made many years ago has been very useful ever
since I got into gaming. I bought an aluminum ruler 2 feet long at an
office supply store, and didn't look at it carefully. I *thought* the
extra scales were metric. They weren't. I'd purchased a "printer's
ruler" normally used for layout work.

What's nice is that one of the scales is "Picas". That is, markings
every sixth of an inch, numbered sequentialy by sixes. So I can lay it
down and read off 1/72 scale feet *directly*. Clear out to 144 feet.
The other scale on that side is 6 & 12 point pica, which is numbered
the same, but has marks twice as often. So that let's ne measure 1/72
in *half* foot increments. 

The other side is just inches (by 1/16ths) and "agate" which is 1/7
inch markings. Never found a use for that one. :-)

But the two pica scales are wonderful. I've had folks want to steal the
ruler when they realized that I could read off scale feet *directly*
with 1 foot or 6 inch resolution. :-)

Sure, you can use one of thos silly architects triangular rulers, but
they are harder to read, fragile (or expensive!), the marks wear off,
and they are less than a foot long. This is two feet long. A nice size.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:18:13 PST
Subject: Re: IRC and Time Zones

In mail you write:

>   The Internet not being an exclusively American thing, some of
>   our readers may not be familiar with the American time zone
>   names.  Thus, this brief.
>
>   Eastern Time (New York and Miami) is five hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 5)
>
>   Central Time (Chicago and Houston) is six hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 6)
>
>   Mountain Time (Denver and Phoenix) is seven hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 7)
>
>   Pacific Time (Seattle and San Diego) is eight hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 8)
>
>   Alaska/Hawaii Time (Nome and Honolulu) is ten hours behind UTC
>   normally. (UTC - 10)

Actually, Alaska (or at least good chunks of it) is UTC-9. 
There's also an Atlantic time zone (Eastern Canada) that is UTC-4, and
Newfoundland (or parts of it) is UTC-3.5.

Here's a table:

Standard Time		Daylight Time
(Nov thru Mar)	UTC	(Apr thru Oct)
- --------------	----	--------------
		-2.5	Newfoundland
                -3	Atlantic
Newfoundland	-3.5
Atlantic	-4	Eastern
Eastern		-5	Central
Central		-6	Mountain
Mountain	-7	Pacific
Pacific		-8	Alaska
Alaska		-9	Hawaii
Hawaii		-10

Standard time starts the last Sunday of October
Daylight time starts the First Sunday of April

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:09:56 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> Also remember the old medical maxim: "You're not dead until you're warm
> and dead."  Might it be possible to recover a flash frozen individual?
> The only problem would be that the water in one's cells tends to explode
> the cell membrane when it freezes, but also consider that most spacers
> (accustomed to working in zero-g that is) contain LESS water in their
> bodies.   I recall reading that a major problem that the astronauts that
> return from the shuttle missions encounter is severe dehydration when they
> come back.

Traveller spacers generally spend little time in zero-g. But on the
other hand, the quicker you get frozen the less damage the ice crystals
do (as they tend to be tinier). So it's a *chance*, but not a big one.

>
> -----
>
>         "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
>   "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
>             uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
>                         --- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein
>
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 19:06:00 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on trade

  Looking over the UWPs for Core that are given in Traveller*, I
  note that none of the worlds listed as inhabited (assumed to
  be the Sylean Federation) are incapable of sustaining life
  with no off planet resources (it may not be pleasant, but it's
  possible - assuming the extended percentages for hydro as used
  in World Builder's Handbook (DGP for MT), i.e., hydro of 0
  means 5% of surface or less may be water.  That means that
  while trade is the lifeblood and defining characteristic of
  the Sylean Federation, I don't see it as requiring the
  traditional image of million-ton (disp.) freighters plying the
  space lanes - at least, not at this point in time.  Certainly,
  a 600-Td freighter won't be big enough for the majority of
  shipping, but I figure they should be a significant fraction,
  with the majority being perhaps corporate 10,000-to-50,000 Td
  freighters in the most well-developed lanes, and the smaller
  ships, down to free traders, handling the less well-developed
  areas, and the frontiers.  The farther away from the mains you
  go, the more ships you will find lower on the displacement
  scale. Thus, the clusters that are just off the mains will see
  mostly 1,000 to 10,000 Td cargo carriers of mixed ownership
  (government, corporate, and local), with 600s and smaller
  (primarily local ownership; some corporate) filling in the
  gaps locally. The frontiers will see primarily the 600s, with
  the Free Traders filling in the gaps. Most areas in the Deeps
  (parsecs outside the borders of the Federation, but still
  within reasonable commercial distance) will see the rare 600
  going to a developing market or trade hub, but will see almost
  universally the "tramp" Free Trader.

  (1) Question for discussion:  Are these reasonable assumptions?
  How long has the Sylean Federation been in existence, and is
  this long enough to have developed economical million-ton
  (disp) per shipment trade?

  Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
  commerce - commodity trade, where large quantities of low-cost
  and/or consumable/disposable goods are shipped because it's
  cheaper than producing locally (example: machine parts on a
  world that doesn't have accessible ores); goods trade (can't
  think of a better name), where moderate quantities are shipped
  as an alternative to local production, because of perceived
  "cachet" or better quality (example: ground cars to a planet
  with a slightly lower TL); and luxury trade, where small
  quantities commanding high prices are shipped, because limited
  quantities of the good are available, or there is limited
  source, or anything else that might make something command a
  high price (example: garments made of the fur of an animal
  that only lives in one system in the subsector - or the fur
  itself, to be made into garments at destination).

  (2) Question for discussion:  Am I talking through my hat here,
  or is this reasonable?  What kinds of goods would you put in
  each category?

  Broadly speaking, I view the basic trade values in Traveller
  as referring to the goods trade; commodity trade will command
  lower prices at both ends; luxury trade will command higher
  prices at both ends.

  (3) Question for discussion:  Is this reasonable?  What should
  the base values be?  Should there be a price modifier on goods
  that require special handling (toxic, radioactive, fragile,
  etc.) or special environments (live animals, etc.)?

  (4) Question for discussion:  What else should affect the
  price of goods, at either end?

  I'm posting this to both the TML and the GDW-beta lists
  because I want as many people as possible to think about this;
  I think that discussion is better carried out on the GDW-beta
  list.  If Rob wants to allow it on the TML, I'm willing - I
  monitor both lists (and the XTML as well).

  *Note for those who haven't figured it out already from my
  past posts: In spite of the fact that it's different from the
  "standard" on these lists, I use the following long forms and
  abbreviations: Traveller (T) refers to the Imperium Games
  release.  Classic Traveller (CT) refers to the original GDW
  release - the little black books all the way through Deluxe
  Traveller (boxed set) and The Traveller Book.  MegaTraveller
  (MT) refers to the second GDW release, under that name.
  Traveller: The New Era (T:TNE) is the final GDW release, under
  that name.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Eagles may fly, but weasels aren't sucked into jets!

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:59:28 PST
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

In mail you write:

> 25mm is approx. 1/64th scale (S guage for you model railroaders!).

So you are saying that the average figure is supposed to be 5'3" tall? 
That's what 25 mm comes to in 1/64th scale.

> Of
> course, most 25s are nearer 30mm, which runs up around 1/53rd scale (close
> enough to 1/48th scale for many folk), so you will likely notice a bit (ha!)
> of a difference between your <25s> and, say, your Airfix or ESCI 1/72 scale
> troops... - Bill

Remember, the "size" of a minature is supposed to be the height of an
average person *in scale*. 

So:
      |	height
scale |	5'	5'2"	5'4"	5'6"	5'8"	5'10"	6'
- ------+--------------------------------------------------------
1:1   | 1524mm	1575mm	1626mm	1676mm	1727mm	1778mm	1829mm
1:6   |	254mm	262mm	271mm	279mm	288mm	296mm	305mm
1:12  |	127mm	131mm	135mm	140mm	144mm	148mm	152mm
1:16  |	95mm	98mm	102mm	105mm	108mm	111mm	114mm
1:18  |	85mm	87mm	90mm	93mm	96mm	99mm	102mm
1:24  |	64mm	66mm	68mm	70mm	72mm	74mm	76mm
1:32  |	48mm	49mm	51mm	52mm	54mm	56mm	57mm
1:36  |	42mm	44mm	45mm	47mm	48mm	49mm	51mm
1:48  |	32mm	33mm	34mm	35mm	36mm	37mm	38mm
1:60  |	25mm	26mm	27mm	28mm	29mm	30mm	30mm
1:64  |	24mm	25mm	25mm	26mm	27mm	28mm	29mm
1:72  |	21mm	22mm	23mm	23mm	24mm	25mm	25mm
1:96  |	16mm	16mm	17mm	17mm	18mm	19mm	19mm
1:120 |	13mm	13mm	14mm	14mm	14mm	15mm	15mm

Glance over the chart and see what the possible heights of a given size
figure are then look at the corresponding scale. I think you'll find
that most figures are *intended* to be 5'8" to 6'. 54mm fits, and I
know that was a popular "show" scale for Napoleonics. I think 48mm
miniatures exist, though I wouldn't swear to it. And 25 and 115 mm fit
ok. 20 mm kinda fits, and 30 mm (if such exist) also kinda fits.

The real problem is that for the most part the manufacturers *don't*
use a uniform scale. If they did, then you could complain about the
scale of the figures being off.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You won't get very much thrust that way. There'll be a *little*, but
> since the gases can expand freely, 90% of the vectors cancel. It takes
> carefully constructed expansion nozzle to get much thrust out of
> expanding gases.
>
> Notice much thrust from that pop-top can? Nope. Expand the same amount
> of gas through a properly designed nozzle and you'll be able to *feel*
> the push.

Which brings up the point that emergency evac ports will probably be
designed to completely limit this effect (ever popped the top of a bottle
of champagne/sparkling wine).

> As for what it'll look like, there'll be a lot of "ice" crystals as
> some of the liquid components get cooled below freezing by the
> evaporation/expansion. Most of these won't last long, but between that
> and condensation/expansion effects, I'd guess that you'd have a plume
> that starts out white with "sparkles" and rapidly becomes transparent.

So, should someone happen to have sensors aimed in the general direction
of the ship, as this happens, will the decompression affect signature?

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Ships on the ground *worry* their captains because of the elevated fire
> danger (much like seagoing vessels are at risk in drydock) the regular
> fire-fighting gear doesn't work. This may explain why many ships prefer
> to dock at a "high port" rather than land. It lets the ship be safe
> with much cheaper fire fighting gear.
>
> I'll have to remember to put lots of fire fighting gear in the "berths"
> on the ground.

Perhaps just evacute the bay within which the vessel is moored...Of
course, this would make, shall we say, unscheduled departure, more
difficult.

> In any case, the above leads to some interesting possibilities. Besides
> the dangers of ignorant passengers rushing into compartments that have
> "sleeper" fires in them, think of the fun of boarding a derelict. Even
> if it is old, it's still possible that there's a fire that's been just
> barely holding on and just *waiting* for something to stir up the
> atmosphere. Especially if the ship is derelict due to battle damage.

Ooo.  Devious ;>

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #378
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 3 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 379

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Drive failures
         2. Nobiltiy: Scum or Savior
         3. Re: Vegans: was  RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10
         4. Paint Removal
         5. Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         6. Re: Rafm Miniatures
         7. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10 (LONG)
         8. Iron Fist
         9. Re: T4: Cleon as Augustus
        10. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        11. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        12. Re: HEPlaR vs Thrust Plate tactics  (from traveller-digest V1996 #371)
        13. Re: Got T4!
        14. Re: Miniatures
        15. Re: Marine Officers
        16. Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines
        17. Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark McQueen <Hilander@lunatic.ak.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:22:28 -0800
Subject: Drive failures

>1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like?
>
>   Freezing cold, followed by a BOOM as the refined fuel (hydrogen) meets
>atmosphere (oxygen) and spark...
>
     An eplosion is unlikely if proper saftey measures are taken as there
will be no spark to start the fire. Most computers in traveller a fiberoptic
and don't have the capacity to create a spark. (however a person running
their fingers through their har will generate enough static that should they
groung them selves BOOM!!!) The person working in engineering on the other
hand is now a popscicle in the extreme. As I understand it most of the
drives are run on hydrogen, and liquid h2 is bad news for a ship crew not
just due to the fact that it is highly volitole but it is also very cold an
dwill cause problems with other systems. If you are rumming a fiberoptic
computer you have just flash frozen all of the controll links to the reactor
(this will most liklely cause an emegency shut down of the drives) causing a
massive power spike (enough to blow out the light bulbs). 
>> 2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?
>
>   The aformentioned BOOM might have a more immediate effect, but the
>power plant should taper off rather than suddenly stop. Safeties would
>probably take over and shut down the reactor quietly whle batteries/aux
>power take over.
>
      The drive is indeed going to taper off but not before it spikes if you
aren't sure of this shut off an out of tune deisel engine and give it a
listen. If the safty interlocks are working their will be a nice gentle
taper. However if they should happen to fail (due to being frozen because of
the liquid hydrogen) their will be a spike first.

>> 3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"
>
      Only that there will be a large amount of toxic coolant and harmfull
oxidizing agents released into the atmospher of the ship. Amoung them will
be Heilum, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Amonia, and Lithium (hope i spelled thm all
right).
this should make any clean-up operation loads of fun by requiring them to
ben in full environmental suits (as a gm I would require hostile enviroment
suits) and verry carefull as one wrong moove and BOOM! 

   P.S. Ifo you have a big boom thats it the whole ship is gone the
Atmosphere will combine with the hydrogen and the ship will be no more. Look
at the films of the Hindenburge (all 3 min. of them) if you don't believe me.

     Signed The Hilander




------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:46:59 -0400
Subject: Nobiltiy: Scum or Savior

Glen:  
  You obviously have been corrupted by your association with law... nobiltiy
are just like any other citiznes in terms of range of behavior, as Stu
pointed out.  Though more at Year 0 would tend to function along noblesse
oblige, as expansion stalled and the energies of nobility turned inward,
perhaps a larger number of nobles strayed from noblesse oblige (as Strephon
actually pointed out, and Norris realized).  

------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:52:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Vegans: was  RE: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
>(...)
> 
> PS:  I agree, with the Vegans lifespan *very* little (if any) knowledge
> would be lost in the the 75-80 years of the collapse.  Think of it like a
> 25 year hiatus for human culture, every middle aged person would have been
> fully adult at the time of the collapse, and would have had the benefit of
> high tech education...  I doubt recovery would take very long once the
> virus itself died down, and the vampire fleets stopped attacking.

While it is possible to imagine that a catastrophe would have a major impact
(imagine thermonuclear war on North America for example), I always thought that
T:TNE accepted that some planets would be less hit than others (hence pocket 
empires).  I can also accept that a large portion of the population would 
suffer greatly (remember the telephone sanitizers...), people like engineers
would keep their knowledge and be able to reproduce it.  Computer technicians 
might dissapear, but miners would still continue to mine and people would 
find way to reproduce their technology.  Remember, they can take all their 
time, they live to be 200+ years old after all!

My greatest problem comes from their lack of political unity.  We must remember
that this is a race that is used to living together in one political system.  
They wouldn't just go their separate ways.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Sep 1996 01:51:03 GMT
Subject: Paint Removal

>        I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
>"tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
>way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
>done you want to start over?

Yup.  Oven cleaner, according to Mike Cheney the modelling master at Sci-Fi
World.  Only works on metal miniatures, of course, and you have to clean the
whole miniature.  He said that it won't destroy detail.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Sep 1996 01:59:09 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

>> Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam
lines
>> use 20mm scale.
>
>Huh? Where did you get *that* idea? 25mm figures are 25mm:6 feet. Or
>roughly 1 inch:6 feet. That's 1:72.

25m is the distance from the feet to the eyes, not the top of the head. 
(Measured this way so you don't have to worry about headgear.)  Now, while
that holds true for my Rafm and Ral Partha historicals, their fantasy and
role-playing lines are closer to 30mm from feet to eyes.  

Now, when I look at the figures that came with my 1/72 model tanks and
airplanes, they look really wimpy beside my 25mm historicals, let alone my
fantasy figures.

To be honest, I usually _draw_ my deckplans at 25mm = 2m (or 1"=6' for space
1889), because it's easier.  

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Sep 1996 02:12:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Rafm Miniatures

>Seriously, I would have preferred to go to 25mm, but no-one stocked the RAFM
>miniatures. I found some others that "made do" but never enough. I didn't
>want my guys to shoot at *stormtroopers* in Traveller - just lost the
>flavour, somehow.

Rafm sells by mail order, too.  In fact, judging by the postal dates, I think
they have same-day service for shipping.  (I post my order on Wednsday, I
have it next Tuesday!)

They are also willing to mix-and-match figures, if your order is large
enough.  (I wanted some specific figures for a class project.)  Their
historical miniatures (eg. British infantry) run at less than 75 cents each. 
And their Traveller ships have recently come down in price!

OK, I admit I like their sculptors' style, but they are also _very_
reasonable in price, and very accomodating people.  (And looking for a
sculptor, if you want some work...)

------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:32:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10 (LONG)

HDHale@aol.com wrote:
> 
>    Nice thing about TML--you have a problem with an author's work, he can
> explain it
> to you in person....
> 
>(...)  The Vegans' main problem is that they had very
> high > tech levels across the board--this only increased
> the effects of the Collapse.  If you have collapsed a subsector
> in New Era, you soon realize that being TL 14-15
> only means that you get more D6 thrown against you, and the more
> likely you are to end up back in the Stone Age.
>

Thanks for the reply.  I must first tell you that I really was impressed
by the work you did.  I know I wouldn't have done it and I have been playing
with Traveller since it was only three booklets... (This is starting to sound
like: I'd like to go out with you but... ;-#))

I am surprised however by your comment concerning the number of D6.  I know what
the rules say... I am asking (indirectly I guess) question about the rules 
themselves.  Remember that the designers themselves admitted 'fudging' the
rolls when they generated the Solomani Rim in the first place.  They just
wanted a place that had a more realistic feel to it (I am quoting from memory - I
might be wrong).  Remember the difference between the Core sector and the 
Solomani Rim sector?  Someone remarked some time ago in a Challenge magazine 
that they felt differently.  The designers admitted then that one sector was random 
while the other one wasn't.  The use of generic rules mean that they might not adapt
to specific circumstances.  As I mentioned in another reply 'While it is possible 
to imagine that a catastrophe would have a major impact (imagine thermonuclear war 
on North America for example), I always thought that T:TNE accepted that some planets 
would be less hit than others (hence pocket empires).  I can also accept that a large 
portion of the population would suffer greatly (remember the telephone sanitizers...), 
people like engineers would keep their knowledge and be able to reproduce it.  
Computer technicians might dissapear, but miners would still continue to mine and people 
would find way to reproduce their technology.  Remember, they can take all their
time, they live to be 200+ years old after all!'

I understand that we cannot reproduce in a game the full effects of a catastrophe of that
proportion.  Even your work, while listing how many billions of people died, fails to 
carry this information (the mind just cannot comprehend numbers like these).  However, in
order to remain playable, the game must make some transgressions with realism.  I understand
your position and respect it, it does not diminish the quality of the work you produced, 
I just dispute some of the facts behind your decisions.



> (...).  A lengthy article on the Vegans will
> appear in TTC#11, along with a simple character generation sequence for your friend.
> 

Thanks, I think I am going to subscribe, can you e-mail me the phone number to 
telephone my subscription.  (I never NEVER send my credit card number on the 
net... I know, but this is my personal phobia... that and ugly disgusting
creatures crawling out from under my bed... and my son's diapers... and ...
oooops, I have more than one phobia I guess).  Seriously though, I would like to
subscribe.

(...)
>    Your assumption is that enough of the technically-oriented individuals
> from the
> various tuhuir survived, and that they have enough equipment to work with.
>  Also,
> you're assuming that they were able to come up with a solution to the Virus
> problem
> beyond blowing up the machine or disallowing certain forms of input which
> would
> prevent further infections.  Big assumptions.

I think this is a fair assumption considering the state of the universe in 
T:TNE.  The game assumes that the universe continued, at least in some locations.  
It would take only one Vegan planet (or community) to continue and spread.  If they
were to appear on a diminished (collapsed) world, they could build upon the local 
knowledge, some type of intellectual domino effect.  This is an advantage if you live to
be 200+.  On the other hand, a human ship arriving on a collapse world with a 
population would have to build from the ground up.  The knowledge having
all disappeared.  I must add that my assumption is not that wrong since some planets 
in the T:TNE universe still have billions of inhabitants.  You can only achieve these
numbers with some technology.  Once more, it would be easier to build from the ground
up with people who have retained the knowledge.  

> (...)
> 
>    Gee, so creatures that live for 200 years don't breed?  That might explain
> certain
> things if you take an Augustine view of things....
> 
>    Of course there would be Vegans alive who would remember the First
> Solomani
> Rim War.  The question is, are they in a position in 1202 of doing anything
> with that
> knowledge?
> 

Even if they couldn't do anything with that knowledge, the hatred would still
be there and would reflect in any dealings with humans associated with solomanis.  
How long did it take the U.S. South to stop hating the yankees (if
ever).  Some veterans wrote of doing their service in the South (before WWII) 
and their units were booed.  Only with the advent of Pearl Harbor did it change.
And we are a short lived race (in comparison to the Vegans of course, not the common
house fly :-#)).  The situation in the Balkans is another example.  In a slow changing
society (I am assuming that a long lived society would be slow in changing, at least
socially), the feelings would be even more present.  It would be as strong in the first 
(or second) generation.

> 
>    There are two reason the Vegans don't have a pocket empire in 1202: the
> story
> reason and the creative one.  The story reason I'd rather not dicuss at the
> moment, (...) 

Now you've hooked me.  Make it good and I'll forgive anything ;-#)

Once more, thank you for a truly appreciated product (look how many people replied)

Regards

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:57:55 -0400
Subject: Iron Fist

>6.	IRON FIST
>
>Argh! You stole my name! (Only kidding, mine is the *Eisern Faust*, an
>ex-Ine Givar stealth intruder scout, designed under MT).

To clarify, I did not invent that ship, nor it's name. I built a QSDS
version of a ship that had appeared in the old FAR TRAVELLER magazine from
FASA. (I had a photocopy of the ship and it's deck plans).

>And now a general question: how do you make a TNE/QSDS stealth ship? Under
>MT, you made the thing Faint and then added EMM Masking to reduce emissions
>to Nil. What now?

        Well, you can't. However, in the archive on Joe Heck's web page,
there is an Adobe Acrobat file called SSDS (Standard Ship Design System),
the "big brother" of the QSDS. It doesn include such rules, as well as being
somewhat more detailed. With this and a little interpolation, you could
build virtually any ship. It is very likely (although this is only my
opinion) that this could be the system we'll see in STARSHIPS as the
"intermediate" system between QSDS and FF&S. I know I intend to use it until
STARSHIPS comes out.

                        Allen  


------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:38:26 -0400
Subject: Re: T4: Cleon as Augustus

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> 
> Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>, responding to Ken Whitman's call
> forideas about Cleon, did say:
> --BEGIN QUOTE--
> (...)
> 
> I've been planning on using Augustus as my model for Cleon, but this
> presupposes some events.  Specifically
> 1.  The Sylean Federation has been expanding, but has enemies that are a
> significant threat; enough so that the Federation sometimes has to play its
> foreign enemies off of each other.  There are also lots of "little players" who
> individually are not a threat, but collectively exert a major impact on
> Federation foreign and military policy.
> 2.  The Federation is in the midst of a period of massive economic growth; so
> much so that it has created a chaotic economic situation of runaway inflation.
> 3.  As an outgrowth of 1 and 2, there has been an increasing "centralization"
> of authority in the Federation which has kept the situation under control.
> However, it has also proved to be a system vulnerable to manipulation or
> outright takeover by certain powerful and ambitious individuals.  These efforts
> have thus far been foiled through incompetence, competition from other
> powerfull and ambitious individuals, or by the efforts of more "populist"
> leaders (who are themselves powerful and ambitious).
> 
> This is not an attempt to directly map the Roman Empire/Republic onto the Third
> Imperium.  What I am aiming for is creating a similar set of circumstances..
> What this boils down to is Cleon is NOT the first Emperor-like ruler of the
> Third Imperium; he is the one who first acknowledged the situation and
> attempted to codify it.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Steve Charlton
> scharlto@avalon.com

Have you thought about Napoleon also?  His coming to power in the wake (is this the 
right word?  I am french canadian) of the troubles in revolutionnary France could give
us a good idea not only of one man taking absolute power but also the beginning of 
nobility.

For a long time, Napoleon referred to himself as the Emperor of the Republic of France??!!
The National Assembly remained and even kept some powers.  I think it would be interesting 
to hear from someone who is better than me in french history and to draw some comparisons...

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:45:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> >
> > One thing I thought of was a 'panic locker', a small booth you can dive
> > into and seal behind you when the compartment evac/isolation alarms go
> > off.
> 
> Possible, but you'd need several, as you never know *which* section of
> wall is going to be in the middle of the "problem". And even then,
> given Murphy, the only one in reach will require you to run *through*
> the LH2 spray!
 
They'd most likely be installed in obscure sections of the engineering
area, where theres a lot of machinery, etc between you and a normal
exit.  Probably a small open booth which closes automatically.  The idea
is that in some cases there may be a few seconds of time between the
alarm and evacuation.  Also, if the LHyd lines let go and you know
you'll soon be sucking vacuum, it might seem like a nice idea,
particualarly if the leak's between you and normal exit.  This makes
more sense than some adventures I've read (or was it CT?) which implied
that on decompression you could get in a vacc suit if you're quick and
lucky.

Of course, this falls into the same catagory of 'give the crew a secure
feeling' that escape trunks on submarines are in.  Nice in theory, but
useful only if the conditions are just right.

> In any case, always remember that the answer to "How long do I have to
> get to shelter?" is "How long can you hold your breath?" and if there's
> a pressure drop, it's much less than that as you don't *dare* hold your
> breath (ask any scuba diver what happens to an idiot how holds his
> breath during as little as a 20 foot ascent)(1 atm = 30 feet of water)

Yeah, I remember sub escape training.  I also remember the guy who
thought saying 'ho, ho, ho' on the way up was a joke and said something
else.  Let's just say the divers doing the training didn't see the humor
and made sure he didn't forget it. ;-)

Is there any _real_ info on decompression survivability?

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:51:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > sub movies where the guys are locked in the flooding engine room as the
> > boat settles to the bottom.  Always gives me the willies. :-[
> 
> Don't worry. Unless they were operating in *very* shallow water the
> pressure will crush the hull (and them) long before they can drown.

Now there you go messing with the plot of the movies!  Don't you know
that Hollywood always does their best to reflect reality? <g>

> 
> (Cheerful, ain't I?)

Oh, _yeah_!  I'll give you a call for a pick-me-up next time I'm going
in the hospital or such!  :-)

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Paul Kestner <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:06:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: HEPlaR vs Thrust Plate tactics  (from traveller-digest V1996 #371)

>>
>>So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
>>anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
>>GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
>>I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.
>
>
   I hope you already have plotted out the positions of the ice comets you
want...  Survey work like that takes time (lots of it.)  Not to mention the
travel time between comets if one of them is not enough to refuel your
fleet. (assume Haley's comet is average - further assume it is 3/4 ice -
Does anybody know where or how to find out it's mass ??) 
   For a small fleet one comet should suffice, but then why not bring along
a tanker?

   If your going to take a J1 jump to the inner system, and you are setting
up your stagging base more than 3/4 a light year out to avoid detection,
send in your survey teams 15 to 20 months in advance to either find that
comet/fuel supply, or set up a fuel depot where you can ship fuel in and
store it.

   These strategy notes aside, you don't need HEPlaR drives.   A one gee
drive operating at 1 percent efficiency will still generate a respectable
velocity vector over time. (or even 0.01 percent.)  So, it takes you a day
and a half to complete a maneuver that at full rating would only take 1/2 a
hour.  It is not like your power plant, (which is fueled for a year), is
going to run dry.

....
Paul Kestner  a.k.a.  pjwk@erols.com
parting remark: "The Devil hides in the details."
....


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:14:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Got T4!

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Matthew K. McLaughlin wrote:
[snip]
> 
> As for proofreading for IG, I do know that they are soliciting
> corrections.  If you want to go through the book and note every
> correction, then send your corrections to IG, I'm sure they'd appreciate
> it every much.  Someday, there will be a second printing, and they will
> need to know where the errors are.
> 
[snip]

OK, money where my mouth is. <g>  I'll work chapter 3 first.  Who wants
the other chapters?  And would anyone like to do a web page to make
errata input available for review before final submission to IG?

> Send comments to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com.  They are actively
> soliciting errata.  Check out their web page
> (http://www.imperiumgames.com) to see the latest errata sheet.

Yeah, that _is_ nice to see!


	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:18:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Miniatures

J D Burdick wrote:
> 
> I have been reading the thread on 15mm vs. 25mm miniatures.  It is great to say
> we have both, but it is not practical.  Having been a partner in Dark Horse
> Miniatures, it takes a thousand sales of a miniature to break even on set up
> cost for that miniature.  Given the size of the Traveller population, only a
> small percentage uses miniatures, it is impractical to produce both a 15mm and
> 25mm line.  It was finacial decision like that which lead to GDW financial
> problems.

Grumble, grumble, bloody spoilsport, grump, grump, ...

<g>


	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:40:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

At 01:32 am 9/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>> 
>[snippage]
>>         Given the earlier comment that Trav Military resembles US military
>> organization, any of these options would work. It's not unheard of for an
>> officer candidate in one branch to actually receive a commission in another.
>> Every year, a few Naval Academy graduates choose an Air Force commission,
etc.
>
>Yes, but most of that info is year 1000+, right?  I like the idea of the
>Imp. Marines having a tradition of officers from the ranks (or nobles
>_through_ the ranks).  Nothing says we have to mirror US military
>structure.

        I agree ... in fact I've felt that officers should rise from the
ranks since I first read "Starship Troopers!" 'Course, that's a bit
hypocritical of me, considering I chose not to rise from the ranks, but ...

        Anyway, I just wanted to point out there's justification for people
who are used to Traveller being more closely aligned with the culture that
created the game.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:40:47 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines

At 06:17 am 9/4/96 +1000, you wrote:
>Dave Golden said:
>>	Otherwise, just accelerate real slow.
>
>This would make the "Battle for Calibration Point Charlie" (_Regency
>Sourcebook_ p10, just above the execrable poem) really something to see!!
>All these huge warships trying to maneuver around at 10 kph (or whatever).
>They would all be sitting ducks - no wonder the battle was slated as memorable.

        Ahhh, but would ships moving in to attack a calibration point not
have HEPlaR? In fact, the more I think about it off the top of my pointy
head, the more I think MOST warships will have HEPlaR auxiliary drives. The
main tplates are fine and dandy because they don't take fuel. But if you
want to add an extra OOMPH, HEPlaR drives themselves are very small. So you
burn some of your jumpfuel. I can see most warships with 3-5G Tplates, and a
multi-G HEPlaR booster for when they really want to cook with gas ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:40:40 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 stuff I would like to see

At 12:55 pm 9/3/96 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > Well, I have MT's map, but still, a map of the 3rd Imperium circa year 0
>> > would be nice, especially in poster map format.  One hint for IG, I know
>> > this'll cost more, but is it possible to print the map on a cloth material.
>>
>> Cloth is a bitch to handle. On the other hand, while it *does* take
>> some special handling at the printing plant, Tyvek might work rather
>
>Tyvek isn't all that expensive to print on (family member in the business
>as source material---) for a run of about 20000 the price of those
>Tyvek jackets you see around is about $40 a pop.  It's gotta be a lot less
>for a map (it's flat).

        Have you talked to this family member in the business about getting
a few things printed up? I'd personally be interested in:

        A set of LARGE starfield hexmaps (about 3/4" hexes) that can be
butted up next to each other to create a truly humongous playing field (I
think BL misses half the flavor, starting out at such close ranges)

        Likewise a set of large white hexmaps, useful for drawing
landscapes, etc. on.

        Ditto a set of large gridmaps (about 1/2" grid).

        Ditto likewise a map of the Imperium.

        Anybody else got any suggestions?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #379
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 4 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 380

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Paint Removal
         2. Re: Iron Fist
         3. #traveller
         4. RE: Hanging on the Hull 
         5. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         6. Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident, Clancy, Building Minis
         7. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         8. re:t4
         9. Re: Removing Paint
        10. TEST
        11. Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome,
        12. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
        13. Re: Drive failures
        14. Converting "Tasks" from CT to T4
        15. Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!
        16. Nobility:  scum or savior?
        17. Imperial Jarheads
        18. Cheerful, ain't he?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:40:52 -0600
Subject: Re: Paint Removal

At 01:51 am 9/4/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>        I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
>>"tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
>>way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
>>done you want to start over?
>
>Yup.  Oven cleaner, according to Mike Cheney the modelling master at Sci-Fi
>World.  Only works on metal miniatures, of course, and you have to clean the
>whole miniature.  He said that it won't destroy detail.

        Thanks to all you folks who made suggestions ... either Pine-Sol or
oven cleaner. I don't happen to have any of either in the house, but next
time I get a chance I will.

        Now, any suggestions on painting tigerstripe?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:41:02 -0600
Subject: Re: Iron Fist

At 09:57 pm 9/3/96 -0400, you wrote:
>        Well, you can't. However, in the archive on Joe Heck's web page,
>there is an Adobe Acrobat file called SSDS (Standard Ship Design System),
>the "big brother" of the QSDS. It doesn include such rules, as well as being
>somewhat more detailed. With this and a little interpolation, you could
>build virtually any ship. It is very likely (although this is only my
>opinion) that this could be the system we'll see in STARSHIPS as the

        It _is_ the system you'll see in Starships. That's my NSHO opinion
as the person who wound up coordinating it for Don Perrin at Imperium Games.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:05:41 +0000
Subject: #traveller

Just joined #traveller in time to see @shadowcat wander away :-(  By 
the time I can get on without rug-monkey distractions, everyone has 
signed off.  Anyone want to meet at 9:00pm AZ time?  Esp. anyone from 
SFG| ?  Any evening but Saturday is fine, that's the night we play 
Traveller here.  Sorry, Stu could only join in on Sunday, he works 
evenings.

Suz
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:15:11 -0500
Subject: RE: Hanging on the Hull 

>
>From: Clint Fishback
>
>My gaming group discussed something similiar.  I think the jump field
>is about a meter off the hull.  So technically you could do this.  Now
>the effects on sanity from being outside.  Not to mention unless you
>could get inside your PLSS is gonna run out 2 days max.  Jump last
>7ish.
>
>Not sure what mutating effects the jump grid would have.

He he he he. One of the more memorable moments in my last campaign came
when, during a mis-jump, one of the crew of a Free Trader had to crawl out
to conduct an emergency repair. The grid was glowing', and the one-meter
"shell" was holdin'... until the PC noticed that the field was warping
towards her as she crawled over the hull. (She was blocking the grid).

Nothing came of it...except she completed her EVA a LOT faster than she
would have otherwise. It made for some nice, tense moments.

John Kovalic




******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > Executive Orders...  Definitely a Jack Ryan, if I guess correctly...
> > Haven't picked it up, but saw it in a bookstore a couple of days ago.
> 
> Read EO a couple of weeks ago. Yep, it's a Jack Ryan book. OP-CENTER MUST DIE!! Yep, 
> it's LONG, like _Debt of Honor_. Is it good? IMHO, Yes, but TC's done better. Both _The 
> Sum of All Fears_ and _DoH_ were better, by the standards Clancy set by his longer Jack 
> Ryan books. Of the shorter Jack Ryan books, only _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_ was weak.

   You didn't like _Without Remorse_?! It was my all-time favourite TC
book! 'Course it could be argued it's not a JR story, even though it's in
the same timeline. ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:31:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Death by Starship Fuel Accident, Clancy, Building Minis

Eris said:
>On my ships the fuel of choice is water, but your engineers won't be
>drowning.  <g> The water is also used as coolant and reaction mass.  Water
>is already very hot when it enters the engine room.  It runs through
>several cycles around the engine room becoming:  steam, live steam, and
>eventually plasma.  The effects of a fuel leak depend on where in the
>process it takes place.  It could be a stream of scalding water, but that's
>not as dangerous as if the leak occurs later in the process.  A small leak
>could result in a jet of almost invisible steam (or plasma) lancing across
>the room.  A large rupture would cause an explosion and basically parboil
>anybody in the engine room.  Not much different from hydrogen in the end,
>but a little more forgiving...perhaps. <g>

I used to game with a guy who had completed his nuclear power tech training
in the navy before being medically discharged.  He had some wonderful
horror stories about what a steam leak can do to a person - it's coming out
under very high pressure.  According to him, if they suspect a steam leak,
they proceed carefully through the engineering spaces, waving a broom up
and down in front of them.  When the invisible steam jet cuts the broom
handle in half, you've found your leak

>The ship suddenly shudders and lurches throwing everyone to the deck. The
>lights on the Bridge flicker and come back dimly as the backup systems kick
>in.  The boards around the control room are covered with flashing red
>lights.  Bleeding from a gash on his head Byner turns to you and says...
>
>>"Captain, the ship just shunted to battery power and I can't
>>raise Zathra on the comm.  She was in engineering working on the power
>>plant 2 minutes ago."

Donald Duck's voice comes over the intercom - "Captain, this is Chief
Steward Gorthak.  We have a problem - I was delivering Zathra's lunch when
the grav plates went down on deck 2.  Her body is caught in the hatch and I
can see steam vapor pouring out of the engineering spaces, and Oh shit!
Zathra's head just floated out of the hatch."

First, re:
>Wait a second! You *casually* mention a new Clancy and then don't even
>have the good grace to tell us the title? Or if it's in the Jack Ryan
>timeline, or is another (blech!) "Op Center" book?

_Executive Orders_, and it is in the Jack Ryan timeline.

Recently I saw someone post that they had created their own traveller
minis.  I thought I saved the message, but...

Anyway, would the miniature creator please send me email?

Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"We can't be so fixated on our desire
 to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..."
 -- Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:23:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

25mm from where to where?  Take a look at some ESCI 1/72nd scale figures.
Sure, they're 25mm tall (I just measured the TC from a Sturmpanzer III, and
he was...), but that's from the shoe sole to the top of the headgear - in
this case, including the fellow's radio headset - which likely makes sense
in terms of 6 feet.  Matchbox 1/72nd scale figures size out similarly.  If
you measure from shoesole to eyeball, you get something closer to 21 - 22mm
tall.  

Take a look at just about ANY metal '25s' on the market - they measure out
closer to 30mm+!  True, many of them measure out to about 25mm from shoesole
to eyeball - which, it seems, is how many manufacturers scale their stuff.
I guess we could all call our 25s '30s' and our 20s '25s'...  The modelling
community has a better idea - simply refer to things by their scale.  Our
use of mm height to denote scale is traditional but highly inaccurate -
witness another previous post where somebody (sorry - I forget who)
commented that 25mm figs went well with 1/48th scale models.  My initial
reaction was "baloney" until I checked the sizes of some of my "25s" and
realized they were BIG - between 30 and 35mm and within a few percent of
1/48th scale (about 1/53rd, actually)!  

Of course, if manufacturers referred to things by scale, they'd be setting
themselves up for all sorts of critical examination because everybody could
measure the scale the same way...  Merrick earlier mentioned that he
dislikes (GW) oversculpted big 25s - I agree.  Aside from the oversculpting,
they're not 25s.  If figures were scaled instead of millimetered, GWs "25s",
instead of being nominally 1/72nd scale or 1/64th scale, or whatever scale
one comes up with based on how one measures figures, would, using a notional
six-foot rule, simply be to an entirely different scale.

- - Bill


At 12:58 AM 9/3/96 EST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Another nice thing about 15mm, it's near 1:72 scale.  With 1:72
>>>minis, you have *tons* of models to bash into vehicles, etc. if you
>>>so desire.  
>>
>> Actually, 20mm figures are 1/72 - that's why a lot of WWII and Vietnam lines
>> use 20mm scale.
>
>Huh? Where did you get *that* idea? 25mm figures are 25mm:6 feet. Or
>roughly 1 inch:6 feet. That's 1:72.
>
>20mm is about 1:90 scale. 
>
>And 15 is 1:120 scale.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:19:43 -0600
Subject: re:t4

At 12:49 pm 9/3/96 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Attached please find a WP61 version of the SCDS.  I added a few tabs to get
>the tables to line up correctly.
>
>Attachment Converted: D:\Download\SCDSFILE.WPD

Many thanks ... it's posted now.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Removing Paint

Brake fluid works wonders as well.  After you get the paint off put the
miniatures in the dishwasher to get the grease off...

At 05:00 PM 9/3/96 -0400, lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
>
>>        I'll second that. I'm trying to figure out how to create
>>"tiger-stripe" camoflage on a set of Federation Marines. Anybody know a good
>>way of getting acrylic paint cleanly OFF a figure if you decide after you're
>>done you want to start over?
>>- --________________________________________________________________
>>   Dave Golden     
>I've used Nail Polish remover in the past, it seemed to work pretty
>well.  It doesn't matter if it is acetone or the other stuff, they both
>work fairly well.  
>I've only done this a few times, but it worked for me.
>Lewis Roberts
>
>
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 04 Sep 96 14:55:48 +1000
Subject: TEST

     TEST MESSAGE
     PLEASE IGNORE

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:01:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome,

>         Ahhh, but would ships moving in to attack a calibration point not
> have HEPlaR? In fact, the more I think about it off the top of my pointy
> head, the more I think MOST warships will have HEPlaR auxiliary drives. The
> main tplates are fine and dandy because they don't take fuel. But if you
> want to add an extra OOMPH, HEPlaR drives themselves are very small. So you
> burn some of your jumpfuel. I can see most warships with 3-5G Tplates, and a
> multi-G HEPlaR booster for when they really want to cook with gas ...

I was thinking this as well.  Again, for a military ship (sincve
they'll have extra power for weapons) the extra .357% per g ain't
bad.  You stop shooting and get a few extra gs to evade...

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:23:42 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

 
> Of course, if manufacturers referred to things by scale, they'd be setting
> themselves up for all sorts of critical examination because everybody could
> measure the scale the same way...  Merrick earlier mentioned that he
> dislikes (GW) oversculpted big 25s - I agree.  Aside from the oversculpting,
> they're not 25s.  If figures were scaled instead of millimetered, GWs "25s",
> instead of being nominally 1/72nd scale or 1/64th scale, or whatever scale
> one comes up with based on how one measures figures, would, using a notional
> six-foot rule, simply be to an entirely different scale.

The thing is that they are refering to it by a scale.  Any 2 25mm
figures should, within individual human variation, be in the same
scale.  They aren't.  The people who make 'em are sloppy.  Man, I
*hate* slop.

[rant off]

I haven't even bought a figure in years (aside from spacecraft minis
for TNE).  Bashing military figures from models works better, IMO.
While I see why they don't wanna get into scale arguements, it is
possible to sculpt good figures.  It is also possible to make good
resin castings that aren't full of bubbles---it's just that they
don't bother, and no one cares :-/

Next time you see a resin cast of less than 50 pieces that has *any*
bubbles in it *and* costs more than $50 (less if it has fewer
pieces) you are being treated like a sucker.

I'd say retail resin (<25g) stuff should go for ~$2 per piece, no bubbles.
Unless it's insanely complicated, then ~$3 a piece. ***Resin casting 
rant off now, as well***

Sorry, I went to the SF/comics/games store and saw some crappy ST resin 
models today for ~$50 that had 5-6 pieces, none of which would have made 
it past the trash can in my shop.  Again, I hate slop.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Drive failures

> From: Mark McQueen <Hilander@lunatic.ak.net>
> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:22:28 -0800
> 
> >> 3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?"
> >
>       Only that there will be a large amount of toxic coolant and harmfull
> oxidizing agents released into the atmospher of the ship. Amoung them will
> be Heilum, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Amonia, and Lithium (hope i spelled thm all
> right).

Got "Helium" and "Ammonia" wrong.  Among these --

- - Helium is chemically neutral, and not likely to be found in quantity 
aboard a starship.

- - Hydrogen, though it can act as an oxidant, more commonly acts as a
reducing agent (electron donor) in reactions.  I agree with most
discussion so far on the effects of a big internal LHyd leak, though there
wouldn't be enough of it to flash-freeze more than the immediate environs
of the tanks and engine room.  Explosion is really the main danger. 

- - Nitrogen (in its common diatomic form, N2) is very nearly chemically 
inert.  There would be lots of it on board -- 4/5 of the breathing air 
mix, if they use Earth-equivalent cabin atmosphere -- but it would have 
no special harmful effects in an accident.

- - Ammonia is a weak base (proton acceptor), and a very mild reducing
agent.  It's also moderately toxic to humans.  I can't imagine why there'd
be much of it on a ship, nor would it be outlandishly harmful if it were
there.

- - Lithium is a waxy solid.  It's a very strong reducing agent -- so 
strong it actually explodes on contact with water!  (I had hours of fun 
doing this in I-chem lab).  Being a solid, though, its potential for 
disaster is relatively reduced (pardon the pun), and also I can't think 
why much of it would be on a ship.

Not an oxidizing agent in the bunch. :)

My view of an LHyd internal leak is that the supreme Bad Effect,
outweighing all others, would be the explosion as H2 and O2 met, fell in
love, and decided to have lots of cute little H2O's together.  Note,
however, that while this would be an *extreme* fire hazard (setting lots
of little fires in hard-to-reach places, and perhaps spewing toxic smoke
from burning insulation et al), it would *not* in all likelihood breach
the hull.  H2-O2 explosions don't make much of a pressure wave, as the
reaction products take up much less volume than the reagents. 
Compartments into which LHyd directly leaked would also get the Big Chill
effect. 

>    P.S. Ifo you have a big boom thats it the whole ship is gone the
> Atmosphere will combine with the hydrogen and the ship will be no more. Look
> at the films of the Hindenburge (all 3 min. of them) if you don't believe me.

Note that the fragile external skeleton of the H. is visibly *still 
intact* through most of the first minute of burning.  Not much of a 
pressure wave, as I said.  Just a whole lotta flame.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:04:29 -0400
Subject: Converting "Tasks" from CT to T4

Any ideas how to do this? I have an open house coming up for our gaming club
here, and for lack of an adventure of my own, I thought I'd run "Shadows"
from the original Traveller hardcover (which, sadly, is the only one I have
in my hands yet :(). So, when it says things like "Throw 6+ to notice that
Zaphod has two heads, DM+1 if Int B+ or you are Arthur Dent" what kind of T4
task would you say this translates to? Formidable? Staggering? (everytime I
see that, the Python line "It's staggeringly popular in this manor, Squire"
goes through my head...)Impossible for anyone but Ford Prefect?
        Allen, who's up past his bedtime...

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:33:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>Obviously, there are going to be corrupt nobles.  Human beings, by 
>their very nature are going to be vain, greedy, arrogant, 
>megalomaniacal, etc...  On the other hand, not all actions by the 
>nobility are going to be openly cynical...or cynical in any way...  

I agree that there exists human variation.

>Many of the ruling class in Europe thought they were doing a service 
>when they subjugated the primitive peoples of Asia, Africa, and the 
>Americas...  

When you read the rhetoric of those eras (say 1540 AD to 1116 IE), you're
not supposed to believe it.  Compare what was done with what was said.
"Saving their souls"; "protecting them from [pick one:]  A. warlike
neighbors (who are allied with our enemies); B. vices (that we introduced);
C. communists (see A); D. Zhodani (see A and maybe B)"; "helping them
develop rational systems" ... they're all excuses.

[deletion]
>advantages of Terran prime world, life under the most corrupt of 
>nobles would be better, if trade is restored, if your family has hope 

I'm not saying that life under a corrupt noble might not be a better choice
- -- that doesn't make the noble any less corrupt.

>This is the gist of what I'm getting at...  In the early years of the
>Imperium, when the boundaries are going to be expanding at a rapid
>rate, there is no reason for a noble to focus inward...when he can
>build his power base by grabbing the system 2 parsecs over that's just
>getting out of the long night.

I think we're in agreement:  Nobles' violent and thieving tendencies are
best focussed outward as much as possible

>If all in your game is dirt, grit, and corruption, its going to be a
depressing 
>game...  It shouldn't all be dirt, grit and corruption in 0 I.E.  Some of
it will be, 

Again, we're in agreement.  It's no fun to play, and it's not realistic, if
everything is corrupt (it might be realistic in certain settings, like the
USSR under Stalin, but definitely not fun to play).  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nobility:  scum or savior?

>From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com

>  You obviously have been corrupted by your association with law... 

No, I had these views long before law school.  I was, after all, a history
major in college and a graduate student in history and economics.

>nobiltiy
>are just like any other citiznes in terms of range of behavior, as Stu
>pointed out.  

I think that you and Stu and I agree that there is human variation in
values, attitudes, and ethics.  Nobles are not like other citizens in terms
of range of behavior, however.  Nobles have much more power than anyone
else, and are therefore not as constrained by fear in when they act.  So
while anyone might have violent, thieving tendencies, nobles can put a gloss
of legitimacy on their violence and theft.

For example, Joe Citizen, UPP 777777, runs a big risk by robbing a bank, or
running a protection racket in his neighborhood, or even joining the
military, where violence is strictly constrained by discipline, and theft
usually discouraged (depending on the circumstances; sometimes soldiers have
been paid entirely in booty).  He's looking at time or worse.

Joseph von Hochplatz, UPP 77777C, however, can get government approval,
funding, and military support to destroy the ecosystem and local culture of
an entire world while extracting raw materials and pocketing the profit.  He
can even defraud the government, his investors, and his insurers, and, with
good lawyers and accountants (which he can afford), make the trail so
convoluted that it's so hard to prove that he did anything wrong that his
offer of settlement will be accepted.  He'll never see the inside of a cell;
rather, he'll be feted, admired, and solicited to apply his expertise to the
destruction of the next world.

>Though more at Year 0 would tend to function along noblesse oblige, 

Why? and anyway, so what?  

>as expansion stalled and the energies of nobility turned inward,
>perhaps a larger number of nobles strayed from noblesse oblige (as Strephon
>actually pointed out, and Norris realized).  

you point out yourself that the nobles' energies will be directed outward
during times of expansion, and that makes perfect sense:  why destroy and
steal from your own home when you can destroy and steal from someone else's,
and take the plunder home to enjoy?

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:33:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial Jarheads

>From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>

>After all...  they have been guarding our US Navy gates for almost 300 years
>and they have not lost one yet! :) :) {ducking real quick!}

As someone without any military experience (hell, I went to a Quaker
college), I don't want actually join this entertaining and enlightening
discussion.  As a former history major and graduate student, however, I
would point out that, as far as I know, there was neither a USMC nor USN nor
any precursor to them in 1696, nor until about 80 years thereafter.
Accordingly, it appears that the Marines' gate-guarding record only extends
for just over 200 years.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cheerful, ain't he?

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> Recall those WWII
>> sub movies where the guys are locked in the flooding engine room as the
>> boat settles to the bottom.  Always gives me the willies. :-[
>
>Don't worry. Unless they were operating in *very* shallow water the
>pressure will crush the hull (and them) long before they can drown.
>
>(Cheerful, ain't I?)

A professional diver who was a neighbor of mine once said that drowning
wasn't that bad an experience if there's no hope of surviving.  The drowning
person accepts the process and swallows water, which triggers a relaxation
response and the panic goes away.  People resist drowning if they think they
have a chance, and that's quite a horrible way to go.

As far as revival possibilities, the faster the drowning and the colder the
water the better.  

He said that the drowning scene in The Abyss was quite realistic.  We didn't
talk about WWII submarine movies.

He had never drowned, but had studied it and had talked with other divers
who had drowned.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #380
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 4 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 381

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Marine Officers
         2. Re: Marine Officers
         3. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #380
         4. Escape Velocity
         5. Re: Hanging on the Hull
         6. Re: Deep Space
         7. Re: A Design question....
         8. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
         9. Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!
        10. Re: Nobility:  scum or savior?
        11. Re: Escape Velocity
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #380
        13. [none]
        14. Re: Marine Officers
        15. Re: Nobles in History
        16. Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines
        17. Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:14:06 +1000
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

This is slightly off topic, but I feel that it needs to be raised.

Warfare is about siezing objectives from the enemy. The way this has been 
done has changed a lot since the days of the massed cavelry charge. Why?

Technolagy.

In the Napolionic era, muskets and cannons where not that accurate, so to 
achieve the best effect, you grouped them togetther and fire them at once.
Thus you have large ranks of men and large batteries. Cavelry was seen a 
shock troops, but in reality where little morr than fart scirmishers.

In WWI, artillery and personal weapons increased in both accuracy and 
lethality. 1 squad of machinegunners could wipe out a napolionic line in 
minutes, while artillery could kill more for less shot (napolionic shot 
tended to roll on the ground after a while, and their angle of launch was 
preatty low compared to howitzers and other altillery peaces of WW1). 
Massed lines of troups where still used in attack, mainly because of 
conserative leadership and the fact that the best way to overcome strong 
defence was to overwealm it. The tank was introduced in this piriod, and 
while not as stunning as it will be in WWII, it still had conciderable 
impact in terms of "getting there first with the mostest"

WWII saw a more fluid war that WWI, due to better transport technolagy 
and better equipment technolagy. The ammount of people you needed in 
attacks was less than before, as the persoanl and support weapons had 
improved, but more importantly, the tactical and stradagic thinking had 
caught up with the technolagy.

In Traveller, a marince SQUAD would bedressed in a battle dress with more 
punch and defence than a Platoon of M1A2 tanks. Faster too, with 
augumented exoframes and jump packs. Plasma , laser and battlefield level 
nukes (grenade size or equivelent).The line between tank and attack 
aircraft (and battleship for that matter) is blurred out to wazoo. 
Comuter and navigaional aids would be at a persoanl level, not squad or 
platoon level as it is today. 

Where in Napolionic wars, the field of battle would be able to be seen 
with the naked eye, in Traveller , whole contenants would be contested at 
a tactical level. 

Why am I Saying this : In Year 0 , there is only one kid on the block 
with Tl12 toys, Sylea. A platoon of marines can and would chew up whole 
armies at TL4, whole brigades in Tl5-8, and whol regiments at Tl10. 

This has BEVER been addressed in traveller (a friend of mine keeps saying 
that in Traveller, you are always refighting WW2). What do you guys think?


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

I don't think its so much that the style of warfare hasn't been addressed
in Traveller than it is up to individual gamers to adapt based on the
technology of forces at hand.  My own military Traveller campaigns have
certainly not been anything like WWII, not at the tech levels we are
talking about, and for exactly the reasons that Darryl mentions.  Simple
application of the weapons and capabilities of high tech troops
immediately leads to very different tactics than those employed by 20th
century Earth troops.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: "That Blues guy....." <94038589@STUDENT.ucc.ie>
Date: 04 Sep 1996 10:36:47 +0100 (BST)
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #380

    On the subject of miniature scales: I bought some "Airfix" 1:72 Tanks,
thinking I could use them in GW games. Turns out, however, that compared to
GW's "25mm" figures, the tanks (Chieftain main battle tanks) are about the size
of our family car. I thrust Airfix to get the scale right down to the last
inch, so GW figures are obviously far larger than 1:72.

- -Brian Caball

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:29:20 -0500
Subject: Escape Velocity

        I've been meaning to mention this for weeks now: have any of you
Mac people out there tried Ambrosia's Escape Velocity?  It's a game that
has a certain affinity to Traveller and TradeWars: you go jumping around
from system to system, trading stuff, running missions, buying better
ships, upgrading them, etc.  It's kinda fun.  Don't have the URL, but you
can websearch for Ambrosia or Escape Velocity...

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:29:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Hanging on the Hull

Mark Ayers wrote:

>------------------------------
>
>From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
>Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:37:59 -0700
>Subject: Hanging on the Hull
>
>A. So, undetected, I drifted over to their ship and was able to get a grip.
>I was working my way toward the airlock when they jumped!
>
>Questions:
>
>1. Did I live to tell about it?
>
>2. What might I have seen or felt?
>
>B. If DGP's work is cannon then we direct power from the crystals to the
>lanth. grid.  What about large thigs attached to the hull that aren't hooked
>into the grid. One meter would be just a tiny bit of that extra fuel tank
>the PCs lashed on.
>Mosaic Tapestry _______________________________________________________________
>                                                                      TRAVELLER
>                                  Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future


        I'll take a stab at this:

1) if you were wearing a vac suit capable of maintaining life support for
the week or so passed in jump space, immediately polarized your face plate
to complete opacity, and spent the entire week sticking to the hull like a
roach on a wall, you might a) not asphyxiate, b) remain inside the ship's
jump bubble and not go insane from the deleterious effects of jump space on
the brain.  Since under the MT rules a TL-14 vac suit has a max endurance
of 48 hrs or so IIRC, you probably would run out of air before reemergence.

        With regard to B), on the other hand, there's Grandfather only
knows how many gigavolts/gigaamps/insane amounts of electricity getting
pumped into the hull grid.  I get the impression that you'd go zot like a
fly on a bug-zapper, only much worse.  This might cause the ship to misjump
in interesting ways (which could make a useful plot hook...).  OTOH, you
could also handwave that that power is all going into creating the rip into
jump space rather than merely discharging normally, thereby letting you
survive.

2) What you saw: under our house rules, all ports are covered over before
jump and remain so until after reemergence, because looking into jump space
is bad for your sanity.  Therefore nothing, unless you like playing
severely mentally ill characters :).

What you felt (unless you were wearing a *very* advanced vac suit): extreme
discomfort as you were living in a vac suit for a week or so: waste
collection systems being pushed to their limits (bigtime yuck), chafing on
pressure points, your own stale sweat and fear stink overloading the air
scrubber (let alone the smells from the overloaded waste system), muscle
pains from spending all that time lying spreadeagled on the hull so as to
keep your anatomy within the jump bubble, that sort of thing.

        It's not something I'd want to try :).

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:29:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Deep Space

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>         Ahhh, but would ships moving in to attack a calibration point not
> have HEPlaR? In fact, the more I think about it off the top of my pointy
> head, the more I think MOST warships will have HEPlaR auxiliary drives.

I had been taking that as a given. Is this not the case? HEPlaR is
good as a backup M-drive, for deep space operations, and even as a
last-ditch weapon. I wouldn't design a warship without one.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:37:33 -0700
Subject: Re: A Design question....

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>     Say you wanted to have an orbital shipyard capable of constructing
>four or five ships a time of up to 50,000 tons displacement. How big 
>would it need to be? What would be the levels of staffing? The place is
>computer-controlled for the most part, and uses robots for a good part 
>of the heavy labor.

I don't think it need be nearly a large as the ships it's constructing, 
perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 of the total constructed displacement tonnage.  All it 
needs are clip on cargo holds for raw materials that can be rapidly 
removed and replaced once depleated.  The central structure would house 
personel and the radial arms would be where the construction took place. 
 I'd imagine the arms would have robotic, Canadarms on them for major 
external construction, Spine laying and hull finishing, and much of the 
fine interior work would be done by hand, electronics & powerplant.  

You'd need a crew of at least one per fifty displacement tons of 
construction and one robot (High Imperial tech levels not Post virus of 
course) per 5 or 10 tons of construction.

THis is all pretty rough guesstimates of course.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:12:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

On Sep 03, 1996 12:18:05, 'Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>' wrote: 
 
>Stuart L. Dollar wrote: 
  
>> Executive Orders...  Definitely a Jack Ryan, if I guess correctly... 
>> Haven't picked it up, but saw it in a bookstore a couple of days ago. 
> 
>Read EO a couple of weeks ago. Yep, it's a Jack Ryan book. OP-CENTER MUST
DIE!!  
>Yep, it's LONG, like _Debt of Honor_.  
 
Since I just finished it, I'll toss in my 0.02 Cr worth... 
 
>Is it good? IMHO, Yes, but TC's done better.  
>Both _The Sum of All Fears_ and _DoH_ were better, by the standards  
>Clancy set by his longer Jack Ryan books.  
 
Agreed; however, even Tom Clancy's "worst" (which this isn't) is 
far better than most best-selling novelists' "best".  My goal 
as a wannabe-writer is to write that well someday... 
 
The main problems I had with EO were (1) its length (840+ pages!) 
and (2) point-of-view characters shifting too often and too quickly. 
Other than that, the story is great!  (Although you all knew that 
Inspector O'Day was going to be where he was when he was, didn't you? 
Clancy kinda telegraphed that one.) 
 
>Of the shorter Jack Ryan books, only _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_  
>was weak. 
 
We're in disagreement here: I think "Cardinal" was one of his 
best... _Patriot Games_ (of which I have an autographed copy), 
is generally held to be Clancy's "weakest". 
 
 
                         --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of 
 your weird friends."                         -- Eric Oehler 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:41:29 -0800
Subject: Re: non-scum nobles? hogwash!

On  4 Sep 96 at 1:33, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> >From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> >Many of the ruling class in Europe thought they were doing a
> >service when they subjugated the primitive peoples of Asia, Africa,
> >and the Americas...  
> 
> When you read the rhetoric of those eras (say 1540 AD to 1116 IE),
> you're not supposed to believe it.  Compare what was done with what
> was said. "Saving their souls"; "protecting them from [pick one:] 
> A. warlike neighbors (who are allied with our enemies); B. vices
> (that we introduced); C. communists (see A); D. Zhodani (see A and
> maybe B)"; "helping them develop rational systems" ... they're all
> excuses.

First of all, not only is history rewritten by the victors, but it is 
also rewritten by each generation that follows it...

Late 20th century culture, by its very definition, has a very 
negative picture of feudalism and monarchy...  Understandable, but 
remember our view of the past (or the proposed Traveller future) is 
as biased as their view would be of themselves...

Hell, I live in America...  Americans consider themselves morally 
superior to just about everybody.  Never mind that they spent 100 
years screwing the Indians out of their homes, land, women, lives, 
way of life, culture.  They also forget about My Lai, Teapot Dome, 
Watergate, the 200 year long struggle over slavery and civil rights 
which continues to this day, etc...

EVERY culture, no matter how high-minded, has its share of rogues, 
and dirty little secrets...

I have long proposed that the US, for example is an oligarchy.  Think 
about it.  Only about 25% of the people vote in Presidential 
elections...less in other elections.  Yes, the leadership is 
popularly elected (although w/ only 25% of the vote this is also 
questionable), but think who funds their campaigns...the Kennedys, 
the Vanderbilts, the Forbes', the Gates', etc...

Yes, the politicians change, but their financial backers don't...and 
in the long run, who finances somebody's campaign means at least as 
much as what the candidate proclaims himself in favor of...

These views, of course, don't make me very popular with patriots... 
:-)
  
> [deletion]
> >advantages of Terran prime world, life under the most corrupt of
> >nobles would be better, if trade is restored, if your family has
> >hope 
> 
> I'm not saying that life under a corrupt noble might not be a better
> choice -- that doesn't make the noble any less corrupt.

Granted, but remember, such a noble in the early Imperium is probably 
going to be painted in a positive light by his people...  "Why yes, 
the Duke did kill that guy on 61 Cygni but look at the trade figures..."

> I think we're in agreement:  Nobles' violent and thieving tendencies
> are best focussed outward as much as possible

Let's extend that...  people in general have violent and thieving 
tendencies which are best focused outward...  Every human enterprise 
and government has eventually collapsed from internal decay...undoubtedly, 
this will someday be the ultimate fate of the western democracies as well...

I just don't like the idea of portraying every noble as a thief...  
Do that, and you're going to have a group of characters who have a 
great desire to push every noble they come into contact with out 
of the nearest airlock sans vacc suit ASAP.  I thought it dangerous 
to buy into this generality, and still do...

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:45:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Nobility:  scum or savior?

On Sep 04, 1996 01:33:51, 'sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)' wrote: 
 
[snip most] 
 
>>Though more at Year 0 would tend to function along noblesse oblige,  
> 
>Why? and anyway, so what?   
 
Perhaps the discussion about Tom Clancy's new book is more relevant 
to the TML than I thought ;-)... _Executive Orders_ has a lot of 
wonderful stuff about the *responsibilities* of both the guy in 
charge and the citizens who chose who is to run things for them. 
Pick good people who are going to pick good people to work under 
them.  "Noblesse oblige" is a fancy way to say "you are here to 
serve your citizens, not the other way around".   
 
If Cleon is assumed to be a good man and a responsible ruler,  
he will have picked good people to do the job of government. 
Thus, the assumption that Year 0 saw more of the "noblesse oblige" 
in action than later years.  If you pick good people, the 
"felon who steals the common out from under the goose" is going 
to be the exception to the rule, not the rule. 
 
>>as expansion stalled and the energies of nobility turned inward, 
>>perhaps a larger number of nobles strayed from noblesse oblige (as
Strephon 
>>actually pointed out, and Norris realized).   
> 
>you point out yourself that the nobles' energies will be directed outward 
>during times of expansion, and that makes perfect sense:  why destroy and 
>steal from your own home when you can destroy and steal from someone
else's, 
>and take the plunder home to enjoy? 
 
Again, if you are responsible enough to pick good people for the 
job, the "bad apples" will be a small and despised fraction of 
the total.  Face it--you have a government to run, are you going 
to pick known brigands for the job?   
 
The other obvious check on rapacious nobles: all government exists, 
in the long run, at the consent of the governed.  Push "the  
governed" too far, and they will throw your ass out of office--if 
you have a democracy.  If you don't, they'll stand you up in front 
of a firing squad "come the revolution"... 
 
                          --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of 
 your weird friends."                         -- Eric Oehler 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Escape Velocity

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, R.D. Elliott wrote:

>         I've been meaning to mention this for weeks now: have any of you
> Mac people out there tried Ambrosia's Escape Velocity?  It's a game that
> has a certain affinity to Traveller and TradeWars: you go jumping around
> from system to system, trading stuff, running missions, buying better
> ships, upgrading them, etc.  It's kinda fun.  Don't have the URL, but you
> can websearch for Ambrosia or Escape Velocity...
 http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/
 Very, very good and addictive game.


(Hint, javelins are god and manouverability beats armour any day)
bri <bri@teleport.com>


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:08:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #380

Dave Golden sez...
>        It _is_ the system you'll see in Starships. That's my NSHO opinion
>as the person who wound up coordinating it for Don Perrin at Imperium Games.

        I qualified my statement as opinion because I didn't want to start
rumors. I am very glad to hear that this will be the case. There is,
however, one thing missing which I noticed. There are no notes on how to
design drop tanks! or even what they are! I had to use FF&S (oh no) for that
:) which was OK, but if I were
a newbie, I wouldn't have known that was an option.
        You folks have done a great job on both starship design systems, and
as a Traveller fan, I thank you.
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 16:18:33 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED  : traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
FROM : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
Subject: Cheerful, ain't he?
DATE : 4.9.96

Glenn said:

>He had never drowned, but had studied it and had talked with other divers
>who had drowned.

Did my concentration on this fascinating topic slip or
something?  What did I miss.

Are we talking about curious time-travel effects here or just
plain seances?

>A professional diver who was a neighbor of mine once said
>that drowning wasn't that bad an experience

Ah!  So this is some strange new definition of the word
'drowning' that I wasn't previously aware of.


Timothy Collinson
Information Librarian (Technology)

"Actually that's 'Information Librarian (Without anything
better do with his tea break)"

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:25:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

David J. Golden Said
> 
>         I agree ... in fact I've felt that officers should rise from the
> ranks since I first read "Starship Troopers!" 'Course, that's a bit
> hypocritical of me, considering I chose not to rise from the ranks, but ...
> 
>         Anyway, I just wanted to point out there's justification for people
> who are used to Traveller being more closely aligned with the culture that
> created the game.

No arguments from me on that.  Just try to get me to be objective about
submarine related issues. <g>

	McL

------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 17:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Nobles in History

I have to agree with Glenn about the average Noble being a scumbag.  I just 
finished the book, "The Course of French History."  It was written around 1905 
or so by Count Pierre Dupuy, and translated in the mid-80 to English.  The book 
covered French History starting with Hugh Capet, the first French King, 987 
through the 1800's.  During the time there were far more accounts of greedy 
nobles worried about themselves, their property, and their serfs.  Slavery and 
indentureness was a direct result of the nobles wanting and keeping the common 
people down.  There were a few, (ie. Saint Louis), who were benevolent rulers, 
but they were the exception instead of the rule.  Keep in mind that the original 
author was French and was a noble.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:42:10 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Spread, Chris Foss, Deep Space, Imperium as Rome, Figurines

Dave Golden said:
[snippage]
> 
>         Ahhh, but would ships moving in to attack a calibration point not
> have HEPlaR? In fact, the more I think about it off the top of my pointy
> head, the more I think MOST warships will have HEPlaR auxiliary drives. The
> main tplates are fine and dandy because they don't take fuel. But if you
> want to add an extra OOMPH, HEPlaR drives themselves are very small. So you
> burn some of your jumpfuel. I can see most warships with 3-5G Tplates, and a
> multi-G HEPlaR booster for when they really want to cook with gas ...

Now that does really interesting things to the whole theory of
battleriders.  It also makes a nice little niche for a design I've been
working on.  A pseudo BR with jump-1 (or maybe 2) capability coupled
with a J-3 or better tender.  Jump the tender with riders in-system and
offload riders carrying fuel for a short jump, then put the tender in
reserve at a pre-designated location 1 jump away, maybe meeting a tanker
there.  Don't have to worry about protecting your weak ships and get
most of the combat effectiveness density of a BR while allowing an
escape jump.  It also eliminates absolute dependance of the BRs on the
tender, allowing independant action as normal starships in a lot of
places.  Finally, it gives the BR fuel to use for HEPlaR if the
situation calls for it.

Pleas let me know if there are any canonical problems with this concept
of which I may not be aware.  I was working on this with High Guard when
the T4 news came out.  One of these months I'll get enough breathing
room to aim SSDS at it.  (I never got into TNE, so I don't have FF&S.
:-( )

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Chronicle #10

Michael Koehne asks:

>> I have just finished reading #10 of Traveller Chronicle.
>Just a stupid question. From where can I get this #10 ?

   Not a stupid question at all:

   Sword of the Knight Publications, Inc.
   2240 Schuette Lane
   Henderson, KY 42420 USA
   Voice/Fax: 502-826-1218


Daniel Poulin writes:

>I must first tell you that I really was impressed by the work you did.  
>I know I wouldn't have done it and I have been playing with Traveller 
>since it was only three booklets... (This is starting to sound like: I'd 
>like to go out with you but... ;-#))

   I bought the the original three black books about 1982.  Thank you once
again for your compliments.  There were times when I began to wonder if I
could do it myself, but the material in TTC #10 is only the beginning.

>I am surprised however by your comment concerning the number of 
>D6.  I know what the rules say... I am asking (indirectly I guess) 
>question about the rules themselves.

   Had I not fudged the rolls for Terra and Dingir, they would have been
sliced and diced as well (come to think of it, when I did natural rolls for
Terra, it came out with a tech level of 9--not too bad, but not high enough
for my purposes).


>Remember that the designers themselves admitted 'fudging' the 
>rolls when they generated the Solomani Rim in the first place.  

   True enough, the Solomani Rim was generated "by hand", unlike many of the
other sectors churned out by GDW and other sources over the years.  My
philosophy on that is that sectors are like fine cuisine--though there may be
recipies for what you are doing, it's not something you produce on an
assembly line basis.

   The collapse of the Solomani Rim was also done "by hand".  At no time did
I rely on the aid of a computer program in carrying it out (I guess that
makes me the biggest mass murderer of all time, when you consider how
populated the Solomani Rim was, but fortunately my victims were made of paper
and ink, not flesh and blood).  Hopefully you see this in the way that the
subsectors were detailed--each one of them has a story to tell that is at
least slightly different than all the others.  That was the feel of the
original John Harshman work, and I hope I have to an extent recreated it.

>I understand that we cannot reproduce in a game the full effects of a 
>catastrophe of that proportion.  Even your work, while listing how many 
>billions of people died, fails to  carry this information (the mind just 
>cannot comprehend numbers like these).

   True.  People have a similar problem imagining the Holocaust.  It takes
stories like "The Diary of Anne Frank" or "Schindler's List" to bring the
point home.  Unfortunately, a role-playing game is a poor platform from which
to tell such stories. 

>However, in order to remain playable, the game must make some 
>transgressions with realism.

   Once you've read the article on the Vegans, hopefully the game reason as
to "why" will make more sense.

>Thanks, I think I am going to subscribe, can you e-mail me the 
>phone number to  telephone my subscription.

   See above.

>(I never NEVER send my credit card number on the  net... I know, 
>but this is my personal phobia... 

   Here you are preaching to the choir.  There are just too many horror
stories out there to make giving your number out over the Internet even an
option (IMHO).  My understanding is that they are working on technologies to
make such transactions more secure, and some businesses have already have
them in place.

>The game assumes that the universe continued, at least in some 
>locations.   It would take only one Vegan planet (or community) to 
>continue and spread.  If they were to appear on a diminished 
>(collapsed) world, they could build upon the local  knowledge, some 
>type of intellectual domino effect.

   Just as history shows us examples of battles that were won that should
have been lost, people who should have died but instead lived to do heroic
things,  nations that despite the odds against them that became great, so too
have there been battles that could have been won but weren't, people who died
before before their time, and nations that have been trampled under the feet
of invaders--nations that should have continued on for another millenia.
 Such is fate.

   It should be apparent from the material presented so far that the Vegans
on Muan Gwi have established a tech level base of 11 (about where it was at
the end of the Long Night).  What's not apparent is why the Vegans on Muan
Gwi haven't spread that technology around to other Vegan worlds.

>Even if they couldn't do anything with that knowledge, the hatred 
>would still be there and would reflect in any dealings with humans 
>associated with solomanis.   

   You perhaps are on to something here....as for doing something with
knowledge, doing anything mechanically or technically oriented takes one part
knowledge, one part tools.  The former can be learned while the latter must
be acquired or invented.  Who is more likely to get off a desert island?  A
guy who knows how to build yachts, but has no lumber or carpenter's tools, or
an accountant who doesn't know a spar from a poop deck but has plenty of
these things?  My money is on the accountant.

>Now you've hooked me.  Make it good and I'll forgive anything ;-#)

   I hope that you like what you read from here on out.

Regards,

Harold






------------------------------

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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 4 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 382

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Escape Velocity
         2. Re: Imperial Jarheads
         3. Re: Imperial Jarheads
         4. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         5. Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
         6. Re: 
         7. Re: Thoughts on Trade (long)
         8. CALL FOR ARTICLES
         9. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        10. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
        11. Re: Nobility:  scum or savior?
        12. Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....
        13. Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:20:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Escape Velocity

R.D. Elliott wrote:
> 
>         I've been meaning to mention this for weeks now: have any of you
> Mac people out there tried Ambrosia's Escape Velocity?  It's a game that
> has a certain affinity to Traveller and TradeWars: you go jumping around
> from system to system, trading stuff, running missions, buying better
> ships, upgrading them, etc.  It's kinda fun.  Don't have the URL, but you
> can websearch for Ambrosia or Escape Velocity...
> 
> *-------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
> *-------------------------------------------------------------*

I have, indeed, tried Escape Velocity. It is *awesome*. I recommend it 
especially to Traveller fans, as it contains many inescapable parallels 
to the traveller game.

I have the URL:

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Products/EV.html

There is also an unofficial fan webside with add-ons and such:

http://www.globalnet.ca/ev

I had started a plug-in to put the Regina subsector into the game, but I 
haven't yet gotten around to figuring out how to delete *everything* 
instead of just tacking it on. The problem just requires time, something 
I need more of...

BTW, I have several Hypercard stacks I made a few years back, including 
Character Generation (MT), Traveller Atlas, Trade Generation, and World 
Generation modules. Personally, I think they're quite spiffy. As soon as 
those bums at IG get around to sending me the hardcover I'll update them 
for T4. In the meantime, I'll post them to Dave Golden's website, or 
Goran's if anyone is interested...

Glenn

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:36:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

>amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)had a navy clerk say for him:
>
>>Let me make a comment to Mr. Murphy's musings...as a former U.S. jarhead, I
>>whole-heartedly agree with you (and your dad).  I would also like to say
>>that, if you can't be the best, Be All You Can Be.
>
>This means war.
>
>Battle of Yorktown:  Continental ARMY is backed up by the Navy and Marines..
>French Marines.
>
>Washington, War of 1812:  Capital burned after Marine retreat.
>
>China, 1930s:  4th Marine Regiment fails to notice incresing strength of
>Japanese Army in China.. evacuated to the Philipines, they surrender en masse.
>
>Normandy, June 6th, 1944:  Overlord, the largest amphibious invasion in
>history happens.  There are no USMC units involved.
>
>Inchon, Korean War:  MacArthur splits the North Korean lines with a daring
>amphibious invasion, led by the 7th Infantry Division (US Army)
>
>Chosin Resivoir, Korean War:  After marching into a trap, USMC turns around
>in full retreat.
>
>Korea, post war: South Korean goverment requests US troops remain, but asks
>that the Marines be withdrawn.
>
>"From the Mud of Parris Island,
>To the sands of Waikiki,
>We'll confuse the Navy doctors
>With new forms of VD"
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>+--------------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
>|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
>|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
>|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
>|********************************************|
>|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
>|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
>+--------------------------------------------+
>
>
Before this little war between the various services gets out of hand (as
this type of nonsense typically does, although I must confess that it is
pretty funny), I would like to make the point to all referees that this type
of "we're the best and you aren't" mentality would probably pervade tha
various Imperial Army and Marine units in the CT/MT/TNE universes, and could
probably be put to good use as background info for characters, or as a
sideline for a campaign.  
        I would love to make more comments vis-a-vis Mr. Berry's comments to
my comments, etc., but this is not the forum, even though he has some good
information (but not explained fully).  However, it does bring to mind a
quote from a former college professor- "why let the facts get in the way of
a good story?"

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:36:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

>As a former US Navy sailor let me say this about my Marine bretheren.  Yes,
>I said bretheren as they are also part of the Department of the Navy.
>
>I cannot in good concience disparage the US Marines.  They are very good at
>what they do and they perform functions that no other branch of the US (or
>any other) military can perform.  They provide our country with a wide
>variety of services and should be recognised for this contribution.
>
>After all...  they have been guarding our US Navy gates for almost 300 years
>and they have not lost one yet! :) :) {ducking real quick!}
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>-=-=-
>Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
>http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
>VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
>FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."
>
>
Once again, Touche, Sir

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:57:28 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

>> As for what it'll look like, there'll be a lot of "ice" crystals as
>> some of the liquid components get cooled below freezing by the
>> evaporation/expansion. Most of these won't last long, but between that
>> and condensation/expansion effects, I'd guess that you'd have a plume
>> that starts out white with "sparkles" and rapidly becomes transparent.
>
> So, should someone happen to have sensors aimed in the general direction
> of the ship, as this happens, will the decompression affect signature?

It'd mask some of the IR signature, by being *cold* and between the
ship and the sensor. Beyond that I don't see much effect, as the
"white" appearance requires that there by light to scatter. It may be
rather dark out there. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:48:31 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Ships on the ground *worry* their captains because of the elevated fire
>> danger (much like seagoing vessels are at risk in drydock) the regular
>> fire-fighting gear doesn't work. This may explain why many ships prefer
>> to dock at a "high port" rather than land. It lets the ship be safe
>> with much cheaper fire fighting gear.
>>
>> I'll have to remember to put lots of fire fighting gear in the "berths"
>> on the ground.
>
> Perhaps just evacute the bay within which the vessel is moored...Of
> course, this would make, shall we say, unscheduled departure, more
> difficult.

Dig back and check out my post on what groundside berths would be like.
Definitely not practical to evacuate them. Besides, since they are
designed to direct any explosions *up* and way from the rest of the
facility, they only have the fire fighting gear for two reasons:

1. The ship-owners and insurance companies insist.
2. They can charge for it. :-)

>> In any case, the above leads to some interesting possibilities. Besides
>> the dangers of ignorant passengers rushing into compartments that have
>> "sleeper" fires in them, think of the fun of boarding a derelict. Even
>> if it is old, it's still possible that there's a fire that's been just
>> barely holding on and just *waiting* for something to stir up the
>> atmosphere. Especially if the ship is derelict due to battle damage.
>
> Ooo.  Devious ;>

You only just noticed? :-)

Heck, you want *really* devious? Have the players open a cargo
container that has had its markings scorched off. When they open it, it
is full of liquid (or solid blocks) that have a *very* pronounced
blue-white *glow* in the dim lighting.

Bet you a cookie that the players either grab for the nearest radiation
sensor, or slam the lid closed and run like hell.

I can't figure out *why* a shipment of special high-tech luminescent
paint (the liquid) or plastic (the solid blocks) panics people so. :-)

(haven't tried that one, but I got similar results in a D&D game when
the players noted that the walls of the room were glowing. In that case
it was bioluminescense)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Marc Bergvelt <marcusb@HK.Super.NET>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:18:55 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: 

unsubscribe traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM

- ----------------------------------------------
Marc Bergvelt
Email: marcusb@hk.super.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     "A good poet is someone who manages       
  in a lifetime of standing out in thunderstorms 
    to be struck by lightning five or six times." 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
			 ---   Randall Jarell


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade (long)

 
>   (1) Question for discussion:  Are these reasonable assumptions?
>   How long has the Sylean Federation been in existence, and is
>   this long enough to have developed economical million-ton
>   (disp) per shipment trade?

	Probably not.  Million-ton ships are not really that much more 
economical than 20,000Td ships for shipping cargo.  I've done some work 
on this which I'll post when I can.

<the following edited for brevity> 
>   Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
>   commerce - commodity trade, goods trade, and luxury trade.
> 
>   (2) Question for discussion:  Am I talking through my hat here,
>   or is this reasonable?  What kinds of goods would you put in
>   each category?

<econ lecture mode ON>
	Economists talk about two motivations for trade: comparative 
advantage and competitive advantage.  Comparative covers trade between 
an ag world and a mining world, for instance.  Competitive is most 
important between two countries of similar comparative advantage, like 
the U.S. and Japan.  Flat-panel displays and CPUs are both hi-tech goods 
requiring a lot of physical and human capital, but the Japanese dominate 
one area and the U.S. the other because of the large investments required 
in each which the other hasn't effectively duplicated.
	What this means for Trav is that two TL-12 industrial worlds 
still have reason to trade.  It is likely that they may even trade goods 
that both worlds have strong industries in.  Americans buy European cars 
and Europeans buy American cars.  
	As for your trade categories, they basically make sense in game 
terms.  Luxury goods are probably about evenly divided between trade 
motivated by  comparative vs competitive advantage.  Buying and selling 
Andromedan rubies is probably different than buying and selling 
Andromedan pig iron, though, so it makes sense to separate luxury goods 
as a separate category for game purposes.
	An important note is that even if the worlds of the Sylean 
Federation are capable of being completely self-sufficient and are 
totally technologically superior to their neighbors they _still_ have a 
reason to trade!  The gains from trade are such that even if one world is 
in absolute terms able to produce all goods more cheaply than another, if 
their comparative advantages are different, they still gain from trade.  
How?  Well, imagine a TL-9 ag world and a TL-12 mining world.  The 
hi-tech mining world can grow food hydroponically cheaper than the Tl-9 
ag world can grow it and ship it to the mining world (for purposes of 
argument), but the mining world still gains from buying their food from 
the ag world because it can shift resources from relatively more 
expensive ag to relatively less expensive mining and the ag world can 
make a similar shift from mining to ag.  Both worlds eliminate their more 
expenisve products and can focus on what they can do best, leaving a 
larger surplus for all concerned.
<econ lecture mode off>

	What this means for Trav is that the nascent Imperium has very 
large gains to be had from trading with its low-tech neighbors.  I can 
see a TL-10 world producing large fusion reactors in exchange for 
miniturized fusion reactors from a TL-12 world.  Even more extreme, a 
TL-12 company could shift production of things like consumer goods to 
TL-8 or lower worlds to take advantage of inexpensive labor and material 
inputs.  The worlds of the Sylean Federation may have survived the Long 
Night because of their self-sufficiency, but remaining so will leave them 
economically stagnant.

>   Broadly speaking, I view the basic trade values in Traveller
>   as referring to the goods trade; commodity trade will command
>   lower prices at both ends; luxury trade will command higher
>   prices at both ends.

	If shipping is a competitive business then it won't really matter 
to the shipper since he'll just be paid per cargo container.  	
 
>   (3) Question for discussion:  Is this reasonable?  What should
>   the base values be?  Should there be a price modifier on goods
>   that require special handling (toxic, radioactive, fragile,
>   etc.) or special environments (live animals, etc.)?

	Things that cost more to ship should pay more to ship.

>   (4) Question for discussion:  What else should affect the
>   price of goods, at either end?

	Since trade will be growing rapidly there probably won't be enough
ships to go around at first.  This means people who own ships, shipyards,
and starports, will be capturing lots of the gains from trade, ie.
charging a lot.  
	That doesn't necessarily mean PC ships, because the megacorps will
be able to excercise large economies of scale in shipping between the core
worlds.  Jeff is right that Free Traders will be the ones blazing the
trade routes that are later fully exploited by the 'Corps.  Still, there
will be lots of money to be made for those daring enough to blaze those
trails and wise enough to know when its time to move on before they get
squashed by the big boys.
	Goods will be priced according to the type of world, TL, and the 
availability of shipping.  Where there's lots of shipping, prices will be 
the same (minus shipping cost) between worlds.  Where there's less 
shipping, this equilibration is not possible.  That means that 
established trade routes, with lots of big ships, will have a smaller 
profit margin than new routes where the gains from trade have not been 
exhausted and shipping is in short supply.
	In CT, I remember being delighted when my ref rolled an 
industrial world, an ag world, and a mining world all near each other.  
It was a perfect trading triangle and we made tons of money.  Even at the 
time it didn't make sense to me because I figured if we were doing it, 
why wasn't everyone else and driving the prices down?  Any new trade 
system should find a way to fix this problem.
	I could talk about this for a long time,about this, but I'll wait 
for comments before I run off at the fingers even more :-)



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 15:40:00 -0500
Subject: CALL FOR ARTICLES

  Freelance Traveller would be ready to go to press, except for
  one minor problem - There aren't sufficient articles yet to
  make it worthwhile, or even to keep it from being a laughing
  stock if we went with what we've got.

  That's partly my fault; I haven't urged people to write
  articles.  But it's not too late, and I'm now urging people to
  write articles.

  WRITE ARTICLES.  FREELANCE TRAVELLER NEEDS ARTICLES.  For
  now, you can go by the JTAS submissions guidelines (except
  that we don't require you to sign away the rights).

  Right now, we have a review of Traveller, and promises of two
  NPC writeups.  We can use any and/or all of the following:

        Adventures/Campaigns/Scenarios
        NPC writeups
        Location writeups (a la the RICE Papers)
        Equipment writeups
        Spacecraft and Starship writeups
        Alien Minor Race writeups
        Player and GM Aids for the computer (include source code)
        Fiction set in the Traveller universe (any Era)
        Writeups and Novelizations of Past or Current
                Adventures and Campaigns
        Rule Modifications and Extensions

  Op-Ed and Letters will also be appropriate, when there's some
  stuff to write letters about, or to opine about.

  Any of the above may also include artwork (GIF and JPEG format
  only), or Travelleresque artwork, with captions, can be
  submitted alone.

  Submissions should be sent to jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com,
                                             ^^^^^
  not to my regular address (earth.execnet.com is a POP mail
  server, which handles attachments decently; execnet.com is
  SMTP imported into a BBS, which doesn't handle attachments
  decently).  Eventually, we'll have another alternative.

  As soon as I have enough stuff, I'll announce the publication
  formally.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ These are the voyages ... No, they're not * DS9 opening


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:00:24 PST
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

In mail you write:

> This makes more sense than some adventures I've read (or was it CT?)
> which implied that on decompression you could get in a vacc suit if
> you're quick and lucky.

Which is why I'm a fan of "skinsuits". Sure, they are a pain to fit,
and hell to get in/out of. But that's why you wear them *as* your
"underwear". You only need to get into/out of them once a day. Probably
in the (pressure tight!) shower compartment. 

> Of course, this falls into the same catagory of 'give the crew a secure
> feeling' that escape trunks on submarines are in.  Nice in theory, but
> useful only if the conditions are just right.

Yeah. Just picture the guy inside a panic locker as it slowly dawns on
him that whatever happened appears to have killed or incapacitated the
rest of the crew... That'd be about as much fun as sitting on the
bottom in a disabled sub and *hoping* that a DSRV will show up before
the air runs out. :-(

>> In any case, always remember that the answer to "How long do I have to
>> get to shelter?" is "How long can you hold your breath?" and if there's
>> a pressure drop, it's much less than that as you don't *dare* hold your
>> breath (ask any scuba diver what happens to an idiot how holds his
>> breath during as little as a 20 foot ascent)(1 atm = 30 feet of water)
>
> Yeah, I remember sub escape training.  I also remember the guy who
> thought saying 'ho, ho, ho' on the way up was a joke and said something
> else.  Let's just say the divers doing the training didn't see the humor
> and made sure he didn't forget it. ;-)
>
> Is there any _real_ info on decompression survivability?

Yep. The sci.space FAQ gives some references. There were a lot of
experiments with chimps, and a couple of accidental exposures of humans
to fairly hard vacuum (accidents in the *big* vacuum chambers at places
like Wright-Patterson).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:35:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

Dragoness Eclectic wrote:
> 
> On Sep 03, 1996 12:18:05, 'Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>' wrote:
> <<generational deletia>>
> 
> Since I just finished it, I'll toss in my 0.02 Cr worth...
> 
> >Is it good? IMHO, Yes, but TC's done better.
> >Both _The Sum of All Fears_ and _DoH_ were better, by the standards
> >Clancy set by his longer Jack Ryan books.
> 
> Agreed; however, even Tom Clancy's "worst" (which this isn't) is
> far better than most best-selling novelists' "best".  My goal
> as a wannabe-writer is to write that well someday...

I'm in agreement here, too. Clancy tells a story far, far better than most of the 
alleged a-list novelists. I wouldn't give you three cents for Danielle Steel's latest 
drool.

> 
> The main problems I had with EO were (1) its length (840+ pages!)
> and (2) point-of-view characters shifting too often and too quickly.

Frankly, I _like_ good, long novels. I really don't care how long a Clancy novel gets, 
because the man is simply incapable of writing dull (to quote S. Robinson on Robert 
Heinlein). As for the dizzying PoV shifts -- The "three-ring-circus" is characteristic 
of techno-fiction, and the complexity of Clancy's plots demand split-second timing and 
rapid PoV changes. Recall how the rapid changes built exctiment in _TSoaF_ .

> Other than that, the story is great!  (Although you all knew that
> Inspector O'Day was going to be where he was when he was, didn't you?
> Clancy kinda telegraphed that one.)

TC _often_ telegraphs his moves. . . and I don't really care, as they feed fan 
speculation until The Next One is out.

> 
> >Of the shorter Jack Ryan books, only _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_
> >was weak.
> 
> We're in disagreement here: I think "Cardinal" was one of his
> best... _Patriot Games_ (of which I have an autographed copy),
> is generally held to be Clancy's "weakest".

Weakest of all or the weakest of the Jack Ryan books? I think _Red Storm Rising_ is the 
weakest fiction he's written (but, keep in mind that a bad TC beats the divine snot out 
of the best of the rest).


Cheers,

Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:34:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Nobility:  scum or savior?

Dragoness Eclectic wrote:
> 
> On Sep 04, 1996 01:33:51, 'sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)' wrote:
> 
> [snip most]
> 
> >>Though more at Year 0 would tend to function along noblesse oblige,
> >
> >Why? and anyway, so what?
> 
> Perhaps the discussion about Tom Clancy's new book is more relevant
> to the TML than I thought ;-)... _Executive Orders_ has a lot of
> wonderful stuff about the *responsibilities* of both the guy in
> charge and the citizens who chose who is to run things for them.
> Pick good people who are going to pick good people to work under
> them.  "Noblesse oblige" is a fancy way to say "you are here to
> serve your citizens, not the other way around".

**Sigh** Those little lectures were my favorite parts of _EO_. The timing of the novel's 
release is suspicious, given the US Election calender.

I'm running a game of TNE on a BBS set in an alternate 1116 where Stephron's daughter 
was not assassinated, but was wounded, by Dulinor, and escaped toward the Marches on an 
Imperiallines courier. When the PCs met her, they proceeded to treat her like some kind 
of china-doll stuffed with nerve-gas: beautiful, fragile, and deadly if not handled 
carefully. Much to their surprise, Crown Princess Isolande (renamed her, too) is a very 
real human being who is well-aware of the meaning of _noblesse oblige_ and the depths to 
which the Imperium has sunk because of the scum elements of the nobility. Isolande is 
constantly showing my PCs _by example_ that she works for them and she is honor-bound to 
work harder, work longer, and bear her share of dangers.   

<<deletia>>

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:18:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Brief questions, writing, ect....

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> > Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > > Executive Orders...  Definitely a Jack Ryan, if I guess correctly...
> > > Haven't picked it up, but saw it in a bookstore a couple of days ago.
> >
> > Read EO a couple of weeks ago. Yep, it's a Jack Ryan book. OP-CENTER MUST DIE!! Yep,
> > it's LONG, like _Debt of Honor_. Is it good? IMHO, Yes, but TC's done better. Both _The
> > Sum of All Fears_ and _DoH_ were better, by the standards Clancy set by his longer Jack
> > Ryan books. Of the shorter Jack Ryan books, only _The Cardinal of the Kremlin_ was weak.
> 
>    You didn't like _Without Remorse_?! It was my all-time favourite TC
> book! 'Course it could be argued it's not a JR story, even though it's in
> the same timeline. ;)

Vague Spoiler Alert! 





Of course I liked _WR_ I didn't mention it because it wasn't, in the strict sense, a 
Jack Ryan novel . . .

Now what an idea for a merc contract: destabilize a major government. Mebee we can crash 
a starship into Government House . . . and back that up by releasing a viral plague at 
the same time . . . ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:20:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> This is slightly off topic, but I feel that it needs to be raised.
> 
> Warfare is about siezing objectives from the enemy. The way this has been
> done has changed a lot since the days of the massed cavelry charge. Why?

Dead wrong, Darryl. Dead, bloody wrong.

If by "about," you mean "the objective in" warfare, then warfare is about denying the 
enemy the ability to wage war, not about siezing objectives. If by siezing an abjective, 
you deny the enemy the ability to wage war, than you have a case. 

However, I might point out that it is possible to limit the enemy's ability to wage war 
without "taking objectives." Logistics is a case in point. Deny the enemy supplies, and 
you take away his ability to hurt you. Attack his _will_ to hurt you, and he will stop 
making war. Case in point: Viet Nam. The US had the firepower to rule the battlefields 
and "take objectives," but the North Vietnamese adopted a strategy that attacked 
America's will to continue (and the government of the time made it too easy for the 
North to do so).

> 
> Technolagy.
> 
> In the Napolionic era, muskets and cannons where not that accurate, so to
> achieve the best effect, you grouped them togetther and fire them at once.
> Thus you have large ranks of men and large batteries. Cavelry was seen a
> shock troops, but in reality where little morr than fart scirmishers.

Fire-shock tactics 101. 
Heavy cavalry's days as shock troops were numbered in the 13th Century. References: 
Augincourt -- Cav vs. longbow. Mortgarten: cavalry vs. Swiss pikes.
> 
> In WWI, artillery and personal weapons increased in both accuracy and
> lethality. 1 squad of machinegunners could wipe out a napolionic line in
> minutes, 

And often did.

> while artillery could kill more for less shot (napolionic shot
> tended to roll on the ground after a while, and their angle of launch was
> preatty low compared to howitzers and other altillery peaces of WW1).

Not only that, but WWI artillery rounds were _fragmentation_ rounds. 

> Massed lines of troups where still used in attack, mainly because of
> conserative leadership and the fact that the best way to overcome strong
> defence was to overwealm it. 

Infantry doctrine had not evolved fast enough to keep up with technology. In 1918, the 
Germans used a then-revolutionary infantry doctrine -- rapid advances in open formations 
to bypass stiff resistance and overcome other resistance to penetrate deep into the 
enemy's rear and ultimately deny him the means to wage war. These tactics were an early 
foot-bound version of the much-feared _Blitzkrieg_.

>The tank was introduced in this piriod, and
> while not as stunning as it will be in WWII, it still had conciderable
> impact in terms of "getting there first with the mostest"

The tank was the other, mechanistic, answer to the machine gun.

> 
> WWII saw a more fluid war that WWI, due to better transport technolagy
> and better equipment technolagy. The ammount of people you needed in
> attacks was less than before, as the persoanl and support weapons had
> improved, but more importantly, the tactical and stradagic thinking had
> caught up with the technolagy.
> 
> In Traveller, a marince SQUAD would bedressed in a battle dress with more
> punch and defence than a Platoon of M1A2 tanks. Faster too, with
> augumented exoframes and jump packs. Plasma , laser and battlefield level
> nukes (grenade size or equivelent).The line between tank and attack
> aircraft (and battleship for that matter) is blurred out to wazoo.
> Comuter and navigaional aids would be at a persoanl level, not squad or
> platoon level as it is today.

Okay, fewer individuals can do the same damage. The line between artillery, infantry and 
cavalry is blurred, thanks to Technology. I can buy this. 

However, does technological advance change the entire thrust of warfare as we know it? 

NO!!!

Firepower is firepower. Cavalry, weather it is a guy on a nag, a guy in a helicopter or 
some kind of futuristic super-trooper who can level cities with an eyeblink and a long 
grunt IS STILL CAVALRY. Infantry, weather they are armed with sticks, swords, spears, 
muskets, M-16s or PGMPs are _still_ infantry. Artillery -- torsion-powered, CPR, energy, 
whatever -- IS STILL ARTILLERY!

Yes, tactical realities must adapt to technology, but the eternal imperatives of warfare 
are still the same and will remain the same.

<<deletia>>
> 
> This has BEVER been addressed in traveller (a friend of mine keeps saying
> that in Traveller, you are always refighting WW2). What do you guys think?

The disparity of which you speak _was_ addressed in _Striker_ and _Striker II_. Low-tech 
armies get ground into sausage against high-tech armies in combat. The challenge for the 
low-tech guys is to find a way to win -- to deny the enemy the means to wage war -- that 
does not involve human-wave assaults, etc.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #382
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 4 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 383

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         2. Re: Re: Nobles in History
         3. Re: Imperial Jarheads
         4. Re: Miniature Slop
         5. IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
         6. Marines v. Army
         7. Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         8. Re: Thoughts on trade
         9. Re: HEPlaR vs Thrust Plate tactics  (from traveller-digest V1996 #371)
        10. Re: Thoughts on Trade (long)
        11. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
        12. Disciples of the Bright Way
        13. Re: Thoughts on trade
        14. Re: Big Guns and Fertilizer!
        15. Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet
        16. Re: Marine Officers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 05 Sep 1996 00:35:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

>So you are saying that the average figure is supposed to be 5'3" tall? 
>That's what 25 mm comes to in 1/64th scale.

Sounds about right: my eyes are 5'3" off the ground.


>Remember, the "size" of a minature is supposed to be the height of an
>average person *in scale*. 

Actually, the size of the miniature is supposed to be the measure from eyes
to ground.  This is because many/most historical miniatures (which started
the business) have hats.  After all, your average Grenadier Guard is a lot
taller than 6' when he's wearing his busby (that tall black fur hat).  

You're right, most manufacturers aren't too careful about scale, especially
with their RPG lines.  (Rafm's Cthulu figures, for example, are huge compared
to their historical figures, and they're done by the same sculptor.  They
look OK next to Ral Partha Shadowrun figures.) I've got used to it, and after
all people vary in height, but I wish manufacturers were more consistent.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 05 Sep 1996 00:53:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Nobles in History

>Slavery and 
>indentureness was a direct result of the nobles wanting and keeping the
common 
>people down.  There were a few, (ie. Saint Louis), who were benevolent
rulers, 
>but they were the exception instead of the rule.

And you can say exactly the same thing about capitalists.  Look at all the
chaps who coughed out their lungs or mangled themselves in machinery; look at
the children working 14 hour days six days a week in the mills; look at...

Come to that, ask someone in a modern slum how free they are.  

One of the good things about having an individual noble is you have someone
responsible.  A capitalist can hide behind the corporation.


Look at how Niven and Pournelle treat nobles in the Mote books.  In the
first, they have a tradition/expectation of service.  By the second, this is
beginning to fade.

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Jarheads

>would point out that, as far as I know, there was neither a USMC nor USN nor
>any precursor to them in 1696, nor until about 80 years thereafter.
>Accordingly, it appears that the Marines' gate-guarding record only extends
>for just over 200 years.
>
>
Yeah... but I'll give em the credit anyways! :) 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:20:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Miniature Slop

At 04:35 AM 9/4/96 -0400, Merrick wrote:
>Man, I *hate* slop.

As a long standing miniature ARMY collector (Modern, Renaissance and
Ancient, 6, 15 and 25mm), I jave never actually beleived it was slop.  I
always suspected that it was  a deliberate effort by the major figure
manufaturers to make sure that for any given army you only bought their
material -- no matter how good it might look in units from one source,
incompatable figures never looked good together (unless you were doing
really hairy barbarians and wanted that "who, us, in the army?" look)

Did have fun with one 15mm traveller Vagre.  His paws were in the right
position, so I cut out his pistol and gave him a pike.  Put him in the
middle if the third rank of my Landsknecht. "But he told the captain he was
from Hungary!"
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 05 Sep 96 10:40:01 +1000
Subject: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

     Has anybody considered the possibility that there may be different 
     subspecies of Aslan? There certainly *are* a range of Vargr 'races', 
     as I recall from 'Cogs & Dogs', ranging from huge to tiny, with a 
     variety of appearances; and there is quite a bit of variation within the 
species *homo sapiens* too! 
     
     Perhaps we should be a bit less worried about 'canon' graphics, since 
     different artists are of course going to have different styles. Ever 
     heard of artistic license? I guarantee that no *real* artist would 
     want to work for IG if they kept on saying "Oh, no no no! Aslan don't 
     look like that, the whiskers are too pointy! Just look at that 
     dewclaw, he looks like he's been chewing on it; and his eyes and hair 
     are so dull and lifeless! Makeup! Makeup!! MAKEUP!!!! <swoons>". 
     
     Art just ain't like that - it's not a tap that you turn on and off at 
     will. I thought the pic was quite good, although I agree that Aslan 
     looks like its mum got up to no good with the Klingon milkman... ;]
     
     PS a couple of months ago there was a discussion about the origin of 
     the word 'Aslan'. I can confirm that the word is Turkish for 'lion' 
     (but in Turkish it seems to be pronounced more like "uslun", at least 
     the way we Aussies would say it); so does that mean it is 'canon' that 
     a Turkish Solomani explorer first encountered the Aslan? 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 05 Sep 96 10:48:10 +1000
Subject: Marines v. Army

     The only Marines we have in Australia are the ones guarding the US 
     Embassy here in Canberra. They look like big mean dudes with a chronic 
     hair deficiency. Except for the palms of their hands (stop it or 
     you'll go blind!)
     
     Anyway, on the subject of officers...the best officers I have known 
     have been enlisted men who have then gone to officer school. T4 needs 
     a negative survival DM in the first term for *schoolboy officers* that 
     come out of military academy knowing f&^$ all about anything, thinking 
     they deserve some kind of adulation for learning to iron, spit polish 
     boots and talk like a boarding school prefect. 
     
     Worthless pack of oxygen thieves, the lot of them. Perhaps there 
     should be a separate roll for *one of your corporals grabs you and 
     bashes the bejeezuys out of you because you're such a jacked-up little 
     &#%k*. Not I had anything to do with such an incident in Townsville, 
Queensland a number of years ago...  :o  <protesting innocence> 
     
     Military academies don't produce many good officers; it's the 
     *battalions* (specifically platoon sergeants) that make good officers 
     out of the *very ordinary* raw materials produced by the military 
academies. I suggest that enlisted soldiers/marines/spacers get the chance to 
enter military/naval academy, with bonuses on their success roll for INT, terms 
of service and combat experience. *Real* soldiers don't have too many problems 
with officer training, except for some of the classroom stuff! 
     
     You might also want to consider using the British Commonwealth system of 
     military ranks for armies on some worlds, just to give a different 
     flavour. Officer ranks are pretty much as in the US Army, but enlisted 
     ranks (ORs) are a bit different, particularly at the higher NCO ranks: 
     
     (for infantry units) 
     Private  (PTE)
     Lance-corporal (LCPL)  Section 2IC
     Corporal   (CPL)       Section Commander; same as sergeant in US Army
     Sergeant   (SGT)       Platoon sergeant
     (Staff Sergeant) Senior NCO not in chain of command eg clerk, stores
     Warrant Officer Class 2  Company Sergeant Major (CSM)
     Warrant Officer Class 1  Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM); aka 'God' :)
     
     In the Commonwealth system you would *never* see a Sergeant leading a 
     section (squad for you yanks), but you often see LCPLs filling in for CPLs 
and privates for LCPLs. Promotion commonly occurs from SGT to WO2 (Staff Sgt is 
often a specialist rank). 
     
     
     PS Army 3, Marines 2 

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:51:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

On 5 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >So you are saying that the average figure is supposed to be 5'3" tall? 
> >That's what 25 mm comes to in 1/64th scale.
> 
> Sounds about right: my eyes are 5'3" off the ground.

[Silliness mode ON]

A picture just came into my mind: what if /everyone's/ eyes were 5'3" off 
the ground, regardless of overall height?  :)  

[Silliness mode OFF]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:28:50 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

In mail you write:

>   Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
>   commerce - commodity trade, where large quantities of low-cost
>   and/or consumable/disposable goods are shipped because it's
>   cheaper than producing locally (example: machine parts on a
>   world that doesn't have accessible ores); goods trade (can't
>   think of a better name), where moderate quantities are shipped
>   as an alternative to local production, because of perceived
>   "cachet" or better quality (example: ground cars to a planet
>   with a slightly lower TL); and luxury trade, where small
>   quantities commanding high prices are shipped, because limited
>   quantities of the good are available, or there is limited
>   source, or anything else that might make something command a
>   high price (example: garments made of the fur of an animal
>   that only lives in one system in the subsector - or the fur
>   itself, to be made into garments at destination).

I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it. And you'll
get similar amounts of the other "rare" elements. Plus lots and lots of
oxygen, silicon, titanium, aluminum, etc. 

This has all sorts of consequences. Most don't break canon. The only
real "break" is the lack of a commodities trade in raw materials. And
given the fact that all the trade systems so far are broken to one
degree or another, I don''t think it's that big a deal.

But among other things, this means that one of the *cheapest* materials
is quartz glass (silicon dioxide). It'd be the primary output of of an
extractor (actually, it'd be silicon and oxygen in plasma states, but
it's easy to combine them). Aluminum is the cheapest metal, with
titanium not that much more expensive. Iron is less abundant, so it'll
cost nore. But it'll still be cheap.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:49:13 PST
Subject: Re: HEPlaR vs Thrust Plate tactics  (from traveller-digest V1996 #371)

In mail you write:

>>>So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
>>>anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
>>>GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
>>>I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.
>
>    I hope you already have plotted out the positions of the ice comets you
> want...  Survey work like that takes time (lots of it.)  Not to mention the
> travel time between comets if one of them is not enough to refuel your
> fleet. (assume Haley's comet is average - further assume it is 3/4 ice -
> Does anybody know where or how to find out it's mass ??) 
>    For a small fleet one comet should suffice, but then why not bring along
> a tanker?

Excuse me. A comet is a body *kilometers* across. Any fleet that can't
be refueled by several cubic kilometers of ice is *damned* big.

One displacement ton is 14 m^3. One cubic kilometer is 1e9 m^3. That's
over 70 *million* displacement tons. And water ice has a lot more
hydrogen per unit volume than LH2. A cubic meter of water or ice has a
mass of roughly 1 tonne. 1/9th of that is hydrogen. So, one cubic
kilometer of ice is 1e9/9 tons of hydrogen. Or 111 million tons of
Hydrogen. 

How big is your fleet? :-)

And as I said figure 10 km as "average" size for an icy body out there.
Then consider that larger bodies are easier to detect.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:00:16 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade (long)

Moin John Macpherson,

> 	Probably not.  Million-ton ships are not really that much more 
> economical than 20,000Td ships for shipping cargo.  I've done some work 
> on this which I'll post when I can.

	IMHO 600-3000 dt ships will fit best. You'll probately
	need bigger guys for special jobs (e.g. to ship a jump
	drive to a dock where it can be assebled into a 50000 ton
	war ship) Smaller ships are better in handling containers,
	hey why do you think are the so many 999er rock'n'rolers.

> 	If shipping is a competitive business then it won't really matter 
> to the shipper since he'll just be paid per cargo container.  	

	I think that these are two differnt kind of shoes. Shippping
	cargo containers for a per displacement+handling price would
	be fixed inside an economie. But there is always a method to
	make money for a free trader.

	Here is my free trader example from 15 years ago.

	While there is a lot of trade in the north see (mainly 999-3000
	tons) it was posible to start with 1000 DM and a sailboat and
	end up with 18 TDM after 6 weeks of holiday spend in ireland
	sweeden and netherlands. Of couse it was illegal to sell
	whiskey in sweeden and weed in ireland, but it made the most
	profit.

	I also think that we need to make a difference between shipping
	cargo, and buying/selling/speculating. A Jayhawk Trader is designed
	to become bankrott, if it only jumps the main routes and shipping
	cargo. A Jahawk needs a very good Marketing specialist to buy & sell
	marginal goods.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

On 5 Sep 1996 Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

[Comments about species variation and artistic license snipped]
>      Art just ain't like that - it's not a tap that you turn on and off at 
>      will. I thought the pic was quite good, although I agree that Aslan 
>      looks like its mum got up to no good with the Klingon milkman... ;]

Your comments are quite correct, but that last one is the most important 
aspect of the whole argument: the picture is reminiscent of Klingons.  
Since Marc has expressed a desire to make Traveller the third big-time 
sci-fi franchise (along with Star Wars and Star Trek), it is undoubtedly 
very important that none of the Traveller aliens bring to mind Klingons, 
Romulans, Ewoks, or other well-known aliens from those Other 
Franchises(TM). 

That said, you are correct that we probably shouldn't be so particular 
about sticking to previous artistic renderings of Traveller aliens.  
Capturing the spirit is more important.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 05 Sep 96 12:07:30 +1000
Subject: Disciples of the Bright Way

     This chitchat of the effects of J-space on sanity reminds me of a 
     religious group from one of my campaigns a long time ago, (in a galaxy 
     far, far away...)
     
     The *Disciples of the Bright Way* are a sect that believe their deity 
     exists in jumpspace, and communicates directly with people while they 
     are in jump. They call the sight of J-space *The Face of the Deity* 
     and have a secret combination of drugs and meditation practices that 
     reduce (but not eliminate!) the insanity impact of viewing J-space. 
     
     They are generally not dangerous, but their disturbing practice of 
     shooting up drugs and staring out of an open porthole into J-space 
     during the week of a jump means that most captains will refuse to 
     allow them on board under *any* circumstances. 
     
     However, the Disciples will pay an *obscene* amount of money for 
     passage on a ship, and since they don't care about bodily comforts 
     they are quite happy to bunk two to a stateroom under middle passage 
     conditions, and pay up to Cr25,000 each for their 'pilgrimage'. 
     
     The Disciples also own a number of ships that they use for their own 
     *pilgrimages*; these are generally decrepit old Scout/Couriers or Free 
     Traders that have been roughly remodelled to hold dozens of 
     whacked-out weirdos in bunk/flop-house style accommodation. These ships 
have a disturbing number of portholes and viewports...
     
     Adventure ideas: 
     IDEA 1. 
     The PCs are in *dire* need of cash, and take on a number of 
     Disciples. The nutters spend most of the time in jump staring out of 
     the windows. 
     They are little trouble, since they prefer to spend their time 
     drooling and gibbering while they stare out the porthole, but a small 
     proportion of them can have unpredictable mental instabilities (hey, 
     they *are* loonies after all!). While they are not babbling at *The 
     Face of God* (who must get pretty sick of all this after awhile), they 
     will wander the ship, trying to convert the crew and other passengers 
     to their faith; 
     Disciple: "Hey man, have you ever looked out the window while you're 
     in jump? It's really coooollll..."
     Engineer: "You again? Would you just f$#k off!!???"
     D: "Hey, you wouldn't be so uptight if you just took a little 
     peek...hey, is this a window? " 
     E: "Get away from there NOW!" <draws snub pistol and strikes red alert 
button> 
     D: "Oh wow man, I'm going to become a martyr..." 
     
     You get the idea. 
     
     
     IDEA 2. 
     The PCs are trapped on an unpleasant world, or are mercenaries who 
     have need to call on their repatriation bonds, and the only transport 
     available is on a Disciple ship. Refs with a sadistic bent can have *lots* 
of fun with this one. 

          
     IDEA 3. 
     As in 1. or 2., the PCs are desperate enough to link up with the 
     Disciples for a jump. Unfortunately they have fallen into the hands of 
     a breakaway sect that believes in one (or more) of the following: 
     a. Suiciding by leaping out into *The Face of God*. They will leave 
     the PCs alone, but the sight is going to be pretty disturbing. For 
     added pathos, make sure there are plenty of children, pets, old people 
     and the like. 
     b. That since God is J-space, the jump grid is actually preventing 
     them from achieving nirvana. You can guess the rest. ;]
     c. Sacrificing unbelievers to their God. Hilarity follows. This can 
     either be deadly serious, or played like a 60s sitcom. 
     d. They are seeking the promised land, a planet of milk, honey and 
     hallucinogenic drugs, to which their God is about to take them if they 
     only abandon themselves to the Face of God (ie, misjump). They will 
     deliberately try to misjump the ship - be imaginative! 
     
     This last idea should only be played after the PCs have encountered 
     the Disciples a few times, and have come to the conclusion that they 
     are a safe, if annoying, source of plenty of cash. 

     Have fun! 

     

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:15:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

Shadow writes

>I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
>interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
>time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
>gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
>means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
>into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it.
I don't think Traveller fusion power is *that* cheap. (Anyone
ever wworked out what the cost per kw-hour is, by the way?) Vaporising a
million tons of rock to extract the UnObTanium is an awful lot of power;
10^15 joules, maybe - a month's work for a gigawatt fusion plant, which 
costs as much as a small starship. Far cheaper to send the small starship to the
Unobtanium Pits of Alpha Centauri.

There will also be various radioactives that just plain don't 
exist except in young star systems - there are probably planets 
around stars in Orion where you can mine raw Pu238 and Pu239, fresh from the
supernova that triggered the formation of their system, for example. 

Bruce

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Big Guns and Fertilizer!

At 03:21 PM 8/8/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>Give me a Far Trader with a sandcaster and a pulse laser that the gunner
>has to whack with a wrench to get to fire, a jump drive older than the
>combined age of the crew and just as cranky as you'd expect, a cargo hole
>filled with speculative trade goods that cost the crew every credit they
>could scrape together, and a handful of mysterious passengers that you just
>know aren't what they claim to be...ah yes!  Now *that's* a game!
>

Ah.... so when does this PBEM game start? :):):)
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:41:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Excel Spreadsheet

At 03:30 PM 8/13/96 -0500, Mike Basinger wrote:
>I have made a T4 Character sheet in Excel 5.0 for PC/Mac. Would anybody 
>be interested in it. I can post it to ftp.mpgn.com as soon as the ftp 
>archive is on-line again.
>
Send me a copy and let me take a look at it... Thanks! 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 05 Sep 1996 03:38:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

> Massed lines of troups where still used in attack, mainly because of
> conserative leadership and the fact that the best way to overcome strong
> defence was to overwealm it. 

Partly true.  Another reason that 'over-the-top' was used was to force
soldiers to really attack , rather than faking it.  You see, because units
often occupied the same trenches for long periods of time, they developed
informal truces with the opposition.  

I particularly remember the case where a British platoon was nearly hit
outside of 'shooting hours': they retaliated, until a German officer waved a
flag, stood up (unarmed), _apologized_, and said he hoped no one was hurt! 
Apparently a new unit of 'damn Bavarians' had moved up to the Front who
didn't know the rules yet.

There are many documented cases of attacks that always hit the same place at
the same time. When an attack was ordered, men often shot high.  When
everyone had to go over the top (and stragglers were shot) then the officers
knew that the men were really attacking - and the enemy had no choice but to
really defend themselves.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #383
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 5 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 384

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Another error in T4?
         2. Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...
         3. Re: Marine Officers
         4. Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         5. Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures
         6. Re: Miniature Slop
         7. Question about Subsector Maps
         8. Re: Year 0
         9. Re: Big Guns and Fertilizer!
        10. [none]
        11. Re: Drowning
        12. [none]
        13. Re: Marine Officers -- LONG
        14. [none]
        15. Fat trader
        16. Re: Fat trader

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:45:43 -0400
Subject: Another error in T4?

I was looking at the weapon stats and for the Magnum Revolver, the weapon
table gives it a damage rating of 3 but the text about says Damage Rating
10! That seems a bit high. Which one is correct?
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Greetings follow Traveller fans...

Thus spake Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>:

[Political snippage -- at least nobody mentioned Jesse Helms]

> I say, let's throw out democracy and get ourselves an Emperor.  :)  Let's 
> found a world-wide political party dedicated to bringing about a world 
> government based on the Imperium.  Let's see now..what should we call 
> ourselves?  "Millerites" sounds too much like a bunch of people who 
> drink a certain brand of beer.  Hmmm...

How 'bout, um... Feudal Technocrats?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:10:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:14:06 +1000, Darryl Adams wrote:

>This is slightly off topic, but I feel that it needs to be raised.
>
>Warfare is about siezing objectives from the enemy. The way this has been 
>done has changed a lot since the days of the massed cavelry charge. Why?
>
>Technolagy.

Not as much as you might think.. it is still a matter of seizing the high
ground, and engaging the enemy and destroying him by using fire, shock, and
manoeuver.  The tools have changed, but the end result is the same.. the
infantry putting its foot on your chest and planting the flag.

>In the Napolionic era, muskets and cannons where not that accurate, so to 
>achieve the best effect, you grouped them togetther and fire them at once.
>Thus you have large ranks of men and large batteries. Cavelry was seen a 
>shock troops, but in reality where little morr than fart scirmishers.

Artillery still works best en masse, when the fire of dozens of tubes can be
brought to bear on a single target.  The proliferation of ammo types,
especially ICM, reduces the number of tubes overall, but you always have
more enemy than fire missions, so it's always nice to have few extra on call.

I think you underestimate the fear value of having huge bloody animals
charging directly at *you*.  Cavalry has many uses beyond flanking and
skirmishing; recon, courier, raiding the enemy rear, etc.

>In WWI, artillery and personal weapons increased in both accuracy and 
>lethality. 1 squad of machinegunners could wipe out a napolionic line in 
>minutes, while artillery could kill more for less shot (napolionic shot 
>tended to roll on the ground after a while, and their angle of launch was 
>preatty low compared to howitzers and other altillery peaces of WW1). 
>Massed lines of troups where still used in attack, mainly because of 
>conserative leadership and the fact that the best way to overcome strong 
>defence was to overwealm it. The tank was introduced in this piriod, and >
>while not as stunning as it will be in WWII, it still had conciderable 
>impact in terms of "getting there first with the mostest"

WWI was aturning point.. Europe had been mostly at peace for many years, and
the hide-bound General Staffs considered the growing conflict as one more
chance for a little glory.  They had no idea of what was coming.  It is
almost impossible to blame them.  The British hadn't even switched to
*rifles* until 1889.  The German technological advantage kept the war going,
until the Allies came up with countermeasures.

If you want a reason that the war was such a slaughter.. blame the
telephone.  Commanders on both sides set up in comfortable villas miles from
the front, and never saw the frontlines.  Many junior officers who suffered
through this became the fighting generals of WWII. 

>WWII saw a more fluid war that WWI, due to better transport technolagy 
>and better equipment technolagy. The ammount of people you needed in 
>attacks was less than before, as the persoanl and support weapons had 
>improved, but more importantly, the tactical and stradagic thinking had 
>caught up with the technolagy.

The main German advantage was Guerdian's(sp?) brain.  The early German tanks
were vastly inferior to French models, and the French Army was larger than
the Wehrmacht.  What killed France was years of preperation to fight the
last war.  World War II wasn't really more fluid than its predecessors.  A
close look at history shows that with the exception of North Africa, all the
campaigns moved at about the same pace as Napoleon did!

Strategic thinking had to adapt to the new reality during war.  The US
considered the loss of the Pacific battleship fleet to be devastating; until
Coral Sea and Midway showed that sea warfare had changed and that it was a
new game out there.

>In Traveller, a marince SQUAD would bedressed in a battle dress with more 
>punch and defence than a Platoon of M1A2 tanks. Faster too, with 
>augumented exoframes and jump packs. Plasma , laser and battlefield level 
>nukes (grenade size or equivelent).

In my Traveller universe, Marines travel in one platoon Drop Ships, roaming
their assigned subsector, meeting of ships of the Regiment for training
excercises.  This gives a Marine presence in most systems on a near
continous basis.

I draw the line at giving a Naval Ground Force Lt. the keys to any nuclear
aresenal, the are inventive enough on their own.

>The line between tank and attack aircraft (and battleship for that matter)
>is blurred out to wazoo. Comuter and navigaional aids would be at a
persoanl >level, not squad or platoon level as it is today. 

The discussion of where ground and air vehicles merge is complex, but I will
say that my vision of grav tanks look more like attack copters than tanks.
As for the personal aids, we found that the basic infatryman doesn't need
the distractions.. his job is to kill.

>Where in Napolionic wars, the field of battle would be able to be seen 
>with the naked eye, in Traveller , whole contenants would be contested at 
>a tactical level. 

Well, I have to wonder about the "continental level" comment.. Warfare is
about controlling *points*: a harbor, starport, pass, radio center,
whatever..  You could control the United States by controling the frieght
yards in Kansas City and Chicago, and selected highway interchanges.
Congradulations!  You have just cut of the food supply to 85% of the United
States!

>Why am I Saying this : In Year 0 , there is only one kid on the block 
>with Tl12 toys, Sylea. A platoon of marines can and would chew up whole 
>armies at TL4, whole brigades in Tl5-8, and whol regiments at Tl10. 

Remember Murphy!  One of your thousands of of TL4 crossbowmen is going to
get a shot into a visorslit, or a joint, or the airtank regulator..  If you
are facing 16,000 men, a one-in-a-thousand event will hapen 16 times.

I used this to demonstrate why battledress is not a cure all.  I had a
friend build a TL14 squad in battledress, then I built an unarmored company
for the same funds.  All my troops were armed with RAM grenades.  While I
took heavy casulties, my return fire destroyed the squad.

This has BEVER been addressed in traveller (a friend of mine keeps saying 
that in Traveller, you are always refighting WW2). What do you guys think?

You've never played in my games.


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:56:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

You're right - sloppy...  One problem is that no two (or three or so)
manufacturers mean the same thing when they say 25mm.  One means "25mm tall
from bottom of foot to top of hat", another means "25mm... to eyes", and a
third means "25mm... to top of head (wherever that occurs within the
headgear)"  Anyway, I agree... Slop. - Bill

At 01:22 AM 9/4/96 EST, you wrote:
> 
>> Of course, if manufacturers referred to things by scale, they'd be setting
>> themselves up for all sorts of critical examination because everybody could
>> measure the scale the same way...  Merrick earlier mentioned that he
>> dislikes (GW) oversculpted big 25s - I agree.  Aside from the oversculpting,
>> they're not 25s.  If figures were scaled instead of millimetered, GWs "25s",
>> instead of being nominally 1/72nd scale or 1/64th scale, or whatever scale
>> one comes up with based on how one measures figures, would, using a notional
>> six-foot rule, simply be to an entirely different scale.
>
>The thing is that they are refering to it by a scale.  Any 2 25mm
>figures should, within individual human variation, be in the same
>scale.  They aren't.  The people who make 'em are sloppy.  Man, I
>*hate* slop.
>
>[rant off]
>
>I haven't even bought a figure in years (aside from spacecraft minis
>for TNE).  Bashing military figures from models works better, IMO.
>While I see why they don't wanna get into scale arguements, it is
>possible to sculpt good figures.  It is also possible to make good
>resin castings that aren't full of bubbles---it's just that they
>don't bother, and no one cares :-/
>
>Next time you see a resin cast of less than 50 pieces that has *any*
>bubbles in it *and* costs more than $50 (less if it has fewer
>pieces) you are being treated like a sucker.
>
>I'd say retail resin (<25g) stuff should go for ~$2 per piece, no bubbles.
>Unless it's insanely complicated, then ~$3 a piece. ***Resin casting 
>rant off now, as well***
>
>Sorry, I went to the SF/comics/games store and saw some crappy ST resin 
>models today for ~$50 that had 5-6 pieces, none of which would have made 
>it past the trash can in my shop.  Again, I hate slop.
>
>-Merrick
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:56:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: T4 Miniatures

John Cleese couldn't do it.  - Bill

At 08:48 PM 9/4/96 EST, you wrote:
>On 5 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>
>> >So you are saying that the average figure is supposed to be 5'3" tall? 
>> >That's what 25 mm comes to in 1/64th scale.
>> 
>> Sounds about right: my eyes are 5'3" off the ground.
>
>[Silliness mode ON]
>
>A picture just came into my mind: what if /everyone's/ eyes were 5'3" off 
>the ground, regardless of overall height?  :)  
>
>[Silliness mode OFF]
>
>
>-Joe
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Miniature Slop

WRT the Vargr:  C'mon, that's like giving Mongol cav AKs and panzerfausts!
Anachronistic but cool! - Bill

At 08:23 PM 9/4/96 EST, you wrote:
>At 04:35 AM 9/4/96 -0400, Merrick wrote:
>>Man, I *hate* slop.
>
>As a long standing miniature ARMY collector (Modern, Renaissance and
>Ancient, 6, 15 and 25mm), I jave never actually beleived it was slop.  I
>always suspected that it was  a deliberate effort by the major figure
>manufaturers to make sure that for any given army you only bought their
>material -- no matter how good it might look in units from one source,
>incompatable figures never looked good together (unless you were doing
>really hairy barbarians and wanted that "who, us, in the army?" look)
>
>Did have fun with one 15mm traveller Vagre.  His paws were in the right
>position, so I cut out his pistol and gave him a pike.  Put him in the
>middle if the third rank of my Landsknecht. "But he told the captain he was
>from Hungary!"
>Les Howie
>Senior Software Developer
>NovaLIS Technologies
>Halifax NS
>lhowie@novalis.ca
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:15:38 -0400
Subject: Question about Subsector Maps

        This is something I've wondered about for a long time. What is in
the hexes that don't contain mainworlds on a Traveller subsector map? Are
they empty space with no stars? Or are there systems there that simply don't
contain any planets that people would want to colonize? Would any of these
systems, if they exist, have gas giants?
        The reason I ask this is because, if you misjump into the middle of
a rift such as the Abyss Rift, what are your chances of actually being able
to get home?
In year 0, there aren't likely to be any fuel caches lying around. Could you
locate and snare a comet to give you enough fuel for a jump? Why aren't
ships designed with a reserve of enough fuel for a one-parsec jump? Then you
could at least get somewhere if you were one parsec away from a system where
you could refuel.
        Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships that
misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)
                                Allen Shock

------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:09:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Year 0

More on

>What do you feel is going on with Cleon (his goals, coming to power, the way
>the government is set up, etc.)

I have been looking over some of my old CT/MT materials regarding the Sylean
Federation. It was formed in -650 and ruled by a body called the Grand
Senate. The federation had a tightly controlled and centralized government.
Cleon was a Solomani noble born in -57 who headed an industrial consortium.
He obtained behind the scenes control and began his campaign in -30.

Some points of interest:
1) Cleon was an industrialist rather than a soldier.  The canon discusses
how the Imperium grew by exerting economic and political pressure on
backward cultures rather than through conquest.  I tend to agree with John
Macpherson that the Imperium's growth was similar to the American, Russian,
and English experiences rather than Napoleon's, Hitler's, Ghengis Khan's,
Alexander's, Tamberlane's, etc.  These conquering heroes made big names for
themselves, but their empires were ephemeral.  Cleon, like them, wanted to
strike fear in the hearts of men throughout the ages, but was smart enough
not to live or die by the sword.  Smart like Augustus.

2) The nobles and megacorps both have a lot to gain under Cleon.  They get a
free hand in the less centralized Imperium and benefit from the aggressive
expansion.

3)  Cleon could give the nobility, megacorps, navy, and IISS competing roles
in Imperial expansion.  They would then have to turn to him to resolve
disputes over turf on the frontier.  Cleon uses expansionism as a way to
focus the attention of other powerful interests onto each other.  Divide and
conquer.
  
4) The federation had nobles, because Cleon was one.

5) Cleon was a noble involved in big business.  Was that generally the case
in the federation, or did the nobility have its traditional dislike for
those who earn their bread?  Maybe the source of Cleon's power is his
ability to unite the nobility and business interests.  If they are not one
in the same, they would normally be at odds.

6) Cleon has been plotting since -30, about the same time he started
producing fusion+.  If we assume that political systems only change in times
of chaos, the disorders which led to the break down of the federation
probably started before that.  As he has the fusion+ monopoly, Cleon was a
major player from -30 forward.  Perhaps he covertly contributed to
subsequent instability in the federation.  After he is crowned, the
disorders stop and everybody wonders why they did not make him emperor years
ago.

What could cause such disorders?  Some guesses: economic dislocation from
fusion+; a lost war; democratic rebels; anticapitalist rebels (fka
communists); revolts by a minor race; revolts by colonials; Vargr
incursions; a plague from a newly colonized world; a military coup;
inflation from expanding exports; bloody feuds between noble houses; some
costly campaigns on the frontier.

On another note, what happened to Cleon Industries?  Did it pass to the
Lentulis as crown property, or did the holdings remain in Zhunastu hands?
My guess is that it became Sternmetal and went to Cleon II's heirs.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 00:26:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Guns and Fertilizer!

On 09/04/96 at 10:41 PM,  "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net> said:

>At 03:21 PM 8/8/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>Give me a Far Trader with a sandcaster and a pulse laser that the gunner
>>has to whack with a wrench to get to fire, a jump drive older than the
>>combined age of the crew and just as cranky as you'd expect, a cargo hole
>>filled with speculative trade goods that cost the crew every credit they
>>could scrape together, and a handful of mysterious passengers that you jus
>>know aren't what they claim to be...ah yes!  Now *that's* a game!
>>

>Ah.... so when does this PBEM game start? :):):)

Trade! Exploration! Adventure! Coming soon...to a net near you! <g>

Seriously, I plan to start a Travellerisk PBEM on the net sometime late
this year.  I'm getting a Traveller PBEM game going on Fidonet (in the
SF&ANIME_RPG echo) right now, and it'll be 2 or 3 months before I'm ready
to start another.

The net game is going to be based around a Far Trader working along a
mostly unexplored 'main' near the end of the Long Night.  The crew will be
independents scraping out a living with speculative trade, casual passenger
transport, and the occasional contract job.  They will have to content with
pirates both private and government
sponcered, crediters, outdated maps, old equipment, and everything else I
can throw at them.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu,  5 Sep 96 01:22:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Chuck Maddox

> On a related note, does anyone know how copyright law applies to
> works published by defunct companies?  I assume that copyright
> would still be in effect and be retained by the copyright holders
> (ie. IG).

Copyrights (to the best of my decidedly non-legal knowledge) and
trademarks are tangible assets, which can be disposed of however the
company going defunct desires. All trademark and copyright properties
to Traveller went to Marc Miller (AKA Far Future Enterprises), per
GDW's articles of partnership and (later) the by-laws of the
corporation.


Douglas E. Berry

> Normandy, June 6th, 1944:  Overlord, the largest amphibious invasion in
> history happens.  There are no USMC units involved.

Roosevelt (for reasons best known to himself) sent all of the USMC to
the Pacific (with a few exceptions such as the Marines on Iceland)

I always found it odd that _no_ officer involved in Overlord had
been involved in _any_ of the amphibious operations in the Pacific
(none that I know of, anyway). They were two separate wars,
effectively.

Re Scales: In the good old days, before proportional scales came
along, figures were measured from the eyes to the ground, i.e., 30mm
was 30mm eyes to ground, to minimize the effect of any headgear --
the problem was, not all manufacturers did this, some just did shoes
to top of hat = 30mm or 54mm or whatever. While there is general
agreement that 25mm = 1/76, etc. there are no hard and fast standards
(like in model railroading and model aircraft. With minis, you have to
know that Minifigs (for example) produces "large" 15s (anybody here
old enough to remember the Scruby 9mm figures...the ones that were
really 12mms?

David Jaques-Watson

4.	THE IMPERIUM = ROME

> The more I find out, the closer this seems to be...

There is a very good reason for this...as I have mentioned on this
list many times before.

> Naturally, there was always the Roman governor at the top (eg.
Pontius Pilate),

Ummm...actually, Pilate was a Praetor, as I recall...there is a
technical distinction...carry on...

> but the original local rulers were allowed a limited jurisdiction

Ummm sometimes, sometimes not...The Roman's real secret, IMHO, was to
subvert the local bigwigs over to the Roman side by various means. If
the locals were co-operative, they stayed on and prospered. If not,
they ended up like Queen Zenobia (extra points if you can name her
husband).

> local law prevailed.

Again, sometimes, sometimes not. There were a lot of local
regulations, free allied cities, client states, and so on.

> The Trav hook? Local law levels, rules, etc. Remain in place when a planet
> joins the Imperium. In fact, the imperium is even more laissez-faire about
> this than Rome was.

Pretty much _my_ opinion also...

Leonard:
> The real problem is that for the most part the manufacturers *don't*
> use a uniform scale. If they did, then you could complain about the
> scale of the figures being off.

Yep. Pretty much.

Daryl Adams:

> This has BEVER been addressed in traveller (a friend of mine keeps
> saying that in Traveller, you are always refighting WW2). What do
> you guys think?

I thought we covered the answer to this problem (albeit indirectly) in
Mercenary.

  Loren Wiseman


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:20:40 PST
Subject: Re: Drowning

In mail you write:

> Glenn said:
>
>>He had never drowned, but had studied it and had talked with other divers
>>who had drowned.
>
> Did my concentration on this fascinating topic slip or
> something?  What did I miss.
>
> Are we talking about curious time-travel effects here or just
> plain seances?
>
>>A professional diver who was a neighbor of mine once said
>>that drowning wasn't that bad an experience
>
> Ah!  So this is some strange new definition of the word
> 'drowning' that I wasn't previously aware of.

It's like being hung (the "tie a rope around your neck and haul you up"
type not the "drop you to the end of the rope" type). It's only fatal
if nobody does anything within the next 5 minutes or so.

"Death by drowning" does not inevitably follow "drowning".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu,  5 Sep 96 03:31:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Leonard Erikson (Responding to a question):
>> Is there any _real_ info on decompression survivability?
>
>Yep. The sci.space FAQ gives some references. There were a lot of
>experiments with chimps, and a couple of accidental exposures of humans
>to fairly hard vacuum (accidents in the *big* vacuum chambers at places
> like Wright-Patterson).

Jerry Pournelle says he (and by implication, others) underwent
voluntary decompression some years ago. Doesn't say if it was to hard
vacuum, doesn't say how long. He did say he wouldn't do it again.

Another question: My files are inaccessible to me right now, can some
kind soul supply me with any HIWG/Imperial Atlas/Other Canon data on
Lentuli subsector, and the sector in which Lentuli is located? I may
not need all of the numbers, but I do need to know if such exists.

  Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:51:23 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

In mail you write:

> The disparity of which you speak _was_ addressed in _Striker_ and
> _Striker II_. Low-tech armies get ground into sausage against
> high-tech armies in combat. The challenge for the low-tech guys is to
> find a way to win -- to deny the enemy the means to wage war -- that
> does not involve human-wave assaults, etc.

Anyone who thinks that high-tech vs low-tech means an automatic win for
the high tech folks is either assuming overwhelming numerical
superiority. or *really* dumb low-techs.

Against *intelligent* low-techs, the high-tech had better be *very*
good, or else they'll get handed their heads on a platter.

Luckily for most forces, brains aren't terribly common at any tech
level.

If folks are actually interested, I can describe some historical
techniques that would give even TL-15 forces a nasty surprise or two.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 09:36:25 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED  : traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
FROM : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
DATE 5.9.96
SUBJECT : aslan and turkish

My apologies, I deleted too hastily the name of who wrote
this.
>     PS a couple of months ago there was a discussion about the origin of
>     the word 'Aslan'. I can confirm that the word is Turkish for 'lion'
>     (but in Turkish it seems to be pronounced more like "uslun", at least
>     the way we Aussies would say it); so does that mean it is 'canon' that
>     a Turkish Solomani explorer first encountered the Aslan?


Having asked the original question, I could take a stab at
this.

MWM says he took the name from C.S.Lewis  (In the Chronicles
of Narnia, Lewis has a allegorical Jesus Christ in the form
of a lion called Aslan).

Lewis would appear to taken the name from the Turkish word.
(I have no direct evidence for this but given his friendship
with Tolkien and Tolkien's love for language, it makes a lot
of sense).

While it would make a lot sense for the name to have
originated with a Turkish Solomani explorer and might well be
'true', I have been unable to find any Traveller source
(unless it is in TNE material) that suggests this is the case.

Perhaps someone would like to write a scenario outlining the
'first contact'.  Anybody know off hand *when* it was?

Timothy Collinson
"One day I'll learn to keep the books at work."





------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:42:32 -0400
Subject: Fat trader

Does anybody have the stats for the Fat Trader listed in TNE.  They 
have that as a ship available under mustering out but no stats.  I 
think I have seen them in CT but not TNE.  If someone has these, 
please send them to me.

Clint


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:41:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Fat trader

Clint Fishback wrote:
> 
> Does anybody have the stats for the Fat Trader listed in TNE.  They
> have that as a ship available under mustering out but no stats.  I
> think I have seen them in CT but not TNE.  If someone has these,
> please send them to me.
> 
> Clint

If you've got the basic TNE book the Fat Trader is listed in the 
starships in the rear as the Subsidized Merchant.  Same ship different 
name.  Course if I hadn't seen deckplans for the Fat Trader and the 
Subsidized merchant I'd never have reallized that.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #384
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 5 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 385

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
         2. Re: Marine Officers -- LONG
         3. Re: Thoughts on trade
         4. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
         5. Re: IG's aslan warrior (LONG RANT)
         6. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
         7. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
         8. Re: Fat trader
         9. Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)
        10. Re: Hanging on the Hull
        11. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
        12. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
        13. Re: Marine Officers
        14. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
        15. Re: Marines v. Army

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:53:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>      This is something I've wondered about for a long time. What is in
>the hexes that don't contain mainworlds on a Traveller subsector map? 
>Are they empty space with no stars? Or are there systems there that 
>simply don't contain any planets that people would want to colonize? 
>Would any of these systems, if they exist, have gas giants?

I beleive, and I don't think anyone will argue me on this point, that 
blank hexs are nothing but the big black.  Mile after mile after mile of 
nothing.

>     The reason I ask this is because, if you misjump into the middle of
>a rift such as the Abyss Rift, what are your chances of actually being 
>able to get home?

If you misjump into the middle of the Abyss Rift and you don't have 
enough fuel left for a calcuated misjump back from whence you came you 
are SOL, screwed in the biggest sence of the word etc etc etc...

>In year 0, there aren't likely to be any fuel caches lying around. Could 
>you locate and snare a comet to give you enough fuel for a jump? Why 
>aren't ships designed with a reserve of enough fuel for a one-parsec 
>jump? Then you could at least get somewhere if you were one parsec away 
>from a system where you could refuel.

You could do the comet thing if you could find one, they don't call it 
space for nothing, there's a lot of it out there.  You thing you feel 
insignificant laying on your back in a Sackastchewan field in the middle 
of the night, wait till you step out the airlock in the middle of the 
Abyss Rift.

Ships could be designed with a 1 parsec reserve, infact ships with heplar 
already have this potential built in, with grav-thrusters you're in a bit 
more of a problem.  Designing a 1 jump reserve is a bit of a contentious 
issue, sure it's a safety thing but that's a lot of cargo space you're 
loosing just for the sake of being safe and given the low frequency of 
misjumps I don't thing anyone really cares.  'Tis like getting on a 
plane,  plane crashes and misjumps always happen to other people.

>     Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships that
>misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)

Again, potentially, you'd have to find them first of course.  And you've 
to a really big feild and just a single blade of grass to locate.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: William A Humphrey <wh2a+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu,  5 Sep 1996 10:36:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

Excerpts from Traveller: 4-Sep-96 Re: Marine Officers -- LONG by Leonard
Erickson@krypton 
> If folks are actually interested, I can describe some historical
> techniques that would give even TL-15 forces a nasty surprise or two.

Yes, Yes!  One of my groups had a decidely mercenary bent.  They also
thought that if they stocked up on all the best high-tech goodies, they
were invincible.  One of the most effective traps was the good,
old-fashioned man-made rockslide.  (Boy, were those guys full of
themselves!)
- --
                                            Bill H
"Only one...has survived battle with [us].  He is behind me; you are in 
front of me.  If you value your lives, be somewhere else!"
                                                    - Ambassador Delenn 

------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:43:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

Leonard, 

On this point, I'll disagree with you. Commodity trading will still be common,
especially (and possibly only) agricultural commodities. True, with fusion, 
water and elements are fairly easily obtainable, but that still doesn't mean it will
be cheap to produce ag products in some places. Also, I suspect that many companies
will use basic comodities for production, after ship crews and mining colonies need 
to eat. Also, as planets experience cyclical weather patterns, they may be an exporter
one year and an importer ten years later. Also, raiders and war, especially a logistical
war will be very hard on basic productions, resulting in the need for commodities. 

For example The Federation of Flom and the Dominion of Sludge are at war. The Flommites
get a good shot in and destroy not only the orbital shipyards, but the central 
processing facilities in the astroid belt. Until that production facility is restored, 
the Sludgies will be importing commodities (at a premium price).

If in response, the Sludgies manage a high-v rock drop on the the Flommites, the 
Flommites will be shipping basic food supplies in, until the climate stablizes and
"the dust settles":)

Also, if this is a post collapse universe you are using, many planets may have lost fusion
and be system bound or travelling on purchased packets (e.g. I can buy and operate a car, 
but I couldn't build an engine to save my life) and not have access to the capital equipment
to run such an operation as you refer to, whereas Joe Merchant can run his monster carrier
in once a year and under-cut all the local boys. Will Joe be selling tech as well? I doubt
it.


Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris

HomeBrew - If it's a hobby, it's not a problem!

 


Leonard Erickson types:
> 
> I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
> interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
> time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
> gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
> means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
> into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it. And you'll
> get similar amounts of the other "rare" elements. Plus lots and lots of
> oxygen, silicon, titanium, aluminum, etc. 
> 
> This has all sorts of consequences. Most don't break canon. The only
> real "break" is the lack of a commodities trade in raw materials. And
> given the fact that all the trade systems so far are broken to one
> degree or another, I don''t think it's that big a deal.
> 
> But among other things, this means that one of the *cheapest* materials
> is quartz glass (silicon dioxide). It'd be the primary output of of an
> extractor (actually, it'd be silicon and oxygen in plasma states, but
> it's easy to combine them). Aluminum is the cheapest metal, with
> titanium not that much more expensive. Iron is less abundant, so it'll
> cost nore. But it'll still be cheap.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 05 Sep 96 10:57:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

- --- Susan  queried:
>     Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships that
>misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)

 to which Derek responded
Again, potentially, you'd have to find them first of course.  And you've 
to a really big feild and just a single blade of grass to locate.
- --- end of quoted material ---
ah, but a big, greasy, metallic blade of grass. I like her idea: it would imply
that there might have to be a sufficiently large database of 'missing' ships
with projected paths, etc etc to make it feasible,and theres also the 'icky'
factor of coming upon lots of lonely corpsicles in all those ships.....

- -j

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: IG's aslan warrior (LONG RANT)

In response to Michael Barry;

* Different subspecies of Aslan;  1) the canon never mentions it. :)


 If you compare them to Homo Sapiens, then the only variations you
are 

 likely to see are height/skin/fur/eye color/skin surface area/fat...


 The Aslans have been in space for a very short time, much too short 

 for subspecies to devellop in isolated areas.  Also there are 

probably  behavioristic reasons for a certain degree of similarity 

 between the Aslans; they live in clans and looking like the rest of 

 the members of your clan is an important thing.  Now, maybe all that


 this means is that the clans don't look like each other. :) 

  

       And about artistic license: It's fine with me as long as the 

 artist is being creative.  As far as I can see, in this case the 

artist wasn't creative at all!  He merely stuck fur and makeup on a 

 guy.  And what would you think if an artist used his 'artistic
license' 
 to color a  

 Stormtrooper purple with pink dots for a Star Wars movie? 

Consistency  is one of the main tenet of creating a gaming
universe... 

 If I don't want consistency, I'll go play Rifts. :)  

  

       Marc Miller has stated it in his presentation of T4: 

Travelle r is based on Science, both soft and hard.  Meaning that 

consi stency IS important to his gaming universe.  Meaning that the 

 artist SHOULD have examined the bone/muscle structure of the aslan 

 "model" (all real artists are trained to do that).  Where he COULD 

hav e been creative (and failed - it's not the same thing as not
being 

 consistent, Not being consistent means everybody hates your picture,


 not being creative means that nobody notices it) is in the aslan's 

 clothing and weaponry.  He SHOULD have been dressed in the aslan 

equiv alent of medieval clothes.  HE was dressed in a klingon suit. 

  

 Where are the exotic jewelry and ornaments?  The thigh bones of wild


 carnivores?  The funky helmets that prop the mane straight up?  

 Tail-bells?  DGP's aslan module has a section dedicated to Aslan 

 clothing.  They say "tasteful and subtle".  Those 2 spikes on the 

 elbows of that aslan are definitely not SUBTLE. :)  Maybe he's 

 an aslan assassin though. :) (though they claim he's a warrior) 

  
Anyways - that's just my not-so-humble opinion. :)  If *I* could
 draw, I would, and send that in to IG. :)  But I can't so I'll
 just rant about it. :)
 
 Here's a short rundown of what I'd like to see on an 

 aslan warrior:  hard-soled boots, baggy embroidered pants, covered 

 by a knee-length white 'kilt' (just a front and back panel, no
sides, 

 and pleated).  On his belt, he wears a soberly colored pouch, easy
to 

 reach in case the warrior is mortally wounded and wants to give 

himsel t the 'extreme unction'.   The pouch has a thick protective  

 metal plate with gems and hieroglyphs of the name of his
forefathers. 

  

 The aslan's stomach area is covered only by lose bands of clothing, 

 usually unarmored.  His chest is covered with a thick armor plate, 

 with big, striking blasons of his family and clan.  The back is 

 covered in the same manner.  Under this armor is worn a baggy shirt 

 or the same bands-like clothing as on the tummy.  Over it all is 

 occasionally worn a long tabard (not sure if this is hte right name,


 it's a long rectangular piece from the neck to the ankles) with  

 more insignias.  Usually worn by officers and leaders.  Softly 

 contoured leather wristbands or cuffs are ever-present and can
double 

 as 'pockets'.   (oh, btw the tabard doesn't have to be symmetrical).


 Shoulder armor when worn is curved and sloping downwards.  Headgear,


 when worn, should leave the ears free and emphasise the mane.  I'm 

 thinking of a variant of the samurai helmet with 'wings' that hold 

 the mane up.  That would look kinda scary. :)  Gloves have a  

 slit for the dewclaw.   Sometimes warriors will go as far as tinting


 their fur with bright/fluo markings.   

  

 In any and all case, the most important piece of equipment will be 

 the aslan's weapons.  Exquisitely decorated, ornate, and deadly. 

 I suppose a katana or ninja-to IS a human's idea of that kind of 

 weaponry... :) It should look too unwieldy for human hands.
 
 Basic wearponry for a warrior would probably be something like
 an Akhaeh, a khaihte on the wristbands or takhestah, and a 
 yeheal or trolitakheal depending on the tech level.  Modern
 aslans would probably wear a knife as their biggest blade weapon,
 more 'medieval' aslans might wear actual swords.  Basically, 
 adapt the guidelines above according to materials and technology.
 
 Micahel Vilardi's aslan pictures are just incredible. :) 

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:11:17 -0700
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
>    Has anybody considered the possibility that there may be different 
>    subspecies of Aslan?

This sound like an excuse for either an illustrator who didn't do their
homework or ,as I suspect after hearing about the quality of the equipment
illustrations in T4, more likely a company that failed to provide sufficient
guidance and/or resource material to the illustrator.

>    Perhaps we should be a bit less worried about 'canon' graphics, since 
>    different artists are of course going to have different styles. Ever 
>    heard of artistic license? I guarantee that no *real* artist would 
>    want to work for IG if they kept on saying "Oh, no no no! Aslan don't 
>    look like that,  . . .

Well, I'm not sure how it works *real* artist, but this is pretty much the
way it is for *real* illustrators.  Art directors are always asking for
changes in artwork and any illustrator that is unwilling to accommodate them
will very quickly find themselves not working.

>    Art just ain't like that - it's not a tap that you turn on and off at 
>   will  

This is one of the things that make illustrating hard.  Sometime you have to
produce even when the tap is off.  This is what make a *real* illustrator.

Ashe Marler's Aslan concept sketch is very well done and I look forward to
seeing Marler's work in future Traveller products.  However,  the character
in the concept sketch does look like more like a member of "Cats", as
someone else mention, than an Aslan. Actually it looks like Arnold
Schwarzenegger starring in "Cats".

Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:44:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

Interesting point.  Sounds like an opportunity for a deep space encounter
table that would include transient objects (comets, hulks, rock chunks,
etc.) as well as the random, rare, permanent object (dead system, etc.)  - Bill

At 12:50 AM 9/5/96 EST, you wrote:
>        This is something I've wondered about for a long time. What is in
>the hexes that don't contain mainworlds on a Traveller subsector map? Are
>they empty space with no stars? Or are there systems there that simply don't
>contain any planets that people would want to colonize? Would any of these
>systems, if they exist, have gas giants?
>        The reason I ask this is because, if you misjump into the middle of
>a rift such as the Abyss Rift, what are your chances of actually being able
>to get home?
>In year 0, there aren't likely to be any fuel caches lying around. Could you
>locate and snare a comet to give you enough fuel for a jump? Why aren't
>ships designed with a reserve of enough fuel for a one-parsec jump? Then you
>could at least get somewhere if you were one parsec away from a system where
>you could refuel.
>        Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships that
>misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)
>                                Allen Shock
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:29:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Fat trader

On  5 Sep 96 at 8:42, Clint Fishback spewed:

> Does anybody have the stats for the Fat Trader listed in TNE.  They
> have that as a ship available under mustering out but no stats.  I
> think I have seen them in CT but not TNE.  If someone has these,
> please send them to me.

Fat Trader is the slang for Subsidized Merchant.  There are definitely 
TNE stats for it in the back of the TNE book...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:29:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)

On  4 Sep 96 at 11:35, Rich Ostorero spewed:

> Weakest of all or the weakest of the Jack Ryan books? I think _Red
> Storm Rising_ is the weakest fiction he's written (but, keep in mind
> that a bad TC beats the divine snot out of the best of the rest).

Couldn't disagree with you more...  OK, the romance portions of the 
novel on Iceland are awkward, but this was a great WW3 scenario (at 
least when USSR vs. NATO scenarios were somewhat plausible) that even 
my wife got into.  However, as a romance novelist, Clancy is a great 
author of technothrillers.  BTW, Red Storm Rising is NOT a Jack Ryan 
novel, which your last paragraph would seem to imply...

His worst:  Excluding Op Center, which he doesn't really write...
Patriot Games...  How ridiculous does it look to portray the Prince & 
Princess of Wales as having a healthy, normal relationship 
now...frankly, it even looked silly then.  Clancy is best when he writes 
hard fiction, and is frankly an awkward writer at best about relationships...
which he spends way too much time doing in Patriot Games...

His Best:  Personal opinion is that he's going to have a hard time 
topping The Sum of All Fears again in a future novel.  I thought Red October 
was his best until I read SOAF...

And just what the heck does this thread have to do with Traveller, 
btw... :-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:35:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Hanging on the Hull

>What you felt (unless you were wearing a *very* advanced vac suit): extreme
>discomfort as you were living in a vac suit for a week or so:

I make no assuption that I will have to hang onto the hull for the whole
trip. Rather lets assume that I will make it to an air lock if I survive the
surge through the grid. I was curious what folks thought it might look like
when the grid received its power and the hole to jump space was ripped open.

Also no one commented on attachments to the hull that aren't wired into the
grid. How about the jump bubble? Do you think it follows all the nooks and
crannies of an irregular shaped hull?

_______________________________________________________________________________
								      TRAVELLER
			          Science Fiction Roleplaying in the Far Future


------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:45:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> Susan M. Shock wrote:
> >
> >      This is something I've wondered about for a long time. What is in
> >the hexes that don't contain mainworlds on a Traveller subsector map?
> >Are they empty space with no stars? Or are there systems there that
> >simply don't contain any planets that people would want to colonize?
> >Would any of these systems, if they exist, have gas giants?
> 
> I beleive, and I don't think anyone will argue me on this point, that
> blank hexs are nothing but the big black.  Mile after mile after mile of
> nothing.

Actually, I think I will argue this point, considering the fact that the 
Galaxy is a three-dimensional structure, and the Traveller abstraction of 
one Hex represents a column of space several light-years tall (well, 
thats the way *I* interpret the hex, one could also argue that the hex 
system is just a J-space representation of N-space, meaning comparing 
N-space distances on a subsector map is, well, silly)

My opinion is that Hexes *could* contain rogue comets, stars with no 
solar system, stars with nascent systems with no large solid bodies, 
brown dwarfs (source of the dark matter cosmologists wrangle about, I 
imagine them as sorta like rogue gas giants, stars that haven't lit up 
yet) or any number of things.

That much space is unlikely to be really empty, the problem is that there 
is so much space between all the cool stuff there. How long would it take 
to travel from one side of the hex to the other with M-Drives? Well, in a 
case such as this relatavistic effects would need to be accounted 
for...suffice it to say it would be a long time, probably longer than the 
standard year Power Plants are charged for, and certainly longer than 
life support would last. (I've always assumed, that for most commercial 
vessels, you must pay for 2 weeks of life support before jumping for each 
passenger, this is canon isn't it? I'm sure I've read it somewhere...so 
what is the maximum that one could stretch life support? And the maximum 
time that you could "stock up on" before jumping?)

> >     The reason I ask this is because, if you misjump into the middle of
> >a rift such as the Abyss Rift, what are your chances of actually being
> >able to get home?
> 
> If you misjump into the middle of the Abyss Rift and you don't have
> enough fuel left for a calcuated misjump back from whence you came you
> are SOL, screwed in the biggest sence of the word etc etc etc...

In most cases I would agree. BUT...my take on jump drives is that you 
*require* 
a large mass in n-space in order to exit jump space. It is for this 
reason that you must exit outside of 100 dia. of a body. You need the 
mass, but you can't be too close. There was an article about Jump Points, 
etc. in one of the old JTAS magazines, #15 I think?

The problem is, is that body a star? If so, yer screwed. If it is a large 
rogue comet or a brown dwarf, it's your lucky day.

> You could do the comet thing if you could find one, they don't call it
> space for nothing, there's a lot of it out there.  You thing you feel
> insignificant laying on your back in a Sackastchewan field in the middle
> of the night, wait till you step out the airlock in the middle of the
> Abyss Rift.

Being a born Saskatchewanian, I relate.

<stuff deleted>
> >     Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships that
> >misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)
> 
> Again, potentially, you'd have to find them first of course.  And you've
> to a really big feild and just a single blade of grass to locate.

Again, I would agree. The difficulty is really in finding any misjumped 
vessels, should they exist. Do you know what the EM signature of a 
derelict ship is? I can guess that it's as close to zero as any stealth 
equipped ship. And your chances of finding it are infinitesimal--you 
probably don't own enough dice to roll for them chances.

Glenn Hoppe
- -----------
No sig yet - Watch this space

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:15:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

On  5 Sep 96 at 10:57, Jeffery M. Miller spewed:

> --- Susan  queried:
> >     Are these empty hexes littered with the hulls of old ships
> >     that
> >misjumped and couldn't get home? (Salvage oppurtunity!)
> 
>  to which Derek responded
> Again, potentially, you'd have to find them first of course.  And
> you've to a really big feild and just a single blade of grass to
> locate. --- end of quoted material --- ah, but a big, greasy,
> metallic blade of grass. I like her idea: it would imply that there
> might have to be a sufficiently large database of 'missing' ships
> with projected paths, etc etc to make it feasible,and theres also
> the 'icky' factor of coming upon lots of lonely corpsicles in all
> those ships.....

Of course, since the most likely reason you're going to find a 
derelict in deep space is the result of a misjump.  The equivalent of 
searching the sealanes really wouldn't apply, since a misjump 
necessarily would be the equivalent on a transatlantic Europe-US trip 
and crash landing in Antarctica...  and the Antarctica in question is 
uncharted, and several orders of magnitude bigger.  

I'd suspect you'd have more luck searching for derelict ships in some 
of the backwater systems...

Stu


> 
> -j
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:46:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> I draw the line at giving a Naval Ground Force Lt. the keys to any nuclear
> aresenal, the are inventive enough on their own.

  This is contrary to the philosophy of the Imperial marines.

  Take a look at the Imperial Marine APC. As early as Striker (the
original, not II) or even book 4 - the APC has *one* main weapon (a
rapid-pulse fusion gun) and several *nuclear* tac missiles.

  This is expanded upon in the Regency Equipment Guide: The APC is
nick-named "the big stick". 

  "It is no accident that the vehicle has no low-lethality secondary
weapons. It literally has no ability to respond to provocation while
limiting damage, for that is not it's job.
  "The fact that it is entirely armed with nuclear tac missiles and a
fusion gun was well-advertised and the message was clear: when the Marines
arrive, the party is over, and no half-measures will be taken."

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:54:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

> Fire-shock tactics 101. 
> Heavy cavalry's days as shock troops were numbered in the 13th Century. References: 
> Augincourt -- Cav vs. longbow. Mortgarten: cavalry vs. Swiss pikes.
	Don't forget Bannockburn!  The Scots defeated the flower of 
European chivalry with their long spears and Schiltron formations long 
before either of the battles you mention.  Bannockburn was 1314 
while Agincourt wasn't until 100 years later in 1415.
	No Trav connection, just a little Scottish pride. :-)

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:59:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Marines v. Army

> From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
> Date: 05 Sep 96 10:48:10 +1000
> Subject: Marines v. Army
> 
>      The only Marines we have in Australia are the ones guarding the US 
>      Embassy here in Canberra. They look like big mean dudes with a chronic 
>      hair deficiency. Except for the palms of their hands (stop it or 
>      you'll go blind!)

Are you sure they're big?  I've noticed a tendency for jarheads to be
smaller of stature than average.  Maybe overcoming an inferiority
complex?  (Ducking behind 4 cm of HY80 steel hull! <g> )

>      
>      Anyway, on the subject of officers...the best officers I have known 
>      have been enlisted men who have then gone to officer school. T4 needs 

Yeah, but also some of the worst - no middle ground here!  The good ones
remember what being enlisted was about; the bad ones think they were
always to good for the ranks anyway.

>      a negative survival DM in the first term for *schoolboy officers* that 

yep.

>      come out of military academy knowing f&^$ all about anything, thinking 
>      they deserve some kind of adulation for learning to iron, spit polish 
>      boots and talk like a boarding school prefect. 
>      
>      Worthless pack of oxygen thieves, the lot of them. Perhaps there 
>      should be a separate roll for *one of your corporals grabs you and 
>      bashes the bejeezuys out of you because you're such a jacked-up little 
>      &#%k*. Not I had anything to do with such an incident in Townsville, 
> Queensland a number of years ago...  :o  <protesting innocence> 

Now don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. ;-)

>      
>      Military academies don't produce many good officers; it's the 
>      *battalions* 

or the fleet!

>(specifically platoon sergeants) that make good officers 
>      out of the *very ordinary* raw materials produced by the military 
> academies. I suggest that enlisted soldiers/marines/spacers get the chance to 
> enter military/naval academy, with bonuses on their success roll for INT, terms 
> of service and combat experience. *Real* soldiers don't have too many problems 
> with officer training, except for some of the classroom stuff! 

One issue with this: the ex grunt/swabbie with field/fleet experience
may not be ready to play the academy head games.  A shipmate of mine
went enlisted USN Nuc, which proves his academic ability, then after
about 2 years fleet time got an appointment to the Navy Academy.  

He was in a pre-school indotrination program where they make sure your
academics are up to snuff and treat you like your plebe year.  Well,
with a bit of fleet time and attitude, being treated like the scum on
the underside of whale s--t by college sophomores with _zero_ real world
expereience didn't go over too well.  Let's just call it personal
incompatability.

Fortunately, there were some good people in charge of the program. 
Rather than blackballing him as an attitude case, they officially
dropped him from the program for 'academic deficiencies', which
thoretically means he couln't hack the scholastic load - definitely not
the case.  No adverse marks on his records and no damage to his
carreer.  Rather decent of them, actually.

Point being that, in many cases, OCS or ROTC (yeah, send the boy or girl
to college) might be the better option.  Or maybe a Limited Duty Officer
(LDO) program like the USN has, where with significant enlisted
experience you can get a commission without a degree, although
advancement and type of assignment are limited.  Of course, making some
of these ideas playable is another issue. :-)


>      
>      You might also want to consider using the British Commonwealth system of 
>      military ranks for armies on some worlds, just to give a different 
>      flavour. Officer ranks are pretty much as in the US Army, but enlisted 
>      ranks (ORs) are a bit different, particularly at the higher NCO ranks: 
[snip example]

This I _like_!  If someone were to come up with a matrix of various
ranking systems across various services/nationalities, it could be a
very handy tool.

>      PS Army 3, Marines 2 

And the Navy in the bleachers, letting the Marines do the light work. 
Not that the Army is any threat to the Marines, except maybe just from
sheer numbers.

:-)

	Matt McL

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #385
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 5 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 386

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Aslan Warrior Graphic.
         2. Loren's request
         3. Re: Hanging on the hull.
         4. Bounty Hunters
         5. Deck Plans Rights
         6. Re: Year 0
         7. Aslan subspecies
         8. Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)
         9. News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site
        10. Radioactivity
        11. Starship Safety Devices
        12. Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...
        13. RE: News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site 
        14. Re: Marine Officers
        15. Re: Starship Safety Devices
        16. Looking for Traveller Players in Dallas, Texas area
        17. T4: Making Clancy Relevant
        18. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
        19. Re: Another error in T4?
        20. Re: Marines v. Army
        21. Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:08:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan Warrior Graphic.

Wait! Wait!  I know why they changed the Aslans' look.  The old Aslan
would be too difficult to do with prosthetic make-up!  This one is easier
for the special effects guys currently working on Traveller: The Movie.
Yeah, yeah, that's it!  :-)

Wait until you see the Vargr picture with knees that go _forward_, then
you'll know I'm right!  :-)

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:16:48 -0400
Subject: Loren's request

>Another question: My files are inaccessible to me right now, can some
>kind soul supply me with any HIWG/Imperial Atlas/Other Canon data on
>Lentuli subsector, and the sector in which Lentuli is located? I may
>not need all of the numbers, but I do need to know if such exists.
>
>  Loren Wiseman
        Hmmm...does this mean that Loren is working on something for
publication? :)

        I'm sending you a copy of the Core sector data. That's the closest I
can get, since I've never found an IBM program out there that can dice those
sector files up into their component subsectors. However, I noticed
something when comparing the sector file to the Core Subsector in the back
of T4; Capital/Sylea's UWP was the same except for tech level. Everything
else was completely different.
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:36:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hanging on the hull.

Someone asked about how strapped-on objects would get through jump.  The
answer (IMHO) is that they must have a jump grid incorporated in them.
Drop tanks would have a grip which "plugs into" the ship's grid.  Things
like jump bubbles and jump nets would have grids running through them and
would similarly hook into the ship's grid.

Regarding people hanging onto the hull, I figure if you survive entry into
jump space (and my intuition is that the jump field would protect you),
you'd be okay long enough to get into an air lock.  There are a couple of
difficulties to overcome, however.  One is actually hanging on.  Depending
at what rate the ship is accelerating, this might be difficult.  The
other, as someone mentioned, is the power going through the jump grid.  I
think if you were careful not to touch grid lines of opposite charge (or
whatever) then you'd be okay (say Difficult, Int, Dex, Engineering?).
You'd also have to be very careful to start directly at the hull and not
look into jump space.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 17:04:58 UT
Subject: Bounty Hunters

What kind of requirements might the Imperium impose on characters wishing to 
be bounty hunters?  Is there any licensing requirements or do they just bring 
in the bad guys and walk away with a check?  If licensing is required, then 
who regulates/enforces it?

So far, nearly every one of my players has talked about being a bounty hunter, 
but no one has pursued it -- but I'd like to have a better idea when that 
situation arises.

I'd like to hear any other input from ref's and players who have played a 
bounty hunter in the past as well.  Thanks.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:52:55 -0500
Subject: Deck Plans Rights

When it comes to standard deck plans such as the Type S, do I have to
get permission somewhere to stick it on a web page, or do I just
acknowledge source?  I've seen a number out there, so I was wondering.

And yes, I'm working at kludging together a Traveller web page.  A bit
of practice, if nothing else.

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:05:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Year 0

Sam Draper said:
> 2) The nobles and megacorps both have a lot to gain under Cleon.  They get a
> free hand in the less centralized Imperium and benefit from the aggressive
> expansion.

	Yes and no, part of the popular appeal of the Imperium may have 
been as a vehicle for controlling the megacorps.  Cleon probably spoke 
out of both sides of his mouth on this one, giving the people populist 
rhetoric while telling the 'corps "don't worry, I'm one of you."  The 
realities of power being what they are, once he ascended to the throne he 
probably did exert his control over the 'corps, or subverted them to his 
aims.
 
> 3)  Cleon could give the nobility, megacorps, navy, and IISS competing roles
> in Imperial expansion.  They would then have to turn to him to resolve
> disputes over turf on the frontier.  Cleon uses expansionism as a way to
> focus the attention of other powerful interests onto each other.  Divide and
> conquer.

	And by forcing them all to come to him he increases his power and 
options.  FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt for the non-yanks) is said to 
have played his aides and secretaries off against each other very 
skillfully this way.

> 5) Cleon was a noble involved in big business.  Was that generally the case
> in the federation, or did the nobility have its traditional dislike for
> those who earn their bread?  Maybe the source of Cleon's power is his
> ability to unite the nobility and business interests.  If they are not one
> in the same, they would normally be at odds.

	I think that nobles would be involved in business, at least the
younger sons, because of the "honor" factor that MM describes as being an
important part of Year 0.  Running an interstellar corporation requires a
great deal of trust that subordinates a subsector or whole sector away
will carry out your orders faithfully.  This makes a good reputation a key
to advancement.  Because of their position and visibility, nobles are
likely to jealously guard their reputation.  A "commoner" might be tempted
to "take the money and run" because he could always disappear into the
frontier and change his identity.  Ex-military officers would be another
good source of executives because of their experience and their investment
in a reputation. 
	When it comes to reputation, the longer a bad one sticks with you,
and the greater the benefits of maintaining a good one, the more jealously
people will guard it.  For this reason, people from "good families" with
children of their own will be favored for positions of responsibility
because the cost of defection would reach all their relatives and their
own children. Note that this is different from the image of the "young 
hot-shot" who comes in and starts setting the world on fire.  Such people 
would be regarded as dangerous and destabilizing rather than merely 
ambitious.  

> What could cause such disorders?  Some guesses: economic dislocation from
> fusion+; a lost war; democratic rebels; anticapitalist rebels (fka
> communists); revolts by a minor race; revolts by colonials; Vargr
> incursions; a plague from a newly colonized world; a military coup;
> inflation from expanding exports; bloody feuds between noble houses; some
> costly campaigns on the frontier.

	Just the expansion of the empire itself could cause a good deal 
of disruption.  The megacorps could have been engaged in a kind of "land 
rush" into the new markets of the wilds.  This might have caused rapid 
economic expansion on some worlds or in some industries, and rapid 
decline in others.  If the worlds of Sylean Federation were all used to 
being economically insular, the rapidly growing competition from other 
worlds both in and out of the Federation, coupled with the real or 
perceived ineffectivenss of existing political institutions could have 
created the desire among the people of the Federation for someone, 
anyone, to _do_ something.  
	Cleon, as a kind of futuristic Ross Perot, just stepped forward
into the gap. 
 

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 17:00:42 -0400
Subject: Aslan subspecies

Michael Barry wrote:
> Different subspecies of Aslan;  1) the canon never mentions it. :)

The reason humans and vargr have different subspecies, is because
Grandfather and his kids mucked with their DNA.  Some of the
differentiation will because of different environments, but most of it
will because of genetic engineering.  

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 16:54:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)

>
>His Best:  Personal opinion is that he's going to have a hard time 
>topping The Sum of All Fears again in a future novel.  I thought Red October 
>was his best until I read SOAF...
>
>And just what the heck does this thread have to do with Traveller, 
>btw... :-P
>
>Stu
>"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
"Foundation"
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------
>This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located
next to
>Bob's Pet Shop.
>Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
>
I think his best was _Without Remorse_
                                                Doug

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:20:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site

This was just put up on IG's web site, in the News Section:

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Sept 05,1996
   We have received the first shippment of hardcovers from the printer!!
   We are expecting another shipment soon. The books will be sent out in
   the order they were requested. Marc Miller is coming up soon to sign
   them personally. More information as it become available.....
 
__________________________________________________________________________



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 09:49:09 UT
Subject: Radioactivity

How do I figure out how much radiation is left at any certain point in time 
after a nuclear war?

My current situation was a possible nuclear accident in an underground bunker 
which occurred appraoximately 500 years ago.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 08:11:28 UT
Subject: Starship Safety Devices

>> Just an observation, but I think the scenario would be *much* more
>> dangerous in space on a starship.
>
>Yup, especially seeing as the only oxygen supply for hundreds of 
>thousands of miles is both fueling the fire, and being breathed by 
>the crew...

What sort of devices might be on a starship to control a fire?  I imagine the 
iris valves would shut (sort of like a distant cousin to the flood control on 
a submarine) leaving crew members to die of 
suffocation/immolation/decompression, but what of the fuel tankage?  Is the 
fuel tankage one huge emty space, or does it have pumps, valves and pipes that 
would control the supply during a leak or fire situation?
Wouldn't the ship's computer shut off hydrogen and oxygen in the event of a 
fire?  Perhaps it would kill some crew and passengers, but would possibly save 
others?  What do you think?


						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Tees <macz62@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:43:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Hydrogen, the great equalizer...

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >Just think of the
> >Hindenburg and the Akron, but only in space. All it takes is a stray spark
> and
> >POOF.
> 
> Well, keeping in mind that most passengers on the Hindenburg survived, and
> that a starship is stronger than a dirigible, you might have a decent chance.
>  It was the blasted reporter freaking out on-air that gave Hindenburg such a
> deathtrap reputation.

Yes most died by jumping out or were burned by the engine fuel. Only one was killed 
by the hydrogen fire. He was on top of the airship.

Andrew.


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:10:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 05 Sep 1996 16: 20:36 CDT
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 18:10:05 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: This was just put up on IG's web site, in the News Section:
: 
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
:    Sept 05,1996
:    We have received the first shippment of hardcovers from the printer!!
:    We are expecting another shipment soon. The books will be sent out in
:    the order they were requested. Marc Miller is coming up soon to sign
:    them personally. More information as it become available.....
:  
: __________________________________________________________________________

Yes!!!!!!  (I was the first one to order one)

So you figure another two weeks to get here via snail mail.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:07:06 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

Moin Douglas E. Berry,

> In my Traveller universe, Marines travel in one platoon Drop Ships, roaming
> their assigned subsector, meeting of ships of the Regiment for training
> excercises.  This gives a Marine presence in most systems on a near
> continous basis.

	Sounds nice.

> Well, I have to wonder about the "continental level" comment.. Warfare is
> about controlling *points*: a harbor, starport, pass, radio center,
> whatever..  You could control the United States by controling the frieght
> yards in Kansas City and Chicago, and selected highway interchanges.
> Congradulations!  You have just cut of the food supply to 85% of the United
> States!

	This is "white war" controling/conquering. But every war is
	only white the first time. Sooner or later it'll become a
	black war. Lets think about Saddam has a bomb. He quickly
	can turn this white war (point attacks) into a catastrophic
	black war.

> Remember Murphy!  One of your thousands of of TL4 crossbowmen is going to
> get a shot into a visorslit, or a joint, or the airtank regulator..  If you
> are facing 16,000 men, a one-in-a-thousand event will hapen 16 times.

	Lets remember history. While it was easy for the Spains to
	conquer latin america, and they had a 30 against 10.000
	figth they won without loss. It was more difficult for
	the English to conquer South Afrika. They had a well known
	loss 500 against 5000, and they even had machine guns.


> You've never played in my games.

	War is a crazy thing.

	I normaly make it short when I incorporate it in rpg's.

	  - Everybody sais where he stands (1-20)
	  - Players are doing their damage
	  - War takes place : 1 role who wins
	  - loser takes serious damage at d20 for location.
	  - Constitution check for any player charakter there.
	    Routine means he is deadly injured.
	    Average           critical injured
	    Difficult                  injured
	    Formidable    he is ok
	  - Moral check for the hole troup, routine for the first
	    time imposible for the 5th up.

	War is over when a side surrenders by failing morale check.
	 
By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:29:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Safety Devices

Seal areas on fire off.  Open airlocks from those areas to space.
No more fire.

The crew is in vac suits already if military, otherwise they're in
emergency bubbles of dead.  Beats *everyone* being dead, though. :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 10:44:34 UT
Subject: Looking for Traveller Players in Dallas, Texas area

Please send an email to HomeBoyd@MSN.COM if you are either interested in 
playing Traveller or are already running a Traveller campaign. ---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 5 Sep 96 13:47:40 MS
Subject: T4: Making Clancy Relevant

Discussing the novels of Tom Clancy, Stu Dollar said (spewed?):
>And just what the heck does this thread have to do with Traveller, 
>btw... :-P

Aha!  For some of us, more than you might think.  I have managed to work up a 
_bunch_ of scenarios and min-campaigns for Traveller based on Clancy.  My 
favorite involved the theft of a new Solomani Intruder with a revolutionary new 
type of Black Globe.   We did this one way back in the past; when Hunt for Red 
October was only available from Naval Institute Press.  

A few months later, I was caught; one of my players got the Random House 
edition when it came out.

I've also used other Clancy bits; the research station attack in Cardinal of 
the Kremlin became the backdrop of a merc contract (Research Station hires 
mercs to defend against angry Chirpers without alerting the Imperial 
authorities to the situation), the back-country romp from Red Storm Rising 
(four PCs get caught behind the lines of an occupied Imperial world during the 
Zhodani invasion, and guide hidden SDBs until Imperial reinforcements arrive), 
the rescue of the terrorists on the Ferry in Patriot Games (PCs as guards; had 
to make some new PCs after that one - oops).  The first attempt was pretty 
derivative, but I've tried to disguise the others better, and I've only been 
caught well after the fact (if at all).

Inspiration is everywhere
Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:35:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

John Macpherson wrote:
> 
> > Fire-shock tactics 101.
> > Heavy cavalry's days as shock troops were numbered in the 13th Century. References:
> > Augincourt -- Cav vs. longbow. Mortgarten: cavalry vs. Swiss pikes.
>         Don't forget Bannockburn!  The Scots defeated the flower of
> European chivalry with their long spears and Schiltron formations long
> before either of the battles you mention.  Bannockburn was 1314
> while Agincourt wasn't until 100 years later in 1415.
>         No Trav connection, just a little Scottish pride. :-)

Dear me, how could I forget Robert The Bruce's triumph with _Braveheart_ and all that?

I know, Gibson didn't _quite_ get all the facts straight in the film, it's just that Far 
Too Many of My Friends[tm] were _really_ taken by the film. At least _you_ got yours 
right.

Thanks for reminding me that there are few forces in the universe more formidable or 
fascinating than Scottish pride, John.

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:39:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Another error in T4?

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> I was looking at the weapon stats and for the Magnum Revolver, the weapon
> table gives it a damage rating of 3 but the text about says Damage Rating
> 10! That seems a bit high. Which one is correct?
>                                 Allen

The Magnum Pistol DR of 3 makes sense, given that the autopistol, body pistol and SMG 
have a DR of 2. A DR of 10 exceeds that of a laser rifle (7)!

Cheers,

Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:00:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Marines v. Army

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      The only Marines we have in Australia are the ones guarding the US
>      Embassy here in Canberra. They look like big mean dudes with a chronic
>      hair deficiency. Except for the palms of their hands (stop it or
>      you'll go blind!)

Wonder if the Corps figured out what causes the hairy palms and increasingly poor 
eyesight yet ;) (evading into _hard_ cover!).

> 
>      Anyway, on the subject of officers...the best officers I have known
>      have been enlisted men who have then gone to officer school. T4 needs
>      a negative survival DM in the first term for *schoolboy officers* that
>      come out of military academy knowing f&^$ all about anything, thinking
>      they deserve some kind of adulation for learning to iron, spit polish
>      boots and talk like a boarding school prefect.

That's a possibility. Reminds me of the end of the John Belushi movie _Animal House_ 
where when "What happened to (character X)" was rolled. The obnoxious, self-important 
ROTC cadet was "Killed in Vietnam by his own men." Of course, most of the -DM can come 
about from that aphorism about the three most dangerous men in any service: a commando 
with a knife, a cook with a grudge, and a O-1 with a map.

> 
>      Worthless pack of oxygen thieves, the lot of them. Perhaps there
>      should be a separate roll for *one of your corporals grabs you and
>      bashes the bejeezuys out of you because you're such a jacked-up little
>      &#%k*. Not I had anything to do with such an incident in Townsville,
> Queensland a number of years ago...  :o  <protesting innocence>

Quoting Archie Bunker about labor union violence: "It isn't violence, Edith. It's 
education!" Of course, it is every noncom's duty to instruct his juniors, both those 
junior in rank and common sense . . . ;)
> 
>      Military academies don't produce many good officers; it's the
>      *battalions* (specifically platoon sergeants) that make good officers
>      out of the *very ordinary* raw materials produced by the military
> academies. I suggest that enlisted soldiers/marines/spacers get the chance to
> enter military/naval academy, with bonuses on their success roll for INT, terms
> of service and combat experience. *Real* soldiers don't have too many problems
> with officer training, except for some of the classroom stuff!

Another fictional reference (as though you can stand any more of them) Juan Rico.
> 
>      You might also want to consider using the British Commonwealth system of
>      military ranks for armies on some worlds, just to give a different
>      flavour. Officer ranks are pretty much as in the US Army, but enlisted
>      ranks (ORs) are a bit different, particularly at the higher NCO ranks:
> 
>      (for infantry units)
>      Private  (PTE)
>      Lance-corporal (LCPL)  Section 2IC
>      Corporal   (CPL)       Section Commander; same as sergeant in US Army
>      Sergeant   (SGT)       Platoon sergeant
>      (Staff Sergeant) Senior NCO not in chain of command eg clerk, stores
>      Warrant Officer Class 2  Company Sergeant Major (CSM)
>      Warrant Officer Class 1  Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM); aka 'God' :)
> 
>      In the Commonwealth system you would *never* see a Sergeant leading a
>      section (squad for you yanks), but you often see LCPLs filling in for CPLs
> and privates for LCPLs. Promotion commonly occurs from SGT to WO2 (Staff Sgt is
> often a specialist rank).

I take it that in the Commonwealth system that warrant officers are not the 
betwixt-and-between creatures they are in the US system, that they _are_ NCOs, period. I 
also take it that for chain-of-command purporses, the progression goes SGT to CSM to 
RSM, aka a God with six stripes who walks. Hell, it makes more sense to _this_ 
ex-naval Yank than our Army's system.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:24:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
>
> 
> Couldn't disagree with you more...  OK, the romance portions of the
> novel on Iceland are awkward, but this was a great WW3 scenario (at
> least when USSR vs. NATO scenarios were somewhat plausible) that even
> my wife got into.  However, as a romance novelist, Clancy is a great
> author of technothrillers.  BTW, Red Storm Rising is NOT a Jack Ryan
> novel, which your last paragraph would seem to imply...

Yes, _RSR_ was a great WW3 scenario. As one who greatly enjoyed General Sir John 
Hackett's _WW3: August 1985_ and _WW3: The Untold Story_, I have to agree. Yep, Clancy 
_couldn't_ write romance well at the time he wrote _PG_  . . . but he got _much_ better 
in that department in _Without Remorse_. 

> 
> His worst:  Excluding Op Center, which he doesn't really write...
> Patriot Games...  How ridiculous does it look to portray the Prince &
> Princess of Wales as having a healthy, normal relationship
> now...frankly, it even looked silly then.

Didn't follow the Charles and Di show back then . . . too busy gaming. ;) I agree 
with what you're saying. Then again, given the clumbsiness with which TC portrays 
relationships, the action scenes were good enough that readers may not have noticed.

> Clancy is best when he writes
> hard fiction, and is frankly an awkward writer at best about relationships...
> which he spends way too much time doing in Patriot Games...

Somehow, I wasn't all that distressed by Clancy's poor handling of the relationships in 
_PG_. I was more unhappy with Clancy's attempt to write a la Le Carre in _Cardinal_, 
which is why I rate _TCotK_ lower than _PG_.

> 
> His Best:  Personal opinion is that he's going to have a hard time
> topping The Sum of All Fears again in a future novel.  I thought Red October
> was his best until I read SOAF...

He's had three tries to top _TSoAF_, and  _EO_ comes closest. _HfRO_ is _still_ TC's 
best.

> 
> And just what the heck does this thread have to do with Traveller,
> btw... :-P

Who cares? <evil grin> Well, Trav is a sf game, and TC writes a sort of sf . . . . 
There's all those good ideas for plot elements and characters. I'll write up Ryan as a 
Traveller character to bring the thread back onto topic.

<sound of Red Meat[tm] hitting the water>
 
Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #386
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 6 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 387

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Thoughts on trade
         2. Re: [T96#378] Time Zones
         3. RE: News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site 
         4. Traveller sold out in Madison
         5. Re: Year 0
         6. Fwd: hiwg - New Web site
         7. Re: Bounty Hunters (VERY LONG!)
         8. This Is Only A Test
         9. RE: Bounty Hunters (VERY LONG!)
        10. Imperial Government
        11. Re: Marine Officers
        12. [none]
        13. Marine Officers
        14. [none]
        15. A regrettable omission - military ranks  
        16. Invasion Canon? (Was: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 19:10:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

Peter Berghold writes...

P::>At 07:06 PM 9/3/96 -0500, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
 ::>>  (1) Question for discussion:  Are these reasonable assumptions?
 ::>>  How long has the Sylean Federation been in existence, and is
 ::>>  this long enough to have developed economical million-ton
 ::>>  (disp) per shipment trade?
 ::>>

P::>My image of trade space-wide has always been that of ships in the 50,000 to
 ::>100,000 T(d) range doing the majority of shipments of things like grain,
 ::>etc. and smaller displacement vessels of the 100T(d) to 1000T(d) range doing
 ::>"specialty" items.  Sorta stretching an analogy a bit here, but like the
 ::>China Traders when they were trading tea/opium/silver.

 I'm not willing to rule this possibility out, if this the the
 general sense of the lists - or if IG says you've got it right.
 But remember that this is Year 0, a lot earlier in history than
 we're used to thinking of in Traveller.  During the period of
 history on this planet when Burma was the preeminent supplier
 of oil, we didn't have any Exxon-Valdez class supertankers
 delivering the stuff, either.  That's approximately what I'm
 suggesting in the kickoff post.

P::>>  Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
 ::>>  commerce - commodity trade, where large quantities of low-cost

P::>These I would assume be shipped in bulk to keep the costs down...

 Yes.  If they weren't, they'd most likely be classed as Goods,
 not Commodities.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Kennedy Compound -KEEP OUT- trespassers will be VIOLATED!

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 19:10:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#378] Time Zones

Leonard Erickson writes...

T::>In mail you write:

T::>>   The Internet not being an exclusively American thing, some of
 ::>>   our readers may not be familiar with the American time zone
 ::>>   names.  Thus, this brief.
 ::>>
 ::>>   Eastern Time (New York and Miami) is five hours behind UTC
 ::>>   normally. (UTC - 5)
 ::>>
 ::>>   Central Time (Chicago and Houston) is six hours behind UTC
 ::>>   normally. (UTC - 6)
 ::>>
 ::>>   Mountain Time (Denver and Phoenix) is seven hours behind UTC
 ::>>   normally. (UTC - 7)
 ::>>
 ::>>   Pacific Time (Seattle and San Diego) is eight hours behind UTC
 ::>>   normally. (UTC - 8)
 ::>>
 ::>>   Alaska/Hawaii Time (Nome and Honolulu) is ten hours behind UTC
 ::>>   normally. (UTC - 10)

T::>Actually, Alaska (or at least good chunks of it) is UTC-9.
 ::>There's also an Atlantic time zone (Eastern Canada) that is UTC-4, and
 ::>Newfoundland (or parts of it) is UTC-3.5.

 Whoops, you're right - this is obviously a recent change; my
 1973 almanac shows them in the same zone, with Yukon one hour
 west of Pacific.  My 1994 almanac shows your correction.

 Most Americans (from the US, that is, and by no means all of
 them) are rather more parochial about knowledge of the
 relationship between the US and the rest of the world than are
 most other people.  I assumed that any Canadians on this list
 were cognizant of both their time zones (which overlap the US
 time zones), and the relationships to UTC (which the rest of
 the world can be assumed to know).  That post was just for
 those who didn't know at all from American parochial time zone
 naming conventions.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Reality is relative, but Relativity is real.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:29:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: News on the Hardcovers, from IG's web site 

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, That Computer Guy wrote:

> 
> Yes!!!!!!  (I was the first one to order one)
> 
> So you figure another two weeks to get here via snail mail.  8)
> 

I was pretty early on, too.  The same day the message was up on the web 
site, I called in and ordered.  

So, with luck, mine will be here before Santa! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:40:52 -0500
Subject: Traveller sold out in Madison

I asked how Traveller was doing at the local store (Pegasus Games). They
said it had sold out already!

C'mon. SOMEone on this list has to be close by! :-)

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:42:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Year 0

> Sam Draper said:
> > 5) Cleon was a noble involved in big business.  Was that generally the case
> > in the federation, or did the nobility have its traditional dislike for
> > those who earn their bread?  Maybe the source of Cleon's power is his
> > ability to unite the nobility and business interests.  If they are not one
> > in the same, they would normally be at odds.

IMHO, they would be involved in big business.  If there is one thing 
the rich want it is to, at the very least, stay rich, if not get 
richer than their nearest peer.  If some portion of a generation think 
they can freeload, someone, somewhere in line to inherit the title 
will realize they have a vested interest in making sure that the 
family assets have lots of little baby assets.

Suz 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: bborich@gnn.com ()
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 19:03:07
Subject: Fwd: hiwg - New Web site

>Date:	Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:36:10
>From:	bborich@gnn.com ()
>Sender:	owner-hiwg@fwe.com
>To:	hiwg@fwe.com
>Subject:	hiwg - New Web site
>
>     I finally got a web site up.
>     It currently contains 3 of Clay's articles, The Concise 
>Histories of the 3rd Imperium, Vilani, and Terran Empires. I picked 
>these three because they seemed most suitable, and it so happens 
>provide some support for t4.
>     They're still a little ragged, but since I've no idea of what 
>I'm doing it'll do for now.
>      It can be reached at:
>      HttP://members.gnn.com/bborich/page1.htm
>
>
>      I just need to add a disclaimer once I find one, and than see 
>if I can figure what I'm doing so I can improve it.
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:03:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Bounty Hunters (VERY LONG!)

At 05:04 PM 9/2/96 UT, Boyd Schneider wrote:
>I'd like to hear any other input from ref's and players who have played a 
>bounty hunter in the past as well.  Thanks.

Well... One of my characters "Thul Jonson" (pronounced "tool yon-sun") was a
bounty hunter.  A very successfull one at that.  What follows here is a yarn
of how his career started.  This was a campaign that I played under while I
was in the US Navy.  Hopefully some insight can be gained by my ramblings.
Some of the individual details may be different than the original campaign
as it was a long, long, time ago and I don't even have Thul's character
sheet anymore. (I LOST IT <sob!>)  

Thul has also put in an appearance during the Elissa PBEM that was going for
a few years there... 


Thul's  schtick was repossesion of ships that had skipped.  He would search
the skip lists that were posted at various starports or with banks and go
looking.  

His success rate was so high that he became notorious and that notoriety
forced him out of the business, but it was not without lasting reward. I am
getting ahead of myself...

Thul was an ex-Marine Colonel who in spite of a glorious career was forced
out of the Imperial Marines during a RIF program. Seems he pissed off
somebody by not giving one of his subordinates a good fitness report.  Just
because this subordinate was the son of ... well we won't go into that.

Anyway.  Things being what they were there wasn't much work for a ex-Marine
Colonel who had seen lots of action to do.  Well... when somebody botched
the attempt (they all died) to reposses the ship that he had hitched passage
on after discharge this got Thul thinking.  After making planetfall, he
found out who held the mortgage on the ship.  Found the local office of the
bank and did some discreet inquiries.  Yes, they said, they paid 0.75% of
the principal on the loan for ships recovered. Yes, we keep lists of skipped
ships with holographs of their skippers... Oh.. but you need to have a
private investigator's license.  

Thul checked around and found out that PI licenses came in three basic
flavors.  Issued by a planetary government, issued at the sub-sector's
government seat, or issued by a sector government.   Well, the first one was
pretty limited, the last one damn near impossible to get, but the middle one
showed promise.  

The sub-sector's government seat was J2 away.  Find out who's going there... 

In the mean time, the captain of the ship that Thul arrived on was arrested
for use of forged papers.  Seems the way he was getting around this neck of
the woods without being discovered was by using the ship's papers for a
vessel that was lost with all hands aboard.  No-one is quite sure how this
mangy character managed to get a hold of the papers for that ship, but there
it is. He might have gotten away with it except that the sister of the lost
ship's captain tried to visit her brother when she saw that his ship was in.
The sister being a captain in her own right realized as soon as she saw the
ship that it wasn't her brother's ship and alerted the local authorities.

Well... Thul mused.. there went Cr150,000!  

Undaunted, he made his way to the SubSector capital.  Using his discharge
papers as letters of introduction, OBTW: Thul was knighted during his tours
of duty, but that's another story.  The fact that he was knighted seem to
help his cause some.  Six weeks later, (good thing he had things going for
him in his favor) he had his license. 

He also assembled a team of raiders.  Most of these folks were men and women
that served with him during his time in service.  Each were specialists in
their own field as well as being adept at arms and combat. 

A few trips to some banks, (and at the subsector seat there were plenty to
check), he started collecting lists of skipped ships.  With the economics of
the area being what they were, there were more skipped ships than one would
imagine.  

He also decided to diversify and see about wanted criminals and bond jumpers
as well.  He collected quite a list.  Seems that some folks in law
enforcement knew Thul from a while back... One, a Subsector Manager for the
IBI (Imperial Bureau of Investigation) had fond memories of Thul.  Seems
when this manager was a shave-tail leiutenant Thul carried him out of a
firefight after he had been severely wounded all the way back to an aide
station....

Armed with more information than they really needed Thul and his team set
off for the edge of the subsector.  

Now, an aside here...  this universe that I ran Thul in was a definite
variant of the classic GDW story line.  Seems that this subsector was on the
edge of the Imperium and what lie beyond the edge was the Traveller
equivelant of the Old West in the mid 1800's and though parts are settled,
they are not part of the Imperium proper.   With that backdrop, I'll
continue my story.

Along the edges of the subsector, life is cheap, booze is plentifull, and
you have to watch your every step.  Law is at the point of a weapon most
times and vigilantism is rampant.  

Thul's team consisted of the following:

             SERVICE                 SKILL
             DISCHARGED FROM         SET
 
             Scout                   Pilot, Commo, Computer
             Scout                   Elex, Navigator, Engineering
             Merchant                Engineering 
             Marine                  Lazer Weps, Demolitions
             Marine                  Heavy Weps, SMG, 0G Combat
             Marine                  Laser Weps 0G combat

The skills listed for the team are not the full skills, but what they were
best at. 

Their first mark was a suspected leader of an Inge Givar cell who had a
Cr500,000 reward on his head from the Imperium as well as Cr10,000 reward
from a bondsman that he skipped out on.  To make this part of the story
short (the rest of this is long enough!) there was a firefight that broke
out between Thul and the three ex-Marines he had on his team and the Inge
Givar that were trying to protect him.   None of the Inge Givar except the
leader survived.  One marine was wounded severely and was hospitalized.  The
manager of the hotel where the Inge Givar were staying were a bit snicked
out the door and the section of wall that were obliterated by the demolition
charge.. well never mind.  Thul eventually payed them for the damages and
all was forgiven...

Next, after delivering their prisoner to authorities they stumbled upon
something interesting.  Seems a ship that one of the Scout characters
spotted at a starport (Class C) had some unusual doings going on about it.
Seems, according to starport personell, the crew did not want anybody in the
engine room in spite of the fact that the crew were attempting to repair the
power plant.   "You don't want assistance?  We have good power plant
mechanics on staff... "  According to one of the mechanics at the starport
they had the feeling the crew was ill educated at fixing such things.  And
besides...  Their engineer quit on them...

This was discussed by the team.  A new arrival to the team, hired as a
replacement for the man wounded in the last go-around, started nosing around
the starport to find out what was going on...

The ship, a 600T vessel, was of a type that was normally used to run between
established routes.  What was it doing this far off the beaten path? 

The new guy turned out to be a god-send.  He located the ship's engineer.
Turns out he quit after not being paid for 4 months and was looking for
work.  He also said that he quit because the engines on this ship were an
accident waiting to happen.  He found out after a while that regular
shipyard maintenance had not been done in over 3 years!

This engineer was hired by Thul and payed two months pay in advance.  If the
engineer could talk his way back onto the ship and get an imprint of the
builder's plate that would be usefull information.

Well, the engineer did good.  He met Thul at a predesignated location and
using pre-arranged signals the imprint was delivered.   The engineer was
back working for his old boss, (or so his old boss thought) and working on
the sick power plant.  

The bad news was, Thul and his team would have to work fast.  The engineer
had managed to get the power plant working again, (the attempted repairs
made by the rest of the crew broke more than the original problem broke) and
they were making preparations to get underway.   

The ISSHRN was checked against the list that Thul had from the banks.  Sure
enough there was the ship.  And there's the skipper of the ship as well....
Except that he was the first officer when the ship was put on this list...
Wonder what happened to the original skipper?

Meanwhile, the checklist for getting underway progressed back at the
"Santaria Muse" as it was originally registered as...  At 15:52 local time a
harbor saftey team arrived at the gangway.  Seems that the harbormaster did
not want  this vessel to get underway without checking that the repairs on
the engineering spaces were properly certified. "Dammit back in '67 we had
one of you tramp freighers blow up as they were leaving orbit! Debris
knocked out one of our comm-sats! It's not happening again!"

The skipper of the vessel called down to his gangplank watch and said "Tell
'em to pound sand!  They don't have the right to come on my vessel if I
don't want them to.  This is my ship see..."  The skipper turned off the
intercom smug in the knowledge that these inspectors weren't coming aboard.
Hector and Darrius are pretty good men. They handle nosy people pretty well. 

About 3 minutes later the skipper's cabin door was rent open violently and
the skipper was knocked off of his desk chair by a shock wave and a rush of
hot air.  His ears ringing and his vision blurred rough hands rolled him on
his stomach and tie wrapped his hands together behined his back.  Ankles
similarly bound he wasn't going anywhere. Muffled popping was heard
elsewhere about the ship through his open door and a voice announced "All
secure Colonel!"

His vision barely clearing, his head throbbing with a headache to beat all
headaches, a man with baggy cammo pants, dark sweatshirt, with an unlit
cigar that had been chewed to a stub hanging out of his mouth, sat the
skipper up and said "Yore' Stanley Steadman?!  Colonel Jonsen at yore
service!  Your going back to Ytherix/Redman.  Seems there are questions
surrounding the fate of your old boss that have to be answered... Oh.. and
banks get touchy about not getting paid for 32 months..." 

Stanley looked up at the chronometer on his cabin wall... time was now
15:57 local time.  

And so launched the carreers of the most notorious repo team in Redman
subsector history.  A total of 23 ships were repossesed over a period of 3
years. In the end, a gratefull bank rewarded Thul with a free and clear
title to the last ship he was to reposses... the Korondor Talisman.   "Now
if somebody would teach me to fly this damn thing!"
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Jason E English <jeest5+@pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: This Is Only A Test

This is a test of the Emergency Traveller System. In cooperation with
federal, state and local authorities, this system has been developed to
keep Traveller players informed in the event of an emergency. Had this
been an actual emergency, this message would have been followed by
instructions to gather at the No-Holds-Barred Apocalypse Traveller Fest.
This concludes this test of the Emergency Traveller System.

Laugh While You Can!
Jason "Banzai" English
(jeest5@pitt.edu OR Visit Banzai's Bunkhouse at
"http://www.pitt.edu/~jeest5/index.html")



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 15:12:06 UT
Subject: RE: Bounty Hunters (VERY LONG!)

One word, outstanding!

Thanks for the great story Peter!

							---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 16:56:24 UT
Subject: Imperial Government

Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the 
average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace for 
the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial representative 
for the world?

Specifically, tonight a player started looking for an "Imperial government 
building" in the city near the starport on Ianic/Lunion (circa 1103).  Asked 
about his motives, he said he was looking for some specific information and it 
was decided that he look for it in a different location, but the question 
still remained in my mind after the session was over.

Discussion, anyone?
						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:23:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> This has BEVER been addressed in traveller (a friend of mine keeps saying
> that in Traveller, you are always refighting WW2). What do you guys think?
 Unfortunatley, I'd have to aggree... I would like it alot if the
technology drop was less in TNE(the tables they provide... TL-8 is unusual
in TNE...)

(that, and they really needa fix  fusion/plasma weapons)


bri <bri@teleport.com>
in the year 2000, scientists will discover that the monkey
who was responsible for the ebola virus, was also responsible for the
macarena...


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Fri,  6 Sep 96 02:46:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Michael.Barry

> PS a couple of months ago there was a discussion about the origin of
> the word 'Aslan'. I can confirm that the word is Turkish for 'lion'

True. Marc did not know this when he named them (but I told him almost
immediately). Marc's inspiration was the Chronicles of Narnia.

> so does that mean it is 'canon' that a Turkish Solomani explorer
> first encountered the Aslan?

Not necessarily. Could have been an English Lit Major.

Leonard Erickson

> If folks are actually interested, I can describe some historical
> techniques that would give even TL-15 forces a nasty surprise or two.

And if they don't want to go to the trouble, they can watch Return of
the Jedi....cinematic (not scientific) proof that hordes of small, low
tech mammals armed with flint-tipped spears and a "Three Stooges"
approach to combat can defeat a technologically superior but
mythologically bankrupt force.

   Loren Wiseman



------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:58:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Marine Officers

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>WWI was aturning point.. Europe had been mostly at peace for many years,
>and the hide-bound General Staffs considered the growing conflict as one
>more chance for a little glory.  They had no idea of what was coming.  It
>is almost impossible to blame them. 

This is an interesting apologia.  Where does it come from?

>The main German advantage was Guerdian's(sp?) brain.  

Guderian, as in the famous SPI game Panzergruppe Guderian.  His memoirs
are very good. 

>Remember Murphy!  One of your thousands of of TL4 crossbowmen is going to
>get a shot into a visorslit, or a joint, or the airtank regulator..  If
>you are facing 16,000 men, a one-in-a-thousand event will hapen 16 times. 

>I used this to demonstrate why battledress is not a cure all.  I had a
>friend build a TL14 squad in battledress, then I built an unarmored
>company for the same funds.  All my troops were armed with RAM grenades. 
>While I took heavy casulties, my return fire destroyed the squad. 

Your troops didn't break and run?  I would think that the morale checks
your men had to make every time they saw one of their stands burn up from
a plasma gun hit would take their toll.  You'd have to roll a morale check
on most units every turn; they're more likely to break than to hit and
penetrate. 

That's how it turned out in a similar situation in one of my games when I
first got Striker. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 09:00:37 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED  : traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
FROM : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
SUBJECT : drowning
DATE : 6.9.96

> Ah!  So this is some strange new definition of the word
> 'drowning' that I wasn't previously aware of.

>It's like being hung (the "tie a rope around your neck and haul you up"
>type not the "drop you to the end of the rope" type). It's only fatal
>if nobody does anything within the next 5 minutes or so.

>"Death by drowning" does not inevitably follow "drowning".

Many thanks for the clarification (and another I received off
list).  I genuinely hadn't gathered that there was this
distinction.  Apparently neither (new) British dictionaries
or anyone I can find 'locally' was aware of it either.  Just
goes to show how ignorant I can be at times!

(Sorry if my comment sounded sarcastic, didn't mean to be.)

Timothy Collinson
"Don't you just love the wide range of discussions on TML?"

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 06 Sep 96 18:11:34 +1000
Subject: A regrettable omission - military ranks  

     That little aside about the Commonwealth system of military ranks has 
     turned into a larger job than I thought! Rich's message has made me 
     realise that I didn't clarify a couple of things: 
     
     1. Warrant Officers are the equivalent of all those senior sergeants 
     that them yanks are so keen on, God love 'em. You never see any more 
     than *three* stripes on our sleeves, since we like to use 'other 
     stuff'. 
     
     2. I have a table below with the rank insignia markings for the 
     Australian Army. I have also given a rough equivalent for US enlisted 
     ranks, but I'm real hazy when you get up higher. Can anybody help me 
     out here? 
     
     AUST. RANK      US EQUIVALENT      AUST. RANK MARKING    
     Private         Private/LCpl       None
     LCpl            Cpl                Single chevron
     Cpl             Sgt                Double chevron
     Sgt             SSgt (?)           Triple chevron
     SSgt            ?                  Triple chevron + small crown above
     WO2             ?                  Single large crown 
     WO1             ?                  Large Australian Commonwealth crest
     
     Don't know what they use in other countries (Canada, India, Britain, 
     ...) but I'm sure they don't have a crest with a kangaroo and an emu 
     on it ;] 
     
     Note: US chevrons (stripes) have the point at the top (ie like an 
     upside down V). Commonwealth NCO chevrons look like a V, right side 
     up! 

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 01:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Invasion Canon? (Was: Traveller-digest V1996 #360)

Thus spake Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>:

> > was another one of those "canon" arguments. Canon says invaders first tried
> > to capture the system's gas giant for refueling. Defenders protected it.

[Merrick's "Invade by way of the Kuiper Belt" stuff snipped]
 
> So my fleet will have a 1g HEPlaR drive and mine the Kuiper belt
> anyway.  As you say, it is not possible to defend, so I bypass the
> GG.  True I then need to jump in-system, but it'll only be a J1, and
> I'll have at least enough fuel to jump back to the belt.

At which point you'll be able to hook up tow cables to some of those 
'ice-teroids' and begin to accelerate them in-system to significant 
fractions of C, right?

No, really.  Please do NOT respond to this thread except to throw things 
at me.  I don't wanna resurrect that un-thread.  Puh-LEEZE!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #387
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 6 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 388

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Thoughts on trade
         2. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
         3. Re: Marine Officers -- LONG
         4. RE: Imperial Government
         5. Re: Marine Officers -- LONG
         6. Re: Thoughts on trade
         7. Re: Marine Officers
         8. Re: Marine Officers
         9. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
        10. Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)
        11. Re: Starship Safety Devices
        12. Core subsector error
        13. Re: Marine Officers
        14. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
        15. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks 
        16. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
        17. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

In a message dated 96-09-04 22:58:55 EDT, you write:

<< >I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
 >interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
 >time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
 >gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
 >means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
 >into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it.
  >>

So, I can ship 100 tons of Unobtanium from there to here for perhaps 100,000
credits (shipping cost of Cr1,000 per ton) plus the cost of buying the
material there. Free-lance shippers might be able to give a better rate;
corporate owned ships might do even better.

If I can get unobtanium locally for less than that price, no one is going to
ship it from there to here. On the other hand, if our local world (research
station with no local resources, or vacuum world with no agriculture) needs
something it can't produce locally, then we will see some commodity shipping,
won't we? It just depends on supply and demand.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:52:56 -0400
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

In a message dated 96-09-04 21:56:17 EDT, you write:

<< Since Marc has expressed a desire to make Traveller the third big-time 
 sci-fi franchise (along with Star Wars and Star Trek), it is undoubtedly 
 very important that none of the Traveller aliens bring to mind Klingons, 
 Romulans, Ewoks, or other well-known aliens from those Other 
 Franchises(TM). 
  >>

In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much like the
Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were there first, they
(Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we don't want to look like we're
copying.

Marc


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:55:00 +1000
Subject: Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > The disparity of which you speak _was_ addressed in _Striker_ and
> > _Striker II_. Low-tech armies get ground into sausage against
> > high-tech armies in combat. The challenge for the low-tech guys is to
> > find a way to win -- to deny the enemy the means to wage war -- that
> > does not involve human-wave assaults, etc.
> 
> Anyone who thinks that high-tech vs low-tech means an automatic win for
> the high tech folks is either assuming overwhelming numerical
> superiority. or *really* dumb low-techs.

My point was that the force ratio between TL is the facter, technolagy 
was the reason. 1 person with a TL15 Battle dress is still going to be 
overwealmed by 100,000 spear wealders. The TL15 would just kill a high 
proportion of the attacker , equivelent to a TL10 Company size unit.

> 
> Against *intelligent* low-techs, the high-tech had better be *very*
> good, or else they'll get handed their heads on a platter.
> 

Also, many high tech governments (take America) , but not all, would not 
be willing to take a smaller ratio of losses , than say an army in the 
Feudla Japan or Crusader period.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 12:26 +0100
Subject: RE: Imperial Government

Boyd,

In my campaigns, I work it much like the Federal buildings in State Capitals.  
The Imperium has buildings and facilities that house the offices of the 
government employees that monitor Imperium matters (Trade, taxation, planetary 
relations, etc.).  Maybe federal buildings are not a good analogy...but it is 
more than just a consulate or embassy.  I have several near the starports and a 
few in the capital.  This isn't canon but it is how I run my campaigns and it 
seems to work.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:07:17 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers -- LONG

In mail you write:

> Excerpts from Traveller: 4-Sep-96 Re: Marine Officers -- LONG by Leonard
> Erickson@krypton 
>> If folks are actually interested, I can describe some historical
>> techniques that would give even TL-15 forces a nasty surprise or two.
>
> Yes, Yes!  One of my groups had a decidely mercenary bent.  They also
> thought that if they stocked up on all the best high-tech goodies, they
> were invincible.  One of the most effective traps was the good,
> old-fashioned man-made rockslide.  (Boy, were those guys full of
> themselves!)

Well, working backwards:

WWII tech is more than up to producing "crunch guns" except that in the
real world, they are a lot lighter, and punch bigger holes in battle
dress. 

Civil War tech has gatling guns, which, given the incentive they
*could* improve in various ways. Also, the tech in the Monitor and in
the ill-fated Confederate submarine *are* combinable. And Civil War era
artillery isn't anything to sneeze at.

Sir Humphrey Davies developed several weapons (around 1815!) that even
the British Military decided were too terrible to use, and filed away
for major emergencies. Specificly, many of the poison gases used in WWI
were doable a century earlier. I don't have anything approaching a
complete list, but chlorine is obvious, and it is known that he
discovered mustard gas from when the sealed files were opened. Given
that Chloroform dates back that far, it is virtually certain that he
found phosgene as well (one of the tricks to producing chloroform is to
do so *without* producing phosgene!)

Late Renaisance artillery is fully capable of doing nasty things to
you. It was reasonable mobile, and powerful enough to eliminate castles
as a factor in warfare.

Also, using sappers and gunpowder charges goes *way* back. 

Greek fire can ruin your whole day.

Also something called a "fire pot" is nasty, and predates gunpowder. It
consists of a careful dug and reinforced hole, full of flammables. You
get the enemy to attack the position at the right time and it goes off
showering them with burning nastiness. Think of it as a one-shot
flamethrower suitable for barbequeing medium size infantry and tank
formations. 

Trebuchets are light, easy to conceal, relatively portable, *quiet*,
and medium sized ones are capable of throwing small cars several
hundred yards! Changing the bearing is a bitch, but since they can be
built to use very few expensive/important materials, building "one use"
units is not unreasonable. So you can send in a grav tank, only to have
a *big* rock smash it into the ground. 

The Roman repeating ballista might get improved if folks were desperate
enough. Its main shortcoming was that it didn't traverse, and was *too*
accurate, so after the first round, the advancing enemy, just opened a
gap in the ranks for the projectiles.

Besides rockslides, "primitive" natives can stampede *large* animals at
you. Pit traps are hard to detect. And the native hiding in the bushes
with a blowgun and poison darts is going to be both hard to detect, and
hard to defend against.

That last bit was the basis of a *wonderful* story in Analog in the
mid-60s. The high tech forces land to take possesion of a planet, and
start having people drop dead mysteriously on guard duty. They finally
leave suspecting everything from indetectable death rays to psionic
attackers. But it's just "primitives" with tiny slivers of bamboo and
some *strong* poison. :-)

The trick on that one is to not volunteer any ifo to the players, and
let them make lots of wrong guesses. :-)


> "Only one...has survived battle with [us].  He is behind me; you are in 
> front of me.  If you value your lives, be somewhere else!"
>                                                     - Ambassador Delenn 

They just reshowed that a few hours ago....

"Only one of your captains has ever survived battle with a Minbari
 fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your
 lives be somewhere else!"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 01:50:17 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

In mail, bmac@astro.ucla.edu writes:

> Shadow writes
>
>>I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
>>interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
>>time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
>>gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
>>means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
>>into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it.

> I don't think Traveller fusion power is *that* cheap. (Anyone ever
> wworked out what the cost per kw-hour is, by the way?) Vaporising a
> million tons of rock to extract the UnObTanium is an awful lot of
> power; 10^15 joules, maybe - a month's work for a gigawatt fusion
> plant, which costs as much as a small starship. Far cheaper to send
> the small starship to the Unobtanium Pits of Alpha Centauri.

Ah, but you aren't getting *just* the Unobtainium. You get things like
20 or 30 thousand tons of iron, silicon, titanium, plus lots of gold,
silver, platinum, etc.

> There will also be various radioactives that just plain don't exist
> except in young star systems - there are probably planets around
> stars in Orion where you can mine raw Pu238 and Pu239, fresh from the
> supernova that triggered the formation of their system, for example.

Don't count on it. It takes a few megayears to go from "disturbed
nebula" to "planet stable enough to mine". That tends to thin out the
short lived isotopes. And they can't get too concentrated anyway, you
you get things a lot messier than the natural reactor in the Congo.

With fusion torch type gear, you get the "rare" stuff as either
byproducts from processing whatever rock was handy for more common
elements, or from processing stuff like wrecked equipment. 

It's definitely a lot easier and cheaper to vaporize and seperate the
ruined hull plates from a damaged starship than it is to mine lathanum
from any sort of ore using other techniques.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:08:31 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

In mail you write:

>> Remember Murphy!  One of your thousands of of TL4 crossbowmen is going to
>> get a shot into a visorslit, or a joint, or the airtank regulator..  If you
>> are facing 16,000 men, a one-in-a-thousand event will hapen 16 times.
>
>         Lets remember history. While it was easy for the Spains to
>         conquer latin america, and they had a 30 against 10.000
>         figth they won without loss. It was more difficult for
>         the English to conquer South Afrika. They had a well known
>         loss 500 against 5000, and they even had machine guns.

This is where the bit about *intelligent* opposition comes in. The
Spanish had an advantage in that the natives viewed them as gods (or
demons). Take that away, and the 30 would have died. They might have
inflicted great losses, but they would have died.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 02:46:22 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

In mail you write:

>   "It is no accident that the vehicle has no low-lethality secondary
> weapons. It literally has no ability to respond to provocation while
> limiting damage, for that is not it's job.
>   "The fact that it is entirely armed with nuclear tac missiles and a
> fusion gun was well-advertised and the message was clear: when the Marines
> arrive, the party is over, and no half-measures will be taken."

Slight problem here. Say they are in an area like the Balkans. The
Serbs will sneak into a Croat area to attack, and get the hell out of
there. That way it's the Croats who get nailed. This sort of thing
happens in real life. Heck, even the more "dedicated" guerilla types
will attack in areas they don't live so as to increase the number of
people with a reason to hate the invaders.

The other means of dealing with such things is to not *kill* any
invaders. Either you just wound them (which ties up more enemy troops
anyway) or you go in for various sorts of sabotage. 

Some of the more traditional sabotage tricks won't work well. Grav
vehicles won't need anywhere *near* the amount of lubricant that
wheeled and tracked vehicles do. So no adding the little packets that
make the engine sieze up hours later. 

Sabotaging fuel is harder too. Bbut I can think of a couple of
possibilities. A device that when slipped into an LH2 tank sits there
until the fuel level gets *way* down. Then it ignites a charge of the
material they use in things like "SolidOx" torches (basicly a solid
that releases an *enormous* amount of oxygen when ignited). Use the
Hydrogen to cool the gas so it can mix well (not that hard to set up).
Then, once the tank is full of the right mixture of oxygen and
hydrogen, supply a spark. The resulting blast should *easily* rival a
truck bomb. And it'll likely destroy or at least incapacitate even an
AFV.

A sneakier one, that depends on details as to *how* Traveller fusion
reactors work is to "spike" the fuel with something. For example, if
the reactors can actually "burn" regular hydrogen, with little
"enrichment" of deuterium/tritium, a good slug of D or T will result in
at least a small bang, or a thermal runaway in the reactor. Any
reaction that is running on mostly H1, or on just the small amounts of
H2 and trace amounts of H3 you'll find in normal hydrogen is not
goingto reaxct well when suddenly fed nearly pure deuterium, or a
deuterium/tritium mixture. It'd be rather like putting Aviation
gasooline into a deisel engine. It won't explode, but it'll ruin the
engine, and may ruin part of the power train as well.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:23:55 PST
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

In mail you write:

> Actually, I think I will argue this point, considering the fact that the 
> Galaxy is a three-dimensional structure, and the Traveller abstraction of 
> one Hex represents a column of space several light-years tall (well, 
> thats the way *I* interpret the hex, one could also argue that the hex 
> system is just a J-space representation of N-space, meaning comparing 
> N-space distances on a subsector map is, well, silly)
>
> My opinion is that Hexes *could* contain rogue comets, stars with no 
> solar system, stars with nascent systems with no large solid bodies, 
> brown dwarfs (source of the dark matter cosmologists wrangle about, I 
> imagine them as sorta like rogue gas giants, stars that haven't lit up 
> yet) or any number of things.
>
> That much space is unlikely to be really empty, the problem is that there 
> is so much space between all the cool stuff there.

Sorry, but it *is* likely to be that empty. In this part of the galaxy,
the average seperation between stars is 5-6 light years. That's under 2
parsecs, but not by all that much. And being 3-d, this actually makes
stars *less* common than in Traveller.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:39:25 PST
Subject: Re: Tom Clancy (Slight Spoiler)

In mail you write:

>> And just what the heck does this thread have to do with Traveller,
>> btw... :-P

Well, we can file off the serial numbers and re-use the plots in
Traveller games. A Dushanbe type installation would be a great way to
inform a scout ship checking out a planet that the natives were *not*
TL8! (or is it 9?) <eg>

> Who cares? <evil grin> Well, Trav is a sf game, and TC writes a sort
> of sf .  . . .  There's all those good ideas for plot elements and
> characters. I'll write up Ryan as a Traveller character to bring the
> thread back onto topic.

Heck, we *know* that Clancy has some interest in wargaming. Maybe we
can get him interested in Traveller? I don't care whether he writes a
book, or an adventure. Either would be great. Tough I have to admit
that a Trav adventure written by Clancy might be just a hair hard to
survive for normal characters. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:33:06 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Safety Devices

In mail you write:

> but what of the fuel tankage?  Is the fuel tankage one huge emty
> space, or does it have pumps, valves and pipes that would control the
> supply during a leak or fire situation?

You *don't* design tanks as huge enpty spaces unless they are one use,
and that use is under aceleration. "Sloshing" is a major problem in
large tanks, as significant amounts of mass can be shifting. So large
tanks have lots of baffles. And you need pumps, and possibly othe
measures, to deal with the situation when you have to restart the
engines after being in free fall.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Amnuss@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:20:49 -0400
Subject: Core subsector error

Getting ready for my campain I noticed that the Core Subsector given in the
back of the T4 rules is not the same subsector shown in The Traveller's
Digest #8.  Went to the Atlas of the Imperium and the TTD8 Core subsector
matched it (subsector G).  I matched the subsector in T4 rules to subsector
K.

According the Atlas the original worlds of the Sylean Federation are:
2118 Capital
2213
2214
2216
2314
2316
2317
2318
2413
2414
2416
2513 Khuir
2517
2615 Ispumer
2616
2814
2816
2913
2914
2916
3015
3113
3115 Markasher
3117
3216

Until Imperium Games say otherwise I'm going to use the Atlas/TTD maps and
UWP's.

Alan

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>   "It is no accident that the vehicle has no low-lethality secondary
> weapons. It literally has no ability to respond to provocation while
> limiting damage, for that is not it's job.
 It should be... At least keep a VRF gauss gun around for anti-missile and
soft-troop work. It's not _only_ more economicial but more effective and
incredibley cheap(m^3, mt and MCr wise)

bri <bri@teleport.com>
in the year 2000, scientists will discover that the monkey
who was responsible for the ebola virus, was also responsible for the
macarena...


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:38:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On  5 Sep 96 at 10:57, Jeffery M. Miller spewed:

> > Again, potentially, you'd have to find them first of course.  And
> > you've to a really big feild and just a single blade of grass to
> > locate. --- end of quoted material --- ah, but a big, greasy,
> > metallic blade of grass. I like her idea: it would imply that there
> > might have to be a sufficiently large database of 'missing' ships
> > with projected paths, etc etc to make it feasible,and theres also
> > the 'icky' factor of coming upon lots of lonely corpsicles in all
> > those ships.....
> 
> Of course, since the most likely reason you're going to find a
> derelict in deep space is the result of a misjump.  The equivalent of
> searching the sealanes really wouldn't apply, since a misjump
> necessarily would be the equivalent on a transatlantic Europe-US trip
> and crash landing in Antarctica...  and the Antarctica in question is
> uncharted, and several orders of magnitude bigger.
> 
> I'd suspect you'd have more luck searching for derelict ships in some
> of the backwater systems...

I suspect you'd have a greater chance of finding a single tonka toy on 
the face of our planet...  It'd be fun to find that ship but the odds of 
it are slim and none, and Slim just left town.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 06:49:26 -0700
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks 

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>   AUST. RANK      US EQUIVALENT      AUST. RANK MARKING
>   Private         Private/LCpl       None
>   LCpl            Cpl                Single chevron
>   Cpl             Sgt                Double chevron
>   Sgt             SSgt (?)           Triple chevron
>   SSgt            ?                  Triple chevron + small crown above
>   WO2             ?                  Single large crown
>   WO1             ?                  Large Australian Commonwealth crest
> 
>    Don't know what they use in other countries (Canada, India, Britain,
>...) but I'm sure they don't have a crest with a kangaroo and an emu
>on it ;]

In Canada we use Maple Leafs.  I've got a friend in armor who could 
answer this correctly but he's in Japan till January.  We also have a 
rank called Master Corporal which I beleive uses two right way up "V" 
chevron's with a Maple Leaf.  He's the guy you don't mess with in the CF. 
 I think he's something like a Drill Sargent in the States.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:24:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

Rich Ostorero wrote:

>
>Dear me, how could I forget Robert The Bruce's triumph with _Braveheart_
>and all that?
>
>I know, Gibson didn't _quite_ get all the facts straight in the film, it's
>just that Far
>Too Many of My Friends[tm] were _really_ taken by the film. At least _you_
>got yours
>right.
>
>Thanks for reminding me that there are few forces in the universe more
>formidable or
>fascinating than Scottish pride, John.
>
>Rich Ostorero
>stormhvn@inreach.com


        For the record, Gibson did actually get a few historical facts
straight.  There were indeed Scots named William Wallace and Robert the
Bruce, Edward I was indeed an expansionistic English king of that period,
the battles in the movie were named after actual historical ones, and
Wallace was in truth executed in an unpleasant manner.

        Aside from that, Braveheart is all Hollywood.  I can't believe he
won Best Picture for it.  Frankly, I think that Babe deserved it instead.

        Second or third thing I did after seeing Braveheart was go through
a biography of the Bruce and A Short History of Scotland.  I was really
steamed by the time I realized just how bad a job Gibson had done...



*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:37:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  

Michael.Barry wrote from down under:

>     That little aside about the Commonwealth system of military ranks has 
>     turned into a larger job than I thought! Rich's message has made me 
>     realise that I didn't clarify a couple of things: 
>     
>     1. Warrant Officers are the equivalent of all those senior sergeants 
>     that them yanks are so keen on, God love 'em. You never see any more 
>     than *three* stripes on our sleeves, since we like to use 'other 
>     stuff'. 
>     
>     2. I have a table below with the rank insignia markings for the 
>     Australian Army. I have also given a rough equivalent for US enlisted 
>     ranks, but I'm real hazy when you get up higher. Can anybody help me 
>     out here? 
>     
>     AUST. RANK      US EQUIVALENT      AUST. RANK MARKING    
>     Private         Private/LCpl       None
>     LCpl            Cpl                Single chevron
>     Cpl             Sgt                Double chevron
>     Sgt             SSgt (?)           Triple chevron
>     SSgt            ?                  Triple chevron + small crown above
>     WO2             ?                  Single large crown 
>     WO1             ?                  Large Australian Commonwealth crest
>     
>     Don't know what they use in other countries (Canada, India, Britain, 
>     ...) but I'm sure they don't have a crest with a kangaroo and an emu 
>     on it ;] 
>     
>     Note: US chevrons (stripes) have the point at the top (ie like an 
>     upside down V). Commonwealth NCO chevrons look like a V, right side 
>     up! 

You missed one in the us one chevron is a Private, First Class (PFC) in the
Marines.

Just to continue the thread here is a list of US ranks for all forces.
I'd like to see this extended for other countries.

Ref: Pocket Ref, Thomas J. Glover, Sequoia Publishing, Inc.

Pay
Grade   Air Force                         Navy & Coast Guard
E1      Airman Basic (AB)                 Seaman Recruit
E2      Airman (Amn)                      Seaman Apprentice
E3      Airman 1st Class (A1C)            Seaman
E4      Senior Airman (SrA)               Petty Officer 3rd Class
E5      Staff Sergeant                    Petty Officer 2nd Class
E6      Technical Sergeant                Petty Officer 1st Class
E7      Master Sergeant                   Chief Petty Officer               
E8      Senior Master Sergeant            Senior Chief Petty Officer
E9      Chief Master Sergeant             Master Chief Petty Officer
W1      Warrant Officer                   Warrant Officer     
W234    Chief Warrant Officers            Chief Warrant Officers
O1      2nd Lieutenant                    Ensign
O2      1st Lieutenant                    Lieutenant Jr. Grade
O3      Captain                           Lieutenant
O4      Major                             Lieutenant Commander
O5      Lieutenant Colonel                Commander
O6      Colonel                           Captain
O7      Brigadier General *               Commodore *
O8l     Major General **                  Rear Admiral **
O8      Lieutenant General ***            Vice Admiral ***
O8      General ****                      Admiral ****           
O8      General of the Air Force 5*       Fleet Admiral 5*


Pay
Grade   Army                              Marines
E1      Private                           Private
E2      Private                           Private 1st Class
E3      Private 1st Class                 Lance Corporal
E4      Corporal Specialist 4             Corporal
E5      Sergeant Specialist 5             Sergeant
E6      Staff Sergeant Spec 6             Staff Sergeant
E7      Sergeant 1st Class Spec 7         Gunnery Sergeant  
E8      1st / Master Sergeant Spec 8      1st / Master Sergeant
E9      Sergeant Major Specialist 9       Sgt Major / Mgy Sergeant
W1      Warrant Officer                   Warrant Officer     
W234    Chief Warrant Officers            Chief Warrant Officers
O1      2nd Lieutenant                    2nd Lieutenant   
O2      1st Lieutenant                    1st Lieutenant
O3      Captain                           Captain
O4      Major                             Major
O5      Lieutenant Colonel                Lieutenant Colonel  
O6      Colonel                           Colonel
O7      Brigadier General *               Brigadier General * 
O8l     Major General **                  Major General ** 
O8      Lieutenant General ***            Lieutenant General ***
O8      General ****                      General ****        
O8      General of the Army 5*            ---


Not not being military and all my consultants :-) are Army or Navy I have no
idea about the "Mgy" abbreviation, Marine E9 Mgy Sergeant.  Any enlightenment?


P.S. This is my first post on this mailing list (been lurking for a while)
and am glad to be back in the Traveller World (TM).  Have been out of
Traveller for a long while, since the little black books, but I am anxiously
awaiting my Hard bound copy of T4.<big painful sigh>  And haven't been able
to get a soft bound.  My friendly supplier had to send his shipment back
because of damage. :-(
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
Multiversal Mercenaries - WE KILL IT!
Any Time ...  Any Place.....  Any Reality
 "bumper sticker"
  


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #388
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 6 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 389

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Double vision
         2. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
         3. Officers/Canadian Army Ranks
         4. bounty hunters
         5. Nobles
         6. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
         7. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  
         8. Re: Marine Officers
         9. Re: Imperial Government (LONG)
        10. Re: Question about Subsector Maps
        11. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
        12. Re: Imperial Government
        13. Re: Bounty Hunters
        14. Holding Onto the Hull
        15. White/Black War
        16. Re: Marine Officers
        17. RE: Question about Subsector Maps
        18. Book to Consider

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tony Zbaraschuk" <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:35:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Double vision

Begging pardon for this...

but I'm getting two copies of the Traveller list, and none of the
X-boat list, so if somebody could fix this, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.

Tony Z (tonyz@eskimo.com)


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:45:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

On  6 Sep 96 at 6:38, Derek Stanley spewed:

> I suspect you'd have a greater chance of finding a single tonka toy
> on the face of our planet...  It'd be fun to find that ship but the
> odds of it are slim and none, and Slim just left town.  8)

Actually, finding a tonka toy wouldn't be all that hard.  I have 2 
sons.  There's a Tonka truck about 5 feet away...  :-)

This is more than just a flippant remark...  The whole key to 
searching for a derelict ship would be the same things it is in 
present day terms, but magnified...  You'd need to do a lot of 
preliminary research to locate and pinpoint possible wreck sites, and 
have lots of time and money to do the search.  Remember that in present day 
terms, most sunken treasure searches, and indeed searches for any 
sort of wreck are ALMOST always unprofitable...and are usually 
unsuccessful.  Look at how long it took Ballard to locate the Titanic 
several years ago, and we knew almost precisely where it sank...  Unless 
the PC's have a good idea of where to look, this would probably be 
even more true in deep space...where the hiding places would be 
increased by several orders of magnitude...

OTOH, PC's stumbling upon wrecked ships is a plot device I've used a 
few times, so...  maybe its more common in my games than it would be 
in reality...  :-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:04:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Officers/Canadian Army Ranks

Off topic, but several people seem to be bring these issues up.  Someone 
said that the best officers are former enlisted/NCO's.  I would be to 
differ.  Two guys I knew in the army were CFR'd (Commissioned From 
Ranks).  They were both good soldiers, but when they became officers it 
was like the part of their brain that allowed them to think was cut out 
during their officer training.

As for Commonwealth Nation ranks, here is what it is for the Canadian 
Army, if anyone cares:
     CDN RANK        US EQUIVALENT      CDN  RANK MARKING
     Private         Private/LCpl       Single chevron
     Cpl             Cpl                Double chevron
     Master Cpl      Sgt                Double chevron + maple leaf above
     Sgt             SSgt (?)           Triple chevron + maple leaf above
     WO              ?                  Single large crown
     Master WO       ?                  Single large crown with a wreath
     Chief WO        ?                  Canadian Coat of Arms

===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bounty hunters

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>

>What kind of requirements might the Imperium impose on characters wishing
>to be bounty hunters? 

The Imperium?  Probably none.  

>Is there any licensing requirements or do they just bring in the bad guys
>and walk away with a check?  If licensing is required, then who
>regulates/enforces it? 

I would think that the local bar, medical, and accounting associations
would administer tests and issue licenses.  Right -- what's the emoticon
for deadpan-delivery sarcasm? 

Bounty hunters are just people who make a living from the rewards offered
for the apprehension of people sought by the authorities.  They're not
licensed or regulated by anyone (and certainly not the Imperium, which
doesn't have enough interest in law enforcement to create another
regulatory structure). 

They may need weapons permits, which may require weapons training and
certification.  They may have day jobs, like private investigators or
assassins, that require licensing.  They may have to get a commission (in
the sense of a letter of marque) from the rewarding authority, depending
as all of the above examples do, on local law.  (I'm thinking of the scene
in Rob Roy when Montrose directs Cunningham to arrest Rob Roy, and says,
"You have my commission on't!")

That's how I play them.  Bounty hunters exist today; maybe they have a
trade journal (or a web site) with useful information. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nobles

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> 

>>I just don't like the idea of portraying every noble as a thief...  Do
>>that, and you're going to have a group of characters who have a great
>>desire to push every noble they come into contact with out of the nearest
>>airlock sans vacc suit ASAP.  I thought it dangerous to buy into this
>>generality, and still do... 

Here's the heart of the matter, so I haven't addressed your other points
(on which we're probably more in agreement than not).  I don't portray
every noble as a thief when running a game (remember, they're murderers,
too).  It's not realistic, for one thing, and it's too predictable, for
another.  I leave it to the Ine Givar to espouse radical notions like
getting rid of them all. 

I just don't have any illusions about the nobility of the noble class. 
There's nothing noble about violence and theft, no matter how many steps
removed from it one is.  Noble NPCs (or PCs, for that matter -- my players
can let their characters think anything that's in character) may even
believe their own lies.  Certainly billions of their subjects do. 

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)

>If Cleon is assumed to be a good man and a responsible ruler,  

Why would you make that assumption about 
- -a powerful industrialist, who 
- -controlled the Sylean Federation from behind the scenes;
- -embarked on a Machiavellian campaign lasting over thirty years to expand
the Federation beyond its capacity to retain control; 
- -in order to seize autocratic power?  

See Supplement 11, Library Data (N-Z), "Sylean Federation", at 23-24.  The
foregoing is my analysis and interpretation of the Library Data entry. 

Now, I have no doubt that he was competent, and that he had a grand (even
grandiose) vision that was eventually carried out, and he picked competent
people.  He may even have picked people who believed his rhetoric about
the need to grow or decay or whatever it may have been -- he probably did,
in fact. 

>>If you pick good people, the "felon who steals the common out from under
>>the goose" is going to be the exception to the rule, not the rule. 

In a time of expansion, the felons are out stealing the geese from the
neighbors' commons and bringing them home; and killing the neighbors; and
selling their commons to the next wave of picked good people.  During such
a time, it is best to be firmly on the side of the picked good people. 

>Again, if you are responsible enough to pick good people for the job, the
>"bad apples" will be a small and despised fraction of the total.  Face
>it--you have a government to run, are you going to pick known brigands for
>the job? 

Of course not -- you're picking known brigands to drive the outward
expansion, and when that stops, you're killing them off as best you can
before they turn on you.  That was Strephon's mistake -- he'd forgotten to
be a sufficiently violent thief.  He should've been reading The Prince
instead of The Gettysburg Address. 

>The other obvious check on rapacious nobles: all government exists, in
>the long run, at the consent of the governed.  Push "the governed" too
>far, and they will throw your ass out of office--if you have a democracy. 
>If you don't, they'll stand you up in front of a firing squad "come the
>revolution"... 

That's why your rapacious nobles must be directed outwards; having them
operating too close to home destabilizes society.  You're right, of
course, that nobles are smart enough not to push the governed too far. 
You can be very rapacious in your own backyard if you market it well
enough and/or provide enough distractions. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:06:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

On  6 Sep 96 at 10:24, R.D. Elliott spewed:

> won Best Picture for it.  Frankly, I think that Babe deserved it
> instead.

Actually, I wasn't even sure Babe deserved a best picture 
nomination...  I've found it difficult to sit through more than about 
5 minutes...without getting bored, or wanting to kick in the TV 
set...

> 
>         Second or third thing I did after seeing Braveheart was go
>         through
> a biography of the Bruce and A Short History of Scotland.  I was
> really steamed by the time I realized just how bad a job Gibson had
> done...

Aw come on...  When have filmmakers, or for that matter novelists, or 
playwrights, ever worried about keeping the facts straight...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:11:08 -0700
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  

On 06 Sep 96, Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au said:
     
>     1. Warrant Officers are the equivalent of all those senior sergeants 
>     that them yanks are so keen on, God love 'em. You never see any more 
>     than *three* stripes on our sleeves, since we like to use 'other 
>     stuff'. 

Unless we are in our dress greens, you'll never see any stripes on our
sleeves.  US Army uses small rank insignia on the collar
     
>     2. I have a table below with the rank insignia markings for the 
>     Australian Army. I have also given a rough equivalent for US enlisted 
>     ranks, but I'm real hazy when you get up higher. Can anybody help me 
>     out here? 

I've put my best guesses in <>
     
>     AUST. RANK      US EQUIVALENT      AUST. RANK MARKING    
>     Private         Private/LCpl       None
>     LCpl            Cpl                Single chevron
>     Cpl             Sgt                Double chevron
>     Sgt             SSgt (?)           Triple chevron
>     SSgt            <Sgt 1st Class>    Triple chevron + small crown above
>     WO2             <1st Sgt>          Single large crown 
>     WO1             <Sgt Major>        Large Australian Commonwealth crest
     
>     Don't know what they use in other countries (Canada, India, Britain, 
>     ...) but I'm sure they don't have a crest with a kangaroo and an emu 
>     on it ;] 

Are you sure that first colony ship to Oz wasn't filled with recent escapees
from Bedlam?  Kangaroos indeed!

Oh, alright. I was once in a unit that used a cotton bale as it's D.I., went
back to the Battle of New Orleans.
     
>     Note: US chevrons (stripes) have the point at the top (ie like an 
>     upside down V). Commonwealth NCO chevrons look like a V, right side 
>     up! 

That's easy to explain, you are clinging to the underside of the planet, so
of course you get confused about which way the chevrons are supposed to point.

Good to see you back on the list Michael.


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:10:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:

>On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> 
>> I draw the line at giving a Naval Ground Force Lt. the keys to any nuclear
>> aresenal, the are inventive enough on their own.

>  Take a look at the Imperial Marine APC. As early as Striker (the
>original, not II) or even book 4 - the APC has *one* main weapon (a
>rapid-pulse fusion gun) and several *nuclear* tac missiles.

Yes, and I used 3G3 to design some very nasty conventional missles for MT
Marines.  The Fusion Y gun was a directed weapon.  Nukes are nasty, dirty
and affect an area for decades.  You want to nuke a site?  do it from orbit.
You want to go in, level the Ine Givar base, and drag the cell leader out in
his pajamas?  Send a platoon of Marines.

>  This is expanded upon in the Regency Equipment Guide: The APC is
>nick-named "the big stick". 

>  "It is no accident that the vehicle has no low-lethality secondary
>weapons. It literally has no ability to respond to provocation while
>limiting damage, for that is not it's job.
>  "The fact that it is entirely armed with nuclear tac missiles and a
>fusion gun was well-advertised and the message was clear: when the Marines
>arrive, the party is over, and no half-measures will be taken."

Please note that I said I wouldn't trust a Marine Lieutenant with the Nukes.
His Battalion commander, on the other hand, is fully authorized to open up
the weapon stores.

Sending in ground troops, even in Battledress and fusion guns, means you
aren't just going for mass destruction, you have an objective.  Using nukes
is a clumsy excuse for real military skill.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:11:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Government (LONG)

On Thu, 5 Sep 96, "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> inquired:
 
>Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the 
>average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace
>for the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial
>representative for the world?

I see there being some sort of consulate, from a prefab base at the side of
the landing strip at a class E starport to Lunion's Ducal Tower in downtown
Hirosta.  (based on 101 California for any San Franciscans out there)

The is, at minimum, a Consul whose job is to facilitate the smooth
communication between the Imperium, the local noble, and the planet
government.  The Consular staff also deals with questions such as visas,
Imperial Law, and any aid or assistance projects.

Larger consulates will have recruiting stations, large offices for most of
the Imperial Ministries, public areas with information terminals and small
exhibits.

Let me describe Lunion's Ducal Tower.  It is a large (78 story), triangular
skyscraper in the heart of Hirosta's financel district.  The building faces
onto a wide plaza with decrotive fountains and plants (some from off world).
If you stand in the center of the plaza, on the Sunburst done in red tile,
facing the building, this is what you see:  To your right is N-Space, a
popular resteraunt serving the building.  N-space rotates its fare to show
off the cooking styles of the various worlds of the subsector.  In the
evening, it is a popular place for "off the record" meetings with subsector
officals.

To your left is the lobby, a large glassed in area.  A small museum shows
off artifacts and crafts from the Lunion subsector.  At the door, two
Marines in Dress Uniforms and chromed Gauss Rifles stand guard.  Inside,
there is a large reception desk, with several civilan workers, as well as
another Marine.  The receptionists will be glad to direct you to the proper
office.

As you head for the elevator, you see a very large piece of hull metal
hanging from the ceiling, with burn scars and other damage.  Stopping to
read the plaque, you learn that this is a piece of the Sword World's
battleship Wotan, which was destroyed by a suicide squad of Lunion Army and
Marine volunteers during the 4th War...

You get the point..

The link to the Imperial government should be accesible, easy to use, and
able to do very little.  I suggest reading Keith Laumers Retief books for
the perfect example of how to run a red-tape machine.




+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|         Harnic War-Ferret Trainer          |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|  "A mountain is something you don't want   |
|   to fuck with"  -Frank Zappa              |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 06 Sep 96 12:10:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Question about Subsector Maps

ah, you cynical defeatists! Deepspace exploration, gang! Long range sensor
sweeps! the thrill of occasionally hitting the motherlode!
And, may I point out to those of you who (may) have forgotten what we're REALLY
talking about here, the lubbricant provided by the suspension of disbelief
needed to play a game! :->

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

Hi all.  

	I was thinking about the problem of misjumping into an empty
parsec when a thought occured:  Could you not simply crawl into some low
berths, turn your radio up to maximum power with a distress beacon, and
wait it out?  Assuming you're anywhere near civilization, another ship
should enter the parsec sometime (e.g. a jump-1 ship making multiple jumps
to cross a 2-3 parsec gap).  After about a year and a half your signal
will have reached the far corners of the parsec, so anyone jumping into it
should pick it up.  I'm making a number of assumptions here, of course,
and I'm wondering how plausible they are: 

1. A low berth can run on minimal powerplant power and/or emergency
batteries for several years.  I'm pretty sure this one is supported by
canon (after all, what fun are low berths if you can't find people from
previous decades/centuries in 'em? :-)
2. The powerplant will run that long (assuming you need it to maintain the
low berths) on the fuel it has.  I'm thinking running the plant on "low"
and using a trickle of its usual output.
3. Your radio signal can be picked up across light-year distances.

	Another idea which follows from this:  Could you send a radio or
laser signal to a nearby system?  I've heard that even a 200 MW laser from
earth could be picked up by alien civilizations many light years away
(it's sort of a do-it-yourself SETI idea someone came up with :-).  So
maybe you could tightbeam a message at someone?  Or would a broadcast
message be better? 

	Hey, here's a weird notion:  maybe part of the scout/navy's job
would be to look for distressed ships in empty space.  They'd jump around
in say a 1 lightyear grid with very sensitive radio/EMS sensors looking
for signals from misjumpers.  

Comments, criticisms, ranting flames?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:20:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:
> Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the 
> average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace for 
> the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial representative 
> for the world?
> 
> Discussion, anyone?

  This kind of thing is vague enough in source literature you can
visualise your own idea of what Imperial government looks like and get
away with it.

  On "important" worlds (subsector capitals, etc) the center of government
would probably be a city's worth of Imperial buildings with the dukes
palace and estate somewhere in the middle.

  On lesser worlds, there would either be an Imperial facility at the
starport or a nobles estate. Remember, the Imperium is based on "noblesse
oblige" whoch means that Imperial business is done through a network of
nobility that has varying levels of responsibility.

  Lesser worlds would probably be represented directly by the nobility
while more important worlds would have large staffs.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Sep 1996 17:13:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Bounty Hunters

I would say that the Imperium doesn't concern itself with stuff like that.  If
you break local laws, it is up to local planets to catch/punish you.  Of
course, if you break _Imperial_ laws...

So, let your players become bounty hunters.  But keep track of what they do
where (and to whom), and let their dirty deeds catch up with them.  Remember,
a planet migtht declare them persona non grata based on what they did
somewhere else.

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 6 Sep 96  9:02:44 MS
Subject: Holding Onto the Hull

Charles Collin said:
>Regarding people hanging onto the hull, I figure if you survive entry into
>jump space (and my intuition is that the jump field would protect you),
>you'd be okay long enough to get into an air lock.  There are a couple of
>difficulties to overcome, however.  One is actually hanging on.  Depending
>at what rate the ship is accelerating, this might be difficult.  

I understood what you were getting at here, but in my mind I had this image of 
our plucky adventurer desparately holding onto hull stanchions, his evening 
finery being torn from his body by the fierce ether winds.  No, wait, wrong GDW 
game.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Sep 1996 17:17:31 GMT
Subject: White/Black War

>Lets think about Saddam has a bomb. He quickly
>	can turn this white war (point attacks) into a catastrophic
>	black war.

Some of my students are Iraqi.  They do not view the war as a white war: they
lost civilian relatives in those 'point attacks', and others after the
coalition attacked Iraqi infrastructure.

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:41:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >   "It is no accident that the vehicle has no low-lethality secondary
> > weapons. It literally has no ability to respond to provocation while
> > limiting damage, for that is not it's job.
> >   "The fact that it is entirely armed with nuclear tac missiles and a
> > fusion gun was well-advertised and the message was clear: when the Marines
> > arrive, the party is over, and no half-measures will be taken."
> 
> Slight problem here. Say they are in an area like the Balkans. The
> Serbs will sneak into a Croat area to attack, and get the hell out of
> there. That way it's the Croats who get nailed. This sort of thing
> happens in real life. Heck, even the more "dedicated" guerilla types
> will attack in areas they don't live so as to increase the number of
> people with a reason to hate the invaders.

   You're missing the point.

   Dealing with those kinds of situations isn't in the IM charter. The
Imperium deals with violations of Imperial law (eg, no nukes) _not_
local "disruptions". Planets are left, as they should be, to deal with
their own problems with a certain amount of leeway.

   Anytime Marines get involved, I'll bet it's more to "keep the edge"
(training) than to get seriously involved; also to provide some backbone
to local troops. In any case, in situations like that "the big stick"
would probably be left at home, and Marines would be wearing combat
environment suits and sporting guass rifles - not Battle Dress and FGMPs.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"...I do my job the best way I know. I'll keep on doing that. If somebody
gets killed, OK. Nobody lives forever, and I don't have any friends on the
other end of the muzzle"
  - Danny Pritchard



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 04:37:49 UT
Subject: RE: Question about Subsector Maps

Stu wrote...

OTOH, PC's stumbling upon wrecked ships is a plot device I've used a 
few times, so...  maybe its more common in my games than it would be 
in reality...  :-P


Most things in our games occur more than they would in reality...  <g>  that's 
what makes 'em fun!
					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 05:09:13 UT
Subject: Book to Consider

As long as you guys are talking about Tom Clancy books, I have a book that you 
might like to look for.  "The Writers Guide to Creating a Science Fiction 
Universe" by George Ochoa and Jeffrey Osier.

It is great for those of us who are not physics/chemistry/astronomy majors to 
fill in some of the blanks for our game.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #389
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 6 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 390

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Imperial Government
         2. If 6 is now 7, but actually are 5...  (Droyne in T4, or not...)
         3. Task System
         4. RE: If 6 is now 7, but actually are 5... (Droyne in T4, or not...) 
         5. RE: bounty hunters
         6. Re: Ranks
         7. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
         8. Canadian Master Corporal
         9. TL16: A Modest Proposal
        10. CHARACTER SHEET (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 04:50:02 UT
Subject: RE: Imperial Government

In a previous message, J D Burdick wrote:

>In my campaigns, I work it much like the Federal buildings in State 
>Capitals.  
>The Imperium has buildings and facilities that house the offices of the 
>government employees that monitor Imperium matters (Trade, taxation, 
>planetary 
>relations, etc.).  Maybe federal buildings are not a good analogy...but it is 

>more than just a consulate or embassy.  I have several near the starports 
>and a 
>few in the capital.  This isn't canon but it is how I run my campaigns and 
>it seems to work.

So these are staffed with bureacrats out of the local population, or are these 
transplanted Imperial citizens?  To what degree could a character depend on 
help if the locals are a little unruly/corrupt/out-to-get-them?

(I have images in my mind of the U.S. Embassy complete with Marine Guards.)

------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:24:42 -0600
Subject: If 6 is now 7, but actually are 5...  (Droyne in T4, or not...)

Advance apologies if this thread is something that was discussed earlier but...

I was reading through T4 last night and was struck by the following passage
on Page 145:

"By Imperial reckoning, any race that invented the jump drive and therefore
achieved star travel on its own is termed a _major race_.  Consequentially,
any intelligent alien species that never developed that technology
independently is a _minor race_.  There are exactly seven major races; the
Vilani, then the Aslan, Hivers, K'Kree, Solomani, Vargr, and the Zhodani."
(unusal wording reproduced exactly, _underscores_ indicate italic type in
T4)

It occured to me that something was missing, something has changed.  Where
are the Droyne?  The original major "six races" were: Humans (with it's
three branches), Aslan, Droyne, Hivers, K'Kree, and Vargr.  It appears that
in T4 that the Droyne have been demoted almost into oblivion...  They only
get mention on Page 8 in the History of the universe section when the
narrative is talking about "Grandfather".  As a matter of fact the Droyne
don't even rate a mention as a minor race.  I dunno, I always liked the
little guys...

I'm wondering what happened to the Droyne and why.  I think I can see a
possible reason why they may have been excluded from the Major Race moniker
with the passage also on page 145:

"Each major race holds dominion over a large volume of space rivaling that
occupied by any of the three Imperiums."

But by T4's definition, quoted earlier, the Droyne qualify as a major race
and perhaps, if Traveller Digest (the magazine) is still considered canon,
the Aslan don't...

Any thoughts?

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:24:25 -0500
Subject: Task System

Hi, all.

Re the task system discussions, I've been playing with a variant that
uses 1/2 the characteristic (round up) plus the skill as the target and
using 1D6 less for the task rolls.  I've got some results on success
probabilities for various characteristic and skill levels that I
calculated on a new web page I put up.  Its at:

http://www.umr.edu/~mkm/trav/travpage.htm

I also posted the C code I used to figure the probabilies, plus a subset
which just calculates distributions for various numbers of dice.

I haven't looked at the multiple task resolution thing yet, so I don't
know if it'll work for that.  Any comments on the page or the task
system thing would be appreciated.

Thanks,

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: If 6 is now 7, but actually are 5... (Droyne in T4, or not...) 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12: 24:42 MDT
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:48:16 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Advance apologies if this thread is something that was discussed earlier but.
..
: 
: I was reading through T4 last night and was struck by the following passage
: on Page 145:
: 
: "By Imperial reckoning, any race that invented the jump drive and therefore
: achieved star travel on its own is termed a _major race_.  Consequentially,
: any intelligent alien species that never developed that technology
: 
: It occured to me that something was missing, something has changed.  Where
: are the Droyne?  The original major "six races" were: Humans (with it's
: three branches), Aslan, Droyne, Hivers, K'Kree, and Vargr.  It appears that
: in T4 that the Droyne have been demoted almost into oblivion...  They only
: 
: I'm wondering what happened to the Droyne and why.  I think I can see a
: possible reason why they may have been excluded from the Major Race moniker
: with the passage also on page 145:
: 
: "Each major race holds dominion over a large volume of space rivaling that
: occupied by any of the three Imperiums."

The terms major and minor races were created by the Vilani in order to
keep their prominence (originally, they were they only major race, and
the subjugated all the other races they came in contact with and thus
"lesser" races were born).  Of course, once the Vilani spread outward
enough, they ran into other major races.  8(

The Dryone, especially if they're uncast don't really seem to have that
zest for life that would make them cranky for being called a "major" or
"minor" race.

: But by T4's definition, quoted earlier, the Droyne qualify as a major race
: and perhaps, if Traveller Digest (the magazine) is still considered canon,
: the Aslan don't...

****Possible Spoiler****

The Aslan will be considered a major race until 1100 or so, when it's
revealed that they aren't!!!  (for those of you who don't know what I'm
talking about, ignore me).

After that, it seems like no one really cares.  The toons have been
powerful for close to a milenia, and major/minor races aren't terms that
hold much meaning in the Third Imperium.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 06:01:13 UT
Subject: RE: bounty hunters

In a previous message, Glenn M. Goffin emphatically declares:

Bounty hunters are just people who make a living from the rewards offered
for the apprehension of people sought by the authorities.  They're not
licensed or regulated by anyone (and certainly not the Imperium, which
doesn't have enough interest in law enforcement to create another
regulatory structure). 

They may need weapons permits, which may require weapons training and
certification.  They may have day jobs, like private investigators or
assassins, that require licensing.  They may have to get a commission (in
the sense of a letter of marque) from the rewarding authority, depending
as all of the above examples do, on local law.  (I'm thinking of the scene
in Rob Roy when Montrose directs Cunningham to arrest Rob Roy, and says,"You 
have my commission on't!")

Well, first you say they don't need any license, then you say they might get a 
commission (letter of marque) or in other words, a license to perform the 
activities of pursuit and apprehension of fugitives...   what is the 
difference?

As for the Imperium creating another regulatory structure, I am sure that the 
Duke might want to keep his ne'er do well little brother occupied and out of 
the way, so he might say, "Clarence, I need a competent man whom I can trust 
for a highly important office.  Therefore, I am sending you to Lunion to head 
up a new agency, "The Bureau of Anti-Piracy and Deep Space Treason 
Prevention..."  or some such... <grin>

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:16:22 MST7
Subject: Re: Ranks

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>

>Not not being military and all my consultants :-) are Army or Navy I have no
>idea about the "Mgy" abbreviation, Marine E9 Mgy Sergeant.  Any enlightenment?

Master Gunnery Sergeant.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:19:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

At 12:22 PM 9/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all.  
>
>	I was thinking about the problem of misjumping into an empty
>parsec when a thought occured:  Could you not simply crawl into some low
>berths, turn your radio up to maximum power with a distress beacon, and
>wait it out?  

Sure you could, and a repeating radio locator beacon would not be hard to
rig.  And it would allow those "blade of grass" and "Needle in the haystack"
searches to work a bit better.

Also, if one misjumps into "empty" space, usually your ship has enough
Maneuver Fuel to make a significant fraction of Lightspeed before fuel runs
out (it doesn't take very long), pop everyone into low berths, and COAST
back to civ. 

Makes living near a rift an eternal archaeological find.  

"What, a DROYNE ship from Grandfather's time drifting through the system,
Martha?"

Scott Ripley
Intersteller Recovery Experts
"We will do it - We'll do ANYTHING (For enough money)"
"Hey Mikey!"



------------------------------

From: ross@odyssee.net (Ross Coburn)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:43:55 -0500
Subject: Canadian Master Corporal

Actually, a Canadian Master Corporal (between Corporal and Sergeant) is, in
the infantry at least, a section leader, 3 to a platoon.  The rank insignia
was correct, and rather fetching at that.

Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 6 Sep 96 11:04:27 MS
Subject: TL16: A Modest Proposal

I was just thinking:

While I am waiting for the rest of the '96 T4 releases to come out, I am 
continuing to use TNE (and FF&S) in a late Third Imperium setting.  I have TL15 
and a few TL16 worlds out there.  It stuck me that everyone has a great 
fascination with TL16 (because its so rare, I guess), and I was trying to come 
up with some TL16 goodies for the players.  However, TL16 does not seem to make 
a huge amount of difference, per the FF&S rules.

So, I decided that at TL16, you could have starships of less than 100 tons.  
The FF&S rules allowed such small starships at all tech levels, but I retained 
the 100-ton limit for consistency/continuity with CT.  However, with the 
inspiration of Fusion + and small craft at TL12+, this seemed fairly 
appropriate.

I realize this is very much "getting ahead" of the current Mileu 0 focus, but I 
suspect the new FF&S (whatever it will be called) will be covering the full 
range of Imperium Technology (TL5-15+).  I just wanted to post this suggestion 
while I was still thinking about it.

Any comments?

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
scharlto@rtd.com


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:52:27 -0400
Subject: CHARACTER SHEET (LONG)

        Thanks to my friend Robert Brail, we now have for you a TWO-SIDED
Traveller character sheet with a lot more room for skills and some other
cool stuff. These are saved in two GIF files, in the attatched file
TRSHEET.UUE. You need UUDECODE to pull these out. If anyone wishes me to, I
can upload these to an FTP site if proper arrangements can be made. As
always, these are copyrighted by Imperium Games and can only be reproduced
for private use blah blah blah.

- ----------------- cut
here-----------------------------------------------------------
section 1 of uuencode 5.15 of file trsheet.zip    by R.E.M.

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end
sum -r/size 56626/38850 section (from "begin" to "end")
sum -r/size 5917/28176 entire input file
From ???@??? Fri Sep 06 18:56:27 1996
X-State:  3
X-Total-length:     39372
Received: from NS.MPGN.COM ([206.175.4.254]) by mail-e2b-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA03969; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:36:10 -0400 (EDT)
X-UIDL: 842060718.058
From: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Received: by NS.MPGN.COM; id AA25782; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:46:08 -0400
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:46:08 -0400
Message-Id: <9609062246.AA25782@NS.MPGN.COM>
To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #391
Reply-To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest          Friday, 6 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 391

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. ERROR...ERROR...ERROR...
         2. RE: TL16: A Modest Proposal 
         3. Re: If 6 is now 7, but actually are 5...  (Droyne in T4, or not
         4. Re: Nobles
         5. Re: Canadian Master Corporal
         6. [none]
         7. Re: [T96#382] Thoughts on Trade

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:16:36 -0400
Subject: ERROR...ERROR...ERROR...

        The message containing the new character sheet actually contains two
files of the exact same thing; the BACK of the character sheet. This file,
TRSHEET1.UUE has the front. Just substitute this for TRSHEET1.GIF from the
other file, and you will have both sides. We apologize for this redundancy
and taking up so much space with this.

- -------------- cut here --------------------------------------------------------
section 1 of uuencode 5.15 of file trsheet1.zip    by R.E.M.

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`
end
sum -r/size 47385/25851 section (from "begin" to "end")
sum -r/size 56027/18741 entire input file
From ???@??? Sat Sep 07 11:56:20 1996
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To: traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #392
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 7 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 392

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Thoughts on trade
         2. Re: [T96#382] Thoughts on Trade
         3. Major Race Mutation
         4. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
         5. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks 
         6. Aslan as MAJOR race...
         7. Nobles per Goffin
         8. Re: Deep space comets and stuff
         9. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about
        10. Apology
        11. Newbie on the list
        12. Army Ranks
        13. On a happier note...
        14. Re: Apology
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #391

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:35:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

Leonard Erickson writes...

S::>In mail you write:

S::>>   Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
 ::>>   commerce - commodity trade, where large quantities of low-cost
 ::>>   and/or consumable/disposable goods are shipped because it's
 ::>>   cheaper than producing locally (example: machine parts on a
 ::>>   world that doesn't have accessible ores); goods trade (can't
 ::>>   think of a better name), where moderate quantities are shipped
 ::>>   as an alternative to local production, because of perceived
 ::>>   "cachet" or better quality (example: ground cars to a planet
 ::>>   with a slightly lower TL); and luxury trade, where small
 ::>>   quantities commanding high prices are shipped, because limited
 ::>>   quantities of the good are available, or there is limited
 ::>>   source, or anything else that might make something command a
 ::>>   high price (example: garments made of the fur of an animal
 ::>>   that only lives in one system in the subsector - or the fur
 ::>>   itself, to be made into garments at destination).

S::>I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
 ::>interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
 ::>time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
 ::>gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
 ::>means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
 ::>into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it. And you'll
 ::>get similar amounts of the other "rare" elements. Plus lots and lots of
 ::>oxygen, silicon, titanium, aluminum, etc.

 This, of course, assumes that there is such a thing as a fusion
 torch extraction unit at the TL of the demand planet.  Fusion-
 based processes have a slight problem that I can see
 immediately - fusion creates _plasma_, which is lots and lots
 of stripped ions of all types, and then does interesting things
 to the plasma, like taking a good chunk of any available
 hydrogen ions, and converting them to one-fourth as many helium
 ions - or other combinations.  And what keeps the elemental
 gadolinium from recombining with the elemental oxygen?  What's
 the mechanism (even theoretically) for separating out the
 stuff? And how expensive is it going to be to run this fusion
 extraction process on that million tonnes of random rock?  Why
 won't it be cheaper to mine it from a planet two or three
 parsecs away, where it's as common as sand, and can be obtained
 in an easily refinable (with lo tech) form in relatively large
 quantities?

 Seems to me I recall that nuclear (fission) power would bring
 us to an era of nearly-free power forever.  Seems to me that if
 your scenario were accurate, everyone who had a few million
 bucks would be investing in the development of fusion power -
 or even in the preliminaries that would be needed, like
 superconductors, and supermagnets.  Seems to me that that's not
 happening.

S::>This has all sorts of consequences. Most don't break canon. The only
 ::>real "break" is the lack of a commodities trade in raw materials. And
 ::>given the fact that all the trade systems so far are broken to one
 ::>degree or another, I don''t think it's that big a deal.

 But the idea is to create a trade system that isn't excessively
 broken.

S::>But among other things, this means that one of the *cheapest* materials
 ::>is quartz glass (silicon dioxide). It'd be the primary output of of an
 ::>extractor (actually, it'd be silicon and oxygen in plasma states, but
 ::>it's easy to combine them). Aluminum is the cheapest metal, with
 ::>titanium not that much more expensive. Iron is less abundant, so it'll
 ::>cost nore. But it'll still be cheap.

 Check your assumptions - remember that fusion is hot enough to
 vaporize just about anything we can think of - it is, after
 all, what's driving that big power plant that's 150,000,000 km
 off the New York coastline...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ To deny the facts would be illogical, Doctor.



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:35:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#382] Thoughts on Trade

John MacPherson writes, in response to my initial posting...

T::><the following edited for brevity>
 ::>>   Now, there are logically three broadly general classes of
 ::>>   commerce - commodity trade, goods trade, and luxury trade.
 ::>>
 ::>>   (2) Question for discussion:  Am I talking through my hat here,
 ::>>   or is this reasonable?  What kinds of goods would you put in
 ::>>   each category?

T::><econ lecture mode ON>

 [deletia]

 ::> As for your trade categories, they basically make sense in game
 ::>terms.  Luxury goods are probably about evenly divided between trade
 ::>motivated by  comparative vs competitive advantage.  Buying and selling
 ::>Andromedan rubies is probably different than buying and selling
 ::>Andromedan pig iron, though, so it makes sense to separate luxury goods
 ::>as a separate category for game purposes.

 The rationale for that was a combination of two factors -
 perceived value (pig iron doesn't have the perceived value of
 gem-quality diamonds, even if the latter are as common as
 sand), and expected lot size.  If you're doing goods trade in
 ground cars, and all of a sudden you realize that you're
 shipping plus ten million Td per year to the same planet,
 you've probably moved into the commodity zone.

 ::> An important note is that even if the worlds of the Sylean
 ::>Federation are capable of being completely self-sufficient and are
 ::>totally technologically superior to their neighbors they _still_ have a
 ::>reason to trade!  The gains from trade are such that even if one world is
 ::>in absolute terms able to produce all goods more cheaply than another, if
 ::>their comparative advantages are different, they still gain from trade.

 Certainly - this kind of thing may well be what is involved in
 much of the commodity and goods trade, or in outright freight.
 While I couldn't have put it as well as you, this was what was
 in part suggesting the direction I should go in my ideas.

 [deletia]

T::> What this means for Trav is that the nascent Imperium has very
 ::>large gains to be had from trading with its low-tech neighbors.  I can
 ::>see a TL-10 world producing large fusion reactors in exchange for
 ::>miniturized fusion reactors from a TL-12 world.  Even more extreme, a
 ::>TL-12 company could shift production of things like consumer goods to
 ::>TL-8 or lower worlds to take advantage of inexpensive labor and material
 ::>inputs.  The worlds of the Sylean Federation may have survived the Long
 ::>Night because of their self-sufficiency, but remaining so will leave them
 ::>economically stagnant.

 Gee, sounds like a familiar scenario - from a bunch of planets
 named "The United States" and "Taiwan" and "Malaysia" and so
 on?

T::>>   Broadly speaking, I view the basic trade values in Traveller
 ::>>   as referring to the goods trade; commodity trade will command
 ::>>   lower prices at both ends; luxury trade will command higher
 ::>>   prices at both ends.

T::> If shipping is a competitive business then it won't really matter
 ::>to the shipper since he'll just be paid per cargo container.

 Well, yes, that's probably true - but (and I apologize for not
 emphasizing this earlier) I was thinking more in terms of what
 has historically (in Traveller) been called "speculative" trade
 - where the guy doing the shipping buys the goods at one end,
 and sells them at the other end.  On the mains, this may not be
 a big part of trade, and [my classifications of] commodities
 and some goods will probably be handled as "freight", at
 standard rates.  But on the frontier, and in the Deeps, spec
 trade would probably be the rule, at least until someone
 realizes "Hey, the _Edmund_Fitzgerald_ has been making a mint
 lately; let's see if we can get a piece of that," at which
 point volume starts going up, and prices start coming down.

T::>>   (3) Question for discussion:  Is this reasonable?  What should
 ::>>   the base values be?  Should there be a price modifier on goods
 ::>>   that require special handling (toxic, radioactive, fragile,
 ::>>   etc.) or special environments (live animals, etc.)?

T::> Things that cost more to ship should pay more to ship.

T::>>   (4) Question for discussion:  What else should affect the
 ::>>   price of goods, at either end?

T::> Since trade will be growing rapidly there probably won't be enough
 ::>ships to go around at first.  This means people who own ships, shipyards,
 ::>and starports, will be capturing lots of the gains from trade, ie.
 ::>charging a lot.

 OK, now how do we model (SIMPLY) the market forces that will
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Memory error on Brain1 - R)eboot, S)mack upside the head.


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 6 Sep 96 16:10:31 MS
Subject: Major Race Mutation

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>

>"By Imperial reckoning, any race that invented the jump drive and therefore
>achieved star travel on its own is termed a _major race_.  Consequentially,
>any intelligent alien species that never developed that technology
>independently is a _minor race_.  There are exactly seven major races; the
>Vilani, then the Aslan, Hivers, K'Kree, Solomani, Vargr, and the Zhodani."
>(unusal wording reproduced exactly, _underscores_ indicate italic type in
>T4)
>
>It occured to me that something was missing, something has changed.  Where
>are the Droyne?  The original major "six races" were: Humans (with it's
>three branches), Aslan, Droyne, Hivers, K'Kree, and Vargr.  It appears that
>in T4 that the Droyne have been demoted almost into oblivion...  They only
>get mention on Page 8 in the History of the universe section when the
>narrative is talking about "Grandfather".  As a matter of fact the Droyne
>don't even rate a mention as a minor race.  I dunno, I always liked the
>little guys...
>
>Any thoughts?

One reason to list the Vilani, Solomani and Zhodani separately; the Solomani 
Hypothesis has yet to be proven in the Year 0, so everybody is a separate 
species (disregard that interbreeding!).  As for where the winged ones are; I 
don't know.  Maybe the Droyne (as opposed to the Chirpers) are yet to be 
discovered in Year 0?

Steve Charlton
Vice-Chairman, SPCCD (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Chirpers and 
Droyne)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:12:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much like the
> Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were there first, they
> (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we don't want to look like we're
> copying.

Interesting.  Even though Traveller did it first, you have to avoid being 
associated with more recent material.  Yeesh.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:58:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks 

At 14:58 9/6/96 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>The specialist grades 5-9 were eliminated in 1985.  Specialists were MOS's
>like muechanic, cook, finace corps, etc.  The Army kept Spec 4 to keep from
>having a glut of Corporals (who are NCOs, and have legal authority to give
>orders) running around.

Guess I need to get the second edition of my refence book. :-)

>>O8      General of the Army 5*    
>
>The last General of the Army was Omar Bradley.  The rank hasn't been used in
>nearly 40 years.       

True enough, but the rank still exists as far as I know, just no one to fill it.

>>Not not being military and all my consultants :-) are Army or Navy I have no
>>idea about the "Mgy" abbreviation, Marine E9 Mgy Sergeant.  Any
>enlightenment?
>
>Master Gunnery Sergeant.  Not sure how current the usage is though.

Failed my military knowledge task roll on this one.


>Welcome to the jungle.. how about them near-c rocks?  :)
>+--------------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |


Thanks, I'll just avoid the rocks if its all the same to you :-P

LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
Nothing!  Nothing!  I've got absolutely nothing for sale.
"History of the World, Part I"
  


------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Sep 96 23:24:26 EDT
Subject: Aslan as MAJOR race...

	As I was working (ha, ha, ha... you should see my job in the Army...) and
had time to check out DGP's Alien guide #2 (Solomani/Aslan), I noted that the
Aslan DID NOT develope jump dirve on their own. They obtained it from the wreck
of the Solomani ship Pathfinder which crashed on Kyusu, was covered up by two
major clans from a third, and a hidden fact for over 3000 years. The reason was
that it would hurt Aslan honor to be called a minor race in the grand scheme of
things. The two clans believed that a third clan was developing it due to them
having research facilities away from major stellar bodies, but, was only
developing living conditions for space habitates. They only learned of the
existance from the wreck, the few survivors, and the work of Aslan females.
(thank god for women!) The Aslani HAD developed spaceflight, but not starflight.
They were only TL 8 at the time....
	The fact (and the dishonor) was only 'leaked' in 1109 to a group who was
sightseeing through the Aslani sphere and 'carefully' leaked by a well placed
Aslani opperator. I think I read that the group was Solomani... 
	
	(Pretty cool to keep an ilusion alive, but proves the limits one will go
to preserve ones self image...)

	Hope this helps........
	Jeff

	life is a minefield...


------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:26:41 -0400
Subject: Nobles per Goffin

Glenn:
    With such a closed minded attitude, you probably are a member of the Ine
Givar.  The premise of noblesse oblige and the sincerity in the founding of
the Third Imperium is a premise of Traveller canon.... don't cloud the
issue... if you want your nobles to behave as such, so be it... but don't
expect others, let alone canon, to follow it.

------------------------------

From: "Paul W. Kestner" <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 03:08:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Deep space comets and stuff

Quote from: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Vol 1996 / 383
 Subject: Re: HEPlaR vs Thrust Plate tactics 

> 
> Excuse me. A comet is a body *kilometers* across. Any fleet that can't
> be refueled by several cubic kilometers of ice is *damned* big.
> 
> One displacement ton is 14 m^3. One cubic kilometer is 1e9 m^3. That's
> over 70 *million* displacement tons. And water ice has a lot more
> hydrogen per unit volume than LH2. A cubic meter of water or ice has a
> mass of roughly 1 tonne. 1/9th of that is hydrogen. So, one cubic
> kilometer of ice is 1e9/9 tons of hydrogen. Or 111 million tons of
> Hydrogen.
> 
> How big is your fleet? :-)
>

  If I go thru the trouble of using a stageing base, it is because I
think the system is defended.
  So.. Very big fleet.. all available warships within logistics capibilities.
  I 'jump' on defended systems in overwhelming force to,
    a: Ensure victory.
    b: Get that victory in as short a time as possiable.
    c: Crush the enemy (the ships you destroy today, while you have advantage,
       you do not have to fight tomorrow during the counter-attack).
    d: Lower my own loses.
  But the reasons of how and / or why to mass a BIG fleet digress from
the discussion.  Let us just say I'm power mad and leave it there.

> 
> And as I said figure 10 km as "average" size for an icy body out there.
>

   I would have thought 250 meters to 2.5 kilometers 'core'.
   Still, as you point out, that is a lot of hydrogen.
   Sorry, well... not really, but ya' caught me ;-]

>
> Then consider that larger bodies are easier to detect.
>    But they are so very very far apart, and thus rare to find.
   And they are hard to spot also.   No Infra-Red sig to speak of.
   The hydrogen slush and other wierd chemicals that form by 
gasious deposit covering the solid core would act as 'radar' or
'EMS' absorbent stealth covering.
  Gigantic targets with EMM covering, coasting, equates to
a minus 3 diff mod (FF+S rules), a good chance to get a target
detection at 13 light-seconds, (128 hexes FF+S rules)
using a strenght 16 sensor.   The rules do not cover when
something is first picked up on sensors as a blip, so how
about 4 times the rated range.  This would give comet detecting
range at a little under a light-minite.  Vice the couple of 
light-hours you were probially thinking of.
  So.. It gets down to how dense do you think there are cometary
bodies in deep space (vice the Comet Cloud).   One per cubic light-
hour, or one per cubic light day.   I lean towards the light-day
end of the scales.



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:25:24 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about

> >	I was thinking about the problem of misjumping into an empty
> >parsec when a thought occured:  Could you not simply crawl into some low
> >berths, turn your radio up to maximum power with a distress beacon, and
> >wait it out?  
> 
> Sure you could, and a repeating radio locator beacon would not be hard to
> rig.  And it would allow those "blade of grass" and "Needle in the haystack"
> searches to work a bit better.
> 
> Also, if one misjumps into "empty" space, usually your ship has enough
> Maneuver Fuel to make a significant fraction of Lightspeed before fuel runs
> out (it doesn't take very long), pop everyone into low berths, and COAST
> back to civ. 

Actually, the original suggestion is far better than accelerating to
near c (even if possible without trashin the ship on a dust grain).

As was suggested, it doesn't put you more than a few parsecs from
another world in most cases, right?  So it takes 6.5 years to get to
a world 2 parsecs away (the distress call), then help arrives in a
week, you're home in another week.  If you accelerate to near c, it
still takes around 6.5 years, but now you're moving near c, so any
rescue attempt must also match your velocity!  Months at a few gs.,
then months to slow down, thn a week in jump.  If you accelerate to
midpoint, then slow down, the trip will take longer than the 6.5
years plus 2 weeks anyway.

Send an SOS, then take a nap is the best way to go.
\
- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 02:56:44 -0400
Subject: Apology

        I'm sorry if my posting the UUENCODED character sheet GIFS ticked
anyone off. I simply wanted to pass them along to everyone and couldn't seem
to get them uploaded to anywhere. I hereby promise not to do that again.
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:29:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Newbie on the list

Hello Folks,
  I recently came across the existance of this list, and decided to try to
and join it.  I suspect that I will be "lurking" for a time before
becoming a contributing list member...

  What has caused me to join this list is my enjoyment of Traveller from
my college days in 1978.  I originally gave up on the game system
(traveller classic or TC) due to it's inelegant handling as time went on.
I later came across Megatraveller, but saw too many problems with the
system as well (ie bad rules writing etc...) and failed to use that
system.  When Traveller the New Era came out, I enjoyed it for a time, but
the gaming group I was with didn't like the combat system used by GDW's
TNE.  Now, Traveller the 4th edition is out, and it seems to have improved
somewhat to the point that I can enjoy it again.
  Having said that, I am disappointed that there were as many typos and
lackluster pasteup work in the Fourth edition, first printing  copy of
Traveller by Imperium Games.  However, the potential is there, I fully
expect to support Imperium Games with my hard earned dollars <grin>.  What
I am asking is, can anyone tell me what experience they have had with the
ship to ship combat rules unveiled at Gencon?  What threads of discussion
has there been regarding T4 (so that I might look for them in the
digests)?  Has anyone heard anything about how to convert the weapon stats
from CT to T4?  Will we (the Traveller public) be able to use the
MEGATRAVELLER stuff, the STRIKER rules for creating equipment, the FF&S
stuff for equipment in the T4 environment?
  Also, has anyone written alternative rules for economics regarding the
fixed prices for interstellar travel (ie 1,000 cr per ton of cargo, 10,000
cr for high passage, etc)?  Has anyone explored the idea of making the
price guide based not only upon revenue producing volume on the ship, but
also upon distance travelled, and/or time taken to travel?  I ask this
because I took the time to "solo" play merchants using jump 1, then jump
2, and so on, ships to see if they were economically feasible - then
discovered that they were not feasible past jump 1...
  Well, I have unloaded enough on this list.  Any help from anyone on this
list would be appreciated.  If anyone knows of the existance of an
official published listing for the TROJAN REACH sector just "south" of the
SPINWARD MARCHES, and north of the RIFTSPAN REACHES, I would also
appreciate it.  I will be running my first Traveller campaign in almost 10
years this Saturday, with the players attempting to plant a colony in the
section of space between Aslan territory, and the Imperial Territory in
TROJAN REACH - with a Mr. Burke like corporate manager (from Aliens if
you remember the sleeze <grin>) attempting to advance in the corporation,
but at the expense of the players and NPC colonists...

            Hal


------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:56:39 +0900
Subject: Army Ranks

Pay
Grade   Army                                 Rank Insignia
Enlisted
E1      Private PV1                          None
E2      Private PV2                          1 chevron point up
E3      Private 1st Class PFC                1 chevron up, 1 chevron down 
("rocker")
E4      Corporal / Specialist 4 CPL/SP4      2 chev up / upside-down 
"negative space" between an imaginary chev up and rocker with the Dept. of 
Army seal (I think)
E5      Sergeant SGT                         3 up
E6      Staff Sergeant SSG                   3 up, 1 rocker
E7      Sergeant First Class SFC             3 up, 2 rockers
E8      Master / First Sergeant MSG/1SG      3 up, 3 rockers / same w/star 
in middle
E9      Sergeant Major SGM                   3 up, 3 rockers w/wreath in 
middle

You forgot Command Sergeant Major CSM E-9 (battalion equivalent of a First 
Sergeant) (3 up 3 rockers wreath with star), and Sergeant Major of the Army 
SMA E-9 (only one of those) (3 up 3 rockers 2 stars).  I may be mistaken on 
some of stars/wreaths - it's been a long time.

Warrant Officers
W1      Warrant Officer WO1                  silver bar w/1 black square
W234    Chief Warrant Officers WO2 - WO4     silver bar w/2-4 black 
squares

Officers
O1      2nd Lieutenant 2LT                   gold bar
O2      1st Lieutenant 1LT                   silver bar
O3      Captain CPT                          2 silver bars
O4      Major MAJ                            gold oak (?) leaf
O5      Lieutenant Colonel LTC               silver oak leaf
O6      Colonel COL                          silver eagle
O7      Brigadier General BG                 1 silver star
O8l     Major General MG                     2 silver stars (in a row)
O8      Lieutenant General LTG               3 silver stars "
O8      General GEN                          4 silver stars "
O8      General of the Army ?                5 silver stars in a pentagon

I added the official rank abbreviations because no-one ever spells out the 
rank names except when writing to civilians.  The abbreviations are 
different for each branch of the service, including the fact that Army rank 
abbreviations must be in all capitals, unlike other branches.

>The specialist grades 5-9 were eliminated in 1985.

Yeah, I joined that year and I got to see a few in Fort Jackson before they 
made the change.  Slang for Spec 4 is "Private E-4."  That pretty much sums 
up what it feels like to be one.  In '88 there were rumors that Spec 4 would 
dissappear too, but it never happened.  I got CPL from holding a SGT 
position for the required length of time.  Hard stripes sure look better 
than that goofy shield-thing they use for SP4 insignia.

If you're interested, I could dig up the Japanese Self-Defense Force rank 
tables.

Armand



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:57:04 -0400
Subject: On a happier note...

 I ran my first adventure for the year 0 game tonight. After the characters
got their ship trashed by a collision with an asteroid, they got a patron
who fixed it up for them in return for their working as independant scouts
to help survey the rest of Core subsector. They found this world with about
240 people on it. An Aslan scout vessel which had misjumped into the system
had crashed there. All the females were killed, leaving 6 young Aslan males
with no leadership. The situation was resolved without bloodshed. Everything
after the characters left the planet with their newly repaired ship was
off-the-cuff. I didn't even get to test out the combat rules! :)
        It was fun! There's a few holes in the new game-for instance, the
armor descriptions don't always tell you how much the armor costs (Diplo
Armor in particular) and I think there's a table missing about that on pg
80. But we worked around that and had a good time.
        Next week, maybe I'll get to run RUBICON CROSS if they go where I
hope they will!
        Allen

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 02:43:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Apology

On 09/07/96 at 02:56 AM,  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
said:

>        I'm sorry if my posting the UUENCODED character sheet GIFS ticked
>anyone off. I simply wanted to pass them along to everyone and couldn't
>seem to get them uploaded to anywhere. I hereby promise not to do that
>again.

Allan,

It didn't tick me off, but I didn't get the character sheets either. I'd
like to receive them, but please send them to my email address directly.
<g>
 
BTW, when your message got to me it was empty.  The digest I got that
included your uuencoded files chopped off at the point where they would
have been too.  The problem was them coming *through* the listserver to get
to me, I think.  

Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:08:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #391

>On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 at 14:20:24, Stuart L. Dollar Wrote:

>> It occured to me that something was missing, something has changed.
>> Where are the Droyne?  The original major "six races" were: Humans

>Where they always have been...  Remember though, that the Droyne
>were not acknowledged as being a MAJOR race until later during the
>history of the 3rd Imperium...  They were still considered a minor
>race in year 0...  Remember the Droyne/Ancient/Grandfather connection
>wouldn't have been made then either...

Ok, I'll accept this as a possible explanation for this omission as it
appears for the time being that the main T4 Timeline will be presented from
"year 0" viewpoint...  And that it is possible that for people within that
given time frame, early within the 3rd Imperium, may not have made the
connection between Ancient and Droyne races.  Additionally, I'll accept
that in this timeframe that the Aslan would still be considered a Major
Race by the this viewpoint.

>Previous canon suggested that xenoarchaeologists DURING the 3rd
>Imperium advanced the Droyne as a Major race due to the similarities
>in culture across several worlds spanning numerous sectors, and the
>discovery of artifact jump drives...IIRC...

I'll accept that previous canon...  That the connection between Ancient,
Droyne, and Chirper races were discovered in the time frame that the
Chirper's were introduced within the rules (circa Adventure 2 - Research
Station Gamma) which would put it in late 1106 or early 1107, if my memory
isn't totally shot.

If my memory hasn't left me, I believe that the Chirpers were introduced
_before_ the Droyne (and after the Ancients) in any case.  I seem to
remember that the term "Six Races" (as well as the first _grand scale_ map
of the Imperium) first appeared, interestingly enough, in an early issue of
"Different Worlds" magazine (Issue 9 if memory serves).

HOWEVER, the connection between Ancients and Droyne _is_ made _within_ the
T4 rules book on Page 8 in the history of the universe section when it
discusses the Ancients and that they were Droyne.  After that fleeting
reference the Droyne are not mentioned at all, not as a Major or Minor
Race.  I kinda feel that they have been short changed in a way, as I always
thought them to be an interesting race.  More alien than the Vargr, Aslan,
and perhaps even the K'Kree.  Pastoral, but one gene mutation from
achieving Grandfather prowess once again.

I'm would not be at all suprised if they were intentionally left out of the
narrative.  And if it was intentional that Marc & Co. have a perfectly good
reason to do so, and will reveal these reasons in due course.

However, I for one hope that the Droyne have a place and a role in T4.

Chuck

P.S.  At least I'm not sticking up for the Primordials!!!

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #392
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 7 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 393

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Deck Plans Rights
         2. Re: Thoughts on trade
         3. Re: Marine Officers
         4. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks
         5. Re: Book to Consider
         6. Re: Thoughts on trade
         7. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
         8. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
         9. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
        10. Gvurrdon Sector anyone?
        11. Re: Apology
        12. SURVEY: Browsers and Stuff
        13. HTML Advice
        14. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
        15. Re: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
        16. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
        17. Java Programming

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:35:01 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans Rights

> When it comes to standard deck plans such as the Type S, do I have to
> get permission somewhere to stick it on a web page, or do I just
> acknowledge source?

  If youre talking about scanning and putting it up, then yes, you need
permission.

> I've seen a number out there, so I was wondering.

  A number of web pages or a number of deck plans?

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:05:43 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 96-09-04 22:58:55 EDT, you write:
>
> << >I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
>  >interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
>  >time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
>  >gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
>  >means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
>  >into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it.
>   >>
>
> So, I can ship 100 tons of Unobtanium from there to here for perhaps 100,000
> credits (shipping cost of Cr1,000 per ton) plus the cost of buying the
> material there. Free-lance shippers might be able to give a better rate;
> corporate owned ships might do even better.
>
> If I can get unobtanium locally for less than that price, no one is going to
> ship it from there to here. On the other hand, if our local world (research
> station with no local resources, or vacuum world with no agriculture) needs
> something it can't produce locally, then we will see some commodity shipping,
> won't we? It just depends on supply and demand.

True enough. It's just that large shipments of "raw materials" will be
unlikely. The values of just about anything is going to be more
dependent on the "structure" given it than on the cost of the materials.

And a lot of things are likely to be the result of telling a
fabrication unit (faber) "Here are some specs. Make me some of the
item". At TLs below 16 these probably are *big* units, so they'd
correspond to a factory. So "some" will be thousands or even millions.

At higher tech levels the size will come down unit you can carry the
unit. At that point society gets *really* weird. Players who find such
a unit (maybe Grandfather forgot it? :-) will have something along the
lines of Aladin's lamp. Right up to the point where it needs
maintenance. :-)

That could get real inconvenient if they'd been depending on it. You
need *at least* three such units to be able to depend on them. That way
if one breaks, you take the part from one working unit and copy it in
the other working unit. With stored specs, you can get by with two. 

But I digress...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:40:06 PST
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

In mail you write:

>>I used this to demonstrate why battledress is not a cure all.  I had a
>>friend build a TL14 squad in battledress, then I built an unarmored
>>company for the same funds.  All my troops were armed with RAM grenades. 
>>While I took heavy casulties, my return fire destroyed the squad. 
>
> Your troops didn't break and run?  I would think that the morale checks
> your men had to make every time they saw one of their stands burn up from
> a plasma gun hit would take their toll.  You'd have to roll a morale check
> on most units every turn; they're more likely to break than to hit and
> penetrate. 

Check your history. There have been a number of times when highly
displined infantry was *necessary*, as the only way to survive was to
absorb some nasty causalties to get close enough to the "super weapon"
of the time. Troops that broke died to a man. 

Old example. A pike square that breaks while cavalry around is *dead*.
So the the experienced (or well trained) troops would absorb a lot of
losses from the occasional artillery piece, and from manuevers like the
caracole, simply because the alternative was for *all* of then to die.

That's why training, morale, and espirit d'corps are so important. They
make the difference between an arny that holds and a mob that breaks.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:04:08 PST
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks

In mail you write:

> Pay
> Grade   Army                              Marines
> E1      Private                           Private
> E2      Private                           Private 1st Class
> E3      Private 1st Class                 Lance Corporal
> E4      Corporal Specialist 4             Corporal
> E5      Sergeant Specialist 5             Sergeant
> E6      Staff Sergeant Spec 6             Staff Sergeant
> E7      Sergeant 1st Class Spec 7         Gunnery Sergeant  
> E8      1st / Master Sergeant Spec 8      1st / Master Sergeant
> E9      Sergeant Major Specialist 9       Sgt Major / Mgy Sergeant
> W1      Warrant Officer                   Warrant Officer     
> W234    Chief Warrant Officers            Chief Warrant Officers
> O1      2nd Lieutenant                    2nd Lieutenant   
> O2      1st Lieutenant                    1st Lieutenant
> O3      Captain                           Captain
> O4      Major                             Major
> O5      Lieutenant Colonel                Lieutenant Colonel  
> O6      Colonel                           Colonel
> O7      Brigadier General *               Brigadier General * 
> O8l     Major General **                  Major General ** 
> O8      Lieutenant General ***            Lieutenant General ***
> O8      General ****                      General ****        
> O8      General of the Army 5*            ---
>
>
> Not not being military and all my consultants :-) are Army or Navy I have no
> idea about the "Mgy" abbreviation, Marine E9 Mgy Sergeant.  Any 
> enlightenment?

First things first. All the Army ranks that have specialist are
actually two *seperate* ranking tables. That is, it goes like this for
rank: 

Grade   Normal			Specialist
E1      Private
E2      Private
E3      Private 1st Class
E4      Corporal		Specialist 4
E5      Sergeant		Specialist 5
E6      Staff Sergeant		Specialist 6
E7      Sergeant 1st Class	Specialist 7
E8      1st / Master Sergeant	Specialist 8
E9      Sergeant Major		Specialist 9

The "specialist" ranks are a way to reward increased skill in technical
areas *without* putting the specialists in the "chain of command". 

Marine E9s are "Master Gunnery Sergeants".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:56:04 PST
Subject: Re: Book to Consider

In mail you write:

> As long as you guys are talking about Tom Clancy books, I have a book
> that you might like to look for.  "The Writers Guide to Creating a
> Science Fiction Universe" by George Ochoa and Jeffrey Osier.

> It is great for those of us who are not physics/chemistry/astronomy
> majors to fill in some of the blanks for our game.

Suggestion for IG. check out the several books in this field and if
there's a standout, see if you can cut a deal with the pulisher and
either carry it in your catalog, or get it offered to game shops.
Prefferably with a sticker saying something like "Traveller Referee
Aid" added.

They'd get extra sales, you might get a percentage (or not) and you'll
be giving *good* ideas to refs!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:16:28 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on trade

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes...
>
> S::>I'm sort of the resident heretic on this. I *really* don't see that
>  ::>interstellar *commodity* trading is going to be all that common. By the
>  ::>time you have fusion power, you no longer *need* "ores". So what if
>  ::>gadolinium is found at only one part per million in ordinary rock? That
>  ::>means that if you feed a million tons of rock (about a 64 meter cube)
>  ::>into fusion torch extraction unit, you'll get a ton of it. And you'll
>  ::>get similar amounts of the other "rare" elements. Plus lots and lots of
>  ::>oxygen, silicon, titanium, aluminum, etc.
>
>  This, of course, assumes that there is such a thing as a fusion
>  torch extraction unit at the TL of the demand planet.  Fusion-
>  based processes have a slight problem that I can see
>  immediately - fusion creates _plasma_, which is lots and lots
>  of stripped ions of all types, and then does interesting things
>  to the plasma, like taking a good chunk of any available
>  hydrogen ions, and converting them to one-fourth as many helium
>  ions - or other combinations.  And what keeps the elemental
>  gadolinium from recombining with the elemental oxygen?  What's
>  the mechanism (even theoretically) for separating out the
>  stuff? And how expensive is it going to be to run this fusion
>  extraction process on that million tonnes of random rock?  Why
>  won't it be cheaper to mine it from a planet two or three
>  parsecs away, where it's as common as sand, and can be obtained
>  in an easily refinable (with lo tech) form in relatively large
>  quantities?

Ok, it works like this. At plasma temperatures, you can use electric
and magnetic fields to sort ions by charge/mass ratio. Sort of an
overgrown mass spectrograph. (And yes, this setup *will* seperate
isotopes at the same time it seperates elements!)

This was one of the three techniques used for isotope seperation at Oak
Ridge during the Manhattan Project. All three worked.

You do *not* attempt to raise the *pressure* to the levels required for
fusion, there's no need. This makes field control easier. You actually
want the *temperature* at the point where the seperation starts to be
higher than most fusion reactors would use, but this is not a problem
as you don't need fusion pressure levels. You want the high temp
because there is a temp (not all *that* unreasonable) at which no
molecular bonds can form. So you don't have to worry about the ions
combining.

The main expense is power, which is pretty cheap what with fusion+. 

These units will likely start out as ways of disposing of toxic wastes,
and re-refining nuclear waste, and various materials that are a pain to
deal with otherwise. But once you have them, it'll rapidly become
obvious that while ore does give a higher yield, you can operate them
to produce something *common* (like silicon or aluminum) at a
"breakeven" cost, and then have all the "trace impurities" in whatever
you feed thru be pure profit.

Note that there are several metals that are *solely* produced in an
analogous manner. That is, the cheapest way to produce them is from the
"waste stream" of plants refining something else! 

>  Seems to me I recall that nuclear (fission) power would bring
>  us to an era of nearly-free power forever.  Seems to me that if
>  your scenario were accurate, everyone who had a few million
>  bucks would be investing in the development of fusion power -
>  or even in the preliminaries that would be needed, like
>  superconductors, and supermagnets.  Seems to me that that's not
>  happening.

You over-estimate the foresight of investors. Especially ones with MBA
degrees. :-(


> S::>But among other things, this means that one of the *cheapest* materials
>  ::>is quartz glass (silicon dioxide). It'd be the primary output of of an
>  ::>extractor (actually, it'd be silicon and oxygen in plasma states, but
>  ::>it's easy to combine them). Aluminum is the cheapest metal, with
>  ::>titanium not that much more expensive. Iron is less abundant, so it'll
>  ::>cost nore. But it'll still be cheap.
>
>  Check your assumptions - remember that fusion is hot enough to
>  vaporize just about anything we can think of - it is, after
>  all, what's driving that big power plant that's 150,000,000 km
>  off the New York coastline...

What assumptions? After you have the elements in *seperate* plasma
streams, you want to cool them anyway (and recover a fair chunk of the
energy that went into heating them in the process). Pretty soon you
have the plasma streams down to temperatures in the range used by
"plasmas sprayers", which means you can aim a stream of silicon ions
and a stream of oxygen ions at the same point and let them combine into
silicon dioxide. You can deposit it slowly, for some purposes that want
high quality crystals, or *fast* for applications that just want high
purity quartz glass. For the latter, you can deposit it at speeds that
would almost make someone think you were *pouring* it. This part is
*current* tech, it's just not used for everyday purposes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:00:21 PST
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much like
>> the Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were there first,
>> they (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we don't want to
>> look like we're copying.

> Interesting.  Even though Traveller did it first, you have to avoid
> being associated with more recent material.  Yeesh.

The alternative is to look to some folks like anpother TSR, using
lawyers instead of quality to corner the market.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:26:18 PST
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

In mail you write:

>         I was thinking about the problem of misjumping into an empty
> parsec when a thought occured:  Could you not simply crawl into some low
> berths, turn your radio up to maximum power with a distress beacon, and
> wait it out?  Assuming you're anywhere near civilization, another ship
> should enter the parsec sometime (e.g. a jump-1 ship making multiple jumps
> to cross a 2-3 parsec gap).  After about a year and a half your signal
> will have reached the far corners of the parsec, so anyone jumping into it
> should pick it up.  I'm making a number of assumptions here, of course,
> and I'm wondering how plausible they are: 
>
> 1. A low berth can run on minimal powerplant power and/or emergency
> batteries for several years.  I'm pretty sure this one is supported by
> canon (after all, what fun are low berths if you can't find people from
> previous decades/centuries in 'em? :-)
> 2. The powerplant will run that long (assuming you need it to maintain the
> low berths) on the fuel it has.  I'm thinking running the plant on "low"
> and using a trickle of its usual output.
> 3. Your radio signal can be picked up across light-year distances.

It's this one that'll kill you. See below.

>         Another idea which follows from this:  Could you send a radio or
> laser signal to a nearby system?  I've heard that even a 200 MW laser from
> earth could be picked up by alien civilizations many light years away
> (it's sort of a do-it-yourself SETI idea someone came up with :-).  So
> maybe you could tightbeam a message at someone?  Or would a broadcast
> message be better? 

Well, to start with, a 200 MW laser is  not exactly an an off the shelf
item right now, and when it is, it'll be considered a *weapon*, not a
comm unit. Modulating it is going to be kinda difficult.

For radio, the problem is the inverse square law. A radio designed to
be strong enough to pick up on normal receivers at 1 AU (150 million km
or 93 million miles) is going to have a signal strength 43 *billion*
times weaker at 1 parsec. To put it another way, a 1 MW transmitter
will have a signal strength of 4e-18 W/m^2 at 1 AU. At 1 parsec it'd be
8e-29 W/m^2. You'd get a stronger signal from one of those 500
milliwatt toy walkie-talkies on *pluto*. 

Sure, the signal is theoretically capable of being picked up. But
that's with things like the Arecibo dish, which is a km or two across!

Broadcast signals aren't going to work. So you need *beamed* signals.
Which means being able to aim them accurately enough *and* pump enough
power into them to be noticed. 

The power is what kills you this time. If you have enough fuel to put
out the signal for the several years it'd take, you have enough for a
jump!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 08:17:01 -0700
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

Hmmm, I don't buy this line of reasoning.  T4 aslan should look like CT 
aslan should look like MT aslan etc.  So what if Wing Commander has 
cat-like aliens.  They probably didn't worry about the fact that their 
aliens looked lke Traveller aslan, of, for that matter, Niven's Kzinti.

Bottom line - Michael Vilardi's aslan look right!

How about the aslan on page 42 of Twilight's Peak?????

Ensign John

------------------------------

From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 08:25:36 -0700
Subject: Gvurrdon Sector anyone?

Hi all, 

I was wondering if anyone published a sector map and data for Gvurrdon Sector?  
Is it available on the Net anywhere????
Thanks,
John

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:45:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apology

At 02:43 AM 9/7/96 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
>Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?
>


I believe I did.  I will attempt to uudecode them this morning and see about
attaching them to my WWW page somehow...
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:56:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SURVEY: Browsers and Stuff

Hi folks,

I hope you don't mind the imposition, but I'd like to do a survey of what
web browsers and computer platforms folks are working with.  I am planning a
major overhaul of my web pages and there are some features I'd like to add
to it.   What I am discovering is there is a vast range of capabilities that
folks have or don't have that will need addressing.   For instance, if very
few people can deal with netscape frames, I'll leave them out, java script,
java, etc. accordingly.

Anyway, just reply to the message back to ME ONLY.  Please don't send your
replies to the lists.  Make sure that SURVEY:  is in the subject header for
your reply.

- -------------------8< snip 8<----------------------------------

Browser Type Used:      
                 __ Netscape
                 __ MS Explorer
                 __ Other:               Specifiy______________

Browser Revision Level: _________

Operating System
                 __ DOS
                 __ Dos/Windows 3.1
                 __ Windows 95
                 __ Windows NT
                 __ UNIX
                 __ Other:              Specify

Hardware Platform
                 __ pre 386 PC Clone
                 __ 80386 based PC
                 __ 80486 based PC
                 __ Pentium
                 __ MAC
                 __ Sun/Sparc
                 __ IRIX
                 __ Other           Specify:

My Web Browser is:
(check all that apply) 
                __ Frames Capable
                __ VRML Capable
                __ Java Enabled
                __ Java Script Enabled

Comments:_______________________________________________________________


Thanking you in advance for your help and cooperation.
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Sep 1996 14:17:01 GMT
Subject: HTML Advice

I'm trying to configure my site so that you folks can download software, but
I'm having trouble with the HTML code.  Hopefully one of you can help me.

At the moment I have created a software page
(http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/software.html), which contains a
description of software, plus links to the software.  Only one piece of
software is there right now, until I get things working, then I will upload
another 7-8 programs.

I placed the software in the same directory as all my other Traveller
material.  From my home directory, this is <public_html/GamingClub>.  I then
tried using the tag:

<A
HREF="ftp://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin">MegaCharacter
II</A>

(MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin is the name of the file.)  When I try to access it
using Netscape, I get a message that www.interlog.com is refusing access.  

Any suggestions?

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:35:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Interesting.  Even though Traveller did it first, you have to avoid
> > being associated with more recent material.  Yeesh.
> 
> The alternative is to look to some folks like anpother TSR, using
> lawyers instead of quality to corner the market.

Sure, but it's ironic the way it turned out.  Go to all that effort to 
create a alien race, then you have to change their appearance because 
someone comes along /after/ you and uses a similar appearance for their 
alien.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Sep 1996 14:28:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

>In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much like the
>Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were there first, they
>(Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we don't want to look like
we're
>copying.

I'd rather see the Aslan look like _Traveller_ Aslan.  If this Wing Commander
(whatever it is) copied the style, why should IG change just to suit them? 
Remembering that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I'd vote for
the traditional Traveller Aslan.

Knowing that at least one of the Traveller team listens to Stan Rogers music,
remember his comments on "Barrett's Privateers").

For those of you who don't know Stan Rogers, he was a Canadian folk
singer/songwriter.  He wrote a song called "Barrett's Privateers", which was
so popular and widely sung that it was often attributed as "trad." in the
credits.  He was both flattered that he had written such a popular song and
annoyed that a lot of people who liked it didn't know he wrote it.

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 07:43:27 -0600
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

Scott Ripley wrote:
> 
> At 12:22 PM 9/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi all.
> >
> >       I was thinking about the problem of misjumping into an empty
> >parsec when a thought occured:  Could you not simply crawl into some low
> >berths, turn your radio up to maximum power with a distress beacon, and
> >wait it out?
> 
> Sure you could, and a repeating radio locator beacon would not be hard to
> rig.  And it would allow those "blade of grass" and "Needle in the haystack"
> searches to work a bit better.
> 

This is true but has already been addressed in an earlier posting, so I
won't go over the problems with laser/radio beacons here.

> Also, if one misjumps into "empty" space, usually your ship has enough
> Maneuver Fuel to make a significant fraction of Lightspeed before fuel runs
> out (it doesn't take very long), pop everyone into low berths, and COAST
> back to civ.
> 

This is true only if you're using Newtonian physics, which work at low speeds.
In reality, you have to consider Einsteinian physics.  I'm no expert but I
do know that, for a given speed v, the amount of energy needed to get to
the next speed increment v1 is a factor of the mass of the ship and the original
speed v.  

It is well known that the mass of an object increases as its speed increases.
I doubt very much whether a 6G maneuver drive, for example, could get anywhere
near light speed before running out of fuel.

If you like, I can dig up the appropriate formulae to show.


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Sep 1996 14:43:25 GMT
Subject: Java Programming

I have a couple of Grade 12/OAC programming students interested in writing
Traveller software using Java.  Seeing as I just started learning Java myself
(and haven't found a free Java for the Mac yet), I can't give them any
support.

Would someone on the TML be willing to be an email resource for them?  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #393
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 7 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 394

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Army Ranks
         2. Advanced Character Generation Rules
         3. Re: Major Race Mutation
         4. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
         5. Re: Gvurrdon Sector anyone?
         6. UUENCODED Character Sheets?
         7. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs
         8. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
         9. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about  subsector...)
        10. Re: Apology
        11. Re: Java Programming
        12. Re: HTML Advice
        13. Re: HTML Advice
        14. Re: Java Programming
        15. Potential problems with running T4
        16. Re: Marine Officers
        17. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 
        18. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
        19. Re: UUENCODED Character Sheets?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 08:20:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Army Ranks

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp> said:
 
>Pay
>Grade   Army                                 Rank Insignia
>Enlisted

>E4      Corporal / Specialist 4 CPL/SP4      2 chev up / upside-down 
>"negative space" between an imaginary chev up and rocker with the Dept. of 
>Army seal (I think)

That's as good an explanation as any.

>You forgot Command Sergeant Major CSM E-9 (battalion equivalent of a First 
>Sergeant) (3 up 3 rockers wreath with star), and Sergeant Major of the Army 
>SMA E-9 (only one of those) (3 up 3 rockers 2 stars).  I may be mistaken on 
>some of stars/wreaths - it's been a long time.

First Sergeant (1SG) three up, three down, diamond in the middle
Sergeant Major (SGM) 3 up, 3 down. star in middle
Command Sergeant Major (CSM) 3 up, 3 down, star in wreath in the middle
Sergeant Major of the Army (SMA) 3 up, 3 down, two stars in the middle.

>O8l     Major General MG                     2 silver stars (in a row)
>O8      Lieutenant General LTG               3 silver stars "
>O8      General GEN                          4 silver stars "
>O8      General of the Army ?                5 silver stars in a pentagon

The generals keep advanving in pay grade.. a LTG is O-9 for example.

>The specialist grades 5-9 were eliminated in 1985.

>Yeah, I joined that year and I got to see a few in Fort Jackson before they 
>made the change.  Slang for Spec 4 is "Private E-4."

We called them "Super Private."

>That pretty much sums up what it feels like to be one.  In '88 there were
>rumors that Spec 4 would dissappear too, but it never happened.  I got CPL
>from holding a SGT position for the required length of time.  Hard stripes
>sure look better than that goofy shield-thing they use for SP4 insignia.

Not only do they look better, but their is that special thrill of locking
the jerks you used to room with up a parade-rest..  Corporal: Instant
Asshole, just add stripes!

>If you're interested, I could dig up the Japanese Self-Defense Force rank 
>tables.

Please do!




+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Jason E English <jeest5+@pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:32:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Advanced Character Generation Rules

Konicih-wa, fellow Traveller buffs.
   I'm wondering if you might be able to help me out. I'm trying to put
together as many sets of advanced chraracter generation rules as I can.
The one I have to date are:

Army/Marines	Book 4, MT Player's Manual p 50-51
Navy		Book 5, MT Player's Manual p 54-55
Scouts		Book 6, MT Player's Manual p 58-59
Merchants	Book 7, MT Player's Manual p 62-63
Flyers		COACC, p 94-95
Pirates		"Pirates of Space" by Joe Walsh
Belters		"Belters: Mining in the Far Future" by Joe Walsh
Spies		"Spies" by Joe Walsh

   (All of these are downloadble from Goran Damberg's Traveller site, and
are very well done, BTW)

IRIS Agents	"Generating IRIS Agents for MegaTraveller"
		   by Charles E. Gannon
		   (Challenge 35, p 35-38)
Law Enforcers	"There When You Need Them"
		   by Steven Brinich and James Schwar
		   (Challenge 30, p 34-36)
Scientists	"Scientists" by William Connors
		   (Challenge 29, p 28-34)
Journalists	"Journalists and the Stars" by Anders Blixt
		   (Challenge 27, p 44-45)

   I'm paticularly looking for a set of advanced rules for Wet
Navy/Sailors.
   Thanks for your help.

Laugh While You Can!
Jason "Banzai" English
(jeest5@pitt.edu OR Visit Banzai's Bunkhouse at
"http://www.pitt.edu/~jeest5/index.html")




------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:05:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Major Race Mutation

On 6 Sep 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
> 
> >"By Imperial reckoning, any race that invented the jump drive and therefore
> >achieved star travel on its own is termed a _major race_.  Consequentially,
> >any intelligent alien species that never developed that technology
> >independently is a _minor race_.  There are exactly seven major races; the
> >Vilani, then the Aslan, Hivers, K'Kree, Solomani, Vargr, and the Zhodani."
> >(unusal wording reproduced exactly, _underscores_ indicate italic type in
> >T4)
> >
> >It occured to me that something was missing, something has changed.  Where
> >are the Droyne?  The original major "six races" were: Humans (with it's
> >three branches), Aslan, Droyne, Hivers, K'Kree, and Vargr.  It appears that
> >in T4 that the Droyne have been demoted almost into oblivion...  They only
> >get mention on Page 8 in the History of the universe section when the
> >narrative is talking about "Grandfather".  As a matter of fact the Droyne
> >don't even rate a mention as a minor race.  I dunno, I always liked the
> >little guys...

	The previously published Traveller material on the Droyne states 
that it wasn't until the Imperium was going for a while that the records 
got put together well enough to reconize that the Droyne (who did not 
maintain intersteller travel) were actually ONE species.  If I recall 
correctly, this was in about 500 IMP (?).  So, for T4 purposes, the 
Droyne are a low tech minor race (at least for Milleau 0).

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:31:04 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

Moin Charles Collin,

> 3. Your radio signal can be picked up across light-year distances.

	Taking a Jayhawk, the radio only has 30,000 km, the
	maser only 1000 AU, but perhaps you can programm your
	fire controll to send SOS 4 times a days using your
	106 MJ Laser to any near system.

	It would be good if you have priest on board ;-)

> 	Hey, here's a weird notion:  maybe part of the scout/navy's job
> would be to look for distressed ships in empty space.  They'd jump around
> in say a 1 lightyear grid with very sensitive radio/EMS sensors looking
> for signals from misjumpers.  

	10% of ship & cargo, is typical from Loyds. Normaly this
	is dividet 3% captain, 3% officiers, 3% crew, 1% owner
	of the rescue ship.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:12:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Gvurrdon Sector anyone?

On  7 Sep 96 at 8:25, John & Lisa Macek spewed:

> Hi all, 
> 
> I was wondering if anyone published a sector map and data for
> Gvurrdon Sector?  Is it available on the Net anywhere???? Thanks,
> John

GDW published a sector map as part of the original CT Alien Module.

Don't believe that you'll find it amongst the old DGP stuff on the 
ftp sites though... 
you might che
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: spritch@cinternet.net (Steven Pritchard)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:32:29 -0400
Subject: UUENCODED Character Sheets?

I got the file put together ok, but when I tried to decode it, my computer
said that it was either NOT a zip file, or it was corrupted.  Can anyone
post them to their webpage and save Allan from the headaches of tons of
flamemail?  I for one would love to get ahold of a copy of them, too!

Steve

P.S. Go Droyne!

spritch@cinternet.net
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:29:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs

To the comment that a laser weapon couldn't be used as a distress
signal---nonsense!  One, you could always modulate the power if
nothing else.  Two, as to it being dangerous (didn't the post say
something about it being seen as a weapon?), nah.  Not at lys away,
even with grav focusing.  That or use a maser commo device.  The
laser weapn would be better, though.  Actually, this might be a good
arguement for tunable lasers (assuming we don't redo the atmospheric
attenuation rules which favor x-ray lasers).  A tunable laser weapon
could be used in a FM mode for commo in emergencies.

First you'd spend some time figuring out where you are.  Then you'd
beam a laser signal (weapon, preferably) to the nearest *world* with
commo (your computer will have to adjust for the flight time of the
messege, and maybe raster the signal around a little).  Have it do
this automatically for a period of time equal to the world distance
(in ly), maybe once a day of dso after an inital burst (to conserve
power).  After this period of rebroadcast, the first signal should
arrive, so while you wait, broadcast on non beamed commo for them to
find you when they jump nearby (do this a little early so wherever
they jump in, they'll get the distress call.

Then hope the rescuers aren't pirates!  Neat hook.  Ship misjumps.
They send a messege, then take a nap for a few years.  Computer
wakes them up (it was told to do so) when they detect a ship on the
passive sensors.  Great, they found us!  How long til they get here
(HEPlaR and or weeny t-plates way out here)?  A few hours.  Great.  How
come they haven't sent a signal to us yet?  Drop hints that this
isn't the normal naval rescue service... maybe it's just a trader,
maybe a pirate.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 09:35:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin Charles Collin,
> 
> > 3. Your radio signal can be picked up across light-year distances.
> 
>         Taking a Jayhawk, the radio only has 30,000 km, the
>         maser only 1000 AU, but perhaps you can programm your
>         fire controll to send SOS 4 times a days using your
>         106 MJ Laser to any near system.
> 
>         It would be good if you have priest on board ;-)
> 
>>       Hey, here's a weird notion:  maybe part of the scout/navy's job
>> would be to look for distressed ships in empty space.  They'd jump 
>> around in say a 1 lightyear grid with very sensitive radio/EMS sensors 
>> looking for signals from misjumpers.
> 
>         10% of ship & cargo, is typical from Loyds. Normaly this
>         is dividet 3% captain, 3% officiers, 3% crew, 1% owner
>         of the rescue ship.

Generally speaking is not a Misjump a catastrophic event.  Something 
major has to happen to cause a starship to end up in the middle of the 
big black, it's not an everyday event.  And as such it seems possible 
that there would be major damage to the ships electrical systems in the 
process.  Combined with the fact that during the early days of the 
Imperium as well as the later days of the Imperium that you never really 
knew who was going to pick up that distress signal.  Sure the good guys 
may rescue you but what if they don't...

Accellerating your ship might be possible with HEPlaR but with 
Grav-Thrusters you're on a constant course to no where plus if you've got 
low berths and you're message states, have laid in a course for ? expect 
to be there in 10 years what's the point of sending out a rescue mission, 
it's costly and they're going to show up in the end.  With a tight beam 
transmission such as a maser or laser you're hopping the planet is where 
you think it is when your transmission gets there other wise no one is 
the wiser,  plus with a tight beam transmission it's impossible to get a 
co-ortinate fix of the orgin point, you simple know it's along that line.

I'd imagine a starship disappearing into the black would be like a small 
aircraft going down in the interior of BC with no flight plan.  Even when 
they've got a flight plan they sometimes never find those planes.  Often 
it's a hunter who stumbles across the wreckage 5 years later.  Before 
everyone says you've got a crappy search and rescue program out there 
take a look at BC, Two very large mountian ranges and a lot of temperate 
rain forest, the trees just sort of pop back into place once the plane 
has passed through them.  If the ELT isn't working properly or the plane 
is upside down you'll never find it.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:16:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about  subsector...)

A
>If you like, I can dig up the appropriate formulae to show.
>
>
>-- 
>Erwin Fritz
>Systems Administrator
>Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
>http://www.glja.com

Hello Erwin,
  It would be interesting, since such a formula could apply to any sci-fi
roleplaying game...

    Hal


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:38:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apology

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?

  I did. You must have a bin-cancel bot somewhere between you and the
remailer.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:18:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Java Programming

At 02:43 PM 9/7/96 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:

>Would someone on the TML be willing to be an email resource for them?  
>
>

I'm a newbie at it myself.  The comp.lang.java newsgroups are a good
resource though...
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:18:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: HTML Advice

At 02:17 PM 9/7/96 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
<stuff deleted>

><A
>HREF="ftp://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin">
MegaCharacter
>II</A>
>
>(MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin is the name of the file.)  When I try to access it
>using Netscape, I get a message that www.interlog.com is refusing access.  
>
>Any suggestions?
>

Yep.  Some servers don't know how to serve up an FTP link.  Also those that
do have different paths to their FTP site than their HTTP documents.
Depends on how the SysAdm set up the WWW server and the anonymous FTP
service on the server.   

My workaround would be to use the HTTP:/path/to/my/file.ext structure and
let the browser worry about what to do with the file.  Most browsers (if not
all) will prompt the user and ask what to do with the file that is not an
actual page.  The catch here is if you try and make .txt files available,
the browsers will attempt to display them.
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:18:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: HTML Advice

At 02:17 PM 9/7/96 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
<stuff deleted>

><A
>HREF="ftp://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin">
MegaCharacter
>II</A>
>
>(MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin is the name of the file.)  When I try to access it
>using Netscape, I get a message that www.interlog.com is refusing access.  
>
>Any suggestions?
>

Yep.  Some servers don't know how to serve up an FTP link.  Also those that
do have different paths to their FTP site than their HTTP documents.
Depends on how the SysAdm set up the WWW server and the anonymous FTP
service on the server.   

My workaround would be to use the HTTP:/path/to/my/file.ext structure and
let the browser worry about what to do with the file.  Most browsers (if not
all) will prompt the user and ask what to do with the file that is not an
actual page.  The catch here is if you try and make .txt files available,
the browsers will attempt to display them.
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:18:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Java Programming

At 02:43 PM 9/7/96 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:

>Would someone on the TML be willing to be an email resource for them?  
>
>

I'm a newbie at it myself.  The comp.lang.java newsgroups are a good
resource though...
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:34:35 -0400
Subject: Potential problems with running T4

  Benn thinking about my T4 game last night. One of the problems that might
come up in running a campaign in the Core Subsector is if the players don't
go where they're supposed to (and they didn't), you might have to generate
worlds and adventures on the spot (I did). It makes it hard to keep the
campaign moving in
a cetain direction.
        My solution to this is to try to write some adventures that could be
used in a variety of settings on any number of worlds. I'd like to see some
of these ideas start turning up on the TML. One good example is the RUBICON
CROSS adventure in the T4 book (Don't worry-no spoilers). This can be run in
virtually any system.
        How 'bout it? let's see what we can come up with.

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:26:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Officers

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >WWI was aturning point.. Europe had been mostly at peace for many years,
> >and the hide-bound General Staffs considered the growing conflict as one
> >more chance for a little glory.  They had no idea of what was coming.  It
> >is almost impossible to blame them.

The General Staffs foresaw a SHORT war, the argument being that economic disruption 
would bring any general war to a halt rapidly. That was the politician's view; the 
military view (Joffre, Foch and Moltke) differed. See Truchman's _The Guns of August_ 
for a more-detailed discussion.
> 
> This is an interesting apologia.  Where does it come from?

I'd like to hear it, too.

> 
> >The main German advantage was Guerdian's(sp?) brain.
> 
> Guderian, as in the famous SPI game Panzergruppe Guderian.  His memoirs
> are very good.

_Panzer Leader_ -- memoir and game both -- are excellent. You also forget Erwin Rommel's 
_Infantry Attacks!_. Keep in mind that armies that lose wars _change things_ if they 
still exist, and the 100,000 man Army of the interwar years took a long, hard look at 
_why_ they lost and _changed things_. For another citation of this, look at how the US 
Army changed after Vietnam.

>  
> Your troops didn't break and run?  I would think that the morale checks
> your men had to make every time they saw one of their stands burn up from
> a plasma gun hit would take their toll.  You'd have to roll a morale check
> on most units every turn; they're more likely to break than to hit and
> penetrate.

Can you say "NKVD"? In WW2 the Red Army gave troops the choice of certain death at the 
hands of their officers or second-echelon motivation brigades if they flee OR a 
possibility of surviving if they hold. I'd bet on the historical result. 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:12:27 -0700
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic 

Rob Prior wrote:

> 
> I'd rather see the Aslan look like _Traveller_ Aslan.  If this Wing Commander
> (whatever it is) copied the style, why should IG change just to suit them?
> Remembering that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I'd vote for
> the traditional Traveller Aslan.

I prefer the 'traditional' portrayal of the Aslan, but I can relate to the legal 
argument for changing it. Perhaps the game-world explanation for the change might be 
some kind of pan-Aslan social movement or some such.

> 
> Knowing that at least one of the Traveller team listens to Stan Rogers music,
> remember his comments on "Barrett's Privateers").

I don't remember the comments on "Barret's Privateers," but I know the song:

Oh, the year was 1778
(how I wish I were in <brain misfire/fart> now!)
A Letter of Marque came from the King
To the Scummiest Vessel I've ever seen

	God damn them all! I was told
	We'd get rich on American Gold
	We'd fire no guns, shed no tears . . . .
	Now I'm a legless man on a Halifax pier
	The last of Barret's Privateers!

My mind is not in music mode now . . . ;)

> 
> For those of you who don't know Stan Rogers, he was a Canadian folk
> singer/songwriter.  He wrote a song called "Barrett's Privateers", which was
> so popular and widely sung that it was often attributed as "trad." in the
> credits.  He was both flattered that he had written such a popular song and
> annoyed that a lot of people who liked it didn't know he wrote it.

Still a good song. I didn't know he was Canadian. 


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:24:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

R.D. Elliott wrote:
> 

> 
>         For the record, Gibson did actually get a few historical facts
> straight.  There were indeed Scots named William Wallace and Robert the
> Bruce, Edward I was indeed an expansionistic English king of that period,
> the battles in the movie were named after actual historical ones, and
> Wallace was in truth executed in an unpleasant manner.
> 
>         Aside from that, Braveheart is all Hollywood.  I can't believe he
> won Best Picture for it.  Frankly, I think that Babe deserved it instead.

Didn't see Babe . . . but Hollywood butchers _everything_. Look at what they did to Tom 
Clancy's books in the movies (List shudders in horror as TC jumps threads and populace 
of List prepares to cast grenades/cruise missiles at the idiot at stormhvn@inreach.com). 

> 
>         Second or third thing I did after seeing Braveheart was go through
> a biography of the Bruce and A Short History of Scotland.  I was really
> steamed by the time I realized just how bad a job Gibson had done...

At least you bothered to take a look at the history books. Very good on you ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:32:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UUENCODED Character Sheets?

The character sheets are now available in the "Traveller" section of my web
site, which resides at http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/. If the original author
of the sheets would let me know who they are so I can fully attribute it on
the site (just now it says "Allan (mumble)"), I'd appreciate it.

I eventually plan to have more Traveller stuff on-line; this just gave me
the impetus to actually upload the new versions of my home pages, which is
a good thing.

- --
There is something wrong with your nose: it is not a llama's nose. If
it were a llama's nose, the treats would smell pretty, er, groovy.
(Sorry; that's how llamas like, er, relate to the world. They are very
sixties animals, basically. Right on, man.)           -- "Bureaucracy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #394
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 8 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 395

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Java Programming
         2. Broken Space Privateers.
         3. Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  
         4. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
         5. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
         6. Re: UUENCODED Character Sheets?
         7. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
         8. Traveller Aliens(Droyne and Aslan)
         9. Re: Broken Space Privateers.
        10. Re: Thoughts on Trade
        11. Traveller, Stan Rogers, (was Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic)
        12. Re: Loren's Request (Lentuli ss.)
        13. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
        14. Re: Imperial Government
        15. Re: Deep space comets and stuff
        16. Re: Apology
        17. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)
        18. Re: Potential problems with running T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:28:45 +1000
Subject: Re: Java Programming

On 7 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> I have a couple of Grade 12/OAC programming students interested in writing
> Traveller software using Java.  Seeing as I just started learning Java myself
> (and haven't found a free Java for the Mac yet), I can't give them any
> support.
> 
> Would someone on the TML be willing to be an email resource for them?  
> 

Yes Yes Yes!

BTW, isnt the new Cyberdog web viewer Java capabke?


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:33:48 -0300
Subject: Broken Space Privateers.

At 05:36 PM 9/7/96 -0400, Rich Ostorero wrote:

>
>I don't remember the comments on "Barret's Privateers," but I know the song:
>

My favourite, about the only song I know all the way though.

>Oh, the year was 1778
>(how I wish I were in <brain misfire/fart> now!)
                        ^ Sherbrooke
Its a little village a ways up the Eastern Shore

>A Letter of Marque came from the King
>To the Scummiest Vessel I've ever seen
>
>	God damn them all! I was told
>	We'd get rich on American Gold
             -----------
             ^cruise the seas for
   
>	We'd fire no guns, shed no tears . . . .
>	Now I'm a legless man on a Halifax pier
                  ^broken

I'm pretty sure its "broken" anyway, you find out how in the last verse.
The site of the hypothetical pier is visible from my office window.

>	The last of Barret's Privateers!
>

The song has a good beat, can actually be sung by untrained mail chorus with
beer accompanyment and cries for use as an adventure tie in

"We cruise the rift
    for Syle-e-an gold"
"Fire no beams, shed no tears"
"Now I'm a broken Varge on an imperium pier..."

    


>My mind is not in music mode now . . . ;)

>Still a good song. I didn't know he was Canadian. 

Sad thought "he was so good no one knew he was Canadian" :-(  He was from
Ontario, but his father's people (I think) were from Nova Scotia.  I
dicovered his music in the 80's, after he died in an airliner fire in the
US.  Annoys me the he was giving concerts in the 70's not a kilometer from
where I was at University, and I didn't have the sense to go see him.

I think his song was meant to be reflective of an anti war sentiment rather
than historical, since our privateers were almost uniformly successful :-)

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:10:35 -0600
Subject: Re: A regrettable omission - military ranks  

At 09:37 am 9/6/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Pay
>Grade   Air Force                         Navy & Coast Guard
>W1      Warrant Officer                   Warrant Officer     
>W234    Chief Warrant Officers            Chief Warrant Officers

        Note that the Air Force no longer uses warrant officer grades, and
the last persons to hold those ranks have since retired.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:10:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

At 11:32 am 9/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Konicih-wa, fellow Traveller buffs.
>   I'm wondering if you might be able to help me out. I'm trying to put
>together as many sets of advanced chraracter generation rules as I can.
>The one I have to date are:

        Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
forgotten)
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> At 11:32 am 9/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >   I'm wondering if you might be able to help me out. I'm trying to put
> >together as many sets of advanced chraracter generation rules as I can.
> >The one I have to date are:
> 
>         Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
> forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
> forgotten)

 Scouts & Assassins
 Merchants & Merchandise

 SOTAG I was disappointed in, but the other two are pretty good.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 19:40:48 -0700
Subject: Re: UUENCODED Character Sheets?

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net> said:

>The character sheets are now available in the "Traveller" section of my web
>site, which resides at http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/.
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have not been able to locate this page.  The only responce from
www.one.net was a not located here screen.  What gives?


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:49:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 11:32 am 9/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Konicih-wa, fellow Traveller buffs.
> >   I'm wondering if you might be able to help me out. I'm trying to put
> >together as many sets of advanced chraracter generation rules as I can.
> >The one I have to date are:
> 
>         Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
> forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
> forgotten)

The two forgotten titles were:  "Scouts and Assassins," and "Merchants 
and Merchandise."


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:02:09 -0500
Subject: Traveller Aliens(Droyne and Aslan)

>	The previously published Traveller material on the Droyne states 
>that it wasn't until the Imperium was going for a while that the records 
>got put together well enough to reconize that the Droyne (who did not 
>maintain intersteller travel) were actually ONE species.  If I recall 
>correctly, this was in about 500 IMP (?).  So, for T4 purposes, the 
>Droyne are a low tech minor race (at least for Milleau 0).

I was thinking about this Droyne thing and I don't knowif the fact that they
were not considered a major race has much to do with it.  I mean, IG
included the 6 parsec Jump Drive in the book and it is definitely not
present in the year 0.  If the Droyne were left out because of the year 0
thing, then J-6 should have been left out too (not to mention J-5 and J-4).


>> I'd rather see the Aslan look like _Traveller_ Aslan.  If this Wing Commander
>> (whatever it is) copied the style, why should IG change just to suit them?
>> Remembering that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I'd vote for
>> the traditional Traveller Aslan.
>
>I prefer the 'traditional' portrayal of the Aslan, but I can relate to the
legal 
>argument for changing it. Perhaps the game-world explanation for the change
might be 
>some kind of pan-Aslan social movement or some such.

Well, the good news is that the picture is no longer on IG's page.  Maybe we
had an impact on them again.  It's nice to be able to think that they might
actually be listening to what we are saying. :)  Of course, I'd like to get
some info from them on this Droyne issue.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 23:05:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Broken Space Privateers.

What a way to delurk...

"Barret's Privateers" is a great song...so much so that some folks ended up
making a filk of it for the Minnesota Renaissance Festival: "Walker's
Volunteers"

It was back in the summer of '78
	How I wish I was in New Hope now!
When a balding man with an MFA
Sat down at a piano and began to play
	Goddamn them all/I was told
	Out contracts would be lined with gold
	We'd sing old songs/Drink good beer
	Now I'm a drunken man in a Renaissance Faire
	The last of Walker's volunteers...

Victor J. Raymond           Activist, Writer, Raconteur
3645 Bloomington Av. So.    raymond@macalstr.edu
Minneapolis, MN 55407       612.721.9635
 
"In the side of what had seemed to be a snow-bank stood a solid-looking little
door, painted a dark green.  An iron bell-pull hung by the side, and below it,
on a small brass plate, neatly engrave in square capital letters, they could
read by the aid of moonlight: --    Mr. Badger"   --   Wind in the Willows


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

 I said:
 ::>Buying and selling
 ::>Andromedan rubies is probably different than buying and selling
 ::>Andromedan pig iron, though, so it makes sense to separate luxury goods
 ::>as a separate category for game purposes.

Jeff said:
 >The rationale for that was a combination of two factors -
 >perceived value (pig iron doesn't have the perceived value of
 >gem-quality diamonds, even if the latter are as common as
 >sand), and expected lot size.

	I think the game-relevant difference between "luxury" and other
goods is the ease of buying and selling them.  Pig iron likely is traded
on exchanges where buying and selling at the up-to-the-moment market price
is as easy as calling a broker.  Gem stones, perfumes, art, delicacies,
and other rare off-world goods will not have this sort of set-up which
means that dealing in these goods will be much more difficult (gives the 
Purser/Bursar something to do). 

 >If you're doing goods trade in
 >ground cars, and all of a sudden you realize that you're
 >shipping plus ten million Td per year to the same planet,
 >you've probably moved into the commodity zone.

	And commodities traded in this volume are extremely unlikely to 
be shipped through free traders.  For example, if you're a car 
manufacturer on a world with a few billion pop and you're shipping ten 
million Td of cars per year to the neighboring world of a few 100s of 
millions pop, you're not going to wait for unpredictable free traders to 
show up to ship your cars a few at a time.  You'll have a regular 
contract with a shipping company that has regularly scheduled service 
between the two worlds.  That's not to say that in unusual circumstances 
a Free Trader might not be used, like labor unrest, or just a big surge 
in demand.
	I've got a shipping system worked out that would serve this sort 
of situation well.  I'll try to write it up and post it in the next couple 
of days.

::> If shipping is a competitive business then it won't really matter
::> to the shipper since he'll just be paid per cargo container.
>I was thinking more in terms of what has historically (in Traveller) been
>called "speculative" trade - where the guy doing the shipping buys the 
>goods at one end, and sells them at the other end.  
<snip>
	You're right, shipping freight is pretty boring game-wise and, in
any case, spec trade will be the rule in the Deeps. 

 ::> Since trade will be growing rapidly there probably won't be enough
 ::>ships to go around at first.  This means people who own ships, shipyards,
 ::>and starports, will be capturing lots of the gains from trade, ie.
 ::>charging a lot.

 >OK, now how do we model (SIMPLY) the market forces that will
 >keep this profiteering in check?  If it's not kept in check,
 >then the predatory pricing will reduce demand on the target
 >world to the point where the trade itself will be mostly choked
 >off.  Competition will certainly be a factor in this, but how
 >much of one?  

	Actually, its not really desirable to keep this "profiteering" in 
check since it is the large profits being made on shipping that will draw 
more investment into building and operating ships.  Since there are big 
gains for everyone to be made in interstellar trade, it is socially 
desirable that there be more investment in shipping.  Hence, eliminating 
the large profits in this area would be a bad thing.  If you've ever 
lived in a rent-controlled city, you know what I mean.
	The part about the amount of trade being reduced isn't really 
true since all ships should be running with their holds full. The real 
limit on trade is the number of ships available.  This will only get 
better when people invest in building more ships.

 >And at what point to the large corps come in, and
 >what about the nascent megacorps after them?

	The corps will come in after the free traders have sniffed around 
with their spec trading and discovered which goods and which routes are 
money-makers.
	In terms of modelling this in game terms, the simplest way would 
be to have price modifiers which would bring prices on 
different planets closer together depending on location.  There could be 
three levels: Core, Frontier, Deeps.  Price differences in the Deeps 
would be at their fullest extent while price differences in the Core 
would be greatly reduced in Year 0 to non-existent in later centuries.
	For a merchant prince campaign, a more complex system could be 
used where the ref figured out likely trade routes and assigned shipping 
to them.  Using a price deflator for competition (yet to be created), he 
could then figure out the market price along those routes.

 >the GM should realize that the route is being exploited already, and ref 
 >the spec trade process accordingly - which means that there may be _no_ 
 >cargos of the specified type available at a price that the PCs can live 
 >with.

	I always thought the "cargo availability" stuff was a bit awkward. 
If I land on an industrial world of a 100 million people, shouldn't I be
able to find just about any industrial good I want?  If there are people
out there who want to buy things but can't because of shortages, you've
got a pretty inefficient economy.  On really small or low-tech worlds the
system makes a bit more sense, but not many worlds are _that_ small.  
	I think my price mod system handles the situation pretty 
accurately and simply.  For more detailed "merchant prince" campaigns, 
additional roles and role-playing can be involved in finding precisely 
the type of good at precisely the price the players want.  
	A good merchant campaign should allow players to notice that
there's a big overcapacity in holographic memories on Planet A, while
Planet B 3 parsecs over is experiencing an economic boom and prices there
are much higher. This is the sort of thing that being a Free Trader and 
opening new trade routes is all about.  It shouldn't just be a matter of 
comparing UWPs, IMHO.  An ex-Scout who used to do economic surveys would 
make an excellent Free Trader.


------------------------------

From: Mark McKenna <mmckenna@iinet.net.au>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:31:39 +0800
Subject: Traveller, Stan Rogers, (was Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic)

:> Knowing that at least one of the Traveller team listens to Stan Rogers music,
:> remember his comments on "Barrett's Privateers").

I assume that 'at least one of the Traveller team listens to Stan Rodgers'
is because of the reference to the Mary Ellen Carter in TNE material (Star
Vikings pages 47 and 51).  Am I correct?  Does the reference to the Mery
Ellen Carter have any special meaning (besides that obvious from the words
of the song and the motto on the ships patch - 'That her name not be lost to
the knowledge of men').
Mark McKenna


------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:42:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Loren's Request (Lentuli ss.)

Loren asked:

>Another question: My files are inaccessible to me right now, can some
>kind soul supply me with any HIWG/Imperial Atlas/Other Canon data on
>Lentuli subsector, and the sector in which Lentuli is located? I may
>not need all of the numbers, but I do need to know if such exists.

Lentuli subsector appears to be Empty Quarter (I), based on the information in
the DGP sector files and the article on the Newts from Marhaban/Lentuli, 
which looks like it's Empty Quarter 0426:

Marhaban      0426 A4697AB-E                       801 Im K8 IV

There is a second Marhaban in the Lishun sector, but as I recall it didn't
have a satisfactory UWP and failed to match the article description for the
location ("trailing and coreward of capital", BJTAS #3, 15.)  The discussion
in the HIWG list was that Marhaban was perhaps a Vilani name for the world.

As I recall, EQ was one of the sectors that appeared to need some UWP review
due to bad generation, but the star locations should all be as in _Atlas_.

Loren, I'll send you a stack of related files directly.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:17:24 +1000
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 11:32 am 9/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Konicih-wa, fellow Traveller buffs.
> >   I'm wondering if you might be able to help me out. I'm trying to put
> >together as many sets of advanced chraracter generation rules as I can.
> >The one I have to date are:
> 
>         Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
> forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
> forgotten)

I have both SORAG (it was crap IMHO) and the other Paranioa Press book 
for Traders and Spies (from memmory, I have to get the book from the 
Event horizon called my cubbord).

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 05:54:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

In a message dated 96-09-06 02:58:20 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the

 average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace
for 
 the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial representative 
 for the world?
  >>

The Imperial government would probably ignore lower population, lower tech
worlds. The more important the world (commercially, politically, etc) the
greater chance there would be an Imperial government presence (by that I mean
of the bureaucracy).

On the othe rhand, any nobles are themselves reps of the Imperium, although
their chain of command reaches up through their immediate superior nobles.

Marc Miller


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:14:56 PST
Subject: Re: Deep space comets and stuff

In mail you write:

>> And as I said figure 10 km as "average" size for an icy body out there.
>
>    I would have thought 250 meters to 2.5 kilometers 'core'.
>    Still, as you point out, that is a lot of hydrogen.
>    Sorry, well... not really, but ya' caught me ;-]

Remember Shoemaker-Levy? 250 meters would have been a piece almost not
worth tracking...

>> Then consider that larger bodies are easier to detect.

>    But they are so very very far apart, and thus rare to find.
>    And they are hard to spot also.   No Infra-Red sig to speak of.
>    The hydrogen slush and other wierd chemicals that form by 
> gasious deposit covering the solid core would act as 'radar' or
> 'EMS' absorbent stealth covering.
>   Gigantic targets with EMM covering, coasting, equates to
> a minus 3 diff mod (FF+S rules), a good chance to get a target
> detection at 13 light-seconds, (128 hexes FF+S rules)
> using a strenght 16 sensor.   The rules do not cover when
> something is first picked up on sensors as a blip, so how
> about 4 times the rated range.  This would give comet detecting
> range at a little under a light-minite.  Vice the couple of 
> light-hours you were probially thinking of.

Thing is, such "stealthing" as they have is purely accidental. They
aren't all that absorbent on all wavelengths. You just pick a "good"
one (millimeter band, maybe?) and fire off some *strong* pulses. For
setups like this, where you don't need to manuever, you can deploy some
pretty *huge* antennas.

For that matter, if you jump in a light year or so out, you can use a
nuclear pumped radar like the one proposed as part of the "Spacewatch"
proposal. That'll detect anything more than a meter across within
several light hours. Sure, it'll let the enemy know, but by then the
attack will be over. :-)

Heck, there are even *legitimate* reasons for someone to be doing that.
Some Belter types would likely do that sort of thing (closer in)
looking for bodies that are worth deflecting into the inner system as
cheap sources of volatiles and organics. Or even just worth exploiting
"in place". 

>   So.. It gets down to how dense do you think there are cometary
> bodies in deep space (vice the Comet Cloud).   One per cubic light-
> hour, or one per cubic light day.   I lean towards the light-day
> end of the scales.

In which case we wouldn't see very many comets. Density is almost
certain to be more like one per cubic AU!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:42:02 PST
Subject: Re: Apology

In mail you write:

> Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?

I did. Unfortunately, I saw the bit about the first one being the same
side twice, and nuked the file before I realized that the replacement
file was *only* the missing side. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:34:46 PST
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs (was: Question about subsector...)

In mail you write:

> it's costly and they're going to show up in the end.  With a tight beam 
> transmission such as a maser or laser you're hopping the planet is where 
> you think it is when your transmission gets there other wise no one is 
> the wiser,  plus with a tight beam transmission it's impossible to get a 
> co-ortinate fix of the orgin point, you simple know it's along that line.

"Tight beam" is relative. From a parsec away, the beam will cover the
entire system. Remember, the *definition* of parsec is that 1 AU
subtends only one second of arc at a parsec. And since a 1 arc-second
beam divergence isn't possible due to diffraction limits, the beam will
easily cover everything.

And directional fixes are somewhat possible on such a beam. They are
just somewhat limited by the small angle differences between different
observers. 

> I'd imagine a starship disappearing into the black would be like a small 
> aircraft going down in the interior of BC with no flight plan.  Even when 
> they've got a flight plan they sometimes never find those planes.  Often 
> it's a hunter who stumbles across the wreckage 5 years later.  Before 
> everyone says you've got a crappy search and rescue program out there 
> take a look at BC, Two very large mountian ranges and a lot of temperate 
> rain forest, the trees just sort of pop back into place once the plane 
> has passed through them.  If the ELT isn't working properly or the plane 
> is upside down you'll never find it.

Hey, here in Oregon it hasn't been that long since a plane was
*accidentally* discovered (by a fire crew?) right in the middle of the
area where everyone had been searching for it. It'd gone down in a
steep dive and wound up *between* some trees.

And a few years back, they found a plane (somewhere in the northwest)
that had disappeared 40 years ago!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: John & Lisa Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 07:56:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Potential problems with running T4

> 
>   Benn thinking about my T4 game last night. One of the problems that might
> come up in running a campaign in the Core Subsector is if the players don't
> go where they're supposed to (and they didn't), you might have to generate
> worlds and adventures on the spot (I did). It makes it hard to keep the
> campaign moving in
> a cetain direction.
>         My solution to this is to try to write some adventures that could be
> used in a variety of settings on any number of worlds. I'd like to see some
> of these ideas start turning up on the TML. One good example is the RUBICON
> CROSS adventure in the T4 book (Don't worry-no spoilers). This can be run in
> virtually any system.
>         How 'bout it? let's see what we can come up with.

The age old problem of referee's, DM's, et al for as long as the hobby has been around.  
The answers - 1) be well prepared in advance, and 2) be able to think fast on your feet 
(or in your chair).  

If you are running a campaign, I suggest not using prepared adventures unless your 
players don't mind having that pre-determination feeling.  By that I mean the players 
could very well get the feeling they are stuck in a storyline with little choice in what 
happens - unless you, the Ref, are willing to follow numbers 1 & 2 above.  In which case 
you can put enough of your own campaign ideas into said adventure to make the players 
feel their characters have some say in their future.

Currently, I am running a "Glory Years" Traveller campaign, set in the early 1100's.  
I've been bringing together all the early adventures I have and customizing them to fit 
the style of this particular group of players.  Are you familiar with CT?  If so, pull 
out that old copy of 76 patrons!  It's full of great adventure leads.  Each parton 
encounter is written in a style that leaves plenty of room for Refs to breathe life life 
into them.  Maybe if we ask real nice IG will publish a new version....

Happy Gaming,
Ensign John

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #395
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 8 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 396

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs
         2. Accelerating to near light speed
         3. Re: Apology
         4. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
         5. "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 
         6. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
         7. Traveller IRC Phonebook
         8. New Versions of Old Supplements
         9. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs
        10. Sherbrooke
        11. Re: Imperial Government
        12. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
        13. Some facts on the Ine Givar
        14. Some Traveller SF Resources
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #394
        16. Comments on Trade

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 04:15:22 PST
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs

In mail you write:

> To the comment that a laser weapon couldn't be used as a distress
> signal---nonsense!  One, you could always modulate the power if
> nothing else.

Do you have *any* idea what it takes to "modulate" that sort of power
level?

> Two, as to it being dangerous (didn't the post say something about it
> being seen as a weapon?), nah.

No, I said they were *designed* as a weapon. The requirements aare
*very* different.

> The laser weapn would be better, though.  Actually, this might be a
> good arguement for tunable lasers (assuming we don't redo the
> atmospheric attenuation rules which favor x-ray lasers).  A tunable
> laser weapon could be used in a FM mode for commo in emergencies.

Again, do you have *any* idea of the difference between being "tunable"
and being able to frequency modulate?

> First you'd spend some time figuring out where you are.  Then you'd
> beam a laser signal (weapon, preferably) to the nearest *world* with
> commo (your computer will have to adjust for the flight time of the
> messege, and maybe raster the signal around a little). 

The beam can't be focused anywhere *near* well enough to hit *just* a
world at those distances. Probably not well enough to hit *just* the
inner system!

There are three kinds of modulation: Pulse, amplitude, and frequency.

Pulse modulation (PM) switches the signal on and off. It may be simple
and crude like Morse code, or it may be more complex. It generally
breaks down into PWM and PCM. PWM uses the *width* of the pulse as the
signalling element. PCM (pulse code modulation) uses fixed width pulses
and fixed inter-pulse intervals. The info is the presence or absence of
pulses.

Amplitude modulation (AM) uses a modulator to vary the power level
(amplitude) of a signal according to the input signal.

Frequency modulation (FM) uses a different sort of modulator to vary
the *frequency* of the signal.

Now let's look at laser weapons. They fall into two classes. Pulse
lasers, which produce a fixed (very short) length pulse, and continuous
lasers which produce a beam for as long as you feed power (more or less).

Pulse lasers have a maximum pulse rate that is usually *quite* large in
comparison to the pulse length. This is due to engineering concerns.
Mostly heat problems. In any case, PWM is out, as trying to change the
pulse width would require redesigning the system from scratch. PCM
won't work well as the typical pulse widths are milliseconds or less,
and the inter-pulse interval is *seconds* or more. Just *detecting* the
pulses would be very hard. timing them would be a *real* problem. And
both AM and FM verquire a continuous carrier. So pulse lasers are out.

With continuous lasers, we have to consider the following factors. Rise
time is how fast the power can go from off to on, without damaging
anything. Fall time is how fast it can go from on to off, again without
damaging anything. Those control any sort of PM we might try.

AM gets messier. The main problem is that you need a modulator. That
is, something capable of varying the level of the power the laser is
outputting according to a much weaker signal being fed into it. This
requires rather large and specialized equipment. Worse, it requires the
device whose output is being modulate to be *designed* to accept
partial output levels, something that is just *not* going to be done
with a weapon (it makes the design a *lot* more complex and subject  to
failure). So not only is a ship unlikely to have a suitable AM
modulator, even if one is kludged together, the odds are that the laser
can't be run at arbitrary power levels.

FM requires no merely a tunable laser, but one that can be tuned while
operating, rather than between shots. The rate at which the frequency
can be changed is the critical factor here. And again, it's unlikely to
be suitable for signalling purposes.

I'd say that the only remotely workable possibiliity is using a
continous beam laser in some sort of pulse modulation. As long as the
laser allows "short" pulses (say between .1 sec and 10 sec) *and* it
allows such pulse for extended periods, we have a chance.

Unfortunately, that range may not be one that weapons designers see
much point in supporting. If you are using .1 sec pulses, why not use a
pulse laser? It'd be easier on the unit, and allow higher power levels.
At 10 seconds, we are getting into a range were one may be trying to
"scan" a laser across potential posistions of targets. At least there's
a good chance that the fire control system can be programmed for pulse
patterns. 

But it makes for *slow* messages. Morse code rules:

dashes are 3 dots long
space between elements of a letter is one dot long
Space between letters is one dash long

Plus the wait between "words", which I can't recall right now. Lets
call that 3 dashes (9 dots)

That makes SOS 36 dots long, counting the space between repeats:
|. . .   ... ... ...   . . .         |

At 10 seconds per pulse, that's 6 minutes. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 06:59:38 -0600
Subject: Accelerating to near light speed

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello Erwin,
>   It would be interesting, since such a formula could apply to any sci-fi
> roleplaying game...
> 
>     Hal

I quote from "University Astronomy", by Pasachoff and Kutner (Saunders, 1978)
page 695:

The energy of a moving particle is given by:

	E = (m0)c**2[1 - (v/c)**2]**(-0.5)
             
(** = to the power of)

where m0 is the mass of the particle when it is at rest,or its rest mass. Thus
when a particle is at rest, its energy is (m0)c**2.  As it goes faster its
energy increases rapidly when v gets close to c.  We can interpret this equation 
by saying that E = mc**2 is always true, but that the mass of a particle
increases as it moves faster:

	m = (m0)[1 - (v/c)**2]**(-0.5)

This is one reason whey it takes so much energy to accelerate a particle in a
high energy accelerator.  When it is moving close tot he speed of light, its
mass is so great that you have to add a lot of energy to get a small increase
in velocity.  This is experimentally verified to a high degree of accuracy.

End of quote.

See that the above formulae indicate that it is impossible to travel _at_
the speed of light (because the denominator is zero).  

However, travelling faster than the speed of light results in the denominator 
being an imaginary number.  If your mass is also an imaginary number, there's
no problem!  That's what tachyons are.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 06:57:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Apology

> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:       Re: Apology
> From:          shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date:          Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:42:02 PST
> Organization:  Shadownet
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?
> 
> I did. Unfortunately, I saw the bit about the first one being the same
> side twice, and nuked the file before I realized that the replacement
> file was *only* the missing side. :-(
> 

Leonard,

Following is a quote from a recent email:

>From:             "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
>To:               <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Subject:          Re: UUENCODED Character Sheets?
>Date sent:        Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:32:49 -0400
>Send reply to:    traveller@MPGN.COM

>The character sheets are now available in the "Traveller" section of
>my web site, which resides at http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/. If the
>original author of the sheets would let me know who they are so I can
>fully attribute it on the site (just now it says "Allan (mumble)"),
>I'd appreciate it.

If you can't get on to the home page (someone wrote in about 
problems) email me.... I can send via email for you.

Suz
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:09:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

Rich Ostorero wrote:

>From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
>Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:24:43 -0700
>Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)
>
>R.D. Elliott wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>         For the record, Gibson did actually get a few historical facts
>> straight.  There were indeed Scots named William Wallace and Robert the
>> Bruce, Edward I was indeed an expansionistic English king of that period,
>> the battles in the movie were named after actual historical ones, and
>> Wallace was in truth executed in an unpleasant manner.
>>
>>         Aside from that, Braveheart is all Hollywood.  I can't believe he
>> won Best Picture for it.  Frankly, I think that Babe deserved it instead.
>
>Didn't see Babe . . .


        Well worth seeing.  My girlfriend forced to to sit down and watch
it at gunpoint.  I was fully expecting to look like Alex in A Clockwork
Orange after a few moments, but I actually wound up really enjoying it.  It
has great production values...


>but Hollywood butchers _everything_. Look at what they did to Tom
>Clancy's books in the movies (List shudders in horror as TC jumps threads
>and populace
>of List prepares to cast grenades/cruise missiles at the idiot at
>stormhvn@inreach.com).
>


        Agreed.  I thought the underwater scenes in Hunt for Red October
were pretty hokey, and that was just for starters...


>>
>>         Second or third thing I did after seeing Braveheart was go through
>> a biography of the Bruce and A Short History of Scotland.  I was really
>> steamed by the time I realized just how bad a job Gibson had done...
>
>At least you bothered to take a look at the history books. Very good on you ;)
>


        I can't help myself..:).  Seriously though, Braveheart is on the
level of rewriting U.S. History with George Washington switching sides
three times, Paul Revere sleeping with the Queen of England, and Valley
Forge taking place in the Florida Keys.  Real annoying.


>- --Rich Ostorero
>stormhvn@inreach.com
>

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 09:06:06 -0800
Subject: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 

On  7 Sep 96 at 22:02, Paul Walker spewed:

> I was thinking about this Droyne thing and I don't knowif the fact
> that they were not considered a major race has much to do with it. 
> I mean, IG included the 6 parsec Jump Drive in the book and it is
> definitely not present in the year 0.  If the Droyne were left out

Well...

Here's my Cr .02 on it.  A ship design system for Traveller is going 
to be incomplete if it stops at TL 12.  This is not relevant to 
arguments over the year 0 setting.  

If you take a close look at the book, what references there are to any 
setting, definitely make reference to Year Zero.  At year 0, the Imperium 
"might" have records of the Droyne, but remember there are no Droyne 
worlds within Sylean space...  Research is not exactly ongoing, and records 
are almost certainly incomplete, especially given the known weaknesses of 
the Vilani in biology and the life sciences.  Canon definitely has them not 
recognizing the Droyne as a major race, or even as 1 species in year 0.

>From CT Alien Module 5, Droyne, p. 7, comes the following...

"...As a result, the existence of more than one planet full of 
Droyne, even if noticed, would have been a minor curiosity only."

"The Droyne thus remained isolated and obscure during the First 
Empire.  When Terra conquered the Vilani and the Rule of Man was 
established, the Terran conquerers were to busy attempting to cope 
with inherited problems of empire to lavish much concern over the 
individual races which inhabited their new realm."

In talking about the 3rd Imperium, it says the following:

"Originally, the discovery of Droyne with jump drive was dismissed as 
contact with just another minor race."  

The Droyne with J-Drives had been contacted in the Spinward Marches, 
which were not part of either the Ziru Sirka (1st Empire) or the Rule of Man.   
Imperial investigators correlated the Droyne on various worlds within 
the Imperium as belonging to the same species, and discovered that 
the Droyne had had jump drives for a very long time...  Thus 
establishing them as a major race...during the 3rd Imperium.

So "canon" states that the 1st and 2nd Imperiums would know of the 
Droyne, but wouldn't know them as 1 species, or as a major race...

As for the "Marc is writing them out of the background" theory, I 
can't conceive of it.  This would alter the Traveller backdrop beyond 
recognition...

Without the Droyne/Ancients connection, there are no Vargr, there are 
no Zhodani, No Vilani...or any other human minor race, for that 
matter (therefore no 1st Imperium, Rule of Man, or 3rd Imperium, as 
we know it).  You could more easily write the Hivers, K'kree, or Aslan 
out of the background than the Droyne.  Their bird-like footprints are 
heavy on the Traveller setting...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 09:13:18 -0800
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

On  7 Sep 96 at 1:00, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> >> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much
> >> like the Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were
> >> there first, they (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we
> >> don't want to look like we're copying.

> The alternative is to look to some folks like anpother TSR, using
> lawyers instead of quality to corner the market.

Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any 
judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW 
didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...

As for looking like TSR, there's a world of difference.  TSR tends to 
steal other people's work, get upset when somebody copies their 
stolen goods, and then defend it...  Tolkein, Arneson, etc...  I have 
no problem with somebody defending their own creation.  Frankly, you 
shouldn't either...

Companies that don't defend their copyrights don't last too long...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:30:30 -0400
Subject: Traveller IRC Phonebook

Check out the Traveller IRC Phonebook at
   http://members.gnn.com/rwetherington/Traveller_People.html

Leave your info and get added!

Russ


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:37:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New Versions of Old Supplements

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, John & Lisa Macek wrote:

> the style of this particular group of players.  Are you familiar with CT?  If so, pull 
> out that old copy of 76 patrons!  It's full of great adventure leads.  Each parton 
> encounter is written in a style that leaves plenty of room for Refs to breathe life life 
> into them.  Maybe if we ask real nice IG will publish a new version....

Since I first purchased 76 Patrons, I've wished for an additional 
supplement like that.  Gamelord's "Wanted: Adventurers" was the closest 
thing to it that was ever published, AFAIK.  

If IG would put out a 96-page Patrons book, that would be greatly, 
greatly appreciated. :)

And, heck, while we're at it, it'd be nice to have 96-page versions of:

1001 Characters (With some Casual Encounters-type writeups thrown in)
Animal Encounters
Traders & Gunboats/Fighting Ships (just a book with a huge number of 
                                   ships not included in T4 or Starships)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:57:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs

 
> Do you have *any* idea what it takes to "modulate" that sort of power
> level?

Do you have *any* idea how to directly control strong and weak
forces?  That's not the rationale, but we're talking TL10+ here.  We
can't even *make* the lasers they have.  
 
> > The laser weapn would be better, though.  Actually, this might be a
> > good arguement for tunable lasers (assuming we don't redo the
> > atmospheric attenuation rules which favor x-ray lasers).  A tunable
> > laser weapon could be used in a FM mode for commo in emergencies.
> 
> Again, do you have *any* idea of the difference between being "tunable"
> and being able to frequency modulate?

What can gravtics do, do tell...  that or make up something good
:-)

Gravtics.  I'll modulate it with gravtics.  Besides, they don't need
to send complicated info!  Just SOS.  And in the Imperium, SOS
using a laser weapon might be defined as a certain very simple
modulation.  I didn't say I'd be broadcasting high-res holographic
images.  Again, agree on a simple SOS, just modulated enough to not
be natural.  Think about the context of this discussion---all I need
is a sky position and an idea of what z is.

> > First you'd spend some time figuring out where you are.  Then you'd
> > beam a laser signal (weapon, preferably) to the nearest *world* with
> > commo (your computer will have to adjust for the flight time of the
> > messege, and maybe raster the signal around a little). 
> 
> The beam can't be focused anywhere *near* well enough to hit *just* a
> world at those distances. Probably not well enough to hit *just* the
> inner system!

Yeah, probably, but you aim as best you can (centered on _world_)
and hope for the best.
 
> There are three kinds of modulation: Pulse, amplitude, and frequency.
> 
> Pulse modulation (PM) switches the signal on and off. It may be simple
> and crude like Morse code, or it may be more complex. It generally
> breaks down into PWM and PCM. PWM uses the *width* of the pulse as the
> signalling element. PCM (pulse code modulation) uses fixed width pulses
> and fixed inter-pulse intervals. The info is the presence or absence of
> pulses.

This would work well for signalling.
 
> Amplitude modulation (AM) uses a modulator to vary the power level
> (amplitude) of a signal according to the input signal.

AM would be doable, too.
 
> Mostly heat problems. In any case, PWM is out, as trying to change the
> pulse width would require redesigning the system from scratch. PCM

Have the gravtic focusing turn off and on, so only part of the pulse
will get that benefit.  There, I've changed the pulse width.  Also,
note that arguements about beam spreading don't take Bruce's gravtic
focussing ideas into play.  Gravtic fucusing is "fact" for this
discussion (it being traveller, not RL).

> pulses would be very hard. timing them would be a *real* problem. And
> both AM and FM verquire a continuous carrier. So pulse lasers are out.
> 
> With continuous lasers, we have to consider the following factors. Rise
> time is how fast the power can go from off to on, without damaging
> anything. Fall time is how fast it can go from on to off, again without
> damaging anything. Those control any sort of PM we might try.

Use the gravtics to do this.  I say it can.  If Marc says it can,
then it works :-)  Gravtics/damper tech are the big physics nullifier
areas in traveller, use them, they're there already!
 
> AM gets messier. The main problem is that you need a modulator. That
> is, something capable of varying the level of the power the laser is
> outputting according to a much weaker signal being fed into it. This
> requires rather large and specialized equipment. Worse, it requires the
> device whose output is being modulate to be *designed* to accept
> partial output levels, something that is just *not* going to be done
> with a weapon (it makes the design a *lot* more complex and subject  to
> failure). So not only is a ship unlikely to have a suitable AM
> modulator, even if one is kludged together, the odds are that the laser
> can't be run at arbitrary power levels.

Again, modulate the gravtic carrier pulse.  If we assume (since it
ain't nailed down) the gravtic pulse following the beam model we
might have a modulated grav pulse that results in more beam spread
in some parts of the pulse.
 
> FM requires no merely a tunable laser, but one that can be tuned while
> operating, rather than between shots. The rate at which the frequency
> can be changed is the critical factor here. And again, it's unlikely to
> be suitable for signalling purposes.

True.  I don't know that they can be tuned in-use at TL10, but I'm
willing to ditch FM :-)
 
> But it makes for *slow* messages. Morse code rules:
> 
> dashes are 3 dots long
> space between elements of a letter is one dot long
> Space between letters is one dash long
> 
> Plus the wait between "words", which I can't recall right now. Lets
> call that 3 dashes (9 dots)
> 
> That makes SOS 36 dots long, counting the space between repeats:
> |. . .   ... ... ...   . . .         |
> 
> At 10 seconds per pulse, that's 6 minutes. 

Sounds good.  Throw some gravtics in there as well for kicks.  That
or have a standard way to have the ship give its distance in simple
code (it can look around and triangulate, otherwise the rescuers
have to get a few points to find out (extra time).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:24:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sherbrooke

Les Howie, PARDON ME?!?

	Sherbrooke is NOT a "little village"!  We're what, 80,000
here? We have two Universities??  Unless yhou're referring to another
Sherbrooke.  This Sherbrooke is in Quebec.

Painting guide and Simple fun ship combat:  OK I uploaded these
two files on my web page.  I haven't had a chance to actually
LOOK at them so the formatting is certainly awful (no paragraphs
and such) but you might want to look at them as draft versions
anyway.  I'll get the formatting done during next week.

Oh, there's also some info on Sherbrooke. <snicker> :)

http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: daniel_t@gate.net (Daniel T.)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:48:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

> Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the
>average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace for
>the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial representative for
>the world?

Considering that many high-tech starports are on worlds that don't have the
tech to support them, I can only assume that starports are
controlled/maintained by the Imperium. There is where you will find the
Imperial government on any world even if it is low tech.



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:51:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> On  7 Sep 96 at 1:00, Leonard Erickson spewed:
> > >> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much
> > >> like the Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were
> > >> there first, they (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we
> > >> don't want to look like we're copying.
> 
> Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any 
> judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW 
> didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...

   Probably because they were both copied from Niven's Kzin.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 08 Sep 96 14:52:29 EDT
Subject: Some facts on the Ine Givar

	Need some help.
	I've been doing some work and I need some ideas on the Ine Givar
terrrorists (freedom fighters, ect...) What Challange had, the few other
references from the little books, and just plain constructing myself, does
anybody have some leads on them? Some structrue of the group, where they mostly
opperate, and general equipment. Has anyone ever found out who leads them? I
know that they are associated with the Zhos, but little else. If anyone has this
type of make-up on them, please forward it. It will be greatly appricated...

	Jeff

	Life is a minefield...


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Sep 1996 20:31:07 GMT
Subject: Some Traveller SF Resources

In order of usefulness:

Gillett, Dr. Stephen L., _Worldbuilding: A writer's guide to constructing
star systems and life-supporting planets_, Writers Digest Books, 1996.

Schmidt, Stanley, _Aliens and Alien Societies: A writer's guide to creating
extraterrestrial life-forms_, Writers Digest Books, 1995.


Writers Digest Books is an imprint of:

F&W Publications Inc.
1507 Dana Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45207
(800) 289-0963



_Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy_, St. Martin's Press, 1991.
*This one is by the editors of Analog

St. Martin's Press
175 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10010



Bretnor, Reginald (ed), _The Craft of Science Fiction_, Harper & Row, 1976

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Sep 1996 20:42:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #394

>I prefer the 'traditional' portrayal of the Aslan, but I can relate to the
legal 
>argument for changing it.

Is there a legal reason for change?  If Wing Commander (and what is Wing
Commander anyway?) was published after Traveller Aslan were published, then I
don't see they could threaten legal action.  Of course, I can see various
reviewers calling the original Traveller Aslan "dervivative" because they
don't know the facts.  (Rather like most of the business papers write about
'new' Microsoft developments that OS/2, Mac, and UNIX have had for years.)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Sep 1996 20:52:46 GMT
Subject: Comments on Trade

Keep in mind that Traveller merchants are _small fry_, which means that the
system in the game refers to the crumbs that the megacorps let slip.  Just as
you can't use the chances of enlisting in a service to calculate demographics
for the Imperium, you can't extrapolate the Traveller trade system to cover
really big lines.

When I first noticed the inevitability of making money (back in the 70s),
either Loren or Marc (forget which one answered my letter) told me that my
responsibility as a referee was to keep the players motivated, so by all
means have them not locate really lucrative cargo, change the values, or
whatever else I liked.  So I started doing things like having the local
dockworkers union collect safety fees, various customs agents started looking
at the fine print of the import regulations, and so on.  Became a much better
game.


In my trade system
(http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html) I explicitly
state that the players are looking for the 'best deal', and that is what they
find.  They _could_ find another good, but I wouldn't necessarily make it
cheap for them.  After all, I'm assuming that any 'guaranteed profits' have
been locked up by more settled corporations with regular runs.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #396
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 9 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 397

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Government
         2. Re: Re: Potential problems with running T4
         3. New Traveller Software
         4. Re: Java Programming
         5. Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?
         6. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
         7. Re: Broken Space Privateers.
         8. Re: Broken Space Privateers.
         9. Re: Warfare (was Marines)
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396
        11. My worst fears have been realized...
        12. Re: Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?
        13. Re: Sherbrooke 
        14. Re: Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?
        15. Laser comm over *long* distances
        16. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
        17. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
        18. Re: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 
        19. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
        20. T4?
        21. TL-16 Sub 100ton ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:32:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

>In a message dated 96-09-06 02:58:20 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on the
>
> average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A palace
>for 
> the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial representative 
> for the world?
>  >>

I always thought that the worlds could have their own government, but that
each world had a "noble" assigned to it.  The noble was responsible for
seeing to it that Imperial laws were implemented, imperial taxes were
implemented, etc...  
  The reason for "this reasoning" is how does one justify a "democracy"
under an Imperial rule?

  Question:  The job income for player characters is based upon what?  What
basis of comparison is there for saying how much tax income the Imperium
gets and so forth.  My copy of Trillion Credit Squadron (CT) shows the navy
getting roughly 500 credits of tax income per person per year.  So what do
the other branches get?  How much does the government get?  If one assumes
that military spending is up to 10% of the total package of taxes, then the
government is collecting one hefty amount of tax dough!

Hal


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Sep 1996 20:59:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Potential problems with running T4

>If you are running a campaign, I suggest not using prepared adventures unless
your 
>players don't mind having that pre-determination feeling. 

Actually, I've had a lot of luck running preprepared adventures.  The key is
to give the players a lot of choice about the _style_ of the adventure
(merchant, mercenary, spy, diplomacy, exploration...) and a choice about how
they became involved.  I always give my players some 'time off' between
adventures where we do some free-form character development: the academics
write books and teach classes, the technicals retrain, repair, and invent
things, and the grunts blow their last commission on Pan-Galactic
Gargleblasters.  I also let the merchant captain do some routine trading,
with the understanding that they must reach a certain planet.

This is a workable compromise for my groups.  We just decided that we were
only gaming the most exciting parts of life.  (I also collapse time during an
adventure: "After many harrowing hours lost in the jungle, you hear...")

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Sep 1996 21:50:07 GMT
Subject: New Traveller Software

Thanks for all the advice about getting my software up on the net.  It may not
be efficient, but you can now download four applications from my traveller
site (http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/traveller.html).  The
programs are:

MegaCharacter II - a MegaTraveller character generator.

MegaLinguist - converts text samples to language tables.

MegaMercenary - uses the abstract system from CT Mercenary (slightly updated)
to resolve a battle.

Metator - The application I've been talking about for a month.  Currently in
alpha release, this program converts a raw UWP into a complete system.  You
get a system listing, colour maps and charts, and fully expanded worlds
(maps, survey results, census data, customs, trade goods, animal encounter
tables, and so forth).  The user interface needs work, and a few things are
incomplete (still waiting for T4), but take a look and let me know what you
think.

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:30:55 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Java Programming

Moin Rob Prior,

> I have a couple of Grade 12/OAC programming students interested in writing
> Traveller software using Java.  Seeing as I just started learning Java myself
> (and haven't found a free Java for the Mac yet), I can't give them any
> support.

	Java is great for writing games !

> Would someone on the TML be willing to be an email resource for them?  

	A first start will be the Java-Sector Viewer (I think about
	incorporating trade in it) Also I would advice reading
	"Java in a Nutshell" this book is cheap and usable.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 23:07:11 +0200
Subject: Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?

Hi!

Please excuse this off-topic question, but I'm visiting Canada next week and
would like to add some books to my Traveller collection there, especially
try to buy a copy of the new Traveller 4ed. 

Could anybody here please recommend a gaming store in/near Vancouver that
sells Traveller items? 

Thanks,
bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...come on, kiss the frog
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 13:52:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

David J. Golden wrote:
> 

> 
>         Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
> forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
> forgotten)

The "assassins" book was "Scouts and Assassins."  I don't know the name of the other 
one.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 13:28:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Broken Space Privateers.

Les Howie wrote:
> 
> At 05:36 PM 9/7/96 -0400, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> >
> >I don't remember the comments on "Barret's Privateers," but I know the song:
> >
> 
> My favourite, about the only song I know all the way though.
> 
> >Oh, the year was 1778
> >(how I wish I were in <brain misfire/fart> now!)
>                         ^ Sherbrooke
> Its a little village a ways up the Eastern Shore
> 
> >A Letter of Marque came from the King
> >To the Scummiest Vessel I've ever seen
> >
> >       God damn them all! I was told
> >       We'd get rich on American Gold
>              -----------
>              ^cruise the seas for
> 
> >       We'd fire no guns, shed no tears . . . .
> >       Now I'm a legless man on a Halifax pier
>                   ^broken
> 
> I'm pretty sure its "broken" anyway, you find out how in the last verse.
> The site of the hypothetical pier is visible from my office window.
> 
> >       The last of Barret's Privateers!
> >

NOW it comes back to me . . . . I can't see how I forgot it!

> 
> The song has a good beat, can actually be sung by untrained mail chorus with
> beer accompanyment and cries for use as an adventure tie in
> 
> "We cruise the rift
>     for Syle-e-an gold"
> "Fire no beams, shed no tears"
> "Now I'm a broken Varge on an imperium pier..."


Y'know, we could possibly do an adventure based on "Barret's Privateers" like Susan 
suggested a message or three back. Hmmm....
> 
> 
> 
> >My mind is not in music mode now . . . ;)
> 
> >Still a good song. I didn't know he was Canadian.
> 
> Sad thought "he was so good no one knew he was Canadian" :-(  He was from
> Ontario, but his father's people (I think) were from Nova Scotia.  I
> dicovered his music in the 80's, after he died in an airliner fire in the
> US.  Annoys me the he was giving concerts in the 70's not a kilometer from
> where I was at University, and I didn't have the sense to go see him.

Strange thought, that. Makes me wish I knew more about the Canadian contribution to 
North American culture. I never got the chance to see him, either. 

> 
> I think his song was meant to be reflective of an anti war sentiment rather
> than historical, since our privateers were almost uniformly successful :-)

The folkies I know here in the left armpit of California agree with you, Les, about the 
antiwar tone of Barrett's Privateers. The historical record is also on your side, too, 
damn it all. We 'Amuricuns' faired poorly at sea, John Paul Jones notwithstanding;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 13:58:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Broken Space Privateers.

Victor J. Raymond wrote:
> 
> What a way to delurk...
> 
> "Barret's Privateers" is a great song...so much so that some folks ended up
> making a filk of it for the Minnesota Renaissance Festival: "Walker's
> Volunteers"
> 
> It was back in the summer of '78
>         How I wish I was in New Hope now!
> When a balding man with an MFA
> Sat down at a piano and began to play
>         Goddamn them all/I was told
>         Out contracts would be lined with gold
>         We'd sing old songs/Drink good beer
>         Now I'm a drunken man in a Renaissance Faire
>         The last of Walker's volunteers...

ROFLMAO!!!! 

I wonder if anyone's ever done a filk about playing Traveller? <eg>

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 14:09:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Warfare (was Marines)

R.D. Elliott wrote:

> >
> >Didn't see Babe . . .
> 
>         Well worth seeing.  My girlfriend forced to to sit down and watch
> it at gunpoint.  I was fully expecting to look like Alex in A Clockwork
> Orange after a few moments, but I actually wound up really enjoying it.  It
> has great production values...

I'll have to rent it. 
> 
> >but Hollywood butchers _everything_. Look at what they did to Tom
> >Clancy's books in the movies (List shudders in horror as TC jumps threads
> >and populace
> >of List prepares to cast grenades/cruise missiles at the idiot at
> >stormhvn@inreach.com).
> >
> 
>         Agreed.  I thought the underwater scenes in Hunt for Red October
> were pretty hokey, and that was just for starters...

I just about hjorked up a hairball over THFRO in cinema  . . . TC himself damn near 
disavowed the movie _Patriot Games_. Seems that the movie moguls wanted to have the big 
boat chase end  with the terrorist's boat going aground on a coral reef -- ON CHESAPEAKE 
BAY!!
>
> >At least you bothered to take a look at the history books. Very good on you ;)
> >
> 
>         I can't help myself..:).  Seriously though, Braveheart is on the
> level of rewriting U.S. History with George Washington switching sides
> three times, Paul Revere sleeping with the Queen of England, and Valley
> Forge taking place in the Florida Keys.  Real annoying.

	Wait a minute! I thought it was Geoege Washington sleeping with Paul Revere 
_and_ the Queen of England three times . . . :)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:27:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396

unsubscribe traveller digest

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:24:27 -0400
Subject: My worst fears have been realized...

        I just read on rec.games.frp.misc that there is a TRAVELLER comic
coming out (it's been mentioned in Previews two months in a row)from Maximum
Press, the company owned by Rob Liefeld.
        Say it ain't so, Marc...
        Rob Liefeld couldn't draw if he had a stencil! IF he isn't actually
doing the art, then it might be passable. If he is...well, I own a cat...and
she has a litter box...
        This, of course, is IMHO.
        `                               Allen

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:22:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?

Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
>Please excuse this off-topic question, but I'm visiting Canada next week 
>and would like to add some books to my Traveller collection there, 
>especially try to buy a copy of the new Traveller 4ed.
> 
>Could anybody here please recommend a gaming store in/near Vancouver 
>that sells Traveller items?

There are a number of fine gaming stores in Vancouver.  If price is no 
option and you are staying near the downtown core I'd advise going to 
D-Games People in Gastown, it's right down by the Seabus and Skytrain 
terminals.  I think it's still there, haven't been in there in years.  
Probably the best store as far as any gaming material is concerned is 
Imperial Hobbies in Richmond, not far from the airport, ten minutes 
perhaps, it's a little awkward to find but Francis has the best 
collection of stuff in the Lower Mainland and his prices are generally a 
little cheaper than anyone else.

I make a weekly pilgramage to Francis's to check things out.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:37:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke 

At 04:04 PM 9/8/96 -0400, you wrote:

>	Sherbrooke is NOT a "little village"!  We're what, 80,000
>here? We have two Universities??  Unless yhou're referring to another
>Sherbrooke.  This Sherbrooke is in Quebec.

Every noticed how, once the English liked a name, they kept using it over
and over all the way across the country?  The Sherbrooke I am refering to is
a very small community (there might be a thousand people there) up the
Eastern Shore of Nova Scotia.  Its probably the only Sherbrooke where (1)
someone named Barrett would have been recruiting prvateers against the Yanks
in 1778 and (2) Halifax would have been a significant stop along the way.

Weak traveller tie in: If you like a place name USE IT.  REPEATEDLY. Confuse
the players with fifty different planets all named in the Old Vilani word
meaning "New Colony"!

My Canada includes at least half a dozen places called
Amherst-something-or-other :-)

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 19:03:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Gaming Store in Vancouver Area?

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >Please excuse this off-topic question, but I'm visiting Canada next week
> >and would like to add some books to my Traveller collection there,
> >especially try to buy a copy of the new Traveller 4ed.
> >
> >Could anybody here please recommend a gaming store in/near Vancouver
> >that sells Traveller items?
> 
> There are a number of fine gaming stores in Vancouver.  If price is no
> option and you are staying near the downtown core I'd advise going to
> D-Games People in Gastown, it's right down by the Seabus and Skytrain
> terminals.  I think it's still there, haven't been in there in years.
> Probably the best store as far as any gaming material is concerned is
> Imperial Hobbies in Richmond, not far from the airport, ten minutes
> perhaps, it's a little awkward to find but Francis has the best
> collection of stuff in the Lower Mainland and his prices are generally a
> little cheaper than anyone else.
> 
> I make a weekly pilgramage to Francis's to check things out.  8)
> 
> Derek StanleyBy all means go to imperial hobbies he had 4 copies of t4 last week

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Laser comm over *long* distances

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> 
> > To the comment that a laser weapon couldn't be used as a distress
> > signal---nonsense!  One, you could always modulate the power if
> > nothing else.
> 
> Do you have *any* idea what it takes to "modulate" that sort of power
> level?

A switch. :)  Seriously, just turning the puppy on and off is fine.  
Coherent light arriving at a system and blinking on some regular schedule 
will be interpreted as a beacon, without any further encoding necessary.

There's a very nice rule of thumb used in the backcountry.  Three of 
*anything*...rifle shots, signal fires, flares, flashes with a mirror, 
*anything*...is a (possible) distress signal.  Two of anything means "we 
heard you "  Were I out in The Big Empty with no J-drive but a laser and 
lots of power, I'd program the laser to send three flashes, as closely 
spaced and brief as the laser could manage, once per day, then climb into 
the low berth and pray.  Lots easier and lower power use than encoding 
SOS in Morse, and just as likely to get attention.

> > Two, as to it being dangerous (didn't the post say something about it
> > being seen as a weapon?), nah.
> 
> No, I said they were *designed* as a weapon. The requirements aare
> *very* different.

Though to avoid wasting power, I'm sure that weapon lasers can be cycled
on and off relatively quickly, and that's all that really matters.  BTW,
Larry Niven's story "The Warriors" turns on a similar question -- I highly
recommend it. 

> > The laser weapn would be better, though.  Actually, this might be a
> > good arguement for tunable lasers (assuming we don't redo the
> > atmospheric attenuation rules which favor x-ray lasers).  A tunable
> > laser weapon could be used in a FM mode for commo in emergencies.
> 
> Again, do you have *any* idea of the difference between being "tunable"
> and being able to frequency modulate?

I agree FM is probably out of the question.  AM might be more easily 
achieved, depending on the laser design.

> > First you'd spend some time figuring out where you are.  Then you'd
> > beam a laser signal (weapon, preferably) to the nearest *world* with
> > commo (your computer will have to adjust for the flight time of the
> > messege, and maybe raster the signal around a little). 
> 
> The beam can't be focused anywhere *near* well enough to hit *just* a
> world at those distances. Probably not well enough to hit *just* the
> inner system!

Completely true, though you could get the 3db lobe into about the orbit 
of Saturn from 1 parsec, if I've done my back-of-the-envelope correctly.

> There are three kinds of modulation: Pulse, amplitude, and frequency.
> 
> Pulse modulation (PM) switches the signal on and off. It may be simple
> and crude like Morse code, or it may be more complex. It generally
> breaks down into PWM and PCM. PWM uses the *width* of the pulse as the
> signalling element. PCM (pulse code modulation) uses fixed width pulses
> and fixed inter-pulse intervals. The info is the presence or absence of
> pulses.

Two examples:  Morse code is PWM, serial data on a modem line is PCM.

> AM gets messier. The main problem is that you need a modulator. That
> is, something capable of varying the level of the power the laser is
> outputting according to a much weaker signal being fed into it. This
> requires rather large and specialized equipment. Worse, it requires the
> device whose output is being modulate to be *designed* to accept
> partial output levels, something that is just *not* going to be done
> with a weapon (it makes the design a *lot* more complex and subject  to
> failure). So not only is a ship unlikely to have a suitable AM
> modulator, even if one is kludged together, the odds are that the laser
> can't be run at arbitrary power levels.

I think you're (slightly) overestimating the difficulty of giving a laser
AM capabilities...and were I a starship weapon manufacturer, I'd build it
in as a selling point.  "Not only does the new Iludium Q-37 100 MW laser
feature our award-winning HandWavePro gravitic focusing, it comes with an
AM signal shunt at *NO EXTRA CHARGE*!  When you misjump into the Great
Rift, you'll be glad you have it -- or sorry you don't!"  This is so
potentially useful and relatively cheap that I'd tend to assume any
non-KMart laser would have it. 

> FM requires no merely a tunable laser, but one that can be tuned while
> operating, rather than between shots. The rate at which the frequency
> can be changed is the critical factor here. And again, it's unlikely to
> be suitable for signalling purposes.

And unless you need the noise-resistance to capture your plaintive cries
for help in pristine clarity across 20 trillion miles of empty vacuum,
there's not real point to FM in this application. 

> I'd say that the only remotely workable possibiliity is using a
> continous beam laser in some sort of pulse modulation. As long as the
> laser allows "short" pulses (say between .1 sec and 10 sec) *and* it
> allows such pulse for extended periods, we have a chance.

I can't imagine a laser which wouldn't allow a 10/10 sec duty cycle
indefinitely. 

[re: sending SOS in Morse]
> At 10 seconds per pulse, that's 6 minutes. 

What, you have something better to do with your time? :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 22:36:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On 09/07/96 at 08:10 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins
>(title forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and
>Scouts (title forgotten)

Hey, I've got them, let me go dig them out....yeah here they are! They are
both slim little booklets, but I didn't pay much for them back in 1981. <g>

SCOUTS & ASSASSINS 
    The Scout Character Generation and a couple of Ship
descriptions.  The Assassin Character Generation is for the
Assassins Guild and is a couple of pages in the back.

MERCHANTS & MERCHANDISE
    A Merchant Advanced Character Generation process and the first
    appearance of several skills we all know and love.  There are
    several equipment/merchandise descriptions in the back.
    
I never bought the Intellegence Agent booklet, kicking myself, but I
remember seeing it in the stores.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 22:41:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On 09/07/96 at 10:36 PM,  Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:

> Scouts & Assassins
> Merchants & Merchandise

> SOTAG I was disappointed in, but the other two are pretty good.

Maybe that's why I didn't buy it.  Looked at it and put it back, I'll bet.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:32:22 -0400
Subject: Re: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 

Hello Folks,
  Just a simple question: <heh heh heh>

  If it is possible to jump 36 parsecs - as per the "accidental misjump
system" for determining the exit point of a jump, would not the DROYN have
come up with the ability to control entry into Jump 36?  If so, (or if not,
why not?), what are the requirements for being able to jump 36 parsecs?  The
energy requirements are such that only the energy required for a jump one is
required -  the rest of the problem is a matter of control.

Hal


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:25:04 -0800
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

On  8 Sep 96 at 13:51, Larry Hadley spewed:

>    Probably because they were both copied from Niven's Kzin.

The look, or the alien?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: JENSM@scc.se (Johan Emanuelson)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:15:14 +0000
Subject: T4?

I know this must be an old story to you, but I've had difficulties 
getting information about Traveller 4th edition.

Please tell me more about T4! Why T4? Who is releasing it? How is it 
relating to the older editions (both in terms of rules and background 
story)? 

Johan Emanuelson, Malmo, Sweden
jensm@scc.se

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 05:07:31 -0400
Subject: TL-16 Sub 100ton ships

Steve Charlton wrote about allowing TL-16 ships to be less then 100 
tons.I like this, it even fits with canon, or at least we can 
force canon to agree with it.  Prior to The Regency Sourcebook 
we never saw a starship under 100 tons. The RSB had the jump boat,
We can say that the shipyards building the jump boats were on
the verge of TL-16 and this ability.  The Regency is able to 
produce TL-16 ships,like the Darrian Patrol cruiser, in its
shipyards.  

This also helps us get rid of the problem of Jump Torpedoes, by saying
that the Imperium can't produce them.  Well it doesn't actually get
rid of the probelm , just postpones it to later.

Finally it would allow the Darriens to have a totally different
ship design philosphy then the rest of the universe.  
Lewis

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #397
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 9 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 398

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: My worst fears have been realized...
         2. Re: Imperial Government
         3. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
         4. Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic
         5. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs
         6. Re: Sherbrooke
         7. Re: Thoughts on Trade
         8. Gverdon Sector
         9. Re: Apology -Reply
        10. HTML Advice -Reply
        11. Re: Tell me more about T4!
        12. Euro Gen Con
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #397

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:18:59 +1000
Subject: Re: My worst fears have been realized...

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

>         I just read on rec.games.frp.misc that there is a TRAVELLER comic
> coming out (it's been mentioned in Previews two months in a row)from Maximum
> Press, the company owned by Rob Liefeld.
>         Say it ain't so, Marc...
>         Rob Liefeld couldn't draw if he had a stencil! IF he isn't actually
> doing the art, then it might be passable. If he is...well, I own a cat...and
> she has a litter box...
>         This, of course, is IMHO.
>         `                               Allen
> 

I agree, but It will sell like hotcakes. That alone has to be good.


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:15:50 +1000
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

Re : Imperial Presence.

IMHO , the Imperium would have enclaves (where Imperial, not local laws 
apply) an any A,B and C Starport. Take Pournelle's Co-Dominion as an 
example. While the plabet is not planning inserection against the throne or 
disrupting 
trade, breaking imperial eidicts whatever, The I-men will leave you 
alone. Break any of the above and meet Mr Augumented BattleDress 

Possable Imerial activities at an enclave :

1. A X-Boat collation point. A transmition point where all message to the 
X-boat system is collated and beamed to the X-Boat changeover point. 
While this is likely to be automated, the location needs to be protected 
(guards, security systems , point defence). 

2. Imperial Consule. A person outside the local Feudal chain of command, 
to co-ordinate travel permits to Imperial and Non Imerial worlds, 
co-ordinate customs enforcement, Act as a sort of Interpol for the local 
government(s), etc. Could be a career Mandarin or a Navy officer, or a 
imperial noble.

3. ImpSec. Possable manned inside the Imperial Consolate, collates 
infomation for local forces or Imperial command (subsector/sector etc).

4. Beuro for Callander Compliance, and other Vilani organisations ment to 
stifle technolagy (whoops , I mean enforce Imperial safty legislation  
and tax regime etc) 


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:15:30 PST
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>> > >> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much
>> > >> like the Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were
>> > >> there first, they (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we
>> > >> don't want to look like we're copying.
>> 
>> Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any 
>> judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW 
>> didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...
>
>    Probably because they were both copied from Niven's Kzin.

And C.J. Cherryh's Hani, and the alien's in Christopher Anvil's
"Pandora's Planet" and a host of others.

Stealing from *one* source is plaigarism. Stealing from a whole bunch
is "research".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:05:08 PST
Subject: Re: IG's Aslan Warrior graphic

In mail you write:

> On  7 Sep 96 at 1:00, Leonard Erickson spewed:
>
>> >> In addition, the Aslan graphic was trying to not look too much
>> >> like the Kilrathi (from Wing Commander). Even though we were
>> >> there first, they (Kilrathi from Wing Commander) have an image we
>> >> don't want to look like we're copying.
>
>> The alternative is to look to some folks like anpother TSR, using
>> lawyers instead of quality to corner the market.
>
> Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any 
> judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW 
> didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...

I've never played it either. But I have read one of the novels that
"spun off" (hey it was by one of my favorite authors, I bought it and
*then* found out it was a game spin-off).

They may not be terribly similar. And they almost certainly aren't
similar enough to win a copyright infringement case. But *trying* to
win such a case would make IG look like TSR to some folks.

> As for looking like TSR, there's a world of difference.  TSR tends to 
> steal other people's work, get upset when somebody copies their 
> stolen goods, and then defend it...  Tolkein, Arneson, etc...  I have 
> no problem with somebody defending their own creation.  Frankly, you 
> shouldn't either...
>
> Companies that don't defend their copyrights don't last too long...

Copyrights aren't "defended". Trademarks are. Copyrights may be
infringed, in which case you can nail the turkeys, but you can also
just go "Oh, it's some fans, ignore them" with no danger to your
copyright. 

The only way to lose a copyright is for it to expire (now a matter of
50-75 years after the author dies!) or to have someone prove that you
didn't really write it, or that you stole not merely the idea, but the
*expression* of the idea. 

In other words, Tolkein couldn't sue Terry Brooks, even though the idea
in Sword of Shannara is almost identical to the one Lord of the Rings
is based on. On the other hand, if someone took either book and
essentially did a search and replace on the character names, *they*
would be in big trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:36:27 PST
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs

In mail you write:

>  
>> Do you have *any* idea what it takes to "modulate" that sort of power
>> level?
>
> Do you have *any* idea how to directly control strong and weak
> forces?  That's not the rationale, but we're talking TL10+ here.  We
> can't even *make* the lasers they have.  

My point is that modulating high power signals is *known* technology.
They'll quite likely ring a lot of changes on it, but it's just not the
sort of thing that you'd build into a weapon, as it complicates things
and adds failure points.

We could rig your car so you could modulate the exhaust for use as a PA
system, too. But why would anyone add all the extra complications?

> Have the gravtic focusing turn off and on, so only part of the pulse
> will get that benefit.  There, I've changed the pulse width.  Also,
> note that arguements about beam spreading don't take Bruce's gravtic
> focussing ideas into play.  Gravtic fucusing is "fact" for this
> discussion (it being traveller, not RL).

"Width" as in *duration*. Morse code uses PWM. Dashes are longer than
dots. There's no way that anybody on the far end is gonna know that the
beam *width* has changed. They *might* notice that it got dimmer, but
unlikely. 

>> With continuous lasers, we have to consider the following factors. Rise
>> time is how fast the power can go from off to on, without damaging
>> anything. Fall time is how fast it can go from on to off, again without
>> damaging anything. Those control any sort of PM we might try.
>
> Use the gravtics to do this.  I say it can.  If Marc says it can,
> then it works :-)  Gravtics/damper tech are the big physics nullifier
> areas in traveller, use them, they're there already!

Except that they *aren't*. Using gravity to focus is one thing. We know
gravity can do that, it's just handwaving as to how to get it to do it
when we want. Likewise, we know that the weak force and the
electromagnetic force are part of the same "electro-weak" force
(similar to the way electric and magnetic forces are part of the
electromagnetic force). We know that the weak force controls some types
of nuclear reactions. We also suspect (but haven't proven yet) that the
strong force and the electro-weak force tie together too. The strong
force controls the rest of the nuclear eactions.

BTW, you *might* manage to argue that gravitics can change the
rise/fall time of the *pulse* (but it'll take a *lot* of arguing). But
you *can't* argue that they will affect the rise fall times of the
*power system*. And *that* is the bottleneck I'm talking about. When
something is carrying a lot of power, there are severe restrictions on
how fast you can change the power level without frying everything in
sight.

>> AM gets messier. The main problem is that you need a modulator. That
>> is, something capable of varying the level of the power the laser is
>> outputting according to a much weaker signal being fed into it. This
>> requires rather large and specialized equipment. Worse, it requires the
>> device whose output is being modulate to be *designed* to accept
>> partial output levels, something that is just *not* going to be done
>> with a weapon (it makes the design a *lot* more complex and subject  to
>> failure). So not only is a ship unlikely to have a suitable AM
>> modulator, even if one is kludged together, the odds are that the laser
>> can't be run at arbitrary power levels.
>
> Again, modulate the gravtic carrier pulse.  If we assume (since it
> ain't nailed down) the gravtic pulse following the beam model we
> might have a modulated grav pulse that results in more beam spread
> in some parts of the pulse.

That's only shifting the problem from modulating the power level of the
laser output to modulate the power level of the gravity field. And on a
*continous beam* laser, the focusing can't be a following pulse,
anyway. That only works with *pulse* lasers.

And modulating the gravity field is actually going to be *harder*
simply because of the *known* way that changes in gravity field
strength affect light. You need even *more* control to do it that way
than you would to do it via the laser power level. 

Again, the problem is in the controlling of the power, when dealing
with such high power levels. Changing from controlling the power going
into the laser output stasge to controlling the power going into the
grav focuser makes no difference. Either way you are trying to
"smoothly" vary the power *input* to something that was designed around
some rather specific "on/off" conditions. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:22:07 PST
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

In mail you write:

> Weak traveller tie in: If you like a place name USE IT.  REPEATEDLY. Confuse
> the players with fifty different planets all named in the Old Vilani word
> meaning "New Colony"!
>
> My Canada includes at least half a dozen places called
> Amherst-something-or-other :-)

I seem to recall that more than half the states in the US have a town
named "Salem". And there are several "Portland"s. And of course the
pernnial problem here in the Northwest: Vancouver. Do you nean the town
in Washington, the city in BC, or the Island in BC?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:17:25 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

In mail you write:

>  >And at what point to the large corps come in, and
>  >what about the nascent megacorps after them?
>
>         The corps will come in after the free traders have sniffed around 
> with their spec trading and discovered which goods and which routes are 
> money-makers.
>         In terms of modelling this in game terms, the simplest way would 
> be to have price modifiers which would bring prices on 
> different planets closer together depending on location.  There could be 
> three levels: Core, Frontier, Deeps.  Price differences in the Deeps 
> would be at their fullest extent while price differences in the Core 
> would be greatly reduced in Year 0 to non-existent in later centuries.
>         For a merchant prince campaign, a more complex system could be 
> used where the ref figured out likely trade routes and assigned shipping 
> to them.  Using a price deflator for competition (yet to be created), he 
> could then figure out the market price along those routes.

I can't help but think that one thing T4 should adopt from SF is an
idea from Andre Norton's "Solar Queen" series. Once the Scout Service
has made "First Contact", or surveyed a world that doesn't seem to have
intelligent life, the trading rights are auctioned off in a sealed bid
auction. 

What the "rights" give you is a monopoly on trade with the natives for
a fixed period (10 years?). Unless it is obvious that there's a good
deal, the corps tend to let the Free Traders get the initial rights. If
the planet is a bust, tradewise, it's not their problem. If it does
have something that is valuable, they can try to buy the rights from
the trader (or try dirty tricks if they think that they can get away
with it :-)

Uninhabited worlds my tend to get handled more like in H. Beam Piper's
stories. You can try for an Imperial Charter for your company, whichh
is will exploit the planet, and given the Imperium its share of the
profits (if you lose money, that's *your* problem :-). Look at the
history of the Hudson's Bay Company, and the British East India
company. 

In areas that have been inside the Imperium for a while, the situation
is more like current world trade. There are already "established"
routes. If you want to make money, you find a way to do things faster
or cheaper than the competition, or you think of a new trading angle
(like PepsiCo making that deal to swap Pepsi for Stolichoyna straight
across. A *beautiful* example of "lateral thinking" to get around a
problem with trade rules and exchamge rates)

So, as usual, the frontiers will be where the guy with a small ship and
a willingness to take chances can make a *big* fortune. The more
established areas will be more a matter of spotting a good deal here or
there. It's a different *sort* of trading.

>  >the GM should realize that the route is being exploited already, and ref 
>  >the spec trade process accordingly - which means that there may be _no_ 
>  >cargos of the specified type available at a price that the PCs can live 
>  >with.
>
>         I always thought the "cargo availability" stuff was a bit awkward. 
> If I land on an industrial world of a 100 million people, shouldn't I be
> able to find just about any industrial good I want?  If there are people
> out there who want to buy things but can't because of shortages, you've
> got a pretty inefficient economy.  On really small or low-tech worlds the
> system makes a bit more sense, but not many worlds are _that_ small.  

Nope. Stop and consider. If you take a freighter to Japan, *sure* you
can buy enough cars to fill it for a trip back to the States. But
unless you can buy them *cheap*, you'll lose your shirt, because you
can't sell them as cheaply as the guys who have the big car carriers,
and contracts with the manufacturers.

It's not a matter of *efficiency*, it's a case of the market already
being "taken". 

>         A good merchant campaign should allow players to notice that
> there's a big overcapacity in holographic memories on Planet A, while
> Planet B 3 parsecs over is experiencing an economic boom and prices there
> are much higher. This is the sort of thing that being a Free Trader and 
> opening new trade routes is all about.  It shouldn't just be a matter of 
> comparing UWPs, IMHO.  An ex-Scout who used to do economic surveys would 
> make an excellent Free Trader.

Okay, this is a case of either a *temporary* situation or of a *new*
market/supply opening up. Big corps are much more interesting in being
able to keep racking up that 10% month after month than in having to
reschedule some ships for a situation that'll only last a few months.
It's not worth the extra trouble, even if the profit is 30%. So
temporary surpluses/shortages are one of the ways a small trader makes
good.

If a new market opens up, or a new supply does, both the small guys
*and* the big guys are going to be interested. But as long as the small
guy doesn't screw up, he can react faster. 

Another trick, gleaned from Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love" is that
most traders, especially the big outfits go for a double-ended run.
That is, you pick up something that is cheap at A, but sells well at B.
At B you pick up something that sells well at A. 

This sort of run is easy, as long as the market is steady. You can
start at either end with some cash, and just keep building profits.
Megacorps love these runs. Damn few Free Traders have a chance.

But the prize for a Free Trader is finding a *three* cornered run.
Point A has somethiong that point B wants. Point B has something that
point C wants, and C has something that A wants. Get an intitial cargo
at A, and follow the route A->B->C->A... and you'll make lots of money.
Get it backwards and you'll *lose* money just as fast. 

Adding more hops tends to increase the risks without a proportional
increase in profits.

Here on Earth, the most famous triangular trade was sailing to Africa
to pick up slaves, selling the slaves in the Caribbean for rum, and
selling the rum in New England for cotton cloth and cheap beads, which
you used to buy more slaves in Africa. 

So any viable trade system needs to allow for a relatively constant
demand for certain items, as well as a relatively constant *supply* of
others. And those items *should* be determined by world type. Just be
sure to have a fair number of possibilitities to choose from. This will
give you your long term trade patterns. And no one has ever drawn up
this sort of thing!

The sort of thing all the trade tables I've seen are intended for is
"speculative trade". That's the "temporary market/supply" bit. In this
sort of trade, all cargoes are pretty much one-shot. Say, for example,
you are in Yokohama and find out that there's a lot of 100 or so cars
available because of a last minute change in an order from America
(some order for a corporate fleet "bumped" the cars off the ship, and
made them "surplus"). If you've got room to haul them, you might happen
to know that some place in Africa or South America that normally gets
cars "thru" some other country would pay high prices for them, and
they'd likely have something (ore, spices, fruits, handcrafted stuff)
that you can sell somewhere else.

But we need *long term* trade tables, and we also need them to include
a roll for a change in circumstances (the mine played out, they
switched to a different crop, they produce higher tech stuff now,
whatever) both good and bad. That way, there's always the chance that a
new market or supply will open or an old one will go away. 

But the long term stuff isn't much fun for most players, except when
they are *establishing* the trade, or trying to salvage the pieces
after a change.

On the other hand, it is something the *refs* would really like to
have. It gives you a better idea of how the planets interrelate.

BTW, just one interesting "side effect" of a long term trade setup.
Consider that with J1 or J2, you may only have a few possible "trading
partners". And they'll likely be playing the "middleman" role that made
the Middle East so rich. 

No consider what happens when J3 comes in. Suddenly, you can make one
jump trades with people you couldn't trade with directly before. That's
gonna shake things up a lot.

So every time there is a local *or* a general increase in things like
jump tech, the trade patterns are gonna shift *radically*. And that
makes for all sorts of oportunities.

Funny thing. In the Year 0, we have:

1. new frontiers (expanding the Empire)
2. improved jump tech
3. improved power sources, etc

#1 gives lots of room for exploration, and new goods and markets.

#2 gives a major shakeup in existing markets. 

#3 gives a whole bunch opf new/improved products.

So the traders will be busy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 06:09:56 -0400
Subject: Gverdon Sector

John Macek asked about stats for Gvurdun Sector, check out 
http://www.oslonet.no/home/myhre/ku
It does the sector, and alot about the different political
bodies int he area. Its really well done.
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:35:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Apology -Reply

On 09/07/96 at 02:56 AM,  34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M.
Shock) said:

>        I'm sorry if my posting the UUENCODED character sheet GIFS ticked
>anyone off. I simply wanted to pass them along to everyone and couldn't
>seem to get them uploaded to anywhere. I hereby promise not to do that
>again.

>Allan,

>It didn't tick me off, but I didn't get the character sheets either. I'd like to
>receive them, but please send them to my email address directly.
><g>
>  BTW, when your message got to me it was empty.  The digest I got that
>included your uuencoded files chopped off at the point where they
>would have been too.  The problem was them coming *through* the
>listserver to get to me, I think.  

>Did *anybody* actually get those uuencoded files?

Yup, I got 'em. They look great! Nice job, Allen, I'm glad you posted them to
the list.

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 08:47:45 -0400
Subject: HTML Advice -Reply

>I placed the software in the same directory as all my other Traveller
>material.  From my home directory, this is <public_html/GamingClub>.  I
>then tried using the tag:

[tag snipped]

>(MegaCharacter_II.sit.bin is the name of the file.)  When I try to access it
>using Netscape, I get a message that www.interlog.com is refusing
>access.  
>
>Any suggestions?

You need to get to a UNIX prompt, go to the directory where you have
saved the file, and use chmod to change the file permissions. I believe the
command is something like:
chmod <filename> 664
but I could be wrong. Look at the man pages for chmod when you log in
by typing: man chmod. 

Hope this helps!

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:07:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Tell me more about T4!

At 18:36 9/8/96 +0000, Johan wrote:
>I know this must be an old story to you all, but I have had difficulties 
>getting information about Traveller 4th edition. 
>
>Why T4? Who is releasing it? How is it relating to the older
>generations of Traveller (both in terms of rules and background 
>story)?
>
>Please tell me more about T4! 
>
>Johan Emanuelson, Malmo, Sweden
>jensm@scc.se

It is the 4th revision of Traveller.  It is being produced by Marc Miller at
Imperium Games.  The best place to go for imformation is their web site at
http://www.imperiumgames.com/

BTW I've not gotten my copy yet. Am waiting for the signed hardbound copy.
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
Nothing!  Nothing!  I've got absolutely nothing for sale.
"History of the World, Part I"
  


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:20:07 +0100
Subject: Euro Gen Con

     Hi all,
     
     I had to unsubscribe from all my RPG lists last month because of the 
     volume of non-work mail my employers were receiving, but things seemed 
     to have quietened down again, so I'm re-subscribing to Traveller 
     digest only.
     
     I don't know if anyone has posted on this subject yet, but I thought I 
     would give my impression of European Gen Con.
     
     EGC was run by TSR at Loughborough University this year.  The last 
     time I went to EGC was about 4 years ago and it was at Camber Sands 
     Butlin holiday camp (affectionately known as Stalag 14 by the 
     inmates^H^H^H^H^H^H^H attendees).  Loughborough is much closer to my 
     home, so I decided to drive down on Friday afternoon.  I was due to 
     referee in the Traveller tournament, so I thought I'd better allow a 
     couple of hours to meet Andy (Lilly - BITS co-ordinator) and read the 
     rules.
     
     After a 2 and a half hour drive (remember, this is on narrower British 
     roads in a Mini Metro averaging about 80MPH) I was feeling exhausted.  
     I said hi to Andy (who I hadn't met in person before), grabbed a copy 
     of the rules (and bought "A Long Way Home" - the T4 approved adventure 
     produced by BITS, plug, plug ;-)) T-shirt & label (in case I forgot my 
     name, no doubt) and headed for accomodation.
     
     I dumped my stuff, ate, and read the task / combat system.  By this 
     time I was feeling in a complete daze, and the only thing keeping my 
     mind focussed was the fact that I was going to be refereeing in an 
     RPGA sanctioned tournament for the first time, using a set of rules 
     I'd just flipped through and with someone else's adventure (I'm 
     terrible at remembering the details in bought adventures - I usually 
     just wing most of it, but this was a tournament, gulp!).
     
     Back to the main hall.  The other referees looked as nervous as me, so 
     I didn't feel too bad.  I met Jo Grant at some point (like I say I was 
     still in a daze) and one of the referees who is also on the list 
     (sorry, I've forgot your name already - the one working at Newcastle 
     Uni), which was very nice.  The first team of players arrived - they 
     looked pretty serious, so we referees huddled in a corner hoping that 
     one of us would volunteer to go over and ref the game.  Andy chose a 
     "volunteer" and the first game began.  Two other teams arrived, and 
     two other referees went over.  This left me with no players :-(, until 
     the reserves turned up (and I'm sure Andy press-ganged a couple of 
     people...).
     
     "OK, it's only a game and they're here to enjoy themselves" I kept 
     telling myself as I explained the rules (well, actually, one of the 
     players explained the rules to the rest - I believe in delegation 
     ;-)).  Fortunately, it *is* only a game and they *were* there to enjoy 
     themselves.
     
     I won't go into the scenario, in case Andy plans to run it again, but 
     I don't think it's giving too much to say that there is a very 
     definite time limit.  My team started slowly but gradually speeded up 
     until the end which produced such an adrenaline rush.  At T-4 minutes 
     one player had to make a mission critical task check and he failed.  
     Everything stopped as the players looked at me, and the computer 
     expert asked if he could try again.  "Sure", I replied, leaning back 
     in my chair, "in a couple of minutes...".  I let them stew for another 
     60 seconds (hey, "sadism" *is* my middle name) before giving the 
     player another chance.  They finished with 2 minutes to spare.
     
     I think everyone enjoyed themselves (at least they said they enjoyed 
     themselves ;-)), and I would recommend that anyone else play in the 
     adventure if they get the chance.  I don't recommend trying to fill 
     out the RPGA scoring sheets, though; that took almost as long to do as 
     running the adventure ;-).
     
     I retired to bed exhausted at this point, and woke up with what felt 
     like a hangover (except I'd only had one pint all day) in the morning. 
     I refereed one demo game, which was a bit more relaxed for me than the 
     tournament, but had to decline running another because my head felt 
     like it was being squeezed in a vice.  Instead I wandered about 
     looking at all the other games & trade stalls until the bar beckoned.  
     I did manage to play in the tournament adventure (run by Andy for fun) 
     and it was still quite exciting.
     
     On Sunday I lay in, then sat in on a seminar (which wasn't what I was 
     expecting - I thought Ken Whitman was going to be talking).  Oh, did I 
     mention that Ken Whitman was there, as well as Chriss Foss?  
     Unfortunately, I didn't get to speak to either of them as my headache 
     / constant tiredness was making me feel particularly introvert (which 
     is a big shame when you're at a convention :-().
     
     I set off home on Sunday afternoon and found out that my wife had also 
     been feeling unwell over the weekend - I guess there must have been 
     some bug going around.
     
     Right, I'll finish here.  Last paragraph, I promise.  I enjoyed EGC, 
     and would have done so a lot more if I hadn't been feeling under the 
     weather the whole time.  Andy did a great job of organising the 
     Traveller "presence" there, including the Tournament and demos all 
     weekend (as well as selling copies of the rules, and encouraging 
     people to join BITS).  Lots of others helped out, and I think a good 
     time was had by all.  Hopefully, lots of people bought the rules and 
     Traveller was given a high profile in the UK.
     
     Anyway, it's nice to be back on the list again.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:21:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #397

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:32:22 -0400
>Subject: Re: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 
>
>Hello Folks,
>  Just a simple question: <heh heh heh>
>
>  If it is possible to jump 36 parsecs - as per the "accidental misjump
>system" for determining the exit point of a jump, would not the DROYN have
>come up with the ability to control entry into Jump 36?  If so, (or if not,
>why not?), what are the requirements for being able to jump 36 parsecs?  The
>energy requirements are such that only the energy required for a jump one is
>required -  the rest of the problem is a matter of control.
>
>Hal

Well, the "off the cuff" response is that there are only 6 alternate
realities of J-Space (Designated J-1, J-2, J-3, J-4, J-5, and J-6).  How
then can you jump 36 parsecs by accident, I'm not sure, but my guess is that
it has to do with the gravitational effects on J-Space.  We are told that
ships actually travel in J-Space.  It could be that the Gravitational well
(100 dia limit) actually propells a ship faster through jump space than is
possible with a normal entry.  Necessarily, then, this Gravitational effect
would have to be unpredictable and random.  If it weren't random, then J-1
to J-36 would be possible.

I would immagine that if it were possible, Grandfather would have learned
how to control it and therefore would have achieved a stable J-36.  Someone
with the adventure(I think its Secret of the Ancients), can you tell us
whether or not Grandfather's Jump Gates (IIRC he had some of these in his
Pocket Universe) were more than J-6?


Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #398
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 9 September 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 399

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs
         2. RE: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 
         3. TC, LHyd, Miniatures, Lentuli, Copyright
         4. The New K'Kree
         5. My Server Crashed
         6. Tournement Pre-reg is closing Sep 13th!
         7. BITS T4 Adventure
         8. Re: Sherbrooke
         9. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules
        10. Re: My worst fears have been realized...
        11. Droyne and misjumps
        12. Ultra-tech battle
        13. More errors in T4
        14. Re: Sherbrooke
        15. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        16. Re: Thoughts on Trade
        17. Trade
        18. Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:29:45 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Misjumping into Empty Parsecs

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> Do you have *any* idea what it takes to "modulate" that sort of power
> level?

	All I need is to reprogram the firecontroll/beam computer
	to switch the HPG beteen 3 minute pulses (normal for non
	military lasers) and 36 seconds pulses (you normaly use
	this frequency to ignore 0,3 ligth seconds) These two
	frequences are standart on any HPG !

	But most important is that you pray befor you step into
	the low berth, as the chances are minimal ;-(

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:52:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller Aliens(Droyne 

In Reply to Your Message of Mon, 09 Sep 1996 01: 32:22 EDT
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 10:52:12 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Hello Folks,
:   Just a simple question: <heh heh heh>
: 
:   If it is possible to jump 36 parsecs - as per the "accidental misjump
: system" for determining the exit point of a jump, would not the DROYN have
: come up with the ability to control entry into Jump 36?  If so, (or if not,

Just because Grandfather and his children could do it doesn't mean that
all Dryone could. 

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:52:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: TC, LHyd, Miniatures, Lentuli, Copyright

Dear Folks -

1.	EXEC ORDERS

BTW, did you know that Tom Clancy is a mate of Larry Bond (of _Harpoon_ fame
- - another GDW product). They played out _Red Storm Rising_ using Harpoon,
and then Tom wrote it all down. Did a similar thing for _Hunt for Red
October_, AFAIK... (thus says Hyphen, desperately trying to find a link
between TC and T4...;-)

2.	FUEL EXPLOSIONS

Jeff Nort suggested:
> Try this: the chief dons his vacc suit and goes into the tanks to inspect
them.

The rules for this state that _anyone_ immersed in L-Hyd is dead, dead, dead
- - the stuff is so insidious that it penetrates seals on all personal
life-support, even battledress and hostile environment vacc suits.

3.	INFANTRY

Doug said:
>United States Infantry- "Follow Me!"

Safer than being in front, is it? ;-)

4.	MINIATURES AND MAPS

BTW, did you notice that the old deck plans were in half-inches, *NOT* 15mm
per square! (This was almost pointed out by Leonard). The scales are:

	0.5 map inches = 1.5 real metres
	15mm figurines = 6 real feet

Now, 0.5 inches per map square = approx 12.5 mm, when the squares should
really be 15mm.
This means that THE OLD MAPS ARE ALL TOO SMALL for the 15mm figurines we
place upon them!

No wonder it looks as though you can't swing a cat in any of the ships!

5.	IRON FIST

Allen, I've looked thru _Far Traveller_ #1 and #2 (the only issues AFAIK) -
where is the "Iron Fist"?

6.	LENTULI

Loren Wiseman asked:

>Another question: My files are inaccessible to me right now, can some
>kind soul supply me with any HIWG/Imperial Atlas/Other Canon data on
>Lentuli subsector, and the sector in which Lentuli is located? I may
>not need all of the numbers, but I do need to know if such exists.

Gee, I wonder who is doing an article on Bwaps (Newts to the rest of you)?
The article in _JTAS_ #11 mentions the planet Marhaban, of the Lentuli
subsector, in a throwaway opening line. It also says that the Newts are from
"the region trailing and coreward of Capital", within the Imperium.

7.	IG AND COPYRIGHT

Jim Vassilakos sent an open letter about copyright. Part of the answer is
available via my homepage, at:
	www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw

Look for the page entitled: "The Official Word from Imperium Games:
Publishing vs Mailing Lists".

And while you are there, browse the Library Data!
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:22:59 -0400
Subject: The New K'Kree

Greetings everyone,

   In light of the proposed Aslan drawing that was posted to the IG Web site,
I'd like to humbly submit the picture located at the following location as
the model for any new K'kree illustrations:

http://207.17.189.3/tbelding/pinup/Centaur-Photo.jpg

   Those of you with Web access should check it out.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 09 Sep 1996 19:21:33 GMT
Subject: My Server Crashed

Our new Windows NT server crashed this morning and the sysadmin rolled back to
the Saturday backup, so any mail anyone sent me on Sunday or earlier today
has been lost.  If it was important please resend it. Thanks.

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tournement Pre-reg is closing Sep 13th!

Phatasm pre-registration closes September 13th - so get your pre-regs in!

My webpage for details...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:05:02 -0400
Subject: BITS T4 Adventure

>     After a 2 and a half hour drive (remember, this is on narrower British 
>     roads in a Mini Metro averaging about 80MPH) I was feeling exhausted.  
>     I said hi to Andy (who I hadn't met in person before), grabbed a copy 
>     of the rules (and bought "A Long Way Home" - the T4 approved adventure 
>     produced by BITS, plug, plug ;-)) 

        Are there any of these left? How could an American such as myself
get one? What setting is it for?

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 06:54:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I seem to recall that more than half the states in the US have a town
> named "Salem". And there are several "Portland"s. And of course the
> pernnial problem here in the Northwest: Vancouver. Do you nean the town
> in Washington, the city in BC, or the Island in BC?

The great urban legend up here in Vancouver BC was that we'd get mail 
destined for the Vancouver a mere 150 or so miles to the south in 
Washington State.  8)

I wonder who the fool was who decided to name the second Vancouver...

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 12:44:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> > SOTAG I was disappointed in, but the other two are pretty good.
> 
> Maybe that's why I didn't buy it.  Looked at it and put it back, I'll bet.

I did...and I _loved_ it. Here in No. California, it is a mark of distinction among 
long-term Traveller fans to have the Paranoia Press supplements in their bag 'o tricks. 
Especially SORAG! 

However, in a fit of despairation (out of work and all that), I sold my copy at a 
game-con auction (along with the original STRIKER and other goodies I now wish I had).

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 12:52:20 -0700
Subject: Re: My worst fears have been realized...

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> >         I just read on rec.games.frp.misc that there is a TRAVELLER comic
> > coming out (it's been mentioned in Previews two months in a row)from Maximum
> > Press, the company owned by Rob Liefeld.
> >         Say it ain't so, Marc...
> >         Rob Liefeld couldn't draw if he had a stencil! IF he isn't actually
> > doing the art, then it might be passable. If he is...well, I own a cat...and
> > she has a litter box...
> >         This, of course, is IMHO.
> >         `                               Allen
> >
> 
> I agree, but It will sell like hotcakes. That alone has to be good.

Back when CT ruled the gamestore shelves, it was the massive amount of shelf space that 
all those "Liscensed For Traveller" supplements grabbed that gave the game so much 
exposure. In the cross-liscensed, multimedia market environment of the 90s, going into 
comics, tarding cards, movies, software is the same basic strategy.

Okay, Allen, Rob Liefield can't draw a straight line with a ruler . . . but so what? IT 
HAS TO HELP promote the game.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 15:56:45 -0500
Subject: Droyne and misjumps

Tiger said:
> 
> Well, the "off the cuff" response is that there are only 6 alternate
> realities of J-Space (Designated J-1, J-2, J-3, J-4, J-5, and J-6).  How

I've always assumed that there was one, and better jump drives took
better advantage of it.  Alternatively, I guess you could look at
'layers' of jump space, where you go 'through' J-1 space to get to J-2
space, etc.  Picture a spectrum of colored borders around the flickering
opening into jump space, one border for each layer of jump space you go
through.

> then can you jump 36 parsecs by accident, I'm not sure, but my guess is that
> it has to do with the gravitational effects on J-Space.  We are told that
> ships actually travel in J-Space.  It could be that the Gravitational well
> (100 dia limit) actually propells a ship faster through jump space than is
> possible with a normal entry.  Necessarily, then, this Gravitational effect
> would have to be unpredictable and random.  If it weren't random, then J-1
> to J-36 would be possible.

In the above scenario, a misjump may be due to crossing 'folds' in the
'layers' between different jump spaces, with a G-well making the folds
more frequent or convoluted.  

As they go into jump:

	Sensors operator: 'Uh, Captain, sensors here.  That jump portal didn't
feel right.  There seemed to be some extra 'waves' on the monitor ... '

	Captain: '(whisper) oh, sh-t! and 3 months till retirement! (normal)
Sensors get me that tape ASAP. (ringing the supply officer) Chop, I need
an inventory of life support and food supplys, NOW!  (PA) Astrogator,
lay to the bridge!  (PA)  All hands, this is the Captain.  Now, there's
no need to panic, but ...'

OTOH, it may be a matter of future discovery of additional J-spaces,
with accidental access near G-wells ...

> 
> I would immagine that if it were possible, Grandfather would have learned
> how to control it and therefore would have achieved a stable J-36.  Someone
> with the adventure(I think its Secret of the Ancients), can you tell us
> whether or not Grandfather's Jump Gates (IIRC he had some of these in his
> Pocket Universe) were more than J-6?

IIRC, Grandfather's pocket universe in SotA was only about 3 parsecs
across, and the portals were J-1 with a normal 1-week delay.  I don't
remember any info about portal use outside the pocket universe.  I'll
see if I can dig it up.

	Matt McL



	Matt 
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> http://www.datasync.com/~tiger
> 
>

------------------------------

From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 16:17:52 EDT
Subject: Ultra-tech battle

hello out there
     The recent discussion of high tech warfare in traveller got me thinking. w
hat would a battle of two TL-12+ armies be like.  A Ultra-tech battle would hav
e no front lines, only strong point and roving collumns of contra-grav armor.
     At TL-12+ every AFV is contra-grav with speeds of 500+ km/h, with enduran
ces of 20 hours+ (flying tanks).  To stop grav-tanks across a wide front would
require more equipment and men then most armies could even think of fielding.
Also their is no way to keep the emeny from going around behind you, no geograp
hic feature can slow, let alone stop a contra-grav mobile army.  Add to this gr
av-tanks can go into orbit and come down behind you, and warship can drop battl
e dress troops anywhere in your rear.  The General effect in my oppion is the t
he countuies front line will be dead.
   A TL-12 armies will defend only what they have to.  Armies will make strong
points around important areas they want to defended, the captial, a deep sit ma
son gun, a star port, a city.  The main defender of these cities will be foot
soldiers, backed up by heavy weapons,(rapid fire point defense laser, and tank
issiles,etc), and covered by a heavy mason screen.
     From these strong points the defenders armor column will salley forth to d
o battle.  A battle between two contra-grav columns could easly cover hundreds
 of miles.  These armored columns will attemt to distory the emeny armor, or re
duce the enemy strongs points.
     With mason guns there will be no safe on a planet from arty.  Deep sites o
r "feild artilary" will able to hit targets on the back side of the planet.  Ba
cking up the mason fire, brilliant guided missles, adn possibly thousands of du
mb hyper-sonice missle.  On the TL-12 battle arty will seen death every where o
n the planet.

   Now picture if you will you average PCs on a simple cargo run into a
   utrla-tech war zone:
 "This is the Imperial warship Justice to free trader Baywatch:  you are cleare
d to land at the main down port.  Be advised that if you leave the safe lane
our automate air defence will open fire on you.  OH, by the way the enemy has a
 200000mj mason gun we've not take out yet.  We lost 3 close escort To it today
.  Oh, yes keep an eye out for enemy grav-tank, there is a battle going on 1000
km to the north of the port, some of the bugger might slipp throught.  And one
last think I would recommend off loading quickly, the enemy keeps firing hyper-
missle wave at the port, a few got trought last time.
                                       Thank you enjoy your stay"

     tank you and good night
               David Nelson

            "It's O.K. were staff"

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:31:26 -0400
Subject: More errors in T4

        I sent mail to IG about this, but thought maybe someone here might
know something about this.
        While running T4 last Friday night, the characters wanted to buy
armor. Reasonable, I suppose. While scanning the armor descriptions and
wondering about the removal of such long standing stalwarts as Mesh, Cloth
and even Combat Armor, I discovered a disturbing fact; some of the
descriptions fail to tell how much the armor costs. Diplo Armor is the major
case of this. This combined with the large amount of white space on page 80
leads me to beleive that an Armor Table must have been missing. The curious
thing is, mesh armor is mentioned in the combat examples, but is nowhere to
be found in the book! Anyone care to confirm or deny the presence of a
missing table on page 80? Anyone (like maybe Greg Porter) want to supply us
with costs and weights for the armors that are in the book, as well as more
"traditional"
Traveller armors?
                        Allen 

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

Derek Stanley writes:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > I seem to recall that more than half the states in the US have a town
> > named "Salem". And there are several "Portland"s. And of course the
> > pernnial problem here in the Northwest: Vancouver. Do you nean the town
> > in Washington, the city in BC, or the Island in BC?
> 
> The great urban legend up here in Vancouver BC was that we'd get mail 
> destined for the Vancouver a mere 150 or so miles to the south in 
> Washington State.  8)
> 
> I wonder who the fool was who decided to name the second Vancouver...

The "fool" was Canadian Pacific Railway Vice-President William Van Horne.

He suggested the name to honor the English sailor Capt. George Vancouver,
who was one of the first white explorers in the area (circa 1792.) The
provincial legislature incorporated the town of Vancouver (British Columbia)
on April 6, 1886.

The town of Vancouver (Washington state, in the U.S.A.) had already been
incorporated for almost 30 years (it was incorporated on Jan. 23, 1857.)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:51:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

David A. Nelson wrote:
> 
> hello out there
>      The recent discussion of high tech warfare in traveller got me thinking. w
> hat would a battle of two TL-12+ armies be like.  A Ultra-tech battle would hav
> e no front lines, only strong point and roving collumns of contra-grav armor.

Just think of the FASA _Renagade Legion_ universe with its grav tanks.

Not to mention assorted civilians -- both friendly and enemy -- and possibly stay-behind 
troops. The latter would be a small team in an air raft armed with lotsa antiarmor 
missiles. Mission: to locate and attrit lightly-armored supply columns, not to fight 
MBTs.  


>      At TL-12+ every AFV is contra-grav with speeds of 500+ km/h, with enduran
> ces of 20 hours+ (flying tanks).  To stop grav-tanks across a wide front would
> require more equipment and men then most armies could even think of fielding.

Yep, the "PAK front" as we know and love it is not going to work. Nor is the NATO 
concept of the 3,000-meter battlefield (PAK front with ATGM). 

One historical model that comes to mind for maneuver warfare is that of the Mongols. 
Keep on the move, strike hard, don't let the enemy catch you. Mobility, not terrain, is 
your defense.

> Also their is no way to keep the emeny from going around behind you, no geograp
> hic feature can slow, let alone stop a contra-grav mobile army.  Add to this gr
> av-tanks can go into orbit and come down behind you, and warship can drop battl
> e dress troops anywhere in your rear.  The General effect in my oppion is the t
> he countuies front line will be dead.
>    A TL-12 armies will defend only what they have to.  Armies will make strong
> points around important areas they want to defended, the captial, a deep sit ma
> son gun, a star port, a city.  The main defender of these cities will be foot
> soldiers, backed up by heavy weapons,(rapid fire point defense laser, and tank
> issiles,etc), and covered by a heavy mason screen.
>      From these strong points the defenders armor column will salley forth to d
> o battle.  A battle between two contra-grav columns could easly cover hundreds
>  of miles.  These armored columns will attemt to distory the emeny armor, or re
> duce the enemy strongs points.
>      With mason guns there will be no safe on a planet from arty.  Deep sites o
> r "feild artilary" will able to hit targets on the back side of the planet.  Ba
> cking up the mason fire, brilliant guided missles, adn possibly thousands of du
> mb hyper-sonice missle.  On the TL-12 battle arty will seen death every where o
> n the planet.
> 
>    Now picture if you will you average PCs on a simple cargo run into a
>    utrla-tech war zone:
>  "This is the Imperial warship Justice to free trader Baywatch:  you are cleare
> d to land at the main down port.  Be advised that if you leave the safe lane
> our automate air defence will open fire on you.  OH, by the way the enemy has a
>  200000mj mason gun we've not take out yet.  We lost 3 close escort To it today
> .  Oh, yes keep an eye out for enemy grav-tank, there is a battle going on 1000
> km to the north of the port, some of the bugger might slipp throught.  And one
> last think I would recommend off loading quickly, the enemy keeps firing hyper-
> missle wave at the port, a few got trought last time.
>                                        Thank you enjoy your stay"
> 
>      tank you and good night
>                David Nelson
> 
>             "It's O.K. were staff"


Gee, tanks for the memories:)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 17:14:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

On 09/08/96 at 11:17 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>But the prize for a Free Trader is finding a *three* cornered run. Point A
>has somethiong that point B wants. Point B has something that point C
>wants, and C has something that A wants. Get an intitial cargo at A, and
>follow the route A->B->C->A... and you'll make lots of money. 

Ah yes, the Triangle Trade!  Turn sugar to rum to slaves.  It made the
Nor'easters rich.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:39:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Trade

I said:
>>         I always thought the "cargo availability" stuff was a bit awkward.
>> If I land on an industrial world of a 100 million people, shouldn't I be
>> able to find just about any industrial good I want?  If there are people
> >out there who want to buy things but can't because of shortages, you've
> >got a pretty inefficient economy.  On really small or low-tech worlds the
> >system makes a bit more sense, but not many worlds are _that_ small.

Leonard said:
>Node. Stop and consider. If you take a freighter to Japan, *sure* you
>can buy enough cars to fill it for a trip back to the States. But
>unless you can buy them *cheap*, you'll lose your shirt, because you
>can't sell them as cheaply as the guys who have the big car carriers,
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and contracts with the manufacturers
>It's not a matter of *efficiency*, it's a case of the market already
>being "taken".          ^^^^^^^^^

	My turn to say "nope."  The reason you can't "sell them as 
cheaply" is because you are not as _efficient_.  Contractual 
arrangements, large orders, etc. are all forms of transactional 
efficiency just as real as the operating costs of your ship.  If you 
_could_ sell the cars more cheaply than the other guy, you could quickly 
take the market from _him_.

>The sort of thing all the trade tables I've seen are intended for is
>"speculative trade". That's the "temporary market/supply" bit. In this
>sort of trade, all cargoes are pretty much one-shot. Say, for example,
>you are in Yokohama and find out that there's a lot of 100 or so cars
>available because of a last minute change in an order from America
>(some order for a corporate fleet "bumped" the cars off the ship, and
>made them "surplus").

	I can accept this as a motivation for the cargo availability 
tables.  In fact, this even makes a good deal of sense.  
	What it does _not_ address is the situation when ships on the
order of Subsidized Merchants and Free Traders are the regular conduits of
trade for a particular world.  This may be because the world has only been
recently recontacted, because it is off major trade routes, or just too
small.  In such a situation, these small ships are the most efficient
around and will not be "beaten out" in the attempt to get good cargoes. 
They should be able to have their pick, if that is, they can pay enough 
to make it worth the while of the natives to trade. They will be able to 
pay if there are enough unexploited trading opportunities out there so 
that they can cover the extra cost and more.

>If you've got room to haul them, you might happen
>to know that some place in Africa or South America that normally gets
>cars "thru" some other country would pay high prices for them, and
>they'd likely have something (ore, spices, fruits, handcrafted stuff)
>that you can sell somewhere else.

	This is another problem with the trade tables.  According to 
them, if you happened to pick up the above load of automobiles in a place 
like Japan, the best place to sell them would be a place like the U.S. 
(Rich, Industrial, High Pop).  What it should say, as you point out, is 
that the best place to sell them would be some place where the demand for 
cars is not directly met by the big, highly efficient corporate 
shippers.  
	This is why I proposed the trade goods price mods for location
(Core, Frontier, Deeps).  A more complicated system would extend the mods
to worlds which would be exceptions to those rules.  A high pop world on
an important main in the Frontier is likely to have very good price levels
while a runt world in the Core may have poorer ones. 

>But we need *long term* trade tables,
<snip>
>But the long term stuff isn't much fun for most players, except when
>they are *establishing* the trade, or trying to salvage the pieces
>after a change.
>On the other hand, it is something the *refs* would really like to
>have. It gives you a better idea of how the planets interrelate.

	Right.  I have been trying to describe how the Year 0 
interstellar economy would function and how small fry like PCs might fit 
into it.  Trade _tables_ is not how I would do it, I would describe trade 
_flows_ , probably in fairly broad terms (industrial, consumer, 
agricultural, materials, etc.)  These would be less vulnerable to 
change.  Lewis, Paul, and I are currently trying to do this on a much 
smaller scale in the RC.


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:04:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Advanced Character Generation Rules

On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > 
> > > SO[R]AG I was disappointed in, but the other two are pretty good.
> > 
> > Maybe that's why I didn't buy it.  Looked at it and put it back, I'll bet.
> 
> I did...and I _loved_ it. Here in No. California, it is a mark of distinction among 
> long-term Traveller fans to have the Paranoia Press supplements in their bag 'o tricks. 
> Especially SORAG! 
> 
> However, in a fit of despairation (out of work and all that), I sold my copy at a 
> game-con auction (along with the original STRIKER and other goodies I now wish I had).

   I have some stuff left, still - including Striker. No longer have SORAG
though - someone already grabbed it. Check my webpage.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #399
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